It's crazy that Edd warned that fellow beforehand and even refused to rent him a boat knowing what his plan was. You really can't save some people from themselves.
I had a friend when I was at University who refused to wear their seatbelt when in a car, once me and another friend were carpooling with him and we told him either you wear your belt or get out of the car and he reluctantly put it on. Literally the very next week we found out he'd died in a car crash over the weekend. So yeah I agree you really can't save some people from themselves and that sucks.
That must have been rough, I can only imagine. I'm reminded of a quote that goes "experience is a difficult teacher. She gives the test first, and the lesson last."
Edd Sorenson has inspired me to start getting clean from drugs and turn my life around. I'm still in active addiction, but I'm chemically dependant and can not function without the drug I am addicted to, but I am wheening off. It's a process, but I'm doing it. Thank you, Mr.Sorenson, you saved my life. I've been in active addiction for over 20 years. It's very difficult. But I'm doing it. I don't care who says "oh this is way too personal to share on youtube" because I'm happy enough to say it, I'm ready to say it, and I'm ready to move passed it. Thank you, Edd. Thank you.
We need to get more people to see these videos with Edd. Being properly trained to caved is the only way to do it, this cowboy mentality has to stop. Thank you both for making this video.
Thats really sad... he tried so hard to save a friend but he just wouldnt listen.. i feel bad for Ed, but i really appreciate him for sharing that heartbreaking story
I am a very experienced diver, I've gone into dark environments I've been in low visibility I've been in bad weather, I was even in a whirl hole one time that ran me around in a circle I felt like I was in a washing machine, but I never ever have been in a cave. I was at Crystal River in Florida one time right off my hotel area we had a boat and I was diving and I went into an overhead environment and I did not like it at all and when I couldn't see up and see the sun I wanted out of there so fast it was not funny. To me cave diving is three levels more than the most dangerous open water dive I've ever done It's just a level of danger that I just cannot comprehend wanting to put myself into. I have all the respect in the world for the guys that do cave diving, even when I watch these videos I actually shake it upsets me so much listening to them talk about no visibility You're in a tube that's this big You're in a restricted environment You can't turn around I mean my God this is the makings of a horror movie for me. I'm glad there's people like Edd That's proficient in cave diving and if a rescue needs to be done he can go do it but if I'm going to drown I'm going to be able to drown going to the surface not stuck in a cave.
God bless Ed for all the rescues/recoveries he’s taken part in over the years. And thank you Jonathan for educating us all in so many ways. Great work as usual guys.
Good old Bill Rennaker. Got my full cave certification from him back in the 1990s. I strongly suspected he privately thought I was the worst cavediving student he ever had, but he persevered and I'm still alive. Very generous guy.
There is something at the very start of this story that puts Edd apart from others, he mentions early on the person passed away, even if at that point in the story it was still a rescue. Its shows he does not want to milk this story or create tension etc but instead to tell a very tragic story in the hope others will listen and avoid further deaths. What is coming through in these stories and I have also seen this in the Alps, even if the cave diving and the Alps seem so far apart, people assess their ability to cope on good conditions, they never think about what could be the absolutely worse conditions, be it zero visibility a line break, or a storm in the Alps, are they skilled and equipped to manage the absolute worse conditions? Since worse conditions come seldom people often get in to false sense of security as each time they come through, but its only needs to happen once! That is was expert training gives you the ability to manage the worse conditions and also asses you are ready for them. I feel its a privilege to listen to Edd, what a gentleman and hero thanks so much blue world for this second channel and also the very respectful and educational way you deal with these tragic stories so others can learn.
I hope that Edd has an couple of rescue cave diving apprentices that he is training and shares all of his experience with, hate to see this kind of expertise be lost when he gets too old.
Love Edd's stories especially seeing I'm not a diver. Edd's a true blessing to the Cave Diving Community. A True American Badass, Thanks Blue World and Edd for these stories
It’s so cool to hear these stories. Edd is a great story teller. It’s interesting, if you pay attention to his breathing its pattern is affected from diving so much. Very deep inhale all the way down to the diaphram. Very controlled slow exhale even when speaking
4 месяца назад+3
Thank you for sharing this story. Sadly such complacency is quite common also in "plain" OWD. And comes usually in two forms - pseudo time-experience "I ´ve been diving before your mother could walk" ... or newly graduated "I have passed test, I am invincble". Unfortunately, the attitude is quite similar - pre dive cheks? - boring, pre dive planning - not needed, I know this place. Safety procedure briefing? What for ? .... and then they inflate their BCD in 20 meters (65 ft) and fly away to inspect Sputnik... Just a few days ago I talked to fresh OWD colleague (basic owd) and he was bragging how he and his buddy - also basic owd - went alone to 56 meters (183 ft) - how cool is that? He expected acknowledgement and tap on the back. I just asked him, whether he has his will completed, coffin selected and other arangements made. At first it made me quite mad, and I tried to explain, the dangers, to persuade ... but same as this sad story - I was talking to a wall ... At the end it made me sad, as it is not the first nor the last encounter with such negligence. I am not an instructor, or dive master to feel responsible for him, but still I see it a bit as my failure - failure to explain the need for training and rules ... explain that others died so that we do not have to ... As a part of diving community, I somewhat feel the urge to pass my tiny bit to others. I think we all should take care of each other. Being a recreational OWD diver, I have almost no experience, but I feel lucky, that mine instructor is really demanding and till this day he takes time with me to drill basic and advanced procedures ( now we have quite fun), and he always has time to discuss anything dive related and to probe my theoretical knowledge when we meet. Always comes with some tricky question. In my oppinion diving is safe sport, if diver has appropriate training, obeys rules and dives with humility and awe. There is so much to see even in 20 meters. For me each dive is full of wonders and tranquility, I feel almost spiritually cleansed after each dive.
Man, the hubris of the victim.. get in Edd Sorenson's face and say you've been in zero visibility that would make him, Edd, cry? That's astonishing. Astonishing!
I know you are joking but seriously...cave diving is fun and cool and crazy dangerous if you aren't trained. Go to Edd and get trained by the Jedi Master!!!!
There is a need and responsibility for someone to make a movie about Edd and he needs to be in the movie and the world needs to actually see what a true life hero and legend that Edd is. All the cave divers that enjoy this sport should here about his life and all he's done. There are many greats that came before Edd and that will come after, but this sport should be treated like any other, so the cave divers, especially the younger ones that don't have the proper training, can learn why it's so very important to be cave certified. Edd has saved so many lives and recovered lost lives and doesn't hesitate or turn down a call to bring home either a deceased or trapped diver back home to families all over the world. It would be such an amazing film to make and movie based on true life stories, to watch and for so many divers to enjoy! As well as showing the world about every aspect of cave diving and most of all, to showcase the legend and real life hero Edd is. He doesn't get paid to do these recoveries as far as I know. I'm sure he gets some plane tickets and maybe room and food for coming but mist cases it seems it's all done on his dime and from his heart and most if all the live fir the sport and wanting all divers to be properly trained to cave dive. Edd is the GOAT! THANK YOU FROM TENNESSEE EDD. I know you did a recovery here in Jacksonville TENNESSEE😊 ❤May God always keep you safe 🙏🏻
Edd is a national treasure, and divers ignore his advice at their true peril. I have my advanced open water cert, I am nitrox and trimix certified, and I have experience with wreck diving, but I leave the caves to the pros- there is simply no room for error, and it's too much risk for me! When it comes to ANY sort of diving, but particularly in caving and technical diving, your ego is not your amigo- leave it on the dock and operate with a clear, focused mind or else you might end up the subject of one of Edd's stories!
You know how people can get so scared that they pass out? That is probably what happens sometimes in a trapped, no vis condition. Probably how he died. Fainted and lost his reg.
Edd has a good example here of why its a bad idea to successfully break the rules. If you get away with it once, twice, you'll normalize it, think 'that won't happen to me, I know what I'm doing' and eventually tune out all the risks. And then this happens.
Im only an open water diver, I do a lot of free driving in the lil caves we have around here (chassy, FL) but if I ever decided to be a cave diver, Ed would be my emergency contact..lol
34 years ago I did deep mixed gas diving with the late great Tom Mount. His first lesson was ‘a man must know his limitations’ (Dirty Harry). My fear is overhead diving. I’ll go to 300ft but not 30Ft down a tunnel. God Bless you Edd.
Re-reading the comments an expression comes to mind from the base jumping community, which I think is relevant even for cave diving. When you start out you have two jars, the first jar is luck and that is full, the second jar is skill and experience and that's empty. As you continue your activities that jar of luck is going to keep going down and down, but unless you put in the effort your jar of skill will not. You need to ensure you are filling up that jar of skill, by training courses, listening to experts etc . At some point your jar of luck will become empty and if you haven't filled up your jar of skill, well that empty jar will be your life, empty as you will have no life its gone!
Anybody else find it odd that the guy tried to rent from Edd AFTER he told Edd off? What a strange mentality to be gruff with someone then try to use their services to do what they told you not to do.
i do listen to ed almost all day.. don't want to appear a stalker.. i do however have an interesting reason i do, i was transplanted to N.M. desert at age 5.. but i would have been raised on the gulf if my parents would not have migrated.. so ed reminds me of all the dreams of playing in the water and all the things i may have learned had i not became a lumberjack.. mountain girl.I want to go to jackson county and meet you edd.. i wish to meet your wife also.. i dream of you talking me into learning to dive.. but you tube and all the horror videos..have formed a sort of PTSD.. around my brave adventuresome soul.. but it would not take much for that deep voice to persuade me.. and those aging bwell arms.. to promise to drag me out of a cave if I should freak out and fail..Edd you are truly a brave spirit among the herds.. i hope you do not meet your doom underwater doing what you love.. nope.. cant have that. its like me being eaten by a shark when as a young kid my mother had no restrictions on me as to how far i could swim out on the padre island gulf area.. we vacationed there a lot.. i have also been blessed to have been fishing in florida.. many moons ago.apalachecola ? and in the keys,well take care Senor Sorenson.. till we meet someday.. .
How come no one has come up with a high frequency beacon for caving to at least aid in body recovery? We got 5ghz nowadays that should have usable range inside a cave.
@@BlueWorldplus they do just not well. inside a small tight cave with zero visibility a beacon can at least help locate a person within a few hundred feet. my mistake is that low freq travels better. There is also LORA WAN modules now that are inexpensive ($15), automatic signal repeaters for intranet. They can work down to 2m band which will propagate several hundred feet in saltwater with 10w, common handheld radio power levels. combined with LoRa module attached to a guide line a quarter mile is feasible.
Just one thing. This guy had to know who Edd is..he talked to him. This is his dive site from what I can tell so if I’m in that cave even if I really shouldn’t be and my partner said he was getting help why panic that much? I just don’t get it. Even if it’s no Edd himself coming it’s most likely someone who Edd trained right?
Mixed feelings. Plenty of cave/wreck diving death videos on YT of fully "certified" cave/wreck divers dying. Some of those got stuck too, even after all that "training".
R.I.P I'm Sorry but these people are so selfish, They leave their own family behind and people like Edd have to go in and get them, It can't be fun going in retrieving someone you know. It's so sad. Just get certified I don't know what the problem is.
It's crazy that Edd warned that fellow beforehand and even refused to rent him a boat knowing what his plan was. You really can't save some people from themselves.
So true.
I have never dived in my life, but stumbled upon a video of Edd here on RUclips. Now I can’t get enough of his stories.
I had a friend when I was at University who refused to wear their seatbelt when in a car, once me and another friend were carpooling with him and we told him either you wear your belt or get out of the car and he reluctantly put it on. Literally the very next week we found out he'd died in a car crash over the weekend. So yeah I agree you really can't save some people from themselves and that sucks.
That must have been rough, I can only imagine. I'm reminded of a quote that goes "experience is a difficult teacher. She gives the test first, and the lesson last."
Oh i will remember that one!great saying...
Imagine not listening to cave diving advice from Edd Sorenson. How sad for the man's family 😢
Edd Sorenson has inspired me to start getting clean from drugs and turn my life around. I'm still in active addiction, but I'm chemically dependant and can not function without the drug I am addicted to, but I am wheening off. It's a process, but I'm doing it. Thank you, Mr.Sorenson, you saved my life. I've been in active addiction for over 20 years. It's very difficult. But I'm doing it. I don't care who says "oh this is way too personal to share on youtube" because I'm happy enough to say it, I'm ready to say it, and I'm ready to move passed it. Thank you, Edd. Thank you.
Keep going in your journey-you will get there❤
Im 23 yrs sober.
We need to get more people to see these videos with Edd. Being properly trained to caved is the only way to do it, this cowboy mentality has to stop. Thank you both for making this video.
Another chest beater huh? SMH
@@donraptor6156 how is encouraging proper training chest beating? I’m confused by your statement.
Most fatalities nowadays are trained cave divers.
I love hearing Ed's stories. There's a very good reason the rescued people call him The Black and Chrome Angel.
I could listen to him all day.
I say this every time I see Edd in a video, but I love that man. Definitely a hero and super humble.
Thats really sad... he tried so hard to save a friend but he just wouldnt listen.. i feel bad for Ed, but i really appreciate him for sharing that heartbreaking story
Ed is one of the unsung hero's, that not to many people know, bless him💙
This is the type of story the dive community needs.
So blessed to have found this second channel, Johnathon. Edd is a treasure and appreciated. So are you, sir.
Thanks for being here!
Ego will get you every time….
Just take Edd’s storytelling and inject it directly into my veins. Riveting stuff.
I think I’ve heard most of these stories from one interview or another, but love hearing them again!
Yeah Edd needs to rescue a few more people so we can get some more stories!!!!
Edd is the real deal. Love to hear him tell stories.
I am a very experienced diver, I've gone into dark environments I've been in low visibility I've been in bad weather, I was even in a whirl hole one time that ran me around in a circle I felt like I was in a washing machine, but I never ever have been in a cave. I was at Crystal River in Florida one time right off my hotel area we had a boat and I was diving and I went into an overhead environment and I did not like it at all and when I couldn't see up and see the sun I wanted out of there so fast it was not funny. To me cave diving is three levels more than the most dangerous open water dive I've ever done It's just a level of danger that I just cannot comprehend wanting to put myself into. I have all the respect in the world for the guys that do cave diving, even when I watch these videos I actually shake it upsets me so much listening to them talk about no visibility You're in a tube that's this big You're in a restricted environment You can't turn around I mean my God this is the makings of a horror movie for me. I'm glad there's people like Edd That's proficient in cave diving and if a rescue needs to be done he can go do it but if I'm going to drown I'm going to be able to drown going to the surface not stuck in a cave.
God bless Ed for all the rescues/recoveries he’s taken part in over the years. And thank you Jonathan for educating us all in so many ways. Great work as usual guys.
Good old Bill Rennaker. Got my full cave certification from him back in the 1990s.
I strongly suspected he privately thought I was the worst cavediving student he ever had, but he persevered and I'm still alive.
Very generous guy.
There is something at the very start of this story that puts Edd apart from others, he mentions early on the person passed away, even if at that point in the story it was still a rescue. Its shows he does not want to milk this story or create tension etc but instead to tell a very tragic story in the hope others will listen and avoid further deaths. What is coming through in these stories and I have also seen this in the Alps, even if the cave diving and the Alps seem so far apart, people assess their ability to cope on good conditions, they never think about what could be the absolutely worse conditions, be it zero visibility a line break, or a storm in the Alps, are they skilled and equipped to manage the absolute worse conditions? Since worse conditions come seldom people often get in to false sense of security as each time they come through, but its only needs to happen once! That is was expert training gives you the ability to manage the worse conditions and also asses you are ready for them. I feel its a privilege to listen to Edd, what a gentleman and hero thanks so much blue world for this second channel and also the very respectful and educational way you deal with these tragic stories so others can learn.
I hope that Edd has an couple of rescue cave diving apprentices that he is training and shares all of his experience with, hate to see this kind of expertise be lost when he gets too old.
This guy is the best rescue/recovery diver in the entire world!
Edd’s the Michael Jordan of cave diving! Thanks for the awesome video work Jonathan( & Todd)!
We want more Ed stories! I love the cool chill scenery.
Love Edd's stories especially seeing I'm not a diver. Edd's a true blessing to the Cave Diving Community. A True American Badass, Thanks Blue World and Edd for these stories
Such a tragic story. Wasn't expecting that.
Short but powerful video! Sadly some people only learn the hard way. Good that Edd refused him.
It’s so cool to hear these stories. Edd is a great story teller. It’s interesting, if you pay attention to his breathing its pattern is affected from diving so much. Very deep inhale all the way down to the diaphram. Very controlled slow exhale even when speaking
Thank you for sharing this story. Sadly such complacency is quite common also in "plain" OWD. And comes usually in two forms - pseudo time-experience "I ´ve been diving before your mother could walk" ... or newly graduated "I have passed test, I am invincble". Unfortunately, the attitude is quite similar - pre dive cheks? - boring, pre dive planning - not needed, I know this place. Safety procedure briefing? What for ? .... and then they inflate their BCD in 20 meters (65 ft) and fly away to inspect Sputnik...
Just a few days ago I talked to fresh OWD colleague (basic owd) and he was bragging how he and his buddy - also basic owd - went alone to 56 meters (183 ft) - how cool is that? He expected acknowledgement and tap on the back. I just asked him, whether he has his will completed, coffin selected and other arangements made. At first it made me quite mad, and I tried to explain, the dangers, to persuade ... but same as this sad story - I was talking to a wall ...
At the end it made me sad, as it is not the first nor the last encounter with such negligence. I am not an instructor, or dive master to feel responsible for him, but still I see it a bit as my failure - failure to explain the need for training and rules ... explain that others died so that we do not have to ... As a part of diving community, I somewhat feel the urge to pass my tiny bit to others. I think we all should take care of each other.
Being a recreational OWD diver, I have almost no experience, but I feel lucky, that mine instructor is really demanding and till this day he takes time with me to drill basic and advanced procedures ( now we have quite fun), and he always has time to discuss anything dive related and to probe my theoretical knowledge when we meet. Always comes with some tricky question.
In my oppinion diving is safe sport, if diver has appropriate training, obeys rules and dives with humility and awe. There is so much to see even in 20 meters. For me each dive is full of wonders and tranquility, I feel almost spiritually cleansed after each dive.
Very important message and example why you should get training. Thanks.
Eds one of a kind
Man, the hubris of the victim.. get in Edd Sorenson's face and say you've been in zero visibility that would make him, Edd, cry? That's astonishing. Astonishing!
Did everything in his power to save this guy's life. Guy was determined to die in that cave.
I've binge watched all Edd cave rescue stories and feel myself cave certified with only few dives in Cancun!
I know you are joking but seriously...cave diving is fun and cool and crazy dangerous if you aren't trained. Go to Edd and get trained by the Jedi Master!!!!
“A Cave Diver is a Bubble of Light gliding thru a Nightmare”
‘Alexander'
LOL
There is a need and responsibility for someone to make a movie about Edd and he needs to be in the movie and the world needs to actually see what a true life hero and legend that Edd is. All the cave divers that enjoy this sport should here about his life and all he's done. There are many greats that came before Edd and that will come after, but this sport should be treated like any other, so the cave divers, especially the younger ones that don't have the proper training, can learn why it's so very important to be cave certified. Edd has saved so many lives and recovered lost lives and doesn't hesitate or turn down a call to bring home either a deceased or trapped diver back home to families all over the world. It would be such an amazing film to make and movie based on true life stories, to watch and for so many divers to enjoy! As well as showing the world about every aspect of cave diving and most of all, to showcase the legend and real life hero Edd is. He doesn't get paid to do these recoveries as far as I know. I'm sure he gets some plane tickets and maybe room and food for coming but mist cases it seems it's all done on his dime and from his heart and most if all the live fir the sport and wanting all divers to be properly trained to cave dive.
Edd is the GOAT! THANK YOU FROM TENNESSEE EDD. I know you did a recovery here in Jacksonville TENNESSEE😊 ❤May God always keep you safe 🙏🏻
Edd is a national treasure, and divers ignore his advice at their true peril. I have my advanced open water cert, I am nitrox and trimix certified, and I have experience with wreck diving, but I leave the caves to the pros- there is simply no room for error, and it's too much risk for me! When it comes to ANY sort of diving, but particularly in caving and technical diving, your ego is not your amigo- leave it on the dock and operate with a clear, focused mind or else you might end up the subject of one of Edd's stories!
He's awesome!
I got my OW cert about 6 months and have been diving at Merritt mill pond but I will not go in the caves
What a sad tale.
You know how people can get so scared that they pass out? That is probably what happens sometimes in a trapped, no vis condition. Probably how he died. Fainted and lost his reg.
Possible.
So, "I told you so" is applicable..
Edd has a good example here of why its a bad idea to successfully break the rules. If you get away with it once, twice, you'll normalize it, think 'that won't happen to me, I know what I'm doing' and eventually tune out all the risks. And then this happens.
Exactly.
Im only an open water diver, I do a lot of free driving in the lil caves we have around here (chassy, FL) but if I ever decided to be a cave diver, Ed would be my emergency contact..lol
34 years ago I did deep mixed gas diving with the late great Tom Mount. His first lesson was ‘a man must know his limitations’ (Dirty Harry). My fear is overhead diving. I’ll go to 300ft but not 30Ft down a tunnel. God Bless you Edd.
Re-reading the comments an expression comes to mind from the base jumping community, which I think is relevant even for cave diving. When you start out you have two jars, the first jar is luck and that is full, the second jar is skill and experience and that's empty. As you continue your activities that jar of luck is going to keep going down and down, but unless you put in the effort your jar of skill will not. You need to ensure you are filling up that jar of skill, by training courses, listening to experts etc . At some point your jar of luck will become empty and if you haven't filled up your jar of skill, well that empty jar will be your life, empty as you will have no life its gone!
Anybody else find it odd that the guy tried to rent from Edd AFTER he told Edd off? What a strange mentality to be gruff with someone then try to use their services to do what they told you not to do.
Was asking for it
When things go wrong call Edd I pry I never need him
i do listen to ed almost all day.. don't want to appear a stalker.. i do however have an interesting reason i do, i was transplanted to N.M. desert at age 5.. but i would have been raised on the gulf if my parents would not have migrated.. so ed reminds me of all the dreams of playing in the water and all the things i may have learned had i not became a lumberjack.. mountain girl.I want to go to jackson county and meet you edd.. i wish to meet your wife also.. i dream of you talking me into learning to dive.. but you tube and all the horror videos..have formed a sort of PTSD.. around my brave adventuresome soul.. but it would not take much for that deep voice to persuade me.. and those aging bwell arms.. to promise to drag me out of a cave if I should freak out and fail..Edd you are truly a brave spirit among the herds.. i hope you do not meet your doom underwater doing what you love.. nope.. cant have that. its like me being eaten by a shark when as a young kid my mother had no restrictions on me as to how far i could swim out on the padre island gulf area.. we vacationed there a lot.. i have also been blessed to have been fishing in florida.. many moons ago.apalachecola ? and in the keys,well take care Senor Sorenson.. till we meet someday.. .
Start with a scuba class! It's fun!
0:27 And I got back there... (Long Pause) He was already deceased! (Roll Credits)
Yeah, he got to the important part fast.
About the tanks , I would have told the lutenat to kiss my back side , He is welcome to go get the tanks .
LOL!
Ego will get you killed or someone else.
How come no one has come up with a high frequency beacon for caving to at least aid in body recovery? We got 5ghz nowadays that should have usable range inside a cave.
Radio waves do not penetrate water. You have to do it with ultrasonic sound waves.
@@BlueWorldplus they do just not well. inside a small tight cave with zero visibility a beacon can at least help locate a person within a few hundred feet. my mistake is that low freq travels better. There is also LORA WAN modules now that are inexpensive ($15), automatic signal repeaters for intranet. They can work down to 2m band which will propagate several hundred feet in saltwater with 10w, common handheld radio power levels. combined with LoRa module attached to a guide line a quarter mile is feasible.
In The End He Know Exactly What Happend And It Happened...😟
Yeah, he saw that one coming. People who try to cave dive without the right training, equipment and most important mindset end up dead.
Wow what a horribly sad story. Why don't people listen to the experts? I just don't get it.
Just one thing. This guy had to know who Edd is..he talked to him. This is his dive site from what I can tell so if I’m in that cave even if I really shouldn’t be and my partner said he was getting help why panic that much? I just don’t get it. Even if it’s no Edd himself coming it’s most likely someone who Edd trained right?
Mixed feelings. Plenty of cave/wreck diving death videos on YT of fully "certified" cave/wreck divers dying. Some of those got stuck too, even after all that "training".
R.I.P I'm Sorry but these people are so selfish,
They leave their own family behind and people like Edd have to go in and get them,
It can't be fun going in retrieving someone you know.
It's so sad.
Just get certified I don't know what the problem is.
What a senseless loss, esp with prior warning. Sad but predictable.
That’s sad to listen to.
Stories like this always are.
Train hard fight Easy Edd but some people just don't get it.
You can't fix stupid.
+