"Pro/Rel would destroy Soccer in the USA"
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- Опубликовано: 16 сен 2024
- Pro/Rel is a super controversial topic within US Soccer, MLS and USL. So today we will bring two guests @SimpleCoachTV and @BatteredHerons to make their cases against Promotion and Relegation.
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Great job Tac bringing in the opposing view and holding your ground on pro/rel. I appreciate your willingness to foster this debate and air the opposing perspective. I really feel that at the end of the vid, your guests were making your points for you, as you highlighted in real time. I really like the way you engage with your guests, emphasizing points of agreement, and then getting into the differences. Really an enjoyable listen. Thanks Tac and Dustin.
Not so sure I was making his point for him, but thanks for listening.
Great job, Filippo! You and your guests were clear and brought great points to the "debate". This is the model of how it should be done. I think that, as host, you did a great job of asking good questions, allowing your guests enough time to answer, and responding with counterpoints.
Could not agree more. Filippo was outstanding. As was Daniel.
True. But he doesn't ever change his mind. I don't know if Filippo will ever see the light.
The notion that if you're talented you'll be found in a country of 340 million, is nonsense. If you have a local club in almost every city every talented kid can find a club to develop initially, be sold up to better bigger clubs. We would find so much unfound talent. They would be funnelled up the pyramid to the top because they will be found and quickly moved up. The current structure doesn't support that anywhere close. This would align the incentives for anyone to find a talented kid and be paid to do so. This isn't hard.
Don't forget that because of paid football schools in the US, soccer is mostly middle class sport with Latin American ethnic groups addition. In Brazil the middle class sends children to racing schools, and poor children are trying to become a footballer and change their life dramatically fast. When most of players are middle class - they have more chances to go to college, and become a lawyer/Deloitte consulting specialist, than footballer. So, actually, it was a good argument.
Europe has spent decades growing soccer culture over there. Pro rep happened naturally over there. You can’t start something like that expect it to be successful in a country where soccer culture is just starting to grow. Also I prefer the playoff system over the point system in Europe. I like how it gives a chance to teams that get hot later in the season. I also like having a Championship game at the end.
USL should just do it and as they grow in popularity MLS will have to come to a deal with them for a merger. Most real soccer fans want it.
Sounds good except they can't. They NEED USSF to adjust their div status so that teams can promote/relegate without the investor requirements, otherwise it's just a smoke show.
Pro-Rel is a treadmill stuck in a sand-trap. USL doesn't want to shoot itself in the foot by adding Pro-Rel. Most SPORTS FANS don't want it.
I think Daniel makes the best points. MLS isn't competing with the Premier and La Liga as much as it is the NFL, NBA, and MLB.
So here is the double edge sword... He makes the point we aren't challenging Prem League yet believes people won't pay attention if their team is relegated... The people who won't support a relegated team also aren't supporting an MLS team because it's already considered "minor league" in their eyes... Prem, La Liga, ect are the major leagues and why more watch Prem league than MLS in the USA... How can you compete with the world with your soccer league? You get the best athletes from your country you can to participate in your sport and in your league... How do you do that? Well from what I see England has the better system to keep from allowing any talent to fall through the cracks... In the long run would we compete with Prem league? I don't see any chance of that happening. BUT if you are producing a decent amount of talent that is becoming successful in the Prem league ect, people will watch... Especially IF/When you get those prospects in your league...
I agree with this point too. MLS is competing only against American sports. Nothing, including Pro/Rel will get PL fans to take it seriously In the short term.
The best debate shows on TV currently center around football and basketball. Baseball get some love but not much. NHL is a mainstay on the sport’s center top 10 plays. If We can get to a point where the sport center top 10 plays include MLS/soccer plays on a daily/weekly basis. That going to increase the fans and at the same time grow the game.
Well, yes and no. There are millions of American who are soccer fans but not MLS fans. You really want those people because they are the most likely to have soccer as their favorite sport and will be the most passionate (spend the most).
There are many, many millions who aren't soccer fans who are fans of the big 4 sports who you also want. Culturally though, those people tend to 'hate' soccer as it's not really seen as part of American sports culture.
You want both.
MLS is competing with Liga MX for active soccer fans in the US. It is the most watched and followed league in the US, and MLS cannot grow to its potential without making inroads into that community. The Leagues Cup brings in money for a particular game, but will it bring them back? After all, it is still much easier to watch a Liga MX game than stream an MLS one on Apple. It competes with mostly a different segment of the "active soccer fan" population with the European and South American leagues, though obviously some Liga MX fans also follows teams in those leagues. It isn't as large. After all, there is a reason most La Liga, Bundresliga, and Premier League games are on streaming platforms while Liga MX has national broadcasting with Univision, Telemundo, TUDN, and Fox.
It is competing with the NFL, NBA, and MLB for more generalized sports fans. This is a much larger pool of people. MLS, and soccer more generally, has always struggled in that lane. I think some of ownership groups who also have other teams have done a better job of outreach, but the Apple deal makes it difficult for people who aren't avid fans to casually watch a game or two and find a player or team they enjoy watching. It also really closes off people who don't live in the 24 metro areas with an MLS team, which is a pretty good chunk of the country where there is no localized reason to be interested in a team and the league makes it difficult to give it a chance.
The MLS ranks 5th in both minutes watched and revenue in 2023, behind MLB & NHL by a large margin. The MLS is just not ready for a relegation system for all the reasons stated.
SUM appearing in the early 2000's was an absolute lifeline, a savior, of MLS because it allowed the domestic league - MLS - to ride the coattails of the inherent popularity of international soccer (USMNT, Mexican National Team (in the U.S) and other national team appearances in the U.S) and thereby protecting it and it's growth. I remember reading an article in the mid-to-late 90's on the prospects of MLS survival. The author's basic contention was that international soccer was a natural magnet for economic success and popularity. USA vs. Mexico, USA vs. England etc wiuld always be popular and valuable. The American media companies would always want to buy into rights to the tournaments, friendlies etc. However, that wasn't the case for a domestic league. Would people watch the Hoboken Heafers vs. the Buffalo whoever on a rainy Wednesday night? No. So SUM was a brilliant stroke of genius to tie media rights deals for international soccer to rights deals for MLS. Want the rights to broadcast international soccer? You'd also have to buy rights to MLS games bundled in with the international games. You don't get one without the other. It saved MLS while on its early 2000's deathbed.
I've learned a bit about non league soccer in England and it actually seems pretty awesome. Probably one of the only things that I would consider "American" in England... Here if you want to start even a minor league team you have to have millions. And while I'm sure non league soccer is isn't cheap, from what I understand, you can just about start a soccer team in your backyard... That team has the possibility like every non league team to get into the English soccer league... Which is pretty frikin cool... Correct me if I'm wrong and I'm sure I made it sound more simple than it really is.... However, you really don't have the same options here in America... also, imo if you have that option on the table it creates more interest because you have the possibility to start from the absolute bottom and work your way up...
You're not wrong. If you've seen Welcome to Wrexham, then you would of seen a team called Dorking Wanderers FC started by Marc White and some friends. Eventually he took it over as the owner and manager of the team and the team played at the lowest level of football around tier 11 and worked there way up to tier 5 football. Tier 5 is the National league, within the pyramid and is the lowest level of professional football. However they only need one promotion to be in the EFL. Here's the thing Marc started his team in 1999, that's 25 years ago!?
Here's the difference though, England is the size of Alabama in terms of land area, but it has a population that is 20 million larger than the population of California. The population density in Europe allows it. It wouldn't work in the US where things are so spread out. It's a lot easier to recruit new talent when you have 60 million people living within a 5 hour car ride. Imagine someone in Fargo trying to scout out the latest talent.
All I know is that I live in El Paso texas and ive never so much as seen ANY of the 3 mls teams even care about El Paso but now we got a USL team and the city LOVES them so till mls shows me something i couldnt care less hell I can even watch the local team on tv without cable lol
@loganleroy8622 I don't think the density issue is a problem. The non league teams WIll vacuumed up anyone with any talent. Therefore, no one should fall through the cracks. I think that's what makes the bigger leagues national teams so damn strong... There is almost NO chance a talented footballer falls through the cracks...
@TheHabsification look up Farnham town FC on RUclips. While this team has a lot more money invested than a lot of the smaller non league teams. You can see what they're able to accomplish and where they're attempting to go with much much much less invested than if you were going to attempt to start a small club or some form of minor league team in the USA...
When we have 36 teams in MLS, it is time to introduce pro/rel.
No wants to watch 36 teams of average to below average players
@@fundalementalliving1321 Keep that same energy with all the other countries that have worst players and have existed longer than the MLS.. US soccer fans can never enjoy the sport with people like you
@@fundalementalliving1321 This mindset is why the US will never have pro/rel. There is people who say they want pro/rel now, and then the other half says they don't want to watch it if it's not good enough.
With 36 teams you can also do 2 groups with playoffs.
Why do people assume MLS will continue growing to 36 or more teams? MLB and NBA have 30 teams, and the NFL and NHL have 32. The expansion of those leagues has been minimal, if at all, over the past 25 years. There is only so much that the market will support. I could see some teams moving. CF Montreal is in financial trouble. But I don’t foresee the MLS growing beyond 32 teams in the foreseeable future.
NO owner at NO time will EVER allow their FINANCIAL INVESTMENT to potentially go down the drain with pro/rel.
The only way they would allow it, is if they are allowed to continue using their own stadium, and can also rent it out to whoever gets promoted to replace them. In other words, they would need to be able to make money somehow. Maybe guaranteed streaming time on Apple TV
True. Most of these teams have huge debts and hundreds of employees. It would be bad if the team got relegated
That's where the conversation begins and ends, period. Even if relegated MLS owners are willing to eat the ~$350 million loss, there's still the question of all the 3rd party contracts every one of these teams has executed with cities, sponsors, vendors, etc. that all explicitly state MLS. They'd wake up to that huge loss plus a few dozen major breech actions. This would make relegation a death penalty. No owner would willingly vote for that.
Very true... that's why we can't rely on those owners to make the decision.
@@khalilshahyd9063 I think they might have more power than you.
To Daniel's point. Miami FC stadium was "empty" which COULD also be due to the lack of the POTENTIAL to move up in the divisions. Anti-Pro/Rel people always try to use that point yet fail to look deeper into the issue. Not being able to move up or down in divisions sucks out the magic of a great season for lower-division teams. Yes "die-hard" fans will be there regardless, but being able to move up will also attract the Bandwagoners and could turn them into regular fans and over time cultivate a larger fan base.
It's funny to me how we're such a capitalistic country, except when it comes to sports.
While I agree with Tac on most things, like watching the Pro/Rel system and am in favor of it I do not think it will work in the USA because of the power, politics, and money of MLS owners more than anything and they aren't going to give up what they have in favor of a pro/rel system. What tac said about the academy system is absolutely right though. However what every city does have is a University and or College and many people have more pride in their university than they do in any professional team. That is where youth development should be focused Just like in American Football and in Basketball (which the USA is a powerhouse in those sports). And with the adoption of NIL money now it can be a very appealing option for young people. For the growth of soccer in the USA the best option is to Promote NCAA university level Soccer/ Association Football and the Universities and high schools will serve as the academies in the USA.
Colleges are not an adequate development system for soccer though. The VAST majority of football and basketball players aren't ready to play in pro leagues until they're 21-22 anyways. In soccer and hockey by the time you're graduating college you're already too old to really be considered a prospect with much growth potential. Youth academies are much more relevant to player development and almost all of the good American players at the moment didn't play in college and came out of a professional team's academy. The NCAA is also super corrupt (maybe even more than FIFA) and inefficient and really should be abolished not invested in.
@@GeroldGarthcia I agree, the NCAA coaches in every sport are worried about winning, not development of players. Why have we seen a drop in quality of rookies in the NFL and the NBA? Because coaches have more pressure to win, especially with NIL and how much money is put into collegiate sports now. A college coach is gonna pick the players that help him win faster, than try to develop a kid that maybe is gonna help him win in 3 or 4 years or reach his ceiling in the pros. By year 3 or 4 that coach might be fired and that kid is gonna help whoever replaced them or whatever pro team drafts him. Soccer, like hockey has always been a sport were your best players are developed through academies or pay for play systems. And unfortunately some fall through the cracks because their families can't afford to pay academy fees or equipment fees like in hockey. All these European clubs that have academies abroad say they're trying to look for the best talent but for a kid to make it into that academy, their parents have to pay for them, first just to try out, then if you make the academy, you have to pay to stay there.
@@aidenroqz yes, pay to play is a problem, but that's just a reason to invest in making academies free or at least cheaper, not wasting resources on the NCAA, which is basically just a haven for players who are never gonna be good enough to move the needle. Ultimately the problem is greed. University administrators and coaches often are in it for big dollar payoffs, and clubs are trying to turn a quick profit with their academies. Clubs should be forced to spend money subsidizing development for low income players.
@@GeroldGarthcia I agree it isn't the best option and the academy is a much better option but It maybe the best option given the way things are set up in the USA right now for drawing interest and getting the youth involved
the main thing for the university push is to increase demand. As Tac was saying one of his objection was lack of opportunity and interest if you don't have an MLS team near by but a lot of people do have pride in the local universities. Like Kentucky, and Louisville basketball (a state with No NBA team but loves basketball) or Alabama and Aurburn gridiron football (despite no NFL team in the state Gridiron football is like a religion to them).
@@GeroldGarthcia I guess the algorithm I see is.
States with no professional team are very loyal to their universities.
University Soccer starts getting pushed and more tv and promotion time The youth in that area get interested and start playing soccer.
Private companies see the demand for soccer training and provide it to the youth or MLS expand opportunities to get involved.
Youth become good soccer players and get recruited by MLS, USL, or Colleges.
If talent pool increases enough then teams in Europe and or MLS take a look at them and offer to take them into the academies.
Supporters of MLS promotion/relegation only need to ask two questions: 1). would all 29 MLS ownership groups agree to participate (unanimous ascent is needed to change the MLS constitution and operating agreements; 2). would all 29 then be willing to renegotiate basically every third-party business contract they hold AND successfully convince all of those partners-from key sponsors to municipal entities that helped pay for infrastructure-to tear up/rewrite their deals and accept the added financial jeopardy that comes with promotion/relegation (without additional compensation for that risk). Any lawyer will tell you that every one of those deals state MLS participation explicitly. Any MLS team that gets relegated from MLS would therefore be in breach and the lawsuits would fly. And what owner that just spent $300-$500 million to buy into MLS would be willing to place that investment at risk of becoming worth 10x less valuable because of a bad season? Would that owner be compensated for the loss? Would the promoted team be required to pay the current $500 million MLS entry fee or would the other owners be willing to waive that (and drop their own valuations) because they’re really nice guys? What ONE owner would vote for this, let alone 29? And for what? They will tell you that MLS is growing faster than any US sport while team valuations, TV revenue, and sponsor spending continue to rise. They will tell you there’s nothing to fix. You may say “Forget the owners for a second,” but this isn’t some kind of democracy. The decision to restructure their league to introduce promotion/relegation is entirely up to THEM. Right now, there is no incentive or valid business reason to undergo this monumental and very costly change. FIFA has zero power in this. Even if they were dumb enough to go to war with US owners over trying to decertify MLS for not implementing promotion/relegation, they’d be engaging in clear-cut tortious interference and they'd be shredded in US court. Again, ask any lawyer about this. It’s a non-starter. It’s not about whether promotion/relegation “should” or should not be; it’s about HOW you would make promotion/relegation actually happen. There is no good “how.” Wanting it and actually making it happen are two very different things. The only pathway starts at the lower level where the legal and financial obstacles aren’t as enormous. Perhaps as the sport grows over the next few decades, lower club valuations might rise, and the gap between MLS and whatever falls behind it might look a little more like the lesser gap between lower EPL and upper Championship teams (and therefore become more negotiable). Until then, no owner will willingly vote to place their $400 million investment in jeopardy of becoming a $40 investment. That’s where the idea dies, plain and simple. “But it would make the competition better” doesn’t change that any more than my strong feelings about the USMNT don’t make them a top 5 soccer power.
It's not about MLS.
Oh boo hoo! Some spoiled billionaires lost some cash because their teams sucked too much ass. Somebody get em' a tampon. 😆
I also don't want MLS to collapse under pro/rel, but I do think we can get there eventually. First thing we need to do is increase the salary cap steadily and sustainably over a period of 5-10 years until the caps are 2-3x of their current level. This will attract more talent, which makes better soccer, which makes better viewership by fans. Then you can do this scarlet letter thing he was talking about for a few seasons, then you can institute a pro/rel system of 20 teams - MLS and MLS 2 or something, fill the rest of MLS 2 with the top USL teams. You'd also have to make the financials such that MLS and ML2 had equal shares of pooled revenue at first, then slowly make it 1.5:1 or 2:1 or something. Something like that might work
Well, interestingly enough.... Based on the annual MLS-PA reports, that list every player's salary, the average MLS Payroll has been DOUBLING every 5 to 6 years (since 2010). Avg MLS team Payroll for 2023 was $17 million, 6 years ago it was half that. That not the "Cap" that you're referring to, but it's a decent indicator to see that MLS is in fact increasing spending on players/talent.
Finally some good sense in this Pro-Rel debate.
I think MLS should both expand and look towards the grass-roots development pathways that Japan has forged and the semi-regional league structure of Brazil (even Germany and England have that structure it's just way lower down the pyramid). Obviously Paul is correct, the biggest hurdle is how to implement the finances. Ultimately I love that idea that Paul and Filipo cooked up to have regional youth leagues/tournaments with promotion relegation, one thing I would add is that MLS academies must be required to join. Then eventually I think USL should move towards Pro-Rel and MLS Next Pro shouldn't be a siloed off league, maybe they could be folded into USL just like how Real Madrid Castilla and Barca B often compete in the 3rd division in Spain (sometimes even the 2nd division).
I absolutely hate that in Germany where I live. 2nd teams can only go as high as the third division, but that's a blight on the league. In terms of Germany, I think 2nd teams at regional level is fine, but it shouldn't be allowed at a national level. Any system that makes hoarding players easier/better is terrible.
Increasing level of play/talent in America would solve almost all the problems. Investing in the youth is the best way to do that. I live in Idaho and when I play soccer with my kids at the park people ask why we are playing volleyball with our feet. If investments never comes, that won't change.
What problems? And MLS is and has been investing in youth development. They created an entire 3rd Division league, they have nearly 700 academies across the country.
For MLS to "break through" in the U.S. sports landscape, what it's going to take is bringing Pulisic, "Captain America," to Chicago Fire, Weston McKennie to Atlanta United, Alphonzo Davies to Toronto, Gio Reyna to NYCFC... after the 2026 World Cup.
We need to split the two regions between east and west and allow for Pro/Rel within the region and then there should be a champions league type of tournament between teams that are of the same category
Would go a long way towards cutting travel time and costs too
Except, you eliminate the star power effect. I support a team in the Western conference, and I have seen a dramatic increase in fan attendance this year. Why? Because Messi is coming to town next month, and it was cost effective to get season tickets. You take that away, and you lose thousands of fans.
@@pcoleman1971 the idea is to stop relying on “star power” we need to increase the level of our players by creating real competition, when we see our own step up their game the fans will come back, we aren’t even better than liga mx, first we need to conquer the Mexican, Argentine and Brazilian leagues, those leagues don’t rely on “star power” and they are better than us.
@@glencassiano2658 Developing talent takes money. And yet, you are proposing a system which would bring in less revenue.
@@pcoleman1971 not as much money as a franchise player costs, plus mls is subsidized by the us soccer federation, it is very likely your local mls team loses money more than it generates, right now mls is all based on future projections but once Messi leaves there will be a huge dip in popularity, and yes I accept that teams should get ready to weather the storm until they get it together and the fans understand why it is so important to be there for their team and only the strongest will survive, from personal experience I am sick and tired of having my local team serve only as a roadshow venue for the better teams in the league
In England, Spain, Ukraine, Italy, e.t.c. first rounds of the cup (against lower division teams) are usually played by U-21/Res squads. So the answer to your question is: "No, in open league system the problem of playing with reserves in the cup would still be the ordinary practice."
Greenbay in NFL is why it should be a thing. Would never get a franchise under these rules yet they are a top 5 valuable team. The best teams will become where the areas/region support them the most
Okay, so where's the Time Machine that could make that rationale work? Otherwise, we're living in modern times, and your argument holds no water.
Also, are there NFL teams/Pro FB teams in every town in Wisconsin? No. Is there Relegation in the NFL? No. Case closed.
The big players will leave when they get relegated and leave when they get paid to go to the newly promoted minor league team.
This would be the same for the Universities if they joined the MLS as second and 3rd division teams.
Universities are now technically professional now or at the very least semi-professional like the 5th tier of english football.
In addition Universities are deeply tied to the community and have the history that MLS does not. With the salary cap there would be no issue with them joining and they would be incentivized to introduce academies across their pipeline
I’m open to pro/rel, but as a sport and country as a whole we’re nowhere near able to support it. D2 need SIGNIFICANT infrastructure improvements and we’re just starting to see that. I think it’s probably realistic to implement pro/rel in 15-20 years
Or Hawaii and Alaska. I see zero access to MLS for those folks.
In the US (read also MLS) a sports team can get up and leave from one city to the next. The 'hometown' fan is that precisely because there is a home team. AFAIK, most soccer clubs in Europe/South America are clubs (with a business aspect) where, generally, the members are the 'owners'. In a way, like the Green Bay Packers. If there would be a 2nd division of NFL and the Packers would have been relegated, they'd still have huge crowds. The organic growth at the "home team" level but with a franchised owner can only occur if that team is likely to stay there IMO.
I think MLS's long term plan is to function as a number of regional leagues (Southeast, Northeast, Midwest, etc.) and have MLS function more like a European champions league over the united states.
The only reason we’re never getting Pro/Rel is because of shareholders. They’re not going to risk their investment portfolio for pro/rel nor will they let other leagues implement it.
Teams will lose fans if relegated.
Teams in lower leagues have inferior infrastructure to be able to compete financially in MLS.
If you quit supporting your team then you aren't a fan. The pain and joy of seeing your team fight back from relegation would be better than seeing them consistently at the bottom because of poor ownership
Before Promotion and relegation happened in English Football, they had an elected system, which might be better solution to American football or test matches where you have certain amount from MLS vs USL championship.
59:45 "Is MLS a popular sport"? Is he trying to ask if soccer is popular or if MLS is popular?
If he is asking if MLS is popular then no.
If he is asking if soccer is popular then Id say yes, Id argue a top 3 sport in the country. The youth and immigrants really boosted the numbers. The only sport I see people talk about more than soccer is football 🏈 and basketball.
In youth sports it is very popular for kids playing. But in viewership and buying merch, for adults and kids? The gap is very wide.
First, your guest really underestimates how serious even the $100-$200 can be for low-income families, plus a lot of the rec facilities I found for my son doesn’t have public transit access. So I don’t believe that high talent can be found if it’s there. Also on my point I live in NJ just outside of the NYC. We have the Red Bulls but the youth doesn’t start till 11. My son is 4. A lot of La Liga and EPL teams have clinics masquerading as rec or academies in their own words but they’re all 60 minutes plus away.
I agree with you on the fact that fans follow the team and may not pay attention to what league they’re in. I also don’t believe fans of any sport watch it bcuz of its popularity ranking. We watch it due to our exposure to it from friends and family.
The fc cincinnati example by daniel honestly is terrible. They started in a second division in usl and grew a very dedicated fanbase, then when they made it to mls the team was one of the worst in the league's history and the fanbase felt like they became more invested because they wanted the team to succeed. One of the best fanbases in mls now.
Daniel was talking about how fans are not excited about their team being promoted or relegated and they the care more about and want a bracket tournament at the end of a season. Well hey, have the second division do a playoff for some of the teams that don’t finish high enough to get promoted. As for the highest tier, they don’t get a playoff but the tops teams qualify for the CCC and there’s your bracket right there. You can have your cake and eat it too
When you live in a major market, pro rel doesn't make sense. Having lived in a "secondary" market for many years in Louisville, we are passionate fans...the possibility of advancing up to the "majors" is definitely something to consider. For the larger markets like LA, NY imagine the feeling if you are a Galaxy fan having LAFC get relegated...or vice versa.
As a parent of one soccer player and one American football player I dont yet see a path for my soccer player to go pro that doesnt cost me a ton of money. But for my football player he's already got a fantasic coach and a fairly cheap pathway if he wants to continue. The financial risk for teams requires a culture of absolute loyalty which Americans won't give because the sport isn't yet completely ingrained yet.
Despite all of the valid points discussed, but in the end there was NO argument AGAINST pro/rel, but rather they only covered the difficulty of implementing pro/rel in the USA.
In the previous video, I stated that pro/rel is more or less the same as a playoff system, but there are many reasons to avoid the pro/rel system:
-old system in England when there were amateurs and relied exclusively on ticket sales.
-just because Europe and South America have pro/rel, why should we copy that silly system? Pro/rel is a system that doesn’t necessarily have to be tied to the game of soccer.
-not enough teams in the USA.
-creates a caste system that only favors 2-3 teams, and then there’s the rest.
There’s so many more reasons than these to avoid pro/rel.
I think I mentioned the amateur status… agree in principle but not something I would argue about … agreed. Not in this video but I did mention that I think the lower divisions need the most work before you can go to pro/rel …. Think I would argue this based on location. Larger city teams will do better than smaller city teams for the most part.
SHOUTOUT FOR THE BUFFALO MENTION!
I just started to pay attention to soccer and to me what makes soccer interesting is promotion and relegation. As a New York jets fan my life is miserable, if they had promotion and regulation in American football I would be invested all season long, adds more drama and storylines to the season. ( the jets have the longest playoff drought in American sports)
These guys have no idea how difficult it is as a talented footballer to just “be found” in the US
I don't think an open pyramid system would be kryptonite to the top league not wanting to send their full first team to the U S Open Cup. If anything, since there is added risk of relegation, the clubs in the top league would not want the added distraction and injury risk of added U.S Open cup games.
Orlando guy is full of it kids don't just get better by playing anywhere
I unfortunately don’t think pro/rel will ever happen in this country. In my opinion that is ok as long as lower league soccer is still able to thrive in this country but I worry the current environment is too stacked against lower leagues for them to have any chance unless a minor league system similar to baseball is set up
Sunil Gulati always said two things when confronted with questions about pro/rel in the USA:
1. "We aren't in the business of devaluing our assets."
2. "If we tried to impose pro/rel on MLS owners, we'd be in front of 12 judges in Washington D.C."
Pro/rel is a square peg to the round hole of American sports economics.
But Ive always thought a "half pro/rel" system might work. That is, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th divisions (presumably USL Championship, League 1, and League 2) could be open to pro/rel AND MLS could accept two top 2nd division teams in the following fluid way:
1. The top two USL teams would be promoted to MLS and would remain in MLS until they finished an MLS season in one of the bottom two positions in the league table. If they do finish in that relegation zone they go back down to USL Championship the next year to compete for another top two finish for promotion again.
3. The promoted USL teams would compete in MLS season after season until they finish in the relegation zone.
4. Regular MLS clubs would never be in jeopardy of relegation regardless of where they finish in the table.
This isn't the full pro/rel utopia but that would never happen. MLS Investor/Operators risk their half a billion dollar entry fee and anither half billion in a new soccer-specific stadium at todays prices, and would never stand for having their assets devalued without taking it before 12 judges in Washington D.C.
That's not bad. MLS might grow to 32 teams, so how about leave those 2 spots for USL teams to prove themselves. How about, out of 2 USL teams that get "Promoted", only 1 gets to stay. So New Mexico and Charleston join MLS in 2025, but the lower one in the standings gets "Relegated", say it's Charleston. Then the USL Champ of 2025, say it's Louisville, gets "Promoted" to MLS in 2026 and has to battle New Mexico to remain in MLS for 2027.
That's a good variation too.
The right answer is to just not have a promotion or relegation system. They say that relegation lowers the value of the club. And the owner does not invest more in a weak team. Do you think the bottom ranked team will win the League?
REALITY: MLS will continue to grow as it has been under the "Major League" system (not Pro-Rel). And in 2027, the year after the World Cup, MLS will start luring USMNT "Stars" back to the U.S. (and Davies/Canada/MLS). By 2030, MLS will be at the level of Brasilerio Seria A, and among the Top 5 to 7 leagues in the world.
I don’t see MLS reaching the level of CONMEBOL’s best. Brazil Serie A is great at developing world class talent and CONMEBOL is the second most prestigious confederation behind UEFA. MLS is becoming good at developing talented youth players, but they have yet became anywhere close to decent at developing talented youths into talented professionals. On top of that, CONCACAF is no longer the third most prestigious in FIFA for a good decade. AFC and CAF both surpassed CONCACAF in both prestige, performance, and popularity. MLS is being hyped as a top 15 league while rarely accomplishing anything in CONCACAF. Our national teams players returning back from European leagues will result in what happened leading up to the 2017 FIFA World Cup. We did not qualify because our players declined in quality because MLS never proved themselves as a good league for developing and maintaining the strengths of talented players.
Paul is DELUSIONAL about youth soccer in this country. Absolutely ridiculous
Examples: messi was "too small", Kane was "too fat", Xabi Alonso was "too slow"
Really not sure what I said that would make you think I was delusional.
But people need to understand is for the casuals pro/rel will bring viewers as well. I will watch the EFL promotion playoffs just cause of the story and the drama I’m not a efl fan of any of the clubs that are in it but the story the drama of getting to the big league is entertaining the drama of getting relegated is enticing for a casual
It won't bring in casual viewers because we already know what casual viewers do. They will just watch another team they support in a different sport. The MLS Playoffs already have to compete with viewers for the tail end of CFB season where there is tremendous drama as teams fight for conference championships and spots in the playoffs in extremely high-stakes games. The NFL has also hit its stride as teams face the drama of teams trying to get into the playoffs. They could also just watch the NBA or NHL that will be playing at that time. There are multiple sports leagues competing for a casual fan's attention that a relegation battle wouldn't be much of a blip on the radar for a sport that is already largely ignored.
Definitely Dear Filippo🙏
some reasonable takes along with some unreasonable ones imo. I still think pro/rel is the best thing for soccer due to many things including competition, stakes and access. All of this will help build the talent level of the country as well as grow the fanbase. Imagine having Montana FC playing in LA due to sporting merit. That hope and chance is what sports fans live off of.
It's absolute madness that we're having a conversation about leaving out players on the level of Tillman from a team of 23 in such a big tournament, but it's testimony to how far we've come in the past 20 years.
I have no reason to watch MLS. There is not a team in Michigan. The professional teams in Michigan cannot ever compete in the first division. This, along with a number of reasons means MLS does not interest me.
Do you watch USL?
Go to Detroit city fc it's well worth it
Promotion and relegation in the end is inevitable if, if, soccer in the US keeps growing. Soccer probably will never become as popular as it is in Europe and South America because of the competition of football, baseball and basketball. But if the US wants soccer to stay it needs grassroots. It will need thousands of clubs with youth academies, futsal, recreational teams, womens teams. Then it will need strong regional amateur/semiprofessional leagues with easy access (little travel time) for supporters. Just after that happens promotion/relegation to the MLS should be in full swing with 3 or 4 promotion spots and some form of play-off.
People go to minor league baseball games...college sports in football and basketball (a minor league) attract billions in revenue
College Football has the most attendance out of any sports league in the world, and college basketball has the greatest annual tournament in the world. Both leagues were so successful at the college level that the professional leagues grew out of the college leagues as dumping grounds for former college players. No minor league in the world has anything close to what the big college sports have.
I think Daniel is spot on with many of his arguments. American sports culture is not European or South American sports culture. For one, fans in America have options. If you want to set up a Pro/Rel system here, those fans could easily say forget that, I'll go watch one of the other sports... particularly baseball that runs in the same season as MLS.
Also, Pro/Rel does not offer parity! The same money-bags teams are in the running for the championships every year. Yes, it's cute that a team can get into the top league... but to an American fan that is not good enough. You want to feel like your team that you support has a legitimate chance to win the championship every year. The American way of doing sports is just fine. Euros will think America is nuts, but their system was established from a long time ago, and America has a system that works for American fans that has been established from a long time ago, and they should embrace it.
What I really would like to see are teams actively engaged in recruiting talent, and make an investment, and recruit prospects into academies on "scholarship". Get rid of this pay to play bs. That opens up the pool of talent immensely.
How is anyone outside of the MLS Cartel benefiting from that "parity"?
@sunrae3971 Growth in soccer academies, and growth in overall interest in the sport. Kids can see matches and aspire to one day play professionally. It's no longer just a sport played overseas.
Plus, the US and Canadian national teams are much better than they were 20 years ago. As a Vancouver fan, I saw a young Alphonso Davies play his first professional match after emerging from the Whitecaps academy, so I saw the MLS development first hand.
Are there still problems? Yes. I agree with the issues noted by JK. But those issues won't be solved by pro/rel.
@@pcoleman1971 The Question is on how many "Davies" the MLS Cartel is missing out. There are so many WC Champions such system would have ignored. No regular peasant gets such risk free deals on investments.
As far as academies, why isn't US Soccer looking at creating hubs for some of those players that are near the point of making a MLS Academy but are just short of it? France has Clairfontaine, the US should maybe have 6-10 regional centers that can find those diamonds in the rough and help get them prepared for either MLS or other pro leagues? I also think we need US Soccer to look at the top leagues in other countries and say, "This is the maximum amount of teams we can support at the top division". Most countries are at 18-20 teams depending on how well those countries are doing financially. An East/West split where the East and West winner only play in the MLS Cup Final isn't the best option, but it might be the only one that those owners will back instead of risking the drop.
The number of teams that a league can support is a function of money, domestic talent, and access to international players through both funds and labor law. MLS is structured to have a flatter distribution of funds throughout the league than you would see elsewhere. As such, the relative gap among the highest, mid, and bottom teams is not such that it makes competitiveness to be one of its problems. The domestic talent pool can be debated, but the ability for MLS teams to bring in international players (and later for those players to get green cards and become domestic players) has allowed the league to double in size over the past fifteen years without significant issues. MLS has its issues, but I don't think over expansion really ranks.
First none are actual futbol fans second their ain’t no money in actually making soccer great in the US
People dont show up to 2nd division because there's no hope to promote to 1st division. If there was, the 2nd and 3rd division teams would be more interesting to fans. Thats a bullshyt argument about fan culture.
They do have "hope" to be promoted to the first division... by buying into MLS.
@davepazz580 yeah, very difficult for a $20M franchise to come up with $500M... almost equates to no hope without a Billionaire boys club investor
@@CoachSeanUT I agree is difficult but nonetheless, that's how it's done...
@@davepazz580you're a jackass...
@@khalilshahyd9063 and still right...
Possibly the only way soccer in the US goes Pro/Rel is after a merge Liga MX.
Moreover growing fan bases? Have a local team playing with a shot to advance up to MLS would expand fanship exponentially
Unfortunately, in the United States, you don't know that.
Why not implement a higher salary cap, better roster rules, with a luxury tax sliek MLB so the bigger clubs can spend more and part will go to the same division teams that are below the cap and some can be used for solidarity payments. Could this also be repeated in lower divisions as well? Curious to your thoughts......
I don't think we need "casual fans" to build soccer in the USA.
It’s MLS owners keeping the game hostage because of their financial investment. They aren’t growing the game by limiting to only 29 teams. So many communities, cities, states are forever regulated to second division at best. I don’t see that changing given the amount that these MLS teams have paid.
How many more cities are actually MLS ready???? USL teams play in HS football stadiums or in municipal fields with nothing more than bleachers and maybe a snack bar! But those who want this system expect their tax payers or investors to build (at the very limit) $12,000 seat stadiums, with parking, adequate concessions (that’s where the money is at to pay back sponsors) and all the required codes and safety features that these type of projects require. The only way these things happen is in today’s economic and political landscape is if there’s a guarantee on return for your investment which means “playing in the highest league”. This is not 1904 where every club, every community that fielded a team where all on the same playing field (as it applies to resources and fans). 2024 America requires major planning and investment and civic (public and governmental) support to create facilities that can accommodate an actual fanbase!!!!! Smaller cities, and places where soccer is not near the top of the sports/entertainment hierarchy…this expectation is not feasible nor realistic.
I don’t think this is up to the mls, I believe it’s up to the fans. If the usl puts together a system that works, they could shut the mls down entirely. And I think that’s why, I think, we’re even having this debate
Does Paul realize the lack of interest in developing talent at the youth level from club as compared to running... Is single handedly keeping us behind as a Nation
Lack of interest? I mean, I can list 50 things that are wrong with youth soccer and player development, lack of interest most certainly not be one of them.
As much as I want pro/rel, there's too big of a financial gap between the two for pro/rel to be a viable option between MLS & USL. Why would the ownership group of San Diego want to stay in a league where they just spent 400mil to start a club? And in the off chance that they'd sell their team, what ownership group would buy into a club at that premium of a price when they can just start a USL club for a fraction of the price?
Pro/rel should be a system for USL. and lower divison teams. The teams are more appealing to local markets to be fans of, + buy-in & op-cost are more feasible. There's too big of a financial gap between the two for pro-rel to be a viable option between MLS & USL. Don't even get me started of the reaganomics fiasco that revenue sharing would be 😂
The main problem is that we really can’t start it because we’ll lose a lot of inventors. We’re too deep into it already.
Think tac needs a bit of a reality check regarding the quality of MLS affecting viewership. We’re not all soccer RUclipsrs with unlimited watch time. I don’t watch MLS for the same reason I don’t watch CFL, UFL, or arena football. I know there’s a higher level out there and that’s what I’m gonna watch.
I would love to see a youth tournament similar to the little league world series
The only way we're getting promotion and relegation in this country is if FIFA steps in in my opinion
I didn't know that states didn't have pro/rel in youth soccer.... Utah has had it in competition leagues for over 20 years.
This guy is so separated from reality. My favorite team is Portsmouth. They just got promoted to the championship. I know a ton of fans of Norwich fighting to get in the prem. The other issue that went over their head was minor league clubs in baseball have followings. MLS can buy USL and advent profit sharing just like the EPL sends down
Yes, I divorced reality years ago.
MLS owners have invested a billion dollars in their MLS teams. They won't stand for the risk of devaluing their billion dollar asset by relegation to a minor league. And if USSF tried to force it on them, they would be standing in front of 12 judges in a district court.
MLS will never be considered one of the 4 major sports leagues. NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL are all the #1 league in the world in their respective sports. MLS will never be that.
I would love promotion/relegation. I would love to be able to start a community club with the dream of making the to the US 1st division.
Whitout pro/rel no stakes on MLS... Just a boring league depending on Messi magic
Kicking out one team and replacing it with another bad team every year doesn't equal "stakes" anyone really cares about...
@@davepazz580 If teams get booted from the league, they're losing money, so nobody wants to get kicked out. That's why they strive not to finish last. If you move up to the higher league, you earn more money, so they strive to stay and improve. If you have no disadvantage in finishing last, you don't have to make an effort, as is the case in the NBA. The Spurs decided they wouldn't make it to the play-in tournament midway through the season and stopped trying to win to get a better pick in the next season. It's better to let yourself lose if you're in the middle of the table. Of course, there are stakes.
I know all that... but I meant league-wide, nobody really cares what the *worst* teams are doing - people would more naturally focus on who's doing best or challenging for the top spot.
Last-place team in US sports are just an afterthought... once you fail to make the playoffs, most fans tune out anyway.
What generates interest is qualifying for playoffs and seeing how far a team can "extend" their season and possibly be challenging for the league title.
In the NBA, the last place team isn't automatically given the top pick anyway (that's decided via lottery, so simply playing to lose won't guarantee anything).
The proper way to look at it is teams that finish last should worry the *players* and *coaches* because they specifically are the ones who could "lose money" by being demoted or sent away as individuals.
That would only make sense, since finishing last wasn't the fault of the paying fans... why drag the entire team and fans down also?
LA Galaxy fan here…. Even if they ever get relegated I will always support them!!! Football is a a different type compare to the other leagues.
We can't even get a second professional football league like XFL to be a success lol. Best bet is to make college soccer the best it can be
To be fair I think these guys make very fair real and unbiased opinions. I respect it fully. I agree with some of it even. I think a lot of what they say about the Us culture not accepting pro/rel is true because we only focus on the top division teams. I would say it would take some time to build that culture up of rooting for grass roots teams to earn their way up, and maybe that sacrifice in time and effort to build that culture is to much in competition with MLS and USSF current goal of supporting what they’ve already spent decades growing and is improving the soccer culture in the us.
Pro\Rel is best, and its just, every team should get the opportunity to progress into higher competitions. thats how all sports works, you go from local to state to regional to national etc..thats how soccer should also be!
-- No matter how small you are it still works, people will show up when they know their smaller league team is fighting for promotion! Thats how you attract people, there has to be something to gwt excited for! IT WORKS IN US COMPLETELY! GET PRO\REL!!!
I totally agree with Daniel's opening about the incompatibility of American culture with the pro/rel system.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that some of the rules of European soccer are also incompatible with the American public.
By this I mean that the current rules allow the game to be often slow, boring, and too soft. This is at odds with the American view of athletes, so soccer players are often seen as just regular guys kicking balls around.
American sports fans like rough and tough athletes, so most of them don't respect soccer, which is seen as a prima donna, whiny sport.
Its not a scam its very fair because it rewards the team who has actually been consistent and it makes it clear that teams can’t just be farms to sell players .
The scam refers to the fact that for it to work, promoted and relegated teams need to be subsidized. It doesn’t mean that pro rel is a scam.
I call bs on soccer being available to all. Ask the folks in West Virginia if they have a pathway to MLS haha
Many don't have a "pathway" to *any* major league sport... that's life, it isn't fair.
The snobs who want Pro/Rel wouldn't watch it if we had it.
Pro/rel will NEVER happen in the MLS. Owners paying half a billion for franchises and building new stadiums for nearly a billion. You just aren't convincing these owners that they could get relegated to a lower, less prestigious league. On top of the exorbitant amount they're paying up front, there is the matter of the present salary cap. How are you going to convince owners that they can't spend what they want to get out of the lower leagues? It's a fool's errand. And besides that the system works great as is. Nothing wrong with a league that prides itself on parity and a unique playoff system. Sorry guys, it is what it is.
This guy is wrong. There are tons of youth 9, youth 10 and youth 11 kids in Orlando who are very good. Some of them are Mexican farm worker kids and they don’t have $5000 to pay to join academy. I coach a bunch of them in a rec league and we beat up academy teams all the time. My job is to get them discovered. This guy does not know what he is talking about.
I'm sorry I don't know what I am talking about. I failed Sociology of Me my junior year in college.
@@SimpleCoachTVyour English is totally poor. Your last sentence is totally off.
@@Stewy-xw9fz Poor, yes. I did go to kollege though. This last sentence is ON.
The argument that you’ll only get hard core fans in the second division is false. The nfl and other American sports including us soccer have gone to the Disney idea of it being a rare experience to go to a game. Imagine finally being able to afford seasons tickets to your favorite team because they got relegated and tickets aren’t $200 a pop for one game. You’ll actually find out who your true fans are. Not just who can afford to fashionable by being able to afford ridiculous ticket prices.
And therefore your team will never be able to pay for quality players to get to Promoted and stay there. I would lead to less and less Parity, and more towards only 3 or 4 BIG teams winning everything every year.
@@davidday2373 completely unlike the chiefs and patriots. You forget man city was in the second division in the early 2000,s. Leicester won the league after being promoted two years earlier. Your argument doesn’t track.
@@thepitch8077 Well, 10 other teams won the Super Bowl during the Patriots' SB reign (2001-18), so even "dominant" teams aren't so dominant. And the RICHEST team in NFL hasnt won the SB in 30 years!
@@thepitch8077 LOL, they always bring up "Lester City" as the rare exception. Even with Lester, in the EPL's history, 80% of Championships have been won by only 3 teams. BTW, in the 90+ years of La Liga only 9 different teams have ever won the League. And how dies anyone justify Bayern/Bundesliga, PSG/Ligue1, etc?
I feel like tac had much better points, but he was also asking the questions to be fair
Do Champions League predictions and also USA & Ecuador combined XI
6:32 False about Australia and failure in the 80s. The league failed because external factors such as government, media, violence and also funding football in Australia would not get any support.
Definitely bring Daniel back!
Pro/rel can't take over the entirety of the top tier, and the single entity nature of MLS works too well to just scrap it. However, if USL is able to put together 12 teams initially for a first tier alongside MLS, I do think that would be intriguing. That could maybe work in parallel with the stuff that MLS is already doing. It would be sort of like having a Super League all over North America and then there's also a less expensive top tier for smaller markets, which could be part of an open system.
Do you know what is really holding MLS back? There deal with Apple TV. All the other major sports in the US can be found on basic cable tv. I can even watch the WWE on Fox using just an antenna. But for someone to watch the MLS it is just another subscription they have pay for. If you are going to pay for a subscription to watch soccer you might as well just get Peacock and watch the EPL.
Soccer is not even 30 years old in America...Acadamies were started 15 years ago....15 years ago there were only 15 teams... MLS is not in competition with liga mx they're in competition with the other leagues here in america... MLS doesn't have to be at MLB level to take over the world of soccer.... we judge a league based on 2 or 3 teams.... la liga,bundes,and serie A are not giants...real madrid and barca make the league look more than they are...
USYS already has their sanctioned pyramid level annual tournaments to help local community teams compete in various levels and move on from State to regional and than Nationals. Sadly, USYS is competing with MLS and other entities that are all creating their own leagues and tournaments. You might have a really great local community youth team but they might never be given the opportunity to compete with MLS Next youth teams.
The issues we see with MLS and USL are seen in youth soccer in US.
The Open Cup is a bracket system. 😒
There is no meaning to MLS games and that’s why I hardly watch MLS. The games mean absolutely nothing. Pro/Rel would change that.
If you don't watch, how do you know?
Kicking out one bad team and replacing it with another bad team every year won't change anything...
@@davepazz580when you have pro/rel there are a lot of options available. The team that gets promoted can choose to spend money e.g Nottingham Forest. The team that get promoted can choose to sell to a rich investor who will spend money e.g Bournemouth. There are much more activity on and off the pitch with Pro/Rel which gets the fans excited. So I totally disagree with your assessment.
Sure, that happens in Europe because it's a free "club" system with very little restrictions on team building...
But such a scenario wouldn't happen in MLS because the league itself owns all the teams... there's no such thing as a billionaire coming in and "buying" an MLS team and pumping all kinds of money into it.
@@SimpleCoachTVI am not interested in watching MLS loading up inter Miami with talent so that Messi can treat the league like a bush league. The same Messi who couldn’t do anything at PSG but is now the undisputed King of MLS. Every MLS soccer fan was expecting the league to increase the salary cap when they sign the Apple deal so teams could recruit better players but instead MLS kept the salary cap the same so that Messi and inter Miami wouldn’t have any competition and they would have a great chance of winning the league. It’s all set up for Messi. Barring any injuries or unforeseen circumstances, inter Miami should win the league. Unfortunately, I am one of those soccer fans who is not interested. When MLS increase the salary cap and the talent is spread out throughout the league to allow greater competition send me an email, but until then my attention will be elsewhere.
Daniel had good points but my pushback against not being interested in anything other than D1 would be Americans aren't even exposed or aware of pro/rel and how teams can't move up or down. People don't watch D2 and below because there's no investment if they can't move up and their best players just go somewhere else.
Although I agree that a fully open system wouldn't work due to smaller population cities couldn't sustain a team. I think a good compromise is like Japan where we keep it closed but have pro/rel within the closed system along with regulations that we're accustomed to for competitiveness.
The "move up or down" bit only makes full sense in a league made up in totally independent, self-sustaining "clubs", where the regular season is basically just a method of "ranking" top to bottom placings and nothing more...
But in a single-entity system where the league itself outright owns all the teams and they are all essentially "business partners" with each other to sustain that concentration of financial power, then it *really* starts making no sense at all...
A second division team will *always* be just a second division team in quality... being the "top" second division teams wouldn't magically transform them into a top division quality team nor would they have any "right" to join a single-entity league just based on a second division record.
@@davepazz580 Which is why it would work for USL's format. That is my point. Other sports teams in the US can't move up/down so there's no real investment in lower teams. Average American fans aren't even aware of a possible system.
The Jets have fans because they suck but still play in the top league and have a chance at the beginning of every season.
The Jets also haven't always sucked. They've won a Super Bowl and at times have been competitive. No team has always sucked, not even the ones without SB wins.
Plus Jets fans are still watching the stars on the other side play their team. Jets fans may be booing Travis Kelce when he comes to town, but they are still showing up.
On the surface, pro - rel seems great. In practice, especially as it was called out, in modern times, it’s horrible.
Team A: Finishes mid table
Team B: Gets relegated.
Team C: Finishes top 4, gets UCL.
ALSO
Team A: Has net €-198 million transfer deficit
Team B: has net €-25 million transfer deficit
Team C: Has net €-167 million transfer deficit
Team A: Chelsea, Team B: Luton Team C: Arsenal
Who disappointed the most? Clearly Chelsea? The fact that itty bitty Luton is forced to compete with spending like that is incredibly unfair. And, beyond that, Chelsea will never be relegated because they are simply buying enough wins to survive.
So, in short, MLS implementing pro-relegation would look like this.
LA, NY, DAL, and Miami would all thrive because they are flush with cash. All other clubs in semi-large markets would thrive because they invest enough in youth, and can still buy solid players to compete. Teams like: KC, Portland, and Columbus are going to have their youth constantly pipped by the large teams, and suffer a painful death.
So, while the current system has its flaws, it’s probably best for modern times. A hard cap for spending is actually a totally fair way to ensure solid coaching, and proper team building are adhered to.
@Handysoccersc absolutely, and even with the hard cap, Galaxy has been a traditional power due to DP rules. No DP is moving to KC over LA.
I'm an LAFC supporter, Pro-Rel would arguably likely benefit my team the most, tbh. BUT as a fan of many other sports, I think I prefer Parity in a league.
Just look at MLS which is the top soccer league in the US, it isnt even the most popular or most watched league here. EPL and Liga MX are more popular. If our top league isnt even popular what makes Tactical Manager and all these people tbat want ProRel that by having it all of a sudden MLS interest would grow? It won't! If MLS isnt more popular than Liga MX and EPL then USL and lower leagues are in a much worse spot than MLS is! Until we make MLS and USL more popular than EPL and Liga MX than everyone can start thinking about ProRel cause interest would be there.
I think the recent FA Cup news highlights one of the points I made. Regardless of the system, open or closed, the Top league will determine the best way for it to participate in a tournament.... whether that is the FA Cup... or Open Cup.
the mlspa will veto pro-rel unons hate competition
I've got this job where no matter how badly I do I get to keep it. That's how I'm posting this during work (it Rocks BTW!) about Pro/Rel. Yes, yes very dangerous
I mean, not really the same thing at all.
Do you think it’s fair that - Chelsea can spend a $1 billion and finish mid table; simultaneously, Luton spends a fraction of that, and is a relegation scrap. Who actually did worse? I’d argue Chelsea.
So, modern pro/rel is just rich getting richer, and poor staying poor.
@@Phogadacbietso because the saudis are trying to tap in to the game you use that as an excuse to hinder the growth and culture here in the states? Makes sense.
@@Phogadacbiet Luton has 200 million dollars in the bank and are in the prem. 10 years ago they were not even in a pro league. Id say Luton are doing better than Chelsea, relatively
@@urmomlovesmymilksteak not really just Saudis. Fenway sports group. Glazers. W/e the consortium owning Chelsea. Every big club in the premier league is using the spam unlimited cash, so they’re never actually in danger of being relegated. Ergo, pro rel only hurts bottom 5 sides who don’t have that ownership
@@ian_r125 I mean, sure they’re doing better relative to what they spend. However, only one is realistically going to be in a relegation scrap. Why’s that? Because pro-rel in modern times only affects 10 teams (bottom 5 of Top league and top 5 of top 5 in second league)
Cant compare NFL fans..Would MLB support it's clubs if relegated?! Probably not . San Jose can't even sell out 18,000 stadium now, if relegated only diehards show up. I guess it would be market by market scenario