Are most circuit breakers now obsolete? - Amendment 3 update to BS7671
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 11 июн 2024
- Yo! In todays video we are talking about the Amendment 3 update to BS7671, Bi-Directional Circuit protection and what I've been up to!
If you enjoy electrical content please subscribe to the channel and checkout my links below 👇
M Y W E B S I T E ⚡
residualcurrent.com/
M Y L O A D O U T 🛠️
residualcurrent.com/pages/loa...
B I G B O O T S D I S C O U N T 🥾
bigboots.co.uk/?ref=4s3760y77o - Use code RESIDUAL
U N I L I T E D I S C O U N T 🔦
unilite.co.uk/?ref=RESIDUAL - Use code RESIDUAL
J O I N T H E C H A N N E L 🤝
/ @residualcurrent
I N S T A G R A M 📷
/ residualcurrent
T I K T O K ♪
vm.tiktok.com/ZM86U2jjG/
The works carried out in the video and the opinions shared are my own, and not representative of the associates and companies in the video.
This content is purely for entertainment purposes and is in no way a "how to", tutorial or educational video.
Please consult an electrician when dealing with any electrical installations.
#electricianlife #electrical #electricalengineering 
Наука
Comment on the BS7671:2018 A3 DPC - electrical.theiet.org/bs-7671/updates-to-18th-edition/
BEAMA Technical Bulletin - www.beama.org.uk/resourceLibrary/beama-technical-bulletin---connection-of-unidirectional-and-bidirectional-protective-devices.html
Good to see you back on RUclips Mike. No need to apologise for lack of content, your true fans will understand.
Thanks bro ❤️
Good luck on the new stuff.
With this new amendment I can now see myenergi telling you on a warranty claim “oh I can see a bidirectional device not fitted we cant approve the warranty”
Glad you're back boss!
Thank you for your time .
Good to see you Mike. Hope all is well bud ⚡👍😎
RETURN OF THE MAC 🎶 good to see you and your knowledge back lad 👌
Haha very kind! It’s good to be back 🤝🏼
Good to see you bud!
Awesome stuff Mike
Quality 👍by the way missed you at CEF earlier.
You was in Coop.
Martin
Pro Vision property and electrical services 👊⚡⚡
It is my understanding that the issue is the trip coil burning out as it remains energized once the device has tripped. Makes sense as the power will remain on the "output" terminals, but this won't happen on the majority of solar as it is grid tied. As soon as the device trips then the solar inverter will switch of. I am wondering if the use of single pole RCBO's are more of a problem if there is a neutral earth fault. Interestingly my SMA inverter instructions recommends NOT supplying it from an rcd and if you do it must be 100ma. That is an 12 year old inverter things may be different now. Interesting how these issues are only just starting to show up now when d solar as been about for a good 13 years
So if you don’t use a Bi-directional device on solar installs for example it can damage the MCB, so the manufacturers have put into their warranty’s that if they break because of this it’s not their problem?
I asked engineers about this way back at the start of solar and everyone seemed to think it wasn't a problem. How come the mighty IET only now have got their arse in gear? Are they going to pay to put all the installs right?
Because the IET is usually a decade behind the real world - by their own admission. With solar on it's own it probably isn't as much, but with battery storage now becoing popular and island mode now appearing it problably is starting to be more of an issue. We've had this with the first couple of goes at AFDD's with the stupid lookup likelyhood of lightning which thankfully got quickly abandoned, to the then EV charing points about having PEN protection and all that
If they are saying they don’t function they’ve also just made every single devices todate ineffective since AC flows in both directions by definition 🤣🤣👍
The unidirectionality of "usual" devices only comes from the fact that most RCBO etc. in the UK are based on a microcontroller, right? Reason for my question is I'm based in Germany and we are told that it absolutely doesn'T matter how you connect RCDs, RCBOs etc. and they do not have any markings on them whatsoever, whether one terminal is the load side and one the grid side of it (they are solely based on the electro-magnetic and bimetallic principle).
Would love to hear your comment on it! :)
Oh and by the way get well! Wish you the best!
As long as you're using a RCD type A that's correct.
With type B RCD it's a bit different, because of the electronics inside.
@@wiedappeven most of the type b work in both directions 😅
@@circuitbreaker1434 Yes, they do. However: The internal PSU doesn't like being repeatedly cut off from power, after being constantly connected to it for months. Therefore it is technically better to connect them in the right way.
A PSU will always be a PSU, even inside an RCD.
@@wiedapp hi, just wondering why the PSU doesn't like repeatedly being turned on and off ?
Yes Mike! Been waiting for one of your videos! Hope all is well dude 👍🏼
Thanks man, I’m all good!
@@residualcurrent🙏
Mike Page - Legend 💪
Look at you Mr black hat. Yes bro 💪
Top man is back
I recently bought the amendment 2 brown books to do my 18th edition. Will these be no good now?
They're still current - AM3 is a small amendment which you'll be able to read on the IET website upon publication.
I have already been C2'ing installations during EICR's because RCD's aren't bidirectional when protecting solar/ wind power which have burnt out on the solenoid. Initially it was because if the test button doesn't work = C2 but after Mark Allisons video last year I've been amending my comments to list "needs a bidirectional rcd". Biggest issue being that not every manufacturer is making it easy to find out and not every technical helpline has someone at the end of it that knows if their product is or isn't.
Hats off to the chap on Efixx comments the other day that told me to phone M2, their technical helpline is one of the best for knowledge on their products I've had to deal with.
Sadly the latest EICR with an RCD issue on solar I C2'd has gone radio silent, possibly due to the amendment dropping a couple days later and realising they potentially have thousands of installs nation wide which they're now liable for the design and rectification of.
If it burns out the coil, there is something hugely wrong with your inverter, because anti-islanding should shuit it down, and that is mandatory.
There needs to be some perspective here. People coring a lack of bidirectional protection an automatic C2 would only really possibly be where RCDs are supposed to be there for fault protection. The vast vast majority of renewable circuits are surface mounted and not on TT installations so would not need additional RCD protection anyway.
This is a problem that needs sorting and releasing a new amendment is precisely what should be done to do that but it is really not the huge issue in terms of how many devices are out there as people are suggesting imho.
Bi-directional RCBOs sounds like a good idea on circuits with microgeneration but… please correct me if I’m wrong …aren’t most RCBOs inherently bi-directional? They typically rely on a bimetallic strip for light overload, and magnetic coil for big overloads, plus a toroidal transformer carrying line and neutral with a detection coil to trip in case of an imbalance. I don’t see why any of these components would be directional? Is it really just a labelling issue?
I believe uni-directional RCBOs if powered from the load side have the potential for the solenoid and RCD logic board to burn out as they remain energised, proteus did a good video explaining it, the bi-directional RCBO’s have an additional contact internally.
I believe that this same level of protection can be achieved with and MCB and RCCB both of which have generally been bi-directional for years, do check specs though, verso have a little PV board that does exactly this 🤝🏼
@@residualcurrent But if the microgeneration (inverter) detects no grid, It shuts down almost instantly and doesn't generate any power, to "back feed" a RCBO.
Having a Bisdirectional would leave an extra level of safety especially if its just a drop in replacement rcbo, on any future installs.
I'm no expert in these matters, not by any means. I'm just an older bloke that had little to do with RCDs having worked in the '80s. It's about 2 things from what I can tell. The manual test button being held in for an extended period, which is the main concern, and devices that do not switch the neutral.
The test button part is obvious, but the neutral part may not be. From what I've read about the ICs used etc no RCD latches the earth fault state - ie once the imbalance through the CT ceases the coil current is reduced back to pre-trip condition (there is always minor current through the trip coil with electronic types). This is backed up by actually experimenting with several
'directional' RCD/RCBOs available in Australia, the trip is repeatedly fired with supply on the wrong side and you can hear it but once the imbalance stops so does the firing. Of course, there may well be an RCD out there that does latch the condition and does place high current through the coil essentially until it burns out.
Imagine you have a non-neutral switching electronic RCD, a N/E fault downstream of the RCD, and supply on the wrong side which will keep the electronics working post trip. The RCD will trip but imbalance potentially remains present due to the N/E fault, so the coil is left with high current indefinitely.
A magnetic RCD would have a similar issue with N/E faults since the coil is powered by the CT directly but I'm not sure if it would cause a problem since it's only trying to disrupt the hold-in magnet rather than whacking the heck out of the trip mechanism like electronics do.
Ensuring the use of neutral switching RCDs will address N/E faults, switching the test circuit addresses excessively long presses of the test button.
Happy for anyone to make any comments about the above to explain why it may be incorrect.
@@GraemeMcKeague the issue is when a solar panel system is wired into a consumer unit, They typically wire the load side of the RCBO from the solar inverter so are always receiving load on the load side of the circuit breaker (it’s always back feeding when inverter is making power) so it might destroy the RCBO circuitry if it’s not bi-directional
Same would happen if using ac couple battery storage system when it is discharging the power to the house it will be backfeeding via the load side of the RCBO
@@GraemeMcKeague In normal operation the PV is constantly back feeding the RCBO, as Mike has answered that can potentially damage the circuitry inside the RCBO. Especially when they operate under faults or the test button is pressed. With Hybrid inverters and battery storage the flow of energy is consistently in both directions so its essential we start to use true bidirectional devices.
I've always thought it dodgy when I saw installs have things like solar on the load side of an RCBO. I couldn't quite say what was wrong, from what I know about the way RCBOs are designed (not an expert), but it's always seemed a bit howyadoin.
Nope, it is not dodgy. With anti islanding, you are even allowed to feed in from a small inverter through a normal socket, in reverse (in Germany, and other countries) !!
How do you explain that AC is alternating for old devices so they won’t work for a fault that is in the reverse phase ! And since inverters only supply the busbar sub circuits have single direction power flow ( ignoring AC ) and have their appropriate protection as required.
This is as daft as double insulated core SWA’s 🤣
Get yourself a fuse, they don’t care.