Why Stannis Will Burn Shireen In The Books
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 3 май 2024
- In this video we talk about one of the craziest twists in A Game of Thrones, when Stannis decides to burn his daughter Shireen. We will try to figure out what will cause him to do this in the books and take a look at a few different theories. One from ancient mythology, one that is generally considered the most popular current fan theory, as well as a new theory I would like to add to the mix based on some things learned when looking at magical connections between Elden Ring and A Song of Ice and Fire.
Развлечения
I really sympathise with George and Stannis for their weakness for redheads
And Jon
It's a glamour... my wife has it
Yeah I feel has led to some real problems in my life too
Same. Still not entirely over my ginger ex. Kissed by fire indeed!
I, as well.
While I do think the “Shireen being burned to raise Jon” has a lot of symbolic meaning and foreshadowing, I agree that I don’t think Stannis would choose to do that. I like the idea that it’s brought about in the fight against the Others in some way
When I saw the episode where the princess was sacrificed, I was traumatized. I loved that little girl as much as Sir Davos 😢
No offense but if that's the case, seek help or reach out to a family member. I prey for you...
@@j3fr0uk pray for me or prey on me?
I wish we didn't know this one.
Yeah the show could have omitted it and had a better show... and not been a massive spoiler for the real material
This was the moment that made me quit the show
It was already noticeably dropping off in quality, but once it was obvious they were about to burn Shireen, I realized that not only was I going to be spoiled if I kept watching but all the substance & meaning would be stripped from the plot points leaving only shallow shock & awe 😔
It sucked but I'm really glad I got out when I did 😅
@@jsull81 You are a better person than I. 🙌🙌
@@BDnevernind lol, idk about that, maybe just more stubborn 😅
But it's funny, now when I hear different things that happened on the show it literally sounds like some crazy fan-fic type stuff, lol, like the other day I heard that Bronn ended up with a seat on the small council! Like, wtf 😆
@@jsull81 Ser Bronn of the Blackwater, Lord of Highgarden, Lord Paramount of the Reach, and Master of Coin.
😂😂😂😂
@Michael talks about stuff, you have quickly become my favourite ASOIAF creator. I really love how most of your theory videos are connected to the old gods and the glass candles, as well as how well they seem to fit so thematically well with George’s work.
I agree. I had actually become jaded about ASoIaF theories because I don't think we'll get the final books. Then I discovered LmL during the pandemic, but kind of got burnt out again... Then I found Michael, and his theories are just so damn interesting and properly thought out, I'm fully invested again, whether George ever gets to publishing Winds of Winter or not.
@@inthefadeexactly. If GRRM never gets to finish the series a lot of these theories will be my official head canon
If your 3rd theory plays out in the book, I think it will be that Mel is right about the giant 'world tree' aspect of the Wall, but destroying it will be a huge mistake that lets the Others and their undead army into the south. It's been confirmed in both the main series and F&B that the Wall has magic wards that deter magical creatures (wights and dragons) from passing through/over it, so destroying it would create a huge opening.
I LOVE THIS
I think you're onto something big here. It's definitely George level cruelty, for one thing! And the dramatic irony is perfect.
Was thinking this as well, and it parallels the Blood Betrayal in the Yi Ti legends where kinslaying by the emperor caused the Long Night.
It is certainly not going to be the definitive end of the Others since the real sacrifice will be Daenerys.
She is the dragon, daughter of death, wife of fire... she has already killed other shadows in Qarth. She is the princess who was promised to us... for sacrifice.
That’s exactly what I’m thinking tho another possibility is that they’ll do it when the wall about the fall in a last ditch attempt to boost its magic to stop the others from crossing it
I would like to see the twist being that Melisandre sets up the sacrifice because of king's blood, and then last-minute Stannis subs himself in for the sacrifice, to Mel's and everyone's surprise. IMO it would really fit with his character if he becomes convinced Jon is the actual Azor Ahai.
This would also explain the horrible show moment where all of the others die because a single one was killed. If instead, they all die because the world tree that kept them alive is destroyed, then it makes a lot more sense. Plus it makes Stannis Azor Ahai in a way for paying sacrificing his daughter (instead of wife) to end the long night.
George has said after the fact that people’s reactions to things playing out in the show has cause him to rethink certain things. In the books, it’s always been clear the stanis isn’t super religious, he is sorta just trying to use the red lady for her power. Maybe this is one of the things he has decided didn’t feel right after seeing it play out and decided to change it.
"I will have no burnings. Pray harder." If Stannis actually initiates or agrees to this, it's character assassination.
you dont know how much may or may not happen before it does
Stannis has been heading for a breakdown. Only so far he can be pushed, and weve seen how he uses "honor" and "justice" as excuses when his ego is guiding his actions (see him assassinating his own brother. just because his claim was better doesnt make it honorable he just wanted to dress up his selfish pragmatism for his own ego)
@@OfficialChrissums Completely disagree with your interpretation. And for the video's premise to be true, Stannis will have to win the Battle of Winterfell and survive quite far into the Winds of Winter, which goes against the idea that he's on the verge of some kind of breakdown. One does not have a breakdown from success, nor does one get desperate in victory.
Thanks for finding that great example of foreshadowing!
@@OfficialChrissumsStannis doesn't know who assassinated his brother. Why do you think he suspects himself?
I’m not sure how the logistics of Stannis getting back to the wall would work.
But I think he will choose to burn Shireen because ‘Davos’ will agree with Melissandre. Stannis listens to Davos more than Mel, she knows that. And she can create glamours when she has something of the person she’s creating the illusion from. She specifically says she could use a bag of finger bones, which Davos lost, to do so. Nobody knows about Davos’ mission to Skagos, except the Manderly’s.
I think her grayscale will start back, making this decision a little easier.
Re: the second theory. Sorry if this is a repeat point, but why couldn't Mel lie to Stannis? Tell Stannis the sacrifice was to give him good weather, but actually do it to resurrect Jon.
I have a feeling Shireen is being dishonest when she is telling Davos that the comment section is almost never unhinged. That should be enough of a reason to justify Stannis' decision anyway.
I was wondering about her lies and slander there too, and to kind, honest Davos of all people! I've never seen an unhinged comment section, especially when discussing the works of George Railroad Martin!
9:01 I have a number of issues with Shireen's sacrifice being the means to bring back Jon, the first having to do with his status as a warg. When wargs die in their human body, it's possible for them to transfer to one of their 'skins;' in light of the emphasis placed on warging and second lives in ADWD in particular, combined with Jon's wolf dreams, it's highly likely that his 'spirit' or consciousness has passed on to Ghost. Whereas Beric's 'spirit' could be returned to his body via Fire Wighting, similar to Qyburn's comment about smells lingering in a room being similar to human presence and life after death, the fact that Jon's spirit would not be with his body creates a problem for straight up reviving him that way.
My other issue is that it feels like a cop-out for George to cover different means of life after death that exist in the North and beyond the wall, like skin-changing, wights, the weirwood net and whatever the hell Coldhands is (probably a wight being warged into by somebody...), and then turn around and use a method we've known about since AGOT and which has only a basic connection to Northern forms of magic to bring back John.
If I had to guess, I think Coldhands is probably a glimpse of Jon's fate; maybe the Mutineers leave his body on the other side of the wall ('with the Wildlings, where he belongs), and his corpse revives as an ice-wight. Jon is able to 're-possess' his reanimated corpse, just as someone has been possessing Coldhands, and this is how he returns. It would have the advantage of exploring aspects of reanimation that George has discussed through the POV of a major character: the loss of memory mentioned by Beric, and the influence of the animal host on the warg mentioned by Varanmyr and which Jon has already experienced himself through his bond with Ghost.
Beric was brought back several times without a sacrifice. Not sure that it's needed to bring John back.
Lady Stoneheart was brought back by Beric sacrificing himself, but since he was already dead many times over that doesn't mean much.
Shereen, also has the wildling's eyeballing her because of the greyscale.. this is going to be a factor.. Jon, and Val argue this in the books at castle black..
Many times it is foreshadowed that her greyscale is not gone, but in remission. That eventually it will flare up again and be just as contagious as it ever was. This would be a significant reason to burn her.
The disease might also become active and kill her. Only for her to then get back up and as a wight start infecting people. Someone could capture her and the choice would be made to end her once and for all. Whoever did this would likely also become infected (Stannis' wife?) and have to be put down as well.
The only people in the area possibly immune to it would be Melisandre because she is a revived firewight and Patchface because he is a revived waterwight. Both of them are already dead and just haven't stopped moving.
Maybe Shireen's sacrifice fuels Jon's resurrection, but unintentionally. They burn her for another reason (and that has to be an important one) and may get a resurrected Jon as a side effect.
12:50. There is also the Norse Mythology. Shireen = Hel, Loki's daughter. Loki / Loge had three children - a giant serpent, a wolf, and a half/dead daughter. The half-dead / half alive daughter(usually depicted with the left half of her face dead) leads the armies of the dead at Ragnarök. It could be that Stannis burns her in order that she doesn't become a wight / queen of the wights. Thus as his last act on earth, Stannis might save the world from a worse enemy...
I dont buy it. Stannis isnt a heroic figure. Hes likeable in his own way and hes not evil or totally unjust, but put aside his ideals, his honor, etc and it becomes very clear that, at the end of the day, hes out for himself. He doesnt want to be king because its his right and duty, he wants it because he feels its been denied to him through trickery. Its ultimately ego driving him its just dressed up as honour as it is for many characters in the story. Stannis isnt driven by his love for the realm or whatever hes driven by the massive chip on his shoulder
@@OfficialChrissums I mostly agree, he isn't "a hero" but I believe he definitely sees himself as honorable, and therefore fighting for an honorable cause. That's part of the reason he feels cheated, because he doesn't cheat to win in the same way the lords who don't honor his right to ascend the Throne do. The irony of this is in reaction to there "lawlessness/cheating" he's willing to use just about any underhanded tactics like blood magic, sacrificing innocent people ect which are by any reasonable persons standards unethical tactics. He is the definition of (lawfully evil) he believes as long as he's following the rules of hierarchy and succession he's intitled to take what's his by those rights alone, using whatever authority and advantages his position gives him, the same way he thinks Robert did when (from Stannis's perspective) he wrongfully denied him The Storm Lands even though they should have been his by natural law and out of consideration of his efforts during the war. So while ego plays a part, like it does with literally all of these people (especially the ones raised to be lords, princes, ect" I don't think Stannis has any more of an ego than any of them. Also he has a right to feel cheated by everyone who overlooked him because of lack of respect and personal ambition, ignoring their duty and the same laws that entitled them to their positions.
Given that Martin told the showrunners that Shireen gets sacrificed, and that John gets rezzed on the show, I don't see why he would conceal that she was sacrificed *to* rez Snow if that's what he had in mind. I think either the change-the-weather option has to be basically what he has planned, or his plan must involve a bunch of stuff that didn't even make it into the show.
The theory makes sense.
What bothers me about it is the role of Bran in the story. I assumed that the story of Bran will explain us what the weirwoods are and their powers. I assumed Bran useing the power of the weirwoods will have some significants. If the wall is a major part of the weirwoods system, I would assume destroying the wall would destroy the weirwoods system as a whole. If this is the case, the whole journey of Bran would be rendered to nothing. What is his role in the story?
Anyone saying "Stannis wouldn't do that but maybe Selyse would" has had their interpretation of the characters heavily influenced by the show; Book Selyse feels way LESS likely to do it than Book Stannis. Book Selyse never had the wince-worthy "having a bunch of miscarriages sent her MAD" characterisation the show invented; if anything she was overly protective of her only daughter due to the difficulties she'd had bearing children. Meanwhile Book Stannis was never shown to be particularly affectionate towards her, most of which in the show was transplanted from Davos (in the books there's an implication Davos is so paternal towards Shireen precisely because she's lacking that attention from her father).
It's certainly possible that Selyse could be influenced to do it by Melisandre, but you can say the same about Stannis and he'd take less pushing to get there. It's also arguable that the sacrifice would be more impactful to her character than Stannis' due to her caring more about Shireen, but on the other hand Stannis is a much more major character so it's more impactful to the *story as a whole* if he's the one to do it.
Given the Stannis comparison to Agamemnon he is killed by his wife for sacrificing their daughter
Instead of the maiden made of light, Poor Shireen becomes "the maiden that almost got it Right" and by that I mean she should have ran away but now she's the Maiden Lit on fire actually producing light....
You're becoming one of my favorite youtubers in this space. I like how you bring in real-world history and explore possible inspirations, and I also like your analysis. Good stuff. Subbed.
Edit: Nice theory, that's a great point.
Love this channel
I think that since a big factor in all of these prophecies seems to be that it's never quite showing the seer the subject they think it is, just like Summerhall perhaps burning because the king saw Dani coming out of the flames with her dragons and thought it was him, it could be that she thinks she sees a sacrifice has to be made, perhaps to bring Stannis back from the dead, and instead it brings back Jon Snow.
Your one of the ones that thinks the king thought he had perky titties and a nice ass
Wonder if it’s a case of the wrong sacrifice, in the wrong place at the wrong time… but otherwise the right idea. I thought ultimately it will be Dany who is sacrificed into the Net via a burning cold pool. But by Jon with Brans help…. Stannis sacrificed his wife’s family members, killed his brother and tried to kill his brothers son. He’s going to get it wrong. Also wonder if he and his forces will get trapped somewhere and starve to death. Ned and Davos saved him once…. But since he killed his brother he’s been too weak to survive that experience again…. If Mel makes a glamour of a supporter into Davos and he helps burn Shireen it would be heartbreaking for her to die believing Davos was doing it…. Even more than Stannis.
Why do so many people think Stannis knowingly killed Renly? Is it from not reading the books?
Love your videos! Melisandre is my favorite character in both the show and books, but I’m curious how you think she will die?
you should link the videos where you talk about past theories in the descritoon. itll help getting the newbies hooked too 😂
@Micheal Talks About Stuff I think it is happening at winterfell is a pretty good chance of happening like I feel like maybe stannis will take winterfield but maybe like Roose Bolton will flee and escape back to the dreadfort and maybe stannis's men or decimated he's got very few left that are injured and so they bring Jon Snow's body back to winterfell to put it in the crips like they do all of the Lords of house Stark you know even though he's not technically the Lord there they figure since he was one of the last living members they would do it and sherene comes and so does the little ugly Florent Queen as well as Melisandre and you know it comes up that you know you might have a better chance of winning status if we sacrifice sharing you know maybe I can make all your troops be healed or if we sacrifice Shireen it will make roose Bolton die like it worked with the other five Kings LOL but secretly her motives are to burn Serene to get Jon Snow resurrected it's just stannis doesn't fully know that. What do you think about that? Somewhere along the lines maybe a possibility perhaps maybe? Possibly? LOL I know I sound fired up I'm having a great day spent all night recording some music and then today I'm literally sitting next to the Sabine River catfishing and watching your video at the same time and commenting at the same time lol
I swear, every time I hear your voice, I think, "Fire of Learning switched from Historical Topics to ASOIAF" 😂 love it
Good vid brother. Please get a better mic i bet you can get a better one from $20-$100 rooting 4 u keep it up love the content
I think the third theory is the one i like best for now. But i think there could be an additional layer that could make Stanis's decision easier - if Shireen is injured. She's not thought of well by the Wildlings due to the grayscale. Patchface has some ominous foreshadowing too. Either or both of these could lead to her being attacked or kidnapped. If it's a "she''s going to die very soon anyway' situation, it could tip the scales. I think that would be a less thematically satisfying event, but I think something has to happen to change the situation enough that it's a more urgent choice
16:54 It potentially gives you a way to melt a hole in the Wall that doesn't require an undead dragon that shouldn't have even been able to cross the wall to begin with....
EDIT: This also gives the Others a way to march south of the Wall without bringing down the entire wall itself; which means that the Chekhov's Horn of Winter that Sam is carrying around can still be used to bring down the wall in it's entirety, likely at the story's end.
I think burning the Weirwood at the Nightfort along with Shireen would almost certainly melt that section of the wall, allowing the Others a route to pass south through
Logistics become less of a concern when you consider all the symbolism and the very real possibility that while dead Jon becomes a night king figure out his body is stolen by others or he becomes possessed and fights for the dead for a while. That would make Shireen's sacrifice stopping the others and bringing Jon back and she prolly will burn a tree as well and that could be what helps or starts bringing the wall down.
It makes perfect sense to sacrifice her to end the storm and save the army, even in the show. Stannis believes that he is the saviour Azor Ahai and must win to save the realm of men from the white walkers, as well as saving himself and his army from the snowstorm. Melisandre only realises that Jon is Azor Ahai once the execution happens, because her visions are only shadows and she can't see faces (which is why she doesn't know that the two riders coming to the wall in her vision are Jeyne Poole rather than Arya). The only confusing thing for this to happen in the books is how does Shireen and Melisandre get to Stannis' army in the storm, not the other way around. In the books, they are already planning to burn Yara Greyjoy to end the storm and save their army, as she also has king's blood just like Shireen, but Yara presumably escapes or is freed.
Melissandre doesn't actually need to be at the Wall for Jon to return from death when Shireen's death revives him as no rule has been established except King's blood is very magical. She can watch the defeat of Stannis and then head to the wall, as she is already starting to her her suspicions about Jon in the books before he is killed, to discover Jon has returned from death. I doubt that though, as Stannis' army is on its last legs (especially if Ramsey attacks his camp like in the TV show) so there's not enough time. And the killing of Shireen is likely to happen away from the Nightwatch and done secretly as dark magic is still frowned upon, so their plan to leave Castle Black is presumably to do this black magic.
And in the books Stannis doesn't need to be involved at all and is probably dead when it happens. He could be defeated in battle or die in the snow storm, or slain by Yara while she escapes, and Melissandre can learn this by raven. When Jon is killed, she can persuade Stannis' wife and loyal bodyguards who are all devoted fundamentally to her fire god that they should burn the child of Mance Rayder because he was King Beyond the Wall (they may already have the plan to do this to help Stannis, as I mention above), only to be told that the child has been taken away and switched with Gilly's child, who doesn't have the magical blood. At which point, Shireen becomes the only way to bring Jon Snow back from the dead.
I think the sacrifice that’s going to bring Jon back will be Monster, Gilly’s baby. I think it would deliver a massive gut punch since it was really messed up of Jon to separate them in the first place. They think he’s got King’s blood so it makes sense people (maybe Melisandre) would think to use him, and I think it’s pretty clear that when it comes to blood magic children and babies are the most potent source
The threat of the world tree Weirwood being burned is a pretty compelling justification for the Others showing up again with hostility. If they have some sort of greenseer-like foresight, then knowing their tree is going to be burned would justify them starting to manifest in hostility particularly around the wall, and specifically quite near the Nightfort.
I've been wondering "why are the Others attacking / hostile?" I haven't found perfect evidence to support this. The idea that their ancestral, astral home being burned is a pretty good reason to get mad.
Love the videos Michael, if I may give a comment, perhaps nothing less exciting in ASOIAF analysis videos than making predictions for WOW based on Elden Rings storyline, it paints GRRM as sort of one trick pony who has only one story in mind, aside from painting the bleak picture that he already gave up on releasing his next book, and is finding other avenues to leak his ideas.
Otherwise, thank you for the great content
And another question here wtf happened at Winterfell for Stannis to ever think of this shit? He lost. Whatever happened at Winterfell, it is not going to be good for anyone. And also this-Shireen might not be alive when she burns...or she might not be herself any longer either. And her face? Shireen is not the only girl her age in text whose face is marred/scarred. Myrcella is another girl. Myrcella, who Stannis believes is a bastard. So...yeah. Not so good for either girl.
So perhaps Stannis wins the battle, takes Winterfell, and calls his family and Mel to come down because the castle is much more secure than anywhere along the wall. They could bring Jon’s body with them at that time. That is the fastest timeline for brings my Stannis back into the presence of his daughter. I do believe there is some questions as to the timing around the pink letter, so if that comes before the battle happens, that could tighten up the timeline a bit.
Even faster meetup would be if Stannis loses the battle he is preparing for and flees back towards the wall. In the meantime, Mel and Shireen and whoever else head south with Jon’s body, perhaps based on some vision Mel has. If they meet up on the road and then bad weather sets in, that could make things seem pretty dire.
No matter what, I agree that Stannis would not agree to sacrifice Shireen for some small gain. He would need to be able to justify the reasoning to himself. And then don’t think he would be willing to make the decision from a distance. If he decides on the sacrifice, he will watch her burn.
If they burn Shireen and we know it's more than likely going to happen, what happens to the people that burn her? If we are being taught that magic comes with a price and that sacrifice (Nissa Nissa) is not what a hero should do to win, then what will happen to the people that burn her? No one is more cursed by gods than a kin slayer.
Stannis BEEN doomed. I dont see him getting out of this alive at all
@OfficialChrissums Stanis dying, I think, is a given. If he makes it out, it'll be a huge left turn. How he meets that end will be very interesting,assuming he dies after burning Shireen.
Within a couple days of the show burning Shireen burnt, I accepted it fit with book Stannis but not show Stannis. Not only was there a lack of setup but the characterization actually went in the other direction to increase the shock value. But I'm sure that was just a one-off mistake that they wouldn't do again with an even more important character!
Michael, either way it lines up well with your inference that Stannis = Present Day Night King, and Night King actually being a misunderstood trying to end the old ways and improve Westeros guy. If Stannis makes it through the war alive he may well be punished and put to death after the war for his kinslaying behavior by a postwar commission who did not understand what he was trying to achieve, like the Night King.
P.S. I am actually a bit bummed to find out that GRRM confirmed the Shireen burning, I didn't know that before seeing this video. I had anticipated an opposite, where Stannis suffers for NOT burning Shireen, i.e. grayscale spreading among his troops (the show does that sometimes - an opposite rather than something completely unrelated, i.e. Ramsay kills Roose whereas in books I suspect the flip).
Yeah something like that. I don't think Stannis will directly influence Jon's return, but rather indirectly.
Maybe burning Shireen would also revive dragons from eggs that allegedly Jace's Dragon laid in Winterfell? That could be the reason why Stannis wants Winterfell free so much.
As in Drogo's pyre, we will have a King (Stannis), a prince (Shireen) and a wizard (Meli). A darker Jon might prefer to burn all three of them.
After all, Martin likes to repeat situations, giving them a different outcome each time. With Daenerys, it is Maegi who seems resigned to death, perhaps in this new version Stannis voluntarily accepts her death, while a surprised Meli is scared shitless when she knows that they are going to burn her.
Melina sounds like Melisandre *and* Melony, her original name.
I think your theory makes a lot more sense, given Stannis' motives and principles, than him sacrificing her for weather or Jon. The only reason he would sacrifice her would be for the sake of the whole world in what seems like a very clear way.
Mel will glamour someone as Davos, who will give the order to burn Shireen. With Stannis absent from the Wall, "Davos" speaks with the king's voice. She mentioned a useful thing for a glamour is "a bag of finger bones". Conveniently Davos lost his bag of finger bones
I think it's also possible that George said the burning of Shireen will happen in the books a long time ago, but has written himself into a corner and it's just not guna happen in the books.
I have a theory that Theon will escape from Stannis which will cost him the support of the northern mountain clans so he’ll burn Shireen to get the power necessary to retake winterfell (if this ends up resembling the motivation for burning Shireen in the books I don’t think that plan will go well).
I've thought for a while after commenting in a previous video of urs that sacrificing Shireen may be the act that brings down the wall. Theres a few points I'd like to hint on to help that make sense. Your theories about the weirwoods inside the wall are crucial for understanding...wall made up of magic and trees, burn heart tree in wall, wall go down. Here's a few additional pieces I think really support the idea that sacrificing Shireen will bring down the wall/usher in the long night...
1. The subversion of prophecy as in Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn: George has stated he has taken influence from MST and the similarities are impossible to deny. And in MST the prophecy calling for the three swords is actually a false message from the storm king that actually brings about his rebirth. The same is true for Azhor Ahai and Nissa Nissa. What we think is a prophecy that will bring about a hero will actually do the opposite.
(A) How this would apply in ASOIAF is that Melisandre acts out the Azhor Ahai prophecy thinking she is birthing a savior but she really just brings down the wall.
2. It is said that when the bloodstone emperor committed blood betrayal and killed his sister the maiden of light turned her back on the world.
(A) This is a bit of foreshadowing telling us something real bad happened because of something similar happening. Additionally some theorize that BE was AA.
3. The fact George points out Shireen burning as one of the big twists always sat wrong with me. She is a very minor character in the books and no offence I don't really give a wet fart about her. For him to list shireens sacrificewith things like bran being king and hodor, her death has to be very significant.
Your theories are the best out there and you are doing the best job of getting at the main answers George will address in his books.
I can only imagine this in a "the world is ending and the only hope we have is king's blood" scenario, but even then, why would Stannis sacrifice his daughter instead of volunteering to be the sacrifice (which would be way more metal)? Other men can lead an army. Jon will probably be back alive at this point.
Stannis could sacrifice Shireen to “activate” his fake Lightbringer, like the first Azor Ahai did with Nissa Nissa. If it doesn’t work because he’s not Alora Ahai, it’d really suck for him.
Are you time traveling GRRM giving us the juice before ascension? Love all your theories
Poor Shireen 😢 Solid theory while comparing elden ring
I think that Shireen will start spreading Greyscale and that's why Stannis burns her. Maybe.
That's what I think. Her greyscale will start spreading, which will be a death sentence for her anyway. If other people become infected, then Stannis won't have much a choice.
It makes sense to me that they would do this, have it doom them all by destroying the wall but not the Others, and the resurrection of Jon being like an accident that no one expected.
Then Jon has to repeat the process at the heart of winter with dany as the sacrifice to actually defeat the Others.
I can see Melisandre lying to Stannis and telling him that his "fire" that was "burning low" would burn at full strength again and he could produce another shadow baby to kill Bolton if he burned his daughter. He'd be pissed as hell after he realized she was "wrong"(what she'd likely say or it was Rhilors will) and jon got revived instead. Im probably way off of any possibility of that being what will happen, just a theory i thought would be interesting and understandable since i can't see how Stannis could do it any other way. He would need to be led to believe its his daughters life or the kingdoms lmwoukd be destroyed in the end and he had to choose to save his daughter for a short time more or save the kingdom. The need to kill her to save the world would be the same, Stannis would just have to learn after the fact that it wont be him saving it.
Not related to the video, but there are a number of giant rivers running underneath the Lands Between. And near Bloodraven's cave the is a underground river. I think Bran, Meera and Hodor will make their way south of the Wall using these rivers, shortening the way back
I think theory #1 and #3 aren't mutually exclusive. Trying to kill the others IS asking the gods for better weather. It's just that the weather is winter.
7:00 ish. I think Mel might tell Stan that Burning Shireen will make him personally turn into full on Akira azor ahai. But I don't think this entire" Stan back to the wall" scenario will happen
Shireen had it coming...she said "Dad, you are not the mannis"
I think Stannis will take Winterfell. In the Stark's Crypts he will find out about Jon Snow's real parents (either through help of Bran's magic or Jon's direwolf), and he will decide to head back to the wall. At the same time Patchface will do some fucked up shit to Shireen, resulting in spread of greyscale. When Stannis is back he will have to decide whom to save by burnning the other: Jon Snow the Azor Ahai or his own daughter Shireen.
If Martin says Stannis is the one who decide to sacrifice his daughter the only way I see it bringing back Jon is if Melisandre lies, telling Stannis that his daughters is being sacrificed to help him *him* to fufull is role and win his Throne, but instead she plots to revive Jon with the sacrifice instead. In doing so sealing Stannis's fate because if Stannis is even considering doing something like that it will be a desperatration sacrifice to avoid some unfortunate fate that he can't overcome through any effort of his own (as far as he knows, obviously Jon could've been used but he doesn't know that.) More evidence for this is the fact that The Red Witch obviously has taken note of Jon snow and thinks he might be her true champion of light. As soon as Stannis has a problem she can't slove she will dump him like lame race horse who can't carry out his task.
THIS theory explains for the "why" and "how." If you use this theory credit me, I think it's solid. 🙏😅
Melisandre has been known to misunderstand her own visions from time to time, and she tries to decypher them from a very narrow sighted point of view. She is a bit (or a lot) of a fanatic, and will do anything to achieve what she thinks that needs to be done. That being said, I'm more inclined to believe that Stannis will get convinced to sacrifice his daughter for somethign HE wants to achieve - whether it's the weather or whatnot - but Melisandre's magic will backfire to resurrect Jon instead. I don't know how will Stannis cope with that result though, but I do believe that Queen Selise might take her own life over it.
I can't see Stannis burning Shireen in the books. Just on a purely geographical basis it would be difficult given that Stannis is roughly a two week ride from the Wall & that's without taking into account the snows. Given that Stannis is about to fake his own death following the battle with the Freys (his conversation with Justin Massey in the released Theon chapter from Winds all but confirms this) I can definitely see a scenario where Selyse burns Shireen to try & resurrect Stannis. She may even think she succeeded when Stannis reveals he is alive & summons her to Winterfell. There's definitely some dramatic irony in that. Another point I'd like to make is that Stannis' camp is very much split into two groups, the Queen's men & the King's men. I do not believe that the King's men would stand idly by & allow Shireen to be burned. They still follow the Seven & would be absolutely disgusted at the idea of sacrificing a child.
I came across this passage in the Torah. Emor 21:9:
"If a [Priests] daughter becomes desecrated through adultery she desecrates her father; she shall be burned in fire."
There is an esoteric line in ASOIAF between Royals and Priests. Some might even say that it is non-existent. Robert defiled Stannis's matrimony bed with an act of infidelity. Stannis's daughter was born with Grey Scale, and as this video and the show go on to have her burned, I feel like this is significant.
There's a further parallel to be drawn between the faith of the R'hllorists and the faith of the Seven, to the real world parallels between the Christian Church and the Jewish Faith.
What if Stannis decided that Shireen could be sacrificed in the event of his death. Stannis is killed in the battle and his body is rushed back to Mel at the wall. Mel burns Shireen to resurrect Azor Ahai, but Stannis remains cold... John is later found locked in the ice cells alive.
maybe it will done as more of a mercy killing and maybe the justification will be that shireens greyscale gets sigficantly worse or something
Excellent theory. If we go with it, you have to clarify how Mel will convince Stannis to trust her on this without at the same time admitting she was wrong about AA. "By the way, random guy is the Big Man, you're nothing. Now let me kill your daughter for ... reasons!"
Someones grey death sleeps to be awaken again
I'm really hoping that Mel saves Shireen - I think this is foreshadowed when she saves Davos's sons. Maybe she replaces Shireen with Patchface (what happens when you burn a prophet of the drowned god?)
I'd also be interesting if Shireen becomes a red priestess somehow.
Or maybe stone girl + fire = stone dragon girl?
I just feel like it needs to mean something.
I like this theory very much! Do you think, this will be the reason, why the wall will break down? Mel accidentally crushing the whole wall?
When they burn Shireen to burn the wierwood to kill the white walkers and resurrect Jon, it's going to melt a big ass hole in the wall...allowing passage through for the still alive white walkers
I think if stannis loses or is forced to retreat to the wall and rickon dies then jon snow becomes his only hope for not dying and in his eyes the world ending due to him azor ahai dying it may be a way of rationalising it without the azor ahai part becoming an issue because if a person who proclaimed you to be the chosen one then changed her mind and asked you to kill your child to save the actual chosen one I don't think anyone would listen
With option 2, why do you assume that Stannis will be intending to resurrect Jon? There’s precedence for misinterpretation of the “waking dragons from stone” being misinterpreted, so I think it’s quite possible that they intend to wake a dragon through Shireen’s sacrifice and instead resurrect Jon. This could happen at Winterfell if Stannis requests for Jon’s body to be brought to the crypts.
That being said, after watching your video I’m leaning towards a mix of all three options. Stannis and Mel might intend to burn the Nightfort heart tree and break winter with the sacrifice, but instead they could call down doom - what if it breaks the Wall/starts the Long Night?
I’m reminded of the Yi Ti myth of the Blood Betrayal, where the Bloodstone Emperor’s murder of his kin is what starts the Long Night. We already heard the tale of another cardinal sin at the Nightfort (Guest right) so perhaps we shall see the consequences of kinslaying.
I’m into the LML moon meteor/comet theory, and the books frequently refer to comets/shooting stars as dragons, so I could see the burning of Shireen calling down/coinciding with these “dragons” falling on the Wall and bringing the winds of winter (a la Agamemnon).
The silver lining in all of this would be the other dragon woken from stone; Jon; who might be resurrected as the unintended side effect. Perhaps Mel will take his body to the Nightfort for some reason, or he will go along in Ghost and lose his second life and body trying to save Shireen…
One: stannis would not burn his daughter
Two: stannis is at winterfell not the wall, it’s like several days trip to the wall if not a week. Also it’s a blizzard. So stannis going to the wall to burn his daughter is insane
Three: stannis made shireen his heir and hired sellswords to sit her on the throne.
It might be Melisandre that does it or the queens men maybe but I sincerely doubt shireen will burn purposefully
I clicked this because I misread the title and I’m still laughing lol
I haven't fully read the books but i never got why anyone was angry over this. It was consistent for show Stannis's arc and was done really well and unexpected. My thought was wow I hope George does this in the books too (by naturally working his way up to it), because it's an awesome moment and is a very George thing. But then i saw all the negativity that they ruined the character by doing this
Done really well...
Considering 20 men destroyed his camp which is stupid also add that his character is that of someone with an unfaltering will he lasted a year in the siege of storms end yet because a little blizzard he sacrifices his daughter 🤣nah the show fucked up big time
@@rhysoneill7399 unfaltering will to do whatever it takes to win and stand by his campaign as rightful king, there is no other character with the will to do that -IF he was to truly believe the lord of light stuff. He is unrelenting, it's literally his character on the show. If he thinks something is right and might work why tf would he refuse to do it from love of a daughter? That doesn't sound like stannis
I do like this theory, but I think it banks too much on a conclusion of Elden Ring. Which does make sense but GRRM wrote the setup and world building of Elden Ring, not the actual storyline or endings. So the themes being similar works out, but I don't think the conclusions are going to be parallels.
Though I'm probably in a minority of the fanbase, because I do think Stannis sacrificing his daughter is meant to turn out to be for nothing. Everyone chants 'Stannis the Mannis' but I think his entire arc is meant to show the ideal-by-the-book King will still fall to temptation and prophecy
shireen, the kindling maiden
Better weather is such a massive understatement. Stannis can’t just bunker down and wait out the winter, it could last ten years.
Also, I totally disagree with the notion that “Stannis wouldn’t do that.” Stannis is the most prideful person in the entire story. He has seen the red woman use king’s blood to perform actual magic. If the lord of light honors his sacrifice on his daughter it’s like a cosmic confirmation that he’s been right all along, Robert should have given him storms end, he’s the true king, and everything he did up to that point was worth it.
So Shireen is Nisa Nisa you say. Boom
Shireen just taking L after L, damn...
you know what will happen at the end of the books? The same that happened to the blue wizards
I still think that burning shireen will bring back john, but I don't think that they'll burn her thinking that that whats what will happen. They'll burn shireen for different reasons, such as to burn the world tree to help in the battle for the dawn, but what actually happens when they burn shireen and the world tree is that john wakes up, and his resurrection as azor ahai is what will help in the fight against the others. This means stannis will burn his daughter because he believes in a prophecy and then immediately be proven to not be the prince who was promised, essentially one big f u to stannis after he kinslays. I think this makes the most sense because it ties in line with the interpreting prophecy wrong bits in the books, but still lets john be the dragon that wakes from stone.
Burning Shireen being Stannis decision doesn't mean the real reason is shared. Shireen may be burned by Stannis as he's convinced it will improve the weather but Mel is actually intending to resurrect Jon having given up on Stannis and began switching sides to Jon.
Your summary of the first theory is problematic in its description. They're not just wanting better weather for increasing their odds, burning her on a heartless whim. They're freezing to death, going full Donner's Party. Without a dramatic break to the beginning of the winter winds setting in, there will be no battle, and they'll all freeze. They are desperate for a change, so they can win Winterfell, recuperate, and survive the winter.
off topic but there's something that bothers me a bit about the books.
Am I crazy or there's no dire wolves in the story except those that were found in the beginning?
There should be plenty of them north of the wall and we had a lot of chapters north of the wall but if I remember correctly there were no dire wolves. They were only mentioned. Like Leaf says "the dire wolves will outlast us all" and like yeah cool but where are they tho
It's not like they're hiding like children of the forest right?
TL:DW stannis discovers she wrote GoT s8
I don't think anyone will be burned to resurrect Jon, after all, Thoros brought Beric Dondarion back from death 6 times and never needed a sacrifice to do it
There's no way the others are on the same team as the wall, the wall was made to stop them. The trouble must be with The Heart of Winter. I also hate the idea that Mellisandre is going to be vindicated in any way... she's horrible and so is her god.
For that reason the wall was built, to keep those Weirwoods blocked with ice.
Stannis won't but there's every chance that Selyse will
Algormancy!
Stannis is going to burn Shireen, but Stannis will not be himself anymore. Why the ef would Stannis kill his daughter/heir to rez Jon? That is insane. Stannis is gonna burn Shireen to try and stop the fall of the Wall OR to hasten it when he becomes the Night's King...or is it the Knight's King? The Queen's Men and their Knight King. But never is Stannis going to ever say, "Ok folks, time to burn my only child to rez this guy who is clearly very dead and also not cooperating with me so far".
Shireen had it coming
Thoros doesn't need to kill anyone to resurrect Beric, so I think the 'burning Shireen will resurrect Jon Snow' theory is grasping at straws.
Finally someone says it.
The only time someone had to die to revive another was for Lady Stone, who had been dead in a river for 3 days. Jon has died at the wall, where “the cold preserves”.
I don’t think his corps will rot enough to require a sacrifice. I think Melasandra will give Jon a funeral right in the same manner as Thorose did, which revived Berrac.
Besides, his mind should be kept in a better state by being inside Ghost. He won't be resurrected like StoneHeart or Beric.
When Thoros performed the last kiss, it didn't bring Beric back to life. He is a fire wight at that point instead of a living human.