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It's for removing dust... potentially bad dust, the kind where you toss the 3M in the decon burn bag along with the rest of the stuff it sucked up... Off to the incinerator for all of it...
You want to have fun with your home made anamonotor, I did thins in Jr high school some 40 plus years ago with my science class, I kinda blew away my teacher And he was a diving instructor outside of school. The unit was set up to see who could pull up the liquid the highest on the scale most kids didn't raise the fuild very high, I almost pulled the liquid out of the unit before being told to stop. The teacher said he had never seen anyone do this. Now the trick is small bites of air rapidly not just one big bunch of draw, he asked how I knew this, I said it just seemed to make more sense I could lift the fluid in tiny gulps with less effort then try and fight gravity and air pressure. This brings up the point small bits of energy used but a lot of burst can do more then the large efforts you try to do all at once. So challenge your son to see how far up the tube you can pull the liquid, then blow his mind but don't tell him how you did it. You suck on the straw in tiny gulps rapidly let him try to drink it in one gulp. If you've made it right he can't pull the fulid to the top no one can. Hell your vacumes cant even do it. A vacume pump would and thats how they can draw down to 0 no atmosphere. If you've got a vacume pump make an air tight box Put in a speaker play music in it loud, draw the air out and the sound will stop even though the speakers still moving. Sound dosnt travel in a vacume Doing projects like this are fun and educational they also make you think. You build a better mind your son would benefit from it. And have fun doing it.
My shop vac actually gets more cfm than my makita dust extractor. You make a good point on the real differences being noise, form factor, and features. One thing you don't mention is the cheap vacuums spew dust when you so much as move them.
We sand 1000's of plywood boards every year using Mirka Deros and Festool vacuum combinations for printing on. We have literally used EVERY net based sandpaper we can get our hands on and have a bunch of vacuums besides the Festool from WAP, NILFISK, AEG. We use the Festool for one reason - NOISE. The Mirka we don't use Cubitron Extract 180g but prefer the Mirka 180g as it has larger holes so it vacuums the surface better as the first sanding releases longer Fibers which the 3M doesn't cope so well with. We are also experimenting with turbo brushes as they really remove abrasive residue, dust and loose fibers - remember we print directly on the wood in the same room as we have laser cutters The result is that a good vacuum brushing between grits really helps your sanding. We also have 2.5um sensors monitoring the situation - when the bag is full, we see the numbers skyrocket because the airflow drops so much.
from the looks of your page you dont seem like youd be down for this but if you ever felt the urge to make a video about that set up/work flow I know id watch it!!
I’m an engineer who designed pressurized cabs for earthmoving equipment. A cheap filter after it partially clogs filters out smaller particles as well as a finer filter. So a clogged small hepa filter is not as good as the larger cylindrical filter in shop vac. You should run a test to measure airflow and dynamic pressure AFTER sanding for an hour. Filter life determines how well people maintain the dust extraction. This video was super interesting and useful.
Sound levels are one of the reasons Iwould consider a more expensive vacuum. I wonder if we did all of the vacs a diservice by not using the hose that came with the vac. The hose can make a huge differrence in perfotmance and I would expect that each vac would have hose designed for it's specific performance curve. I would think that hose is an integral part of each vacs overall system performance. Thanks for the video.
As you mentioned, the 3M sander and paper make a big difference, regardless of vac. Ran a Makita with gold paper for years with a vac and would see fine dust everywhere in the shop, even with a separate filter running. Switched to extract sander and paper and haven't seen any since.
Fluid mechanics physicist here: I really would expect an enormous loss from the vacuum, down the hose, right before the sander. If you think of it like an electrical circuit, you have the high "voltage" (vacuum pressure) down the "wire" (hose creates a load and pressure drop) and then to a "load" (the sander). You'd expect a big drop since the load is pretty small. And you saw that - the fractional pressure drop was pretty similar for all 3
Best upgrade for a shop vac is to replace the standard 32mm diameter hose with 50mm diameter hose. Way less pressure drop in the hose, it sucks a lot more. In fact with the 50mm hose and a cyclone separator it still sucks better than with the standard hose and no cyclone...
@@caseyglick5957 so what you’re saying is that if you have three vacuums with different vacuum pressure capabilities, if they’re all hooked up to the same vacuum restriction (load - the sander), they’ll all perform relatively the same, which I think is what was found in this test.
@@pppjunk yeah, that makes sense. Although it's not so much the lack of a pressure drop as a lack of a pressure *loss*, although this is slightly pedantic. The open end of the hose is going to be at relatively the same pressure. But if you oclude the hose with something (eg a dirty floor), more of the pressure drop is going to happen across the thing you want sucked up, rather than being wasted in the hose.
@@goldistocks609 sort of. Ultimately, the pressure at the end of the system is at atmosphere. But if you have a blocked system or a narrow hose or something, you're going to waste more of your suction on the hose or the vacuum bag, rather than putting it to use across the object you want sucked up. But as you say, if the loads (hose, blockage, item) are pretty similar, then yeah you'd expect similar performance.
A dust separator hooked to a shop vac that has the exhaust plumbed through the wall outside is the cheapest and most effective way of protecting your lungs. No filters required!
@@MasterQuack14 I like this idea, but it does come at the expense of exhausting conditioned air (if your shop is heated or cooled). But in my opinion it's a small price to pay for air quality
This has worked really well for me. Even better now since I upgraded to a newer shop vac that uses filter bags. No more cleaning and replacing the frequently clogged and expensive modular filters, and no more caked dust mud on the outside.
As an (ex) sampler for industrial air extraction systems validation, I agree. Cyclone, filter, then exhaust outside. If the air is re-routed inside, inhalable (finer) particles pass the filter and accumulate inside.
Seems like a good place to leave this story. There was once a person who needed to do some drywall work and used an electric sander. Soon that person couldnt see across the room and realized his error. That room took months to get back to a clean (breathable ) state. That room was the master bedroom.
a family friend had some drywall patched and painted (ceiling) and the “professional” left a fine layer of dust everywhere. I argued they were unprofessional and downright stupid to risk their own health and leave the job site in such a mess. The family friend is constantly getting scammed like that though and no amount of patience and explanation can help from themselves so they are hopeless.
Dude, dude ... This is the most applicable video I've found on this subject and something I had been planning to test myself because I take everything online less than face value ... But I think you've done the most real world testing and display of the information that can be done for the DIY'r and maker ... Well done and thank you for all this work!!
We purchased a couple of "Dust Deputy" (s). Hooked them up to a low cost vacuum - which we had installed a main bag filter - and then a typical round HEPA filter at the top of the wet/dry vacuum - covering over the floating 'wet' ball. It does of course only work on dry stuff; and I haven't measured the air quality - but the vast, vast, vast majority of stuff is deposited into the Dust Deputy; a fine powder into the cheap bag vacuum filter; and the HEPA filter seems to remain quite clean. And it was all fairly low cost - budget wise. And you can hook a dust deputy up to virtually any vacuum. I also hooked one up to my expensive wood flooring sander; going back to the vacuum - for almost 100% dust free floor sanding. [They've changed the design slightly - ours are all metal - but the "Oneida Air Dust Deputy" would still work. All power is from your vacuum - and I know the 'cyclone' seems to be lame - but believe me - it totally works.]
I bought something called a "Dustopper Pro" from one of the big box stores and slapped it on a home Depot bucket. I was actually shocked at how much it collected. I thought it would be pretty mediocre because the shape is so much different than the internet's beloved Dust Deputy type cyclones. There's basically no dust in the shop vac itself except for the finest layer. The layer was as if it just sat in an abandoned attic and left open for a couple months and so a thin later of dust accumulated. So combined with the filter I'm quite content with this level of dust collection. Now I just need to build a cabinet for get my tablesaw so it doesn't just dump dust on the floor.
Thank you for taking your time to comment with so much good information. Seriously, your comment answered the questions that led me to this video. The content of this video was definitely adjacent to the answers I needed, and it was a very well done video. That said, it was this comment that had exactly what I was looking for. Freakin' thank you @daves7775 . Everybody likes to say that anything you want to know is there with a few tippity taps, and that's mostly true. But, I've had many experiences searching the web for some information, or instructions, for pretty common use cases, where even after going through a lot of search results, something about my common use case would make it unique enough that even the mighty intarweb didn't have the answer. I was just about to call it a wrap on this particular intel effort and pause the project attached to it until I read your comment. Good shit man
in germany, any dust extractor worth a damn has a rating. There are 3 levels based on the danger level of the material. - L for light danger, so any household dust. - M for construction work, so wood, concrete and so on. - H for high danger, so mould, asbestos or so. Since making filters is kinda pricy, most manufacturers put the good M quality filters into the L level dust extractors aswell, so the filtration is usually still good on them. Class M monitors airflow to check when the filters are clogged and automatically cleans them if they notice a drop. i think this is also where you have to ground the hoses to prevent electric charge buildup. Class H requires better filtration and much less dusty bag changes. If you have any employees as a blue collar worker, you are legally required to get at least a class M extractor, but for hobby woodworkers, a class L machine for around 100 bucks is probably good enough.
Thank you so much for doing this. You may not be a scientist or engineer, but the way you cited your sources, put the data in context, and pro-actively pointed out all the limitations of the test is amazing. You got a sub from me for going way above what most similar youtubers would do for a similar topic.
I am just a hobbyist and I do not regret the Festool CT 26E dust extractor. Having variable suction power is important when you have a good sander. I use to have the DeWALT sander I had to stop every so often because of the fatigue from the vibration. I looked at both the Mirka and Festool sanders and went with the Festool. I did not like the paddle on top of the sander that was the power switch. Both were otherwise very similar in handling and comfort. Coupled with the Festool extractor, only a very small amount of dust was left on the piece that I was sanding. Having variable power comes in great here. You want to lower the power setting when sanding as you don't want the sander being sucked down when sanding as you going to be sanding the dust and pushing it into the wood, making more of a mess and less getting sucked away. I am not a fanboy of any brand. The best tool for the job. I have Makita, DeWALT, Ryobi, Bosch, Milwaukee and Festool. I don't like the price of the Festool products, but they are great tools.
I'm definitely not fan girling out... But I think you're my favorite RUclipsr. That damn marking knife story... Great tests, much more intelligent than I. Thank you for taking the time to be legit. You have the highest quality channel with the least subscribers of any I've seen. Meaning you'll have over a 100k soon.
Very nice video. I normally buy a new vacuum for the house and take the old house vacuum to the workshop. But the mini filters clogs up very fast during sanding. To stop and clean that filters, is the problem, I can literally see the dust in air, even if I clean it inside my dirt bin. Point I want to make, I bought a Hazard L vacuum the other day, with an manual push button to clean filter, the issue I found during use... The air coming out of the machine, is almost 60 degree downwards. Blowing all the dust what was lying on the floor, into the air. The reason I'm saying 60 degrees, it is between 750 - 1000mm away from the vacuum. Luckily I always keep my floor clean, but imagine you don't.... How much dust will be flying around in my little workshop. ... Very interesting data/info you showed.
Really fantastic testing and analysis. I'm a longtime vacuum tech, and your approach to testing these machines is rare. I would love to see each vacuum in a sealed "clean container" like a Sterilite tub and see how much the particle counter rises as you pick up fine debris like sheetrock dust. Awesome job. Thanks for this video!
I’ve been watching more and more of your videos Drew and the information here is fantastic. I recently purchased one of those super quiet shopvacs from Dewalt. I think it’s called stealth sonic and I’m loving that and will probably use that for my sanding dust collection. I don’t think I’m ready for a dust extractor just yet, but I will look into an option for turning the machine on at the same time as the vacuum. Thanks for a great video.
What I surmised from this experiment is, the 3m is ridiculously overpriced for the marginal difference between it and the festool, the festool would be worth it for a professional shop or very successful side hustle based on the motor quality alone, and the Ridgid I use for everything from dust collection to cleaning my truck with will do an excellent job for a hobbyist. Great video and info as always pastor.
eh... sort of. The 3M is priced that way because it has features for a professional auto-body shop that a woodworker doesn't care about. Specifically, it features automatic on/off for both electric and pneumatic tools. This is something even the Festool doesn't offer and is a big deal in professional auto shops where pneumatic tools are in common use. You're 100% right that it's way too much for a hobbyist - because it's not meant for a hobbyist. Honestly if you're a hobbyist and want an upgrade from a shop vac to a dust extractor with HEPA filtration the Fein Dust Extractors are a much better deal. The Fein Turbo I was a huge upgrade for me from a cheap shop vac with HEPA filtration and auto on/off for about $350. A huge savings compared to the equivalent Festool which comes in at $600 - $800.
I have an old retired craftsman shop vac with the same top lid-mounted 2 ½” hose ports. Just had a brainstorm. I’m going to use a hole saw to drill a side port and install a female hose adapter for a hepa dust bag and then plug up the top suction port. If it works, I’ll likely install it at the sanding table.
Great Video! While i haven't set it all up yet i plan to connect my shop vac with hepa bag in line with a small dust deputy cyclone and a system of central vac pipes to run the High pressure, low volume dust collection system in my shop. I intend to use it for general cleanup, a swing arm hose for handheld power tools and hooking to the dust port on my miter saw and a dust hood on the table saw. That is in addition to my 4" dust collection system, the air cleaners and masks!
GREAT job as always Drew. I have a porter cable dust extractor that is tool activated and has a bag and HEPA filter. I have a similar extractor made by Fein and use both frequently, these are my sander extractors. I have 3 shop vacs with bags and filters set up for miter saws and router use , also tool activated. My dust collection system is a Jet 1.75 HP I think. The biggest thing I have done for my air quality is a ceiling mounted air filter. In fact I now have 2. Stubby Nubbs did a video on improving the function and I did that on my first one purchased a Jet. This ended up being a LOT of $. My next unit purchased a Wen for job site use originally is now also in my shop. I did all the same mods only using less expensive alternatives for the big cleanable filter. This would be an interesting test with your expensive ( divorce material ) meter. All I can tell you is when running them I have MUCH less surface dust on things in the shop than without using my “ Pretty darn good “ dust extracting set ups. Plus my heater ( Live in Northern Maine ) has a filter and I no longer ever have the clean the filter alarm go off. Without the air filter it did. I still use a dust mask on occasions but I feel OK not using one most of the time now.
I too worry about dust when sanding... I made a dust collection table to sand on. Using a 4" dust coolection system attached to the table with a dust collection tube I connect to the hand sander. I can see the dust being sucked down into the table so I know the dust is low that actual gets into the air.... great video you made thanks
Amazing as always, Drew! I’m a part time DIYer so I still use a shop vac, but I’ve added a dust separator in front of the vac and it’s made a HUGE difference in longevity and at least visible particulate matter. I still either wear a mask in my garage or do my sanding outside because I don’t trust my setup still.
You said you’re not a scientist, yet you demonstrated scientific method very well! PS: I really love my DeWalt “Stealthsonic” shop vac with heap filter + bag for power and very little noise!
Fantastic. Very informative. Thank you! The only thing I would change would be using a newer Ridgid vac with a bag and HEPA filter (which is what I use). The filter stays relatively cleaner longer. I would be interested to see what effect the bag and filter have due to greater filtering capability but a likely drop in pressure/CFM.
Great video! I bought a Ridgid vacuum and Cen-Tec hose based on your other videos about dust collection. Only thing I would change is how loud the Ridgid vac is.
I would've kept my good hose had my old shop vac died instead of going to my Nan lmao, although all I do is mostly light demolition and vacuuming gravel out of shitbox trucks anyway
I'm very late to this conversation but I can tell you as a guy who JUST got a festool dust extractor (used.) and has always used a Rigid shop vac, that there is a major difference. The auto on and off is great by the way. But the rigid doesn't seem to clear dust from the sander nearly as fast as the festool. For once my shop doesn't have fine dust drifting about. I think several factors contribute. The rigid seems to suffer a lot from the narrow opening that connects to the sander And the exhaust blows any loose dust around exacerbating the situation further. The festool has an adjustable suction that is very beneficial. It can be adjusted so the dust is cleared, but doesn't pull the sander harder into the sanded surface. Over a long period of sanding the rigid gets hot and will eventually stop. The festool doesn't seem to suffer, even sanding lots of drywall. Another massive benefit is the bags. I use a bag in the rigid because it helps the filters last. But, it still gets hot after a long day and may shut off. And pulling the bag out almost guarantees dust getting out. The festool bag can be full of dust so fine it feels like liquid, and it's very easy to isolate the mess still. Still, I'm not throwing out the rigid anytime soon. For reference, the festool was bought used for $150 (and included two festool sanders.) and is from 2011 I believe. The rigid was bought in January of 2024. I can't afford to drop a bunch of money on festool normally so I jumped at the price.
I have an older Rigid model too and luckily my version does let me use dust bags. I use them and find they hold about 70-75% of the full reservoir without a bag. I love my Rigid --is super reliable and provides all of the suction I need. Plus the bag plus internal filter seems to do a great job keeping exhaust particulates out of the air.
I agree with the conclusion... I have the Ridgid shopvac (and believe any homeowner should have one) and the Festool 36. I used the Ridgid for "dust collection" for about 15 years. I like the Festool much more. It's a lot quieter, has some great features, AND, on the Ridgid, I had to clean the filter almost daily. I think it's been at least a month since I cleaned the filter on my Festool (and I checked yesterday and it's still very clean).
My shop vac has a bag and the filter has a “sock” used on pools, would be interesting to see if this setup is better. I never have to replace my HEPA filter since I use a bag and the sock.
I am so glad you hit on the enjoyment factor tools might give you. I enjoy your content it is very fun to watch and I wish you much success , thank you.
1 minute in, and I'm literally saying to myself - "Finally!" Thankyou so much Wittworks, you're a star! 🙂This is something I've been hoping someone with the right resources would do, ever since I went down the dust extraction rabbit hole.
I use the Oneida cyclone hooked up to a Ridgid shop vac. The shop vac does use a bag, which saves filters. Most of the dust is caught by the cyclone. I rarely have to change the bags in the shop vac. The limitation is the tool itself to which the hose is connected. The miter saw, as one would expect, is the worst. The router table and the table saw also produce quite a bit of random uncaptured dust. In order to mitigate the dust in the air, I built a mobile filter cart using a squirrel cage from a residential hvac system and standard hvac filters. That device captures a lot of dust. It is a fairly high cfm device. I also wear a 3M particle mask anytime I'm producing sawdust. For a hobby, garage-based woodworker, I feel fairly well protected.
Thanks for taking the time to do these test it would have been brutal. But my favourite part was I trust it because it has Pro in front of it that was priceless
I usually add soapy/foamy water swished around in any shop vac to absorb and cut way down on the dust exhausted. You must clean this system out after use and never use so much water as to have it sucked up by the motor. You are also not allowed to tip the vac over with any water in it. Thanks for the video witt.
Another great video / comparison. I was quite happy with my Ridgid vac with Hepa filter and bag upgrades using my 3M Extract sander…but I was getting nailed with static electricity here in Colorado at 7600ft. I even tried an “anti-static” hose. No joy. So I went with the Festool MIDI as it has the cloth coated anti static hose and is grounded. This is after contacting 3M and their tecs could not confirm anti static properties other than the rubber coated hose. Using a 3D printed hose adapter on the MIDI to the 3M sander made the system a pleasure to use now.
I use my shop vac, which gets cleaned frequently, especially when sanding. I wear a mask and use a homemade box fan filter with a K&N filter for additional filtration. No fine dust in the morning on any flat surfaces. Works wonderfully for me. Thanks for the video.
i worked for the post office in the early 2000's repairing mail sorting machines. These machinrs get shut down and cleaned every morning and go through some tests to make sure they are ready to sort mail. Sorning mail by machines creates a lot of very fine paper dust. If you recall there was an idiot sending contaminated dust (ricen powder) through the mails that caused a lot of rethinking when it came to dust in the workplace. Beforehand the sorting machines were blown out every morning using compressed air and then the machines were vacuumes out to remove the dust. When I walk=ed into work at 2:30PM and there was so much dust that you could not clearly see things 500ft away (very large work floor). The procedure changed after they found unsafe materials were being sent through the mails to congressmen and other officials. Compressed air was removed along with the air hoses. machines were vacuumed out with new HEPA vacs that cost over a grand each. The result was the air was clean when I came into work but this was because we were not using compressed air to blow down the machines not just because of the HEPA vacs. i suspect a good quality vac would have done a good job at 1/10th the cost but I'm sure the HEPA was better,
If you do another test, you should get the hepa filter for the Ridgid because I think that’s where the main difference is and the filter isn’t very expensive
Dude this was awesome! I love woodworking videos how have you been off of my feed for so long? I’m so happy you did this video. Thanks for all of your work!
Great video and good experiments. I think it's worth noting that given the price differences, you could buy 3 shop vacs and 3D print an adapter to join them and increase your suction power to the point where it matches or exceeds the more expensive units. And a bonus is that if one fails, you still have two backup units available that will do the job. I do fine with a shop vac and a cheap cyclone dust separator on a hole depo bucket, but I'm not a heavy duty wood worker.
love the video! had a Rigid Shop vac starting out as a diy woodworker, looking to upgrade but i guess ill buy another rigid! The video was very informative, thank you!
Thanks a lot for this video. Was looking if it was possible to install MoCa this way but couldn’t find anything online. Mabe my day, ordered everything and installed in like 1hr.
How do you change the amount of suction with a shop vac? That's the feature that separates a dust extractor from a shop vac since it lets you ensure you're not just adhering your sander to the surface of the workpiece.
For you well informed gentlemen I want to do a central vac system, I was going to do a big shop vacuum as my base vacuum. I will do three holes probably about 25 feet of tubing all together .
I use the 3M sander and matching paper mated with a cheap shop-vac. The difference is that I have the vac mounted outside in a box with the exhaust port of the vac blowing out into the yard and the hose running through a hole in the wall. My shop is small (only 13 x 21) so I just have about 30' of hose attached to it coiled up under a bench. I find it works very well and you can barley hear it run! I actually keep my shop cleaner with this setup because I don't have to don ear protection every time I turn on the vac. Also, because a shop-vac does not move a high volume of air I don't notice it pulling much of the heat out of the shop in the winter (I am in Michigan). This was a great video! thank you for confirming my suspensions!
Thanks for going through all of this to share health & safety info for all of us. Your boldness is saving some of our marriages and lives. Probably in the order
I actually picked up a Bauer shop vac a month or two ago, and here at the beginning I'd say it's only a little bit louder than any dust extractors I've used. Not sure if that will last forever as I'm sure the motor has cheaper parts that will shift/loosen break faster, but these results make me feel great about my purchase!
The cost difference is OHSA, Health and Safety, insurance, etc. I know I'm late to the party here. You can put a fleece bag in a shop vac and get HEPA filtration, but it will NEVER be certified. For someone with employees, who has to comply with workplace safety and respiratory protection rules/laws, you have to have a dust extractor (read: Certified, read: expensive!, read: BIG MONEY to get independently certified to specific tech specs). Also, if you're working with dangerous materials, it requires specific certification for that. I.e., more money for certification and technical compliance, such as auto shut off when full or clogged, etc. Doesn't surprise me at all that a shop vac can match actual performance. But it will never meet regulatory compliance.
Where exactly are you getting the info that says a fleece bag can filter as well as a HEPA filter? If such a cheap material could do the job, why would no one have tried to certify it? I have read studies that say that the finest dust is the most harmful to long-term health (it’s been a while so I don’t remember the source to cite it, but I do remember it was pulmonary doctors), and that filter quality on dust collectors had a huge impact on the quantity of fine dust in the air. Bag-type filters on dust collectors were by far the worst performers at reducing fine dust and HEPA was by far the best. The study also recommended using a P100 respirator in addition to HEPA dust collection for anyone exposed to fine dust on a regular basis to avoid long term health consequences, as even the most effective dust collection system can capture all of the dust.
@@sschoon86 Dude, did you watch the video? Second, I have 30 years experience as a certified respiratory protection program manager dealing with chemical and biological warfare agents. What about you? Certification is about repeatability, guaranteed performance, and predictability. I said you CAN get HEPA filtration with a fleece bag, and that's true. With certain bags, in certain vacs, you can match HEPA performance. As the video shows.
@@pilotalan yes I did watch the video, and I failed to see the part where he even tested a fleece bag. And some guy doing a video with questionable equipment in a non-controlled environment is no very convincing to me (he even calls this out in the video when his equipment swings 100k particles just when he moves). He was not testing the effectiveness of filters, but actually the effectiveness of different extractors. So go ahead and extrapolate whatever the hell you want from that, but I saw no evidence that proves a fleece bag is as effective as a HEPA. And you have still provided no evidence, just "trust me, I'm an expert"
The approach I take to woodworking dust is: 1) I preference low dust tools a lot; 2) I have mobile elements to my workshop, and save a lot of dusty work for outside. This is tough in a winter climate where a lot of people want to do shop stuff in the winter and play during the summer. 3) I have a Racal helmet/3M and those things are life changing. However, if you do a lot of sanding in a cluttered shop all the time you are not wearing the helmet, you will be eating some dust. This is why 1) and 2). I also have a Shopvac with HEPA and bag, a dust extractor, and an air cleaner. 4) I recently bought a leaf blower for the yard, turns out it blows dust out of the shop like nothing else I have seen.
The cost of these things is largely justified for professionals by increased safety, including from noise levels, and time savings. Especially with fine dust, a cheap shop vac will rapidly clog filters, even more so if you use a higher grade filter so you're not spewing the fine stuff into the air. Bags and self cleaning filters mean you can get back to work quickly when they clog. For a hobbiest, that's convenience, for a professional it's money.
Always use dust bags on shop vacs unless using it for water. Bags are cheaper than filters and will keep the air flow and filter performance better for longer. Also the vacuum outblow port design changes a lot how the total dust gets. I have a cheap one, works great but the outblow and motor cooling air flow blasts dust up from the floor behind it
My vacuum system is made up of two different shop vac, (and old rigid and a Shopvac), and I added a dust deputy on each one all housed in carts with a baffle system to knock down the noise. They work pretty well. I also have an overhead Jet air cleaner. Been using this system for years now I have been really happy with it. I agree in a professional shop a higher end dust collection system is warranted, but for my shop what I have does great. Thanks for the video and the work.
Thank you for such a well produced vid. The problem with wood dust, hard woods being the most dangerous, is that all the dust below 0.5microns will remain suspended in the air for 24 hours. These are the bad guys and will be disturbed again with airflow and movement. A hanging dust extractor is the only option, which is left on over night, after you've cleaned up with the shop vac. They can filter the air over night, are quiet, and low power, and hang above head height. Your air quality testing was well intended, but I believe a complete waste of time and distracted from the main focus; was a cheap shop vac good enough to do the job of a more expensive one?
I found the Ridgid vacuums to be quite noisy and so so built. I switched to Dewalt "cheap" vacs: better wheels, quieter, better switch, washable filter, and just better design and construction all round (I recommend upgrading the hose though). At work, I do use the Festool Midi which is great.
Homedepo shopvac with a blue fine shop vac filter and a hepa wunderbag. Life changing with a lower end vacuum. Bags are expensive 20-25 bucks each but worth every penny. They don't clog, and hold enough. They do a great job with dust even with a sander hooked to it. The bags are always on backorder but come in a week or 2. Hepa Wunderbags. Make any lower end shop vac vacuum from good to fantastic . I have nothing do with them. They just work really well.
I would definitely be interested in seeing the difference in dust control between the Extract ROS and paper vs. a Makita/DeWalt/Ryobi ROS with like… Gator paper. Maybe even change it up and use the Gator paper with the Extract sander and the Extract paper with the “Big 3” sander. I’m also curious about the effect that a cyclonic-style dust separator has on the shop vac performance. I have a sneaking suspicion that a decent shop vac with a cyclonic separator with the Extract paper and a halfway decent ROS would come very close to something like a full-out Festool setup, for a fraction of the price.
I actually figured out how to get a bag into one of those rigids. I had to modify the male end of the hose that plugs into the vacuum but it wasn't very difficult and I could definitely do it again.
Wonder if by using a Y Piece connector to join two rigid shop vac hoses together as one hose would increase the suction power, which could possibly out perform the premium ones, and still being cheaper🤔
you can add hepa to your shop vac an also a bluetooth button/outlet. or the outlets that lets you add the shop vac with a 3 sec delay. thats what i have. turning the tool on, turns the vac on. with the bucket cyclone to make the hepa bag last longer
I really enjoyed this video, and a few of your other videos, which I discovered today. However, the section on 'Dynamic Pressure Tests', beginning at 10:18, incorrectly explains what is happening. A woodworker would want to measure the BIGGEST drop possible from the static pressure tests. A low 'dynamic pressure' reading means that there is lots of air moving easily through the tool, which will help collect a lot of dust. The higher the 'dynamic pressure' reading, the less air is moving through the tool and the vacuum hose, and therefore, the less dust the extractor is actually capable of sucking up. What you measured in this part of the video is simply the airflow restriction imposed by the tool and vacuum hose, compared to the zero airflow static pressure, measured earlier. A well-designed tool causes as little airflow restriction as possible, and therefore would show lower 'dynamic pressure' readings than a tool that restricts the airflow more.
You have 47k (yea yea 46.9 right this second) subs, there needs to be 1,460,000 subs at least, I enjoy your work, and what you do and you've saved me a ton of time. K, bye have fun!
The U-tube manometer is old school but it is as accurate as the ruler. BUT this rig stops the flow of air through the machine (with the exception of suction leakage). The condition of filter or fill in the bag won't have any impact. Without flow there is no pressure drop through the filter. A better (but much more difficult test) would be to measure suction static at varying flow rates.
I remember watching a video years ago when a supposed NASA filtration engineer said with 100% confidence to stop buying filters for RIGID vacs etc and to just wrap the cage where the filter installs with basic paper towel. This was years ago but I believe he went into the science and micron pass through of paper towel vs air filters etc. I’m curious to what results your setup would produce. Would be a long term subscriber if this had a possibility of happening. ✌️
I think one argument for the more expensive dedicated dust extractors is durability. We use an older Honeywell dust extractor with a smaller media blasting cabinet for dental laboratory work and it's a tool that gets routinely neglected. Last time the dust bag was changed out, the bag was packed so full of dust that it weighed more than the extractor itself. Changed out the bag, cleaned the extractor a bit, and it went back into service and works great. It's seen at least two Dayton shopvacs come and go and they see much less hours of use.
Now wait a minute; Rigid is Home Depot’s brand - I also happen to own one. They most certainly do take bags, and they also sell HEPA Filters and bags. Typically no one bothers, but I feel like you probably overlooked something that could have made a slight difference. Would love to know how the HEPA Kit for the rigid stands up to the 3M.
Did you test them for sound levels? I have a couple of 20 year old Fein vacs that get used daily and the best thing about them is that they are super quiet.
Had my shop vac blow out from sanding. Just couldn't handle the long run times. Upgraded to the festool CT 15 same engine as the midi with just a 4 gallon collection and no fancy static hose .. but for 400 bucks it's an amazing deal for HEPA filtration and does a great job
Using a cyclone separator with a good normal vac is a very good compromise for not a lot of money. I sand and cut a TON of plywood, and my filter stays clean. I use the HEPA filters in my Dewalt vac, and they basically last forever. Literally a 20X+ reduction in having to clean the filter. I have an auto switch with a remote for each vacuum, so it turns on with plug-in tools, and I can remotely turn it on with battery tools. I highly recommend the DeWalt "Steathsonic" vacuums. They are quiet, and really SUCK. :-)
I have not had trouble with sawdust but I would say that drywall dust and concrete dust will most certainly kill the motor bearings in a shop-vacc. in high volume.
I have a festool ct mini. Its a great little dust extractor. I just wish the extractor was bigger, and had the hepa cleaner function, as well as the bluetooth option. But for what it is, its p good with most of my tools.
I'm not sure your rationale when you doubled the # on your static pressure scale, but did you notice that when you did the dynamic testing, the suction was about half that of the static....
Just ran across this but I have a Craftsman shop vac I started using for my sanding of cutting boards and what not. I'll let ya know when she goes cause I have a feeling it isn't going to be long lmao
Love your videos! I am a hobbyist furniture refinisher. Since I have no garage space, I use my basement. I want to be able to sand indoors, in my basement, without spewing dust everywhere, so I’ve toyed with the idea of getting a dust extractor, but the price is just not practical. Thanx for the comparison! It was very helpful. Did your Festool survive the unexpected dousing? I felt your pain. Ughhhhh.
My understanding is that many drywall contractors look for cheap used shop vacs and throw them away when the motor breaks. They are too small to have to deal with OSHA, and pennies matter when doing competitive bidding. I saw a house with several shop vacs in the garage after the drywall work was done on a house. Maybe autoclean would work and save money
I would think for as many cheap shop vacs they buy over about 10 years, they could have bought the expensive 3M and still have the machine and there would be a lot less plastic in landfills.
I don't know what kind of mask you're using there at 6:29 and again near the end. I use P100 mask with replaceable filters and which makes a good seal where it sits on the face. I love it, and I don't smell any sawdust until _after_ I take it off just outside the shop door.
I've got an older school sander that's not really made for vacuums. Has the 1/2 inch dust thing. But if you tape a 1 inch hose to it, you can do very good dust extraction. I"ve used it with mesh sanding and regular paper. I don't have any cubitron. I use it when I have to do drywall mainly and keep the dust down. With a bagged cheap 100 dollar shop vac, my dust load in the air is very minimal. The bags in the cheap shop vac's make all the difference in filtration of whatever it can get ahold of. I'd love one of the pro dog extractors for sure, but I've honestly not been able to personally see an advantage to having a 1000 dollar vacuum vs something that the bags and supplies for are cheaper overall. And the shop vac, honestly, has more uses than dust extractors. When we really look at it, these small extractors are probably best for sanding and things that make ultra fine particles. Which is very limited in the workshop. While a shop vac might not have the suction power, but it has the volume in storage and cfm when we run that larger hose, and it's gonna be more useful with more tools in the shop if you don't have a dedicated extraction system. I'd not wanna use these dust extractors on my table saw, they would be full in seconds. Planer? hahaha. that thing fills up the big shop vac in seconds. Router table? yeah, dust extractor gonna not last there either. I think the issue in the end is these dust extractors are marketed more as a catch all, when they really are a niche solution.
Something that I have noticed with my Makita Extractor vs a Rigid with a bag.. the bag strength. All too often when I am trying to use a rigid for dust extraction the bag gets ripped.. then the filter gets compromised. The filter on my Makita has never gotten clogged. I fact I have never even seen any debris in the filter at all. Also.. the bags on the Makita are strong enough to remove them and use for water removal and then reuse the bags.. the bags are not really more expensive then the rigid bags either.. I think like 50 bucks for 5 of them.. nothing is more annoying than having to go outside to bang out some stupid clogged filter and sucking in all of the dust while doing it.
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It's for removing dust... potentially bad dust, the kind where you toss the 3M in the decon burn bag along with the rest of the stuff it sucked up... Off to the incinerator for all of it...
You want to have fun with your home made anamonotor,
I did thins in Jr high school some 40 plus years ago with my science class, I kinda blew away my teacher
And he was a diving instructor outside of school.
The unit was set up to see who could pull up the liquid the highest on the scale most kids didn't raise the fuild very high, I almost pulled the liquid out of the unit before being told to stop.
The teacher said he had never seen anyone do this.
Now the trick is small bites of air rapidly not just one big bunch of draw, he asked how I knew this, I said it just seemed to make more sense I could lift the fluid in tiny gulps with less effort then try and fight gravity and air pressure.
This brings up the point small bits of energy used but a lot of burst can do more then the large efforts you try to do all at once.
So challenge your son to see how far up the tube you can pull the liquid, then blow his mind but don't tell him how you did it.
You suck on the straw in tiny gulps rapidly let him try to drink it in one gulp. If you've made it right he can't pull the fulid to the top no one can.
Hell your vacumes cant even do it.
A vacume pump would and thats how they can draw down to 0 no atmosphere. If you've got a vacume pump make an air tight box
Put in a speaker play music in it loud, draw the air out and the sound will stop even though the speakers still moving.
Sound dosnt travel in a vacume
Doing projects like this are fun and educational they also make you think. You build a better mind your son would benefit from it. And have fun doing it.
My shop vac actually gets more cfm than my makita dust extractor. You make a good point on the real differences being noise, form factor, and features.
One thing you don't mention is the cheap vacuums spew dust when you so much as move them.
Thanks for taking on the subject...was kinda curious about the difference in the "low" settings
what about the electric tool start Karcher shop Vac as a dust extractor?
Best point is the difference between no vacuum & $30. You don't have to spend a lot, but you do need to do something to save your lungs. Nice video!
how do you use a vaccum asa dust extractor while working when you only have 2 hands?
@@neglectfulsausage7689 pvc and a heat gun, or failing that, ducktape.
We sand 1000's of plywood boards every year using Mirka Deros and Festool vacuum combinations for printing on. We have literally used EVERY net based sandpaper we can get our hands on and have a bunch of vacuums besides the Festool from WAP, NILFISK, AEG.
We use the Festool for one reason - NOISE. The Mirka we don't use Cubitron Extract 180g but prefer the Mirka 180g as it has larger holes so it vacuums the surface better as the first sanding releases longer Fibers which the 3M doesn't cope so well with.
We are also experimenting with turbo brushes as they really remove abrasive residue, dust and loose fibers - remember we print directly on the wood in the same room as we have laser cutters
The result is that a good vacuum brushing between grits really helps your sanding.
We also have 2.5um sensors monitoring the situation - when the bag is full, we see the numbers skyrocket because the airflow drops so much.
Thanks. That's really useful stuff .
from the looks of your page you dont seem like youd be down for this but if you ever felt the urge to make a video about that set up/work flow I know id watch it!!
I’m an engineer who designed pressurized cabs for earthmoving equipment. A cheap filter after it partially clogs filters out smaller particles as well as a finer filter. So a clogged small hepa filter is not as good as the larger cylindrical filter in shop vac. You should run a test to measure airflow and dynamic pressure AFTER sanding for an hour. Filter life determines how well people maintain the dust extraction.
This video was super interesting and useful.
Sound levels are one of the reasons Iwould consider a more expensive vacuum. I wonder if we did all of the vacs a diservice by not using the hose that came with the vac. The hose can make a huge differrence in perfotmance and I would expect that each vac would have hose designed for it's specific performance curve. I would think that hose is an integral part of each vacs overall system performance. Thanks for the video.
Notable point! And a sound metered test would be good too (using OE hoses).
As you mentioned, the 3M sander and paper make a big difference, regardless of vac. Ran a Makita with gold paper for years with a vac and would see fine dust everywhere in the shop, even with a separate filter running. Switched to extract sander and paper and haven't seen any since.
Good to hear! That was my hunch.
Fluid mechanics physicist here: I really would expect an enormous loss from the vacuum, down the hose, right before the sander. If you think of it like an electrical circuit, you have the high "voltage" (vacuum pressure) down the "wire" (hose creates a load and pressure drop) and then to a "load" (the sander). You'd expect a big drop since the load is pretty small. And you saw that - the fractional pressure drop was pretty similar for all 3
Best upgrade for a shop vac is to replace the standard 32mm diameter hose with 50mm diameter hose. Way less pressure drop in the hose, it sucks a lot more. In fact with the 50mm hose and a cyclone separator it still sucks better than with the standard hose and no cyclone...
@@caseyglick5957 so what you’re saying is that if you have three vacuums with different vacuum pressure capabilities, if they’re all hooked up to the same vacuum restriction (load - the sander), they’ll all perform relatively the same, which I think is what was found in this test.
@@pppjunk yeah, that makes sense. Although it's not so much the lack of a pressure drop as a lack of a pressure *loss*, although this is slightly pedantic. The open end of the hose is going to be at relatively the same pressure. But if you oclude the hose with something (eg a dirty floor), more of the pressure drop is going to happen across the thing you want sucked up, rather than being wasted in the hose.
@@goldistocks609 sort of. Ultimately, the pressure at the end of the system is at atmosphere. But if you have a blocked system or a narrow hose or something, you're going to waste more of your suction on the hose or the vacuum bag, rather than putting it to use across the object you want sucked up. But as you say, if the loads (hose, blockage, item) are pretty similar, then yeah you'd expect similar performance.
@ Yes that's the point.
A dust separator hooked to a shop vac that has the exhaust plumbed through the wall outside is the cheapest and most effective way of protecting your lungs. No filters required!
@@MasterQuack14 I like this idea, but it does come at the expense of exhausting conditioned air (if your shop is heated or cooled). But in my opinion it's a small price to pay for air quality
This has worked really well for me. Even better now since I upgraded to a newer shop vac that uses filter bags. No more cleaning and replacing the frequently clogged and expensive modular filters, and no more caked dust mud on the outside.
Yup that's my setup and a bit of water in the bottom. Water Helps the process and gives me a visual reading.
As an (ex) sampler for industrial air extraction systems validation, I agree. Cyclone, filter, then exhaust outside. If the air is re-routed inside, inhalable (finer) particles pass the filter and accumulate inside.
Seems like a good place to leave this story. There was once a person who needed to do some drywall work and used an electric sander. Soon that person couldnt see across the room and realized his error. That room took months to get back to a clean (breathable ) state. That room was the master bedroom.
You're just telling this story for a friend, right? (meaning _on behalf of_ a friend)
It takes about 10 seconds to realize it's a colossal mistake to do that, but it takes another 5 minutes to admit it and stop.
a family friend had some drywall patched and painted (ceiling) and the “professional” left a fine layer of dust everywhere.
I argued they were unprofessional and downright stupid to risk their own health and leave the job site in such a mess. The family friend is constantly getting scammed like that though and no amount of patience and explanation can help from themselves so they are hopeless.
Dude, dude ... This is the most applicable video I've found on this subject and something I had been planning to test myself because I take everything online less than face value ... But I think you've done the most real world testing and display of the information that can be done for the DIY'r and maker ... Well done and thank you for all this work!!
We purchased a couple of "Dust Deputy" (s). Hooked them up to a low cost vacuum - which we had installed a main bag filter - and then a typical round HEPA filter at the top of the wet/dry vacuum - covering over the floating 'wet' ball. It does of course only work on dry stuff; and I haven't measured the air quality - but the vast, vast, vast majority of stuff is deposited into the Dust Deputy; a fine powder into the cheap bag vacuum filter; and the HEPA filter seems to remain quite clean. And it was all fairly low cost - budget wise. And you can hook a dust deputy up to virtually any vacuum. I also hooked one up to my expensive wood flooring sander; going back to the vacuum - for almost 100% dust free floor sanding. [They've changed the design slightly - ours are all metal - but the "Oneida Air Dust Deputy" would still work. All power is from your vacuum - and I know the 'cyclone' seems to be lame - but believe me - it totally works.]
I bought something called a "Dustopper Pro" from one of the big box stores and slapped it on a home Depot bucket. I was actually shocked at how much it collected. I thought it would be pretty mediocre because the shape is so much different than the internet's beloved Dust Deputy type cyclones.
There's basically no dust in the shop vac itself except for the finest layer. The layer was as if it just sat in an abandoned attic and left open for a couple months and so a thin later of dust accumulated.
So combined with the filter I'm quite content with this level of dust collection. Now I just need to build a cabinet for get my tablesaw so it doesn't just dump dust on the floor.
Thank you for taking your time to comment with so much good information. Seriously, your comment answered the questions that led me to this video. The content of this video was definitely adjacent to the answers I needed, and it was a very well done video. That said, it was this comment that had exactly what I was looking for. Freakin' thank you @daves7775 . Everybody likes to say that anything you want to know is there with a few tippity taps, and that's mostly true. But, I've had many experiences searching the web for some information, or instructions, for pretty common use cases, where even after going through a lot of search results, something about my common use case would make it unique enough that even the mighty intarweb didn't have the answer. I was just about to call it a wrap on this particular intel effort and pause the project attached to it until I read your comment. Good shit man
in germany, any dust extractor worth a damn has a rating. There are 3 levels based on the danger level of the material.
- L for light danger, so any household dust.
- M for construction work, so wood, concrete and so on.
- H for high danger, so mould, asbestos or so.
Since making filters is kinda pricy, most manufacturers put the good M quality filters into the L level dust extractors aswell, so the filtration is usually still good on them. Class M monitors airflow to check when the filters are clogged and automatically cleans them if they notice a drop. i think this is also where you have to ground the hoses to prevent electric charge buildup. Class H requires better filtration and much less dusty bag changes.
If you have any employees as a blue collar worker, you are legally required to get at least a class M extractor, but for hobby woodworkers, a class L machine for around 100 bucks is probably good enough.
Thank you so much for doing this. You may not be a scientist or engineer, but the way you cited your sources, put the data in context, and pro-actively pointed out all the limitations of the test is amazing. You got a sub from me for going way above what most similar youtubers would do for a similar topic.
I am just a hobbyist and I do not regret the Festool CT 26E dust extractor. Having variable suction power is important when you have a good sander. I use to have the DeWALT sander I had to stop every so often because of the fatigue from the vibration. I looked at both the Mirka and Festool sanders and went with the Festool. I did not like the paddle on top of the sander that was the power switch. Both were otherwise very similar in handling and comfort. Coupled with the Festool extractor, only a very small amount of dust was left on the piece that I was sanding. Having variable power comes in great here. You want to lower the power setting when sanding as you don't want the sander being sucked down when sanding as you going to be sanding the dust and pushing it into the wood, making more of a mess and less getting sucked away. I am not a fanboy of any brand. The best tool for the job. I have Makita, DeWALT, Ryobi, Bosch, Milwaukee and Festool. I don't like the price of the Festool products, but they are great tools.
I'm definitely not fan girling out... But I think you're my favorite RUclipsr. That damn marking knife story... Great tests, much more intelligent than I. Thank you for taking the time to be legit. You have the highest quality channel with the least subscribers of any I've seen. Meaning you'll have over a 100k soon.
Very nice video. I normally buy a new vacuum for the house and take the old house vacuum to the workshop. But the mini filters clogs up very fast during sanding. To stop and clean that filters, is the problem, I can literally see the dust in air, even if I clean it inside my dirt bin.
Point I want to make, I bought a Hazard L vacuum the other day, with an manual push button to clean filter, the issue I found during use... The air coming out of the machine, is almost 60 degree downwards. Blowing all the dust what was lying on the floor, into the air. The reason I'm saying 60 degrees, it is between 750 - 1000mm away from the vacuum.
Luckily I always keep my floor clean, but imagine you don't.... How much dust will be flying around in my little workshop. ...
Very interesting data/info you showed.
Really fantastic testing and analysis. I'm a longtime vacuum tech, and your approach to testing these machines is rare. I would love to see each vacuum in a sealed "clean container" like a Sterilite tub and see how much the particle counter rises as you pick up fine debris like sheetrock dust.
Awesome job. Thanks for this video!
Thank you very much! Good idea
4:30 is absolutely hysterical
Only in hindsight!
I’ve been watching more and more of your videos Drew and the information here is fantastic. I recently purchased one of those super quiet shopvacs from Dewalt. I think it’s called stealth sonic and I’m loving that and will probably use that for my sanding dust collection. I don’t think I’m ready for a dust extractor just yet, but I will look into an option for turning the machine on at the same time as the vacuum. Thanks for a great video.
Thanks bro! A good filter and that auto switch is 99% as good
I absolutely _love_ my quiet DeWalt. I spent the day I got it looking for stuff to vacuum just because I was so pleased with how quiet it is.
What I surmised from this experiment is, the 3m is ridiculously overpriced for the marginal difference between it and the festool, the festool would be worth it for a professional shop or very successful side hustle based on the motor quality alone, and the Ridgid I use for everything from dust collection to cleaning my truck with will do an excellent job for a hobbyist. Great video and info as always pastor.
Basically! Thank you
eh... sort of. The 3M is priced that way because it has features for a professional auto-body shop that a woodworker doesn't care about. Specifically, it features automatic on/off for both electric and pneumatic tools. This is something even the Festool doesn't offer and is a big deal in professional auto shops where pneumatic tools are in common use.
You're 100% right that it's way too much for a hobbyist - because it's not meant for a hobbyist. Honestly if you're a hobbyist and want an upgrade from a shop vac to a dust extractor with HEPA filtration the Fein Dust Extractors are a much better deal. The Fein Turbo I was a huge upgrade for me from a cheap shop vac with HEPA filtration and auto on/off for about $350. A huge savings compared to the equivalent Festool which comes in at $600 - $800.
I use my Festool on my truck and garage floor too!
I have an old retired craftsman shop vac with the same top lid-mounted 2 ½” hose ports. Just had a brainstorm. I’m going to use a hole saw to drill a side port and install a female hose adapter for a hepa dust bag and then plug up the top suction port. If it works, I’ll likely install it at the sanding table.
Great Video! While i haven't set it all up yet i plan to connect my shop vac with hepa bag in line with a small dust deputy cyclone and a system of central vac pipes to run the High pressure, low volume dust collection system in my shop. I intend to use it for general cleanup, a swing arm hose for handheld power tools and hooking to the dust port on my miter saw and a dust hood on the table saw. That is in addition to my 4" dust collection system, the air cleaners and masks!
Cool idea. Big fan of DD
This is pretty much the setup I have and it works great. Also added the Hepa filter.
I appreciate your discussion of the subject at the end. Most youtubers would have cut the video at the 20 minute mark. Nicely done.
I dont even remember what I said, but glad it helped
GREAT job as always Drew. I have a porter cable dust extractor that is tool activated and has a bag and HEPA filter. I have a similar extractor made by Fein and use both frequently, these are my sander extractors. I have 3 shop vacs with bags and filters set up for miter saws and router use , also tool activated. My dust collection system is a Jet 1.75 HP I think. The biggest thing I have done for my air quality is a ceiling mounted air filter. In fact I now have 2. Stubby Nubbs did a video on improving the function and I did that on my first one purchased a Jet. This ended up being a LOT of $. My next unit purchased a Wen for job site use originally is now also in my shop. I did all the same mods only using less expensive alternatives for the big cleanable filter. This would be an interesting test with your expensive ( divorce material ) meter. All I can tell you is when running them I have MUCH less surface dust on things in the shop than without using my “ Pretty darn good “ dust extracting set ups. Plus my heater ( Live in Northern Maine ) has a filter and I no longer ever have the clean the filter alarm go off. Without the air filter it did. I still use a dust mask on occasions but I feel OK not using one most of the time now.
I too worry about dust when sanding... I made a dust collection table to sand on. Using a 4" dust coolection system attached to the table with a dust collection tube I connect to the hand sander. I can see the dust being sucked down into the table so I know the dust is low that actual gets into the air.... great video you made thanks
Amazing as always, Drew! I’m a part time DIYer so I still use a shop vac, but I’ve added a dust separator in front of the vac and it’s made a HUGE difference in longevity and at least visible particulate matter. I still either wear a mask in my garage or do my sanding outside because I don’t trust my setup still.
You said you’re not a scientist, yet you demonstrated scientific method very well!
PS: I really love my DeWalt “Stealthsonic” shop vac with heap filter + bag for power and very little noise!
Fantastic. Very informative. Thank you! The only thing I would change would be using a newer Ridgid vac with a bag and HEPA filter (which is what I use). The filter stays relatively cleaner longer. I would be interested to see what effect the bag and filter have due to greater filtering capability but a likely drop in pressure/CFM.
Great video! I bought a Ridgid vacuum and Cen-Tec hose based on your other videos about dust collection. Only thing I would change is how loud the Ridgid vac is.
Awesome! It is noticeably louder for sure. I usually use the Festool on low. It sucks as much as the shop vac and is quiet at that speed
Get a dewalt stealthsonic 12 gallon, things like 62 dB
I would've kept my good hose had my old shop vac died instead of going to my Nan lmao, although all I do is mostly light demolition and vacuuming gravel out of shitbox trucks anyway
I'm very late to this conversation but I can tell you as a guy who JUST got a festool dust extractor (used.) and has always used a Rigid shop vac, that there is a major difference. The auto on and off is great by the way.
But the rigid doesn't seem to clear dust from the sander nearly as fast as the festool. For once my shop doesn't have fine dust drifting about. I think several factors contribute. The rigid seems to suffer a lot from the narrow opening that connects to the sander And the exhaust blows any loose dust around exacerbating the situation further. The festool has an adjustable suction that is very beneficial. It can be adjusted so the dust is cleared, but doesn't pull the sander harder into the sanded surface. Over a long period of sanding the rigid gets hot and will eventually stop. The festool doesn't seem to suffer, even sanding lots of drywall. Another massive benefit is the bags. I use a bag in the rigid because it helps the filters last. But, it still gets hot after a long day and may shut off. And pulling the bag out almost guarantees dust getting out. The festool bag can be full of dust so fine it feels like liquid, and it's very easy to isolate the mess still. Still, I'm not throwing out the rigid anytime soon. For reference, the festool was bought used for $150 (and included two festool sanders.) and is from 2011 I believe. The rigid was bought in January of 2024. I can't afford to drop a bunch of money on festool normally so I jumped at the price.
I have an older Rigid model too and luckily my version does let me use dust bags. I use them and find they hold about 70-75% of the full reservoir without a bag. I love my Rigid --is super reliable and provides all of the suction I need. Plus the bag plus internal filter seems to do a great job keeping exhaust particulates out of the air.
I agree with the conclusion... I have the Ridgid shopvac (and believe any homeowner should have one) and the Festool 36. I used the Ridgid for "dust collection" for about 15 years. I like the Festool much more. It's a lot quieter, has some great features, AND, on the Ridgid, I had to clean the filter almost daily. I think it's been at least a month since I cleaned the filter on my Festool (and I checked yesterday and it's still very clean).
Awesome! That little vac is so nice. Luxury. But nice.
My shop vac has a bag and the filter has a “sock” used on pools, would be interesting to see if this setup is better. I never have to replace my HEPA filter since I use a bag and the sock.
I like the sock idea! 🧦 💡
I am so glad you hit on the enjoyment factor tools might give you. I enjoy your content it is very fun to watch and I wish you much success , thank you.
thank you
1 minute in, and I'm literally saying to myself - "Finally!" Thankyou so much Wittworks, you're a star! 🙂This is something I've been hoping someone with the right resources would do, ever since I went down the dust extraction rabbit hole.
I use the Oneida cyclone hooked up to a Ridgid shop vac. The shop vac does use a bag, which saves filters. Most of the dust is caught by the cyclone. I rarely have to change the bags in the shop vac. The limitation is the tool itself to which the hose is connected. The miter saw, as one would expect, is the worst. The router table and the table saw also produce quite a bit of random uncaptured dust. In order to mitigate the dust in the air, I built a mobile filter cart using a squirrel cage from a residential hvac system and standard hvac filters. That device captures a lot of dust. It is a fairly high cfm device. I also wear a 3M particle mask anytime I'm producing sawdust. For a hobby, garage-based woodworker, I feel fairly well protected.
Thanks for taking the time to do these test it would have been brutal. But my favourite part was I trust it because it has Pro in front of it that was priceless
I usually add soapy/foamy water swished around in any shop vac to absorb and cut way down on the dust exhausted. You must clean this system out after use and never use so much water as to have it sucked up by the motor. You are also not allowed to tip the vac over with any water in it. Thanks for the video witt.
Another great video / comparison. I was quite happy with my Ridgid vac with Hepa filter and bag upgrades using my 3M Extract sander…but I was getting nailed with static electricity here in Colorado at 7600ft. I even tried an “anti-static” hose. No joy. So I went with the Festool MIDI as it has the cloth coated anti static hose and is grounded. This is after contacting 3M and their tecs could not confirm anti static properties other than the rubber coated hose. Using a 3D printed hose adapter on the MIDI to the 3M sander made the system a pleasure to use now.
Good to know! I forgot to talk about the anti static hose. Dang it! You’re right…
I use my shop vac, which gets cleaned frequently, especially when sanding. I wear a mask and use a homemade box fan filter with a K&N filter for additional filtration. No fine dust in the morning on any flat surfaces. Works wonderfully for me. Thanks for the video.
i worked for the post office in the early 2000's repairing mail sorting machines. These machinrs get shut down and cleaned every morning and go through some tests to make sure they are ready to sort mail. Sorning mail by machines creates a lot of very fine paper dust.
If you recall there was an idiot sending contaminated dust (ricen powder) through the mails that caused a lot of rethinking when it came to dust in the workplace. Beforehand the sorting machines were blown out every morning using compressed air and then the machines were vacuumes out to remove the dust. When I walk=ed into work at 2:30PM and there was so much dust that you could not clearly see things 500ft away (very large work floor).
The procedure changed after they found unsafe materials were being sent through the mails to congressmen and other officials. Compressed air was removed along with the air hoses. machines were vacuumed out with new HEPA vacs that cost over a grand each. The result was the air was clean when I came into work but this was because we were not using compressed air to blow down the machines not just because of the HEPA vacs. i suspect a good quality vac would have done a good job at 1/10th the cost but I'm sure the HEPA was better,
Not at 1/10th the cost. You can get hepa filters and bags for regular shopvacs.
The DBCS in the plant I was in just had lines hooked to a central giant vacuum in the back room
If you do another test, you should get the hepa filter for the Ridgid because I think that’s where the main difference is and the filter isn’t very expensive
Dude this was awesome! I love woodworking videos how have you been off of my feed for so long? I’m so happy you did this video. Thanks for all of your work!
Great video and good experiments. I think it's worth noting that given the price differences, you could buy 3 shop vacs and 3D print an adapter to join them and increase your suction power to the point where it matches or exceeds the more expensive units. And a bonus is that if one fails, you still have two backup units available that will do the job.
I do fine with a shop vac and a cheap cyclone dust separator on a hole depo bucket, but I'm not a heavy duty wood worker.
Standard shop vac with dust deputy and hepa filter and filter bag. Works awesome and bag stays empty essentially indefinitely.
I've watched a couple of your vids now that have gone by and your channel REALLY deserves a like and a subscribe....
How do you only have 50k subs? Your content is fantastic. Humor is on point and editing well honed
Nicely done.
Thankyou.
love the video! had a Rigid Shop vac starting out as a diy woodworker, looking to upgrade but i guess ill buy another rigid! The video was very informative, thank you!
The best thing I got for my Ridgid vacuum was a cloth pre bag that goes around the filters.
Thanks a lot for this video. Was looking if it was possible to install MoCa this way but couldn’t find anything online. Mabe my day, ordered everything and installed in like 1hr.
now I am interested in how the shop vac performs with a dust deputy vs with out :)
How do you change the amount of suction with a shop vac? That's the feature that separates a dust extractor from a shop vac since it lets you ensure you're not just adhering your sander to the surface of the workpiece.
Thank you for this video. I like your style and I appreciate your candor. Keep up the good work.
For you well informed gentlemen I want to do a central vac system, I was going to do a big shop vacuum as my base vacuum. I will do three holes probably about 25 feet of tubing all together .
I use the 3M sander and matching paper mated with a cheap shop-vac. The difference is that I have the vac mounted outside in a box with the exhaust port of the vac blowing out into the yard and the hose running through a hole in the wall. My shop is small (only 13 x 21) so I just have about 30' of hose attached to it coiled up under a bench. I find it works very well and you can barley hear it run! I actually keep my shop cleaner with this setup because I don't have to don ear protection every time I turn on the vac. Also, because a shop-vac does not move a high volume of air I don't notice it pulling much of the heat out of the shop in the winter (I am in Michigan). This was a great video! thank you for confirming my suspensions!
Thanks for going through all of this to share health & safety info for all of us. Your boldness is saving some of our marriages and lives. Probably in the order
Thanks for the update.
You have some of the best videos on utube 👍
You’re too kind. Thank you.
I actually picked up a Bauer shop vac a month or two ago, and here at the beginning I'd say it's only a little bit louder than any dust extractors I've used. Not sure if that will last forever as I'm sure the motor has cheaper parts that will shift/loosen break faster, but these results make me feel great about my purchase!
The cost difference is OHSA, Health and Safety, insurance, etc. I know I'm late to the party here. You can put a fleece bag in a shop vac and get HEPA filtration, but it will NEVER be certified. For someone with employees, who has to comply with workplace safety and respiratory protection rules/laws, you have to have a dust extractor (read: Certified, read: expensive!, read: BIG MONEY to get independently certified to specific tech specs).
Also, if you're working with dangerous materials, it requires specific certification for that. I.e., more money for certification and technical compliance, such as auto shut off when full or clogged, etc.
Doesn't surprise me at all that a shop vac can match actual performance. But it will never meet regulatory compliance.
True but it's still nice that you have a cheaper alternative for independent people and people who just do it as a hobby.
Where exactly are you getting the info that says a fleece bag can filter as well as a HEPA filter? If such a cheap material could do the job, why would no one have tried to certify it? I have read studies that say that the finest dust is the most harmful to long-term health (it’s been a while so I don’t remember the source to cite it, but I do remember it was pulmonary doctors), and that filter quality on dust collectors had a huge impact on the quantity of fine dust in the air. Bag-type filters on dust collectors were by far the worst performers at reducing fine dust and HEPA was by far the best. The study also recommended using a P100 respirator in addition to HEPA dust collection for anyone exposed to fine dust on a regular basis to avoid long term health consequences, as even the most effective dust collection system can capture all of the dust.
@@sschoon86 Dude, did you watch the video? Second, I have 30 years experience as a certified respiratory protection program manager dealing with chemical and biological warfare agents. What about you?
Certification is about repeatability, guaranteed performance, and predictability. I said you CAN get HEPA filtration with a fleece bag, and that's true. With certain bags, in certain vacs, you can match HEPA performance. As the video shows.
@@pilotalan yes I did watch the video, and I failed to see the part where he even tested a fleece bag. And some guy doing a video with questionable equipment in a non-controlled environment is no very convincing to me (he even calls this out in the video when his equipment swings 100k particles just when he moves). He was not testing the effectiveness of filters, but actually the effectiveness of different extractors. So go ahead and extrapolate whatever the hell you want from that, but I saw no evidence that proves a fleece bag is as effective as a HEPA. And you have still provided no evidence, just "trust me, I'm an expert"
The approach I take to woodworking dust is:
1) I preference low dust tools a lot;
2) I have mobile elements to my workshop, and save a lot of dusty work for outside. This is tough in a winter climate where a lot of people want to do shop stuff in the winter and play during the summer.
3) I have a Racal helmet/3M and those things are life changing. However, if you do a lot of sanding in a cluttered shop all the time you are not wearing the helmet, you will be eating some dust. This is why 1) and 2). I also have a Shopvac with HEPA and bag, a dust extractor, and an air cleaner.
4) I recently bought a leaf blower for the yard, turns out it blows dust out of the shop like nothing else I have seen.
The cost of these things is largely justified for professionals by increased safety, including from noise levels, and time savings. Especially with fine dust, a cheap shop vac will rapidly clog filters, even more so if you use a higher grade filter so you're not spewing the fine stuff into the air.
Bags and self cleaning filters mean you can get back to work quickly when they clog. For a hobbiest, that's convenience, for a professional it's money.
Always use dust bags on shop vacs unless using it for water.
Bags are cheaper than filters and will keep the air flow and filter performance better for longer.
Also the vacuum outblow port design changes a lot how the total dust gets.
I have a cheap one, works great but the outblow and motor cooling air flow blasts dust up from the floor behind it
My vacuum system is made up of two different shop vac, (and old rigid and a Shopvac), and I added a dust deputy on each one all housed in carts with a baffle system to knock down the noise. They work pretty well. I also have an overhead Jet air cleaner. Been using this system for years now I have been really happy with it. I agree in a professional shop a higher end dust collection system is warranted, but for my shop what I have does great. Thanks for the video and the work.
Great video! I'm definitely going out to buy one of these dust suckers immediately... 😁
Thank you for such a well produced vid. The problem with wood dust, hard woods being the most dangerous, is that all the dust below 0.5microns will remain suspended in the air for 24 hours. These are the bad guys and will be disturbed again with airflow and movement.
A hanging dust extractor is the only option, which is left on over night, after you've cleaned up with the shop vac. They can filter the air over night, are quiet, and low power, and hang above head height. Your air quality testing was well intended, but I believe a complete waste of time and distracted from the main focus; was a cheap shop vac good enough to do the job of a more expensive one?
I found the Ridgid vacuums to be quite noisy and so so built. I switched to Dewalt "cheap" vacs: better wheels, quieter, better switch, washable filter, and just better design and construction all round (I recommend upgrading the hose though). At work, I do use the Festool Midi which is great.
Homedepo shopvac with a blue fine shop vac filter and a hepa wunderbag. Life changing with a lower end vacuum. Bags are expensive 20-25 bucks each but worth every penny. They don't clog, and hold enough. They do a great job with dust even with a sander hooked to it. The bags are always on backorder but come in a week or 2. Hepa Wunderbags. Make any lower end shop vac vacuum from good to fantastic . I have nothing do with them. They just work really well.
I would definitely be interested in seeing the difference in dust control between the Extract ROS and paper vs. a Makita/DeWalt/Ryobi ROS with like… Gator paper. Maybe even change it up and use the Gator paper with the Extract sander and the Extract paper with the “Big 3” sander.
I’m also curious about the effect that a cyclonic-style dust separator has on the shop vac performance. I have a sneaking suspicion that a decent shop vac with a cyclonic separator with the Extract paper and a halfway decent ROS would come very close to something like a full-out Festool setup, for a fraction of the price.
I actually figured out how to get a bag into one of those rigids. I had to modify the male end of the hose that plugs into the vacuum but it wasn't very difficult and I could definitely do it again.
Wonder if by using a Y Piece connector to join two rigid shop vac hoses together as one hose would increase the suction power, which could possibly out perform the premium ones, and still being cheaper🤔
you can add hepa to your shop vac an also a bluetooth button/outlet. or the outlets that lets you add the shop vac with a 3 sec delay. thats what i have. turning the tool on, turns the vac on. with the bucket cyclone to make the hepa bag last longer
I put two hoses together and put the vacuum outside
when I vacuum. It's quieter, less bulky in the shop
and gets all the particles out of the shop.
I really enjoyed this video, and a few of your other videos, which I discovered today. However, the section on 'Dynamic Pressure Tests', beginning at 10:18, incorrectly explains what is happening. A woodworker would want to measure the BIGGEST drop possible from the static pressure tests. A low 'dynamic pressure' reading means that there is lots of air moving easily through the tool, which will help collect a lot of dust. The higher the 'dynamic pressure' reading, the less air is moving through the tool and the vacuum hose, and therefore, the less dust the extractor is actually capable of sucking up. What you measured in this part of the video is simply the airflow restriction imposed by the tool and vacuum hose, compared to the zero airflow static pressure, measured earlier. A well-designed tool causes as little airflow restriction as possible, and therefore would show lower 'dynamic pressure' readings than a tool that restricts the airflow more.
You have 47k (yea yea 46.9 right this second) subs, there needs to be 1,460,000 subs at least, I enjoy your work, and what you do and you've saved me a ton of time. K, bye have fun!
The U-tube manometer is old school but it is as accurate as the ruler. BUT this rig stops the flow of air through the machine (with the exception of suction leakage). The condition of filter or fill in the bag won't have any impact. Without flow there is no pressure drop through the filter. A better (but much more difficult test) would be to measure suction static at varying flow rates.
I remember watching a video years ago when a supposed NASA filtration engineer said with 100% confidence to stop buying filters for RIGID vacs etc and to just wrap the cage where the filter installs with basic paper towel. This was years ago but I believe he went into the science and micron pass through of paper towel vs air filters etc.
I’m curious to what results your setup would produce. Would be a long term subscriber if this had a possibility of happening. ✌️
I think one argument for the more expensive dedicated dust extractors is durability. We use an older Honeywell dust extractor with a smaller media blasting cabinet for dental laboratory work and it's a tool that gets routinely neglected. Last time the dust bag was changed out, the bag was packed so full of dust that it weighed more than the extractor itself. Changed out the bag, cleaned the extractor a bit, and it went back into service and works great. It's seen at least two Dayton shopvacs come and go and they see much less hours of use.
Great video & information. This gives me the idea of hooking my shop vac to a longer hose with a trash bin as the container outside.
Now wait a minute; Rigid is Home Depot’s brand - I also happen to own one. They most certainly do take bags, and they also sell HEPA Filters and bags. Typically no one bothers, but I feel like you probably overlooked something that could have made a slight difference.
Would love to know how the HEPA Kit for the rigid stands up to the 3M.
Did you test them for sound levels? I have a couple of 20 year old Fein vacs that get used daily and the best thing about them is that they are super quiet.
Had my shop vac blow out from sanding. Just couldn't handle the long run times. Upgraded to the festool CT 15 same engine as the midi with just a 4 gallon collection and no fancy static hose .. but for 400 bucks it's an amazing deal for HEPA filtration and does a great job
Thank you for this very informative video. I wonder if dust extractors use more electrical power than a shop vac?
Thanks. A pleasure (and a rarity) to see a vid with data and common sense. It's appreciated.
interesting, for portable use I use a cheap shopvac but i do use bags in it too makes a big difference.
Using a cyclone separator with a good normal vac is a very good compromise for not a lot of money. I sand and cut a TON of plywood, and my filter stays clean. I use the HEPA filters in my Dewalt vac, and they basically last forever. Literally a 20X+ reduction in having to clean the filter. I have an auto switch with a remote for each vacuum, so it turns on with plug-in tools, and I can remotely turn it on with battery tools. I highly recommend the DeWalt "Steathsonic" vacuums. They are quiet, and really SUCK. :-)
I have not had trouble with sawdust but I would say that drywall dust and concrete dust will most certainly kill the motor bearings in a shop-vacc. in high volume.
I have a festool ct mini. Its a great little dust extractor. I just wish the extractor was bigger, and had the hepa cleaner function, as well as the bluetooth option. But for what it is, its p good with most of my tools.
I'm not sure your rationale when you doubled the # on your static pressure scale, but did you notice that when you did the dynamic testing, the suction was about half that of the static....
Just ran across this but I have a Craftsman shop vac I started using for my sanding of cutting boards and what not. I'll let ya know when she goes cause I have a feeling it isn't going to be long lmao
Love your videos! I am a hobbyist furniture refinisher. Since I have no garage space, I use my basement. I want to be able to sand indoors, in my basement, without spewing dust everywhere, so I’ve toyed with the idea of getting a dust extractor, but the price is just not practical. Thanx for the comparison! It was very helpful. Did your Festool survive the unexpected dousing? I felt your pain. Ughhhhh.
My understanding is that many drywall contractors look for cheap used shop vacs and throw them away when the motor breaks. They are too small to have to deal with OSHA, and pennies matter when doing competitive bidding. I saw a house with several shop vacs in the garage after the drywall work was done on a house. Maybe autoclean would work and save money
I would think for as many cheap shop vacs they buy over about 10 years, they could have bought the expensive 3M and still have the machine and there would be a lot less plastic in landfills.
Engineer here…nice work!!!
WHAT?! Thank you. From the Artist.
I don't know what kind of mask you're using there at 6:29 and again near the end. I use P100 mask with replaceable filters and which makes a good seal where it sits on the face. I love it, and I don't smell any sawdust until _after_ I take it off just outside the shop door.
thank you for your (and your advisers) information and guidance.
cheers
For a non-engineer, I think you did a great job on this project. Trust me... I'm an engineer.
Thanks for not killing me! Had some good friends helping! That’s about as good as this artist can do
I'm Batman, trust me. 😅
The king here is an engineer, free some space
Trust me bro, I am a Systems Engineer & Cloud DevOps Engineer. 😂
@@joe_ferreira probably
Thanks for a very informative, helpful, and entertaining video. Well done.
I've got an older school sander that's not really made for vacuums. Has the 1/2 inch dust thing. But if you tape a 1 inch hose to it, you can do very good dust extraction. I"ve used it with mesh sanding and regular paper. I don't have any cubitron.
I use it when I have to do drywall mainly and keep the dust down. With a bagged cheap 100 dollar shop vac, my dust load in the air is very minimal.
The bags in the cheap shop vac's make all the difference in filtration of whatever it can get ahold of. I'd love one of the pro dog extractors for sure, but I've honestly not been able to personally see an advantage to having a 1000 dollar vacuum vs something that the bags and supplies for are cheaper overall. And the shop vac, honestly, has more uses than dust extractors.
When we really look at it, these small extractors are probably best for sanding and things that make ultra fine particles. Which is very limited in the workshop. While a shop vac might not have the suction power, but it has the volume in storage and cfm when we run that larger hose, and it's gonna be more useful with more tools in the shop if you don't have a dedicated extraction system.
I'd not wanna use these dust extractors on my table saw, they would be full in seconds.
Planer? hahaha. that thing fills up the big shop vac in seconds. Router table? yeah, dust extractor gonna not last there either.
I think the issue in the end is these dust extractors are marketed more as a catch all, when they really are a niche solution.
Something that I have noticed with my Makita Extractor vs a Rigid with a bag.. the bag strength. All too often when I am trying to use a rigid for dust extraction the bag gets ripped.. then the filter gets compromised. The filter on my Makita has never gotten clogged. I fact I have never even seen any debris in the filter at all. Also.. the bags on the Makita are strong enough to remove them and use for water removal and then reuse the bags.. the bags are not really more expensive then the rigid bags either.. I think like 50 bucks for 5 of them.. nothing is more annoying than having to go outside to bang out some stupid clogged filter and sucking in all of the dust while doing it.