ELITISM TOWARD COMICS, YA, & GENRE FICTION
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2024
- After Martin Scorsese makes comments toward the Marvel movies, I thought it would be interesting to discuss how similar sorts of comments are made toward comics, YA books, genre fiction, and other forms of art.
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I always have tremendously lengthy discussions about elitism with my dad. He is a voracious reader of classical literature and listener of classical music and most, though not all, of what I read seems childlike to him. Of course, he doesn't actually think all contemporary novels inferior to his beloved classics, he just winds me up in a loving manner, but it's definitely interesting to discuss how novels themselves were once deemed a lesser form of literature, hardly worthy of any man or woman of stature. Essentially, someone will always think that a certain form of artwork is superior to another and that is still their own opinion, snobbish or not. I couldn't give a flying fish, personally. I'll just enjoy the fact that the time and societies that we were blessed enough to be born in offer almost unlimited access to all of the art and knowledge of ages past and ages hence.
I read and studied so many "classics" in college and honestly, they put me to sleep. I get what they're trying to say and have respect for what they've done for modern literature (thanks, Jane Austen for Free Indirect Discourse), but I'm perfectly happy reading my fun science fiction and fantasy books that spark my imagination.
@@whosaidthat84 I adore classics, and analysing them - even more. But there's just nothing like a good fantasy novel to get my imagination going and inspire me.
@@LanaFeyah there's plenty of room for both!
I have a problem with the way he says Marvel films aren't "cinema", not with his opinion. Comments similar to that (where you belittle something else to explain why you don't like it) say more about the person who says it than what they're talking about.
PS: I always get a little sad when your videos end because I just love them 🙃📚
Haha, well I’ll have another up soon! 😆 Haha, and yes, I completely agree that the comparison he makes for marvel to theme parks doesn’t bother me one bit, nor do I disagree, but deciding it’s not what cinema is seems a bit much to me 🤷🏻♀️
I really cannot understand why people cannot dislike something and yet respect those who like it.
Bill Burr also has a bit about people criticizing him for liking anime(One Punch Man), which revolves around this topic too. Never understood snobs, liking something and disliking another doesn't make you superior.
Hard agree.
You are free to feel superior, and there is even a chance that that makes you more sophisticated...
But if people were half as sophisticated and superior as they claimed, they would understand that tastes and preferences differ and art is personal.
@@hendrikcromboom3750 No, there's an objective component to aesthetics, which is why movies and books still follow many of the forms laid out by Aristotle 2,500 years ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe his statement was on whether or not he would ever consider directing one of these films and this was his response?
The context makes it sound less elitist to me and more him expressing his own artist integrity. Which, having gone through film school myself, though I don't necessarily agree, I can see the points he's making and I'm also very much aware of the mindset.
Hmm, I guess my opinion is that there are still courteous ways to say one wouldn’t be interested in directing something.
@@ebnovels Elliot Brooks True! Though not entirely, I do think there is some truth to the idea that this "controversial" opinion was said at a rather convenient time to spread awareness of his own upcoming project.
But, after seeing quite a few of your videos I would also be inclined to believe that you are/were slightly triggered by borderline elitist bias. Hahaha.
Hence the 11+ minute video basically ranting that you didn't like how he said he wouldn't do something. 😋
Didn't he want to direct Joker, though? But Warner Bros picked Todd Phillips instead? I don't have the article on hand, but I have read that he was supposed to produce and direct Joker, but then he stepped back as a producer when the director of The Hangover was picked, and he abandoned the project. I know Joker is not related to the MCU, but it still belongs to the genre cinema he seems to look down upon.
@@Caleido07 Well, I'm not sure about that. As Todd Phillip's wrote the script as well as directed/produced it.
So again, a project without a script is an idea. And I can easily see a studio trying to get him to direct a comic villains origin story as something that he personally would not find appealing. For...the exact reason he stated. He didn't want to make a theme park. He'd rather make something that is closer to what he views as cinema. Not movies.
In film school we are taught that they are different. So it is your personal opinion that they are not.
@@observemedia423 I wasn't even sure that it was true, so I can't actually have an opinion. I see what you are saying. We have had, in the past, movies about superheroes that are - if I am not mistaken - considered "cinema" (Nolan's trilogy, for example). Maybe he would've wanted to direct something similar to that? And set an example for Marvel? I guess we'll never know.
I am gonna be honest here,
I just love how you say, "Hi, guys" in the beginning of every video.
Your consistently lovely voice is nice to hear.
Check out her Witcher gaming videos if you haven't,her voice is even more soothing in that. It's almost like ASMR............but not shit
Hahahaha, thanks friend 🤣
Thank you, that is a very interesting compliment 😆
Yes he has a new movie coming out which is why he was being interviewed. Blame the interviewer who asked the loaded question. Obviously Martin Scorsese doesn’t give a shit about Marvel movies and he probably wouldn’t have said anything if no one had asked.
Asking loaded questions is definitely a thing, but this was not an impossible question to answer. Saying, “Marvel movies aren’t for me,” and, “they’re not cinema; we shouldn’t be invaded by them,” are very different.
"Cinema" as film buffs use the word is to movies what "literature" is to books.
They are elitist distinctions, but they've existed for as long as their mediums have had critics.
Ethereal debate about “low” and “high” art. I think it’s bad asked question: Is X an art? We should ask instead: “What did you like about X?”
Sophisticated art is cool and all but you can get great value from something so mundane and simple!
What is real cinema is gatekeeping. What good cinema is isn’t about definition. Marvel movies simply have different goals. One of them is selling merchandise. People wouldn’t care if they wouldn’t like it.
Don’t see anything wrong with it.
In my opinion, there's a lot that Marvel could do to improve their movies as to me they are a bit formulaic and repetitive (with a few exceptions) and generally have the same vibe and tone. Everything is made in the light of the MCU and writers and directiors don't really get a lot of creative freedom. I still enjoy them a lot and we as comic book fans need to learn how to deal with criticism a bit better.
As for Scorsese, he's a legend but he should have worded his criticisms a bit better. Great vid again Elliott.
Hamza Orakzai I would agree and disagree on this. On one end, comic book fandoms are toxic. On the other end, Scorsese could accept that the medium isn’t his to act as a gatekeeper for.
Scorsese just lost most of his credibility to me... Who is he to define what the populace craves. It seems that he is disgruntled by becoming irrelevant and refuses to adapt to the change of the market. You could just as well say that "narative cinema" is an inferior art form compared to written art since it spoon feds you the context. But what kind of elitist prick compares art?
I just feel like scorsere has a bruised ego and it's 20 years too late to retire...
I’m laughing over the irony that the ad I got before your video was for Scorsese’s Master Class!
Someone else said they got that ad too 😆
Hot take: literally his entire statement sounds to me like he is trying to present a strong opinion. I think he should be entitled to his opinion, even if I do not agree with it (and I don't, obviously). Personally, I'd say that anyone who doesn't have at least one strong and controversial opinion about art at some point in their life simply isn't an artist.
That's a very open minded perspective and I completely agree. Even if you're not an artist, you should be able to have an opinion about it because that's one of main reason for it's existence and belittling others just for their opinions regarding that particular art just ends all room to have a reasonable and intelligent discussion.
I agree about strong opinions but you have to be more respectful and tactful in your approach. You cant insult people's tastes in film and art while boasting your own, which is exactly what he did here.
@@hamzaorakzai3490 sure, why not? My cats breath smells like cat food
@@whosaidthat84 you know what's weird, we never actually get to see the cat, it's only referenced.......I wonder why that is. Another hidden simpson prediction maybe
@@whosaidthat84 You absolutely CAN insult people's tastes in film and art. You shouldn't, though, because it shuts down dialogue. For further examples of what insulting someone's tastes looks like, read down the comments below.
What I'm saying is that Martin Scorsese's opinion on what constitutes art is valid, even though I don't agree with it. I guarantee there's plenty of bashing, not a "respectful and tactful" disagreement with his opinion. Did he start it? You could say he did, in this instance. He didn't actually though, because this argument is older than the internet by a great deal. In fact I'd venture a guess this argument is as old as the very idea of Art itself. So you know, at least a hundred or so years.
However, it shouldn't matter whether or not he started the argument, how respectful he was, or any of that. If how someone speaks to your opinion affects how you present your opinion...you're not really presenting your opinion in the first place, you're just arguing that theirs is wrong. Then we wind up with a situation where everyone's opinion is wrong, because apparently no one actually takes the time to argue why their opinion is SUBJECTIVELY right. So there's a place to start. Show that your opinion is your opinion, and not just a reaction to someone else's opinion.
"I admire what they do".... Calling them "not cinema" sure doesn't give that impression.
Why not? I admire the amount of work that goes into marketing imagery, that doesn't mean I'd call it art.
@@jakerockznoodles Because denying it's status as art is disrespectful. If you called a piece of art marketing imagery I would say that's not a sign of admiration. If you called a greyhound a superbly fast rat I don't think anyone would think you're admiring it.
@@cathsaigh2197 Why is it disrespectful? You can admire something without thinking it's art. In fact, that in itself is its own kind of arrogance and snobbery, that something should be referred to as art, else you're "disrespecting" it.
@@jakerockznoodles Only if it is art and you're trying to claim it is not.
@@cathsaigh2197 And how are you more placed to judge what qualifies as art than anyone else?
Right on. I agree with everything except I have cried in Marvel movies and though they might not always have deep meaning, a number of them have explorations of important things and discussed really well.
Yes, I agree! I’m curious now which ones made you cry, though you of course don’t have to answer that 😅
@@ebnovels Endgame I cried multiple times, a lot of that was just how the stories came to a conclusion or the moments I waited for. But I am fairly attached, I also cried in Infinitity Wars. And I know I've cried in other ones but as I haven't rewatched most of them it has been a long time. I cried in Guardians 2. But I am also not the stoic person, I don't cry often in real life but I make up by crying while reading/watching, not easily but if I am connected there is a fair chance.
Here’s the thing that people don’t understand about ‘elitists’ and their opinions about (what you yourself referred to as) art forms: they demand that these art forms actually exist as art forms and not simply commodities or products to be consumed by the masses.
It’s about the integrity of the art form. Books of popular fiction (think James Patterson, Nora Roberts), most popular music, and, for example, action movies (think whatever the latest Dwayne Johnson movie is) have zero artistic value. They are products put into the marketplace to simply make money. To “elitists,” there is no integrity in this. These are not art forms, they exist only as products to be consumed by the masses. Little to no emotional depth to be communicated.
Even though I have often been called an elitist or ‘snob’ I have to disagree with Martin Scorsese on the topic of the Marvel films, because in today’s marketplace, there is a degree of crossover between popular movies and films of cinematic value. While the movies of the MCU are indeed products to be consumed, and their primary purpose is to make money, they do possess real emotional value and ask serious questions about the human condition, politics, etc. Kevin Feige has been very careful and thoughtful in his production of most of the movies of the MCU, and it shows.
I don’t read much YA (although there are some books and authors that are quite good, for example Leigh Bardugo), but there are plenty of examples of this ‘crossover’ in literature as well. The most prominent example, I think, is Stephen King. His books are widely consumed and are put into the marketplace to make money, but in many cases, they obviously have true emotional depth and present topics of serious concern.
I think it’s also worth noting that many series start off as products of integrity, and once they achieve a certain degree of popularity, devolve into a common commodity. The Hunger Games started off with a somewhat original concept but quickly broke down into whatever the author could put to keep her franchise alive.
George R.R. Martin is on the other end of the spectrum as regards his Song of Ice and Fire series. He’s at the height of his popularity and could give in and just release The Winds of Winter to keep the cash coming in, but he demands perfection of his art and the survival of his literature as a true art form.
It’s not all about a good time, enjoyment, or entertainment, as theme parks are.
I don't think there are many authors, genre or literary, who write books just to make money. James Patterson, Nora Roberts and Stephen King literally have hundreds of millions of dollars, do you really think they keep writing books just to make more money?
One thing I think that might cause people to dismiss both comic storylines and YA is that they do often have very formulaic plot lines. If that's a plot line that you love and want to read over and over again, you probably love those genres and there is nothing wrong with that! How many YA stories are there about a strong, warrior women saving her country from certain doom? The whole paranormal romance genre in YA that was super popular a while back was very formulaic. (We all know she's going to end up with the guy or one of the guys if it's a love triangle.) Superhero stories are good guys vs bad guys with loads of action. And there are so many people that love them! The people that prefer more variety shouldn't feel superior just because they like variety. It's just taste. Plus, there are a lot of very similar feeling stories shelved in the adult fiction shelves too!
I definitely agree that there are trends and tropes involved with certain genres and age categories. I appreciate you acknowledging that those sorts of things apply to basically everything :)
We all inexplicably like and dislike things from birth onward. Ofttimes we don't even understand why ourselves. It just is.
Scorcese sounds curmudgeonly here which is fine. The high level of political correctness these days is astounding to me. Everyone wrap yourselves up in cotton lest some words damage your fragile minds and challenge perceptions. Marvel films are Disneyland dipped in cotton candy. Many a depressed days call for such escapism if it can be found. That's just mental health preservation mode.
Martin Scorsese has a new film coming out and he knows there's no such thing as bad publicity. Well played.
I dont understand what they believe the difference is? If the art can be related to and moved and a message is present then what's the issue.
And even if it isnt all forms of art can just be "enjoyed" whether its drawn, painted, music, and even film and writing.
Maybe I'm just dumb too Elliot lol
It's funny that he said this when Joker was being released as Joker pulls heavily from two of his films, Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy as well as several Joker graphic novels. BTW my favorite movie is Goodfellas.
I personally agree with him in believing the marvel movies are less than. They often churn out action without plot (when a whole half of the movie can be broken down into “they fought “, it’s objectively poor writing). They stray from source material that was so beloved, when I believe that if you adapt a source material, it shouldn’t get lost in that adaptation. And I think we should be encouraging less 'fast food' movies and more variety. Too much of anything can be a bad and narrowing thing for any person.
I don’t think his comment is meant in a racist or sexist way as some commenters thought.
On your clinical note, the convenience of an inflammatory comment right before his own film release is suspect FOR SURE. 👀👀👀
But I think there are objective and subjective ideas that needs to be mixed when it comes to breaking down a good or bad movie. I can enjoy all my b-sci-fi all I want, but I don’t pretend it’s as good or worthy of praise as an Oscar award winner. That’s not paying proper respect to the great writers, talents, and processes that make timeless works of art vs temporary entertainment that you may return to when you want to veg out.
But I don’t think this can be directly compared to elitism with fiction genres, since marvel isn’t a whole genre. It’s a particular formula for the marvel movies themselves. If elitists with adult vs ya fiction took time to read books outside their genre, they’d know how many brilliant writers fill every niche.
I think it would be an easier comparison if say, someone shit exclusively on Agatha Christie cozy mysteries vs a universal “narrative fiction”. Then we have a case like Scorsese’s remarks. 🤷🏼♀️
RBGaming I think ignoring the deep parts of Marvel movies just because they’re dumb action flicks is ridiculous. Iron Man is about a weapons manufacturer who goes through hell, realises the harm he’s caused, and vows to make it right, only to end up becoming a weapon himself. The sequel deals with his fear of his own death as the thing that saved his life is slowly poisoning him. After the Avengers he has PTSD for the rest of the series, causing him to act irrationally and create more problems. Civil War is about the clash of the characters’ ideals. Black Panther’s story is entirely sociopolitical. Guardians of the Galaxy 2 is about working through the trauma of abusive families. Doctor Strange is about a man who is utterly humbled by his own hubris and has his views and ideals challenged in every possible way. And that’s just off the top of my head. Just because you don’t see these things doesn’t mean they’re not there, and people don’t just watch these movies for easy fun, they do it because they’re invested in the characters and story and world this series has built up.
I suppose any media made for entertainment can’t also make a point? So Terry Nation was wasting his time when he invented the daleks as a parallel to Nazism. When the writers of Doctor Who put their fear of the advancement of medical technology into the cybermen, or the cold war into the silurians, it was pointless.
Karkat Vantas No, I've seen those and honestly enjoyed a lot of the original marvel movies. Rehashing the same format with Universal stakes beyond the scope of the character arcs, and providing us with vapid entertainment when their was so much potential...that's what makes them less than for me.
The source material for Ironman has so much depth and addresses his alcoholism and major trauma ftom childhood all the way through his role in the avengers.
Thanos picking his twisted ultimate good over his daughter was moving, especially when she asked “what did it cost you?” “Everything”
Then you get bad writing like quicksilver and the scarlet witch, where we get no major development yet are supposed to feel upset when quicksilver dies in Ultron, just for dramatic effect.
I feel like marvel did a disservice to a lot of what you pointed out by falling into the Michael Bay Effect and replacing meaningful story with explosions, collapsed buildings, forced drama, forcing a black widow/hulk arc out of nowhere. I originally stayed for the good characters AND awesome action. But When character writers and readers and watchers all begin to drop off of a franchise for the same issue - lack of genuine depth - it’s a call to go back to your roots. DC is guilty of this as well. Just look at Batman v Superman 😒
Karkat Vantas and as a side note, I do love some Dr who, and some parts are amazing, while the writing suffers on other parts. But I'm still proud of liking it. I still don't make it out to be great when I'm pitching it. Hell, X-Files, sg-1, Stargate Atlantis, star trek, and star wars all have great AND horrible writing.
But they can make points and be vitally important to people. But that's the side of liking something that's not always tied to objective writing skill 🤷🏼♀️
It's not poor writing... You might not appreciate it ... But if a writer can fill up 2 hours of cinema "without a plot" ... Then he is one hell of a writer...
@@KaterinaDeAnnika Objective writing skills just don't exist, unless you want to claim that you can objectively rate art...
Great video. I think your thoughts on Scorsese are one of the best summations of the situation I've come across so far.
Thank you! I’ve enjoyed seeing the conversations about it :)
That's funny because I bawled during Avengers: End Game and also cried while I was on the Flight of Passage at Disney world animal kingdom.
I enjoy both kind of movies, if I loved Once Upon a time in Hollywood, that doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy Endgame. On the contrary I felt more emotionally moved by Endgame in comparison, especially when Tony Stark died. If a movie is good, it is good, doesn't have to do with genre or anything, personal enjoyment is the only thing that matters.
Wow dont think I've ever been this early! My notification box is always late but I happened to see this in suggested! Woo! 😊
What series are the books in the right corner with the spine art and red numbers
Vagabond
For anybody that thinks superhero movies are meaningless and don't make you feel any emotions etc. Please go watch cinema wins Endgame. It explains why people like really well (especially part 2)
Sometimes I just want to turn my brain off... a marvel movie is a nice mental break.
Really enjoy your content. Have given me great insight with my personal endeavor to produce my ver3own Fantasy novel.
That’s awesome! Best of luck :D
I love what you said about making these comments never makes you look smarter. I will never understand why people don’t just let others love what they love without trying to make someone feel inferior.
Liking what you like:
The stumbling block for too many people is they define themselves and others by what they like.
Furthermore people like to believe themselves as above average intelligence if not just like really smart, and so the things they like must also be smart, clever, artful, or other adjective they aspire to.
In my movie viewing I have a place for Martin Scorsese, and the Marvel, superhero movies. His movies impact me emotionally, like 'Raging Bull', 'Gangs of New York', and so many of the others. It is easy to see the genius in his works. But often though too, I love fun, 'theme park' type movies, like Marvel, and will always have a place for them.
I have never been one to judge, or put pressure on people, because of their taste for books, movies, music, etc. We are just little peas in a big giant pod.
YES 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Sadly people just like to put other people down. Half the time I don't think the believe what they say they just like to see the hurt and out rage their comment causes.
People that like to buy other people down because of what they enjoy are just like bullies is a play ground. It's sad that as adults we can't just discuss what we like and dislike without belittling other people.
I'm so hard to offend... All I thought as I read that was "hey, I absolutely LOVE theme parks" Hahahaha!
Now, I can't help but think that Martin must feel a liiitle bit jealous when he sees how much the Avengers, for example, made in the box office lol
Aaahhh why is it about the money? Ridley Scott is considered a legend for making Blade Runner even though that movie bombed and Denis Villeneuve is one of the best (if not the best directors working today) and most of his movies don't do well from a financial perspective. I think validation and reputation are two things that can still be achieved without the movie naking money, look at Bumblebee.
Yeah. People like the Transformer movies. Those make Millions every year. By your logic those are on the top movies ever made.
By your logic Transformer movies are high art.
@@screamityeah Don't you dare belittle the genius of Michael Bay. The God of sexist concepts,irrational plots and pointless explosions.
@@hamzaorakzai3490
Sorry 😶
@@screamityeah I personally have never and will never watch a transformers movie! I doesn't interest me one bit and, in my opinion, was very poorly made! But I'm not going to judge people who like it! Props to Michael Bay for knowing how to make a lot of money lol...
I think he just wanted to make a difference between cinema as an art form and cinema as an entertainment form.
A stronger argument lies in the criticism of consumer culture, which he didn't adress.
Preach girl!! Man just let people like what they like and quit judging them 🙄🙄
I think he was judging the movies and not the people who watches them. I think we should be able to judge movies.
He said people who watch Marvel movies think that’s what cinema is. Most people who watch Marvel movies are capable of knowing other things are cinema.
I totally agree with Scorsese. Except the very beginning.
Besides that he is totally on point
No malazan or Stormlight video? Coming soon?
Haha, we had a busy weekend, but we’ll be talking about them soon 😄
I like this take. I haven't been enjoying YA books lately because I'm not in a place in my life where I enjoy or relate to a kid saving the world. I'm just not there. I loved them when I was younger and I get that other people like it, but it's not for me right now. I worry that if I say I don't like YA people will assume it's for snobbish reasons. Like, I'm reading a book right now that was labeled adult fantasy, but I think should have been labelled YA. It's about a young fresh out of school captain saving the day and showing the older crew that she's got what it takes which feels very YA to me. I don't like it because it has a lot of the tropes I don't like in YA. I don't think it's a bad book for that, but it should be marketed to an audience that's looking for that and it's going to get a low rating from me.
Okay I didn't know anything about these comments but yess they fo sound like people who are like YA is just for fun or non fiction is good stuff.
I don’t buy the “you don’t gain anything from YA” that is only used to belittle people with different taste. As you said, people seek different things in the books/movies they enjoy. However, I can agree with the argument that a majority of YA fiction don’t necessarily try to challenge the reader from an analytical standpoint. Things such as sentence structure, level of formality and imagery sometimes isn’t that difficult in YA books. But YA can like any type of fiction convey a story about the human condition.
He is entitled to his opinions, but that does not mean he is not a snob. He is. Cinema is not a particular kind of movie, it is all movies. And despite having a enjoyed a few of the Marvel movies I'm in no way a 'fan' of the franchise.
The only problem with what he said was, " they don't covey emotions to another character", which they do, a lot; but I will mostly read and watch super hero stories no matter what. Cinema and film are just fancier words for movies, so you're absolutely right in that regard!
I'm a marketer, when you mentioned it was a marketing strategy, I was already thinking that it seemed interesting he was putting himself into the radar using buzzwords like "marvel", "theme park", and "cinema". I think your thoughts on it might be more accurate than you think.
This is coming from the guy who makes the same type of Italian, mafioso movies over and over again.
Like what you like, and let people like what they like.
He's made like 3 mafia movies in his life. He's made comedies, children's movies, horror movies, romances, documentaries, etc. Anyone who accesses Scorsese of sameness isn't familiar with his work
Jonmad17 My film class is college was nothing but Socrsese movies. Even his bio includes “his body of work being Italian-American identity, Roman Catholic concepts of guilt and redemption, faith, machismo, modern crime, and gang conflict.”
No, not all his movies are mafia movies but that’s what he’s known most for not romance movies etc. Like cmon bud.
@@ArchivesOfJina He's most known for Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, The Last Temptation of Christ, The Aviator, The Wolf of Wall Street, Gangs of New York, The Departed, and Goodfellas. One of those is a mafia movie, two of those are gangster films. Again, the vast majority of his oeuvre has nothing to do with organized crime. He only became associated with mafia movies after the huge success of Goodfellas.
Elliot making a Bill Burr reference is the highlight of my freaking week!!! ☺ but yeah, I'm pretty uninterested in these issues and conversations (not yours, but ppl who think like Scorsese and actually believe their opinion will change other ppl's minds). Like what you like and move on. Life is too short to not enjoy things just bc other ppl don't deem them "intellectual" or "valuable" to society.
Agree! Haha, and Bill Burr is hilarious 😆
It was a shot at Deniro for being in Joker.
It’s an incredibly in-eloquent quote from Martin Scorsese. I had to read it a few times and I’m still not sure what he’s trying to say. Cinema is or should only be considered narrative films? But he admires the effort put into marvel movies? I think he realised that he sounded rude and tried to backtrack. There’s so many ways he could have said it better, or at least clearer. For some reason I thought he’d be quite well spoken. It’s just a stupid quote to be honest.
He’s also odd in assuming that people who see marvel movies only go and see marvel movies, which is a problem I have with people who make fun of genre fiction or YA. The assumption that they’re only interested in those movies/books and have never ever deviated is ludicrous in my mind but seems to be taken as a given any time someone stars trying to argue ‘high culture’ is better than ‘low culture’. It’s the same people interacting with both.
Yes, I think implying those who enjoy Marvel movies now are thinking that’s what cinema is implies no one who enjoys Marvel can like or appreciate other movies is a bit strange. I like sweets-I also like salty food. Liking one doesn’t mean I suddenly think that’s what all food should be or is 🥴
I found the baby food analogy very funny, not necessarily accurate, but definitely funny.
What it comes down to is that different people enjoy different genres, styles, moods, … And age-rating for books often doesn't line up with the age of the readers.
Using the same analogy a chef could make great baby food and you could eat a bad paella from a convenience store, in that case the baby food would be better than the paella.
I'm not into baby food, regardless of how good it is, but that's just my personal taste.
EDIT: Regarding the movies, a cinema used to be seen in the same way as a gallery/museum or (classical) concert, you can see common movies on tv or dvd or stream them online, but you can go to a cinema to enjoy a "higher artform", and I do think among others Disney (and Marvel) is responsible for lowering standards to appeal to the masses, but that doesn't divert opinions, it just diverts what cinema is. But that's what Disney has been doing for a hundred years now, making everything worse so they can make more money of things they didn't make in the first place. That's no surprise to me.
The last few years it has been mostly superhero movies and disney remakes- Im alittle over them at this point. I wish there was more of an even variety. But, Im in then "you do you boo" camp.. If a movie/book/puppies whatever makes you happy, excited and brightens your day then screw other people- be happy 👌😀
I get what he's saying. If my local small art theaters started only adapting plays from cheesy 80s action movies. Like Rambo 2 or Raw Deal just to draw a larger audience. Instead of the classics , emotional and relationship based material that we find precious. It would be met with resentment. But at the same time comic based material is the modern day westerners that his generation loved so much and I dare to say he even modeled many of his own movies on. I do miss art house movies I grew up with in the70s. How ever I loved the last Thor movie.I never dreamed Jack Kirby 's art style could by accurately depicted in motion pictures. Or when I read the first issue of then New X men that my uncle brought home from the news stand the day it was released. It would come alive on the screen. Things change, is hard for all of us. We're all subjects of that literary device- person vs time.
Love you lol
Scar Jo didn't literally cry into a peanut butter sandwich for someone to say it "isn't conveying emotional, psychological experiences" 😡
In all seriousness though it's nothing new for an old school (and obviously brilliant) artist to think any non-linear evolution is a deviation to the medium. I think he meant well, despite sounding like a bit of a d-bag. Either way, everyone at Marvel will be crying into their #1 grossing movie of all time accolade, I'm sure 😂
People are always entitled to their own opinions. But at the end of the day, it really matters how you say what you want to say and how you refuse taking in something you don’t want. People at the top of the ladder really need to learn that.
100%. One can have legitimate criticisms against The MCU and DCEU (or whatever it's called now) without the need to be condescending.
This just in: general populace unable to comprehend genres 😂😂😂
Loved The Last Waltz, but I don't remember it having much of a narrative...
If everything is subjective and there is no universal value that can be assigned to a given book/film, why do film schools and creative writing courses even exist?
(The above is sarcasm)
But truthfully I'm not totally sure if all forms of art can only ever be qualified subjectively.
Well one thing should be considered universal fact: The 50 shades 'books' and 'movies' are a disgrace to every single artist who's put blood,sweat and tears in to perfecting their craft and should be considered as unequivocal *dogshit*
*adjusts monocle* I only watch motion pictures.
I love the YA snobs who tell me, "Oh, if it's not YA it's old and stuffy and boooooring." I just laugh and keep on reading what I want to read.
Okay, how weird is it that I got an ad for Martin Scorsese’s Masterclass right before this video? 🤔
I agree with you completely, btw. I think Scorsese is entitled to his opinion, I respect his opinion, but I disagree with his opinion. I think there’s no distinction between “narrative films” and “theme park movies” - if they’re movies, they’re cinema. It’s simple as that.
Hahaha, RUclips probably assigned that ad because his name is in the description bar.
WHY CAN'T WE JUST HAVE FUN? why does every book and movie and tv show have to be serious and deep? can't they just be fun?!?
I don't agree, but when I saw Joker, I was blown away. To me, I was like, "This is how I want comic book movies to be. If the comic is dark, the film should be dark." I noticed with DC Titans, they take it to a darker place. I appreciate it being truer to the comics, and Gotham is a grim place. Push the boundaries. If the movie fits the tone of the comic, then that's fine. I think Marvel just has a tendency to appeal to a wider audience, including children...and that's okay too. But, I feel (please don't attack me) that fits Marvel's tone more. Still, Spider-Man can make me cry. His little chin tremble, kills me. But, not all movies need to be serious. We watch comedies, for instance. And, I don't believe all YA has to be serious. Some are fluffy, and some are hard-hitting. I've read some beautifully written YA fantasy/contemporary, where I connected so much with the characters or their situations. All in all, films and books serve different purposes.Simple as that. And, like what you like.
My view on YA is that is that its targeting an age group and as you grow older it should decrease in how important it is too you. It's supposed to be a transition media to go from childhood to adulthood. That being said they are still worth while books and can be very impactful, just make sure you read beyond it.
What if some individuals find that-in their off time-they don’t want to read something demanding? What someone chooses to read doesn’t determine their intelligence or value. People reading only YA doesn’t impact my life in the slightest, so I don’t care 🤷🏻♀️
@@ebnovels I fully understand wanting easy reads, I read way more of that then deep books. Some of my favorites are YA including stuff like Don't tell my parents I'm a supervillain. I fully agree that reading YA doesn't make you less intelligent. C. S. Lewis has a very good quote that's related. But there are still things which aren't YA, that are easy and fun to read. It's a disservice to say that Adult = hard.
So when I say the amount of YA should decrease when you are outside of the age range I don't mean to zero just not 100%. There are just places that publishers will not allow in a YA book to go that fun adult books can.
And yeah other people's taste have absolutely no effect on my life. The worst outcome could ever be is a discussion.
I wouldn't be surprised if Scorsese saw 20 minutes of Aquaman and Suicide Squad, and thought they were Marvel movies. He is clearly making these comments out of prejudice, because they are just too general to make any sense.
Most movies are bad. I can say the same thing about crime movies, I can say I tried to see crime movies and they are not cinema without saying which movies I actually saw. Nobody would know if my understanding of crime movies was 30 minutes of a couple of terrible movies I saw on Netflix while cleaning my apartment. If Scorsese said "I saw the Infinity War and it is not cinema, because of these reasons," it would be perfectly fine to me.
Same thing with George R. R. Martin saying video games aren't art. Which video games? Candy Crush or Planescape: Torment. And same with the prejudice against YA, fantasy, and comics.
I respect superhero comics but I hate superhero movies (they're sooo bad). I did think watchman was pretty cool tho
I hate superhero movies and I do think there is a legitimate criticism that our culture is wanting to escape too much rather than deal with what is in front of us. More serious, narrative movies force us to see reality, sometimes in a new light, we don't want to see. That being said there is a big difference between the MCU than say Transformers. The MCU is at least trying to tell a good story and I do believe from what I have heard that the Avengers especially was deeply moving and made some pretty powerful points. I do think there is a danger to too much escapism and losing touch with reality, but I think that modern (or rather post-modern and beyond) escapism does transport us elsewhere and yet keeps us grounded in the real world. I have read so many fantasy novels that caused me to reflect on life and purpose in the real world. I don't think less of folks who like escapism, but I do worry that our society, including myself, is drifting too far into our entertainment and forgetting about the people around us. Escape how you want, but don't forget the real troubles of your community.
I, too, like other kinds of movies more than Marvel/typical superhero movies, but I don't see why you would need to talk them down to make yourself feel better or superior because of it. Also, aren't they just different genres of movies? No one would seriously compare, for example, a Stephen King book with a contemporary romance, so why do it with movies? You can like the one thing over the other, but that doesn't make it a superior form of literature/moviemaking. It's too different to even compare.
How much of an overlap is there between the people you see being outraged at Scorseses comment and disparaging comics and genre fiction? Because the latter sounds a lot more like something his target audience, the people who might agree with him, would say.
I think Martin is right in that Comic Book movies aren’t as deep or complex as “proper films”, however I think he is wrong in saying that isn’t cinema. I’m not the biggest fan of marvel movies, but isn’t hype and anticipation and adrenaline psychological human experiences? If all the latest Spider-Man movie is trying to communicate is how awesome Spider-Man is, that movie is still communicating something. Just bc you don’t value it doesn’t mean it’s an entirely different medium
To be honest, I, on average, dislike the kind of movies Marvel are churning out. I don't like generalising but having seen the majority of them, I like a very small percentage for exactly the same reasons - mainly that the humour in a lot of them isn't my thing, and that on principle the corporate motivation behind it all is hard for me to look past. Not that other movies don't want to make money too, but I just think that Marvel and those trying to recreate its success (looking at you DC) are flooding our cinemas with very similar content, knowing people will pay to see it, when I want to be seeing innovation and variety on a visit to my local multiplex. So many talented people, and SO much money, are involved in making them which I think could be put to better use de-homogenising the film industry. But that's just my opinion.
So, in a way, I agree with Scorsese. What I don't agree with is him calling these movies 'not cinema'. I personally don't like them, but they have narratives. They have characters which actually have a lot more depth than in many 'Oscar-worthy' movies, mostly because they've had so many films to develop. People obviously connect with them, are awed by them, and are moved by them. I love a lot of Scorsese's movies, and these are the kinds of things I feel towards them, but I think it would also be a shame to just discount what he thinks isn't 'cinema', and revere what he thinks is. Because that would be homogenisation too, just at the other end of the scale.
My cinematic utopia is to have a crazy mix of movies coming out every weekend, so I can expose myself to the thoughts and talents of a hugely diverse array of filmmakers. That won't ever happen, because capitalism, but steps can be made to get there. Dismissing movies as 'not cinema' isn't going to help. If anything, their vast popularity tells us something about ourselves, about our cultural zeitgeist. And that's fascinating in itself.
I agree so much! Especially on the humor aspect. I think the humor in the Marvel movies has gone down significantly. However, I’m with you in that not considering them cinema, or having such extreme limitations to what cinema can be, isn’t something I can agree with 🤷🏻♀️
Elliot Brooks I’m really liking these videos where you address recent hot takes/comments from articles or celebs. Would love to see more of them - keep up the amazing work!
I think he's wrong, but he's allowed to his own opinion. I know I have opinions that people don't agree with (for instance I really want to after i finish the audible of Wheel of Time, I'm going to start the Dark Tower series because I can't actually stand to read Stephen King, he's boring, but to have on while I'm doing something else, it's good, and I do enjoy his concepts, people do not agree, oh well). No point in going at each other because your not going to get anyone to change their mind.
Having an opinion about something is fine :) Having a conversation about it is also fine 😊
@@ebnovels I was just thinking that sometimes people get offended at others opinions, like it somehow personally attacks them. Should have seen the look on a friends face recently when I said I didn't care for Firefly. Would have thought I kicked a puppy with her response. Anyway, your book reviews are awesome I don't have a lot of time to read and I have to choose what I do carefully.
Haha, that makes sense :) I said in the video too that nothing he’s said really impacts me in any way, but I did think his statements were interesting enough to have a conversation about 😄
It's funny, as a backlash to Scorsese I'm seeing a lot of people doing exactly what they're claiming he's doing by getting on their high horse (not you, for the record).
I have to say that as a fan of a sword&sorcery and swashbuckling fantasy, I often get this kind of elitism from epic fantasy fans who seem to think theirs is the most highbrow of fantasy fiction. I don't really know why people get their panties in a knot about it, I just sort of find it amusing.
I think there's definitely a lot that Marvel could do to improve their movies. I'm a fan but I've stopped going to the cinema for them because it feels like I'm watching the same movie over and over again. That being said, I wholly disagree with Scorsese's reasoning for putting the movies down because his logic seems to be " you shouldn't like these films because they aren't what I've defined as cinema".
Maybe I've oversimplified, but he does seem to have a prejudicial attitude that's more to do with the type of movies they are, rather than with the specific content of any given movie. It's judgement based on difference which is really never a fair way of judging anything.
Idk if you seen the Joker movie that's out right now (I suggest you do, I highly recommend it), but there's a line that stuck out to me.
It's where (very minor spoilers) Joker's on the talk show surrounded by elites who don't like his morbid sense of humour and he tells them: "who are you to decide what's funny and what's not".
That's such a great line imo because it's shows how elites in the media and pop culture often try to dictate what people's opinions should be top down. Rather than simply allowing people to form their own opinions and like and dislike whatever they like or dislike.
I got told the other day that I wasn't a real writer because "You write trash like fantasy and horror. Come talk to me when you write a real novel"
🙄 so frustrating.
@@ebnovels I know right
My problem with his statements aren’t that he doesn’t like super hero movies, the problem is that he talks them as inferior and unworthy of the status of ‘cinema’ as if he’s the ultimate authority on what comes to that. It’s being elitist at its finest and there’s no going around it. It’s his opinion and he’s entitled to it, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s an elitist opinion
Pretty much it's the perfect fill in the blank sentence for anything you don't like. You could switch it out for romance or comedy or even mafia movies instead of marvel movies and it would be no less valid.
No
I agree :)
I am a huge comic book fan and sadly the type of thinking Mr. Scorsese showed is nothing new. Most people, just don't see much value in comics. They are seen as "kid stuff" to be read and dismissed soon after. And anyone who likes them beyond childhood is strange and pathetic. Bill Maher is a clear example of such people. But, there are many deep, touching stories about people. In fact, the most famous, influential comics are about the characters, not just flashy costumes and fight scenes. Those not into comics miss that, and so base their opinions on incomplete information. And even the less sophisticated comics still provide much needed entertainment. It just stinks that the thing we love is so easily dismissed by others.
It seems like he’s talking about thematic depth in terms of what cinema is and I don’t see any reason why a superhero movie couldn’t reach that level of depth.
I had an old friend of mine who was saying I should be reading textbooks other than comic books! Especially a former tutor of mine. I just can't even stand people like that nowadays. Ew!
I don't know the context, but maybe he feels invaded by entertainment-based cinema because studios are less and less inclined to make dramas. They want to make what sells so young/controversial/independent (etc) artists are losing opportunities because they can't make a movie without a studio's funding. He's an established name, he will find funding, but others won't. He probably could have worded it better.
Lol! I read middle grade. I’ll buy some diapers.
It’s kinda similar to lyrical rappers vs mumble rappers in hip hop. Lyrical rappers make the remark that though mumble rap might be catchy, they don’t see it having anything of substance. The art of story, lyricism, meaningful lyrics etc is lost on mumble rappers. Almost like any wannabe rapper can just put whatever words together, slap a nice catchy beat on it and all of a sudden it becomes a classic hip hop song. But it’s getting to the point where mumble rap becomes real hip hop and rappers like Tupac, Biggie, Nas etc is of a bygone era. Meaningful, well-crafted hip hop songs is just meh. Some folks might want more well crafted movies but everyone should go see comic book movies because comic book movies with simple stories, basic cinematography, spiced up with VFX, explosions and action scenes are real movies....real cinema. That’s what he’s trying to say... Go read real, well-written, well-crafted fiction like “Fifty Shades” series. I mean they made a boat load of money right? *sarcasm*
The cinema was created by the Lumiere Brothers for entertainment and grow as an entertainment industry.
that's just sour grapes because their last films after the Wolf of Wall Street were pretty much ignored
I personally don't like YA fiction because I can't identify with the protagonist because I can't see myself as ever being that sophisticated, insightful or sensible as a 16 yo or I that I wasn't as naive, assholish or immature. All things teenage make me cringe now.
I agree with you and I don't think the idea cynical that part of the motivation for this comment is for publicity itself. That is how the media world works. Regarding the "invading" part. I'm gonna make an admittedly very provocative comparison here. Just imagine porn was allowed on yt and suddenly huge porn companies would move billions in assets into producing youtube porn potentially threatening your channel being left barren, how would you feel? Would you think your criticism would "limit" the porn industry for no reason? I think that is how he feels. I know this comparison isn't really accurate but you said you didn't understand so this is my attempt at explaining. (I don't want to judge porn here btw.) I fully agree with your view of the actual reality tho. edit: I just realized this could be misunderstood very badly. I don't intend to compare your channel to porn! that was just the first big industry not on youtube that came to mind!
Few years ago I would argue with you for 3 hours to make you understand that there are objectively better and worse things in art. But now I actually wonder - what we need this objective betterness for? What if the words like "genius", "incredible", "amazing" were just words to describe culture for us? I always thought without objective measures of good art noone would actually make a good art but I think it is not true. Some people are talented or skilled and it will never change. Some people just want to make things they like and sometimes people love it too. We don't have to promote it, we don't have to make it objective. I am already sick of this elitism and classism and snobbism in the art world. I think interpreting and analysing art on your own is more important than consuming only "good stuff". And explaining why we lik some things without learning from others what is good or what is bad.
Exactly, what did they expect but also don't be condescending.
Personally I don't like taking a quote and jumping all over it, which has become a thing.
Aside from the fact that when talking the words coming out of your mouth might not fully represent what you feel or think, quotes by nature are just snippets taken out of their context. Meaning can get lost, placed or (mis)interpreted.
Not attacking this vid or choice of topic. As ever I fully agree on your stance that people should enjoy what they enjoy and respect differing opinions 👍😊
But is what is said that bad? I don't think so ..
He respects the creators of the MCU, but says it isn't _for him_. Fine.
He likens the MCU to theme parks. Valid.
I think he mostly laments as a cinematographer the vast swathes of people for whom those action packed blockbusters are the Be All and End All of their movie experiences or desires. Again, I can agree.
Rob Paul He literally double downed and said they are not cinema at BFI, again. It’s not 2009 anymore, we don’t have to bend over back to say Scorsese meant something else than what he was. So, there is no question of interpretation when he double downs and says that theatres need to rise above this.
I didn’t of course read the whole interview in this video, but I don’t think his statements are presented unfairly by me not reading the whole interview. His points are still the same, and while I don’t necessarily disagree that his movies and marvel movies are different kinds of movies, I can’t agree that insisting one kind is cinema and one kind isn’t is true.
@@ebnovels
No your take on this was fairly presented, certainly wasn't just quote-bashing. The parallel with books was also good.
I think it comes down to how we view certain definitions. Cinema and movies is similar to literature and books.
Are all movies and books works of art? Yes.
Are all movies and books cinema or literature? I don't think so. That's not saying it's a bad thing .
Sure he is allowed his opinion, but maybe don’t start it by saying you DON’T WATCH the movies.... his comments are very loaded, but that’s like saying “ I never saw that movie, but gah the acting was terrible!” Or “ I never read that book, but my golly the plot was stale and unoriginal”. Completely invalidates what he then says.
ALSO, apparently he is the one who brought the idea of Joker (2019) to the studio, which hello.... based on a comic book character... and it is in theaters right now!?
I disagree. I think most super hero things are rubbish. However I totally respect other people's right to enjoy them. Why not? I bet that they're great fun. YA is great too, Again they may not be linguistically as complex as Chaucer or Shakespeare, but what they write is pretty difficult. Who said difficult is better. Not me. I just prefer the challenge. Blues is great too. It isn't Mozart. Blues is often three simple chords, but it's great. I play a musical instrument. Mozart is is hard. It doesn't make it better.
I love classical music. I love the classics. I don't think it is superior the other genres though. I just prefer them. I have highlighted their greater complexity, but that it just accedemic. What I disagree with is; I think just because you like the classics and prefer then doesn't mean you think other genres are inferior.
i hate dramas and rom com movies. i never go to the movies to watch anything other than blockbusters. apparently, i wasn't watching cinema.
A dictionary can explain what cinema actually is... Everyone else is just making stuff up because they've got their own ideas and if anything dare taint that they get offended.
Hardly a big deal in this case, his comment was pretty tame and makes no difference. Unless there's a movement growing right now to get hero movies banned from theaters... *Gasps*
The statement is very pretencious... I am not mad... just disappointed. Stories are stories, you may like them or not... does it make it better if the character is a mobster? or has powers or rides a Dragon?... Ok... anything with a Dragon is clearly better XD... but that's not the point! Stories are stories... the wording he chose for a guy of his caliber is kind of unfortunate. That said... one of my favorite stories of all time... and my favorite comic book story.... is "Invincible" RECOMMENDED!
I agree with you on the elitism toward ya and genre fiction, as well as comics. And when you mentioned your reaction to people who try to look fancy by disliking something, I was like, "Me too!"
Haha, it never makes me think they look any more intelligent or “correct.”
Yeah, I've never understood why some people want or feel the need to *YUK* another person's *YUM* . After all, what you eat doesn't make me sh*t (and vice versa). You don't get to tell me what's "good" and what's "not good". You like/don't like something - fine, but you don't get to tell me that if I like something you don't like, you're somehow "above" me. #GTFOOHWTBS
I think most, if not all, people have a bit of “elitism” in them when it comes to their interests: this explains why people have a gut reaction when they hear another person say they prefer a film adaptation of a book they love to the actual book, or when someone says they’re favorite movies are “chick flicks”, or when someone’s favorite music is top 40s over “classics”.
In some strange way, it’s the feelings of elitism that binds some groups together (we have more taste than you guys, we are superior to you inferiors). It’s so common! At any rate, as you stated the important thing is not to lose touch with reality and realize we all have different interests and value and it’s ok!
No need to put others down to lift yourself up, ya know?
Thats not how you pronounce Scorsese lol !! I agree Marvel movies generally lack substance. If im tired and i dont want to think then a Marvel movie is perfect.
I prefer foreign films over Hollywood. With that being said I have friends who hate those movies because they have to read them. Do I wish Hollywood would do better? Sure do but I am not going to dog people for watching American movies. Maybe Scorsese could make a movie on par with... JK.
I mean, you can turn this story around really. Like there is really no way to ever tell to an comic or YA reader that you don't particularly like those with them immediatly start to look for judgement. What is it with this need for comics and YA to be part of the imaginated elitist part of this particular artform. It's really hard to tell anyone for that matter that you prefer "deeper" litterature without sounding like a complete snob or someone who wants to come over as smart, but what if you just genuinly care more about that more boring way of storytelling? For me Marvel doesn't do it because it's too reliant on the awe factor. And not much things in life still awe me. Even that might once again unintentionally uninevidably sound snobbish, you really can't win. You can't argue about tastes and colors. You can just express and relate with others or not.
I agree that it’s about personal taste. Imo, he took it a step beyond by saying that the thing he likes is cinema, and the thing he doesn’t like isn’t. If someone who reads fiction tells a genre fiction reader that what they like isn’t a story, I would think they’re being ridiculous. If they said, “I don’t like fantasy,” then they’re just stating their preference. It’s incredibly easy to state what one likes without sounding or being pretentious.
@@ebnovels I'd say you're right, it's quite over the top to claim it isn't part of cinema. Every thing has it's place in their own niche but I have noticed that people often like things for the same reason others don't like something. QSure it's easy to state what you like and what not but as soon as you ask for the reason why you're in dangerous territory. For example, someone who doesn't like fantasy probably doesn't (eg,) because it's all made up nonesense. Which is probably exactly why others like it (because it transcents reality). Or someone likes Marvel cause it's good fun while others don't like it because it's just that, fun. So if you explain why you do or don't like something you're most likely to be met with some kind of
incomprehension. I don't know if I'm explaining it clearly. Or that it even trully is a thing or wether I'm just seeing things xD