Dr. Michael Shermer - “Are the Miracles of Jesus Unbelievable?” Debate Postmortem (AMA # 5)
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
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bit.ly/ScienceSalonAMA5
In this AMA special Dr. Shermer conducts a postmortem on his debate with the evangelical Christian theologian Luuk van de Weghe, with Windmill Ministries, before an audience of about 400 people, the vast majority of which were evangelicals. Dr. Shermer argues in the affirmative to the debate proposition that the miracles of Jesus are unbelievable. In this postmortem Dr. Shermer elaborates on his notes for the debate, suggesting ways to think about miracles from a scientific or naturalistic perspective.
AMA # 5 was recorded on April 5, 2019 as part of the Science Salon series hosted by Michael Shermer and presented by The Skeptics Society, in California.
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I love this guy ! Just explain everything what I’ve been questioning the whole life
excellent. perfect for Easter Sunday. I was raised Roman Catholic, and now i'm an atheist. what a difference!
I, too, was raised as a Catholic. Today, I am an atheist.
🤔 💭
@@rickr.9803
And do you think belief in God is accurately portrayed by Shermer in *ruclips.net/user/shorts6KHvNrLO6qU?si=qiCzH6uidb5cXL76* or do you believe that is merely Shermer playing the propagandist?
Thanks for posting! Looking forward to the full debate.
Your tone of voice is so calm and reasonable. How do you expect to prevail over the passionate, fiery oratory of "true religion"?
A perfect thing to listen to on Easter Sunday!
I can't wait. I love a good debate.
I AM ALWAYS ASTONISHED AS TO WHY PEOPLE BELIEVE IN NONSENSE ! IT SEEMS TOO MANY OF WE HUMANS LACK CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS AND JUST BELIEVE BECAUSE WE WANT TO BELIEVE THERE ARE STILL UNSOLVED MYSTERIES !
logic gates on jesus' miracles -- Jesus's miracles are not merely random acts of kindness and power, but- ...... Let us consider the healing of the sick man at the Sheep Gate, in. John 5.
I really enjoyed this format.
I'm in Sequim Wa. and had no idea you held a debate here until today.
Helpful, thanks for the recount of your experience
I only wish I could come across as pleasant and calm as you do. I think the problem I need to overcome, is the hate I have toward religion. I was born into a cult, my father the cult leader, it destroyed my life. So I have serious issues as to the amount of psychological damage religion causes. I feel like 90% of my life was wasted. I was controlled so harshly you cant imagine. So I am not a very nice atheist. I am probably extreme atheist if there is such a thing. Religion is a serious problem we have. It is deadly. So I take my atheism very seriously. It is a very personal thing for me. I wish I could be nicer because I have a lot to say and a story to tell. I see religion from a very unique perspective and want a healthy society for the future of mankind.
i understand why you are an atheist, and I understand why you are angry. It's going to be OK. I was incredibly angry(rageful) for a long long time, but it eventually calmed down, and there is peace now.
Tracy D sorry you had such a devastating life experience. I am a tolerant atheist because I was more inconvenienced rather than hurt by religion but I would be very angry otherwise. I don’t think you have to apologize for being resentful just explain your reasons for being so. The most important thing IMO is never conflate hatred for religion with hatred for religious people because often religious people are just brainwashed victims. Best wishes for your life. ❤️
Tracy D - I was raised without belief so religion has never been a part of my life and will never be. But even my siblings, as they married and had children have succumbed to it in order to get along in society and I resent that about religion. And I resent that it took me until my old age to begin “to come out” as an atheist. Religion is evil.
All events are unique if described in detail. Thus they are all very rare and will never be repeated.
Good video.
Good 'ol Dr. Shermer!
Yes true as Michael, extra-ordinary claims need extra-ordinary evidence.
Regarding Jesus' alleged healing the sick,,,,its so absurd,,,i like Kenneth Humphrey's comment " how is it that Jesus; the Co Creator of the Universe did not know the germ theory of disease but rather resorted to casting out demons and evil spirits from those needing healing??
Is this worth watching before seeing the actual debate? I.e. any spoiler alerts?
It's actually just a repeat of his main points in the debate. I would recommend just watching the debate to get the back and forth dialogue.
@@jesselazar2928 Thanks!
If christians expect people to believe their extraordinary claims about Jesus - such as his extraordinary miracles that suspend the natural laws of the universe,,,,then the onus is on them to give us the extraordinary evidence to prove it,,,not on the critics to disprove it,,,,and i havent seen one piece of evidence to prove jesus ' alleged miracles much less to prove that jesus even existed as a historical figure...case closed i would have to say
Is that a painting of Hitchens over Shermers right shoulder? The hair is hard to read but the face is eerily similar. I know that they were friends.
I thought it was Hitchens - quite a chubby faced Hitchens. I thought the one below may be a self-portrait - quite a thin faced self-portrait
@@mutleyeng
I couldn't quite get a match on the other ones but that one over his shoulder really does look like chubby Hitchens. From what I read he had a great affect on the people in his circle. Hitch has affected my life and thoughts and I've never even been close to meeting him. He was just one of those people. It's a shame he's gone. Imaging the book Hitch would have written on Trump or the media in general.
You might want to search for and look at the top results of,
"Are there good reasons to believe in God? I will simply note that both sides have strong arguments"
Who authored that quote?
The evidence for Jesus and his miracles would not stand up in court? Why?
1. anonymous witnesses
2. hearsay
3. It went through generations of oral transmission.
4. single source containing many known errors.
Revision notes for CCEA GCSE Religious Studies - Jesus the miracle worker in the ... We learn a lot about Jesus as a person through the miracles he worked.
What about Eucharist miracles??
Neither the premise, the figure or the acts of Yeshua are believable.
Is this at all a question ?
I'm not being a troll here but at a fundamental level it's unbelievable we still ask this as a serious question. And just to be clear .. No.
i could not walk and was told i never would by doctors after prayer i stood up out of my seat and walked.
A couple of hours north and west of Seattle? It's a miracle you didn't drive into the sound. But thanks for the Easter service. It made me reminise about growing up in the "garden of eden". Eastern Jackson County, Mo.. According to the book of Joseph Smith. Wondering if the Spiegel at Amazon is the same one that used to sell my mom our "Easter" outfits out of a catalog from Chicago. Then sold out when his work force was reaching retirement age? Then sent their jobs to "Communist China"? And then "they" wonder why the hate and suffering. Now I'm off to a "grand-daughters" easter egg hunt?
Why You Really Really Don't Want to Live Forever Brett Gallaher Huffington Post
Too bad he didn’t address the Roman sources
It's not clear if you're equivocating on what extraordinary means. Extra ordinary. In order to believe in things out side ordinary nature i need evidence of the extra ordinary.
I love Michael Shermer, he's obviously very intelligent but also very easy to listen to and so non-confrontational and friendly that I can't imagine anyone being turned off by him, no matter what he says.
Still, I have a few concerns about some of these arguments. First, it seems to me that Hume's argument against miracles requires making a judgement PRIOR to observing any evidence, which seems problematic.
Second, regarding the phrase "extraordinary beliefs require extraordinary evidence": my concern here is that "extraordinary" is such a vague term that anyone could apply it in whatever way they want. If there's something I don't want to believe, I can label it "extraordinary" and then simply dismiss any evidence as not being extraordinary enough. In fact, that's exactly what's happening when people reject evolution.
Well let me introduce myself as I`m more than turned off by this smarmy , arrogant , opinionated prick. The only time I've enjoyed a video with him in it, was with Joe Rogan when he had to deliver a snivelling apology to Graham Hancock after being accused of printing slanderous comments about him. He had no argument as he knew he was in the wrong, he knew Graham Hancock could quite easily sued him and he was made to eat a huge slice of humble pie.
@@ianrobson9601
The problem for many atheists is that they begin often from the position that "there's no God, point!" So no matter what you tell me, it doesn't matter because He just does not exist. This is, ironically, the same argument fundamentalist make on their side, "God exist, no matter what you tell me".
A test tube baby is made....it's a miracle!! I'm looking forward to that debate.
There isn't a debate there. Artificial insemination is just an impressive culmination of scientific advancement. In this case miracle just means impressive or awe inspiring. The biblical or theological miracles are things that are generally physically impossible or they're assumed by assigning special meaning to events that have a small statistical probability of occurring.
Where I live, South Limburg the Netherlands, we have the "Bokkenrijders"' a criminal organisation a few centuries ago that robbed many people and when they where finally caught (after some twenty years) and trials where conducted eye witnesses declared they rode on male goats through the sky from crime to crime. They where all executed after they admitted their crimes (including the goats).
This should ring a bell.
@Anthony Butler I think the goats flew away.
But about confessions. I do think that if the standard of interrogation is wel done and if a lawyer is present to guard it carefully it could be used.
Another funfact.
During the inquisition a woman stated there was no god. After she was shown the torture devices they where going to use she declared she saw her error and now was convinced there was a god.
What is your opinion TRAVIS Walton 🤔 👀 😕 😏 CASE????????????
Miracles by nature are unbelievable.
ho is JESUS? In Chemistry, He turned water into wine. ... Forgetting to read the Bible should be like forgetting to eat: it shouldn't happen often.
Not sure I clearly understand the point MS is making about the Venezuela sighting. He accepts it was seen by around 1,000 people including professionals who were likely to be rational intelligent people. But then states that it couldn't have happened because most people today (who did not witness it) would not believe it did. Very odd and circular logic. If the testimony of such a large number of witnesses is to be dismissed out of hand, without any attempt to investigate the event or suggest alternative explanations, this is lazy reasoning.
All religions and religious books are man-made. Beware of con artists and live and let live.🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂
One of the most exciting things about studying chemistry as a Christian is the ... At the centre of Christianity is the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
A true miracle would be Jesus ending the suffering of living things for all time.
He could
but he won't.
Yes indeed Jesus the co creator of the Universe could do all sorts of miracles but what he thought we needed was show off displays of walking on water....the questionable turning water into wine,,,like we need more booze,,,not exactly the miracles most needed!
"... rather than disproving God’s existence, the reality of evil actually points to it, in an indirect way. If evil exists, then it follows that morality exists. If morality exists, then it follows that God exists"
www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/the-problem-of-evil
People drown and they are dead and rescued half hour later and are resuscitated. People are in comas and flat line and then start breathing again.
Sounds more like medical attention rather than miracles 👍
Ask me anything (and get a cynical answer).
I'm always amazed by how many Christians bring up the 500 as witnesses of the resurrection. They don't seem to realise that the thing requiring an explanation is not how 500 people could see the resurrection, but merely how 1 person could write that down. Which is the greater miracle, 500 people witnessing a resurrection? or 1 person writing (incorrectly - perhaps mistakenly) that 500 people witnessed a resurrection?
And the same holds true for all miracle claims in the Bible. Which is the greater miracle - that all these amazing miracles occurred, or that people merely wrote that they occurred? Written accounts based on oral traditions are never going to be sufficient to warrant belief in any miracle, let alone a resurrection. They all understand this when referring to miracle claims from other religions. Why don't they point the same skepticism at their own beliefs?
true that. But it shouldn't be "500 witnesses", .... it should've been "500,000 witnesses" ....if jesus was really trying.
You do realize that the Bible writers were “Inspired” to write what they wrote because the were lead by the Holy Spirit! Which means that they Could Not make a mistake or write what they wanted?
Debating "believers" is swatting low hanging fruit.....
If brain every thing is random processes who can believe some amagnary fairy tale why we can’t believe we have creator we have two chose 25 prophet say there is god hope some fairy teller with no proof which one we have to believe
let us pray for the 138 million killed today
The United States detonated two atomic bombs over the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945, killing 210,000 people-children, women, and men. ... during World War II that developed and built these first atomic bombs. .So, it is NOT the Religion, but the Science.
Religion breeds ignorance.
@Stacy Caruso Religion breeds ignorance or will you defend your invisible sky man, your holy book with over 4,000 contradictions and the holy wars and destruction religion has caused. Of course you will because your a fucking shit eating irrational zealot. The idiot is you for believing in your Soul Santa and the garbage that goes with it.
Stacy Caruso Edison also?
Miracle = magic = illusion, trickery. Simple if you just understand that there is no reason to accept any supernatural intervention.
I'd argue, that the difference between a miracle and an illusion is, that the miracle stays.
Some real effect you cannot explain, while the illusion just looks like an effect, that disappears when you look at it from a different angle.
If there was a stone-statue, that through x-rays showed that it's just a regular solid block of stone that was carved, that ends up "crying blood", that when tested in a lab shows to be actual blood with DNA and everything, this would be a miracle. There is nothing in science that could explain how dead stone could secrete human blood.
The only problem with these types of miracles is that they are only observed by a small amount of people who later claim certain things that we cannot test for. If those things were all true, we'd have problems scientifically. But if they were true, they'd have no issue with us testing for it. Which they have, fearing that their lie might come to light.
@@liquidminds Trickery should not be discounted. Some illusions can last a very long time as well.
@@liquidminds I'll admit up front that this is a cheap shot, but a "real effect you cannot explain" is the definition of an argument from ignorance.
@@davebashford3753 there are tons of things we cannot explain initially. that does not mean they cannot be explained if we look into them.
"Saying, I cannot explain, therefor it must be ... " would be an argument from ignorance.
" I cannot explain it, I need to look into it further" isn't.
@@liquidminds You're the one who defined a miracle as a "real effect you cannot explain." If I misunderstood you, then I apologize, otherwise you're wasting a perfectly decent word on a trivial concept: "something I don't know."
Well Doc, great way to get prayer. Luke 17:1 "Jesus said to his disciples: Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom the come." That's you Doc. I have been walking with Jesus for 38 years and have seen those miracles, that you don't believe in, hundreds of times right in front of me. When they happen and I don't have any power to do them anytime I want, they are quite interesting. from bones being healed to cancer just not being there anymore when they go back to the doctor. Its real, I'm an educated professional, sane and simply enjoying the supernatural and mysterious things of my (and your) Creator. Many scientist are now at least deist due to the mathematical fine tuning of everything to the unbelievable miracle of DNA and activity of the human body. I know you are sincere but don't know why this is your endeavor. You are now on my A list for prayer and you should be ready form some of those unexplained things to happen around you. Get ready Michael!
Michael needs to get ready for a rude awakening!!
@@santegayle9212 Yep
What's your education in? What did you study? Or credentials? Just curious from an outside perspective, for others who might be questioning his/her religion. Your comment might help them make a decision......
Why are you so hell bent on being right about your beliefs?
Why are you???
Death premonition dreams: You don't have any actual data on dreams of relative's deaths, whether accurate or not. Therefore, you can say nothing about the accuracy of such dreams. Your back-of-the-envelop calculations about death dreams are meaningless and unscientific Perhaps you have a hypothesis, but you haven't tested it. All you can offer are speculations about possible explanations, but in the end, without the work, you just don't know. You shouldn't be so confident that your speculations are accurate. I don't know what your Ph.D. is in, but such reasoning wouldn't pass muster in the hard sciences.
I sometimes deeply wonder what Christianity and the world would be like today if Jesus would have done his few years of ministry just like the gospels write, but instead of dying and resurrecting, he just ascended up into the sky saying "I'll be right back. I'm going to make a place for us. Keep a look out for me." Would Christians place more (or all) the emphasis on how much we can trust the miracle accounts in the gospels during his ministry? Do they have anywhere near the force of a dying and rising again story? The resurrection places a weird wrench in the process of sorting through things. There would be no "The disciples believed they saw him resurrected and that's why they all went around preaching about it afterwards instead of just going back home and living their lives."
It may have turned out that Christianity didn't have nearly as much influence in the last 2,000 years of history and primarily thought of like Jains or Sikhs; there, but not a cultural force or having much influence on money or power.
Boy are you confused.
@@mikeivey7167 I would like to understand. If I'm not seeing something please be kind enough to let me know.
I think the resurrection would be more “believable” if Jesus after coming back from the dead had gone on teaching and living in his homeland until “ripe old age”. The very fact that a speedy ascension to heaven was necessary to justify the fact he wasn’t around anymore is the best evidence of how suspicious the claims of people seeing him alive after his crucifixion are.
@Ant B
So, your doubts lead me to ask, if the Christ story is all smoke and mirrors, why did the authors allow for the inconsistencies in the New Testament?
Well when you become God, you do it the way you want to!
@@brianrahilly4095Not sure what you mean, but there are NO inconsistencies or contradictions in scripture anywhere! NONE!
OK, how about this. I picked up a hitchhiker for the first time in ten years. Turned out that he used to live in a large city (2 million) a thousand miles away where I also lived for 7 months ages ago. Not only did he live in the same city but also in the same borough, on the same street, in the same apartment building and...... in the same suite (a few years after I was there). Is that miraculous? No, but it does point to something that many people experience and which is difficult to explain. When I hear the randomness argument, that appears to be as much as an ideological explanation as anything Christian fundamentalists come up with, which is, ironically, what most atheists are - fundamentalist.
On another issue, Shermer draws a similarity between the Christ narrative and that of Apollonious, a Greek philosopher from the first century AD. Shermer's picks of Apollonius to weaken claims for Christ's unique nature shows the lapses in reason atheists use in making their arguments against Jesus as God. Please, a little reciprocity if you don't mind.
Shermer will pounce all over the lack of early, independent, primary source information related to the life of Christ, yet here he's celebrating Apollonious for whom we have no contemporaneous evidence. In fact nothing for at least another 200 years and that is contested by interested scholars. Even putting aside the question for Apollonious' existence, please tell us Dr. Shermer, what great social movement issued from his life? Why didn't we become his followers so numerous so as to displace the Roman empire? Just how many Apolloniousians are there in the world today anyhow? Right, zero.
Must try harder Dr. Shermer.
So both stories are myths...exactly his point.
In the ancient world they had no way of being certain someone was dead unless a certain amout of time had passed. You are awfully interested in proving that miracles don't happen. What satisfaction do you get in your attacks on religion? When you are as well known and loved as Jesus then maybe come back and tell us about yourself. Within 100 years you will be forgotten. It's Jesus's message dum dum. He's remembered because of His teachings. If you don't believe in mysticism it's because you have never experienced a mystical experience. If you don't believe in miracles then live for nothing, no life beyond the one you have now, you have no reason to have hope or faith.
Please tell me all of the historical references about jeezus besides the one from your Bible.
There are no miracles! 😂
No suspensions of the natural order.
I'm quoting Hitchens quoting Einstein...
As a Christian, Bible study is a constant, never-ending process of reading, learning, and maturing in Christ
@@poplionandrew5803 So you can interpret the bible to make it say what you want it to say.
The Miracles of Jesus can be Believed; therefore they are believable since eye witnesses saw them. Our sin (any action, attitude or disposition against God or His word) separates a person from God. Jesus Christ makes the Relationship possible and close by way of covenant. I still don't believe Atheists exist.
Hey Mike, still pushing association fallacies(Red Herrings) and overbroad generalizations to the desperate uninformed and "uninformable".
Anything for a buck and a few blackened souls, hey Mike.
hey utopia, still pushing your brutal shy deity? Most atheists are more informed that believers.
@@GuitarDog_atx,
Sorry no!
All evidence we have supports, without question, the idea that a mind is being what exists.
I'll take what Werner Heisenberg, a devote Christian like over 65% of Nobel prize winners in physics, father of quantum mechanics and Nobel Laureate, won for the best proofed scientific theory we have, believed over what Michael Shermer and every other malcontent atheist deny without evidence.
Peace.
@@utopiabuster I didn't say anything about "a mind", I'm referring to your theology. This video is about supporting the supposed miracles in the bible (that didn't convince the Romans or Jews that jesus was divine). And you have no evidence to support your deity.
What part of Heisenberg or any other Nobel prize winners's religion helped them make discoveries? Where in their magic book did they get answers? Quantum Mechanics is a branch of physics, not a religion, so you aren't really making sense. You are using argument of authority fallacy.
The Ancient Greeks and Babylonians advanced math, science, astronomy significantly more than anything you can find in the bible.
@@GuitarDog_atx,
The simple fact that you reject and deny all the existing, relevant and valid justifications for Christianity prove your dogmatic resistance to evidentiary methodologies, rationales and reason.
The Bible is neither a math or science book but a literary narrative relating God's relationship with His creation, which includes Man.
From the earliest history of the scientific endeavor those who have contributed to the knowledge of the natural world have done so based on the secure acknowledgement that universe is causally ordered and causally sustained.
Heisenberg's response to being asked if he believed in a personal God;
"Can you, or anyone else, reach the central order of things, or events, whose existence seems beyond doubt, as directly as you can reach the soul of another human being? I am using the term 'soul' quite deliberately so as not to be misunderstood. If you would put the question like that, the answer is yes."
"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you." Werner Heisenberg
Isaac Newton;
"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being....This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called Lord God "pantokrator," or Universal Ruler...."
The Christianization of the Roman Empire was formally legalized by Constantine on October 28, 312, when the emperor saw evidence for God granting military victory prior to a battle.
All the Apostles were Jews. Today there is growing trend of Messianic Judaism.
Try reading a book.
@@GuitarDog_atx,
Another thing!
Einstein recognized the theological implications of his General Relativity Theory, and including a fudge factor, the cosmological constant, in order to maintain the steady state model.
It was Father George Lemaitre, a simple mathematician, who realized the fault in Einstein's math and used the cosmological constant as proof that the universe was expanding. From that he deduced that the universe must have had a beginning as a confirmation of his Faith.
Consequently, Both Einstein and Lemaitre traveled throughout California for a series of lectures which prompted Einstein to exclaim, "This is the most beautiful and satisfactory explanation of creation to which I have ever listened", after hearing Lemaitre's first oration.
Atheist like Shermer hate God for whatever reason and suck in willing dupes with his lies and mischaracterizations.
If God exists, then miracles happen, like Christ's Resurrection. That's just a no brainer.
And, the simple fact that better men than Shermer recognize the nature of the world as a product of God's Will and have done so much to prove that fact makes Shermer and many others easily dismissed as the charlatans and cranks they are.
Lemaitre exemplifies the fact that religion and science do not conflict and spent his life articulating that fact as living proof.
The entire universe and our existence is testament enough of a living and personal God.
Peace.