The Problem with Coding Bootcamps
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- The problem with coding bootcamps in 2023.
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#mentoring #codecourses #bootcamp #codingbootcamp
I’m glad I never had the opportunity to go through a bootcamp (too expensive) so I ended up teaching myself and now work as a web developer and it didn’t cost me thousands of dollars.
Congrats!
Thousands of dollars is still a bargain if you get employed
I'm thinking about joining a bootcamp but not because I don't feel I can learn it myself but because I feel lost when it comes to getting interviews myself. Any advice you have on that? what did you do that got you at least a few interviews?
@@jhonatanjk1251try to intern someplace local. Build a project you can show that will put you ahead of other entry level applicants.
@@jhonatanjk1251 Create a portfolio of work and send out a whole heap of resume's, there isn't much more to it. I sent out around 60 resume's and applied for jobs I wasn't qualified for.
The position I secured required 4 years of development experience (I had 0 days), attitude and drive to learn goes a long way.
this is hilariously true. my bootcamp teachers came out of the very same bootcamp months ago! Seems like the course has been structured in a way that the teachers are really just reading off a script, without actually understanding what theyre saying. Way too quick aswell. 12 week bootcamp, 4hrs a day, i think this is regular for bootcamps, but its too much of a rapid pace to understand all of the concepts. Would probably be more beneficial to do 12 weeks of 1 language, such as py or js, so you understand the workings and fundamentals of code.. Wouldnt do a bootcamp again! Solid video!
The problem with bootcamps is that I owe $12K to coding temple when I graduated their full stack program in March and still have zero job offers, plus my skills are growing stale.
Yes, my instructors were recently graduated previous students (and I was asked to interview for a TA position when I graduated). I came in with a solid foundation of html css and JavaScript, with a couple intro programming college classes in Python and Go. So the topics were perfectly suited for my level and I pumped out my first web apps using flask, react, bootstrap, PostgreSQL, etc.
Now I’m thinking about making games
Making games is one of the lowest profit endeavors. Keep on the job hunt.
Very true, having someone trying to teach when they have limited real world experience is a bad idea. They are going to have one hell of a time answering anything off the rails...
This is very true, there is a bootcamp course in Australia called coderacademy and this was the situation with them. Plus they charged $20,000 for the size month course and $25,000 on a school loan and most people going into the course didn't learnt much but we're very stressed out.
Don’t force yourself to go over 4 hours but if you are in the zone then get after it
I can agree to that. As long as you have a sense of where you are at ... at the time.
It been a long time learning how to computer program put Studio-Web gave me a better understanding about code. Save Money
Wise words. A product of experience not only in IT, but also in education! I really like your approach to training.
Thanks!
Great advice Stefan, I have been learning python over a period of a couple of months
I attended a three-month boot camp in Germany last year. Luckily I didn't have to pay for it. You are right about a lot of things.
We had 3 teachers, two of whom were previously students themselves, but they were great talents in teaching.
It was definitely too much stuff to learn in the short amount of time. The pace was insane. At the end I was just exhausted.
But at least it paid off and I found a well-paid job as a developer in the financial industry. Looking back, I notice what was particularly lacking thematically in the bootcamp: testing and debugging. Especially debugging is a big part of my work now.
A bootcamp can't prepare you for the real job but for me it was a way to get my foot in the door.
Went to a data boot camp during the data science hype and it was literally just the instructors walking us through documentation for open source.
You could read their syllabus then go through the docs for each thing they teach and have the same info for free
Sounds like you attended a terrible bootcamp
@@ChristopherPhillips Yes but many are just as terrible. This was through trilogy education who partners with universities. They collab with Universities to brand as UC Berkeley 'Extension' or UW 'Extension'
This same type of program is offered across the country
As was mentioned in the video lots of bootcamps have under-skilled instructors. Mine did. Had a friend that did the 'web dev' camp, same result
Of course there might be some 'decent' bootcamps but now that i've been working as a dev professionally for some years i would say it's 100% better to learn on your own through the internet. Learning on the fly online without help is most of the job until you get to more senior positions.
Bootcamps don't work for data science lol. You need a masters degree for that
thanks for make a lot of things clear for us uncle Steph ❤
No worries!
The worst part of it all was having teachers who had no idea how to teach.
They didn't know how to teach and made a lot of people give up.
I was talking to a friend of mine who’s been in the industry for about 6 years, he said basically if you don’t have a CS degree you’re screwed as far as getting a high paying job, but from what I’ve seen and learned online I don’t really know how true that is. What’s your take on the necessity of a CS Degree?
You don't need a degree. You never did really, although it helped, and they are becoming less and less important. I have a video on that based on recent news coming out soon.
This might depend on the place you live probably. I imagine that it's more important in places where university is free or easy to access because most people can get it if they put enough effort so companies don't think about the edge cases where someone might be good at programming but didn't have enough time to go through university. It's just a hypothesis and this might not be true but that's what I think about the situation.
I kind of regret the bootcamp, I went to General Assembly and I feel like it put me in enough debt to the point where I feel forced to self learn everything again to be job ready.
They also push out "devs" in tech stacks that are already saturated or where there simply is no demand. Should have boot camps for e.g. enterprise Java or SAP, but not the latest JavaScript framework which most businesses don't know about and which will nevertheless be outdated in a year and replaced by yet another framework.
Another point: not everyone can focus/comprehend on what professor or teacher is trying to explain to you.
I personally can learn only on my own, I personally have to read and understand the material to get it into my head.
So well explained 👏. You literally exposed the bootcamp industry 😅
I think the worst thing about bootcamps are their marketing, here in my country every bootcamp promises graduates to get a job within some period of time. They all claim about 90% of their graduates have got a job with high salary. So they can have expensive price and still so many people fall into it. But the truth is only 1 bootcamp sends graduates report to CIRR and the only about 60-80% graduates get job with average salary about 70% of what the marketing says. And this bootcamp is considered one of the best bootcamp here. The others just don't want to answer when asked the real number.
And this hasn't consider students who drop out
Bootcamps are a big scam, you just endup owing them money without any job offers.
Nope. Depends on the bootcamp.
I was probably lucky one. Got into bootcamp with experienced teachers (Small company with interesting model, where developers part-time develop their own product and part time teach at the bootcamp).
Got job and now I am happy developer.
I've been on the interview committee for a lot of candidates, and people who have only a bootcamp educations didn't do well. They knew just enough to speak a little lingo, but when it came to the fine details of the language they just didn't know enough.
The other issue I saw was a bootcamp graduate who has only ever made the application they create in the bootcamp.
Thanks for letting people know. Experience is everything.
The marketing is strong with you.
There is another issues with boot camps. Quality companies will not even consider someone who was working at Starbucks ninety days ago. A boot camp grad even with experience will not even make the first cut. It's fly by night startups that typically hire them, and its mostly in California. So the boot camps are taking money from unsuspecting people. They can't compete with someone with a CS, MIS, or Software engineering degree.
Very true, same experience but it worked for me as i needed just an excuse to quit my job and focus on coding, without bootcamp would have been almost impossible.
Great Class to get the basic code skills and other skills in code. Still learning
Currently in Coding dojo part time bootcamp. You sacrifice a lot and I think a lot of people arent realistic about that. Between my job and bootcamp i avg 70 hours a week minimum sitting at my desk. It has been taxing not only on my health but on my relationship as well. I got married just recently and the months leading up to
The wedding were a struggle. But I absolutely love it. But you have to commit
Let me know how it goes been wanting to sign up for their part time too
Are you in the part-time accelerated or dlex
@@mcervantes0808flex
@@kaylove4507 part time accelerated taking all three stacks
@@mcervantes0808 i think its really good. Job market is tough but thankfully my work sent me to the program. I would highly recommend voicing your interest at your current job maybe you can work on real world projects while in the program
the mind definitely needs time to rest and process everything. the only way I could see a bootcamp being worth it is if they really stand behind their word of refunding if you don't find a job in x number of days
Thanks UncleStef!!! I'm currently a self-taught Front-End Developer and was looking at which Bootcamps to take. This video was great timing 😀 Some Bootcamps offer a six-month self-paced learning environment. Would you recommend that instead?
Self-paced is superior for sure. Check out my Mentoring program and compare it: unclestef.com.
Back in the days I used to code 12 to 15 hours and nothing made sens at all and js was be be learn three weeks then frameworks twoo weeks which i was force to learn fullstack in three month
Excellent point about the intensity of the bootcamp model. Your thoughts (and you've talked about this over the years) echo Cal Newport's Deep Work time-limit ideas that quality work and output can be continuously maintained for only 3 to 4 hours before its effectiveness begins dropping. It's not a matter of willpower, it's just a reality. To expect students to put in 8 hours of intensive study and coding for several weeks is unrealistic. I think at best, the student will come away with a rote knowledge of what they've learned, but the real understanding and comprehension is probably lacking.
As a fresher non IT to IT what to choose full stack developer vs data scientist vs data analyst more job opening more package future growth
I agree 👍
You could also get some reputable on-demand coding courses which typically have the same curriculum as a boot camp and for a minuscule fraction of the price.
Yes. I bootcamp should come with experience mentoring.
Anyone recommended the Skillcrush break into tech program????
I have found that have a degree helps a lot when applying for jobs, so a Master's degree conversion course seems a better option, especially in the UK where they are not as expensive as USA and can be done remotely. A coding bootcamp gives you no credible certification, so you might as well just self-teach.
Hey Uncle Stef. What do you think about free learning resources? I heard good things about Free Code Camp.
Free can work. I don't know everything out there. You will have to evaluate for yourself. The good thing about it, is you can try, and if doesn't work out. try something else. Whatever you do, don't give up on yourself!
I tried learning via FreecodeCamp before taking a bootcamp, for me personally I found it very hard. Bootcamp's get you coding actual projects (well mine did), which gave it context and the enjoyment of creating and coding.
Depends *entirely* on the bootcamp, you make far too many generalisations. My bootcamp trainers were professional developers, knew their stuff and pretty much everyone who completed the course got js dev jobs.
I didn't say all, I said many. And it is many ... But, I agree, there are good ones out there for sure.
@@StefanMischook A fair point - I just found rather unconstructive thats all. Your points are vaild of some courses, of course.
The brain might only be able to work at max capacity for 3-4 hours per day if you're doing it in solid blocks. I do the pomodoro technique, 20 25 minute focus sprints per day == 8.333 hours. Frequent breaks make a huge difference.
Hi Uncle Stef. There's only one bootcamp in my city here in Malaysia. . . And they teach Ruby as one of the main language in the bootcamp. They also promise to help in finding remote work for all the students. The fee is RM10,000 (USD 2,200)/ 12 weeks. What do you think?
Ruby is on its way out Ultra. Its used as it was a popular code, and easier to teach/learn. I explicitly chose a javascript/react bootcamp (since that was the code I wished to learn and ultimately get a job in) - and I got a job a couple of months after completing it (now 4 years a dev). Make sure you pick the right one, and with the best reviews. (I have to say your camp sounds very good value, is that cheap in Malaysia?)
@@ChristopherPhillips the fee is quite reasonable. I found a cheaper alternative, an online bootcamp offered by Altcademy. The review is quite good. Haven't decide which one to take yet.
Hi Stef, do you accept students from the philippines?
Yes ... all over the world in fact. You are welcome to join.
If you are going to do a bootcamp, here’s my suggestion. Take intro CS courses in college first because the fundamentals takes time to sink into your brain. That way you have more time to work on projects.
Also take Data Structures and Algorithms as that is the main class you need for coding interview. Form a coding interview study group to get yourself ready.
And no one wants to hire someone from a bootcamp
I don't agree with point one, but I complete agree with other points. Some good software engineer don't make good teachers. When learning the fundamentals the teacher don't have to industry experience, they just have to teach the concept well. And for most part even for personal project you don't need software engineer. it is when you want to develop production quality application that you need a software engineer as a mentor.
As for second point I could not agree more. Yes people learn at their own pace. And you need to fully grasp the skill/concept before moving on to the next level. So I would say in the beginning self taught route maybe the best. (not every one has the discipline to do that ) After you build a couple person projects, to move to the next level, you find a mentor who can guide you to do a production level application.
University + Self-Teaching with RUclips, Online Courses (Coursera, Edx, Udemy, etc) is the best way
*If that works for you. I found a bootcamp worked for me.
@@ChristopherPhillips It is the best way to get a job and get hired quickly. It is very difficult these days to get a job after a bootcamp.
That what I’m doing right now.
I’m in a boot camp right now. Did a lot of research up front and can say that I’m glad I picked the one I did. The instructor is great and not a former recent grad.
Agree though. All things equal. Self paced is a good way to learn
I totally agree - the video is just full of lazy generalisations. I spent time picking my bootcamp, now 4 years a professional dev.
Which bootcamp do you attend
@@adeoyetimothy6119 mine was in the UK
@@adeoyetimothy6119
Coder Foundry.
Here in Romania there are bootcamps, but most of them are kinda scams, big prices, you pay now and start next year
they profit from the fact that the IT sector is the best plaid job and more and more people, that don't have the mindset for the IT sector, want a better paid job
A lot of people ask me what's my opinion on them (i have 8-9 years of fullstack web dev), and i tell them to first find some free guides on youtube and try to do some basics, see if they understand (multiple videos). I also ask them some logic questions, ask them to give me solutions to certain problems, i don't care for the answer to be correct, i want to see if they have the imagination and the mentality for it
Lately i have been hearing what i was afraid of "oh i'm just going to use chatgpt" and i'm like "stick to your current job if you are not able to understand and think the basics"
I mean you can learn how to program for free online but what most need is a degree to prove you know how to code especially if you are not from the USA you need that degree. In order to get a job
Life is too short to spend 4 months learning JS. You simply cannot go that slowly in 2023.
I was interested in a boot camp , then I found about issue number 1 , then that a lot of it was self study I was like uhh ? Y'all are charging for this ?! No thanks .
A better title for this would be: "The Problem with The World". The world is full of scams and misinformation. Nothing is perfect but a good bootcamp gives you a tutor that you can communicate with and structured projects/lessons. Many people can't handle an unstructured environment. And if a 'free shedule' were the way to approach this, then our old age homes would be pumping out expert coders by taking programs of the kind that Uncle Stef tutes his horn about.
Coding Boot camps teach the easiest , least mentally taxing part of SWE. For the money they ask for they should at least teach the equivalent of 60 credits worth of SWE which should take at least a year with no breaks .
Unlucky for them that interest rates are rising and cost of borrowing is getting higher, HR for companies are now being very selective, so boot camp grads now go to the back of the line as they have the low end, least versatile skillset as opposed to a degree holder who even with a minor in SWE has substantial programming training.
So Bootcamps have to either step up and provide a more complete education at least equivalent to a minor or 30 credits worth of training in SWE to make their asking prices worth it or they will go out of business
Coding dojo is a scam.
You are kinda generalising tho, there are good bootcamps and bad bootcamps, it's your responsibility to research and find the right one
he said that in the video. he even has his own bootcamp.
Coding Boot camps teach the easiest , least mentally taxing part of SWE. For the money they ask for they should at least teach the equivalent of 60 credits worth of SWE which should take at least a year with no breaks .
Unlucky for them that interest rates are rising and cost of borrowing is getting higher, HR for companies are now being very selective, so boot camp grads now go to the back of the line as they have the low end, least versatile skillset as opposed to a degree holder who even with a minor in SWE has substantial programming training.
So Bootcamps have to either step up and provide a more complete education at least equivalent to a minor or 30 credits worth of training in SWE to make their asking prices worth it or they will go out of business