You all have no idea how incredible the editing in this one is. We were losing our goddam minds watching this episode. The effort to make our hour-long mental breakdown into a coherent discussion is magic. Anyway, by all means yell at me.
I forgot how much gusto Tennant puts into the "using your intelligence to be stupid" monologue and I think that makes it worse. I finally get the criticisms of Sound of Drums
The Giggle was trying to do too much in too little time - definitely agree that the best bits are just when its the Doctor and Donna in the Toymaker's domain
I just have to say, I love your commentaries. All the insight you offer and the fairness you approach the material with make you far and away one of the best Dr. Who video creators.
Even if we wait RTD out for 4-5 years, is there any hope that particular fresh blood comes in at all? And that it's certainly not someone who is picked up by Russell therefore his vision would continue anyway :/
A Russell clone taking over as showrunner is literally my worst nightmare. I can just picture RTD staying in an advisory capacity for a new showrunner too.
You’re probably right, as it seems like Scott Handcock is being groomed as RTD’s replacement. He’s gone from script editor on the main show, to novelising 73 Yards, to being a producer on the ‘Sea Wars: The Devils Strike Back’ spinoff. He has experience writing and producing for Big Finish, so this feels a bit like Russel’s slowly giving him the tv experience to qualify him as showrunner potential in the eyes of the BBC. While I am glad that we’re getting more expanded media folks involved with the main show, a good chunk of Scott’s work for Big Finish has been on ranges with RTD’s consultation, so I imagine a Scott Handcock run of Doctor Who would follow the RTD template.
I appreciated the deadnaming bit in the star beast. As someone who gets deadnamed all the time (and even in the same way as Rose) it helps me see myself in the show and the character feel like a real person being portrayed on screen
@JammoYT that's sick, and I know the actress spoke to the strength of it on-set It's the 'don't you think I did a marvelous job juno Dawson on the official dr who podcast' that's a weird employer/employee power balance.
I have to admit, I can’t stand The Giggle. It’s everything I struggle to like about RTD finales, which is why it’s close to Journey’s End as my least favourite episodes of the revival. I don’t know if that’s a hot take though, not sure what the fan consensus is on The Giggle yet 😅. This show hasn’t innovated AT ALL since Resolution, and it’s so depressing that all of Moffat’s work got undone.
Honestly I'd argue Journey's End is one of the more tolerable RTD finales. At least it actually has some consequences and isn't undone. Unlike Last of the Time Lords which is my personal least favourite.
Journeys end was one of the more loved episodes of the general public I feel like. I never liked it. I loved the giggle tho but the the tower scene (the laser, bigeneration, them winning a game of ball against a literal god who can TELEPORT) ruined it a little for me. Still alright imo, maybe even good.
Surely there should have been a mobile phone game that everyone was playing that was affecting people. Then it would have suited the Toymaker better. The arpeggio thing would have suited Maestro better. There a good ideas but RTD has got them jumbled up in the wrong episodes.
Not even joking, my head canon is that Rufus from Bill and Ted is a regeneration of The Meddling Monk making the band Wild Stalyns to destabilize time but Bill & Ted are too stupid to know. Maybe the villain from 2 is the 90's Rassilon regeneration who just wants order vs Rufus/Meddling Monk's more time bohemian ways.
Very interesting commentary, and a reminder of why I feel you're one of the most interesting Whotubers (is that a thing lol). I similarly have mixed feelings on The Giggle, but because of how overstuffed it is and how much they constantly shove in your face things I like and don't like sometimes match yours, and sometimes they're completely different (yeah the whole "I love these things and hate these others but it's only been 30 seconds" thing sticks with me). Like, I actually don't mind the idea of the Giggle, but maybe it's just because it kind of speaks to me on a personal level and I have actually been personally affected in many ways about how online discourse can get ugly. It's just that a theme like that should've been the whole episodes, when this is trying to stuff ideas for several different episodes into one. Overall I do like it, but given that I ultimately don't like Series 14 (oh sorry, "Season 1" :v) very much, I can't help but find that retroactively tarnishes my outlook on it. Like there were things about this (especially RTD's approach to the show now) that I was trepidatious about, but I had the benefit of the doubt. S14 happens, and now I'm pretty cynical about the show. It doesn't help that these specials are in an EXTREMELY awkward position of being both the start to a new era of the show (and S14 literally feeds into this, The Devil's Chord basically acts like a direct Giggle sequel lol), while ending the revival era and arguably the past six decades of it. Like, it feels like it's trying to be both when that just makes it feel awkward.
On the 14 and 13 both regenerating due to being hit by a lazer thing, this is also true of 12 arguably. Hopefully 15 mixes it up... 9 and 10 both absorbed something they shouldn't have And, strictly based on aiding order and not canonical, War and 11 are two Doctors in a row that regenerated due to old age. And yes I know someone's going to chime in with 10's handy regeneration...
It was pretty fanwanky, but I do think that Mel’s line about Sabalom Glitz living until 101 was a nice little sendoff for the character and tribute to Tony Selby. However, it has some weird implications. If we assume that Mel has aged in real time with Bonnie Langford, then she was 58 in Power of the Doctor, 59 in the Giggle. We don’t know how long ago Glitz died from her perspective, but I got the impression that Mel hasn’t been back on Earth for that long. Mel would have been 23 during Dragonfire, so she travelled with Glitz for 30+ years, assuming that they weren’t separated at any point. So, Glitz would have been in his 60s to 70s in Dragonfire. Glitz isn’t human, so he might age differently. That’s not the strange part. Remember Ace’s backstory? (Intended by the writers and confirmed in the VNAs) She lost her virginity to Glitz at 16. It was weird before but oh no…..
I've always hated russel's attempt at social commentary here "everyone thinks they're right all the time".. like ok, what's the problem with being correct russel?
Remember Rise of the Cybermen? Remember Turn Left? Remember Children of Earth? Part of why I give Russell so little slack is because he can be one of the most incendiary, observant storytellers in British media. And its noy like he's lost it, like I said he just did It's a Sin. So he's actively choosing to tell stories about things that don't matter. I don't know why but I'm not going to sit here and pretend to be satisfied with what I'm getting.
@DantheManIamIam valid. Personally for me it's the fact his stories rn feel like a man who was told "you're the guy who's good at saying things" and so he wrote stories that have a message, not because he has something to say, but because he thinks saying something is his job. Which leaves stories feeling shallow and nonsensical
I don't know why Russell didn't ask for more time. Like there's some logistical reason all three specials had to be an hour long, but, I think both the Star Beast and The Giggle would've benefited from an extra 15-30 minutes
Although I enjoyed the specials for the most part the following season on the other hand left a lot to be desired especially the finale. Now some of the problems that plague the new era start in the specials but now Russell's flaws as a writer seem to have ballooned out of proportion. It feels like to old men writing epilogues to their old work only they think it's a new beginning.
The comic being better goes without saying. As an episode though it mixes being a reasonably good adaptation of one of the all time great pieces of expanded media with a central theme that modern media really needed to spotlight in the current era. Plus it’s the only of the three specials that actually makes good use of Donna, to the point that I’d argue it’s the one special that makes a decent argument for bringing Tennant and Tate back. Plus it honestly does probably benefit from the fact that I just take what I can get these days.
God Chris Eccleston is a grumpy man.personally I liked the episode of giggle thou I I agree Russel T DAVIS Writing has got worse as the series has got worse.
You all have no idea how incredible the editing in this one is. We were losing our goddam minds watching this episode. The effort to make our hour-long mental breakdown into a coherent discussion is magic.
Anyway, by all means yell at me.
hour long mental breakdown into something coherent? sounds like the episode itself XD
@@mrscsi6472 I would argue emphatically against the premise that the episode ultimately became something coherent.
This is a very small thing but I think the 15th Doctor should have gotten the tardis and 14 begins to grow a new tardis in Donna’s garden.
I forgot how much gusto Tennant puts into the "using your intelligence to be stupid" monologue and I think that makes it worse.
I finally get the criticisms of Sound of Drums
Ben no! Make like Russell and say you got it right the first time!
I'm sad The Doctor didn't meet Mel as a result to her throwing a bottle with message into space like she said 😐
It sounds so weird to summarize The Daleks' Master Plan as "Mavic Chen". Like if the Doctor referred to the events of Doomsday as "Yvonne Hartman"
The Giggle was trying to do too much in too little time - definitely agree that the best bits are just when its the Doctor and Donna in the Toymaker's domain
Domain Expansion: Celestial Toyroom
One of those jokes that's so funny I'm just mad at it for not coming up with it sooner
The best allegory for watching this show is the ending of heaven sent
They should've done a Zagreus. Weed out the weak.
Zagreus but with TV or games was what I vaguely hoped for.
It would be funny. Just a collective "What the actual fuck did I just watch?"
@@lokiholmes8115 I think the audience would probably compare it to The Doctor's Wife.
4:12 ....If RtD is terminally online, I fear for what I am.
Go enjoy your Jeopardy Physics Quiz
@@SamyulDavis You really enjoyed mentioning Fusion, huh? (Also, Heidegger isn't a physicist, smh)
I just have to say, I love your commentaries. All the insight you offer and the fairness you approach the material with make you far and away one of the best Dr. Who video creators.
Even if we wait RTD out for 4-5 years, is there any hope that particular fresh blood comes in at all? And that it's certainly not someone who is picked up by Russell therefore his vision would continue anyway :/
A Russell clone taking over as showrunner is literally my worst nightmare. I can just picture RTD staying in an advisory capacity for a new showrunner too.
What can we do but hope?
You’re probably right, as it seems like Scott Handcock is being groomed as RTD’s replacement. He’s gone from script editor on the main show, to novelising 73 Yards, to being a producer on the ‘Sea Wars: The Devils Strike Back’ spinoff. He has experience writing and producing for Big Finish, so this feels a bit like Russel’s slowly giving him the tv experience to qualify him as showrunner potential in the eyes of the BBC.
While I am glad that we’re getting more expanded media folks involved with the main show, a good chunk of Scott’s work for Big Finish has been on ranges with RTD’s consultation, so I imagine a Scott Handcock run of Doctor Who would follow the RTD template.
olympic-level hating, I have to respect
I appreciated the deadnaming bit in the star beast. As someone who gets deadnamed all the time (and even in the same way as Rose) it helps me see myself in the show and the character feel like a real person being portrayed on screen
@JammoYT that's sick, and I know the actress spoke to the strength of it on-set
It's the 'don't you think I did a marvelous job juno Dawson on the official dr who podcast' that's a weird employer/employee power balance.
I have to admit, I can’t stand The Giggle. It’s everything I struggle to like about RTD finales, which is why it’s close to Journey’s End as my least favourite episodes of the revival. I don’t know if that’s a hot take though, not sure what the fan consensus is on The Giggle yet 😅. This show hasn’t innovated AT ALL since Resolution, and it’s so depressing that all of Moffat’s work got undone.
I also cannot stand the giggle
Honestly I'd argue Journey's End is one of the more tolerable RTD finales. At least it actually has some consequences and isn't undone. Unlike Last of the Time Lords which is my personal least favourite.
@@koslaulskusthegreat9050 Honestly, all of RTD’s finales are full of problems, give me a Moffat finale any day.
Journeys end was one of the more loved episodes of the general public I feel like. I never liked it. I loved the giggle tho but the the tower scene (the laser, bigeneration, them winning a game of ball against a literal god who can TELEPORT) ruined it a little for me. Still alright imo, maybe even good.
The way Russel was hyping up his epic Mavic Chen reference in DWM - just makes it 10x more embarrasing
Surely there should have been a mobile phone game that everyone was playing that was affecting people. Then it would have suited the Toymaker better. The arpeggio thing would have suited Maestro better. There a good ideas but RTD has got them jumbled up in the wrong episodes.
I feel like I'm the one person that likes this episode lmao
To be fair, we both watched an hour of television and one person had fun. I think it’s pretty clear who the winner in that equation is.
Most people seemed to love this episode from what I've seen. I was not a big fan, too much happening for an hour of television.
Definitely hope to discuss a Ncuti story at some point, I'd like to make a case against Tennant and Catherine returning being the only/best option.
Not even joking, my head canon is that Rufus from Bill and Ted is a regeneration of The Meddling Monk making the band Wild Stalyns to destabilize time but Bill & Ted are too stupid to know. Maybe the villain from 2 is the 90's Rassilon regeneration who just wants order vs Rufus/Meddling Monk's more time bohemian ways.
Minister of Chance Bill and Ted comparison.
Very interesting commentary, and a reminder of why I feel you're one of the most interesting Whotubers (is that a thing lol). I similarly have mixed feelings on The Giggle, but because of how overstuffed it is and how much they constantly shove in your face things I like and don't like sometimes match yours, and sometimes they're completely different (yeah the whole "I love these things and hate these others but it's only been 30 seconds" thing sticks with me). Like, I actually don't mind the idea of the Giggle, but maybe it's just because it kind of speaks to me on a personal level and I have actually been personally affected in many ways about how online discourse can get ugly. It's just that a theme like that should've been the whole episodes, when this is trying to stuff ideas for several different episodes into one.
Overall I do like it, but given that I ultimately don't like Series 14 (oh sorry, "Season 1" :v) very much, I can't help but find that retroactively tarnishes my outlook on it. Like there were things about this (especially RTD's approach to the show now) that I was trepidatious about, but I had the benefit of the doubt. S14 happens, and now I'm pretty cynical about the show. It doesn't help that these specials are in an EXTREMELY awkward position of being both the start to a new era of the show (and S14 literally feeds into this, The Devil's Chord basically acts like a direct Giggle sequel lol), while ending the revival era and arguably the past six decades of it. Like, it feels like it's trying to be both when that just makes it feel awkward.
On the 14 and 13 both regenerating due to being hit by a lazer thing, this is also true of 12 arguably. Hopefully 15 mixes it up...
9 and 10 both absorbed something they shouldn't have
And, strictly based on aiding order and not canonical, War and 11 are two Doctors in a row that regenerated due to old age.
And yes I know someone's going to chime in with 10's handy regeneration...
That's not Camden in the Giggle it's St nicks Market in Bristol, Camden was shot at for the star beast
@@Bailey-dj6hz ah riiiiight
@@SamyulDavis hate to be the um actually guy but gotta rep the ends
It was pretty fanwanky, but I do think that Mel’s line about Sabalom Glitz living until 101 was a nice little sendoff for the character and tribute to Tony Selby. However, it has some weird implications.
If we assume that Mel has aged in real time with Bonnie Langford, then she was 58 in Power of the Doctor, 59 in the Giggle. We don’t know how long ago Glitz died from her perspective, but I got the impression that Mel hasn’t been back on Earth for that long. Mel would have been 23 during Dragonfire, so she travelled with Glitz for 30+ years, assuming that they weren’t separated at any point.
So, Glitz would have been in his 60s to 70s in Dragonfire. Glitz isn’t human, so he might age differently. That’s not the strange part.
Remember Ace’s backstory? (Intended by the writers and confirmed in the VNAs) She lost her virginity to Glitz at 16. It was weird before but oh no…..
When is a Time of the Doctor video coming Sam?
I’ve been bullying him to do it since the Inferno recording. I’ll win him over yet.
@@DantheManIamIam We will not be silenced! (pun intended)
Already came out. You just don't remember it.
I've always hated russel's attempt at social commentary here "everyone thinks they're right all the time".. like ok, what's the problem with being correct russel?
I mean, I assume it's just commentary on something like the Preface Paradox.
Remember Rise of the Cybermen? Remember Turn Left? Remember Children of Earth?
Part of why I give Russell so little slack is because he can be one of the most incendiary, observant storytellers in British media. And its noy like he's lost it, like I said he just did It's a Sin. So he's actively choosing to tell stories about things that don't matter. I don't know why but I'm not going to sit here and pretend to be satisfied with what I'm getting.
@DantheManIamIam valid.
Personally for me it's the fact his stories rn feel like a man who was told "you're the guy who's good at saying things" and so he wrote stories that have a message, not because he has something to say, but because he thinks saying something is his job. Which leaves stories feeling shallow and nonsensical
It's very weird criticism when he so clearly does genuinely believe he is always right both before and in everything he does now
I don't know why Russell didn't ask for more time. Like there's some logistical reason all three specials had to be an hour long, but, I think both the Star Beast and The Giggle would've benefited from an extra 15-30 minutes
Return of the kingggggg babieeeee
Hey will you make any more broke canons?
I feel like I would like Mel if she was a real character
She is, she's called Bonnie Langford. Everyone loves her.
Oh Jesus sam it’s not that bad
Although I enjoyed the specials for the most part the following season on the other hand left a lot to be desired especially the finale. Now some of the problems that plague the new era start in the specials but now Russell's flaws as a writer seem to have ballooned out of proportion. It feels like to old men writing epilogues to their old work only they think it's a new beginning.
The Sutekh finale is up next!
@@SamyulDavis Oh boy!
I'm sure you will make it more entertaining that actually watching it.
@@SamyulDavis You should just do a whotrax of _True History of Faction Paradox_ instead.
@@najawin8348 I'd love that.
hey babe
I wanna buy a dartboard and do our bf video live
Can I ask Danthel how can he like’s star beast it was crap.the comic story it was based on was much better
The comic being better goes without saying.
As an episode though it mixes being a reasonably good adaptation of one of the all time great pieces of expanded media with a central theme that modern media really needed to spotlight in the current era. Plus it’s the only of the three specials that actually makes good use of Donna, to the point that I’d argue it’s the one special that makes a decent argument for bringing Tennant and Tate back.
Plus it honestly does probably benefit from the fact that I just take what I can get these days.
Lol less than a minute into this and I knew this one was going to be jokes.
We need broke cannon
I disagree.
Yay! RTD2 content!
you have to watch doctor who with someone to enjoy it. there needs to be someone there to join in on the pointing and laughing or youll go insane
God Chris Eccleston is a grumpy man.personally I liked the episode of giggle thou I I agree Russel T DAVIS Writing has got worse as the series has got worse.