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I enjoy these Class D amp videos. What I'd like to see from the manufacturers of these is to drop one, (or two), in a larger enclosure similar in size to a more traditional integrated amp. Make the power supply, (or supplies), integral as well. Everything is inside the chassis. No separate bits. And for good measure, put some cool looking VU meters on the front.
Part of the low cost is the size, cheaper to ship. Shove it all in a big box and a couple of things happen. First you lose the mix and match thing and then shipping costs rise. Its good how it is for these reasons.
The sparkos are basically discrete, surface mount components rather than an integrated circuit on a die, so that would give better separation, equaling better sound staging, better s/n ration and better clarity as the components can be selected to give the best performance. It also means they can give a bit more power output
Bob at USAnalog made the best argument about this that I've ever heard: When you pay $200 for a piece of kit, you listen to the MUSIC, instead of to the details about what the kit can- and can't do. My brand new SMSL AO-300 cost less than $300, has full all-in-one functionality (except streaming, which I already had), and sounds fantastic. It would be a stretch to say I'll never seriously think about upgrading it, but it's not a huge stretch, especially at my age.
Very nice if you need a compact footprint system. If you got the space, a vintage receiver is a lot prettier and stronger. I swapped an opamp from 5532 to opa2134 and it worked out nice for cheap. So rolling opamps can be fun.
I loaded a pair of the Sparkos into my ZA3 after they arrived this morning. Definitely not disappointed, they really pack a whole bunch of super nice sound. Thanks for the heads-up and regards.
NE5532 opamps are some of the oldest, most basic opamps still in use. Pretty much any IC opamp - and definitely discretes - will substantially outperform them. As soon as you replace them, it's immediately noticeable and not really even close, IMO....
Thanks, cheap audio man. Your content is awesome. I have a wiim pro into an S.M.S.L SU-1 into a ZA3 amp. It actually sounds better than my YAMAHA receiver not an inexpensive one either. I think I will try the op amp switcharoo.Side note I have 2 ZA3 amps and as far as I have tried you cannot mono block through the SU-1 DAC! I can afford much more expensive gear, but this stuff is just fun. Fun is what is all about boys and girls.
I own several Fosi/Aiyima/SMSL components. I 100% agree with idea that they are changing audio and I even have a business idea built around them. However, I think the figures they put out for their wattage are highly suspect. One example is the Aiyima T9 I put in our son's system. It's supposed to have 100W per side at 4 ohms. Let's call that 60 to 80 into 8 maybe. Sounded good and the Bluetooth is perfect for a teenager. I picked up a 1974 Onkyo TS 220 receiver for $35 in a thrift store. Cleaned it up and hooked it up the same system. It's not close! That Onkyo is rated at 6.5 watts per side and it destroys the Aiyima. In my workshop, I replaced a borderline disposable Pyle class D amp with an AO7 Pro. The latter is supposed to put out 4 times as much wattage but it sounds better, not louder. At all. I'm under the impression that a lot of these Chifi amp figures are speculative at best even if they do sound pretty good.
You are correct in that they don't publish the numbers with any meaningful reference; as in they don't specify thd or do anything consistently. That is why places like audioholics and ASR provide independent 3rd party bench tests.
You’re right about the power ratings, I bought a smsl a300 that’s rated at 165 watts per channel, audio science reviewed it, it put out 107 watts per channel with high distortion Now the Fosi v3 was also tested with the 48v power supply. It put out 161.1 watts with 191.1 watts headroom, low distortion & highly recommended by audio science.
Well, I beg to differ. I used to have an pretty expensive Audiolab amplifier (2x60w at 8 ohm) with my Dali speakers and the sound was ok. Then it broke down and as a temporary solution I got a cheap Aiyima A08. And it was much more powerful and better sounding. Almost couldn't believe it. So I kept it. Now I got two Fosi V3 Mono and the sound went from great to... astounding! Don't know if new op-amps would change anything but Fosi sent me two Muses02 so I will have a go.
@@karlschultz8995 the Fosi are certainly in a class by themselves. My V3 is an excellent amp especially when price is considered. But if you go to the channel that actually tests these amps in real time you'll see a lot of them don't match published specs and on some of them it's less than 50% of published specs. I think the latest they tried was an SMSL that was claiming 200W a side and it was actually putting out something like 35W.
I have listened to about 7 different op-amps, and the small Sparkos - the SS3602 that Randy reviews here, is my favorite in situations where it is the largest DIP8 unit you can fit. My second choice is one that he doesn't review - the Muses02; which is an IC op-amp (like the stock ones) and it costs about $45. In the AkitikA PR-102 preamp that Randy used in this review, you can upgrade *its* op-amps all the way up to the *big* Sparkos - a pair of the SS2590 installed in their DIP8 adapter. It is about 2X bigger in all directions, so it will not fit in the compact Class D amps. The PR-102 uses OPA1632 (if I recall correctly) in 6 locations, and replacing 2 of these - the main input stage and the main output stage - takes it up to world class levels, in my opinion. Two others are used for the tone controls, and the remaining 2 are the two tape inputs.
I should mention that you can get the Sparkos op-amps for %15 off by signing up for their news email - which is only a couple of times a year. So the $80 becomes $68.
@@MrDavidDiz it is a very good op-amp - the best IC op-amp I have tried. It is spacious and smooth and clean - kind of like the Ares II DAC, is how I would characterize it. Have you also heard a Sparkos? In my opinion, it is even more open and clear and airy, as well as better bass and midrange clarity.
Nice project, I did this with my ASUS soundcard. I bought dual opamps from Burson for it, and changed the 5532 from NEC to Burson. Sound changed a lot with music of high quality, not so much from compressed sound from RUclips.
Have you considered modding the case of your ZA3/V3 with a Dremel to accommodate the taller op amps from companies such as Burson, Orange, Staccato, etc...? You wouldn't need to remove the PCB either, as the sockets would be accessible through the holes using an IC extractor tool and a magnifying lamp.
6:47 The V3 ships stock with 5532s. I have Burr Brown OPA627s in it now. Wow. I have 5 SS3602 Sparkos in my Douk Audio T8 Pro. Massive difference in sound. Rolled the tubes too!
Same here, this DOUK preamp is fantastic after changing the tubes. First of all, I changed the power supply for a linear one I had already for previous devices, the difference was a much cleaner sound. I've changed the tubes for E88CC from Genalex (Gold Lion), awesome tubes, I'm also waiting for PSVANE 6SN7 tubes, can't think it will be much better but who knows... Installing the Sparkos was another substantial upgrade, wasn't expecting that much of improvement, but it was as spectacular as the better tubes.
Opamps are like tubes - everyone seems to have a different preference and it's easy to spend more on the replacements than you paid for an (admittedly cheap) amp. iBasso were big on this years ago, albeit with tiny portable headphone amps (many of which cost more than the Fosi speaker amps !)
If you want to hear the difference that Sparkos opamps make (and they make a big difference!) here's a cool test I (inadvertently) did and could hear the upgrade in real time. If you are running the A07 max or ZA3 in mono blocks only swap one of the opamps, connect the amps to your speakers and play music. What I heard is that the speaker with the Sparkos sounded significantly louder (it was so noticeable that for 15 min I thought I had a bad amp until I realized the "quieter" speaker didn't have the Sparkos). There are "speaker test" tracks on Tidal that play left speaker / right speaker test audio and you can hear the difference the Sparkos makes in real time (A/B testing can be hard to do in real time unless you have special equipment). Also I upgraded to Sparkos in my Geshelli DAC and that too made an additional difference in sound; basically, the opamp upgrades STACK on top of each other so you can make material improvements for cheap (at least by hifi standards lol). IMO if you are only upgrading one component at a time I think changing the opamps in the amplifiers made the biggest difference. NOTE: I've seen in the comments (and read elsewhere) that there is a real safety risk if you touch a loaded capacitor (the round battery looking things on your amp board). Luckily I had no issues but if your are doing the test I described above I would definitely let the amp sit for a while before opening it back up after you've been running it just to be on the safe side. Also when running monoblocks you only change one opamp per amp (not both...so 2 total, not 4).
I'm so sick of hearing people hate on CAM, but seriously, as someone who clearly has a lot of products he recommends, what has your experience been like? I'm personally looking at upgrading my HT setup and the main upgrade I'm thinking about is front channel amplification. Since you mention you've run monoblocks, have you ever used an HT receiver? I was wondering how these compare to the built-in amplification of my Yamaha 90w receiver from 2010 rx-a400. It has RCA preouts so just thought I'd ask if you have any experience with this type of thing.
@@2kdesignstudios72 I know nothing about HT. But these amps are great if you just need clean power. You really don't even need to mono block...one alone is more than enough power for 90% of speakers. I've had a great experience with these amps (A07 max) and the Geshelli DAC was a signifiant improvement over the internal DAC of the Wiim Pro streamer. As for speakers, everyone gets so caught up in these reviews but you need to listen to speakers before you buy them b/c sound preference is SO much more subjective than objective IMO. Also CAM rocks...I love the channel...how can you not?! That being said expensive speakers also rock...all these truths can co-exists!
I bought the Aiyima a07 and it sounded pretty crappy on it's own. I added a Dac and it made a huge difference. I paired it with the Elac Bs41 for an office system and it sounds pretty good. All, in it only cost around $200 which is cheaper than some crappy big box store mini system.
Thanks, Randy! Love this video! It's a little out of my technical comfort zone, but I think my my Fosi V3 is coming apart! Sparkos all the way for me! Love them in my Geshelli headphone amp!
Hey Bob, be sure to use a discount code when you make your next purchase. You should have received one for returning customers. If not, Save15 works for 15% off. Significant savings. I absolutely love the Sparkos opamps. I have 5 in my Douk T8 Pro! 😎 Love your channel sir!
@@ericboehm4529 thanks for the tip! Douk just sent me their new H7 Pro for review, but I can find much info on it yet, I wonder if the amps in that can be swapped?
I tried the muse02 and sparkos op amps in the a07max. Sparkos is a little too clean for my liking, but the muse02 are amazing. Can't wait to try them in the za3.
one additional question: is there still a noticeable difference between the TI and the Sparkos if you run them in dual mono mode? i guess you would need 4 fosi audio amps to compare it with your setup. which you probably do not have. why i am asking for that? one important part of an opamp stage is power supply noise rejection rate. that is very important when both channels share the same power supply. and that is less important in mono mode because you don't have signals from the right channel polluting the power supply on the left channel. if the sparkos has a better power supply signal rejection rate that would explain a better performance than the texas. that might not be needed in dual mono mode. and maybe adding a good 1µF very low ESR cap to the texas chip power input can do the trick as well without breaking the bank.
I had a fosi class D amp (with the bass&treble knobs) and it was original. And I listened to it one night and I was really thrilled with it and I loved it. The next morning it still sounded just as amazing, no sibilance like with a lot of class D amps. Then I AB tested it with my Audiolab class AB amp. First thing I noticed was the fuller and more VIBRANT treble sound (more body) and the soundstage just opened out like an explosion, and it seemed to sound a million times better! Way more engaging, like chalk&cheese. Yet I loved the fosi when I heard it before and didn't think it would be much different. Boy, was I wrong! That's the difference when you use the very same song for a comparison, I suppose AU $100 and AU $1800 can make a difference. 😅
makes sense yet it’s speakers that have sibilants; how does an amp act sibilant. too bad this channel would never reveal something so great for consumers to know.
For home listening I would never use class D amps! I only prefer to use them for subwoofer duty when I run live sound for bands. Class AB sounds far better for critical, detailed, listening.
I did the Sparkos opamps hack with my Aiyima A07, it dramatically improved things. Now I'm not satisfied with my cheap DAC, DX3 Pro+! I just ordered a better one! Matrix Mini-i Pro (using the ES9016 Ultra chip). I just feel like the DX3 pro is not clear, I hear DACs with low grade power supply solutions can underperform.
I loved the sound from the sparcos too but here in europe they are super expensive at nearly €90 per piece. Then i found the OPA2604, which to my ear sounded very similar to the sparcos at a fraction of the cost (€10). Did anyone else have the same experience?
@@D1N02 i appreciate your insight and i agree with you, the Sparcos are the superior opamp but i just can't justify the €90 premium per chip, so i have to take the next best thing. As for the sound, i like a little warmth to my music, especially blues and jazz, for metal or rock a lill less so. For me its difficult to choose since i like a broad range of music.
I have a few Fosi products and they are great but Im gonna have a go with one of the ones I dont use as much. Thanks for the heads-up, Randy. You da man !
So if im running the A07 max in mono and I want to upgrade the op amps like a sparkos ss3602 would i only need to purchase 2 chips? One for each of the left signals since mono is only using one channel in each amp?
Whatever brings better quality sound into the lives of many is a great thing. They don't take up much space making them acceptable in many more domestic situations. Digital or switchmode amps have come a long way in recent years. I run bigger more conventional amps but I see these little things as the future . Just as we have seen the headphone explosion....for travel and domestic situations. Playing with these things is a learning experience too. Well done Randy.
I Am Not An Electrical Engineer. Just playing Devil's Advocate here. First off, yes, you can change the sound or tone of a piece of gear by substituting opamps, no doubt. How much of that is due to any superiority of the new opamps are open to debate. I would assume (therefore surely making a certain quadruped of myself) that the original circuitry was carefully designed for the original opamps. Dropping in a different even if quite similar component can affect the electrical characteristics of the original circuitry involved in supplying the opamp with voltage, audio signals and the amplifier stages post opamp. This could easily affect the audio signal in any number of ways, both subtle or grossly. How much of that either way may depend on it simply being a different "load" for the existing circuit versus the wonderfulness of the new part, may well be up for debate.
To understand how rolling opamps is affecting the sound three concepts need to be looked into: open loop gain, negative feedback, and distortion. Open-loop gain refers to the gain of an amplifier or a feedback system when no feedback is applied. It represents the amplification factor of the system without any corrective measures. For example, open loop gain of the LM4562 at 1kHz is 95dB. The decibel (dB) scale is commonly used to express gains or losses in a logarithmic manner. In this case, a gain of 95 dB corresponds to a voltage gain of 56,234 V/V. Open loop gain varies depending on the frequency. For the same LM4562 open loop gain is reduced to 75dB (5,623 V/V) at 10kHz and to 70dB (3,162 V/V) at 20kHz. Hovewer it is 125dB (1,778,279 V/V) at 20Hz. While open-loop gain itself doesn't directly reduce distortion, it sets the stage for the application of feedback, which is a key technique used to mitigate distortion in audio amplifiers. Negative feedback is commonly used in audio amplifiers. This involves feeding back a portion of the output signal to the inverting input of the amplifier. The feedback signal is then compared to the original input, and any discrepancies are used to adjust the output. The effectiveness of a given circuit in adjusting the output signal is directly proportional to the open-loop gain present in that circuit at a specific frequency. Typically, the open-loop gain curve is defined by internal compensation mechanisms inside the amplifier. In most cases, such a curve decreases at a rate of 20 dB per octave. Note that spakos opamps use two pole compensation compared to ther opamps that use traditional Miller capacitor compensation. Two pole compensation allows for very high open loop gain which translates into better sound. When the open-loop gain is low, negative feedback becomes less effective in stabilizing and linearizing the amplifier's response. Negative feedback relies on a high open-loop gain to reduce distortion and improve linearity. If the open-loop gain is low, the feedback may not be sufficient to counteract the inherent nonlinearities and variations in the amplifier's characteristics, leading to reduced effectiveness in correcting errors and maintaining stability. In such cases, the amplifier may exhibit higher distortion and poorer performance compared to a system with a higher open-loop gain where negative feedback can have a more pronounced corrective effect.
I think you may be giving some of these companies a little bit too much credit. Highly doubt that they "engineered" their product around a .50 op amp. Your mileage may vary though. I'm not telling anyone to go out and change everything out I'm just saying what I heard and what I liked. I like sparkos op amps compared to the others. if you have the time and budget I'd say do something similar yourself and choose what you like. if there's no difference then you'll know I'm full of crap.
Holy Hades I have the exact same Realistic receiver!!! Used it with a couple of Dayton Audio B652 AIR speakers and AirPort Express in the garage for really good sound. It now resides in my oldest grand-daughter's room.
It is probably a better upgrade to use the ZA3 in mono mode. Instead of three sparkos opams you get two and an extra ZA3. The 1656 didn't do it for me. I found it's presentation boring when using it in the Aune X8 or in my tube buffer preamps. I'm not sure if replacing the xlr opamp is needed. I think it's there for the common-mode signal rejection. Another potential upgrade is de GaNfet 48v power supply. If you order the ZA3 without the power supply it is very affordable.
Could you please advise what op amp did you change (or suggest to change) if you have 2 ZA3's and 2 sparkos op amps? The right chanel ones? Or the XLR input one?
@@jonathannieto8377 Fosi advises just the right channel. You're free to experiment of course. When using them in Mono a preamp also becomes more important.
Snake oil is snake oil. I guess you love snake oil so you do you 👌 i got fooled i to buying one of these chinese amps. in the end they sound how much they cost. You get what you pay for 🤷 Ya'll haven't heard real hifi before, haven't ya?
@@sepg5084 Hmm. It actually was the love of good sounding equipment at all price lines that I heard on this channel that inspired me to buy my first tube amp…which cost more than all the equipment I had purchased to that date. The mantra here is, great sound doesn’t have to cost an arm and a leg…and I believe it. I have a half dozen systems in my house and have cobbled together great starter systems for my kids based on recommendations, and more importantly, the understanding of how components compliment (or do not) each other. I think the first CAM recommendation I acted on were the ELAC B6s and Sony SSCs and I learned the difference between analytical precision and a warm and wonderful speaker. I use the Elacs in a small system in a bedroom and they are awesome. I have the SSCs in use at two children’s places, matched with hand me down receivers and they rock. Last spring, I bought the FOSI Audio tiny amp and paired it with a set of giant Monoprice outdoor speakers for the back yard and it is awesome. I also have purchased Ayima pre-amp/DAC and use it with my tube amp to handle conversion chores…and the small JBLs recommended…and of all these guided purchases, only the JBLs have been a bit of disappointment. Maybe I just need to find the right setting and amp pairing. That’s the fun of this, that’s the spirit of this channel. And although I have all the stereo equipment I need now, by buying and pairing inexpensive equipment such as discussed here, I have opened the world to all my family and several friends. Well worth the price of admission. But hey, if Cheap ain’t in your blood, plenty of other channels on the Tube.
@sepg5084 you do have a point but beside a discussion about snake oil and "real Hifi" you also need to accept the fact that we are at cheapaudioman and not the audiophiliac or someone else. It's more about what you expect and find yourself in the presented opinion. Videos as this one are not meant to disconnect the grey mass and are surely to build an own opinion. I think it's more to agree to disagree without being rude ;)
Thanks for another great video! I've got a ZA3 in stereo mode going into a pair of ELAC Uni-Fi 2.0 UB52s (in no small part thanks to the great reviews I got from your channel). Great sound but always happy to get better! Wondering if you think there would be more benefit from getting a second ZA3 to run each speaker from a mono amp or upgrading the singe ZA3 with a pair of the Sparkos Op Amps. Open to doing both but now sure how much improvement I get from the mono amp arrangement on these speakers. Thanks again!
Waiting for someone to do the full blown treatment to one of these bad boyz. New enclosure, shielded linear PSU that exceeds requirements & amp board altogether, + the opamp upgrades. Id imagine youd have yourself a cool ass sleeper amp that punches up all damn day!
As an electronic engineer I can say well designed linear is really NOT inferior in any way but in efficiency. Also ANY power supply that is low noise enough and has a low impedance output and good regulation will work and SHOULD not change the sound. If it does then the amp is definitely sub-par.
These too?....................... . There may be more hifi printed circuit boards out there that include opamp rolling sockets than people realize. Opamps are in preamps and EQ's too. And, surprisingly, not all manufacturers include this info in their literature. Emotiva's 2nd model DAC, if I can remember correctly, is one of these models. If one becomes practiced looking at the PCBs, then one might recognize an excellent up-gradable hifi "sleeper" component on the barely used market (it may have been the SMSL SU-8 instead or both that are said capable). Wish you good hunting. Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
Most audiophiles would rather “roll” components. Or cables. Or cartridges. Op-amps seems like major surgery (even if it’s not). I think if I had 1 Fosi, no big deal. So your upgrade path would be another fosi, or op-amps. With 2 Fosis… you could bump to a more traditional company (rotel or emotiva) or op amps. I think more users would opt in if offered by factory. Like Zu speakers sort of do. YMMV (a lot).
Many of us can’t roll out a whole component. The cost of entry to the next level bars it. But with a smallish investment, we can take the components we have and make them much better.
I did a lot of op amp rolling many years ago. Tried just about everything available at the time and remember settling on discrete Dexas on the front end and LME49710 on the output of an $800 DAC. Couldn't use discretes throughout due to high current draw. Anyhow...I just picked up the ZA3 last week and decided to try out a few different op amps. Unfortunately I got rid of my DAC and extensive op amp collection a while back so had to reorder. Ordered some 2134 and 1656. Funny thing is that for every positive comment I read on either of these somebody else has something negative to say. I'm starting to ask myself if I'll even bother to open up the ZA3 or maybe just leave the stock OAs in. After all this is a $129 amp and as good as it is the more I live with it the ore I realize its shortcomings. Peace
@@aeon7748 the two OPAs that I mentioned are still in their packaging as, from what I've read, would be a subtle lateral change in sound at best. I'm still debating whether I'll order discretes or not. I would need to have two ZA3s and a good switchbox to be able to properly A/B different opamps.
@@mikecees2230 I did hear differences with online A/B test from "NX-Otica - Fosi ZA3 NE5532 / SparkOS SS3602" video, I cut clips from each op amp video segment, synced them down to 0.001 seconds using wave peak as guide in Audacity, exported to .wav files, then compared using ABX plugin in Foobar2000, there IS a significant difference, and it's not just RMS level, they were level matched in the video down to ~ 0.42 db, the shape of the peaks is different and so is the subjective resulting sound, but I confirmed it with passing 15/16 attempts, However, even though there is a change, I'm debating to change the op amps last, because allegedly they do not work well with the new Fosi V3 mono's where the Musus02 matches better, so it'll just be wasted if I ever decide to go with the new V3's, I'll maybe attempt to change DAC and/or add another Za3 before changing op amps. If I do though, perhaps I'll update this thread.
I have a question. Would you go Fosi D class + opamps or for example Cambridge A/B class since D class starts cheap but at the end of the day eventually they will cost the same. I have 60$ D class with 300$ worth of opamps in it 😁 In sense if you are beginner or just want good sound, then maybe it's actually better idea to go straight to 200-400 range except if you are really tight with budget, then Fosi with factory OP's are good enough, better than most A/B classes from 1980 to 2000+.
I just think everyone should be entitled to their opinion. Especially when they leave an alternative source to use instead of tubes. Me personally, I just prefer Rec, AV Rec or Amp this is just my opinion. I don't think anyone should be ridiculed for what they like and their opinion doesn't always have to agree with yours! That's just life you have to learn to agree to disagree.
Sorry...newbie here. Have watched a few of your videos Randy... very informative and entertaining! Just a bit confused on the opamp front. Watched geshelli dacs j2 video and there was mention of upgrading to Sparkos opamps. Are the fosi opamps different considering the ZA3b is an amp vs DAC. Hope in making sense here... thx
I have a stock ZA3, paired with a Geshelli labs J2s with the TI OPA1656 op amps in it right now. Should I upgrade the DAC or Amp op amps first. I'm picking up two Spakos SS3602 shortly, but if anybody has any ideas/experience I would love hear it.
The MP-110 has a 1-2 dB upper midrange dip, quite apparent from direct LP-CD comparisions. Also using 200 pF shunt caps to tame its high treble, boosting the 2K band on my Loki produced a tone much like the CD.
@@1mctous well thats nice. I have designed and built some speakers and the tweeters on my current setup go slightly up after 14K. That though is somewhat irrelevant and my ortofons rolloff makes that nonexistent.
I graduated in 84, the second thing I bought after I bought a 74 AMC Hornet x was a pair of realistic Mac 1 speakers and realistic receiver. They sounded awesome together. Not to my parents delight 😁😁😁Those were the days.
Very awesome and informative video! Plus, your shirt is LEGENDARY! The Goonies is in my top 5 all-time favorite movies, but I am an 80's nerd or better yet, a GOONIE!
THE BEST HACK: upgrade the FUSES! I upgraded my Cambridge Azur 851N and my Focal solo 6 s with synergistic master fuses……. OMG…. The audio quality improvements are unbelievable.
Hi Randy, great info. These sort of hacks make me remember when we swapped and compared Mullard ECC82s in our valve preamps to various other versions, Osram, Sovtek etc. One question if you use the ZA3 in mono mode, am I correct in assuming that only two opamps would be needed? one for the audio channel that is being used, and one for the XLR input?
With all my respect for those who think differently, but all these individual impressions sounds crazy for me... I never saw an audiophile (self declared, since there is no formal and technical way to define and certify one) that would accept to do a really blind test... yes, a blind listening session test, just listening and not knowing the changes made.... just judging between sample #1, #2... and so on, and at the end, to be able to classify the same way they would describe the differences (in this case op amps) if they were doing it by themselves knowing the brand of things.
How many would I need to replace the op amps on my two Aiyima A07 Max amps that I run in mono? Each amp only uses the left channel in mono so does that reduce the need to change certain op amps? I'd only consider spending $80 per op amp if I only had to change a couple of them.
@@ericboehm4529 Thanks. So is that one per mono block amp? In other words this is an $80 x 2 project rather than $80 x 4+? Each amp only cost $80. I'm using a WiiM Pro Plus to feed the Kef KC62 sub that thr feeds the two Aiyima A07 Max and then finally on to the Kef LS50 Meta. I'm trying to work out if this is really going to improve things or if it's just snake oil.
This is all just snake oil though right? Otherwise we'd have every amp manufacturer waxing lyrical about their op amps. I can believe I almost fell for it and I definitely feel a bit cheated by Randy
wrong. most consumers out there are using powered speakers like Sonos. That's what has really changed the hi fi industry, who are selling less amplfiers and passive speakers these days. If you are talking specifically about the hi fi community, which is a very small percentage of all consumer electronic customers, they are still inherently spending money on big expensive amps. What you are talking about is the cheap hobbyist community, not the hifi/audiophile commnunity
Hi I know I’m a little late here so I’ll be brief. Regarding the Fosi x2 Phono pre amp, can you swap those op amps with the ones you show in the video? It’s difficult to find which op amps to get for the x2 and how to swap them. I’ve already upgraded the tubes. Thanks!
Good info. After watching I’ve been thinking about going down the opamp upgrade path for my Fosi ZA3’s. What occurs to me is that there are opamps in every link in the audio chain. Question is, aren’t we affecting the sound character each time we pass it through another opamp? If I feed the digital output of my cd player into my DAC, the analog output of the DAC runs the signal through opamps yes? Then if the DAC analog output goes to a preamp, it goes through opamps in the preamp, then the preamp output goes into a power amp which also runs it through opamps. Boggles my mind a little. It would seem that we would want all the opamps in the chain to be as neutral as possible, then maybe just choose opamps with character (like warmth) in the last device. I guess that’s basically what you’re recommending here.
OK question for the Cheap Audio Man or anyone that knows. If I choose the Sparkos OP-Amp in my Gesheiil DAC then run RCA to my Marantz SRR7015 then out to my Emotiva BasX A3 how many op-amp does the signal run through from DAC to speakers. Do they all need replaced.
Tuve un amplificador classe CA101, hermoso amplificador muy musica, pero se descompuso un lado, y para arreglarlo es muy dificil por tener piezas de grado militar y de prescion, y hechas a la medida...po ello opte por estos amplificadores pequeños que son faciles de arreglar y actualizar, ademas de ser menos estorbo. creo que es una opcion nueva para quien ya no queremos comprar algo muy costoso, que tal vez no nos guste como suene y que sea muy dificil de arreglar.
What most people don't realize is the real problem of counterfeit parts from most all China products. The 5532 op amp is a old low cost IC and most China products have fake 5532! Yes a $1.00 part is ,most the time ,a fake part! I believe the reason Fosi has done well is they makes sure to order parts from suppliers that sell real parts. A real 5532 is a good sounding part. For under $10 their is a long list of better op amps. Which will sound better is for the end user to find out. Just for reference the Muse IC is not really a great sounding chip most the time, its dark and closed in. Most the chips sold are fake too.
Hold on, ppl have been opamp rolling for decades. Starting with the old Head-fi group back in the early 1990s (Kevin Gilmore, Tanget, BoyElroy) onwards, actually. I changed the opamps on my old Audio Alchemy and DIY Gilmore amps from OPA627s to AD797/AD825, etc.
To understand how rolling opamps is affecting the sound three concepts need to be looked into: open loop gain, negative feedback, and distortion. Open-loop gain refers to the gain of an amplifier or a feedback system when no feedback is applied. It represents the amplification factor of the system without any corrective measures. For example, open loop gain of the LM4562 at 1kHz is 95dB. The decibel (dB) scale is commonly used to express gains or losses in a logarithmic manner. In this case, a gain of 95 dB corresponds to a voltage gain of 56,234 V/V. Open loop gain varies depending on the frequency. For the same LM4562 open loop gain is reduced to 75dB (5,623 V/V) at 10kHz and to 70dB (3,162 V/V) at 20kHz. Hovewer it is 125dB (1,778,279 V/V) at 20Hz. While open-loop gain itself doesn't directly reduce distortion, it sets the stage for the application of feedback, which is a key technique used to mitigate distortion in audio amplifiers. Negative feedback is commonly used in audio amplifiers. This involves feeding back a portion of the output signal to the inverting input of the amplifier. The feedback signal is then compared to the original input, and any discrepancies are used to adjust the output. The effectiveness of a given circuit in adjusting the output signal is directly proportional to the open-loop gain present in that circuit at a specific frequency. Typically, the open-loop gain curve is defined by internal compensation mechanisms inside the amplifier. In most cases, such a curve decreases at a rate of 20 dB per octave. Note that spakos opamps use Two Pole compensation compared to other opamps that use traditional Miller capacitor compensation. Two Pole compensation allows for very high open loop gain which translates into better sound. When the open-loop gain is low, negative feedback becomes less effective in stabilizing and linearizing the amplifier's response. Negative feedback relies on a high open-loop gain to reduce distortion and improve linearity. If the open-loop gain is low, the feedback may not be sufficient to counteract the inherent nonlinearities and variations in the amplifier's characteristics, leading to reduced effectiveness in correcting errors and maintaining stability. In such cases, the amplifier may exhibit higher distortion and poorer performance compared to a system with a higher open-loop gain where negative feedback can have a more pronounced corrective effect.
@cheapaudioman I’m looking for something with the same functionality as the Akitika that can run 2 sources simultaneously to A/B amplifier setups. Are you aware of any comps on the market to the Akitika with that specific feature?
Still waiting on my ZA3 to get here, it just landed in the US yesterday. I think ill start with the Burson V5i op amps to save some money, then try the Sparkos SS3602 ones some time later.
These inexpensive chip amplifiers are not worth op-amp swaps. +1 on the leave it as is There will be some very interesting developments this year with these brands Will be very cool to see legit amps shake up the market The Miata’s need an LS1 swap…now that will make a difference
So with a pre-amp/dac with volume, and two Za3 with sparkos, are you getting better sound than a traditional Emotiva, Yamaha, Rotel amp? Because you’re getting very close to the same price. I love the idea of infinite power monoblocks and they sure are fun tweak but I can’t help but feel like maybe i’m missing the big picture.
Question for you. The XLR socket only has one opamp. I have 2 Sparkos SS3602's and 2 MUSES02's. The XLR inputs sound much better than the RCA's on my ZA3. Thinking I should put one of the Sparkos in the XLR section and take the 2 MUSES02's out of my V3. Hoping it will be like having 2 different sounding channels and reduce the cost of buying another ZA3 to run as monoblocks.
for Klipsch 8000f currently have all 3 which would u recommend Crown 1502 , Fosi BD20pro, Fosi ZA3. crown or uograde fosi w op amp. i like both on my 8000f but more headroom w crown but fosi pushes good and aq little more sizzle
Just enjoy the ZA3 as it comes. We are so impressed with this amazing amp straight out of the box so why not just enjoy it. If one needs to change the characteristics of the sound then just purchase a sound processor.
Different strokes for different folks. Kind of like how some people like ketchup on a hot dog while others prefer mustard etc. but this is more fun I would assume? I have not done it.
I've replaced opamps in a lot of my studio gear made in the early 80s to newer opamps to good effect... then I saw the cost of the SS3602.. 80$ a pop for 1. yeah no. lol.
it gets expensive swapping different op amps. Too bad you cant "hear" before you swap. I would like a warmer sounding op amp in my Hypex 502. I think my Pascal amp sounds bit better compared to hypex but it would be interesting to try different op amps. OR I guess I could build a Purifi and compare all 3.
A new (r)evolution is on the way. Fosi already stated it's developing pffb for a next generation of these amps. That will be a big step up in performance!
Thanks Randy for your informative vid as usual Love them How would you rate the Za3 to the Smsl a300 with the za3 standard and then sparkos op amped Cheers brother
Only cheap amps rate their products while they are clipping at 5% THD. Unfortunately, they are just copying the chipset advertised data. Analog Devices, TI, Infineon specs. These are just not that powerful. The good thing is you really do not need that much power.
I didn’t buy a Fosi amp for the advertised power, but at a fraction of that they sound just fine. Plenty of rooms with plenty of speakers will be plenty loud at 20 watts.
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we disagreed once about the sony bookshelves but i think you're videos are really good. you give great advice and have good humor.
Giving all your data to some Panama company is risk free?
I enjoy these Class D amp videos. What I'd like to see from the manufacturers of these is to drop one, (or two), in a larger enclosure similar in size to a more traditional integrated amp. Make the power supply, (or supplies), integral as well. Everything is inside the chassis. No separate bits.
And for good measure, put some cool looking VU meters on the front.
Part of the low cost is the size, cheaper to ship. Shove it all in a big box and a couple of things happen. First you lose the mix and match thing and then shipping costs rise. Its good how it is for these reasons.
Some great upgrade options. I appreciate the amount of time all the switching in and out must of took. Not to mention the listening. Thanks Randy.
The sparkos are basically discrete, surface mount components rather than an integrated circuit on a die, so that would give better separation, equaling better sound staging, better s/n ration and better clarity as the components can be selected to give the best performance. It also means they can give a bit more power output
Really all of those are facts, but still it’s much more important to have a good design as that can make or ruin a good amp.
I actually switched out the op amp in a crappy but usable FX Audio Dx1 DAC, and it made me laugh out loud how much it improved. It was a total lark.
I put Sparkos in my $50 fosi p1 tube AND rolled the tubes. Sounds great!
Been curious about this very thing.
Lark is a fun word
Isn't LARK a cigarette?
Bob at USAnalog made the best argument about this that I've ever heard: When you pay $200 for a piece of kit, you listen to the MUSIC, instead of to the details about what the kit can- and can't do. My brand new SMSL AO-300 cost less than $300, has full all-in-one functionality (except streaming, which I already had), and sounds fantastic. It would be a stretch to say I'll never seriously think about upgrading it, but it's not a huge stretch, especially at my age.
Very nice if you need a compact footprint system. If you got the space, a vintage receiver is a lot prettier and stronger. I swapped an opamp from 5532 to opa2134 and it worked out nice for cheap. So rolling opamps can be fun.
I loaded a pair of the Sparkos into my ZA3 after they arrived this morning. Definitely not disappointed, they really pack a whole bunch of super nice sound.
Thanks for the heads-up and regards.
Rotel 11 tribute is on permanent offer in EU for 500$, Fosi goes 160+160 with sparkos, a bit more of money and you play in a different league
NE5532 opamps are some of the oldest, most basic opamps still in use. Pretty much any IC opamp - and definitely discretes - will substantially outperform them. As soon as you replace them, it's immediately noticeable and not really even close, IMO....
I’m excited to put op amps into my coffee maker so the coffee is more smooth!
I did this to my Kinki Studio amp and it was a significant upgrade
Switched with Muses8920, bass i so much tighter and seperation increased ;-) Love these opamps! The OPA1622 is also very good!
Thanks, cheap audio man. Your content is awesome. I have a wiim pro into an S.M.S.L SU-1 into a ZA3 amp. It actually sounds better than my YAMAHA receiver not an inexpensive one either. I think I will try the op amp switcharoo.Side note I have 2 ZA3 amps and as far as I have tried you cannot mono block through the SU-1 DAC! I can afford much more expensive gear, but this stuff is just fun. Fun is what is all about boys and girls.
I own several Fosi/Aiyima/SMSL components. I 100% agree with idea that they are changing audio and I even have a business idea built around them. However, I think the figures they put out for their wattage are highly suspect. One example is the Aiyima T9 I put in our son's system. It's supposed to have 100W per side at 4 ohms. Let's call that 60 to 80 into 8 maybe. Sounded good and the Bluetooth is perfect for a teenager. I picked up a 1974 Onkyo TS 220 receiver for $35 in a thrift store. Cleaned it up and hooked it up the same system. It's not close! That Onkyo is rated at 6.5 watts per side and it destroys the Aiyima. In my workshop, I replaced a borderline disposable Pyle class D amp with an AO7 Pro. The latter is supposed to put out 4 times as much wattage but it sounds better, not louder. At all. I'm under the impression that a lot of these Chifi amp figures are speculative at best even if they do sound pretty good.
its an "accurate" number, but its out of context. The actual output is something closer to 75 watts per channel.
You are correct in that they don't publish the numbers with any meaningful reference; as in they don't specify thd or do anything consistently. That is why places like audioholics and ASR provide independent 3rd party bench tests.
You’re right about the power ratings, I bought a smsl a300 that’s rated at 165 watts per channel, audio science reviewed it, it put out 107 watts per channel with high distortion
Now the Fosi v3 was also tested with the 48v power supply. It put out 161.1 watts with 191.1 watts headroom, low distortion & highly recommended by audio science.
Well, I beg to differ. I used to have an pretty expensive Audiolab amplifier (2x60w at 8 ohm) with my Dali speakers and the sound was ok. Then it broke down and as a temporary solution I got a cheap Aiyima A08. And it was much more powerful and better sounding. Almost couldn't believe it. So I kept it. Now I got two Fosi V3 Mono and the sound went from great to... astounding! Don't know if new op-amps would change anything but Fosi sent me two Muses02 so I will have a go.
@@karlschultz8995 the Fosi are certainly in a class by themselves. My V3 is an excellent amp especially when price is considered. But if you go to the channel that actually tests these amps in real time you'll see a lot of them don't match published specs and on some of them it's less than 50% of published specs. I think the latest they tried was an SMSL that was claiming 200W a side and it was actually putting out something like 35W.
I have listened to about 7 different op-amps, and the small Sparkos - the SS3602 that Randy reviews here, is my favorite in situations where it is the largest DIP8 unit you can fit. My second choice is one that he doesn't review - the Muses02; which is an IC op-amp (like the stock ones) and it costs about $45.
In the AkitikA PR-102 preamp that Randy used in this review, you can upgrade *its* op-amps all the way up to the *big* Sparkos - a pair of the SS2590 installed in their DIP8 adapter. It is about 2X bigger in all directions, so it will not fit in the compact Class D amps. The PR-102 uses OPA1632 (if I recall correctly) in 6 locations, and replacing 2 of these - the main input stage and the main output stage - takes it up to world class levels, in my opinion. Two others are used for the tone controls, and the remaining 2 are the two tape inputs.
I should mention that you can get the Sparkos op-amps for %15 off by signing up for their news email - which is only a couple of times a year.
So the $80 becomes $68.
Muses02 lover here 👍
@@MrDavidDiz it is a very good op-amp - the best IC op-amp I have tried. It is spacious and smooth and clean - kind of like the Ares II DAC, is how I would characterize it.
Have you also heard a Sparkos? In my opinion, it is even more open and clear and airy, as well as better bass and midrange clarity.
Nice project, I did this with my ASUS soundcard. I bought dual opamps from Burson for it, and changed the 5532 from NEC to Burson.
Sound changed a lot with music of high quality, not so much from compressed sound from RUclips.
Have you considered modding the case of your ZA3/V3 with a Dremel to accommodate the taller op amps from companies such as Burson, Orange, Staccato, etc...? You wouldn't need to remove the PCB either, as the sockets would be accessible through the holes using an IC extractor tool and a magnifying lamp.
6:47 The V3 ships stock with 5532s. I have Burr Brown OPA627s in it now. Wow. I have 5 SS3602 Sparkos in my Douk Audio T8 Pro. Massive difference in sound. Rolled the tubes too!
What tubes did you roll with! I love my t8.
I replaced the stock tubes with PS Vane 6SN7 and the soundstage was awesome
I went with German made RCA NOS 6SN7s. I’ve heard really good things about the PS Vane tubes.
Same here, this DOUK preamp is fantastic after changing the tubes. First of all, I changed the power supply for a linear one I had already for previous devices, the difference was a much cleaner sound. I've changed the tubes for E88CC from Genalex (Gold Lion), awesome tubes, I'm also waiting for PSVANE 6SN7 tubes, can't think it will be much better but who knows... Installing the Sparkos was another substantial upgrade, wasn't expecting that much of improvement, but it was as spectacular as the better tubes.
Opamps are like tubes - everyone seems to have a different preference and it's easy to spend more on the replacements than you paid for an (admittedly cheap) amp. iBasso were big on this years ago, albeit with tiny portable headphone amps (many of which cost more than the Fosi speaker amps !)
I love tubes more
I’ve seen quite a few hyped up RUclips presenters, but you take the cake
He always looks like he just got out of bed but, loaded up on caffeine 🤣
Even with the sparkos upgrade, does this amp sound as good or better than a $500 - $1,000 integrated A/B design?
No, these sit somewhere between those and your typical AVR, while offering a lot of flexibility.
If you want to hear the difference that Sparkos opamps make (and they make a big difference!) here's a cool test I (inadvertently) did and could hear the upgrade in real time. If you are running the A07 max or ZA3 in mono blocks only swap one of the opamps, connect the amps to your speakers and play music. What I heard is that the speaker with the Sparkos sounded significantly louder (it was so noticeable that for 15 min I thought I had a bad amp until I realized the "quieter" speaker didn't have the Sparkos). There are "speaker test" tracks on Tidal that play left speaker / right speaker test audio and you can hear the difference the Sparkos makes in real time (A/B testing can be hard to do in real time unless you have special equipment).
Also I upgraded to Sparkos in my Geshelli DAC and that too made an additional difference in sound; basically, the opamp upgrades STACK on top of each other so you can make material improvements for cheap (at least by hifi standards lol). IMO if you are only upgrading one component at a time I think changing the opamps in the amplifiers made the biggest difference.
NOTE: I've seen in the comments (and read elsewhere) that there is a real safety risk if you touch a loaded capacitor (the round battery looking things on your amp board). Luckily I had no issues but if your are doing the test I described above I would definitely let the amp sit for a while before opening it back up after you've been running it just to be on the safe side. Also when running monoblocks you only change one opamp per amp (not both...so 2 total, not 4).
I'm so sick of hearing people hate on CAM, but seriously, as someone who clearly has a lot of products he recommends, what has your experience been like? I'm personally looking at upgrading my HT setup and the main upgrade I'm thinking about is front channel amplification. Since you mention you've run monoblocks, have you ever used an HT receiver? I was wondering how these compare to the built-in amplification of my Yamaha 90w receiver from 2010 rx-a400. It has RCA preouts so just thought I'd ask if you have any experience with this type of thing.
@@2kdesignstudios72 I know nothing about HT. But these amps are great if you just need clean power. You really don't even need to mono block...one alone is more than enough power for 90% of speakers. I've had a great experience with these amps (A07 max) and the Geshelli DAC was a signifiant improvement over the internal DAC of the Wiim Pro streamer. As for speakers, everyone gets so caught up in these reviews but you need to listen to speakers before you buy them b/c sound preference is SO much more subjective than objective IMO. Also CAM rocks...I love the channel...how can you not?! That being said expensive speakers also rock...all these truths can co-exists!
Nothing dagerous unless touching high voltage power supply caps.
I bought the Aiyima a07 and it sounded pretty crappy on it's own. I added a Dac and it made a huge difference. I paired it with the Elac Bs41 for an office system and it sounds pretty good. All, in it only cost around $200 which is cheaper than some crappy big box store mini system.
Thanks, Randy! Love this video! It's a little out of my technical comfort zone, but I think my my Fosi V3 is coming apart! Sparkos all the way for me! Love them in my Geshelli headphone amp!
Hey Bob, be sure to use a discount code when you make your next purchase. You should have received one for returning customers. If not, Save15 works for 15% off. Significant savings. I absolutely love the Sparkos opamps. I have 5 in my Douk T8 Pro! 😎 Love your channel sir!
@@ericboehm4529 thanks for the tip! Douk just sent me their new H7 Pro for review, but I can find much info on it yet, I wonder if the amps in that can be swapped?
@@UnitedStatesofAnalogMight be worth a look under the hood! The T8 Pro comes apart with just the 4 screws in the front panel.
Pretty amazing how small changes can affect the sound quality, sometimes it’s as easy as upgrading capacitors in preamps and amps…even speakers
I tried the muse02 and sparkos op amps in the a07max. Sparkos is a little too clean for my liking, but the muse02 are amazing. Can't wait to try them in the za3.
Hi there, do let us know how you get on with the muses 👍
If you’re running the A07 max in mono. Is it just using one opamp or both. And if it’s only one, which one?
I just have the one. Not sure if I'll upgrade on the a07max.
The thing is, these new cheap amps are only rated high because of the value. Once you make the $80.00 Aiyima cost over $200.00 I would be out.
Love that you included OPA1656! Was curious about that opamp and how it sounds!
Randy. Try Staccato Audio discrette opamp. Made in Poland. Some say, in direct comparison, sound even better than Sparkos….
one additional question:
is there still a noticeable difference between the TI and the Sparkos if you run them in dual mono mode?
i guess you would need 4 fosi audio amps to compare it with your setup. which you probably do not have.
why i am asking for that? one important part of an opamp stage is power supply noise rejection rate. that is very important when both channels share the same power supply.
and that is less important in mono mode because you don't have signals from the right channel polluting the power supply on the left channel.
if the sparkos has a better power supply signal rejection rate that would explain a better performance than the texas. that might not be needed in dual mono mode.
and maybe adding a good 1µF very low ESR cap to the texas chip power input can do the trick as well without breaking the bank.
Thanks!
Thank you so much!
I had a fosi class D amp (with the bass&treble knobs) and it was original. And I listened to it one night and I was really thrilled with it and I loved it. The next morning it still sounded just as amazing, no sibilance like with a lot of class D amps. Then I AB tested it with my Audiolab class AB amp. First thing I noticed was the fuller and more VIBRANT treble sound (more body) and the soundstage just opened out like an explosion, and it seemed to sound a million times better! Way more engaging, like chalk&cheese. Yet I loved the fosi when I heard it before and didn't think it would be much different. Boy, was I wrong! That's the difference when you use the very same song for a comparison, I suppose AU $100 and AU $1800 can make a difference. 😅
makes sense yet it’s speakers that have sibilants; how does an amp act sibilant. too bad this channel would never reveal something so great for consumers to know.
@@chinmeyswayamp could be sibiliant but that would mean it had really crappy tone control loop or something wrong with the feedback loop
For home listening I would never use class D amps! I only prefer to use them for subwoofer duty when I run live sound for bands. Class AB sounds far better for critical, detailed, listening.
I did the Sparkos opamps hack with my Aiyima A07, it dramatically improved things. Now I'm not satisfied with my cheap DAC, DX3 Pro+! I just ordered a better one! Matrix Mini-i Pro (using the ES9016 Ultra chip). I just feel like the DX3 pro is not clear, I hear DACs with low grade power supply solutions can underperform.
I put the Sparkos in my ZA3 and I 100% agree.
Hey, are these sold in pairs? It's showing $79 for the SS3602 op amp-dual.
@@cnnlive10sadly you need two, on for each channel, one for balanced if you want to use that, and two for the sub. That’s 5 in total.
@@cnnlive10 Nope, $79 each
@@cnnlive10 it’s for a single unit, it’s a double stacked board
I loved the sound from the sparcos too but here in europe they are super expensive at nearly €90 per piece. Then i found the OPA2604, which to my ear sounded very similar to the sparcos at a fraction of the cost (€10). Did anyone else have the same experience?
My second favorite to the Sparkos is the Burr Brown OPA2227. It’s so close in sound and much less expensive.
@@ericboehm4529 awesome i'll look out for that one too, thanks for the info
opa2604 is warmer and less detailed than the sparkos
@@ericboehm4529have you tried opa2228?
@@D1N02 i appreciate your insight and i agree with you, the Sparcos are the superior opamp but i just can't justify the €90 premium per chip, so i have to take the next best thing. As for the sound, i like a little warmth to my music, especially blues and jazz, for metal or rock a lill less so. For me its difficult to choose since i like a broad range of music.
I have a few Fosi products and they are great but Im gonna have a go with one of the ones I dont use as much. Thanks for the heads-up, Randy. You da man !
You would need only the ones for the left channels in each amp.
@@ericboehm4529the right channels only need changing. What a doughnut.
So if im running the A07 max in mono and I want to upgrade the op amps like a sparkos ss3602 would i only need to purchase 2 chips? One for each of the left signals since mono is only using one channel in each amp?
Whatever brings better quality sound into the lives of many is a great thing. They don't take up much space making them acceptable in many more domestic situations. Digital or switchmode amps have come a long way in recent years. I run bigger more conventional amps but I see these little things as the future . Just as we have seen the headphone explosion....for travel and domestic situations. Playing with these things is a learning experience too. Well done Randy.
I Am Not An Electrical Engineer. Just playing Devil's Advocate here. First off, yes, you can change the sound or tone of a piece of gear by substituting opamps, no doubt. How much of that is due to any superiority of the new opamps are open to debate. I would assume (therefore surely making a certain quadruped of myself) that the original circuitry was carefully designed for the original opamps. Dropping in a different even if quite similar component can affect the electrical characteristics of the original circuitry involved in supplying the opamp with voltage, audio signals and the amplifier stages post opamp. This could easily affect the audio signal in any number of ways, both subtle or grossly. How much of that either way may depend on it simply being a different "load" for the existing circuit versus the wonderfulness of the new part, may well be up for debate.
To understand how rolling opamps is affecting the sound three concepts need to be looked into: open loop gain, negative feedback, and distortion.
Open-loop gain refers to the gain of an amplifier or a feedback system when no feedback is applied. It represents the amplification factor of the system without any corrective measures.
For example, open loop gain of the LM4562 at 1kHz is 95dB. The decibel (dB) scale is commonly used to express gains or losses in a logarithmic manner. In this case, a gain of 95 dB corresponds to a voltage gain of 56,234 V/V.
Open loop gain varies depending on the frequency. For the same LM4562 open loop gain is reduced to 75dB (5,623 V/V) at 10kHz and to 70dB (3,162 V/V) at 20kHz. Hovewer it is 125dB (1,778,279 V/V) at 20Hz.
While open-loop gain itself doesn't directly reduce distortion, it sets the stage for the application of feedback, which is a key technique used to mitigate distortion in audio amplifiers.
Negative feedback is commonly used in audio amplifiers. This involves feeding back a portion of the output signal to the inverting input of the amplifier. The feedback signal is then compared to the original input, and any discrepancies are used to adjust the output.
The effectiveness of a given circuit in adjusting the output signal is directly proportional to the open-loop gain present in that circuit at a specific frequency. Typically, the open-loop gain curve is defined by internal compensation mechanisms inside the amplifier. In most cases, such a curve decreases at a rate of 20 dB per octave.
Note that spakos opamps use two pole compensation compared to ther opamps that use traditional Miller capacitor compensation. Two pole compensation allows for very high open loop gain which translates into better sound.
When the open-loop gain is low, negative feedback becomes less effective in stabilizing and linearizing the amplifier's response. Negative feedback relies on a high open-loop gain to reduce distortion and improve linearity. If the open-loop gain is low, the feedback may not be sufficient to counteract the inherent nonlinearities and variations in the amplifier's characteristics, leading to reduced effectiveness in correcting errors and maintaining stability. In such cases, the amplifier may exhibit higher distortion and poorer performance compared to a system with a higher open-loop gain where negative feedback can have a more pronounced corrective effect.
I think you may be giving some of these companies a little bit too much credit. Highly doubt that they "engineered" their product around a .50 op amp. Your mileage may vary though. I'm not telling anyone to go out and change everything out I'm just saying what I heard and what I liked. I like sparkos op amps compared to the others. if you have the time and budget I'd say do something similar yourself and choose what you like. if there's no difference then you'll know I'm full of crap.
@@pavlobilous4030now we’re talking
Holy Hades I have the exact same Realistic receiver!!! Used it with a couple of Dayton Audio B652 AIR speakers and AirPort Express in the garage for really good sound. It now resides in my oldest grand-daughter's room.
It is probably a better upgrade to use the ZA3 in mono mode. Instead of three sparkos opams you get two and an extra ZA3. The 1656 didn't do it for me. I found it's presentation boring when using it in the Aune X8 or in my tube buffer preamps. I'm not sure if replacing the xlr opamp is needed. I think it's there for the common-mode signal rejection. Another potential upgrade is de GaNfet 48v power supply. If you order the ZA3 without the power supply it is very affordable.
Could you please advise what op amp did you change (or suggest to change) if you have 2 ZA3's and 2 sparkos op amps? The right chanel ones? Or the XLR input one?
@@jonathannieto8377 Fosi advises just the right channel. You're free to experiment of course. When using them in Mono a preamp also becomes more important.
What’s with all the haters on this comment thread. If it’s not your cup, go find another tea channel.
Snake oil is snake oil. I guess you love snake oil so you do you 👌 i got fooled i to buying one of these chinese amps. in the end they sound how much they cost. You get what you pay for 🤷
Ya'll haven't heard real hifi before, haven't ya?
@@sepg5084
Hmm. It actually was the love of good sounding equipment at all price lines that I heard on this channel that inspired me to buy my first tube amp…which cost more than all the equipment I had purchased to that date.
The mantra here is, great sound doesn’t have to cost an arm and a leg…and I believe it. I have a half dozen systems in my house and have cobbled together great starter systems for my kids based on recommendations, and more importantly, the understanding of how components compliment (or do not) each other.
I think the first CAM recommendation I acted on were the ELAC B6s and Sony SSCs and I learned the difference between analytical precision and a warm and wonderful speaker. I use the Elacs in a small system in a bedroom and they are awesome. I have the SSCs in use at two children’s places, matched with hand me down receivers and they rock.
Last spring, I bought the FOSI Audio tiny amp and paired it with a set of giant Monoprice outdoor speakers for the back yard and it is awesome.
I also have purchased Ayima pre-amp/DAC and use it with my tube amp to handle conversion chores…and the small JBLs recommended…and of all these guided purchases, only the JBLs have been a bit of disappointment. Maybe I just need to find the right setting and amp pairing.
That’s the fun of this, that’s the spirit of this channel. And although I have all the stereo equipment I need now, by buying and pairing inexpensive equipment such as discussed here, I have opened the world to all my family and several friends.
Well worth the price of admission.
But hey, if Cheap ain’t in your blood, plenty of other channels on the Tube.
@sepg5084 you do have a point but beside a discussion about snake oil and "real Hifi" you also need to accept the fact that we are at cheapaudioman and not the audiophiliac or someone else. It's more about what you expect and find yourself in the presented opinion. Videos as this one are not meant to disconnect the grey mass and are surely to build an own opinion. I think it's more to agree to disagree without being rude ;)
@@sepg5084
Bad spelling AND bad grammar. Typical for a troll.
Blah blah blah cry me a river
Thanks for another great video! I've got a ZA3 in stereo mode going into a pair of ELAC Uni-Fi 2.0 UB52s (in no small part thanks to the great reviews I got from your channel). Great sound but always happy to get better! Wondering if you think there would be more benefit from getting a second ZA3 to run each speaker from a mono amp or upgrading the singe ZA3 with a pair of the Sparkos Op Amps. Open to doing both but now sure how much improvement I get from the mono amp arrangement on these speakers. Thanks again!
Waiting for someone to do the full blown treatment to one of these bad boyz. New enclosure, shielded linear PSU that exceeds requirements & amp board altogether, + the opamp upgrades. Id imagine youd have yourself a cool ass sleeper amp that punches up all damn day!
A good switching power supply can destroy even the best linear. In the end it's all about implementation
@@paulgyro ok yes, a solid switch mode would be just as appropriate, long as it puts out the juice amp needs for alllll of its head room ; )
As an electronic engineer I can say well designed linear is really NOT inferior in any way but in efficiency. Also ANY power supply that is low noise enough and has a low impedance output and good regulation will work and SHOULD not change the sound. If it does then the amp is definitely sub-par.
These too?.......................
. There may be more hifi printed circuit boards out there that include opamp rolling sockets than people realize. Opamps are in preamps and EQ's too. And, surprisingly, not all manufacturers include this info in their literature.
Emotiva's 2nd model DAC, if I can remember correctly, is one of these models. If one becomes practiced looking at the PCBs, then one might recognize an excellent up-gradable hifi "sleeper" component on the barely used market (it may have been the SMSL SU-8 instead or both that are said capable). Wish you good hunting.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
Most audiophiles would rather “roll” components. Or cables. Or cartridges. Op-amps seems like major surgery (even if it’s not). I think if I had 1 Fosi, no big deal. So your upgrade path would be another fosi, or op-amps. With 2 Fosis… you could bump to a more traditional company (rotel or emotiva) or op amps. I think more users would opt in if offered by factory. Like Zu speakers sort of do. YMMV (a lot).
Many of us can’t roll out a whole component. The cost of entry to the next level bars it. But with a smallish investment, we can take the components we have and make them much better.
I did a lot of op amp rolling many years ago. Tried just about everything available at the time and remember settling on discrete Dexas on the front end and LME49710 on the output of an $800 DAC. Couldn't use discretes throughout due to high current draw.
Anyhow...I just picked up the ZA3 last week and decided to try out a few different op amps. Unfortunately I got rid of my DAC and extensive op amp collection a while back so had to reorder. Ordered some 2134 and 1656. Funny thing is that for every positive comment I read on either of these somebody else has something negative to say.
I'm starting to ask myself if I'll even bother to open up the ZA3 or maybe just leave the stock OAs in. After all this is a $129 amp and as good as it is the more I live with it the ore I realize its shortcomings.
Peace
Can you update us what op amp you found best for the Za3 from your experience? Was it worth it?
@@aeon7748 the two OPAs that I mentioned are still in their packaging as, from what I've read, would be a subtle lateral change in sound at best. I'm still debating whether I'll order discretes or not. I would need to have two ZA3s and a good switchbox to be able to properly A/B different opamps.
@@mikecees2230 I did hear differences with online A/B test from "NX-Otica - Fosi ZA3 NE5532 / SparkOS SS3602" video, I cut clips from each op amp video segment, synced them down to 0.001 seconds using wave peak as guide in Audacity, exported to .wav files, then compared using ABX plugin in Foobar2000, there IS a significant difference, and it's not just RMS level, they were level matched in the video down to ~ 0.42 db, the shape of the peaks is different and so is the subjective resulting sound, but I confirmed it with passing 15/16 attempts,
However, even though there is a change, I'm debating to change the op amps last, because allegedly they do not work well with the new Fosi V3 mono's where the Musus02 matches better, so it'll just be wasted if I ever decide to go with the new V3's, I'll maybe attempt to change DAC and/or add another Za3 before changing op amps.
If I do though, perhaps I'll update this thread.
Burson V6 Vivid Opamps are the one to get, much better than those tiny 5s you tested...they made a big noticeable difference in my Amp.
I have a question. Would you go Fosi D class + opamps or for example Cambridge A/B class since D class starts cheap but at the end of the day eventually they will cost the same.
I have 60$ D class with 300$ worth of opamps in it 😁 In sense if you are beginner or just want good sound, then maybe it's actually better idea to go straight to 200-400 range except if you are really tight with budget, then Fosi with factory OP's are good enough, better than most A/B classes from 1980 to 2000+.
I just think everyone should be entitled to their opinion. Especially when they leave an alternative source to use instead of tubes. Me personally, I just prefer Rec, AV Rec or Amp this is just my opinion. I don't think anyone should be ridiculed for what they like and their opinion doesn't always have to agree with yours! That's just life you have to learn to agree to disagree.
Sorry...newbie here. Have watched a few of your videos Randy... very informative and entertaining! Just a bit confused on the opamp front. Watched geshelli dacs j2 video and there was mention of upgrading to Sparkos opamps. Are the fosi opamps different considering the ZA3b is an amp vs DAC. Hope in making sense here... thx
I picked up the Alpha 5's on sale for $299 new. They are amazing
I have a stock ZA3, paired with a Geshelli labs J2s with the TI OPA1656 op amps in it right now. Should I upgrade the DAC or Amp op amps first. I'm picking up two Spakos SS3602 shortly, but if anybody has any ideas/experience I would love hear it.
The MP-110 has a 1-2 dB upper midrange dip, quite apparent from direct LP-CD comparisions. Also using 200 pF shunt caps to tame its high treble, boosting the 2K band on my Loki produced a tone much like the CD.
Just shunting them makes a
6dB/oct rolloff so if it has a shelving boost in high treble then you are gonna lose the very top
@@jaakkolehto1487 I did that on purpose to tame the 13 KHz tip mass resonance. I don't mind losing what's above that.
@@1mctous well thats nice. I have designed and built some speakers and the tweeters on my current setup go slightly up after 14K. That though is somewhat irrelevant and my ortofons rolloff makes that nonexistent.
Damn, I think I had that Realistic receiver back in 1984, with 2 Minimus 7 speakers. Bought it summer I graduated high school.
I loved it so much
I graduated in 84, the second thing I bought after I bought a 74 AMC Hornet x was a pair of realistic Mac 1 speakers and realistic receiver. They sounded awesome together. Not to my parents delight 😁😁😁Those were the days.
The first gen of that receiver is the STA-7. I still have one, waiting to find an output module for the left channel.
Very awesome and informative video! Plus, your shirt is LEGENDARY! The Goonies is in my top 5 all-time favorite movies, but I am an 80's nerd or better yet, a GOONIE!
THE BEST HACK: upgrade the FUSES! I upgraded my Cambridge Azur 851N and my Focal solo 6 s with synergistic master fuses……. OMG…. The audio quality improvements are unbelievable.
Thats ”mildly” snake oil I say
You should try the AD827. These are what I use in my Fosi Audio V3.
Hi Randy, great info. These sort of hacks make me remember when we swapped and compared Mullard ECC82s in our valve preamps to various other versions, Osram, Sovtek etc. One question if you use the ZA3 in mono mode, am I correct in assuming that only two opamps would be needed? one for the audio channel that is being used, and one for the XLR input?
With all my respect for those who think differently, but all these individual impressions sounds crazy for me... I never saw an audiophile (self declared, since there is no formal and technical way to define and certify one) that would accept to do a really blind test... yes, a blind listening session test, just listening and not knowing the changes made.... just judging between sample #1, #2... and so on, and at the end, to be able to classify the same way they would describe the differences (in this case op amps) if they were doing it by themselves knowing the brand of things.
How many would I need to replace the op amps on my two Aiyima A07 Max amps that I run in mono? Each amp only uses the left channel in mono so does that reduce the need to change certain op amps? I'd only consider spending $80 per op amp if I only had to change a couple of them.
You’d only need the ones for the channel being used by the amp.
@@ericboehm4529 Thanks. So is that one per mono block amp? In other words this is an $80 x 2 project rather than $80 x 4+? Each amp only cost $80. I'm using a WiiM Pro Plus to feed the Kef KC62 sub that thr feeds the two Aiyima A07 Max and then finally on to the Kef LS50 Meta. I'm trying to work out if this is really going to improve things or if it's just snake oil.
This is all just snake oil though right? Otherwise we'd have every amp manufacturer waxing lyrical about their op amps. I can believe I almost fell for it and I definitely feel a bit cheated by Randy
wrong. most consumers out there are using powered speakers like Sonos. That's what has really changed the hi fi industry, who are selling less amplfiers and passive speakers these days. If you are talking specifically about the hi fi community, which is a very small percentage of all consumer electronic customers, they are still inherently spending money on big expensive amps. What you are talking about is the cheap hobbyist community, not the hifi/audiophile commnunity
Hi I know I’m a little late here so I’ll be brief. Regarding the Fosi x2 Phono pre amp, can you swap those op amps with the ones you show in the video? It’s difficult to find which op amps to get for the x2 and how to swap them. I’ve already upgraded the tubes. Thanks!
I don’t know if is to late to ask but I was wondering if the changing the power supply to a better one will change the sound of the za3.
Sounds like snake oil to me. Or perhaps in the best case EQ with extra steps.
Good info. After watching I’ve been thinking about going down the opamp upgrade path for my Fosi ZA3’s. What occurs to me is that there are opamps in every link in the audio chain. Question is, aren’t we affecting the sound character each time we pass it through another opamp? If I feed the digital output of my cd player into my DAC, the analog output of the DAC runs the signal through opamps yes? Then if the DAC analog output goes to a preamp, it goes through opamps in the preamp, then the preamp output goes into a power amp which also runs it through opamps. Boggles my mind a little. It would seem that we would want all the opamps in the chain to be as neutral as possible, then maybe just choose opamps with character (like warmth) in the last device. I guess that’s basically what you’re recommending here.
Tube rollers have entered the chat.
Great video. Love that the Akitika made an appearance.
great video for my champagne taste and beer budget.
OK question for the Cheap Audio Man or anyone that knows. If I choose the Sparkos OP-Amp in my Gesheiil DAC then run RCA to my Marantz SRR7015 then out to my Emotiva BasX A3 how many op-amp does the signal run through from DAC to speakers. Do they all need replaced.
Tuve un amplificador classe CA101, hermoso amplificador muy musica, pero se descompuso un lado, y para arreglarlo es muy dificil por tener piezas de grado militar y de prescion, y hechas a la medida...po ello opte por estos amplificadores pequeños que son faciles de arreglar y actualizar, ademas de ser menos estorbo. creo que es una opcion nueva para quien ya no queremos comprar algo muy costoso, que tal vez no nos guste como suene y que sea muy dificil de arreglar.
What most people don't realize is the real problem of counterfeit parts from most all China products. The 5532 op amp is a old low cost IC and most China products have fake 5532! Yes a $1.00 part is ,most the time ,a fake part! I believe the reason Fosi has done well is they makes sure to order parts from suppliers that sell real parts. A real 5532 is a good sounding part. For under $10 their is a long list of better op amps. Which will sound better is for the end user to find out. Just for reference the Muse IC is not really a great sounding chip most the time, its dark and closed in. Most the chips sold are fake too.
Hold on, ppl have been opamp rolling for decades. Starting with the old Head-fi group back in the early 1990s (Kevin Gilmore, Tanget, BoyElroy) onwards, actually. I changed the opamps on my old Audio Alchemy and DIY Gilmore amps from OPA627s to AD797/AD825, etc.
To understand how rolling opamps is affecting the sound three concepts need to be looked into: open loop gain, negative feedback, and distortion.
Open-loop gain refers to the gain of an amplifier or a feedback system when no feedback is applied. It represents the amplification factor of the system without any corrective measures.
For example, open loop gain of the LM4562 at 1kHz is 95dB. The decibel (dB) scale is commonly used to express gains or losses in a logarithmic manner. In this case, a gain of 95 dB corresponds to a voltage gain of 56,234 V/V.
Open loop gain varies depending on the frequency. For the same LM4562 open loop gain is reduced to 75dB (5,623 V/V) at 10kHz and to 70dB (3,162 V/V) at 20kHz. Hovewer it is 125dB (1,778,279 V/V) at 20Hz.
While open-loop gain itself doesn't directly reduce distortion, it sets the stage for the application of feedback, which is a key technique used to mitigate distortion in audio amplifiers.
Negative feedback is commonly used in audio amplifiers. This involves feeding back a portion of the output signal to the inverting input of the amplifier. The feedback signal is then compared to the original input, and any discrepancies are used to adjust the output.
The effectiveness of a given circuit in adjusting the output signal is directly proportional to the open-loop gain present in that circuit at a specific frequency. Typically, the open-loop gain curve is defined by internal compensation mechanisms inside the amplifier. In most cases, such a curve decreases at a rate of 20 dB per octave.
Note that spakos opamps use Two Pole compensation compared to other opamps that use traditional Miller capacitor compensation. Two Pole compensation allows for very high open loop gain which translates into better sound.
When the open-loop gain is low, negative feedback becomes less effective in stabilizing and linearizing the amplifier's response. Negative feedback relies on a high open-loop gain to reduce distortion and improve linearity. If the open-loop gain is low, the feedback may not be sufficient to counteract the inherent nonlinearities and variations in the amplifier's characteristics, leading to reduced effectiveness in correcting errors and maintaining stability. In such cases, the amplifier may exhibit higher distortion and poorer performance compared to a system with a higher open-loop gain where negative feedback can have a more pronounced corrective effect.
@cheapaudioman I’m looking for something with the same functionality as the Akitika that can run 2 sources simultaneously to A/B amplifier setups. Are you aware of any comps on the market to the Akitika with that specific feature?
Can we get a review on a HDMI audio extractor so we can use our old gear with new devices. Thanks
Still waiting on my ZA3 to get here, it just landed in the US yesterday. I think ill start with the Burson V5i op amps to save some money, then try the Sparkos SS3602 ones some time later.
Hmmm, I was waiting for the instructions on actually replacing these? Is it not hard to do? Requires a soldering iron or no?
No soldering. Other Z3 videos do a step by step
I love it in the beginning of all your videos when you tell us to grab a cup of coffee, hahahaha, I love coffee.
So...spend over the cost of the amplifier to make it sound better? Sorry, seems counter productive to me...idk...
These inexpensive chip amplifiers are not worth op-amp swaps.
+1 on the leave it as is
There will be some very interesting developments this year with these brands
Will be very cool to see legit amps shake up the market
The Miata’s need an LS1 swap…now that will make a difference
So with a pre-amp/dac with volume, and two Za3 with sparkos, are you getting better sound than a traditional Emotiva, Yamaha, Rotel amp? Because you’re getting very close to the same price. I love the idea of infinite power monoblocks and they sure are fun tweak but I can’t help but feel like maybe i’m missing the big picture.
It’s more about amp design and there are a LOT of shitty designs out there.
Question for you. The XLR socket only has one opamp. I have 2 Sparkos SS3602's and 2 MUSES02's. The XLR inputs sound much better than the RCA's on my ZA3. Thinking I should put one of the Sparkos in the XLR section and take the 2 MUSES02's out of my V3. Hoping it will be like having 2 different sounding channels and reduce the cost of buying another ZA3 to run as monoblocks.
for Klipsch 8000f currently have all 3 which would u recommend Crown 1502 , Fosi BD20pro, Fosi ZA3. crown or uograde fosi w op amp. i like both on my 8000f but more headroom w crown but fosi pushes good and aq little more sizzle
Thats funny, i just mounted some psb A 3's to my ceiling a few weeks ago
Just enjoy the ZA3 as it comes. We are so impressed with this amazing amp straight out of the box so why not just enjoy it. If one needs to change the characteristics of the sound then just purchase a sound processor.
Different strokes for different folks. Kind of like how some people like ketchup on a hot dog while others prefer mustard etc. but this is more fun I would assume? I have not done it.
Does the swap out of the op amps require soldering?
On a socket no
I've replaced opamps in a lot of my studio gear made in the early 80s to newer opamps to good effect... then I saw the cost of the SS3602.. 80$ a pop for 1. yeah no. lol.
I will only use XLR input. If I decide to replace OP Amp, do I replace the XLR input OP Amp only?
I put sparkos labs op amps in my sansui 9090db. I am a believer
Can you recommend a balanced XLR headphone amplifier with swappable Opamps?
Sure sounds like a commercial to me.
I don't think so Bushman 😮
Power 20.7s w 800w@4ohms
Coda Ts v3 3kw toroidal 62lbs
please clarify this... so if i want to upgrade my aiyima Amp's op amps that i only run on mono (in theory I could only swap the Left op amp slot?
it gets expensive swapping different op amps. Too bad you cant "hear" before you swap. I would like a warmer sounding op amp in my Hypex 502. I think my Pascal amp sounds bit better compared to hypex but it would be interesting to try different op amps. OR I guess I could build a Purifi and compare all 3.
A new (r)evolution is on the way. Fosi already stated it's developing pffb for a next generation of these amps. That will be a big step up in performance!
This was my exact plan. Geshelli dac and 2 Fosi amps as mono blocks and upgrade w sparkos throughout. With a freya+ in the middle. Thats the plan.
Thanks Randy for your informative vid as usual
Love them
How would you rate the Za3 to the Smsl a300 with the za3 standard and then sparkos op amped
Cheers brother
Only cheap amps rate their products while they are clipping at 5% THD. Unfortunately, they are just copying the chipset advertised data. Analog Devices, TI, Infineon specs. These are just not that powerful. The good thing is you really do not need that much power.
I didn’t buy a Fosi amp for the advertised power, but at a fraction of that they sound just fine. Plenty of rooms with plenty of speakers will be plenty loud at 20 watts.
@@ericboehm4529”Right On!”