My New Net Zero Home Battery Surprised Me
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- Опубликовано: 14 июл 2024
- The Best Home Battery for a Net Zero Home? Use code UNDECIDED50 to get 50% OFF your first Factor box plus 20% off your next month at bit.ly/3R5fOSk The number of whole home battery options out there can make your head spin - it’s a real charge to the senses. Everywhere I looked at CES this past January someone had a shocking, modular, whole-home battery solution. Well, I’ve made my decision … or rather, I made my decision a while ago and just recently got out of permitting hell to have it finally installed. I ended up installing an Enphase battery system, but not for the reasons you might think. So why did I go with Enphase? What took so long? And most importantly … is it going to be worth the cost?
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00:00 - Intro
00:50 - What Did I Get?
01:40 - Why This Battery ... or Any Battery?
05:05 - What Did it Cost?
08:07 - What About The Pros & Cons?
11:31 - What Would I Have Done Differently? 
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The packaging waste is enormous for your lazy FACTOR cuisine.
It doesn't take long to cook up a healthy meal. And the same meal can be used for several sittings.
I think NCM is correct. You had it right...
One detail that is worth pointing out relates to the frequent misunderstanding regarding the difference in the round trip efficiency difference between the Enphase all AC connected system and the competitive DC connected systems. It is commonly stated that since a PV string produces a DC voltage and the storage battery is also DC that this means that there are zero conversion losses with a DC coupled system. This is clearly not true - if you look at any DC coupled system you will find that the battery voltage is much lower than the PV string voltage and there is a requirement to allow the PV voltage and battery voltage change independently of each other to impliment MPPT control of the PV and charge control of the battery. This voltage difference and independence is achieved through the use of a battery converter in a DC coupled system.
The companies who promote DC coupled systems will come back with an unsubstantiated assertion that a DC:DC converter should be more efficient than an equivalent AC:DC converter but this is not a valid argument if they are making a comparison to Enphase on the basis that the Enphase microinverter is more efficient than the DC:DC charge converters that are used in the commercially available DC coupled home energy products.
Matt, you missed the grid islanding technology during the power outage which only Enphase offers. The microinverters and tune the power output on the fly in the island grid mode based on the home's demand. That is where the Enphase shines.
If you *REALLY* want to be energy-efficient, do a deep dive on the 'Jean Pain Compost Heating System'. It can heat your house/greenhouse/pool/driveway & walkways/etc., as well as *drastically* boost your heat pump's efficiency in the winter time, and all while creating a top-notch soil amendment. Not bad.
All of these battery puns have left me completely drained.
I get a charge out of them.
Watt do you mean?
I am shocked by all this!
Try to remain positive.
They have the potential to keep me grounded
We need a standard for interfacing all of this together. So many of these systems are propriety and you are in a walled garden.
It exists, it's called reading out all the data over modbus and doing it yourself in homeassistant. I have 3 different brand inverters and i just readout the power generation with a 3 phase power meter over modbus, you can do the same with battery systems
We do but it's unlikely the companies will do that as it will give us more options, competition and lower prices, so unless the government regulates so different system are compatible with each other, which I think will happen at some point in many countries, but until then, I don't see the companies themselves offering that yet, and your best option if you have the skills and know-how, is to do your own set-up.
@@kiddy1992 I'm pretty dang tech savvy, and getting home assistant to work reliably can be a hundred+ hours if you have a couple dozen devices to integrate. It's getting better all the time, but it's not quite there yet.
Especially with bi-directional charging
We've had a solar company tell us they won't install batteries at our location because they won't or can't work with another company's system. Which seems... odd.
We installed two Tesla PW2's in 2018 for $15k to complement our existing 2012 installed 13.2 kW Solar PV system with microinverters and have been operating as a microgrid for ~8 months of the year in Edmonds, WA, while suppling our energy needs to our all electric home, charging two Tesla's and exporting ~50 percent of our excess energy back to grid via Net Metering. Last year we produced 474 percent (Solar production: 12,197 kW versus Net electric use: 2628 kW). We also have electric heat pump and heat pump water heater, and have done lots of other things to increase our energy efficiency. Our home was certified as being a Net Zero Energy building in 2016 by the International Living Future Institue. Our setup as been exceptionally satisfying for us, and we have weathered many power outages successfully with our system.
What did your system cost and what do you save each year?
@@jamesbrady2156 Our 2012 solar PV system was a bit pricey $83k back in the early days, and now would cost around $20-25k. Fortunately WA state had incentives which enabled us to fully pay off the cost in 7 years. Our annual electric bill costs us around $180/year. We also charge our two Tesla's completely off our roof except when on longer trips, when we utilize Tesla's supercharging grid, and we haven't been to a gas station in more than 12 years and am completely done with ICE vehicles.
@@jamesbrady2156 Our 2012 solar system with microinverters cost us $83k with incentives in place in Washington State which enabled us to pay off our solar within 7 years. We got a annual $5k check back from our electric utility provider for seven years through Net Metering by buying solar panels and inverters produced in WA. Solar costs have subsequently been reduced by factor of 4 now, and those incentives are no longer in place, but a comparable solar PV system now would cost $20-25k. Our annual electric bill averages $180-200/year.
"One throat to choke" is what we called it when we chose a single vendor solution... Time will tell and we all know you WILL tell how it works out in time! Thanks.
Love that impact barrier in front of your wall batteries. Very smart, as well as clean-looking.
Probably required by Building Code due to the Electrical and Fire damage that would happen if they got hit by a car...
HUGE electrical potential discharging in one massive short circuit would kill anyone hit by the arc or touching anything conductive when it was energized by the short...Then the lithium in the battery catches fire and now you have a whole 'nother problem to deal with...once Lithium starts to burn, not even smothering it in nitrogen or drowning it in water will put it out, that's one of the reasons Fire Departments HATE EV's like Tesla's, once they start burning, only time will put them out and lithium burns hot...not as hot as Thermite, but hotter than gas or diesel does so damage to the road/bridge structures is higher in an EV fire than it would be in a gas/diesel fire...
@@HappilyHomicidalHooligan You missed the fact that the battery in the units he installed are low voltage, and use the non-flammable LFP chemistry. Hit them with a car hard enough to create internal shorts in the cells and they will get hot and vent a bunch of smelly and somewhat toxic steam. There won't be any arc or explosion, and no shock hazard. The vented electrolyte is not flammable.
I really wait for sodium base ultra-cheap batteries!
In a home, i have space, weight is no problem, but money is. Also, they could be saver as well, if I understand correctly.
Like Matt said, if you are handy and willing to build a DIY system, you can put together a system that calls far less than the commercial offerings. LFP cells ordered directly from China and delivered to you are well under $100 per kWh now. 20 kWH, $2,000. But then you need to mount, connect, protect (BMS, breakers, fuses, wiring etc.) But even with all that, the cost for 20kWh would be under $3,000. Then you need to figure out on your own what inverters to use, how to manage them etc. ~$1,000 for 6 kW of inverter capacity if you are OK with un-listed Chinese units. And of course, all of this would have to be under the radar of your local building inspector. I built a system and put it in a detached carport, away from my house or my neighbors. It is "AC coupled" to the permitted and professionally installed rooftop solar on my house. Most days I use it to load level my electrical use. Midday solar, which is far in excess of my usage, is stored in the battery, and used to power my house from 3PM to midnight. Or, if the power is out, I can use it in off-grid mode to keep my house powered. It does not switch over automatically, I have to flip a manual changeover switch to disconnect from the grid, nor can I participate in virtual power plant programs. It's also not app controlled, and the only way to see the battery state of charge is to go to the carport and look at the BMS display. Much less slick than a commercial system. But if has all the same basic functionality, and cost ~$4,000 instead of $33,000.
They have to come out with new type of inverter as Sodium Ion batteries have GARGANTUAN voltage drop worse than old Lead Acid which no one uses anymore if they can in any way help it. The voltage drop is 6X that of LFP. Why does voltage drop matter? #1 current draw on big loads = giant voltage drop where you will blow breakers and #2 efficiency/heating problems. The poor efficiency heats the batteries and then you have to have ACTIVE COOLING as those batteries shutdown over 45C. Sodium is not cheaper than LFP. Also, shelf life of LFP is several times greater than Sodium. Unless you live in Alaska/Russia/Canada--> Sodium is NOT for you. Sodium can technically charge below freezing, but slowly whereas LFP you have to have a battery heater and insulation.
I see news articles talking about how cell costs have gone below $100/kWh but then home batteries are selling for over 10x that cost...
I think my brother once told me why that is the case, the cheaper battery are being reserved for EV cars, which if true, then consumer grade batteries for the home are a lot more expensive than they should be and probably will remain so until there is enough capacity for the EV market.
Which is ironic, because I have heard some people over the years say that it's actually cheaper to buy a EV car and use the batteries from that for your home then it is to buy the batteries on the market for your home.
They really do need to narrow that price gap between the two because the tech is the same but the price difference is massive, and if batteries for the home were as cheap as they are for EV cars, solar energy would be a lot more enticing, especially for the ones that want to go gridless.
If you do some digging you can get buy good all in one batteries for $200-300/kwh... Or even less if you diy the battery build. Eg4, big battery, and others have recently come out with some competitors to the Tesla power wall that are much much cheaper
@@paul1979uk2000 I'm pretty sure that batteries for home use need to pass a lot more tests than those used in cars. Remember that these batteries need to be able to output several Kilowatts if you happen to run a dishwasher machine, or a water cooker, or an induction plate, and possible even several at the same time. Just imagine the speed you must be driving to drain a 60kWh battery in a mere hour.
And UK? Forget about going gridless. Your usage graph is shifted six months from your solar production, to bridge that we're not talking kWh but MWh.
Cell costs are dropping, but labor costs are rising.
@@WhoStoleMyAlias ? My chevy bolt during city driving is consistently drawing like 10 - 20 kwh and at highway speeds more like 30 kwh. That's like if you had 6 dryers going at once, we'll in excess of typical household consumption.
Lots to think about when I do something like this in a year or two. Thank you Matt I feel informed about what I going to be getting into.
If you’re looking down the line instead of now then keep your eyes on sodium ion. They’re coming out of the line, safer, have more temperature range and will rapidly become more affordable than any lithium based one.
@@cameronf3343 Yes I agree Sodium ion has great potential. Materials used is certainly attention getting. let's hope it gets the funding it needs.
20 Kwh isn't remotely enough for an off grid system, particularly if you have an ev to charge. I currently have 60 kWh of batteries with an sol-ark18 kW inverter and a combination of Big Battery which I don't recommend and eg4 batteries. I really need to double this system before getting a cybertruck. You drive your vehicle mostly during the day. You need to be able to charge it at night while you sleep. You can only do that if you have a really large battery at home. But you also need a large battery to get through winter storms without having to run a generator. Of course my situation is quite different to most people. The local coop does not allow solar so I refused to hook up to them. I am truly off grid on a small ranch. I heat and cool with a heat pump and cook on an induction cooktop. I haven't had to use a generator in over two years. I have a separate system at a small farm with an eg4 18K inverter and 30 kWh of eg4 batteries. Again I need more batteries on this system for nighttime operation of hydroponic systems. I currently have to shut them down at night which isn't ideal. The solar energy world is improving but the cost of batteries is still too high. It needs to drop by at least 50%.
Just use the output of the cybertruck as the backups backup xD
Doesn't the fact that you never use the generator mean that you have too many batteries?
You obviously have enough for usage but from a cost basis it seems questionable to buy enough batteries to never need the generator that you already have.
When you buy your brick, you'll have two electric cars so one of them can be the extra battery.
@@ericmaclaurin8525Brick lol. Way too polite.
@@ericmaclaurin8525 There is no such thing as too many batteries. If the battery has an expected lifetime (when the capacity drops to 80% of nominal) of 2500 cycles at 80% DOD (depth of discharge), at 50% DOD it would be closer to 5000 cycles and 10000 cycles at 25% DOD.
That doesn't even include how the lifespan is extended since charge/discharge current per cell is smaller - 80% DOD @1C (so 20kW from 20kWh battery) is 2100 cycles, at 0.5C (10kW from same battery) is 2500 cycles and at 0.25C it's 3000 cycles.
Obviously, that's only if money (and bureaucracy) are not an issue, but otherwise the answer to the "should I get more capacity" question is almost always "yes".
Who said anything about off grid. Oh wait, you did. Never mind.
If parts are not readily available for consumers to repair or if working on it yourself voids the warranty that is an immediate no-go. Enphase website pricing is not transparent requiring you to hand over personal data to get a rough estimate.
This is the same reason I refuse to purchase a Mitsubishi mini split. I'd suggest people keep looking for a product that isn't anticonsumer. I really hope that Right to Repair outlaws these business models.
"Voiding the warranty" is a jungle of a topic with the Magnusson-Moss Act.
Most products the claim you void the warranty by opening a panel or cutting a 'magic sticker' are lying.
The way "Right to Repair" legislation is written in Massachusetts, if you actually read it, forbids and restricts doing repairs while also not requiring any specified level of detail for "repair" guides, turning manufacturers into monopolies for providing documentation, which is as bad of worse than not having the bogus law. I am for the philosophical right to repair. But I warn you against deceptive politicians and election bureaucrats who accept bills that promise one thing but do the exact opposite.
to hell with every company that requires a phone call to learn the price of their products
Mitsubishi Mini splits are incredible. I had a HVAC company install one outside unit and it is taking care of my unfinished basement as well as my 2 car garage. The basement is roughly 2500 sq ft. Zero issues in 6 years. You don’t have to deal with Mitsubishi directly so I don’t understand your reluctance. Every home is different and it takes someone on site to actually figure out what the cost will be. Just my 2 cents.
@@SetTheCurve Right? Not listing a price means the person you contact is very likely working on commission and is paid more if they can trick you into paying more.
I am pretty excited for sodium ion batteries. They are getting more and more close to the energy density of LFP. But even if they stay below it, you don't need high energy density for home storage.
Nope...I don't really care if I need more batteries to get the storage density I need if that saves me money up front...my basement has the room and if it doesn't, I can always pour a concrete pad in the back yard and build a climate-controlled, insulated shed to stick them in...That would save me money too if I need a Sprinkler System in the structure the batteries are in...smaller area = one sprinkler head, pipe and pressure tank/electric pump...
@@HappilyHomicidalHooligan With those batteries you don't even need climate controlled environment. The cool part about sodium ion batteries is their temperature tolerance and also the fact that you can discharge them to 0% and leave them like that without any damage, while for lithium based batteries this is what kills them permanently.
Also sodium is much easier to get than lithium so those batteries will be cheaper one day. Unfortunately we already have a huge industry for lithium batteries but none for sodium so right now it won't be any cheaper and will take quite some time before it will get cheaper thanks to economy of scale.
@@tomas_klouda I'd have the climate control to protect more than the batteries...it would be to keep the sprinkler pressure tank and water lines from freezing as well as keep the temperature and humidity relatively stable to reduce/eliminate condensation in the electronics and electrical connections to reduce corrosion...
Also, while the battery chemistry may work at low temperatures, they will likely work better over the long run if their temp range stays stable...
It's also to keep the Techs happy if I ever need Maintenance or Repairs done...if you were a Tech, wouldn't you want to work in a space that's 72F/22C even if it's really hot or below freezing outside? I know I'd be far happier with my Customer if they kept the work area comfortable if/when I had to go there...
@@HappilyHomicidalHooligan sure, I am the Tech and I like comfortable temperature same as batteries and electronics do 😀
I was just pointing out the advantages of sodium ion batteries including that you don't really need the climate controlled environment. The fact you don't need it doesn't mean it is not beneficial to have it though 😉
😂 I just went through that inspection here in LA County. I had to install and hard wire a smoke/heat detector less than five feet from my Enphase Batteries. And I feel you about the timing. Sometimes I wish I got the delta ultra instead of my Enphase 10T.
I wonder if the newer batteries that you showed on wheels would be considered stored vs installed for the purposes of requiring the sprinkler system when over a certain capacity. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some legal loophole to slip through like that.
great point!
yeah... the loophole is, you just don't volunteer info that you have over x capacity... especially easy if you have several small modular units as you can simply remove them from the space in the case of any required inspections... and if they're truly modular, it should be a just a couple minutes of simple plug and play to add them in, no need for an installer or any complicated wiring/connections to integrate the extra units back in...
also if claiming tax credits, or getting special low rate loans through the state/county that's requiring the sprinklers or other nonsense makes it an issue, if it's all modular, it shouldn't be all that difficult to just place the system in a small shed/outbuilding where the sprinkler wouldn't be required
This is a big concern in the industry - I suspect that this will ultimately be resolved through the insurance companies adding clauses stating that they are not responsible for pay-out if these portable battery storage systems are present inside the building or within a certain distance from the building.
I think a sprinkler system for any type of electrical is a bad idea.
@@randya9143 they DO make fire suppression for electrical that doesn't conduct electricity...
You mentioned that your Tesla has a 60 KWH battery. I would love to see more options for using electric vehicles for home backup power. We have solar with a string inverter already and just wish it were easier to tie an electric car into the system rather than buying a home battery. It seems like a no-brainer to me.
Amen! The government should also be making electric car subsidies at least partially dependant on the ability to use them for grid management.
I have a BYD Seal with V2L hooked up to my solar grid connection - I don’t have a meter as I am off-grid. That adds the equivalent of 6 Tesla powerwalls of backup power. I can charge my car back during the day. Videos on my channel
Absolutely agree! When that functionality becomes available for my BEV I’m all in.
It's kind of a bad idea to add more cycles to your car's battery since that battery more often goes through big spikes which are harder on the battery than slow gradual drain. Batteries are CHEAP nowadays, so it's not smart to churn through your proprietary pack's cycles on your Tesla/Lightning/Rivian/etc. A replacement pack on a Tesla is like $25k, yeah? You could get server rack batteries for $1100 that have 5kWh each for half that. EG4, SOK, and others make much better bang for the buck batteries that have heaters, communication ports, and apps so you can integrate them with almost any inverter on the market except the ones that lock you into their ecosystem.
I@@meikgeikIt depends on how you setup the system, which obviously depends on the type of system. I want to just connect my car to assist with the loads, rather than take over, so that means a nice steady discharge set at 1.6kw by the car's output. Unfortunately my Sol-Ark is not currently able to accept this (apparently they working on it) so what I've done is to connect the car into my first distribution panel after the inverter and in the event of a power cut or successive low solar days, I can at least run the house overnight. I have also made it possible for the car to charge the hot water tank when needed, which has proved to be a valuable option.
@Matt F. Its amazing how far you have come,I have been watching you since you started this channel and a few others since then, yes back in the old OG Tesla phase of our life lol, anyways congratulations on the new house and solar setup.
Just a few things to note, many modern solar panels has built-in power optimization tech, and for cheaper new panels you can buy Tigo power optimizer with rapid shutdown, so basically using string or micro inverters does not matter much any more since each panel performance will no longer affects each other, also DIY installation gets full access to the 30% credits as well, and the best solution for me has been a grid-tie systems with critical load and zero export, basically self consumption with TOU schedule charging time etc..
as far as cost EG4’s 14kwh external wall mount batteries cost little over $3k each with free shipping, I don’t really care what it cost others i only care what it cost me, my total setup cost $13.5k after 30% tax credits, (42kWh battery, 28 550w panels 15kPV and a EG4 18Kpv inverter), grid-tie setup with no export (zero export), just basic electrical permit needed as i am not back feeding the grid with a grid-tie setup, all this living in crazy NY, DIY with grid-tie zero export is the only way to go up here
We've had five 5Ps & the Span Remote Meter with that severe 'drift' issue & it took months of discussion, convincing, replacement, diagnostic and internal escalation at Span.. and several weeks back they finally confirmed that their SoC algorithm has wrong assumptions about the 5P's (dis)charge curve and behavior. They said it would be addressed with a firmware update but that one has yet to materialize. I can provide the support ticket no for reference if anyone wants to increase focus on / priority of fixing the issue at Span given the defacto defunc load-shedding capability with these wildly incorrect state-of-charge assumptions. I've stopped recalibrating quasi every 2-3 days for now & the end result is that Span thought i.e. yesterday that we were at 35% even though we had been at a 100% for hours at that time of day. Either way, it's a proper bug in their FW for 5Ps, not just mere compounding CTs measurement inaccuracies.
@@jbattermann I would say the bug is they are trying to do any assumptions. Why on earth are they not reading the SOC or give you the means of sending the real measured SOC to their system? Doing assumptions is utterly stupid!
@@tomas_klouda Absolutely agree. The reality however is, from my understanding, Enphase has a horrendous pricing structure around its cloud / Enlighten API, a local one for their "Envoy" exists but is unofficial/unsupported and hence, I assume, Span chose the compromise to just use CTs and "assume"/"counts" what goes in and out. Technically an obviously far inferior way but seemingly the compromise they chose for the time being.
@@jbattermann From my point of view every good product has a (preferably well documented) local API.
So in case Span has one it should be possible to send the SOC value to it and don't blame them they are not able to get it from Enphase.
And if the Enphase local API is at least somewhat stable, even though unofficial, I would assume that just reading the SOC from it shouldn't be a big deal.
My take is, that any serious manufacturer should be ready for integration with some form of building management system, otherwise it's just a toy not meant for serious and reliable use. Sure, it can be some industry standard bus and not TCP/IP, but it should have some form of well documented interface you can use to communicate with it. With so many manufacturers and devices we can't expect manufacturers to be able to seamlessly cooperate with each other, but if they provide well documented means of communication, you can always solve it by some middleman system (i.e. Home Assistant).
What I want to see is a center lot in a residential neighborhood turned into a dedicated energy storage center. Something that can turn the a few blocks of residential into a bit of a micro grid. That way the whole neighborhood can get solar and focus in electric for heat and cooking and provide emergency power as an option. I'm thinking like having 2 breakers in people's homes here. A normal 100amp service and then a optional 20/40amp emergency service that people can pay for for direct access to the battery system at all times. Think people with special medical needs kind of thing. The battery center's main goal would be a local place to be a energy buffer to overall lower the cost of electricity for the entire neighborhood. Reducing strain on the main grid acting like an expansion tank. And if it acts as a distributer for electricity then it can become its own net metering system for the local grid even if the state doesn't have one.
I'm 75, I just want to outlive my lightbulbs.
😂
funny comment
Just dont get incandescent unless you plan on dying in less than 3000 hours
I miss the old days when bulbs would burn out every couple months. Now that's a system that makes me feel my superior longevity! Honestly, it's the only thing that keeps me going these days. I live through sheer spite, just waiting for the day I can watch my LED bulb die. Damn you LED bulb! Damn you to hell!
I think with modern planned obsolescence light bulbs you are safe. You will outlive all of your light bulbs.
I hope you much frustration changing light bulbs that go out before you.
I've been the battery reuse and recycling industry for 14 years. This is a good video showing what is needed.
1) My only complaint about Lithium Ferrous Phosphate (LFP) batteries is they cost a lot to recycle. I did an estimate for the Nickel Institute of cost GREATER THAN -17.00/Kwh to recycle NMC batteries in 2023. So years down the road there it will cost you -$255.00 for 15Kwh of LFP, and factoring in inflation it will be higher in 15 years. But the size of the energy storage increases the financial pain gets more burdensome. 100KWH pack will cost -1700.00 in a car or an energy storage system.I predict that no one will be interested in paying that out of pocket. Stick to NMC for the moment. LFP may be cheaper but there is a hidden recycling fee for the consumer. And although LFP is marketed as "safer" it can burn just as well as NMC given the right conditions.
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2) The inconsistencies between evolving fire code standards that are based on Underwriter Labs (UL 1973 (energy storage), UL 9540 (grid connectivity), and UL 9540a (fire propagation). UL safety testing does not apply to EV cars. UL by itself is not law. But in the US state governments reference UL Standards for building codes and fire codes. The Fire code is revised every 5 years.
3) There is a historical basis for this divergence. It was explained to me by a person I respect, that many years ago UL and the Auto Industry made a deal, that each would not try to develop tests and standards for each other's industry. This made sense because UL tests electrical equipment. (i.e toasters) (and many other items). Automotive has electrical components, but they are in a gasoline or diesel car.
3) Now EVs are a stark reality that this deal may not make sense anymore as you said your "energy storage" system is 15Kwh but had to be under 20Kwh to avoid installing a sprinkler system while your car has 60Kwh of Lithium Ion batteries (NMC type). This a product of that old deal.
4) Imagine if you use EV Vehicle-to-Grid technology. You would have 60Kwh of battery, and now powering your home or to the grid. (Estimates are that if all cars NYC were EV's they could power the whole city for hours at a time). Eventually, safety wins, but need to reconcile old industry practices as they merge using the same new technology.
John
We also have a net zero home in south florida. Where typically near 50% of our electrical usage goes to air conditioning. Of course we have a well insulated home, with all energy star appliances and such. We regularly get hurricanes and sometimes lose electric for a couple weeks after. So we designed our system around that need. Some pointers about real electrical consumption. First off you can ignore needing to run tv’s , internet, computers, etc during an outage, because none of that stuff will work anyway, ( because it’s cut off at the source, which we have no control over). Next on the list is washer and dryer, you won’t need those either because there is no water, ( and even if there is, it won’t be drinkable or usable, ( all the pumping stations run off the grid, no grid no water)).
Next is lights, it’s much easier to use portable rechargable lights in rooms where you plan to occupy at night. However a few lights and ceiling fans should be included in the mix.
Next up is electric oven, forget about it, get a convection microwave, or a toaster oven/ air fryer, ( much more energy efficient, and runs on 120 ac typically.
Forget about electric vehicle charging, you won’t need it, all the roads are destroyed, and there are no stores or gas stations open anyway. We do have a 4 wheel drive jeep, which can ford deep water and can get thru some pretty rough stuff, but again there is nowhere to go.
We have an in ground pool, where the filter and heating system runs typically 8-10 hrs/day. In an emergency we can get by with higher chlorine contend, and run the filter for a couple hours every 2-3 days, ( basically turn some other stuff off during the time the pool pump is on, so we can use our solar and battery bank, on a sunny day, to keep the pool alive. It’s call time sharing, you only run certain things at the cost of others to not deplete your battery bank.
If you think you are going to live normal life, using all the energy you want, you are in for a rude awakening, ( unless you have of course unlimited funds and want to spend $150k on your system, ( we paid around $25k for our whole system complete).
Down here our number one priority is air conditioning and dehumidification, as the inside of the house gets over 100f and 90% humidity with no ac. And forget about nighttime cooling with the windows open, ( we don’t do that here). The lows at night are typically in the mid 80’s and the humidity actually goes up at night typically, ( sometimes over 90%). And there is typically no wind in florida anyway, ( especially in cities, where we live). We do live right near the gulf, and that helps moderate temps some, but that’s a double edge sword, ( coastal flooding).
Instead of trying to use the central ac system during a a grid outage, ( which uses tremendous amounts of energy, ( 50% of our usage when the grid is up and running). We elected to design and build a water based TES , ( thermal energy storage system). When we have an outage we only use the TES system, and a whole house dehumidifier system. Both of which run off of a secondary solar system we have on a shed in our back yard, ( none of which is connected to the house wiring in the house, ( completely self sufficient). Every car in America has a similar system installed, ( using circulating water, running thru a radiator to transfer heat). During the day, ( when the sun is shining), we circulate the water, ( stored in two large insulated tanks in our garage, ( 100 gallons each, ( home depot, $140 bucks ea)). A small circulating water pump, ( normally used on boiler systems, ($60 bucks)). A radiator for the air to pass thru, ( mounted in a duct box, in the center of our attic, between the air return, and main plenum, with a small inline circulating fan mounted in the duct to circulate the air thru the house).
What occurs is hot air rises into the return ducts, runs thru the radiator, ( heat exchanger), get cooled down, then the cool air just fall out of all the register in the ceiling in the house, ( remember cold air falls). Though the system is very small, it keeps the house below 80f and the humidity below 60%, ( via the whole house dehumidifier). Without needing to run the central hvac system at all, ( during the power outage).
During the day electric chillers, ( running on sun power) cool the house, and cools the water in the tanks. Once the sun goes down, the chillers go off, and the reserved energy in the water itself keeps the house cool thru the night, ( continuously circulating, taking the warm in from the returns, then expelling the cool air out all the registers in each room. The only power used at night is the water pump, and the solid state inline circulating fan. So we can operate the whole works off of around 400ah of lithium phosphate batteries, then the next day the cycle begins again. For really rainy days we do have a small honda generator, that we can charge the bank up in a couple hours if needed. We found even on partially cloudy days, our solar generates enough to keep everything going, ( without needing the generator).
When the grid is up and everything is healthy, we still use the TES system, because it cuts the run time hours on the main hvac system in half, so instead of the main hvac system working 10hrs a day on stage 2, it only needs to run on stage 1, half the runtime, and using much less power, than without the TES system. The result being instead of the ac electrical cost being $5-$6 dollars a day, our main hvac system costs about a buck or two, ( electrical usage). The TES system is always totally free because it’s powered by it’s own solar array and battery bank, ( thru a pair of Growatt all in one inverters, ( not tied to our big grid tied solar system at all).
I just don’t understand why people are spending so much trying to do simple tasks. We generate more energy than we use typically.
😂
Good for you. But. There are just not many in our population that understand the actions needed to adapt, to work within their climate to most efficiently solve their issues. And, not a lot of "professionals" can help either. Part of the process includes self-education, some (too many) don't or can't. I read every word and appreciate what you wrote. I live in Indiana, but it gave me some ideas about my own situation.
I bought the Tesla Battery system. I will be paying off a loan for 6 more years. Was it worth it? I live in Hurricane prone area and a city entergy relationship that is toxic. Blackouts happen weekly because of archaic wiring. Then there are the weeks after a hurricane with no grid power. Having the batteries for four years now: WORTH EVERY PENNY. Was it over priced 4 years ago. Yes. Is elon musk a raging idiot: yes. Regrets: none.
Did you noticed how much it is lost in storage?
I am curious because in all documentaries I have seen batteries praised for efficiency against other systems like hydro. I remember well the loss for hydro, which is about a third.
And I believed the myth for electricity being more efficient.
But recently I had the idea to test an basic storage I mean an regular powerbank. And surprisingly, there is a 40% loss. This is a little more than the hydro. I assumed that is a cheap and bad designed gizmo. Tested a second one, nice and expensive and was precisely the same loss. OK, maybe small systems are a lot less efficient than big ones. I looked up for real info, and I did not quite found reliable data. But somewhere it was said of 70 percent efficiency. That is not so much better compared with the hydro.
So, did you have some personal knowledge in this direction?
@@ehombane Sounds like you're using an inverter with a transformer which has a massive 30% inefficiency, possible other issues. Are you using copper or aluminum wire?
Actually a genius. Maybe if you compare to yourself.
So everything is a negative disaster but you are completely satisfied.
Well done mate!
@@chris2884 your statement makes no sense. but dont really care what you have to say. so whatever gives you joy.
I have a plot of land that is waiting for me to build. These videos help me get ideas.
We've had Enphase for more than a year now, and we're very happy. But, a system with the same storage and less generation here in Puerto Rico was $47,000. No regrets.
Thank you. This sort of first hand "my experience" information is far more useful than all the performance stats put together.
In UK it’s possible to charge up the batteries during the night (more accurately in the very early morning) using very cheap electricity [£0.07 per kWh or $0.10 per kWh] and use the electricity during the day when electricity costs £0.30 per kWh.
get givenvergy or a UK supplier that supports UK tariffs, not anker.
Some utilities in the US allow that, but unfortunately mine does not. Luckily it is often sunny enough to recharge the batteries from the solar.
I live in the UK and you are wrong about charging batteries up in the early morning. It's from 11pm until 7am and only properties that have a once called 'white meter' installed years ago for night storage heaters have this option. There is an additional standing charge for the extra meter.
@@johnwilson-mr6pw Crumbs. Check out Octopus energy…….
@@johnwilson-mr6pw No. Google EDF overnight tarrif. All you need is a smart meter
Amazing! Thank you for sharing this video. I have "decided" to use "Redflow" an Australian design flow battery for my proposed off-grid solar photovoltaic power system for my home. Greetings from Madang, Papua New Guinea.
I'm interested in their products too. (Not home use though.)
There was some recent unpleasant happenings where you live.
Has everything calmed down?
Stay safe.
Matt we really like your videos, very clear and well explained. We are Enphase Platinum installers in the Yucatan Peninsula and all our clients with batteries were sooo happy to have them when Hurricane Beryl knocked out power in the region and you are absolutely right about the safety of LFP chemistry, the excellent 15yr warranty and the all-in-one app. Keep up the great content!
I like the modular approach because you can move, add or remove them if needed. They’re also portable if we needed to bring power with us or help someone else out
The Enphase stuff is fairly good, I put them on the same bench as the Tesla PW3 (but not the earlier Tesla PW1 or PW2, which didn't have LFP batteries). However, the Enphase batteries and inverter sizing are about 4 years out of date. They don't provide enough storage and the inverter-v-storage ratio is skewed the wrong way. You don't need 24 individual inverters across your four batteries for reliability. That's just nuts.
The 20 kWh of storage you have is not a whole lot of storage for doing anything other than load-shifting. Keeping storage margins intact for power failures and for decent load shifting eats up a surprising amount of storage. And while storm-watch style smarts sounds convenient, it is highly non-deterministic relative to actual power failures because not all power failures occur during a storm.
Same with "smart" EV chargers set to utilize only excess solar for charging. The lack of determinism makes the reality less useful than it seems on paper, particularly in winter.
SOC (state of charge) based automation is also usually a big fail when it comes to LFP batteries. The reason is that SOC cannot be estimated from voltage with LFP batteries, so SOC tracking has to be done by counting electrons (aka amp-hours in and out) and that gets way off over time. I strongly recommend not depending on SOC-based automation. If you intend to anyway, then ensure that your storage system is regularly charged to 100% because that is how the SOC is recalibrated.
-Matt
@@junkerzn7312 What would you recommend instead of SOC? 🧐
There is no issue with charging EV with excess solar other than the fact that the charger in the car is the most effective at it's designed speed, while you are usually going a lot slower than that. And in winter there is no excess solar at all, so you have to switch to different strategy.
My LFP batteries are usually charged to 100% multiple times a week. Basically each sunny day means full charge. And I have an automation checking if there was at least a single full charge in last 7 days which forces the full charge if it doesn't find any.
@@tomas_klouda In your case you clearly have enough excess solar to not have to worry about it a whole lot, though that might be different in winter. Generally, though, what I do for my excess solar is have an automation that starts dumping it once the battery voltage hits an obvious 99%+ value (56.8V).
For the stop point, I usually use the float voltage (54.0V), which will still be 99% SOC when coming down from a fully charged voltage.
Since my dumps are well in excess of my solar generation, what happens is that the main battery bank oscillates between 99% and 100% while the sun is out.
You can also combine that with a timer. So, for example, you start the dump at 56.8V and reset the timer whenever the voltage hits 56.8V, then let the dump run for a specific period of time, such as 4 hours. That winds up being "start dumping when the battery is full and don't stop until 4 hours after sunset".
Yet another method is to have the dump be a smaller secondary battery system. Store excess energy in the secondary battery system, then exhaust the entire content of the secondary battery system at a more opportune time (such as during the evening peak or overnight), depending on the application... with however much energy the system had collected during the day.
-Matt
@@junkerzn7312 Yes, I usually have enough energy since April till October.
My only dump load is hot water tank and I rather use that electricity more efficiently 🤷♂️
In case EV needs charging I send it there but otherwise I have no other big consumer.
Voltage is not very useful with LFP if I am not mistaken. Yes, you can detect full battery, but not much else...
I rather try to use the energy before it even enters the battery as much as possible, so full battery in my house usually means I have already sent energy everywhere I could and there is no dump load available anymore. For this I need reliable detection of how much energy I already stored in the battery to know whether I have enough in case sun would stop shining and when I have enough (50-60%) I start sending it to opportunistic consumers like EV and then hot water tank.
@@tomas_klouda I'm in the same boat excess-energy wise, but I don't spend a lot of time trying to optimize my EV charging beyond (roughly speaking) just plugging it during daytime once or twice a week when I happen to be home.
I like the "secondary dump battery" approach the best because I can schedule the loads to run at more opportune times and have smaller loads run longer instead of having to find "large" loads to offset the much larger excess production wattage that occurs in real-time.
And it gives me a 24-hour buffer to mess around during which I know the entire excess generation will get soaked up by the secondary battery, before both systems fill up and the solar begins to curtail.
-Matt
@@junkerzn7312 sounds like a nice toy to play with, but batteries are still pretty expensive => it makes economically no sense to invest in secondary battery system.
It only make sense if you need the autonomy.
I’m opposite on most of these decisions.
I would’ve gotten two Tesla Powerwall 3s, LFP chemistry, one ecosystem, string inverter (with warranty), for less money with better specs.
Just become available in the Uk and switching from a sigenergy proposal to the 3s .
Your videos are always fascinating and informative.
Thanks, Matt. I’ve had an Enphase system that I got before CA changed their Net Metering rules, but a year later hasn’t been installed yet. And that’s just the panels and microinverters. My head swims with battery options, but I need to lean toward grid-tie as 1.) I’ve got great rates for my contribution and 2.) I don’t have an electric car to charge yet. A lot to think about, but you’ve helped clarify it for me.
Thank you and good morning!!!
I still think buying a used Tesla model 3 and an aftermarket company making the equipment to use it as a backup battery is a better solution. I use my pickup as a battery backup, 212kwh battery would be absurd to buy in power wall batteries.
Yes, I have Subaru Solterra with a 72kw battery pack and unfortunately they don't offer any kind of inverter or reverse power options.. BUT that battery pack would power my house basics for 10 days in an outage and where power comes back in town quicker I could go in town to top off if needed and go another 5+ days.
One option I looked at is something like using a 1500 watt inverter on the EV to charge and maintain a Ecoflow Delta 3... that thing only has 4kw on board but it can output 4000 watts and 8000 peak so it can handle my low emergency usage (well, oil boiler for heat and hot water, fridge, and some lights) and the car inverter could top it off throughout the day.
I also just saw they make a generator specific for their battery that can generate 20kw off a grill sized propane cylinder... for how little power goes out, I could easily afford 3 propane bottles and have 60kw plus the built in 4kw yet still power a high spike well pump.
@@MtnXfreeride I’m lucky in that my truck has a 220 outlet so I just plug in my generator switch panel and done. All evs should do that
@@ckleinheksel if you can afford a power wall you can afford a garage big enough for a spare car. But using one of your daily driven cars is the goal so you don’t need an extra anything.
awesome as always Matt
Timely post, I have a telecom with my installer to discuss adding some ESS to my existing PV Enphase system with 31 Q-Cell 405-watt panels > IQ8A Inverters > IQ 4C Combiner Box. I was looking at Tesla PW3s but am now leaning towards the 5P. Being retired I'm on a budget so I'll likely start with an ESSENTIAL LOAD system to start and then ADD in the future. We have a finished basement that never gets warmer than 75F in the summer so in an outage in the summer we can hunker in the Bat Cave. we have gas heat so we are good there given the blower only uses about 500 watts ene running. We also OVERSIZED our PV system as well. Our annual consumption since COVID (when I was working from home) averaged 11,600 kWh, and my PV system produces 14,600 kWh (STC). Great video. Thanks
What pricing are you getting to add batteries to your Enphase solar? I also have 13 400 W panels as a second system on my home and ma exploring adding a Enphase battery to provide power during peak rates.
@@tontonn9995 With the 30% tax credit and my utilities $300 per kW CASH rebate my OTD is less than $18K about $4K less than a GENERAC 24K generator. So that 27 kH was worth $9100 as a CASH rebate from my utility. I get 27 kW and 180 LRA with 2 PW3s vis almost the same price for 3 5Ps. I was quoted $34K for the PW3s vs $30K for 3 5Ps. but 15 vs 27 kW made a huge difference in the utility rebate of $4500 vs $9100. And the PW3 has NO CYCLE limits.
That is a very neat and tidy install of top tier products. I appreciate you exposing me to this material. I understand how some folks are concerned about the product promotion part of this but, I feel that most of us can run that through the filter that one should use during information gathering. I’m going through a new home build right now and going through the same process. Thus, I find this video worthwhile. I don’t particularly care for Enphase but am impressed with the end to end interoperability of this system. The Span panel is on my “Nice to have” list. Not sure I could swing this whole system but it’s a nice benchmark
If those people had filters we wouldn't hear the incessant squealing every time they wet their pants.
Tesla Powerwall is LFP.
For the latest 3 version , not the earlier .
Matt, I added the Enphase batteries to my Enphase Solar about 1.5 years ago and about 1.5 years after my solar installation. The decision for Enphase was easy once you start with their solar. The app integrates flawlessly and the utility integration for selling power here in Rhode Island is fantastic. I am getting about $2000 payback each Summer. While I too am on a 5 year program for selling battery capacity to my utility, if they offer a similar program for an additional 5 years, they will have paid for my battery system. I would like to suggest to you that you consider sharing more of your battery capacity with the utility. I let them take my battery down to 10% without issue since they won’t tap my capacity if there is risk of an outage.
I am incessantly intrigued by the subject matter you present; and you present it well. Thank you.
Incessantly?
I know! I can hardly believe it, myself!
Loving the new visuals and music Matt! Can you make a video on how you rolled your own charge from excess solar using span?
Thanks, Ricky. I should probably make a short on how I rolled my own solution.
I love how every company and their kid brother is making home backup batteries now. I remember *years* ago thinking it’d be cool to have one of those Anker powerstations with 300 Wh of storage for camping at a convention. Now I can store enough to run my house on solar generation alone. Wild times we live in.
Regarding the sprinkler bit. They - those that make the regulation - do realize that water + lithium is not gonna be helpful, right? I'd argue that if you have a battery fire of any chemistry that contains lithium that you're house is gone if you try to extinguish it with water.
I put my solar system along with the batteries in a separate insulated shed away from the house. If it burns, so what. Its far enough from the house to keep the heat from igniting the house.
Sprinklers have two goals - Put out the fire is the obvious first. The second, and the arguably more important goal is not letting anything else catch on fire. Batteries will burn and there's very little anyone or anything can counter that energy release. But you can control where it spreads. And that's more important.
@@jemezname2259Then you wouldn't have fallen under that idiotic rule that dumps water on a battery fire. Doesn't matter the chemistry...water + electricity = bad idea.
@@jemezname2259 I don't understand why this isnt a normal thing to do. Most firefighters won't do anything but contain the fire if they see solar pannels
The whole permitting thing is a government run operation, thus it is not a cohesive, intelligent, well oiled start to finish process…In other words, it is a tangle of losers with zero knowledge, making rule for things they haven’t a clue about, stealing your tax dollars to impress the pee ons in the world.
Gm!
Thanks for the detail on the SPAN integration it was very helpful.
I've got the Span panel tied into Enphase with their junction box too. Make sure that Span's `Remote Meter Kit-Enphase` circuit is setup in the "Always On Circuits" section specified in the Settings and not just the "Backup" pages between nice to have sections. I learned the hard way when the power went out and the Span panel didn't know it had battery power to tap into. Nice... The only way to resolve was to call Span support which only after they changed something could I then put it into Settings->Always-on circuits.
I am Matt Ferrell, welcome to decided. This is cool. See you in the next one.
i like the old intro....bring that back
I'm a big fan of the EcoFlow modular system because it's so easy to expand as your need and/or budget grows.
I bought a 5.1 kWh EA Sun wall-mount battery (LFP, 51 VDC, 100 A-hr, $1500 w shipping). Amusing that the shipping box said "Power Wall". It looks slick next to my EG4 6000XP inverter. They suggested twice the battery (200 A-hr), but mine has been working fine, usually dropping no more than 50%. I can set the 6000XP how to charge (only from PV for me) and when to switch from PV to grid input each day (9p - 5a for me in Summer). Don't know if the battery will prove-out it's 6000 cycle claim and that would be ~20 yr life. Much less than the cost of a Tesla battery. Don't expect such high future utility payments. If such a deal, the utility would install their own battery backup.
I hate how ridiculous Massachusetts regulations make stuff like that, they are all in on being carbon neutral, but make it as hard as possible to actually make any of the changes to to reduce your carbon footprint, it's so counterproductive.
Boy you’ve got that right. It took me almost two years to get my system installed. National Grid and the state regulators were tough to deal with.
Baking in a 10% loss and thinking it doesn't matter because you just got 10% more panels sounds bad to me.
At the end of the day it's just an efficiency calculation. Depending on your viewpoint, solar panels lose an overwhelming majority of the energy that the sun puts into them. He said at the start that he considered it as acceptable for his setup for the sake of redundancy.
All these inverters and electronics have a standby loss too. Everything combined is a easy 100w standby loss. That’s a 100w for every second of the year and that adds up big time. The most I heard personally is a 5500kwh standby loss a year for a 30kwh battery pack with necessary electronics, but that was extreme.
So there is standby loss, efficiency loss when the batteries are charging and a loss when they are discharging. And of course a loss in converting the solar power to ac, but that’s a invisible loss. Everything else is a loss of power that could go into the grid and be used by someone else.
I do not see environmental benefits from this at all. I highly doubt there are financial benefits. I would argue a natural gas backup generator would be better in literally every aspect, including the environment.
@@autobootpiloot I have three Enphase 5P batteries configured in "full backup" mode. Their combined standby loss averages right around 900 Wh per day. Call it about 325 kWh per year. I find that entirely acceptable for what is effectively 15 kWh of online UPS capacity.
If I could put solar on my roof I would go with a high voltage battery like the LG Enblock S. That would be paired with the dcbel Ara DC/AC power manager/charger/inverter/everything unit. The Ara operatates at a higher voltage so it can charge cars with high voltage DC directly either fom a battery or panels without losses. It also handles V2H and V2G when you have a car that can do that. It's a very cool sytem and I hope it goes on sale in Texas soon. I beleive it is being sold in California and New York currently.
I put in a very similar system by Enphase and had a very similar experience. I love the system. I do wish Enphase would add the ability to plug in extra portable batteries if needed. They have the ability to plug in a generator, and electricity from a generator or a battery should be the same from an input standpoint.
Microinverters are great in theory. In reality, their benefits are marginal compared to the latest inverters. And the downside is you're putting more stuff on the roof, exposing it to harsh weather conditions and being more difficult to service when something goes wrong.
If one panel doesn't work the whole system wouldn't produce electricity though.
Also micro inverters have a warranty of 25 years compared to 10 years.
My inverter comes with a 10 year warranty. I'm not concerned. Also if you want the microinverter thing, you need to wire each panel in parallel as opposed to having strings.
Strings are wired separately, so if one of them goes bad, the others will still owrk.
Also you cant overprovision your inverter, putting more amperage on it than it can handle, which is useful in low light condition where your system will produce closer to its theoretical limit.
Since solar panels are dirt cheap, it's worth it to use a small inverter with more panels, if you've got space to put them up.
While that is all true, google the failure rate of Enphase iq7/8 micro invertors. From what I found it's an exceedingly low rate. If I remember correctly Enphase actually covers labor for warrenty replacement as well.
I think the bigger draw back is micros are just more expensive, and are less efficient with batteries. Would definitely go with a central if I was designing for batteries. But if you are going with a grid tie and aren't planning on batteries, Enphase micros are a solid choice.
Plus Micros require additional ac to dc conversion which is more inefficient. If you don't have any panel shading, a dc coupled system is more efficient
Disappointed the string inverters were discontinued. They were incorporated into the panels and replaced the blocking diodes. Apparently, there were code issues with fast enough grid disconnect. I have 30 kw of these panels, still going strong after seven years.
I'm not a fan of micro inverters mainly due to the fact most solar panel installers (both professionals and DIYers) install cheap ones without proper EMC filters and also badly lay out their DC cabling. One bad central inverter can already wreak havoc. But a bunch of micro inverters are often much worse. Many installations aren't in spec for the European EMC/EMF emissions as no-one actually measure emissions after an install and government isn't enforcing. Installation businesses have to work in cut-throat conditions to make a living, so they go for the cheapest stuff available. It makes (mainly shortwave and weak signals) radio reception almost impossible if you live near such cheaply installed panels. And good luck with neighborhood peace if you start asking questions about a bad install ...
Thanks Matt.
I am adding an EcoFlow Delta Pro Ultra with 2 batteries and smart panel 2 in a couple of weeks. I’m more interested in loss of power and vital services happening to my aging family, me included. I still work at 68 y/o and most outages occur when I am at work. I paid for mine with no financing and installation is very expensive here in CT. You get what you pay for, and the peace of mind that it’s installed and tested by a professional electrician. I can recharge the batteries with my inverter generator if the power stays out for longer periods of time, but it will recharge on its own if the grid comes back on earlier. I will see how the house usage of power will affect the battery backup time. My system will be nothing of the magnitude of the undecided household. Nice electrical planning and for-thought from the video you shot Matt. Enjoy your videos.
Please disclose how much they are paying you, thanks.
20k for the random “if we lose power” is such a weird investment…
Like hyper inflated medical insurance… but instead of not paying for your broken arm, you get to charge your phone.
20k to not give money to the power company, and have power when there is an outage on the grid. Sending back power to the grid from rooftop solar is quickly becoming not worth it at all, particularly as grid-scale solar ramps up and the grid gets oversupplied just when you have energy to give (on a sunny day when you are at work)
I hope you're a child who just hasn't started the math portion of your education yet.
Thank you. This was very timely. We have solar panels and use Enphase and I am really happy with the company so far. We have a local install company here in Denver called Namaste Solar and they give good advice and did a great job installing. We want to get batteries now and a charging station and I like your set up. Thanks again for this video.
Very nice helpful video. I'm not ready to go solar yet, but I want to have enough information to make good decisions when I do.
ANY battery is *far* less prone to fire than ICE vehicles. A sprinkler system for everybody who has an ICE vehicle - makes far more sense!
$23,000 in battery costs....that is almost 5 years of electricity cost at a $400 per month utility cost average.... It would be longer if your bills are lower and handing him the tax credit. Add it the solar panel ROI and the total ROI on this is just unfeasible. Why not just pump ALL your extra electricity to the grid and take the credit and scrap the batteries? These whole "zero emission" home settups to me fall in alignment with the same people who buy a CyberTruck.... its all just a status symbol and not about practicality
They offer free math classes and medication for ADHD if you ever get tired of being unhappy and confused.
he mentioned he wanted an emergency backup system for outages in the winter months.
@@marcpym5251 Do power cuts happen enough times for it to be an issue in the US?
Where I live in the UK, power cuts are very rare, maybe once every year or two, and in most cases, it's a blink of an eye power cut, which if you have a small battery system, would be more than enough to keep things running, the longest power cut I think I've ever seen over 45 years is around 40 mins, which ironically is around the same time frame I've seen for my internet connection.
@@paul1979uk2000 ya, because in the US there are a lot of suburban or rural communities so there’s a lot of space between homes. The more rural you are, the higher the chance it is you’ll get an outage every year. Also he lives in the north east which is pretty known for big snow and rain storms.
@@paul1979uk2000depends on where you live in the US. Our home is covered by an amazing public utility and outages are rare, but lots of other power companies have issues keeping the lights on. In our neighbor state, the for-profit power company does almost no maintenance, so outages are disturbingly common. They don't do anything till it breaks :'(
I installed an Enphase solar PV system last year on my house in Pismo Beach CA consisting of 16 REC modules (6.48 kW dc). This year I installed an Enphase battery system using 3 Enphase 5P batteries as a partial home backup and configured for max Savings mode. I have not gotten PTO yet but it looks like it should work well.
Your system is very very similar to the one I had installed. My battery capacity is sufficient to handle 3 days of power outage, including car charging, during peak-AC time. Between the system and the high efficiency heatpumps, the electrical bill went from ~150-450 a month to $19 a month. Getting rid of the inconsistency in our electrical bills is a huge help.
Graphene battery's are the future! I'm surprised not more people come to this realisation.
Correct. But still couple years or more away
In the meantime we had an LFP battery breakthrough that was better than lithium ion. Then now we have solid state which will be available on market next year.
Maybe work on proper grammar prior to predicting the future.
I'll take the field for $10,000.
Manufacturing is nuts expensive for now
Is the channel just product propaganda now?
Everyone has a price
It's the American way. When everything is a lease or a loan, free and/or subsediced stuff is super enticing.
He’s pretty much lost in all integrity.
Yes indeed , everyone has a prize.
Most of youtube now, All monetised!
As always interesting video. I went with a Tesla Powerwall 2 when we had the system installed, and sadly the last two storms, the Tesla storm watch was a bust, once it put us in the storm mode less than 15 minutes before the storm hit, and last night it never went in to storm watch mode. But since I have it, I am looking at adding another one to assure there is enough peak output ability to run the heat pump.
I did buy into the Delta Pro Ultra Ecosystem, and expanding to a second 6kWh battery was very easy plug and play.
No permits, and it only cost $800 to have the smart home panel installed within a single day.
Admittedly, I'm not expecting a return on investment beyond having some emergency power in an outage.
Recent winter storms made that requirement very clear.
I am also in a condo, so a traditional generator was not an option. Sadly, solar is also not an option.
All in all, with TOU rates, I am expecting to save ~$250/year with the setup. Not the priority, but certainly useful!
Thanks for the info
Yes, Enphase have decided to weigh into the market very competitively. Their batterys are VERY cheap for the known quality, and it can be hard to resist buying enphase even without an enphase teknosystem. With an enphase tekology you really are set up with redundancy, all out of the box, both with inverter and now battery. I wonder if Enphase have born thought to entering the most treacherous depths of the market: panels? I kinda think that enphase have positioned themselves to be able to now present entire system sets of different sizes to suit. And if they priced competitively again, then Tesla'd take a hit. Personally, I wouldn't touch Tesla, and haven't. I bought SAJ B2 10kwh + SAJ inverter.
I also live in MA (different utility) and basically went the total opposite approach. DIY 10kw (13kw panel) grid tied string inverter (100% net metering). I looked into batteries, but my utility didn't participate in the smart grid program so they made little sense for my application. Instead I bought a Ford Lightning ER (130kwh) and installed a critical loads panel for grid outage risk mitigation. Just goes to show you there are many ways to skin a cat and "your mileage will vary" is so true in solar. My paperwork for approval took ~3-4wks, but another data point is my employer has been waiting >8 months to get approval to add 4 more EV chargers.
I know everybody likes the microinverters, but IMHO this only makes sense with multi-pitch roofs requiring small arrays. Not only does the cost add up quickly, the proposition (relative to string) becomes even worse for large (>10kw) total panel count. By my count your total system has 75 micro inverters between the panels and the batteries. I would be concerned that probability will eventually catch up with you and again.....(your mileage will vary)......there's a good debate on single source of failure vs. redundancy risk tolerance stack up.
Really nice presentation Matt!! I've had an SMA string inverter with just under 7K of Sharp solar panels for about 14 years. I've added 10 additional Sharp panels using Enphase M190s andM250 inverters. The system provides most of my yearly KWH needs. I also have some battery backup, 11 KWH of LifePo4 DIY battery feeding a 6KW inverter for most of the house loads. I've been considering expanding the storage and thought about going all Enphase but the new battery does seem outdated already. I would like to have all Enphase inverters though since I do have morning and afternoon shading. A couple of V3 Tesla power walls may replace my current setup with expandability. I also have a model Y so charging during the day when the utility CO is paying me .08/kwh makes sense . We do have TOU here in SE Michigan so more battery does make sense.
Thanks for all your hard work with these productions.
A friend of mine is building a "local start-up" Cloud Server Farm for a bunch of suburbs in a limited locale (Australia nbn, ISP optical fibre to the home). He needed a "Uninterruptible Power Supply" and the computer industry tendered costs to him, at a price of nearly $100,000. His business is in a small office building. I told him he can use the "Solar Battery Tech" without having solar panels at all. It ended up costing him a 1/3 of the price that what the computer UPS guys were selling. A few desktops, some emergency lighting, and all the servers. Blackouts in Australia are very rare.
Nice video Matt! I’ve been a long time solar installer and I would have chosen the same approach! Great explanation for the masses.
Adding to the permitting nightmare, the sprinkler systems is useless in a battery thermal runaway event anyways! Hopefully laws and mentalities change overtime to help families not add unnecessary roadblocks.
I have 33KW of the older Enphase batteries.
I wanted to get more this year. I went to get quotes on the newer Enphase batteries and they told me that I could not mix the older batteries and the new batteries.
Let's just say I was not happy at all.
There are a lot of advantages of the Enphase batteries if you have Enphase inverters but someone has completely dropped the ball by not designing them to work together in the same home.
I went with Franklin batteries which was not what I wanted to do.
My point is, you better purchase all the Enphase batteries you think you are going to need for the next 20 years because you don't know if the newer batteries will be compatible with what you have. And BTW, you won't be able to purchase the older model anymore when the new ones come out.
Now I am worried about replacement parts for my version.
For those of you wondering how I'm doing that. I have 2 200 AMP panels. I have 2 separate solar systems connected to each one of the 200 AMP service panels and 1 battery system connected to each of the 200 AMP panels.
It would be really cool to see a house design integrating all the technologies for what you think is the right net zero cost to ease of maintenance and returns. Your videos are awesome.
Thanks for a great and interesting video Matt
Endless thanks for your hard work and dedication, Matt, your pragmatic, logical approach to emerging tech is a HUGE bonus to many of us out here.
After doing a solar deep-dive, we opted for the Enphase micro inverters on each panel. The system redundancy makes sense considering I’ve seen plenitudes of main inverters fail in my career, and the short warranty life seems to only just pass. Manufacturers don’t want anything to do with the customer after this period. The Enphase battery redundancy also makes sense. Apart from price, the system quality, reliability and customer service, makes it a top tier home energy generation product
I'm excited by the "hybrid" inverter systems coming out that allow the inverter and batteries to be installed outside next to my panel. It's a no-brainer when the battery prices drop 50%
this feel like getting a glimpse into the future. hopefully some day
Thanks for coverage on your issues with permitting.
I would love to see a video from you on solar panel cleaning and maintenance. As a new solar power person myself I am left wondering how often they need to be cleaned to maintain peak efficiency. Is there a tell tale sign in production that would tip me off or am I just left with eye balling the panels to determine they are dusty enough to need it? That sort of video would be great! Love all your content thus far btw. You were a big help in my planning and implementation of my power solutions.
GREAT VIDEO. I LIKED THE FINANCIAL DETAILS OF THE SYSTEM WHICH IN MY CASE DIFFER SIGNIFICANTLY BECAUSE I LIVE IN GREECE
@jeddyjames-tv9dc HELLO
I realize this is not for everyone unless you have the technical ability, but I built my own battery system with 64kWh of storage for $12k. It blows my mind how expensive these consumer systems are. Price needs to come way down.
Good System, well done.
😊thank you for the transparency. Also have you considered adding a vertical wind generator to the system?
In Australia I have Enphase microinverters and a Tesla battery and am very happy with them.
Thanks for the work that you do. I look forward to your videos. I was wondering if you looked into StorEn’s Vanadium Flow Cell Batteries. They are in the start up phase and haven’t been brought to market yet. I think their supposed safety and reliability seems amazing.
We have a home on Curacao, where the electrical utility is less than reliable, expensive, and where there is more than enough sunshine. When we move there full-time, we'll be installing a full off-grid capable solar set-up with enough battery to go at least 2 days without drawing from the grid. The hard part right now is researching what is available, since most of the suppliers in NA don't sell into the Caribbean. If anyone reading here has done something like this, I'd be interested in your experience.
Nice, but I don’t live in your area so I DIY mine. I added to it when I could afford it and chose to be off grid, so I didn’t have to wait for permitting or permission for anything.
I think my favorite system today is the Apollo, if I didn’t know anything about making my own system. These have good battery storage and massive solar potential.
the thing with modular systems that people probably dont realize is "you can technically use them for long distance bike rides"
to explain, you can charge them at home, then turn around, and put one in a backpack and have enough juice to go on an epic that spans america, and then come home and probably still have power left over.
Enphase 4th-gen IQ storage product comes to market in early 2025. WIth a smaller form factor, 10KWh cells, fewer and more powerful microinverters with GaN chipsets. Higher charge density and a lower ASP. I too wish Enphase would go with stackable cells. 5th-gen IQ storage maybe!
I have a bit of a different approach. I have an Enphase 13.2 KW Solar Systems and my plan is to wait for the EVs with bidirectional charging support (similar to cybertruck powershare, f150 intelligent backup). But these new modular options Eco flow and anker are really enticing.
I think that a few dc power outlets per housing unit should be a norm. Like USB-C PD but with more power. To avoid the loss of converting DC to AC to DC again from solar to batteries etc.
Here in Australia the power companies are talking about charging people with solar for exporting the excess power to the grid. Apparently, they failed to account for the amount of power being exported and have to upgrade the grids to handle it.
My local inspector only cared about a missing junction box on the roof that was supposed to tie all the solar panels together before going down into my home. Tesla spent 2 weeks explaining that that box was a mistake on the plans and was unnecessary for the final layout of my panels. It was another example of ridiculous regulations enforced by ignorant inspectors who loosely follow "rules" that make no impact on the safe use of these products. Four weeks later and nothing was changed for the final inspection except for the removal of a second cut-off breaker in my garage that was not on the original design. Mind you that that second breaker would have made my system infinitely more safe by allowing me to cut the system from the grid faster then having to run outside and flip the utility-accessible cut-off! Maddening.
Damn inspectors inspecting and requiring every single thing on the plans is...
...Awesome.
Blame Tesla for screwing up instead of the inspector or state for not spending millions training every inspector on every manufacturers system.
@@ericmaclaurin8525 The inspector first left the premises because the ladder to the roof was not ready for him to climb. He just up and left even though the Tesla employee was rushing to get it off his truck. Sorry, but these guys are just ego-driven morons.