Feeling Cheated By CMON? What You Can Do About It
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- Опубликовано: 4 авг 2024
- BoardGameCo Patreon - / boardgameco
CMON Is Evil - • CMON is EVIL!
Why I Don't Care About The CMON Drama - • Why I don't care about...
Hey look, we have drama around a CMON campaign.
Another day, another drama. Marvel Zombies has some of the most expensive shipping we've seen in a kickstarter campaign. And people aren't happy.
TimeStamps:
0:00:00 - Introduction
0:00:25 - I've Always Had An Interesting Relationship With CMON
0:01:15 - What This Video Will Cover
0:01:42 - What's The Actual Situation Right Now?
0:02:10 - Shipping Is Bonkers
0:03:30 - 2 Pages Of Legal Contracts
0:04:50 - Shipping Should Be Expensive
0:07:50 - The 3 Things That Bother Me
0:09:00 - Shipping Calculator & Accuracy
0:11:45 - It's Complicated
0:12:20 - Other Shipping Dramas Recently
0:15:22 - What Does This Mean For CMON & Crowdfunding
0:20:50 - What Can You Do Now?
0:26:05 - Extra Hydra Troops Available To Buy
0:26:35 - Wrapping Up
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I will be backing things at a dollar level from now on. As someone that lives in Australia you can imagine how much more the shipping here can end up.
Agreed. I live in Uruguay and for example, for the all in pledge of Ankh I paid between shipping and local taxes around 700 USD above the all in pledge value. If you want to play the game, you should know first the rules. Should I do it again? No. Maybe next time (after Zombicide and Massive Darkness 2 arrives, as I have also purchased them)I'll purchase the game with an US adress and travel to US to obtain it.
@@diegoorrego5898 Even then you may have to pay Import taxes if the value of the imported thing exceeds a certain value.
Yeah. I’m US and I still wait for a PM to put any money in to something. Shipping has been crazy for a while now and I want to know my total cost before I commit. Shipping has to be part of that decision these days, not just an afterthought. I imagine it’s way more important to factor in in other regions.
CMON will never get my money until I see the actual shipping in the pledge manager. So, yeah, $1 pledges from now on.
Yeah, I'm in New Zealand, and with shipping the all in pledge will cost me NZ$2,000. I know it's a lot of content, but that's insane. $1 pledges for me from now on.
I am really starting to avoid games with a ton of plastic. Beyond the ridiculous costs of shipping and the inflated cost of the game, I am struggling with shelf space and could probably spend the rest of my life painting minis. Glad I skipped this one.
Yep, we keep getting more and more reasons to skip on these.
Yeah, once you have enough plastic to paint you don't need more so these types of games go way down in value. I don't understand anyone who doesn't want the minis to paint buying this...
@@lucky6666 I don't paint anything. I actually prefer the natural state and uniformity of the colored plastic. Besides that, I get these types of games because I enjoy the emersive nature of miniature games. I'm happy for all the painters out there excited for the Marvel IP. But I'm just in it to play it.
@@dougcerulli8826 You should give painting a try it's very soothing and when you manage to make it look ok it will fill you with pride to play with them
This is the reason why I prefer standees over minis. Standees can look really good, just look Uprising. Also Eldritch Horror looks great too with standees.
You like coffee as much as I do. Enjoying a cup right now watching you ramble... which I also love! I'm in the third camp- no horse in this race, I just watch all your videos. I also really respect how you do these in one long take. Thanks Alex, you are awesome!
Thanks Scott :) Much appreciated :)
They basically did this for Ankh too, the additional exclusive box doubled the shipping estimate. I paid 70$ can for it, which was ridiculous and double any game I've ever backed. Ankh was my last CMON at that point.
Yep, there's nothing new here, it's more of the same
I watched the video just to watch because I follow you. Good too learn regardless for any future Kickstarter projects I may back. this was the first year I've ever done so. I hope the ones I did back don't end up with crazy surprises like this.
Dang, that was really good. Like a great podcast.
I’m hooked till part 2!!
I'm so glad I watched this --- I didn't realize if you backed at the dollar level you could change it later. There's so many of these kickstarters that I'm honestly not inherently excited about and I don't think I should ever have to talk myself into spending money. At the dollar level, it at least gives me a few months to mull it over and/or if life changes in the time since the kickstarter closes...
Stopped backing CF campaigns years ago. I am able to buy games after they have actually been finished and can cherry pick the best of the bunch rather than roll the dice only to be disappointed in so many released in a pre alpha state. I may pay more for individual games, or not depending on how patient I am on the secondary market, but it saves me in the long run in not wasting my time on shovelware products that I am not happy with playing. The ever increasing big box prices cannot continue to go up forever, there is a bubble here that is going to burst.
@@zenster1097 crowdfunding
@@zenster1097 'crowd funded' as there is no longer just one one the block anymore
In the UK, Kickstarter decisions are also about investigating the taxes as well as the shipping as it all adds up to increase the initial pledge.
Thank you Alex for the video. I have back three CMON games now and it always hurts seeing the shipping price in the pledgemanager, especially the Marvel Zombiecide. For larger campaigns (not just CMON), I think i will invest a dollar unless I am 100% sure this is what I want.
Alex, I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on the extra hydra troops. How are you planning to use yours? Will they have an in-game use if they aren't coming with any cards?
Thanks Alex for creating this video and providing some good advice. I actually filled out the refund form but after watching your video and reviewing the stretch goals again. I decided to downgrade to the undead pledge and get a few expansions instead. Luckily the single shipping came to $62. The way I viewed it, for $62 you'd get around 74 figures/content isn't a bad deal.
After this I won't back another CMON campaign since I do feel that they dropped the ball and they won't learn unless backers speak with their wallets.
Again great video and keep up the great work.
Thanks Kyle. And ya, I'm a huge fan of voting with your wallet.
Great video Alex! Completely agree with all of your points, and I'm right there with you in the "this sucks, but it's also the world we live in right now."
Yep, sad reluctance is where I'm at.
Due to the combination of shipping, VAT and exchange charges, the costs of the base pledge has literally doubled. I only made a £1 pledge so I need to decide, do I 1- get the base pledge with stretch goals, 2- wait for retail and get the resistance box with the money I've saved, but no stretch goals or 3- skip it and save my money for a new campaign (blood rage 2) as I already have the KS version of Black Plague?
Perhaps I'm the crazy one here, but I have never paid anything close to $140 to ship anything. ANYTHING. Sofas, refrigerators, washing machines. Why do you stand for it?
I can move house for less than the all-in pledge shipping.
Alex, Thank you so much for the video.
I have owned small companies shipping from US to international and from China to international. I also have experience with assisting to run Kickstarter campaigns.
I am moving to New Zealand and renting a container (US to Asia twice and now the prices are double after Covid).For my Marvel Zombies US800 game content I am getting I am paying US520 for shipping.
Yes, shipping costs is high, but I buy online daily and internationally enough to know that these are probably still lower than the actual costs. So yes, it is possible CMON is actually losing money on shipping; which is not uncommon for crowdfunding campaigns to factor this into their total costs.
I am fortunate enough to justify all these costs for this game, but I absolutely feel terrible for backers that are slapped with double or even triple CMON estimates. The disturbing feeling of CMON (who has run 50 campaigns) either did not do their due diligence on shipping estimates OR worse, intentionally lowering the estimates to lure people into backing their project in the first place. Double or triple costs for shipping in a 2 month period just did not happen in the real World. It just leaves a bad taste with bad business ethics and practice.
Yep, 100% across the board.
Hi Oliver, as someone who live in NZ and plan to drop the campaign, can I play the marvel zombie with you?
Oh man! Definitely!
I need to find a gaming group in NZ!
It was painful for sure--it's even more expensive in California. I opted to go for single wave shipping because I have enough games to play between now and its arrival, but I do hope that CMON and other companies will present even more conservative estimates for shipping in the future.
Thanks Alex, this was very helpful! I appreciate you putting this together, I am extremely excited for this game!
Telling my wife of shipping costs will still not be a smooth conversation 😒 😂
Yep...sorry 😔
Hey Alex, thanks for covering it on your channel and giving your insight on the situation. To me it's not just about the question if the game is worth it to me, but do I want a high discrepancy of shipping between campaign phase and pledge manager to become common practice in future campaigns. All I can do to prevent that is to (politely!) voice my complaint and vote with my money. I would also like your opinion on cmons handling of this higher shipping cost. Or better, the lack of it. For example not offering solutions for backers like collecting shipping at a later date or offering left over shipping costs as a credit, in case the shipping rates fall (as they are projeted to do). And also cmon not offering backers the option to gradualy increase their pledge and keeping the pm open for a longer period of time or reopening it between shipping phases, as other publishers have done. All of that would help backers mitigate monthly expenses on an expensive product.
Were you referring to the recent Hanamikoji/Geisha's Road KS? I almost backed that, now I'm glad I didn't! Same with Marvel Zombies, it turns out... I was on the fence through the whole campaign which I decided meant that I didn't need it. I would've been quite displeased with the additional shipping costs.
Does anyone know if I do not enter anything in the pledge manager, would CMON not be able to take my money from the pledge? Doubtful I can get the refund since CMON is notorious for not replying to emails.
I don't get it : why is it interesting to buy the $20 pack of 14 extra hydra troops, when you can get a second duplicate add-on for an additional $30 and get, in addition to those same extra 14 hydra troops, a duplicate of everything else in the box + the bonus 2 exclusive kickstarter heroes and zombies?
Did I miss something regarding this $20 pack being way overvalued?
The video we backers didn't want, but the video we needed. Thanks for this.
Appreciate it
P.S. love you and thank you for the video...as always 🙂 ❤
Thanks :)
I backed at the Resistance level, getting both core boxes. It is already expensive as it is. Thought about adding expansions but how much am I going to be playing this game? I have Dead or Alive coming, do I need another Zombicide game?. The shipping is twice what was on the campaign. And then there's VAT (which I knew was coming). $140 total. Should I really be spending so much money on a single game? I am considering asking for a refund or simply downgrading my pledge. I can afford it but then: What can I do with $350 instead?
Really enjoy your content Alex, thanks for all you do for the community. You going to gencon?!?
Thanks! And yes
Fair video as usual. Nice approach. I'm in the camp of I wouldn't have done it. I reevaluated it and thought about just getting the base game and it was $198 to California. It just isn't worth it to me. I know it would hold its value and I could sell it, but I don't particularly like dealing with selling games. On the shipping cost, the only way I can see that CMON gets to those prices is by including the container cost from China to make a 'full cost of shipping' number. I can't see a core only box costing ~$70 to California from a stateside hub. I ended up requesting a refund.
In the past I either pledge for the game to support the campaign (add-ons I add on pledge manager to evaluate shipping costs) or not at all (not even $1).
I guess campaigns will force backers to lock the pledges early and charge shipping sometime later after this point (e.g. currently Academy Legends and Agemonia pledge managers don't charge shipping costs). It's very unfortunate for backers when estimates are not accurate.
The MonPoc shipping did something similar although not as extreme as this apparently. I stopped backing CMON awhile ago, mostly for their creeping add on syndrome when backing their earlier projects, but with these shipping costs, I'm more glad than I already was that I had done so.
When I helped out with shipping at a prior company, we were charged for 'volumetric weight' from some carriers which means the shipping for a light but large box could cost more than a much heavier but smaller box. No idea if that applies here at all, but it may be part of it.
All those minis are horribly inefficient to store, pack, and ship. They may be $5 to make, but giant mostly-empty boxes are evil when shipping container space is at a premium. That's why WH40K always ships flat boxes you have to build.
They're selling $3 of plastic in a big $30 retail box. Cheap shipping is the only thing that's enabled this behavior for so long.
I confirmed without even thinking about it, so I had to go back and check what the difference was. I had gone with the undead pledge because I figured I could get the x-men core retail but still would get the stretch goals specific to it with the undead. Looks like I am paying $25 more shipping than estimated which Isn’t too bad considering how much I am getting in stretch goal minis.
I have to say that the point on "just get another core box" is ridiculous. Set aside that the $130 should also cover the SG (although we know that it is not just coming from those funds, but distributed across many factors). Backers we should not be "punished" in a about 50% cost of a game in shipping for supporting the company or face the two other options of either wait a year (assuming normal KS delays) after it gets to retail to get to play this OR buy the game twice if you want to play it in a timely manner.
I am not saying that shipping should be free for the single box, but having this price is just a joke, also all of their shipping prices are extremely front loaded. I can add 7-10 Galactus to my cart and I will pay for those 7-10 the same as I will pay for ALL-IN pledge. So while I understand that this gigantic plastic is heavy and expensive, their calculation is not based on volume of weight as much as on is this your first galactus? OK $70, is this your 2-9th one ok $20 ... this is illogical to me
I think the fundamental thing about this is in crowdfunding, backers are taking over most of the risk of the project. In small cases, it’s just about feeling good that you made something happen that couldn’t otherwise. But in big projects with big companies, we really need to think harder about why we are accepting that deal, what we are gaining in exchange for taking the risk, and what more we need to demand from the companies that are taking our money.
I think the board games side of crowdfunding has been fairly blessed for a while now, compared to how frequently disasters like this happen in other categories. I think a lot of us are just now realizing the risks are not just hypothetical.
We need to demand more, not just in terms of value vs retail pricing, but I think in terms of transparency. I think it’s fair to expect more transparency and honesty than we have been given so far. When you invest in a company, it’s considered due diligence to look at their budget, how much are they paying for this and that, how much is profit. When you invest in a Kickstarter game, everything is imaginary, from funding goals to “free” “stretch” goals to “subsidized” shipping. It’s time to grow up.
In this case, bare minimum, CMON needs to give some real accounting over how it is that the shipping costs doubled in 3 short months.
I absolutely agree.
Crowdfunding does depend on the backers trusting (or believing in) the creators. It's a brave, and quite possibly foolish, creator who takes that trust for granted and erodes it. Once the trust is gone, there are no backers.
I just made my own comment. I also mentioned transparency. Thats the biggest disappointment. I'm paying high shipping and I'm gonna probably get the game close to the same time as retail. I went with the core box and a few add ons. Yeah theres stretch goals, but we'll see if its worth the extra $80.
How much do you think the KS promo box is worth on the 2nd hand market? Think it can cover the shipping cost?
Cover what cost? Shipping alone? Potentially but certainly not a guarantee. I know that every cmon Kickstarter will hold its value, but I'm not confident enough to say how much on each one
I wonder if since I want the resistance pledge, maybe I just get the core box to get the stretch goals and then pick up the X-Men box at retail? I think that is coming to retail...
The plan is for it to come to retail....as always there's the chance it doesn't, hence the fomo.
With Nemesis Lockdown being $150 on minimart I question marvel zombies core boxes being $80 at retail. I’m doing the resistance pledge since I think msrp on these might be closer to $150, which means $120 on minimart. Maybe I’m wrong, but we’ve seen retail pricing climbing so I’m just going to order it now.
My estimate to UK worked out to be 105usd originally when taking into account the pledge shipping, my addons shipping plus vat for the game and shipping. Ended up being 130usd so an increase for sure but I'll clock it up as a loss & move on and wait for a very cool game.
Thanks for the well thought out commentary.
Absolutely
I think the problem is that shipping costs for the base pledge (core box) is double what the estimate was on their campaign page... just 3 months ago! My quote is $80 for the core box alone (with the stretch goals box) for one wave shipping, compared to $130 cost of pledge. At that point, why not just sell the stretch goals and let the backers pick up the base game at retail?
Just to add, estimate was $32-46... and I can add additional pledges for $9 for up to three core pledges (so it looks like they have a high basic handling fee). Also, I just back projects with shipping estimates due to the current situation on shipping, so this doubling of estimates over three months is bad practice imo. I wouldn't have backed the core if it had no estimate and now I'm stuck paying more or asking for a refund and losing 10%.
I've been waiting for the Middara late pledges to open this month, but rumor has it the shipping is going to be painful. Whether I go all-in or not purely depends on what the shipping prices will be - and based on this CMON situation, I'm not getting my hopes up.
Definitely doing $1 going forward for CMON. I can see them pivoting to exclusive items if you back x,y,z pledged level. Then $1 pledges either can't get it or have to pay extra. Shipping is making kickstarter less feasible with each campaign.
Lets see if they ban 1$ pledges in the future ;)
I've been a majority $1 backer for many years now, and this just made me feel better about my approach. Exceptions are when I worry whether a campaign that I believe in will cross the line (like SHEOL), if I want to get a limited early bird deal they have, or if it's a campaign from the town I live in and i just want to support them (I'm a sap, but w/e), or if it's obvious that they won't be doing a PM
390 bucks shipping from China to South East Asia for me… the math just doesn’t add up…
Ya I'm confused by the way it's more expensive there....
my understanding is bad... based on what I read from Hanamikoji KS, who explained why US gets used to lower prices. is that your product will get shipped from China to US first. then later shipped to SE Asia. That's why we suffer higher costs always. US tends to get the 2nd best shipping costs after China / HK / Macau.
I didn't back anything on KickStarter in two years because I feared the shipping price.
That's reasonable. Money saved.
I'm glad that I've skipped this campaign because the final price for the All-In with shipping to me (Estonia) and taxes is above 1k$. It's something insane. I'm definitely not counting to have to pay another 400$ when already backing the 600$ in the game
As always, this is a very thoughtful take, Alex.
Thanks Alex for the advice! Is there a reason you suggested adding multiple Undead pledges instead of higher pledges? Kind of wondering which can be sold for more as I have some more credits after downgrading. Thanks in advance!
I believe the stretch goals are the best value - in terms of amount of miniatures and content so but getting the base undead pledge gives you the SG per base game.
¡Buy more from cmon that will show them!
You commented about the e-sign thing that had not happened before in Kickstarter. RUclipsr LegalEagle recently talked about issues with online signatures in a video. E-sign user agreements. I wonder if he might have some comments into this.
Thanks for doing a good and fair video on this issue. You walked a razors edge very well and if CMON punishes you for it, that will be sad. It was a very fair look at it from both sides of the problem.
Looks like I'm getting out of Kickstarter projects as soon as I got into them. Will fulfill my current pledges but that be it. I'm now a part of the cult of the now which enjoys free shipping and I'm at level 9 at cool stuff so I get a sweet discount on that also. Too bad.
Yep, it's a reasonable choice.
Love the positivity of this video. I agree that you shouldn't let the shipping prices sour your experience if you were going to pay them anyway (this describes my boat).
In any case, I started KS with late pledging MUX. And now I'm already completely done with KS. Just not for me. But I don't regret my KS "binge", it's been a fun experience, and as a huge marvel fan, I'm grateful I had it when I did.
MU/MUX and MZ are the two KS projects I'm most excited about.
The new content for TMB along with the Trove Chest cost $10 shipping. TMB is much heavier and larger box-wise. Right now, I’m still in shock. If CMON would’ve been upfront about shipping prices, I would’ve been able to better weigh my options and decide whether or not to invest. Lesson learned. No one forced me to back it and now I know.
I didn't end up backing this one, but I think the low tier and 2 wave shipping (you mentioned) things are the ones that make me feel like people are getting screwed, $50 for 1 core box and probably 1-2 boxes in stretch goal addons is crazy. I just finished backing three campaigns, One that will probably have a similar amount of boxes (2-3 Sleeping Gods New tier), shipping was around 16. And also Wayfarers of South Tigris (which will probably just be one box) came in around $9.
But I also have a theory for CMON, that the backers are paying the entire cost of the container because there are so many backers, that the entire shipping container is for this campaign. Often game publishers get to do a larger run than the campaign, and that will sit around for surplus for retail (for the next X months/years), so it isn't justified for them to charge the cost of the whole container to early backers, but in this case I think the entire container (maybe even 2 required) is for this campaign.
$410 for the Galactus pledge? Forget shipping, I need to figure out who's willing to pay that money for two core boxes and a huge mini. The problem is not CMON, the problem is people willing to pay this and enabling these ridiculous prices.
"A fool and his money are soon parted"
Galactus is why I didn't back. I'm glad I passed. Keep putting these crappy weights in, so I won't spend money on this crappy company
As always. Same kind of people destroyed the video game industry.
You said shipping prices are increasing, but that hasn’t been my experience this year. I’ve noticed a slow decline in shipping costs. And since the shipping for this is months (if not years) out, it undoubtedly will get even cheaper as freight costs drop and fuel prices stabilize.
Do you mean shipping personally or freight shipping?
Prices for freight container shipping have dropped 12% since the campaign and are trending down and that’s a fact when you look at the world container index and the Chinese container index tracking which track these prices.
@@fubarbox Exactly, I've also read an article about this. If the shipping prices get to normal in times Marvel Zombies ship, what will CMON do, I wonder.. probably nothing, just will get rich.. :-D
Container prices may have dropped but realistically there would be probably 2 big or 3 medium size boxes in total if you pledged for everything? Galactus alone would likely come in a separate box? That's a fair amount of total volume per pledge. My annoyance right now is with the sheer volume of some of what I get and the fact that there is a lot of empty space in the boxes. Marvel United X-men as well as the first Marvel United expansion boxes are mostly the insert. I realize there is a lot of efficiency in having similar dimensions on boxes but I would take stuff in a bag if it could be shipped safely to avoid all the boxes. I thought I had read somewhere that someone said that it is only $20 per expansion box if you divide it out but paying $20 to ship something that will get condensed and tossed seems a bit of a waste.
@@danielkaiser7245 Fact is they are charging me $69 for 1 wave and $118 for 2 wave for the base pledge only to Oregon...that is 2 boxes. That is overcharging while prices have done nothing but trend down since their campaign. Remember they do not pay retail shipping rates and they get discounts on shipping. It is sad when I can get the game cheaper (by about $60 with 2 wave shipping) from one of their retailr esell partners than I can by closing my PM. They charge retailers less than they charge us for shipping as well as the games at a cheaper price so retail can mark it up. They still make money by doing this. That is the sad reason why I can get my pledge for cheaper somewhere else. They are overcharging backers.
I honestly wish I had paid more for shipping for some of the other kickstarters I picked up. I've received some busted, damaged, bashed, opened at some point, and manhandled to the point the company had to replace. I went all in too and I figured the shipping was gonna be nuts.
"I don't think people understand how much they're getting." 100%! So glad you said this, it's needed to be said. So many drop $400+ on these games not realizing they are asking for 5 kallax boxes worth of game and then are surprised the price is so high when shipping is high when the most important factor in shipping right now is space you take up in a container.
I'm just after the core box and the shipping price is still eye watering.
@@TheSpacebeagle Very true. This is more of a general statement than one about this campaign in particular :)
Yep. 👏👏👏
Like you said in your video, though, since freight is based off volume, not weight, most of the goodness we're paying for is Chinese air, given the oversized nature of these boxes to look good on shelves
$15.
That's how much I'm paying for over 50lbs of CTG games.
I am in the group who never would have backed if I'd known. I really struggled with the price before I pledged, and didn't really understand how the $1 pledge worked, or I'd have gone that route. I've already put in a refund request. If I have to pay 10%, I'm looking at it as a learning experience. If you pledge at a higher level and drop it in the pledge manager, do they refund the difference? Do they still take 10% of the difference? I didn't even know you could do that, considering they've already taken all the money but the shipping. Trying to get it all back via Kickstarter is tempting, but I don't want to wait and risk them not coming through.
They refund 90% of any money you already gave them, And if you had left over after pledging it's 90% of the left over ammount.
@@malcolmdouglasmichaluk8263 Thanks for clarifying.
I kind of knew the postage was too low, the dimensions of the galactus thing was so huge. i didn't look at the pledge manager yet. not too excited about paying that much shipping but again i had a feeling this was going to be bad.
my shipping is $155 for the all in. i live a couple states away from you, kind of odd.
Interesting, I wonder if the rates are changing or that's state by state.
I think the bigger issue is the more than doubling of prices that were given as estimates in the same year in many regions without any breakdowns on why. Many pledges opt to collect closer to ship dates for each wave to have actual costs instead of poor estimates. I.e are we getting refunded if they are being too aggressive in their estimate? Probably not.
I only back at £/$1. The amount of times I simply don't now purchase the product is incredible. I realise I don't need it or that it doesn't float my boat or, even weirdly, there's just too much on offer by the time the pledgemanager opens up. I'm generally going right off crowdfunding though as a whole... I hate all the extras and the cost, knowing I'll likely never play through the base game never mind all those crazy adds. Then there's the waiting, often forgeting I even backed something or no longer being interested. I have boardgames on my shelf, loads of them, that I have yet to play so it's not like I'm going without. Doing all this, I've found I'm far happier and content.
Great video and chat as always, Alex. Love your stuff!
This whole thing has affected non-US backers the most with UK and EU backers depending on the blood level paying up to double if not triple with the cost amounting to almost an entire extra X-Men pledge. Not many games are worth close to $1000 and I wonder if this will affect C'mon going forward with potential X-Men United season three I hope that it does fasten to rethink everything. They have been king means of crowdfunding for quite a long time maybe it's time to take stock. I know from my pledge I am considering not even pulling through slimming at the one dollar that I've pledged (hoping didn't chase me for the rest).
I got my fingers burned with zombicide invader. While waiting for my KS to arrive, I went to the UKGE and it was on sale there, it was being pushed heavily by the asmodee (iirc) crew. I received my copy about 4 months later. The shipping fees were large, and that what put me off marvel zombies. Will wait till retail version hits.
Course, some campaigns are encouraging people to not dollar in by only providing the extras if you pledge during the campaign. The recent Unsettled did that, which was disappointing. I didn't want to do the full pledge, but instead just wanted a couple of the planets that I missed. But, I had to because I wanted the extras. Course, pledge manager isn't up yet, so I don't know what the shipping damage is yet.
I paid 35 dollars for shipping masters of the universe, this is with multiple expansions. It is supposed to deliver at the end of the year. I wonder if they are charging so much on zombicide to make up for what they are losing on masters of the universe?
I'd say it is very possible that they try to make up for a few past campaigns that they still need to ship for the current high costs.
I've been looking forward to this video ever since the bomb dropped earlier this week. :) First thought that came to mind was interest in Alex's thoughts.
Enjoyed as always, and agree pretty much across the board. Loved the 'if we put 100's of dollars into a pledge, this should be our worst problem'. Hehe
One thought on the cost for a single box: I just received Nemesis recently and bought an insert for it separately (DiceTroyers in this case). It was a little under $35 shipping from Italy. It was lighter than a core MZ box, and wasn't doing multi-phase shipping (China -> US -> Me). So a leap of $15 to ship a full box of game... Yeah, I get it. Don't like it, but.... Even some of the little bits that I tend to get from overseas (Poland, Czech, Italy, etc), it isn't cheap ($5 for 5 slime markers).
I think CMON may have decided to step back and go "here it is!". Again, as you said, not a great look for them in their.... presentation of it (all that legal stuff too, hehe). Not necessarily bad HANDLING, but rough presentation. It will be very interesting to see their next update on the project.
Thanks for the great breakdown, thoughts and insights!
I backed at the Hungry Pledge (the one just under the Galactus Pledge) and my one wave shipping was $66, 2 wave was $116. Having shipped and payed for a lot of overseas shipping, I understand the high shipping cost, but I don’t agree with the 2 wave shipping only one box for an extra $50. That’s a rip off
I am in the camp of I believe these are the actual shipping costs( 2-wave single box sketchyness aside) my frustration is the double cost than quoted. I will likely switch from 2 wave planned to single wave for similar cost to quoted. I think they were probably scared to put $300 price tag for shipping quote so they made the choice to deal with the fallout. I think knew the quoted prices were low. I will now enter the "For a dollar" camp. Good luck all! There is also a shipping discord channel created to possibly combine shipping with others in your area.
The whole thing is frustrating, I get it
I backed at the base pledge option with the mindset of adding the Guardians expansion in the PM. However the $50 shipping was enough to get me to skip the expansion. Its sad but Kickstarter stretch goals are worth the extra shipping price hike.
My issue with CMON is they are not a new kid on the block. They know what they are doing. I’m in the states and the shipping for just the core pledge was double than what they expected. That’s horrible and they should know better. Yes if you are going all in $140 isn’t devastating but $70 for single shipping for a core box is horrendous.
Very true. I feel the same.
The single box is what causes the outrage…absolute rip off
Yup
Agreed. I request a refund
@@ilqrd.6608 Yup 100 CAD shipping to split the wave. Galactus is $120 CAD just for shipping, so over $330 for his big ass. Haven't decided.
I’ve begun backing at $1- Hanamikoji was the one that solidified it for me, but the few games prior to that PM surprise that I backed were also at $1. There’s a couple of exceptions, but it also seems like campaigns that have been run this year are much less polished, much less certainly good than prior years
Ooof yeah, I saw that one. Shipping is more than the game right? I was in for $1 cause I want the playmat but that seems to have been put on the back burner
Ya, Hanamikoji bothered me more than this one....air freighting everything seems insane.
@@BoardGameCo They aren't doing that. They've changed things.
I'm looking at $80US shipping just for the base pledge, and so will be adjusting what I buy accordingly - I was potentially going to buy the second base game and two expansions. Now looking at one expansion at the most.
$300 Australian to get the base pledge delivered. Alternatively I could buy 3 to 4 games from my wish list. So do I want this, or Castle of Burgendy, Jaws of the lion, Marvel United X-men base game and Brass Birmingham.
I expect the base game will sell for $120 Australian free delivery - the question is are the kickstarter exclusives worth $180.
A big issue with Kickstarter is the “shipping” has changed from charges that seemed very similar to what you would expect to ship something similar yourself to something entirely different. Now it includes the cost of freight, shipping, and handling costs. Sure the company has to pay these costs, but if they were selling retailer, they would be eating all these costs (although actual handling and shipping will be somewhat less) as well as selling at wholesale and making a whole lot less in margin. I think that the bigger companies such a CMON are taking advantage of their customers. I haven’t backed a CMON product since the time when they were a really great deal and am glad I haven’t.
Exactly. The publisher needs to get the merchandise from the factory to their market anyway, if they want to sell it on retail. That's usually a cost that is factored into their MSRP (even if that term is meaningless in the context of Kickstarter), but now the customers are supposed to pick up that cost as well.
That is probably at the expense of the backers as well, why not just put all financial burden onto the backers and hold their money hostage. I mean what else are backers to do, if they can't get a refund, they'll either be out the amount for the pledge or pony up an extra 100-150 for shipping.
Gotta disagree here. I worked grocery retail as a price changer for a huge chain and we never ate any costs. EVERYTHING was passed on to the customer. We changed prices every Sunday, and you could track prices going up and rarely down as costs of labor and transportation fluctuated. It just wasn't as obvious, as prices were going up pennies per can on a weekly basis, and not a big push all at once. This is how capitalism works, always will, and always has.
@@freakyzed8467 you don't have an MSRP with groceries though, and if you did you would make sure what your wholesale suppliers/producers would sell to you at an appropriate price, regardless of how high the shipping from the factory to you is.
Like, you wouldn't buy Arizona Ice Tea for your store with their 99c price label if Arizona sold it to you for 70c + 35c shipping.
@@freakyzed8467 the issue is that the freight is normally absorbed in the cost structure of a retail offering. A consumer purchasing retail may pay shipping and taxes in addition to the retail price (which is often at a discount to MSRP). Now Kickstarter companies are comparing their price to the MSRP but moving the freight costs from inside their price structure onto the consumer.
Shipping to Vancouver Canada, core/undead pledge was $90 for single wave, $160 for 2 wave. (That's $120 and $200 Canadian, respectively)
Only games I back nowadays are the Garphill ones, the shipping is very low, you are just getting it a tad early + some promos, and they are very transparent about it.
I think we are looking at a different pledge manage I pledged the base box with stretch goals which works out $130 with tax, also I haven't read the two disclaimer things but I have been told that CMON will not replace stuff broken in transit. I will be a $1 pledge from now on.
Will CMON issue refunds if the costs of shipping goes down next year?
Hahaha
I'm in TN. My shipping is pretty much the same as yours. In general, I have the same feelings about it as you do, with one major exception. I don't regularly sell games from my collection. I have done it in the past (Heroquest got me a nice profit!), but it's not something I really like doing. I hate the hassle of it. For that reason, I am splurging on the split shipping. I know that financially it'd be better to just buy a second core box at retail, but there are 3 potential issues for me...
1) Most of the time CMON gets their games to backers before retail shelves (some notable exceptions like Marvel United notwithstanding)
2) I worry about how much this game will actually cost at retail. You assume $80 or $90, but it could be well over $100 with the shipping and Marvel IP
3) I know I won't sell it. I currently have 2 core sets of Project Elite (bought one at retail, then later bought a full pledge from somebody). It's been a full year that it's been sitting in my storage room. I know I should sell it, but like I said, I hate the hassle. The same would probably happen here. So for me, I'd rather suck up the $40-50 loss and just enjoy it when it gets here.
For context, it's not so much the size of the shipping costs that people have been angry about, but the massive increases over the estimates in the campaign are the issue - a campaign that is really rather recent, and certainly was live when the shipping crisis was very much in existence. Sometimes people are a little too hasty to shout "bait and switch", but on this occasion I very much empathise with those who feel like they've been duped.
I'm lucky, as I have no interest in CMON's games, but it doesn't stop me having great empathy for people who put a lot of money up, and are now being asked for a lot more money, or to give up 10% of their outlay to get the partial refund and cut their losses.
Other big companies do much more to preserve customer goodwill, as do many of the smaller crowdfunding projects.
exactly. Hey come and get your haircut for $5, but then mid-cutting, the stylist told you that he/she made a mistake and it should have been $50. You can either leave right now with a half-finished haircut, or you can pay $40 in total as opposed to $50 to let he/she finish. I don't know what else to say
Question for me is did CMON just badly miscalculate shipping prices (which seems unlikely) or did CMON knew what the real shipping prices would likely be and chose to lowball (relatively) it so people won't be turned off by the high shipping prices and pledge the KS (instead of waiting for retail)?
@@chencNYC lowball. There is no way CMON was blindsided by this.
@@hechuan5075 so basically, car mechanics.
@@chencNYC I vote for lowball. Shipping prices changed the most around 2 years ago, now it's just changing between very pricey and ridiculously pricey. Not the same level
the issue was that shipping costs have not jumped like their charges between the campaign and now, so why did they lowball the estimates so much when they already had an actual idea of the costs
There is another option that is not discussed. Make smaller KS campaigns. Start with the core box only then come back later with expansions. There are so many games where the core game is fantastic and people want more. Euthia, Uprising and Sleeping Gods as recent examples. All of them could have just had a core game and had a second expansion campaign. Why? Because it allows the publishers to fully concentrate on making a great core game with a really good rule book. Second, prices have been coming down (see the Logisitcs Report on WSJ, frieght and other costs are coming down just not as quick as people expect and the Shanghai lockdown has slowed the decline). I feel everyone looks at CMON and want the one big mega campaign versus doing it over two years or whatever it takes to fulfill the core game.
I like smaller campaigns that “stack” where you can order previous products in future campaigns. That might be a way to avoid these huge shipping hits all at once.
I love the idea but I think those follow up campaigns would be less successful. There’s a risk that the hype dies down and maybe the core game doesn’t get phenomenal ratings…it would limit people’s appetite. This way they are tapping into irrational completionist FOMO
@@ilqrd.6608 The follow-up campaigns are usually more successful. Look at "Nemesis Lockdown" or "Rurik Stone&Blade". When the game is good and word got around, a lot more people will want in. Also, first campaigns are often overlook or missed by a lot of people which then would gladly jump on the second campaign.
The problem would rather be that the first campaign might be less successful when people know there will likely be a second campaign 1-2 years later.
@@joeferreti9442 The trick is that this is CMON. The core game usually isn't all that good or doesn't have lasting replayability.
Do they even need to Kickstarter let's be honest Marvel United for example could have gone to retail in stages or even done it in a similar fashion to CCGs. I'd happily buy a 1 character/1Location pack for example from my FLGS.
Alex, CMON man! There is literally zero defense for this treatment of customers, much less advanced backers. Portal games instantly refunded my all in on Eleven with a simple request. Uprising still shipped to backers despite shipping fiasco and releasing a promo deck to help fund the out of pocket expense. As a fellow business owner myself, I can’t imagine you or I pulling these tricks on our current customers. Bottom line is CMON overtly chooses to treat its backers this way, and why any gamer would could continue to support them baffles me. I feel like all of you have CMON Stockholm Syndrome. I backed their comics a while back and bought ONE Cthulhu comic for $30. They tried to charge me $30 to then ship me a single book. Asked for my money back and they told me no, so I’m just glad i didn’t have this experience when I backed all in for Ankh. And I will NEVER buy another CMON game, period. Have some principles, take a stance, lead by example, and don’t condone or tacitly approve of this behavior. You have a platform to actually make a difference in this industry.
The statement that he automatically assumes the price will be higher than they estimate says a lot. Do we really think they don't know their estimate is wrong but Alex does? Or are we simply ok with the fact that they try to trick their backers?
Your suggestion is like telling me to boycott coke and only drink Pepsi, as if there was no difference between the two drinks. There’s a huge difference. CMON games are fantastic. I have limited time. I’m not going to stop playing the games I actually care about just because I want to make some arbitrary point about theoretical consumer values. If you go look into the comment section of Robinson Crusoe it’s full of people saying they’ll never support Portal ever again because of reasons. If I followed your advice I wouldn’t have any games to play at all
@@Twineandribbon arbitrary? That means for no reason and I have a pretty great reason. It’s not “arbitrary.” I don’t stand for being mistreated. You do what you like. There are thousands of game companies, you act like CMON is the only company making games you like to play? Thanks for proving my point, that CMON fans just blindly support their games simply because it’s from CMON. Sounds like you arbitrarily support CMON regardless of the games they produce or how they treat their customers. I would never blindly support a publisher in that manner, frankly it’s odd. No other publisher has a stranglehold over their customers’ minds quite like CMON.
@@DF-we4pt you’re right. I just think it is a silly reason. I suppose it would be incorrect to say it is arbitrary. CMON is probably my favorite publisher, as they beat out AR, FantasyFlight, and Flying Frog with the top number of games I like by a slim margin. I have more complaints against FantasyFlight and Flying Frog than I do against CMON though, and I still buy their games, because nobody makes anything better.
@@PeteQuad great point and I honestly feel people would criticize it heavily if it was any other publisher or campaign. For some reason customers give CMON a pass when they lie directly to their face. It’s so bizarre considering the bar every other publisher is held to by their backer base.
The $1 pledge helps, but yeah. I totally forgot to update my pledge on Resident Evil the Board Game, so I ended up losing the bonus I would have gotten cause I backed the RE 3 one, pledging for 1 dollar helps me a lot with the shipping price, but it is kind of a bummer when I forget to update the pledge on something I really wanted.
Yep, that's why I don't back at $1 only...even though I should.
I'm wondering why you want more of the hydra soldiers since they don't come with more spawn cards? Doesn't that just make the game easier when playing with hydra soldiers because you can let more come out before they start causing extra activations?
Ideally I would want more spawn cards, but even without them I still want more. For two reasons, first is that it's easy to house rule in a way that balances it, for example house rule that after every hydra card, the next card, regardless of what it is, also spawns one hydra per alert level. You can make up whatever will you want but you get the idea. Secondly is that while I do like the rule around getting extra activations when you run out of a unit type, when that unit type only has six it starts to drift towards randomness too quickly for my taste.
Currently looking at a total payment of over £1000 not sure if I can justify it no matter how much I love the game..
Yep, I understand. Drop down to a core pledge and sell the rest.
It boils down to can you afford it and do you really love marvel that much to put down the deposit equal to that of a on a car ? Only you can make that decision.
I just want CMON to put some freakin padding into the shipping boxes this time. It is frustrating to spend this much money on shipping when they don’t put any effort in protecting the product
Ya, but that would also increase shipping even further. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.
@@BoardGameCo true but with X-men united I ended up having to spend over $100 for alternative solutions because most of my box inserts were destroyed (Thank goodness the Sentinel box was one of the few in good condition) I spent extra anyway.
For Zombicide I was disappointed in the increased price but I expected it to cost extra so I am not upset with them over it except for the core box shipping price like you said. Now if they want to send both core boxes in wave 1……….
@@BoardGameCo I am sorry, but that is bs. Awaken realms and many others are doing way better job or at least are honest about high prices.
You can back at $1 and a campaign can still get you on the hook before you know what the shipping costs are. Take the latest Resident Evil campaign, they closed their PM without shipping charges. We HAD to decide on Gamefound whether or not we would support the project. I get they anticipate a change in shipping cost and wanna cover their butts. Just want to point out there are campaigns weeding out those $1 pledges before shipping prices are revealed.
Tidal Blades 2 is about to launch their PM without shipping charges aswell.
Being in Canada, I rarely ever back KS due to shipping…and obviously now, there’s less incentive to do so. I’ve learned to be pretty content with games I have and only get a few new games a year. Apartment living will do that to you! Generally if a game is a Kickstarter only game, I’ll see if local retailers are backing and purchase from them or I’ll just forget it exists.
As a publisher myself shipping is a mess. As El Dorado Games stated in a recent video you don't know the costs until the very end. We ended up subsidizing all areas even more than we intended (eg 2$ less for US became like 5..and so on). Lessons learned and all that but I kinda get these crazy shipping prices for that amount of boxes. Still unbelievably high though. Not a backer of this campaign gladly
As always thanks for a balanced discussion.
Absolutely
The biggest issue I have is the one I didn't really hear you cover. There are lots of people that have pointed out what shipping prices look like today compared to when the KS closed. Shipping prices are definitely higher in the long run. But since the KS closed, shipping prices have actually went down in the last month or so. This means that CMON doesn't really have any justification in doubling the shipping costs and making higher profits on shipping.
The justification has always been that the estimates don't include stretch goals
Living in California my shipping was 234 for 2 wave shipping and I believe it was 190 ish for 1 wave , I had to go for the two wave , need that core box painted up before the rest arrives.
Congrats on reaching 39K subscribers. Glad I learned a while ago to only back at $1 on certain campaigns, especially CMON games. I am also still worried about these massive games that may be delayed due to continuing issues. Lots of money tied up for years.
You sir are thinking exactly like me.
I late backed Cthulhu wars final onslaught as It was already delayed by almost a year and a half, we just recieved the good news production of plastic was done only paper left but I'm afraid the trouble they will have if they can't get it shipped quickly those boxes are huge.
I found shipping prices from CMON to be extremely high even in 2018. Even when accounting for my location and the weight of all-in pledges, the shipping costs became prohibitive and I no longer back CMON projects directly. Unless there's a retailer pledge, I won't bother.
Totally understand
Huge companies using kickstarter as a preorder system instead of a regular storefront are doing so only as a way to put the cost of doing business entirely on the customer. I dont know a lot about US laws but it seems the fairly weak consumer laws dont do much to hold them in check
In a nutshell. Us screws the customer.
I agree that shipping is crazy now. But many companies handle this situation very poorly. All they do is announce the newly raised shipping price, and expect the backers to take it or leave it.
A better way is make an announcement and break down the numbers to justify the rise in shipping fee. Let the backers see that the company is doing all they can with this issue. Perhaps even throw in some bonus items/cards to reduce the shipping anxiety.
As a board game fan who also works in the shipping logistics industry, I can say that shipping is insanely volatile at the moment and unless these companies manage to get a killer contract for their shipping rates, they’re probably getting screwed. Especially if anything happens that would cause lost/damaged/delayed packages. A lot of those refunds have been voided since the beginning of Covid. A lot of these games are also going to definitely get screwed by DIM weight vs actual weight because while components are generally rather light, they take up a LOT of valuable shipping space. That said, there’s no reason for CMON to price gouge their shipping here. The rates I’ve heard listed seem irrationally high. The only thing I can think of is that they are definitely passing along a lot of that ocean freight cost in addition to the full cost of from distribution to door. That said, if you’re worried about running into this in other campaigns, pledge the $1 and decide in the pledge manager. It’ll be your safest bet to avoid massive changes in the shipping costs.
Agreed on the $1 for sure
Is there any gameplay video on Galactus?
literally trying to organise all my zombicide BP content into the 6 boxes. and this showed up.
Ooh fun, it's doable :)
This felt like a Good Mythical Morning intro, heh. Used to watch them a ton.
I was one definitely caught up in FOMO with marvel zombies. I was going to be tweaking my pledge in lieu of having some time to rethink, this pushed me over the edge of just not backing and will be requesting a full refund. I could buy several games I want just for the pure shipping costs so this game. I hardly every play Black Plague so I don’t know why this would be that much different.