I've been playing Hive Mind for a long time. I even won a Legacy side event for a From the Vault: Relics about 10 years ago during the Mental Misstep era. The ring (or 2-3 copies of it) should be a large creature, so you have another Show and Tell target. I always preferred Griselbrand to Emrakul, but Atraxa seems better than both (I haven't played the deck with her). She is another blue card for FoW, and can draw you into a land, artifact, Hive Mind, and pact to have your combo win, if she cannot just win herself.
Hindsight 20/20 The answer for the grid on the stack moment is cast both copies of pact of negation targeting grid. Any other combination will lead to your opponent passing the turn and having you unable to pay for your own pact trigger unless they make a mistake.
in the first game of the first round, hive mind was definitely the better choice because you could've held priority to pact of negation your own pact of the titan and force your opponent to have to pay for both pacts
It would reveal the fact you have pact of negation to your opponent, but that’s a pretty safe guess from them, even if they aren’t familiar with the deck to begin with.
In the last game, if you were worried about them paying for Pact of the Titan, could you have cast Pact of the Titan, Pact of Negation targeting Pact of the Titan, then Sudden Sub'd the Pact of Negation forcing them to counter your pact and then them having to pay double blue?
At 8:23 you should have waited for their copy of pact of the titan to resolve and then cast pact of negation in your own pact. That way if they crop rotation for taiga in their upkeep, they still can’t pay for the pact of negation
M1G2, you had an all-in line if you kept the Pact. T2, Show and tell, If you uncap, you can dress down, and in response, Pact of negation. In hindsight this would not have worked, since we saw them surveil a pick your poison. Also in M1G1 with the debate of Sudden Sub vs Hive Mind, the other reason to play hive mind is you can play around them having a taiga, by pact of the titian, hive mind trigger on the stack, pact of negation your pact of the titian, then they get a copy of pact of the negation as well since they can only target your pact, which needs RUU, with only one hierarch, they would have needed both a taiga an a tropical, in addition to the 8 mana (though cradle would have helped with this)
Wouldn't a single copy of Intervention Pact in the main/SB work out well, since Temur mana looks pretty common? It's only 3 mana, but it costs double white in the upkeep. Love the video!! Hivemind defense grid summoner's pact interaction is almost worthy of a Judge Dave video..... lol
So the first thing that occurs to me is that if your alternate show and tell payoff was a green creature then Summoner's Pact could tutor it, which might offer more alternate lines. Not really sure what's good there, though; first obvious thought is Atraxa, but having to actually pay for summoner's yourself on the alternate line puts a serious crimp in the whole thing (going heavier on Lotus Petal or Elvish Spirit Guide as fast mana with the plan of hitting them off her would help, but I'm highly doubtful that would be good enough for the rest of the deck). Plus, I'm guessing the deck only runs one of those because it's the most likely to be payable for and/or useful to the opponent. On the other hand, it also works in the specific scenario that the opponent casts Natural Order into your Hive Mind. Atraxa doesn't stop Craterhoof, so...Spore Frog? And speaking of more cute shit, we're on Forbidden Orchard and not running creatures already so why not Oath of Dr- oh, it's banned? Welp, off to vintage...
BTW your analysis in the wrap up about the show&tell matchup is incorrect 51:50. If you have pacts of negation negation summoner + hive mind, and they have a defense grid on the stack, then you can only cast the pacts of negation. If you cast summoner's pact and then try to counter your own summoner's pact with pact of negation, then they can negate your negation, which leaves you on the hook for 2GG in your next upkeep. They then just pass the turn and you lose. The correct line is to 2x pact of negation, leaving them on the hook for 6UUUU, and you on the hook for nothing.
Versus the show and tell omniscient Emrakul they only had basic lands and an ancient tomb so couldn’t you have fired in two pacts hoping they don’t counter either of them before you conceded since they couldn’t pay for both? Or were they already on their extra turn?
Pact of Negation doesn't work with Sudden Substitution. Am I misunderstanding something here? You give them control of the pact. "spell's controller may choose new targets" They choose Substitution which is still on the stack. Substitution finishes resolving and goes to the graveyard. Pact fizzles cause it doesn't have a target anymore. It's the same trick as countering Force with Misdirection.
A spell does its thing in its entirety, then skadoodles off the stack. They ponder for example, you pact the ponder, sudden sub the pact for DRC. Sudden Substitution resolved, it is no longer on the stack to be a target. Its only pacts and ponders over there
Would it be worth it at all to play Elvish Spirit Guide over the singular Lotus, since the petal is really just there for acceleration and the spirit guide makes it so that your Summoner's Pact has the option of tutoring out mana in a pinch?
I used to specialize in this deck. Was also the original guy that requested the first time he played it. And yeah I played the deck with 4 petals & 2 spirit guides. No grim monoliths. You can even tutor guide for a mana for your show and tell on turn 1 with tomb. The lotus petals I had to be able to pact your lotus petal so you don’t need your opponent to play a spell to pact of negation. I play tested this deck for years in Japan and won some tournies with it.
9:50 you mention carpet of flowers helping them pay for pact, but carpet is in main phase and pact triggers on upkeep
10:25 i would listen to a whole podcast of just games bosh remembers for being sick as hell
Really smart of someone to figure out that the colorless card advantage engine that slots into almost every deck also slots into this deck
This deck was way more challenging than I realized. Very cool!
It does require specific understanding of some weird stack tricks
I was actually just re watching the other hivemind and sudden substitution leagues and wanted more, thank you universe and BoshNRoll
I've been playing Hive Mind for a long time. I even won a Legacy side event for a From the Vault: Relics about 10 years ago during the Mental Misstep era. The ring (or 2-3 copies of it) should be a large creature, so you have another Show and Tell target. I always preferred Griselbrand to Emrakul, but Atraxa seems better than both (I haven't played the deck with her). She is another blue card for FoW, and can draw you into a land, artifact, Hive Mind, and pact to have your combo win, if she cannot just win herself.
Boshpack my beloved ❤
*Boshpact
Great video Mr. Roll. More videos plz.
The first deck I ever saw on the channel and still remains an absolute blast - love seeing it on April Fool's day!
Hindsight 20/20 The answer for the grid on the stack moment is cast both copies of pact of negation targeting grid. Any other combination will lead to your opponent passing the turn and having you unable to pay for your own pact trigger unless they make a mistake.
in the first game of the first round, hive mind was definitely the better choice because you could've held priority to pact of negation your own pact of the titan and force your opponent to have to pay for both pacts
they would copy pact of negation and counter their own pact of the titan and then only have to pay for titan
It would reveal the fact you have pact of negation to your opponent, but that’s a pretty safe guess from them, even if they aren’t familiar with the deck to begin with.
@@micahberg6546 you mean they'd have to only pay for the pact of negation, but I see what you mean
@@micahberg6546They wouldn't, because their copy of pact of the titan is not on the stack just yet, only the trigger to get the copy.
So they would get the two copies, but the pact of negation would have to counter your own pact of negation, did I understand this correctly?
YES! This is my second favorite deck behind dreadnought
This deck cracks me up every time. I wish I had a local legacy scene where I live just to troll people with it.
This is a sweet deck. I recently was wondering if any effect like this exists, but couldn't search it. Turns out hive mind AND sudden sub exist!
smoking that bosh pack
In the last game, if you were worried about them paying for Pact of the Titan, could you have cast Pact of the Titan, Pact of Negation targeting Pact of the Titan, then Sudden Sub'd the Pact of Negation forcing them to counter your pact and then them having to pay double blue?
At 8:23 you should have waited for their copy of pact of the titan to resolve and then cast pact of negation in your own pact. That way if they crop rotation for taiga in their upkeep, they still can’t pay for the pact of negation
hi dalton
This has got to be one of my favorite decks!
Idk about y'all, but Bosh is my personal favorite Forbidden Orchard gamer 😎
M1G2, you had an all-in line if you kept the Pact.
T2, Show and tell,
If you uncap, you can dress down, and in response, Pact of negation. In hindsight this would not have worked, since we saw them surveil a pick your poison.
Also in M1G1 with the debate of Sudden Sub vs Hive Mind, the other reason to play hive mind is you can play around them having a taiga, by pact of the titian, hive mind trigger on the stack, pact of negation your pact of the titian, then they get a copy of pact of the negation as well since they can only target your pact, which needs RUU, with only one hierarch, they would have needed both a taiga an a tropical, in addition to the 8 mana (though cradle would have helped with this)
One of my favs. Hopefully we get to play against infect again, and show them the power of split second!
Wouldn't a single copy of Intervention Pact in the main/SB work out well, since Temur mana looks pretty common? It's only 3 mana, but it costs double white in the upkeep. Love the video!!
Hivemind defense grid summoner's pact interaction is almost worthy of a Judge Dave video..... lol
At 38:45 if they copy pact targeting grid, your pact fizzles and you don't pay for it
So the first thing that occurs to me is that if your alternate show and tell payoff was a green creature then Summoner's Pact could tutor it, which might offer more alternate lines. Not really sure what's good there, though; first obvious thought is Atraxa, but having to actually pay for summoner's yourself on the alternate line puts a serious crimp in the whole thing (going heavier on Lotus Petal or Elvish Spirit Guide as fast mana with the plan of hitting them off her would help, but I'm highly doubtful that would be good enough for the rest of the deck). Plus, I'm guessing the deck only runs one of those because it's the most likely to be payable for and/or useful to the opponent.
On the other hand, it also works in the specific scenario that the opponent casts Natural Order into your Hive Mind. Atraxa doesn't stop Craterhoof, so...Spore Frog?
And speaking of more cute shit, we're on Forbidden Orchard and not running creatures already so why not Oath of Dr- oh, it's banned? Welp, off to vintage...
i cant wait until some new weird commander card breaks this deck…
Insert gene Wilders "YOU LOSE" in every winning match
14:05 BYOOOOOTEEFUL
Summoner’s pact in a deck with no creatures is WILD
BTW your analysis in the wrap up about the show&tell matchup is incorrect 51:50. If you have pacts of negation negation summoner + hive mind, and they have a defense grid on the stack, then you can only cast the pacts of negation. If you cast summoner's pact and then try to counter your own summoner's pact with pact of negation, then they can negate your negation, which leaves you on the hook for 2GG in your next upkeep. They then just pass the turn and you lose. The correct line is to 2x pact of negation, leaving them on the hook for 6UUUU, and you on the hook for nothing.
Image if you mindslaver this deck and see one of the pacts in hand...ooos, GG :)
Versus the show and tell omniscient Emrakul they only had basic lands and an ancient tomb so couldn’t you have fired in two pacts hoping they don’t counter either of them before you conceded since they couldn’t pay for both? Or were they already on their extra turn?
Once they resolved defense grid he could no longer cast more pacts.
I wish hive mind or sudden sub would come to Arena.
Pact of Negation doesn't work with Sudden Substitution. Am I misunderstanding something here? You give them control of the pact. "spell's controller may choose new targets" They choose Substitution which is still on the stack. Substitution finishes resolving and goes to the graveyard. Pact fizzles cause it doesn't have a target anymore. It's the same trick as countering Force with Misdirection.
A spell does its thing in its entirety, then skadoodles off the stack. They ponder for example, you pact the ponder, sudden sub the pact for DRC. Sudden Substitution resolved, it is no longer on the stack to be a target. Its only pacts and ponders over there
@@gnogara Yes only once a spell does its thing in its entirety including "may choose new targets" leaves the stack so its still a viable target.
You are correct, reading the card explains the card, and I was a dingus.
Would it be worth it at all to play Elvish Spirit Guide over the singular Lotus, since the petal is really just there for acceleration and the spirit guide makes it so that your Summoner's Pact has the option of tutoring out mana in a pinch?
I used to specialize in this deck. Was also the original guy that requested the first time he played it. And yeah I played the deck with 4 petals & 2 spirit guides. No grim monoliths. You can even tutor guide for a mana for your show and tell on turn 1 with tomb. The lotus petals I had to be able to pact your lotus petal so you don’t need your opponent to play a spell to pact of negation. I play tested this deck for years in Japan and won some tournies with it.
Ahh ok having the option to pact your own petals is cool too, I hadn't thought of that
I just sold all my Sudden Substitutions because of this league and now the price is $1.50 sorry everyone
39:54
no substitution for that bosh pack
bosh pack smoke em if you got em
first
Omg I can’t believe they banned ponder in legacy. This is gonna make a huge difference in the format
April fools ;)
You need to rerun this deck. You played bad this league