Could The OHL Work In Thunder Bay?
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- Опубликовано: 8 окт 2024
- With a population of over 100 thousand, Thunder Bay Ontario has the infrastructure and the arena to host an OHL team, but with its geography could it work?
#ohl #thunderbay #juniorhockey #offseason
Thunder Bay is a great hockey community, but doesn’t make sense for the OHL. I think an arguement for Timmins would be easier for expansion.
That said, for Thunder Bay to work, I personally would advocate to create a fourth league within the CHL boundaries that would include Thunder Bay, Winnipeg, Wisconsin, North Dakota, Minnesota and even Northern Central States. It would make travel easier and replicate what other development or junior leagues have done, like USL League Two in the Deep North Division.
Fort William Gardens needs lots of work. We would need a new arena and an owner with lots of money to host a team in a league of this quality. Would love to see expansion here but it’s not realistic right now.
New sub. Great vid. 👍❤️
Thunder Bay would be better off trying to get back in the USHL. Since we last were in that league like 25 years ago the USHL has really stepped up their game for producing NHL players and I think Thunder Bay would be a good city to attract Canadians who want to play College
I used to do camera work for Flyers games that were broadcast on channel 7 SHAW. Was great hockey.
That could all change if the law suit against the NCAA hockey teams (by CHL players) gets prosecuted. Therefore allowing CHL players to play in the NCAA.
@@glennmorin7431 , it’s also about the arena, money behind the team and quite frankly I don’t know that ThunderBay has the financial demographics to support a team like that. 20 years ago yes but the % of people that can afford to go to games with today’s economy in ThunderBay is fairly small compared to what a franchise like that would need to thrive.
A deep pocketed Sports team investor, might be better off putting money into a Thunder Bay CPL (Canadian Premier League) soccer team than an OHL hockey franchise for the city. The economics more alline with a national soccer league team than a regional Jr hockey team. (ie. Amount of home games played; size of stadium/arena; price of tickets; travel -by air mostly- in the CPL, salaries, demographics, etc.). Major Junior hockey has priced itself out of some market's like Thunder Bay. Especially with T Bays economy (25 + years in Recession).
@@glennmorin7431 , I agree.
Thunder Bay had a waterfront arena project ready to go and the Jets were going to move the Manitoba moose in but the Harper government wouldn’t give founding for the building. It was a huge missed opportunity!
Thunder Bay would definitely support an OHL team but the geography is just too bad for bus travel.
Would love for them to have an ohl team but just doesn’t make sense. As you mentioned it would take deep pockets. And if I’m Mr deep pockets would I rather pay for arena upgrades, my teams travel, and reimburse all other teams 100% of their travel or just pick a city and build my own private arena and make money on the team, parking and other events at the venue.
Thats a tuff one… i live in thunder bay and play hockey, have my whole life. Lots of people would watch and support, just like we support the university Thunder Wolves team. I think instead of Fort William gardens, its possible the Tournament centre could host the ice, or we could build up the reserve ice buildings. Im just not sure if our city is big enough to support $ wise and we’re soo far away from anything, except we are fairly close to the duluth border. Thunder Bay definitely has local the hockey talent, but that is neither here nor there. PS. Our population is actually larger than what is listed due to the large rural surrounding areas and nearby reserves that often come to Tbay as a hub. Also, currently the Gardens arena has been having many renovations done.
Great video, im from Thunder Bay and the Fort William Gardens is a great facility, I have worked there on the renovations over the summer, there's a lot of money being put into the Thunderwolves dressing room, as well as the theatrics system (jumbotron and sound system). I have no doubt in my mind that the city will easily support an OHL team, the locals here live and breath hockey. Whilst i agree that travel will be the limiting factor and the players elsewhere in the league will not be thrilled with it, i believe that it will be extremely profitable if the OHL does decide they want to expand up north.
I would agree but with the way the city works on big projects it would take ages ontop of having to clean up for such a project
It's still the 70+ years old Fort William Gardens, with 3 800 Seats (not the 5 200 seats it had in the 1980's) and a few Suites at the far end of the rink.
It Might be OK for the 1st couple of years (the team WILL lose money), for an OHL team but a NEW Multi-Purpose Arena would have to be built, if an OHL Junior team is to survive, in the Lakehead.
An arena to play host to Curling, Basketball (CIAU?? Championships), Trade Shows, etc. Even Indoor Soccer and Arena Football.
It would also have to be connected to a Convention Centre and Hotel. maybe even a Condominium Complex.
This would be ideally suited to the old Pool 6 area, where the Cruise Ships dock.
And again, when you involve "City Council", in T Bay, it gets "messy".
The other problem is the Demographic & Economics of the city. The demographics are changing (ever so Slowly; not like London, Ont.). This means there a immigrants coming into the city from Countries which Soccer/Football is their sport. Not hockey or Baseball.
And the Biggest Employers in T Bay is Government or Hospitals. Not former industries like Pulp & Paper or Lumber Sawmilling or Mining (Yes, I know there is the PGM mine, Lac de Isle, North of the City). These industries (when they were operating) employed Thousands of people, in and around the city.
I would also like to add, during the first few years, of the Thunder Bay Flyers existence in the Jr A USHL ( don't get this confused with the Thunder Bay Twins playing in the Semi-Pro USHL of the late 1960's to middle 1970's), they were sponsored by Austin Airways ( Air Ontario); the precursor to Porter Airlines ( the Duluce Family, owners of Porter Airlines, were from Thunder Bay). This helped immensely with travel costs. Later on, The Flyers and all USHL teams Bused to Thunder Bay and Minnesota/Iowa/Nebraska.
I believe The Staal Brothers (4) are owners of the SIJHL's (Superior International Jr A Hockey League) Kam River Fighting Walleye (a Jr Team playing 20km West outside Thunder Bay, in the Hamlet of Stanley, close to Kakabeka Falls, Ontario).
There many Graduates of the OHL from Thunder Bay. The Staal Brothers; Alex Auld; Walt Poddubny; Alex Delvecchio; Tony Hrkac; Taylor Pyatt & his Father Nelson Pyatt); Robert Bortuzzo; Etc.
From the Barrie Colts (OHL): Tyler Tucker; Mackenzie Blackwood; Dan Speer; Jeremy Swanson; Walker McDonald; etc.
The Thunder Bay Flyers, of the USHL, sent many players to NCAA teams, on Hockey Scholarships.
Alot of NHLers came from that area MB border to SSM
Pronger,MikeRichards,Staals,Bortuzzo,Rucchin,Delvecchio,Pyatt,Mahovlich,Sullivan. But some of those towns are so far from other places in Ontario closer to Manitoba/NCAA Minnesota,Wisconsin,NorthernMichigan.
They were considering moving Manitoba Moose to ThunderBay in order to only have Jets support but didnt happen. Youd think if TNSE was considering AHL,OHL could work but would cost alot or big risk it would probably be easier join NAHL/USHL im pretty sure they had ThunderBay Flyers in USHL in 80s or 90s.
so I love this discussion, I always enjoy the idea of expansion in junior hockey. Thunder Bay absolutely has the market to support a team. However, as you mentioned Mike, logistics and travel are definitely an issue. The way I see it - Thunder Bay could have also joined the WHL if Winnipeg didnt lose their junior team to Wenatchee. The drive to SSM and the drive to Winnipeg are equal in length (plus or minus a few minutes). the struggle for the WHL would be the fact that to go play Prince George is a long distance, but you could argue the same for Winnipeg or the Brandon Wheat Kings. I think with the OHL, a team in Thunder Bay would have to look at scheduling where the eastern conference has their first half of the season all against western conference opponents. You would have to have say Peterborough go play Thunder Bay, and have it work out that they play teams along the way back for their next games. So Thunder Bay, Sault Ste. Marie, Sudbury, North Bay, Barrie and then back home in that order, and have other eastern conference teams follow suit with that type of schedule.
I believe Thunder Bay was close to landing an AHL team, when the Winnipeg Jets were looking for a location of their farm team back in 2011.
As mentioned below and in your video the logistics are killer here for an OHL (or otherwise) more professional team. Several events were cancelled for the Ontario Winter Games recently due to the lack of flight options and the pricing. That included a subsidy from the Ontario government to help address those costs which wasn't enough. Realistically travelling in the winter time by vehicle is hazardous and fraught with potential risks so there is no consistent alternative option but to fly. Meaning any team that comes to Thunder Bay would likely need to do 2 or 3 games here to make it worthwhile for both parties. Same with Thunder Bay team they would need likely extended road trips in Southern Ontario to make it work. Which likely doesn't help to have potentially weeks away from the home rink to build connection with the community. Yes, Thunder Bay officially has a population of 109,000 (roughly) but its likely a lot less here actually with people working in the oil sands, the mines in the region etc so the pool to pull from for these games is likely much less. Especially if the price of tickets becomes too significant it would likely impact attendance.
Lakehead University is also a big competitor to the OHL team and as you mentioned pulls quite good attendance to the area regularly. There is also the SIJHL which plays in that area; so it could become quite challenging to schedule all three options in that arena, and could have negative impacts on all three organizations. The new arena plan was shelved because the higher level of government didn't want to support it with the potential for a professional team in the building. That along with backlash at the potential for replacing the arena with a new facility's, its cost and location. Fort William Gardens doesn't have good sight lines for media, enough boxes for corporate or media support. I think for a multitude of reasons the OHL would demand a facility built to replace this one for any consideration at a team.
I mean I would love to be wrong but I don't think Thunder Bay could handle an OHL team or effectively support it and likely caps out at a university hockey team. Unless an owner is willing to eat a lot of costs.
Yes. This is what I have stated previously on this site. Sad but true.
About 20 yrs ago there was "some" interest from the 2nd in Command at "BlackBerry". He was from T Bay (name??). But that ship has sailed.
The Professional Colonial Hockey League/United Hockey League stuck around T Bay for 10 yrs, in the late 1990's, but were finally sold and moved to Quad Cities.
Not sure how teams from Port Huron, Flint, Utica, Muskegon, etc. got to Thunder Bay??? Bussed??
Markets like kawthra lakes,cornwall, Chatham,York region will be something to consider
I can't see a team working here in Thunder Bay. But id it did happen, I'd go to some games for sure.
It’s kinda like Wpg with the WHL! A USHL team there and Duluth would be a great combo!
Would love to see it happen. But we’d need a new rink. FW Gardens is subpar. And then there’s travel. Ticket prices would have to reflect the travel.
1) just subscribed...give the people what they want, if you make it they will come....
2) short answer yes, I always thought Thunder Bay would fit in the WHL, but with the Winnipeg Ice relocating to some god awful area in Washington... (Wenatchee) there aren't many close teams anymore.
[Do a deep dive on the GTA markets without OHL teams next 👍...Markham, Vaughan, Mississauga, Richmond Hill, Scarborough etc.]
Too far. One person noted the relocation of the WHL Winnipeg team to Washington so even the WHL is out. Arena in TB,as mentioned, needs upgrades.
They should go for the USHL. The Fargo Force is 700km away as the nearest team, but about 2/3 of the 16 teams are within 1000km.
It was home to the Thunder Bay Flyers until 2000, I don't see why it couldn't be their home again now.
Really should be called the SOHL ( Sothern Ontario Hockey League ) west of Sault Ste Marie there is still 1400 km's of Ontario. Most Thunder Bay sports teams play with Minnesota and Wisconsin zoned leagues but are still far away ( 300 km to Duluth MN) . Cost and boarder crossing challenges are always an issue. The Chill Soccer team may loose their spot in USL League Two.
Travel is a big Question mark. Each visiting team coming to Thunder Bay would likely have to play a 2 game series. This is done in the AHL with the San Diego Gulls (NHL Anaheim Ducks primary farm team). This was also the case with the Thunder Bay Flyers (USHL Jr A), in the late 1980's to 2000's.
The Thunder Bay Twins, a very successful Senior A hockey team ( Won 4 Allan Cups-Canadian Senior A Hockey supremacy) also had to Pay for flights from Toronto Pearson Int. Airport to Thunder Bay for member OHA Sr A teams (ie, Cambridge Hornets; Barrie Flyers; Petrolia Squires; Whitby Warriors; Lindsey Lancers; Brantford Alexanders: Welland Steelers; etc.). And again when the OHA Sr A League kicked the Twins out of the league because of the flights and 2 game series, on Weekends. The Twins had to do the same thing when they joined the Manitoba based CASHL (Centeral Amater Senior Hockey League; St. Boniface Mohawks; North End Flyers; Steinbach Huskies; Brandon Olympics; Warroad Lakers; etc.). And THunder Bay OHL Team would probably have to pay for Lodging (ie. Hotel), for visiting teams, while staying for those 2 game series.
And if u have ever flown from Toronto to Thunder Bay, u will know the cost of a ticket ($$$$).
don't get me wrong, I would love to see Thunder Bay get an OHL (or even a WHL) Franchise. The owner better have BIG Bucks $$$$.
Thunder Bay would work better in the WHL... or create a 4th region. Which would solve the host problem for the memorial cup too.
You seem so fixated on the OHL that you seem to ignore the slightly more logical option: Thunder Bay in the WHL. They are still remote from the nearest WHL city, Brandon Manitoba (924 km), and clearly this would work better with a team in Winnipeg (702 km), but the distances in the WHL are long in general. Saskatoon to Calgary is 621 km. And of course Brandon to Portland Oregon is even bigger 2155 km, but scheduling makes that work.
This is an OHL focused channel. But you bring up good points when it comes to the WHL.
You can't mention the O without some overlap with the W and Q.
A CHL focused channel (primarily focused on Peterborough) would expand your channels reach.
I personally don't care about the Pete's 😅 but I love OHL relocation/expansion talks.
Tbay definitely has the people and the fans to support an ohl team maybe even an ahl team. The problem is the arena, travel, and owners with deep pockets.
I don't see how. Th. bay is closer to whl's eastern most team brandon in manitoba than the ohl's closest market in ssm. I remember in the Cohl days the road trip from saginaw to th. bay was like 13 hours and had to play several games while there. Imagine the trip from ottawa the ohl eastern most team to th. bay? And one long road along lake superior to get there. I'm sure th. bay would be a good ohl market just not practical. And the old ft. william gardens would need some major upgrades if not a new building there.
Thunder Bay is a great city however the traveling costs would be excessive for all the OHL teams. They complain about traveling to the Sault which is a 10 hour bus ride to Thunder Bay.
Do some of the WHL teams not have long travel times for teams? Perhaps a lesson could be taken from them. Other than geography, I can see how Thunder Bay could be a great potential OHL market.
You would need to do the two game set over a weekend, both home and away, for a team there to work.
Would love to see Lindsay get a team the Lindsay musky’s I know Lindsay is to small at the moment but there’s like six or more subdivisions being built at the moment and it’s a pretty hockey crazed town they would also need a bigger area or and addition on there current one
Hey, you didn’t hear this from me. I might have heard an actual valid point from the grapevine through my job in media. I was told to keep watch on the leasing records at the marina park by someone in city council as the old grain elevator property’s are up for sale. The perfect place for a rink I was told by the same person. So we might see something in the near/distant future
I was going to comment last video. As far as western New York. I could see Albany or Binghamton working. They are former AHL markets with no team.
Albany and Binghamton are too far east for the OHL. Albany's arena, with a capacity of about 15,000, was way too large for an AHL team.
There's a lot of OHL teams without a major airport. It's not just a hop on a plane for them. They would have to do a complete Planes, Trains, and Automobiles just to get to Thunder Bay.
No. During the "hay days" of the Thunder Bay Twins Senior A hockey team, playing in the OHA Senior A League, ALL teams bussed to Toronto Pearson International Airport, and then Boarded a Flight to Thunder Bay. So Barrie Flyers, Orillia Terriers; Cambridge Hornets; Brantford Alexanders; Welland Steelers; Preston Jesters; Petrolia Gibbon Squires; Lindsey Lancers; Whitby Warriors; Napanee Comets; etc. would Bus to Pearson and then board a flight to T Bay. This was done usually Friday night or early Saturday morning (1.5hr Flight to T Bay). Then always play a Saturday Evening & Sunday Afternoon game at the FW Gardens. Were NOT talking about charter flights, ether. The Thunder Bay Flyers mostly played Friday night and Saturday Afternoon home games, in the early years.
@@glennmorin7431 That's an insane amount of traveling.
Thunder Bay would be a team that travels by plane. On top of that playing in the WHL would be easier for them.
i live in thunder bay , i seen teams come and go since the thunder bay twins . the only way OHL team would survive is having smart investors who would run it as a successful business . right now we have the lake head thunderbay wolves as the main source of hockey so having a semi pro team would work but truly the fort william garden would need a outside and inside renovations for people in the community and outside visitors to come and watch a game
What's the name of that university team?
@@johndell8679thunder wolves
Thunder Bay could make it work on their side, absolutely, but there's little in it for the other teams to add such a distant and expensive road trip. Not sure why any of the other teams would be interested in adding a team that far away - it's a big ask.
We need expansion
There was talk of True North putting either the Jets' AHL or ECHL team in Thunder Bay as part of a new arena, but with that deal shelved, I'm not sure if there's still that interest.
Oh yeah. I definitely remember that. Unfortunately, a few naysayers spoke really loud as to why it wasn't a good idea. One in particular did his best to make sure it didn't happen at all after one site he was passionately campaigning for got rejected by city council. Kind of fishy, don't you think?
I would suggest that anyone who thought Thunder Bay would be suitable for an OHL franchise doesn’t really know where it is other than…north. I would love to see it, but I don’t think it’s feasible.
Probably better with an ECHL team, furthest distance is just over 1500km.
Or maybe AHL all but one within 1000km in the Central Division.
That got kicked around a few years ago, but that is about how far it got.
Geography doesn't work, first and foremost. It is 8 hours (900 km approx. ) to the Sault, the closest OHL franchise. How's that going to work, especially in the winter?
Our biggest curse is that we're so far away from any other cities.
We would be another 10 hr bus ride from Sudbury on terrible winter highways.
It just won't work.
they would have to have their own plane
Business speaking too costly , private plane air travel for starters. But is Thunder bay a hockey city you bet it would be ideal for a OHL team here. Resurrect the Centennials and bring them here . Thunder bay Centennials has a nice ring to it.
ushl might work in TB
6:57 clearly you didn't do any Research
They have Junior A
With the Thunder Bay North Stars
So yes they have Junior hockey
he said OHL, they are CJHL
I don't think it would work. The closest OHL city is Sault Saint Marie, and that's pretty far away in itself. Geography seems to have been quite a problem for the city.
Never happen, they use buses not planes in the OHL the closest team is 8+ hours away. FWG sucks it is so old. The LU Thunderwolves will block it at every step because an OHL or AHL team would kill their crowds.
Did they not have a team before?
Thunder Bay has never had a team in the OHL.. But they have the North Stars who are a part of the CJHL
What if the current Ontario Hockey League (OHL) team Otters relocate from Erie, Pennsylvania to Thunder Bay, Ontario they would be known as the Thunder Bay Otters in the OHL and they would still be in OHL Western Division with the Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds and they would travel to other Northern Ontario cities like Sudbury and North Bay to play the Sudbury Wolves 🐺 and North Bay Baltalians in the OHL Eastern Division
Don't bring an OHL team to Thunder Bay. This city puts no money into hockey. Just look at the horrible arenas in the city.
I'm not sure the City of Thunder Bay can support an OHL franchise.
They for sure need a New Arena. Preferably 8 000 seats (not the 3600 seats at the FW Gardens); with luxury boxes, etc.
The arena would have to be connected to a Convention Centre & possibly a Curling Rink.
For the last 25 yrs the city has taken hit after hit from many closures from within its industrial base (Pulp & Paper, Mining, Shipping, Manufacturing).
3 Paper Mills; 3 Lumber Sawmills; a Nickle Mine (@ Shebandowan Lake); the forever up & down of the Alstom (Can-Car/UTDC/Bombardier) Commuter Rail car plant & the closing (& consolidation) of the terminal grain storage elevators.
The city has a Large aging (Baby Boomer) population, who are on a fixed income.
This does Not bode well for selling season tickets & private boxes.
The city is in the middle of Nowhere & the politics reflect that.
Many small business fiefdoms compete for city dollars. This also means when the city council gets involved with the building of a New Arena (which has been "tried" 2x, in the past 15yrs); there will be many competing interests (do to the size, makeup & economy of the city). Some factions will want to build the new arena in Fort William or in Port Arthur (Yes there are many locals who still refer to Thunder Bay as FW or PA; depending on where you were born) or built in an industrial Park in the "Intercity area" of T Bay.
If, & there are lots of "if's"; there is an industrial Renaissance (ie. The building of a New Lithium Refinery; building of more terminal Elevator Storage; The Ship Yard, etc.) then maybe the economics of running a OHL hockey team could make it viable.
Last thing needed in Thunder Bay is more hockey.
It be greay until the team starts losing same thing happened with the flyers and thunder Wolves once tbe team started losing the attendance plummets
Only now has Lakehead attendance gone back up cause they've started to play well again
Anderson Scott Moore William Hall Brenda
No
The answer is "No". Absolutely not. The geography does not work.
2 things: Thunder Bay may as well be in Manitoba. It's closer to where the Brandon Wheat Kings play than it is to any OHL franchise. Also, Thunder Bay is a shithole. Highest crime rate per capita in the entire country.
Poor bus driver having to drive this distance
it's too far.
Thunder Bay is in a no man's land, a city far away from other cities, just too much space either way junior hockey wise.
Thunder Bay would not work as a expansion team, the teams would be too tired from the long road trips to and from Thunder Bay, teams would have to finish a road game against Soo Greyhound, get straight to the bus and then go back on the ice in Thunder Bay, and that would increase the chances of injuries
yet brandon manitoba has a team in the WHL....
St. Johns HAD a team in the ECHL...
But Thunder Bay NOT A CHANCE lol
Not happening anytime soon