Analyzing Evil: President Coriolanus Snow And The World Of The Hunger Games
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- Опубликовано: 16 дек 2023
- Hello everyone and welcome to the one hundred sixty-first episode of Analyzing Evil! Our feature topics for this video is Coriolanus Snow and the World of the Hunger Games. I hope you enjoy, and thanks for watching. If you have any feedback or questions feel free to let me know below!
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In an interview with Donald Sutherland (the actor for President Snow), he talks about how he purposely approached playing the character as not evil, but a pragmatic leader trying his hardest to hold together a fragile nation in a broken world using every tool at his disposal. That makes an incredibly compelling villain because we then understand he is not doing things for the sake of evil, but because he genuinely believes it is the right thing to do. Even in the end, when he knows he is going to die for his crimes, he does not apologize for what he has done, he apologizes for what Katniss lost. "We both know I'm not above killing children. But I'm not wasteful."
Your description sounds like firefly’s ‘operative’
The problem with Snow is that he was originally made cartoonishly evil (the whole prostituting tributes thing, why in the world would he do such a thing when he already has all of Panem’ wealth + Plynth fortune in his hands?) with partial humanisation in the end and prequel.
@@fel_zharost he was never made cartoonishly evil, that’s just your bad interpretation of it. He was always the same from the beginning of the trilogy to the end. Pragmatic and goal oriented, but human all the same who makes mistakes here and there.
You’re asking why he would prostitute the tributes, why wouldn’t he? He’s a capitol elite who’s bigoted, the majority of the Capitol citizens don’t view that tributes as human, they’re property. And if a few of the Capitol people want more of the tributes after the games, why not? Keeps the flow of money, and the already existing system going. The tributes can’t say no, they never have a choice to begin with.
The prostitution is probably not something Snow personally wants, but when there’s an ask and demand for the tributes in this manner that benefits the Capitol, why would he say no?
Going along with the comparison of Pan AM To Rome, Gladiators were rumored to please wealthy Roman women, so tributes being prostituted has at least some basis in historical possibility.
@@sia6045 as a child of war he would hardly feel sentiment towards pompous sissies that Capitol’ citizens are (in his youth they were straight-up fascists accustomed to hardships rather than that). My point is that since he is pragmatic pissing of winners that are living legends in their districts is stupidiest shit to do.
I like the fact Snow has a passion for growing roses, being that a reference to Stalin's love for gardening. It shows that totalitarian leaders, despite being monsters, still have normal hobbies
Interesting observation! Though, in the story, it's to mask the smell of blood due to his use of poison to rise to power and take out his competition, which had its effect on his own health, 🍻
Or how Hitler apparently was a Mickey Mouse fan.
I thought the Rose Garden was also a reference to Snow's grandmother's garden when he was a kid.
@@arnold20139both things can be true
The Capitol itself is a criticism of the ancient Roman Empire which I find interesting.
The most satisfying thing about rewatching The Hunger Games is knowing that President Snow was going through it since the moment he heard the name Katniss.
😂so true!
Yes exactly
I also think that’s why he only really calls her Miss Everdeen unless he has no choice.
@@r_shan2506 great catch.
I can only imagine what he must have felt hearing her sing The Hanging Tree
It was quite refreshing the revelation that Alma Coin, the leader of the revolution, was also an evil person like Snow with her own selfish goals. Unlike other stories like the original Star Wars trilogy, Coin gives a much more credible and realistic depiction of a revolutionary leader, mirrowing the perverse personalities of Robespierre and Lenin.
The devil you know vs the devil you don't
Totally agree, I love the ending where snow is laughing because Katniss killed her…. It’s brilliant…
yeah except lenin was cool
Revolution is such a double-edged sword.
Like, it's great to want to upend a corrupt and tyrannical society.
But you always need to keep the leaders of a revolution in check. Because if the revolution wins, once the dust settles they'll be the new boss.
And only then will they show who they are.
Its not really fair to compare Star Wars, even moreso with the recent dogshit added to the franchise. The New Republic really just did a do over of the old one, the same old republic that crumbled and formed the Galactic Empire.
However, it might be more accurate to say that Star Wars focused more on the fragility of democracies than the implications of a regime change
The fact that throughout Songbirds and Snakes Snow has so many chances to choose to be good infuriates me. He's got so many people around him he cares about urging him and making sure he knows that he can be a good person despite his past and what he's been taught by the Capitol, like Tigris and Lucy Grey, and yet he still falls to his selfishness and keeps making choices to further himself and Panem just makes me hate him more. Suzanne Collins is such a good author, I'm so glad she made these books!
Same as Jimmy McGill throughout Better Call Saul’s prequel timeline. Should have taken Howard’s job offer.
Same! He had EVERY chance to be better and do better. And he always always chose not to.
And like I feel if he had stayed in the capital, he still would be horrible, but I feel like sending him to the district really was what cemented the whole Control thing but he had every opportunity and it just drove me insane! Such a good book.
I’m glad that since they made the movie that people are starting to read it and enjoy it more because when it came out it seemed like a lot of people hated it and I couldn’t understand why. Theywhy they wanted katniss etc. and I’m like no, they are done! This is different! This is interesting! Katniss and Peeta’s story is over. I hate when writers do a cash grab and start a new series when they closed the series off so well.
Like I want to know what causes tigress to truly truly hate snow. In the book she was disappointed but not near hating him.
It’s not that simple, though, is it? When doing the right thing means your family starves. Or when you’re being influenced by someone who wants you to continue their work.
Life is messy. It’s not black and white. There’s a lot of grey. What is good for one could be bad for another.
Like how Sejanus was always going to die. His need to help and lack of patience made him reckless. Whether Coriolanus recorded him with that Jabberjay or not, Sejanus would be caught doing one thing or another.
Morally, the right thing is for Coriolanus to stand by his friend. Right?
But the reality of the situation is more than that.
The societal ramifications of being hanged as a murder/traitor extend to family. Even though Coriolanus was not involved in the treasonous acts, even if his direct connection to a murder or two was never discovered, guilt by association is the law of the land. Arlo and Lil proved that well enough.
The Plinths have money and can buy themselves back into good graces no matter what Sejanus did. The Snows were barely surviving as it was and would surely die if their reputation was tarnished so.
So, Coriolanus’ decision was between Sejanus dying alone, or for Sejanus, Coriolanus, Tigris, and Grandma’am to all die.
Coriolanus couldn’t will himself into doing the morally right thing. No matter how many chances he got. His circumstances wouldn’t allow it. Now, if someone had intervened and he wasn’t worrying about everything all the time, well… Lucy Gray may not have won, Coriolanus and Sejanus may well not have gone to 12, and Coriolanus would be an entirely different person.
The lesson is that it is not only OUR choices that shape our lives. OUR choices and the choices of other shape our lives, and we in turn shape others.
We need to be mindful of ourselves and watch out for those around us. We never know when our choices could prevent someone from going down a road like that. And vice versa.
The butterfly effect, so to speak.
@@FutureBereaAlumn I agree completely about Sejanus. Like absolutely. Honestly, a lot of snow is in monologue about him. Turning privilege to tragedy and adversity really stuck with me. But not regarding him it’s more about his character along the way. I love morally grey characters, and at the beginning, I could see snow kind of grey but as it went on, it became obvious that he was just evil like even taking the money from the envelope instead of giving it to his family. Reading about his evolution was honestly fascinating.
But I’m with you 100% on Sejanus. But with the rest like since we don’t know how he evolves at the ending, because Finnick reveals what he does to the tributes and all of that and everything to stay in power I can’t really agree with you there. One reason I can’t is because we simply just don’t know because it isn’t written. But also because there are other opportunities where he could’ve done good, instead of keeping this horrible punishment in perpetuity going. It’s obvious highbottom was passively sabotaging the games. I mean sabotage is too strong of a word, but he’s doing everything he can to not make them unpopular because you know that man is smart enough to know way so that they would be popular, and then snow comes along and pops it off. Like yes, snow’s circumstances were horrific, but ultimately at some point he stopped thinking about his family and only thinks of himself and what he can do to stay in power.
Very interesting comment and good dialogue. I enjoyed it greatly!
@@FutureBereaAlumnYeah but he didn’t have to snitch on his homie and break the bro code to become an officer to make the money to help out his broke family lol
I think the idea of Coin is that she viewd Panem as rotten not because of how horrificly optessive it was, but because the wrong people (aka not her) were in charge
Narcissism?
YESSS
Donald Sutherland was a great casting choice for Snow. A truly memorable performance, both sinister and affable to the point you can see him as a charismatic leader and a cruel tyrant.
@@GregJamesMusic That is awesome. Always great to see actors that are a real class act. Reminds me of the way Willem Dafoe described his role as an actor:
“I’m not interested in doing a job, I’m interested in helping an artist do what they need to do”. W attitude for an actor to have.
i absolutely love his performance, his little mannerisms like smiling in a genuinely friendly way while being threatening were so enjoyable to watch. correcting coin misquoting him (on TV lmao) makes me laugh every time 😭 i really feel like im watching a real human guy with consistent behavior
@@AlienZizi”look at them, they’re holding hands. I want them dead” had no right being that funny
The only two roles I’ve ever seen Donald Sutherland in (personally, obviously he’s done other work I just haven’t seen it) are as President Snow and as Mr. Bennett in the ‘05 Pride & Prejudice. What wildly different roles lmao 😂
Also, he has great eyebrows.
“It is the things we love most that destroy us.”
Snow is such a great villain. He’s really the embodiment of the quote from the Dark Knight: “you either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”
😂😂iamapancake It was quoted by Harvey Dent, Harvey"Two Face" Dent
Snow was never a hero, he was a child who never truly grew up after his mother died. He never really loved Lucy in a genuine way, he only loved what she could give him.
I generally don't believe that quote. I consider it an excuse.
😂😂@@YDKJ07the movie is called the "The Dark Knight"
errr I don't think so, he was never a hero, he was following his own ambitions and using others to achieve it, and not even love changed him.
I love when Katniss shoots Coin instead and Snow bursts out laughing. It's like he's saying "She did it, the absolute madwoman!" Even getting torn apart by the mob, he dies with glee.
personally his relationship with Lucy is something interesting to me, because thats as far as “love” that Snow can feel. however the movies fail to show, how he treated lucy in his inner thoughts. the way he talks about her in the books is honestly very disturbing, when she sings about her ex, he was very mad, because in his mind she was “his girl”. he was extremely possessive of her, and wanted to own her. i think this has to do a lot with his background, he grows up as a person, in a world full of the richest people in the country, being told that he needs to keep the family name. He feels a sense of ownership towards her, he cannot love in a selfless way, like Katniss and Peeta do with each other. They are both different types of people, he wants to have control, while she is very free spirited. not to mention that at the end of the book, he thinks that his relationship with her "made him weak".
Yeah, Coriolanus's feelings towards her in the film seem somewhat more genuine.
However, there's still the possessiveness which takes hold towards the end. And more than that, the movie version seems to view Lucy Gray as his "reward" for doing good things.
Like, he's not doing good for its own sake, but because he thinks it will "win" him a happy ever after with Lucy Gray.
Coriolanus Snow is capable of love, at least for a while. But it's a selfish, toxic kind of love.
@@MrImastinker he tells lucy, “after everything i did for you” there is a sense of entitlement he feels towards her, because he was her mentor, he did everything for her., in his mind she owes him. There is also even Suzanne collins saying multiple times, he loved her. that doesn’t mean it’s healthy
@@mercuriology45
Bingo.
from someone who didn't read the book, the movie left me with the impression that snows #1 priority in life was taking care of his family back home, fell in love with Lucy but that wasn't going to prioritize over his family so he wanted her to come back with him. and then felt betrayed by the end of the movie that fueled a new hatred for people. I also viewed Lucy as the possessive one for trying to kill him, the movie made it look like she was upset that he choose his own family over her and did the whole "if I can't have you no one can" thing
@@agent5758 which is exactly not true at all lol. But then again the movie doesn’t really show snow and how unhinged he is. a lot of the “good actions” he does are to save himself, not because its genuine. in the movie we see him sad about seanjanus, book snow was worried about if he would get caught or not.
in his internal dialogue, he talks about wanting Lucy in the capitol, because he “knows where she is” he wants to control her. Lucy already saw him as someone who’s capable of ending others lives. snow knew she was the only one who knew about what he had done, he needed to get rid of her, so he wouldn’t face consequences. She knew this, and she was afraid for her life. if you genuinely wanna understand his character, you should read the book.
"Fear does not work as long as there is hope" one of the Best villains
Actually there has to be a little hope or fear doesn't work. Which I think is what he says to the game maker who ran Katnis's games which is worse( if you think about it).
It’s because of the fact that a people without hope to cling onto will quickly realize the reality of their situation and rebel since they have nothing left to lose. On the other hand, when hope is provided people will destroy themselves and others over the slimmest of chances that their lives will get even a little better.
@@AmericanAdvancement You wrote what I was trying to get across in a clearer way. Thank you.
The writing of Hunger Games feels so connected to reality because what happens in the books is very emblematic of how warfare and revolutions work in real life. Snow and Coin follow similar paths: they start off well, and power is placed in their hands for valid reasons. Regardless, they both gradually begin to fall prey to the desire for more power, leading them to instill pain and terror across Panem for their own benefit. It doesn't matter how good or righteous the cause is, because power can always fall into the hands of someone who ends up craving more of it. The French Revolution is a good example: the people revolted against their lavish, unstable monarchy by dethroning and executing the monarchs, but the wrong revolutionaries gained the upper hand and used their power to execute anyone who opposed them. It's a tale as old as time, and Collins writes it perfectly.
Unfortunately the vast majority of revolutions follow this cycle of escalating violence and the only exception that I can think of is the American revolution. People begged George Washington to be their king, but he refused and stepped down after two terms. This solidified the peaceful transfer of power that the nation enjoys today.
@@AmericanAdvancement Yes. The American Revolution is an example of a revolution done right. The people leading the revolution succeeded in their efforts to topple the monarchical power, and they elected a person to power who knew how corrupt the monarchy was, resulting in him directly rejecting it and opting to take a lesser form of power.
They start "well" upon their OWN causes, I think it's important to take that into account their own selfishness
@@Anvie458 Yes. Power can corrupt a person, but it ultimately comes down to the person himself. Is he willing to be the leader needed, or is he willing to become just as bad as the previous leader who was overthrown?
Unfortunately, though, this is also a narrative often pushed by the people in power about grassroots revolutions even when it's NOT true. Not saying it's never happened, but there are plenty of revolutions led by people very genuinely seeking to create a better world for their people, and what we'll hear about it in the western global north world is "they're evil dictators!!"... because the people in power don't want us to know that there ARE revolutions succeeding.
No government is ever perfect, there are always going to be challenges and mistakes made, but it's very obvious that there's one side who benefits from the misconception that "revolutions are frequently led by people just as bad as those they're trying to overthrow", and it's not the side of the people.
That's the only reason I'm not quite so crazy about the way the Hunger Games story ends. Again, not because there's anything wrong with it in a vacuum - it's not like Coins have never existed in real life - but it just concerns me when that's the *prevailing* way revolutionary leaders are depicted.
I think the reason why Snow was unable to develop much empathy for the people of the poorest district is because he was in a position of power. He was encouraged to lord his authority over those people. Also, may have been sociopath. He looked like he was enjoying most of his activities
i didnt get sadism from him in the prequel, but definitely no empathy either, only calculating. even when he knew something was wrong, he found it annoying when sejanus spoke out against it. a man of no morals
At last. One of my favorite irredeemable villains. Apart from President Coin, he is the most cruel and despicable individual of the Hunger Games. I love how much fun he has being so vicious and the style and presentation he had to himself. I always look to him when writing an authoritarian antagonist.
The thing I like most about Snow is that he wasn't what you'd expect when he was cornered, he didn't cower or try to cut deals, he accepted his fate, and just like Roger Smith once said, he didn't win, but he could spoil, so he spoiled Coins victory on his way out 😂😂
"We can't be winners, but we can be spoilers."
Snow could be quite petty at times in both the original trilogy and his solo book, so going out spoiling Coin’s moment absolutely fits 💀💀
"Fear does not work as long as there is hope" - President Snow
"And Katniss Everdeen is giving them hope"
Pretty sure hunger games is not set in an alternate timeline but 300 years in the future after earth suffered an ecological collapse
"glamours brutality" is essentially the entire series in a nut shell
His Rose symbolism not only projects power and his seeming omniscience. But it also invokes another monster of a man: Stalin's love for the cultivation and care of flowers.
I know I wrote an article-long comment before about Snow, but one thing to also know about him. You know how in the books he says that he and Lucy Gray were having their own Hunger Games, and how in at least the film he realizes that the whole world is an area? That is the point of the series of three books, and their four other film adaptations: that the Games are just a symbol of the oppressive violence of entrenched power. And what happens in the third book and fourth movie of the series? When the Capitol is being invaded again by Rebels, Snow turns the entire Capitol into one great arena: where he releases Mutts that have human DNA into the sewers and in all other places.
It's the last ditch effort of a madman, and a spiteful one. He basically took what Tigris called "bomb time" in the novel when he and her like so many others were caught in the Capitol Bombing of the First Rebellion, internalized it, then internalized the Game he found himself and Sejanus in, that he extended to his time with Lucy Gray in District Twelve, and not only improved on the quality of the cruelty of the Games as a Game Maker himself under Doctor Gaul's teachings but expanded throughout the Capitol. Panem was already a Hunger Game but now the Capitol was explicitly so: a vast arena dedicated to one man's lust for power, fear of losing that power, and inflicted his pain on generations culminating into make the whole city a death trap. It was beautiful, and horrible all at the same time even *before* The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes existed, and it is more all the more terrifying and fitting after Collins made it. Snow really was a product of his birth and his culture, and boy did he ever come back to bite all of Panem.
Say what you will about my boy, but he went out looking the protagonist in the eye while they shared a "lol that was nuts" moment.
TLTR: Panem's dieselpunk aesthetic could be a style choice instead of the result of an alternate timeline. In the book, Snow's Grandmam had prejudices but didn't actively influence him to commit atrocities beyond what the Capitol wanted and her views were also very personal with the death of her son. Tigris Snow, his cousin, was important on his humanity as well in addition to Lucy Gray. Snow himself was entitled but struggled between selfishness and survival in a poisonous social hierarchical structure. He absolutely *hated* the Mockingjay. He *loved* or thought he needed control. And he made his choices accordingly based on pride, PTSD, grand manipulation, and not seeing any other way. It doesn't excuse him, but it's fascinating to see the seeds of the White Rose he would become while struggling with a conscience that you watch slowly disappear. Read on more if you have the time.
LR: I like the idea that this is an alternate reality. Conversely, however, sometimes you have trends that come back into popularity. I could see, for instance something like Panem or the Capitol greatly respecting the dieselpunk aesthetics of the 1920s-40s along with some of their ideologies. I am also thinking about Gattaca, that adopted similar aesthetics too and it was supposed to be the future of our world.
As for Snow, I don't think his Grandmam directly told him to use these brutal methods at all. I think she hated the Rebels for the deaths of her family. Crassus was her son who got sniped in the head by a Rebel. And she could barely take care of Snow and Tigris, and she probably had an idea of what was happening to them. She just thought her darling boy, the heir scion, was simply worthy and entitled to be the President of Panem: which did enable him. And his love of roses came from her, and her garden: which was basically her life. Then you have Tigris, his cousin, as a positive force in his life. This girl dropped out of the Academy, went into sex work for a time, and lost her chance at love because of her family's lack of resources to take care of him as basically her own surrogate brother or son. Aside from Lucy Gray, Tigris and her own compassion and distaste for the Games could have swayed him too. Unfortunately, it did not. In the film, she flat out says he took after his mother more than his colder father, but changed her mind at the end.
Snow himself was complicated because, as The Vile Eye explained, he was a product of his environment. The entitlement of the Snow family combined with losing that power and the perceived unfairness of it, along with being poor and nearly dying and getting beaten as a child, having a flu that could have killed him, and then having to constantly keep up appearances -- to fake it until you make it -- and then deal with a Dean who has it out for him and could have helped him and even challenged his views, but instead used every moment he had to undermine him -- is where he starts. Grandmam Snow is just drinking from the Panem Koolaid but genuinely does love her grandson, and Tigris is there as the better angel on his shoulder. Then this adolescent gets exposed to the power of the Games and the mentorship and Dr. Gaul's terrifying manipulations. He does just see Lucy Gray as a means to an end for him to get that Plinth Prize, but you see him internally wrestling with it. Snow is selfish and always seeking to survive and live up to his family name in the beginning, but then he actually does care about Lucy Gray and feels ashamed of thinking her in that way. At the same time, she does become a possession in his mind. Is it the result of an immature brain from a position of entrenched power? He also admits in the novel that he does get obsessed with details and he will over-fixate: which he also admits to himself is a fault.
The selfishness is a part of him but a lot of people that age he was have these traits. But he was also in a toxic environment that was also in a lot of ways the only environment. The thing is, there is one thing I think The Vile Eye might have missed which is Snow's defining trait.
Control.
He needs to have control. He thinks that's why the Hunger Games exist because humanity without control will be destroyed. But without control, he will also be destroyed. Here is a man who came from a family that wanted for nothing, lost everything, had his own livelihood and life dependent on a man -- Dean Highbottom -- who hated him, and a psychopathic mad scientist --- Dr. Gaul -- who was moulding him and using all the branches and the powers of Panem to do so, whose parents were taken from him, and when he looked for alternatives? What did he have? There was no Rebellion that he knew of. Dr. Gaul was always watching along with the Capitol. Sejanus, for all that treachery was awful, would have taken Snow down with him just by association. The Capitol would have found him if they honestly wanted to do so. There was, as far anyone knew, nothing North of District 12. No one knew that District 13 still existed aside from the Capitol High Command. At best, he would have been on the run with Lucy Gray until potentially running out of supplies. At worst, he would have been hunted down -- or if his crimes hadn't been discovered, he would have had to live in the Capitol in a lesser position, or in the Districts subject to someone else's authority and power. And Snow's mentality would not allow for that. He has seen what happens when you let someone or something else have power over you. I think this is where he makes that error, where he can't see the difference between love and power. Love isn't a weakness or a vulnerability, but that is how he internalized it.
It's one reason I think he *hates* the Mockingjay and loves the Jabberjay. The Jabberjay is a mutt created by the Capitol to record people's voices and reveal Rebels. Even if they had failed in their task, they are dependable for doing what they are programmed or engineered to do. The Mockingjay is a mutation that happened when the Jabberjay -- that was supposed to die out ala Jurassic Park I style -- bred with other birds and mimics noises and songs by their own choice. The Mockingjay also seems to symbolize music and art to Snow: which he admits he doesn't understand as it isn't straightforward thinking in his mind. He didn't like nuance in the beginning. He didn't like something he couldn't find tangible, or couldn't see right in front of him. There was no clarity there, in his mind. There was no control.
It is also pretty telling, in the book, that he loses his mother's rose scented powder cake while swimming away from Lucy Gray with his snake bite, and he has to use his father's cold metal compass to get him back. And when he goes to retrieve his belongings from Dean Highbottom, all he has left is just his mother's empty compact. I think it's interesting that while the Hunger Games happen in an arena, and its supposed a controlled little war, in reality -- and Snow even notes this when he is trying to go after Lucy Gray in the forest with regards to the two of them -- the whole country is one great Hunger Games. And Snow's price to win was his mother's influence, his loved ones, and even his own name. In the Epilogue, there is no Coriolanus anymore, which is how we -- the readers -- see him referred to in the narrative. It is just Snow.
Perhaps he could have made other choices. Or other elements could have been different. But then, he wouldn't be the same person and we wouldn't have the villain that we know today.
Anyway, there is so much more but if you had the patience to read through this far too long post, thank you. If you reached the end, the odds really were in your favour.
Donald Sutherland was absolutely stellar. He made the character so much more complex than just a simple evil villain. He did do horrible things, but he justified them for the betterment of the Capitol. Interestingly I love how Coin was his mirror, they both were leaders who resorted to doing truly evil things while justifying their actions.
"Whatever game you think you're playing, those out there are not playing it with you" This man knows how to send chills down your spine. Your content always gets better vile! You're amazing!❤❤❤❤❤
I honestly love how Suzanne Collins intentionally left what kind of extinction event led to Panem vague. It could have been famine, it could have been war, it could have been a global flood, it could have been climate change (in my opinion, all four are viable, especially the flood, considering how the map of America/Panem looks slightly smaller than it does in real life). We may never know what led to the destruction of the rest of the world, or how North America survived, but it sure would've been one hell of an extinction event.
im attracted to the famine idea (it could be a combination tbf) because yes the series is literally called the hunger games lmao, but its also a theme in every single book. food is important, both katniss and snow think and worry about food often, and list almost everything they eat. its like a lack of food traumatized entire generations and is just part of their culture now
If you haven’t already, it would be the best time to make a bio of the multiple played but underpaying, wealthy, cold-hearted miser Ebenezer Scrooge, who hated his family, Christmas and, of course, Muppets.
But he becomes a good guy.
@@JohnSmith-im8qt Just because Scrooge was a hero at the end of the story doesn't mean he was one at the start.
That would be the bleeping and bleeding best villain reveal ever lol!😱😂❤️🕛🤬🤬🤢🩸
Still a villain for more then1/2 of the Christmas movies and book versions lol!of achirstmas Carol!🤮🤢🩸🤬😖😱😂🕛🤬
He(Scrooge!😱😂🤬🕛)oncethreathend genocide of the poor peoples of the world on pre Christmas Eve!
Lucy Gray isn't back to haunt him. Sujanus is!! Lucy Gray never wanted to rebel or fight she just wanted to sing and live. Sujanus wanted to change things and protect the districts
He is a sort of more elegant kind of evil. My all time fav Snow scene is the mockingjay 2 scene where he and other capitol dignitaries are sitting around a table toasting the good times were about to end for them. Snow, was a realist. Cold rational and aware there was going to be no “Steiner” who would come in to save the day. He knew it was over
I read somewhere the initial script for the hunger games movie placed the events at 300 years in the future. So I always have placed the events of the original books/movies around 2310
There isn’t an official timeline, the 300 years part comes from a draft of the hunger games films. What is known is that it’s in the future l.
I would have to go back and reread to confirm, but I never got the impression that Snow was arrogant, or that he thought that he was in control. Rather, he always came across to me as someone doing everything he could to delay the inevitable. I don't think he chose to be honest with Katniss because she couldn't hurt him, I think he believed that she was simply more likely to hurt him by accident than on purpose because of how volatile the entire situation was. He's always very much aware that his entire world could fall apart. Even his symbol, the rose, is associated with his own mortality, given that his perfume is used to cover up scars he got from poisoning himself.
That actually seems like a decent metaphor for his relationship with Katniss as well: he isn't so arrogant as to believe he can't be hurt, he is simply willing to hurt himself (and his those around him) as much as it takes to avoid losing control, because for his entire life he's lived with the likelihood of getting killed if he doesn't kill first.
i just spent the last week listening to all 4 audiobooks and i think youre dead on. i think by trying to delay the inevitable he either manifested it, or hastened it (i think theres a chance katniss wouldnt have joined the rebels without all the pressure and terror he put on her). really, when i think about it it really seems like a dumb, maybe paranoid course of action by him, to beef with katniss like that. has this tactic just always worked for him and katniss coincidentally didnt conform to that? was he so triggered by all the reminders of lucy gray that he couldnt keep a cool head lol? or am i the dumb one for thinking all this
I think you've put more thought into Panem's origin than the creators of the franchise ever did, and I really enjoyed listening to it too.
Knowing how thorough Suzanne Collins is im sure she knows the whole history, and chooses to leave it a mystery
Suzanne is not the same as JKR.
He definitely didn’t, Suzanne Collins hasn’t written out explicit details for various reasons I assume. The vile eye is wrong from the jump assuming Panem is the result of an alternate universe of WW2 going wrong
@@sia6045 Panem existing in post-TNO timeline is my headcanon now
@@iloveyourunclebob Thank god she isn't, JKR is a terf who wrote a series of novels littered with racist and anti-semetic allegories. And for whatever vision she might've exhibited with her stories, she has completely compromised her integrity as a writer and artist by disrespecting her already published work with halfhearted afterthoughts. In an attempt to appear more progressive then she actually was. Collins actually had fairly effective literary parallels to colonialism and capitalism. Alongside rich world building and particularly impressive character building and development. (While also taking into account the demographic she was writing for. And her prequel was actually decent lol)
The rose, a plant known mostly for its flowers, is more notorious for the thorns it hides. Snow isn't a fool. He knows how to get people to look a different direction to hide the reality. I also got the impression that this is a man who is not used to being challenged. People like that tend to use violence as a response and oh boy does he ever. His contrast with Coin is so solid.
One thing I like about Snow is how spineless he becomes with his enemies. He poisons them, but also poisons himself and then takes an antidote for the poison, which is why he has sores in his mouth and coughs up blood. Spineless way of handling his opponents, but from his point of view, him also taking the poison evens out the playing field, but it's still cowardly as he still lives while the enemies die. That's what makes him a villain though, but what makes Snow great is that when he does his evil acts...he thinks he is right in doing them. Let me know if I got anything wrong here 😅.
Really enjoyed this episode. Snow has been one of my favourite villains for quite some time. I think it’s time we get an episode about Mike Ehrmantraut from Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul.
I think he said he was done with BB content
I know you touched on her at the end, but I think it would be really interesting to see a more in-depth analysis of President Coin. I feel like she has enough content for a video
I think the villain of the film Sunshine would be a fantastic video. Plus with Cillian Murphy as lead it has modern relevance given Oppenheimer
I was so excited when I saw this video on my recommended videos list. Coriolanus Snow is one of my favorite villains. Loved the video, the speculation as to Panem's origins, and the analysis of Snow himself. Great work as always, Vile Eye!
Katniss claiming that war and violence is something that no one ever benefits from is probably one of the dumbest things I ever read considering the whole book revolves around an elite class benefitting from just that...
"War benefits no one"
The viking laughs as he eats your food in your house, enjoying your wife after he war and violenced you....
A suggestion:
Analyzing Evil: Park Yeon-jin from The Glory.
And here I thought the most pragmatic reason for the Hunger Games existence was as a form of oppressive population control: A regular culling, cause of death, that prevents the Districts from having overwhelming numbers to overpower militant police forces through sheer mob aggression alone
One child a year does not work as population culling
That would be possible except that, at least from the Hunger Games we're aware of, only 2 tributes from each district is chosen for this culling. 23 people out of millions won't make any sort of dent. Even if you add them all up through the years, 23 (22 for the 74th, as Peeta and Katniss survived) people for 74 years, only 1,701 people died in the hunger games. In the grand scheme of things, that's a drop in the bucket.
@marlaynas1529 1,725 people actually, as the second quarter quell had twice as many tributes.
Mr. Sutherland was open about how he hoped "these movies DO inspire people to start a revolution." Because he wanted people to see how we already have The Capitol (hollywood) taking advantage of our children and forcing them to do horrible things to each other while we sit idly by.
He wanted to play a villain that wasnt a villain who enjoyed being one, but who had to be one, and he wanted that to inspire people to look at our society with more attention to see that we were already there and they were just showing us an entertaining version of it in an extreme.
He wanted us to push back.
This mfer said “Hollywood.”
Hollywood? Do you not mean Congress, The supreme court.
@tymera He said Hollywood because it's what he knows. Lots of sexual abuse, murder and perversion. Same happens in government, in regular workplaces, etc, but he's an actor, not a politician.
Really enjoyed songbirds and snakes both as a book and as a movie. The creation of a villain from an objectively good person is peak storytelling when it is done correctly.
He was never objectively good did you actually read the book?
@@TheBombasticFatRat yeah I did read the book, and I see your point. Maybe more of a person who could have been good or at least neutral but his ambition leads him to discard his humanity
This is why I think 17-year-old Lorde was a genius with the writing and making of her song "Yellow Flicker Beat" for the film(s) back in 2014 (they're empowering and poignant lyrics, even just in general).
Nah his relationship with lucy was more complex than just "loving and affectionate", even at the good times
My personal.suggestions for future Vile Eyes:
- Silco, from Arcane (the doomed revolutionary)
- Frank Underwood, from House of Cards (the cold-hearted manipulator)
- Agammemnon, from Troy (the spoiled ruler)
- Adrian Vauclair, from Shadowrun Dragonfall (the lost hero)
I’d love to see Frank!!
I love Frank
Father from FMA Brotherhood
Silco would be a great video tbh
Is it just me or is silco not actually that bad?
Ok he creates a weapon that harms his people, but when considering the oppression he expects from piltover, hearing they are developing a new wonder tech, one that has horrific potential as a weapon, who wouldn't sacrifice anything to build a counter weapon, in his view his people NEED a way to fight back
Hey Vile. I would love to see you cover the world of Stray. It is a really unique take of a shelter turned into a prison.
Suggestions
1.Hal from Megamind
2.Omniman from invincible
3.Kreese and Silver from Covra Kai
4.Homelander from the Boys
Never thought of Panem as an alt-history, more as an post-apocalyptic future dystopia, but the way you laid it out was fairly convincing. Especially the part about Panem (or its predessesor) as nuclear bombing the rest of the world to prevent external threats - makes 'em even worse than the superpowers in 1984 lmaooo. Making me rethink my headcanonon out here!
Because it is a post-apocalyptic future dystopia.
His alternate WW2 idea doesn't make sense at all.
It's also contradicted by what Katniss tells us in the book.
I feel The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes has become quite the underrated story. It’s a very interesting and well-written villain story that doesn’t fall into similar tropes that most villain ‘origin’ stories do.
One of the best and most terrifying villains. Terrifying because of how realistic his change of path and rise to power feels. We were all cheering on Katniss to take out this despicable man.
"Fear does not work as long as there is hope." He knew this from experience and this is why he feared Katniss so much. So well written.
I think what I like best about Snow and what makes him a great villain is, he truly doesn't lie or make stupid excuses. What he says is exactly what you get.
He admits he will kill children, but not just do do it. There's a reason and he will flat out tell you the reason.
Coin will do it and then lie to your face about why she did it.
I became addicted to your videos 😂❤ + suggestions for upcoming videos
1 Gwyn from dark souls
2 sephiroth from final fantasy
3 Fang yuan from reverend insanity
4 Rick from Rick and morty
5 Evil in hp lovecraft's Stories
6 jesse pinkman from breaking bad
I hope Frank Gallagher from Shameless gets an episode sometime soon.
Yes. The evilness of being just a huge selfish pos and growing your victims.
Say what you want about Frank but calling him evil is stupid. The show makes it abundantly clear that there isn't really good and bad people in the show, just people.
Frank is most definitely a shitty person, but he was never inherently evil. It's not as if he actively wished his family harm, he was just never there for them
I finished the book and immediately played your video, thank you for not spoiling the movie, only referencing the book, excited to see how the movie portrays this complex and crazy character
When The Boys show is over, I can't wait to see Vile Eye to make analyzing evil for Homelander
Same! But analyzing all of the villains of The Boys would be great in separate videos. Homelander is certainly not the only villain, although everyone seems to remember him the most.
@@tamiwatchesstuffbecause he's the scariest
Between him and Ramsey, I'm sensing a theme here! Wonder if we'll get Stripe and the gremlins this month with Gremlins being a Christmas movie, or Krampus from the movie by the same name
Have to say how much I appreciate your pacing in your videos. So often I find myself playing many such analytic videos at 1.25 or 1.5 because of dragging narration, you’ve hit a perfect balance of snappy without being rushed.
Mr Sutherland’s performances are so iconic that he inspired a Marvel comics character in Hellfire’s Club
This takes place around 2100 and on, so 2174 is when katness is in the games, It says something similar in the newest book
Another great vid from yours truly today! Can’t wait for the upcoming one on Sauron. Could a potential analysis be on Silco from Arcane?
Video ideas.
Analysing evil The governor. The Walking Dead.
Analysing evil Neegan. The Walking Dead.
This is a very good summary of the Hunger Games franchise and the evil part. Thank you so much for this!! Best wishes and merry Christmas to you from Iceland!!
Love how much detail and attention you bring into each of these videos. Keep it up!!
Just finished the franchise! Truly one of my favorites I’ve ever seen! Incredible work as always!
The hunger games is such an amazing series and still so relevant to this day. The different themes in these books: war and how far you can go to destroy the enemy reality tv the moderation of animals, extreme entertainment, the love triangle that represents ways you could look at the future: raging fire or a dandellion in spring.
What I like a lot about the movies is that we got more to see off Effie Trinket and her character development.
I've been waiting for this video for so long. Thank you for finally publishing it ❤🎉
I've been waiting for this one for a long time. Thanks, Vile!
I'm not a Hunger Games fan so idk if it's explained in the lore but I'm kinda curious what's going on in the rest of the world. Like are Europe, Africa, Asia, etc. organized similar to North America or is everyone just like "wtf they doin over in Panem?"
Just saw this movie! I really enjoyed the film. Altbough i wish there was more on how Panem was rebuilt after the war and so on.
This channel has quickly become one of my all-time favorites. I love this content.
This has got to be the best video essay on the hunger games on RUclips. Incredibly informative and immersive !!
The colors are lovely of course, but nothing says perfection like white 🌹
My favorite quote of his
Love your videos. They are so insightful. Can you do one for Kratos? He is a brilliant example of an anti-hero in games. Going from the absolute worst (best) kind of Spartan warrior to a more heroic warrior.
Id love to see you analyze the couple in Natural Born killers please! Amazing work as always, love listening while getting house work done makes it much more enjoyable ty.
Thank you for covering one of my recommendations
Happy holidays vile! Thanks For this amazing video as always! Suggestion: Henry Evans from the Good Son for the holiday spirit! Amd thanks for another amazing year of content🎄🎄🎄🎄🎄🎄🎄
Could you cover the Other Mother from Coraline?
Caught by surprise with this appearing on my recommended. Would be still interesting seeing a possible future analysis on Heihachi Mishima or Kazuya
Nice analysis. It would be nice to do a analyzing evil of Kitano from Battle Royale. That film and this film is somewhat similar.
Love this one. And another one I still would be a great one would be Nina Meyers from “24.” A cold and ruthless villain who deserves the title of evil.
Having just watched the songbird and snake , snow is a real piece of work
glad you finally covered President Snow along with the universe "The Hunger Games" and i'd like to add there that if you saw the 1978 remake of "Invasion of The Body Snatchers" at the ending of that movie it made me go it's now wonder President Snow is evil and what lead to the birth of "The Hunger Games" universe
ive been waiting for this!!!
Love your vids you are probably my favorite channel
OMG I WAS WAITING FOR THIS ONE THANK YOU!!!!
I literally just finished watching the movie and this came out soon as i was looking him up
Analyzing Evil: Lord Shen from the Kung Fu Panda franchise.
The way I see it, of why Snow laughs at the end of Mockingjay, is that he won. He won because he shows Katniss that even when he was already captured and defeated, he still has control over her. In a way, he indirectly gave Katniss a last command disguised as a warning, which was that Coin wanted to take his place, so Katniss had to forfeit her main goal, which was to kill him, in order to save Panem and by doing so, her chance to avenge all the tributes killed during 74th hunger games, 75th, district 12, her family, Peta and herself, is gone forever, because she has no choice. Katniss wouldn't want another tyrant to rise again and continue what Snow did, so she had no choice but to follow Snow's last command. Snow got away and killed two birds with one stone, took Coin's life and ruined Katniss's opportunity. I know, many of you would say that he was still lynched by the mob, but he didn't care because it wasn't Katniss who killed him and he outlived Coin by forcing Katniss to kill her, that's why he laughs. In a way, this also proves that in the end, Snow is far more evil than Coin, because he's the kind of evil that doesn't need to hide, but twists(corrupts) what is considered to be good, which in this case is "Truth", something that most people would never imagine that it can be used for evil, and he uses it masterfully for his own advantage.
I've been waiting for this.
I so enjoy your vids because not only are your research and philosophical explanations riveting and narrated wonderfully, but something about your voice.. while you give gravitas to the topic there is always an underlying optimism that you always include, no matter how dark the subject matter may be. Your breakdown of " I have no mouth yet I must scream" opened me up to a whole new literary and philosophical realm . You rock.
ANALYSISING EVIL TIGHTEN FROM MEGAMIND
For the next villain idea, sentinel prime from transformers 3 is a good one to cover. Great work btw 👍🏾
I've been looking forward for this
Mr. Vile!!! Once again Christmas came early!!! Snow is fascinating adversary and I’ve been looking forward to your take on him for awhile.
Please consider Odin from God of War: Ragnarok for a future analysis.
now im half tempted to read the book
I recommend it! The movie actually missed so much!
I would love for you to do The Beldam from Coraline, and Silco from Arcane
I'd love to see you analyze Agatha Trunchbull from *Matilda*
i had been waiting for this for a while good vid
An interesting view into Snow and his view of things. Kind of scary to think how "pragmatic" can be twisted so much to suit someone's wants.
As a thought, Kane from C&C might make an interesting character to look at.
This is gonna be a good one