Tesla V4 Supercharger // Megawatt Charging for the Masses
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 27 май 2024
- Is the Tesla V4 Supercharger Megawatt Charging for the Masses? I think so, and this video I'll explain the technology involved and why the Megacharger may be a separate product.
Patreon: / thelimitingfactor
Paypal: www.paypal.com/paypalme/limit...
Bitcoin: 3B3UXCZsnoPZxG6vYQ6npsF4TW8f5kK4LH
Teespring: teespring.com/stores/the-limi...
Reddit: / tlfbatteries
Twitter: / limitingthe
00:00 Intro
01:16 On Board Charging vs DC Fast Charge
02:42 Supercharger Version History
04:03 Why a Megacharger AND V4 Supercharger
09:16 1 MWh+ // Back of the Napkin Math
11:26 V4 Supercharger // Engineering for 5x Power
17:56 The Limiting Factors for Charge Rate
19:08 V4 Impact on Current Line-Up
20:05 V4 is for the LR Cybertruck // Min 500 kW Required
21:39 Elon’s 300kW Comment
22:14 Summary
Intro Music by Dyalla: Homer Said 
Наука
Point of Clarification: My read of the North American Charging Standard documentation is that all supercharger plugs will be compatible with all supercharger inlets. That is, there is both backwards and forwards compatibility. Some found this unclear in the video. However, of course, my view is that the megacharger will use a different plug/inlet. That is, the Semi will have a different plug/inlet combination to accomodate higher power.
Thanks for your continued work, Jordan. Wishing you all the very best for 2023. 🙂👍
Question: even if extra heat does not increase the resistance but the loses in the wire with base resistance still be there .. is possible tesla trying to bring resistance lower by keeping the conductor extra cool?
👋 THANKS JORDAN, 🤗 for sharing your thoughts 💭,your efforts are appreciated 😎💚💚💚
P.S. I hope you are surviving the weather here 🥶
Wouldn't make much sense to allow a Semi to potentially charge at a normal SC, taking up multiple stalls and not sure the cable could even reach. Also don't want passenger vehicles occupying more expensive stalls meant for trucks with room for an attached trailer, which require substantially more real estate.
Wow! Jordan is the hardest working team of researchers/producers/talent out there! So much depth and so clear and measured. FUN video. Thanks Jordan. I have so many comments I cant make them, All just going on from here, no complaints,,, FUN Best video yet!
😊 Yeah I thought it was fun too! Thanks for the kind words and glad you enjoyed it
THIS ONE an 18 I thought no boiling Mississippi red clay adding Eason salt to produce lithium th 2 combined are equal and n sparky123 it’s werld cause I have gathered friends an folks ta create Serenity City mobile charity chargers and tire repair cause until cars can communicate this technology is th LIMITING FACTOR of transportation …….gotta have charge an no flats ona semi
As a result of immersion cooling the insulation (most thermally fragile part) is put in a safer place where coolant protects it first. Also by loosening the conductor to insulator contact friction the cable will feel much more flexible given the conductor size! It will be easier to manage for the human. It can be kept above the coldest temperatures as well where the current cables get VERY stiff. Brilliant first principle work in many many ways. Ex coolant return temp closely directly measures conductor temp allowing maximizing of current limits!! and on and on
Great points! 🤠
Are you saying what I was thinking? The coolant loops can also be used as heating loops to protect against freezing, I.e. keep the whole thing permanently at the ideal temp winter and summer. Be nice on the hands too to plug in a warm charge cable
I just completed a road trip in winter and I noticed that the cable was much stiffer when I plugged it in than when I unplugged it.
@@GalenMatsonYes. Sometimes it is so cold that the non-thermally managed cable will not bend enough to stay in the charger storage socket even when I am putting it back and yes they are 'warmer' then then before I used it! I hate the idea that they fall out and hit the ground after I leave!!
The power capacity of these chargers just... melts the brain. These voltages and power ratings were previously a domain of qualified electricians with detailed training and certification. Making it safe is possibly the most impressive part of this whole system.
At the same time: The "v4" and "mega charger" are lightly the same tech, just scaled differently for different uses.
Great way to put it!
Yeah... I loved the emphasis on 'measly one megawatt'
Complete circuit is hot+ negative- AND GROUND
Just hope the power of these systems don’t melt the cables!
faster charging is more convenient in the first place.
but the more important thing is the amount of cars beeing charged by a single charger:
avg. 20 min charging -> 3 cars per hour
avg. 10 min charging -> 6 cars per hour
in my view this is very important as tesla is ramping car production very fast and charger deployment needs to keep up.
very good video by the way.
and dont forget to buy the dip.
I like how you tired everything together for an aha moment near the end. Things like bumping the v3 to 300kw. Like minimally helping the first four Tesla models decrease charging, but more likely helping the Cybertruck charge at faster v3 chargers.
It’s unbelievable the quality and quantity of work you do. You set a very very high standard for communities and you make youtube a great place. All this is in my opinion way undervalued today. Huge thanks for all your videos
Well-reasoned content, densely packed information flow requiring many stops of the vid to contemplate the info presented, per usual! I think your conclusions will prove out.
🔥🙌
Just a thought about how to chill the cable liquid coolant. Since Tesla already has an efficient heat pump design in the cars that works off the high voltage battery, it would be simple to use that and a plate heat exchanger to cool the circulating coolant in the charger pedestal. The power source would be the dc charging voltage which should be almost the same as the battery voltages present in the cars, so no redesign of the heat pump electrics is needed. The plate heat exchanger isolates the refrigerant from the cable coolant while efficiently removing the heat. A small radiator then transfers the heat from the refrigerant to the air. Because the heat pump is produced in large volumes for the cars, the unit cost would be lower than a new dedicated design.
simply stellar work, Jordan. Thank you so much! And wow, now at 95k subscribers? That's A LOT!
Thanks buddy! Yeah man! Woohoo. It's growing slower now that it's matured, but getting closer to 100k 🤠
also remember if the cybertruck is connected to 250kW it will be able to sustain the max charge rate for much longer into it's charge cycle shortening it's relative total charge time. That is the charge current profile will look much different.
Seemingly correct, however if V3 and below they would have to charge half the pack at a time and thus this comment would only be true if the pack were MORE than double the size of the current car packs. And to the degree it is more, Ie if it were 4x the kwh then you could hold the 250kw rate twice as long to your point.
In our data centers we use some immersion cooling with a dielectric non conductive coolant.
I've thought about this for a few mins, the heat exchanger for the coolant loops is probably a hermetically sealed container filled with Fluorinert or equivalent with the 2 loops running though it and the evaporator of a chiller
Thanks Jordan, very nice job! One minor detail: existing vehicles are 400V architecture, so at 250kW the cables pull 625A. Interestingly, that translates to a cable max of 312.5kW at 500V...which fits the 300kW narrative. But it may presently be limited to 250kW due to the power electronics, therefore requiring an upgrade for this capability. That also translate to 1.56MW at 1000V...which is substantial!
You also mention the thinner wires are a disadvantage for current, but the quantity has also increased. As long as the total cross section doesn't decrease, this should not be a disadvantage. In fact, the exact opposite is true: the surface area is increased, improving cooling which in turn increases max current. I suspect the individual wires will need to have some minimal insulation to protect from corrosion.
BTW, Reuters reported the chargers at Frito-Lay are 750kW. I suspect they may be using the V4 supercharger there for now, since it's available (and would give better use data in preparation for Cybertruck). It would be trivial to swap out the few of these that currently exist with Megachargers in the future.
Great points!
Pretty sure when I was looking at this that there’s two rating plates for v3 some of which are 500v, coudl it just be that there’s a dc / dc optimiser adjusting V / I on vehicle?
Well said ty
Jordan, you are correct in the difference. The mega charger specs and design was addressed in the NREL workgroup for commercial charging. Tesla was a main player and significant driver of the adopted technology.
Niiiiice! That's awseome to hear!
Thank you for the clarification! When people were talking about it being backwards compatible, I assumed they meant newer vehicles with the 1000 volt system would still be able to plug into the 500 volt for either supercharging somehow, or AC, but if it is truly both can plug into both, that's amazing!
Good analysis, Jordan. Thanks. Immersion cooling is tricky. Tesla is needs to be absolutely certain the cables don't spring a leak.
Jordan, might be good to think about doing a "State of Limiting Factors" video every January to sum up where the tech had been and where it could headed. You cover so much info and in wonderful depth, it could be useful to viewers to have a summary episode looking back and then giving some possibilities for the year or so to come. The pace of change seems to be ramping up in the EV industry.
Just a thought.
Th welcomed improvement will only get better and better and better………… one day my Tesla hater bus will be electric HA
Great research Jordan. Proud to be a patreon member. The Frito-lay plug uses the a prototype iteration of the Char-in plug for semis. The next (and approved) generation is a triangular looking plug. I believe Tesla is only delivering to Frito Lay and a handful of other customers until they fully qualify the truck. It sounds like Tesla may keep many semis internally or a while and could use/test any plug it wants.
Depending on the Frito Lay use case, do you think that Tesla would refit the semis delivered with the approved Char-in plug. If short haul where trucks return to base may not need retrofits, but those that go long haul might want to take advantage of having an open standard plug.
Great point! This is something I had to think about a bit when writing the video.
That depends, will the charin plug have immersion cooling?
In my view, it will take not just a specialized cable, but a specialized plug.
@@thelimitingfactor The CHARIN plug is capable of over 3 MW, per your video. That should be sufficient power regardless of cooling method, but I would expect it to use liquid cooling.
Good point have ur people tell they’re people send em a tweet
I don't need or want faster charging on my Model Y. When I do on occasion use a SuperCharger I just plug it in walk away to the bathroom, and get a bite to eat which takes me around 30 minutes when the car tells me it has reached 80% I then have to gather the family and head back to the car this is a 20 to 30 minute task.
If the car took 5 or 10 minutes to charge I would like a gas car have to wait with the car before then finding a parking spot and then going to for the bathroom and snck.
With AC you can just tell it to charge at a slower rate. I do it regularly. I believe you can do the same with DC. Whether this is a good idea depends on how busy the superchargers are. The few superchargers I've been to around here are never that busy. YMMV.
You mean that you eat and use the bathroom while traveling? How odd lol
@@StormyDog I've never seen a choice to "throttle" DC charging in our S; if we need more time before returning to the car we usually just up the %SoC target a bit...
YES! Another video from you before this year is over. Thanks for your incredible work and network that has brought us so much important information this year. I think your channel will become even more a must watch in 2023 as Tesla reveals the power of what they are creating.
Best of everything Jordon for 2023!
💪🤠
Keeping coolant loops from seeing a voltage gradient is probably not a hard problem. You could just use two loops with two pumps, two reservoirs etc. Or you could use a non-ionic antifreeze and continuously deionize it in order to use one loop that splits with suitable isolation runs. My guess is two loops is cheaper, simpler and more robust.
Edit: I was being silly by assuming water-based. Something like Paratherm NF or similar nonpolar low-melting high-flash nonconductive organic liquid would do just fine, and stand off 1 kV with only mm of isolation. It would be somewhat easier to maintain non-conductive and non-corrosive.
What if th coolant was th current carrying conductor???
@@michaelstarkey9745 Only a liquid metal could have low enough resistivity for that to be realistic. And not just any liquid metal, a nearly pure liquid metal, so galinstan and NaK are out. Mercury and warm Gallium are options. Practically just gallium. It's not as impractical as I thought, but I still don't think it would be more practical than copper wires immersed in an ordinary coolant.
I'm guessing two loops as well, as hinted by the diagram. The coolant goes down the positive conductor and into the handle/pin connection, then back through one of the return tubes to the "positive" fan/radiator. Then another separate loop for the negative side. Only problem is you have to keep the radiators electrically isolated from everything, assuming they're metal. Maybe they'll use a large plastic radiator.
A voltage wtf Eva gradient really
I think I've changed my mind. Something like Paratherm NF, a dielectric heat transfer fluid, would do just fine. Just a few mm would be all the isolation needed. If two loops, probably two radiators, but one loop could be made robust also.
Great presintation. Reminds me of extensive lectures and copious notes. You did so much to give me this. I am greatfull.
Very nice presentation Sir. It was very easy to soak up the detail you presented and your reasoning behind the various standards and charging regimes. Thank you.
By Cooling the wire inside the wire it will also cool the connector connected to the car just like the side cooling the Battery exterior and interior also will be cooled. 😘
This is awesome, so much technical information. Over my head. Great work
Professional and well done! You impress me and teach me with every video!
😊
Felt like I was watching a modern episode of Popular Science on PBS, especially the outro. Great job!
Jordan, you continue to impress with deep research. Thank you.
There are massive synergies if all chargers deployed can be used by the whole fleet. Compatibility of all V4 with the existing fleet is the best way to finance a massive rollout of megawatt charging. That's how you can deploy chargers that only benefit Cybertrucks and Semi trucks. You have the fleet using them from day one. 1.2MW is enough for Semis in most cases. Maybe there will be a few megawatt chargers that go beyond eventually, but for a few years, NACS is enough.
Good point I’m thinkin v5 or v6 consisting of wireless inductive megnetic resonance charging -disclaimer not stock advice …I know nuthin!!
Makes perfect sense and I agree this is the most likely configuration.
Given the smaller conductors in the V4 cable, it seems likely that if the V4 cable is the same diameter as V3, it would be lower weight.
You rock!
Thanks for shedding some light on this!
Good pace and timing. Not too long of a video! A++
Short vid is prevent brain over load from too much quality excellent information too fast
Most excellent review, thank you. And happy new year to you Jordan! 🙌🏻🎉🚀 From a proud patr(e)on.
I do think the Tesla Semi will have a different plug that can provide several MW, but I would not be surprised to see a secondary port that is the NACS standard, would allow companies that don't operate 24/7 to install V3 or V4 chargers on site for overnight charging. In addition this would allow a semi to use the standard supercharger network in an emergency. Or if tesla decided to put V4 chargers at some truck stops, the general public could use them too.
Using these charging graphs for the Model 3 is not optimal because they are based on not optimal charging sessions. Additionally to Amperage and Voltage limitations there are temperature limits that definitely kicked in in both sessions (at 20 and 30% respectively) that can either be in the battery pack (that's what I suspect here), the cables or the handle.
Also please note the different charging curves for the different battery chemistries, it unfortunately got slower with the newer models.
For all the different charging curves (and lots more data) I'll plug the tff forum and the "Model 3 Batteriewiki" thread. It's in German, but the data speaks for itself
Tesla is part of the MCS . The megacharger plug that was photographed was the early MCS prototype that will get changed once they finalise the standard. They have the problem of wanting to get the semi on the road but CharIN is dragging the chain as normal.
The V4 will definitely be different to the MCS.
Amazing work! Keep it up ✨️
Thank you for this video Jordan! I am arguing with over-optimistic users on CT Forums thinking their Cybertruck is going to charge at 1MW+ speeds. I use your videos as sources in all of my threads. Much appreciated!
Wow this is a great e plainer for people new to this stuff! You've yourself a new subscriber sir.
😊
Jordan is a hero for his level of understanding. He had had a really good track record with prior estimations on Tesla's future technologies so far. Great speculation!
I have thought about this and the simplest solution would be a duplexer with 2 separate charging circuits on board the Semi.
You could jack in 2 mega charger cables coming off of 2 charge units at the same time. You are basically split charging the pack.
You could start out with an adapter at first and then improve.
It would also allow the semi to take advantage of any Tesla DC charger it could find in a pinch.
Interesting that the V3 cable appears to be rubber, whereas the megacharger cable looks braided. I wonder if that is for greater safety/durability/toughness (e.g., kevlar threads), or enhanced flexibility or weight...or even just some air cooling on the side. Or maybe all of the above.
over-braid is generally just to add abrasion protection for more aggressive cable contact use. It has no electrical benefit but may allow the insulation below it to be a touch thinner as it does not need to tolerate as much abrasion. Thus could soften the overall cable feel. These over-braids are very soft to bend...
@@zilogfan Thanks. So, it sounds like some of my speculation might be correct (e.g., abrasion resistance and flexibility). I further wonder though if it might allow for snow or freezing rain in and if that could stiffen the cable, as the braiding seems somewhat open.
@@machoopichoo2 Hard to imagine they did not work on that factor but it is horribly boringly warm where they live so... ;)
@@zilogfan Ya, probably stating the obvious but maybe those bay area guys don't know cold weather. ;^) Although Elon is in TX right now and they don't seem to know cold weather either - shout out to ERCOT and the TX grid failing every six months.
Great work as usual. Looking forward to your content in 2023.
Thanks for the suport Kevin! Much appreciated.
I‘m listening with airpods…your voice is soothing😊 Makes listening to this nerdy stuff even more enjoyable💯😄
Thanks Melanie 😊
@@thelimitingfactor Melanie is looking for your ONLYFANS site possibly....
Thanks for the video! Supercharging is perhaps Teslas best feature but gets little love. In my 3 years of owning a 3 it’s been absolutely flawless, certainly not the experience of the CCS crowd (if RUclips videos are to be believed)
Who believes utube videos nowadays??? Ha
Solid video. I find myself nodding in agreement with your views.
what I want is at home dc charging so it can become bidirectional or the pathway for the future.
Water cooled leads have been in use for years in the welding technology field. A TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) welder lead uses a water cooled lead in order to reduce the size of wire and keep the lead size small and nimble. I have never been zapped and have been welding for years with a TIG lead.
amazing content, thanks!!! 👍🏻
Amazing video!!! Thank you!!
can not hardly wait for more tesla semi tech details to be released to public
Hi Jordan. I think one thing that people have neglected to consider with immersion cooling is the use of *Dielectric Coolant* as well as using non water based antifreeze solution additives like anhydrous alcohol based ones or ones like ethylene glycol (and other similar formulations). And at that, if a *Dielectric Coolant* is used, it will be (obviously) water free and thus may NOT even require an antifreeze additive.
I am certain they will go down this route with V4.
Hey Jordan, excellent breakdown of history and potential improvements of next gen charging. Super interesting! I didn't know exactly what changed from V1 to V3.
A few thoughts to share. I wonder if the direct water cooling on the V4/mega charger plugs could actually increase power transfer by acting as a conductor itself (if combined with antifreeze/ion solution). That would be a double benefit if true.
2nd on V4 plug CAD. My thought is that the strange non-flat shape could be in place to increase electrical clearance between active and ground connections, potentially for hi-potential reasons (arcing under super high voltage).
Hope you are well and happy holidays!
Oh heck! Good points! Happy holidays to you too buddy.
A liquid coolant *and* conductor is an intriguing thought, but does not seem practical:
•6 Metals. Best conductors + excellent coolants, but all seem expensive, some are toxic/radioactive, and even the best conductor is still ~6× less than copper.
•More metal alloys. Some are used as coolant, and gallium-based seems used as conductor at small scale.
•Some molten salts/Ionic liquids/RTIL. But they are often moderate to poor conductors.
•Acids, but they are agressive and way worse conductors.
Added phase change
I have known the cable in a cooling hose for a long time from welding technology. But there it is a cable with an reduced insulating jacket that lies in a tube.
To me, the Tesla schematic also shows that the conductor with conductor shield (just a thin layer of insulator) is in the cooling hose (dark gray area=shield, blue ring=liquid (the coolant is also drawn blue in the coolant tubes)). Depending on the liquid and voltage used, no direct insulation is needed, since the hose provides the insulation from the environment.
This has the advantage that the entire hose package becomes more flexible and lighter with improved cooling performance (contact surface over the entire circumference).
However, the existing (thin) conductor shield simplifies the entire construction, since no liquid can run between the strands and thus leak out at the cable ends. This would have to be done by e.g. seal continuous soldering. Also, an electro-chemical reaction between coolant and cable material (probably copper).
Also easier to handle from a safety point of view if both components remain "separate" and also for maintenance.
Without a conductor shield, there is also the problem that the individual strands are not always in contact with each other, which can lead to increased resistance and wear.
Great video as always Jordan. I'm hoping Tesla surprises us with the Cybertruck battery and can actually hit 1 MW peak, but I doubt it.
You mean "1MW" not "1MWh"
.
and no, it won't.
The charge rate will be limited by the size of the pack.
If you hit a 1MWh pack with 1MW of juice, it's like a 100kWh pack receiving 100kW from a charger.
Not a big deal for the pack, the limitation is the cable.
.
Now try 1MW into a 150kWh pack.
That's over 6 times the stress on the pack (cells)
.
The trick will be to *maintain* a higher rate for longer.
.
If the limitation of existing tech is the cables and connectors (?) and there's a 100kWh pack/ cell that could take say 345kW, from 10-70%... that's fast charging.
.
Then you up the size of the pack to 150kWh (CT?)
.
Could you increase the "flow rate" to 500+kW?
That's about 7 minutes from 10-70%
.
Then consider that vehicle with 500 miles nominal range, you're talking ±300 miles in 7 minutes?
.
Even at 50% range when towing, that's acceptable.
Great Video Jordan!
I think the Semi will have a complete flat charging curve to 70% at a charging rate of 1.4C or 1.25MW, which will be the max output.
This is my speculation because today a model 3 can handle 1.4C up to 70%, a heavy duty vehicle suits better with a flat curve than a 3C boost in the low end that makes no sense and requires so much more power. So my take is that V4 will be the one and only solution.
Good point, with scheduled driver breaks peak C / splash and dash type charging is far less relevant and makes site supply / battery buffering far less onerous
It’s still early in th transition th chargers will get bigger and bigger and better more problems more solutions
Nicely done! I suspect the Megacharger cable will be the diameter of the v2 SuperCharger cable (before cooling was introduced), since truckers are more capable of handling heavy cables versus consumers.
It’s still early
Interesting to note the cooled *vehicle-side* port/cables being mentioned ...
Yeeeeeees 😁 I thought so too.
A few issues come to mind. I can see a car with a V4 plug being designed for both V3 and V4 plugs. Presumably the low voltage plugs are movable / spring loaded to allow for different length plugs. However for a car with a V3 plug I don’t see this as likely to be compatible unless they planned it that far ahead or already have a moveable section, or perhaps this requires an adapter. With regards to the immersed wires, I can see a potential issue with this in that voltage drop across a single conductor means that there is a voltage potential between the plug end of the wire and the charger end of the wire. While the coolant running along the wire itself is probably not an issue, the loop that comes back on its own could be. I also would not be surprised if the semi is not capable of charging from a V3/V4 in a pinch.
I wonder if the waterbased coolant is some sort of graphene slurry and this graphene cooling jacket would simulate a beneficial conductive composite much like coating aluminum with a copper coating. It would enhance the amp capacity of the cable and would transfer heat extremely well.
Liquid cooling power cables is commonplace in the welding industry albeit weld voltage is low relative to automotive charging. For example a Weldcraft W-375 torch can operate at 375A @ 100% duty cycle with a 25 foot cord.
"Creepage and clearance" are considered in electrical isolation design. The1000V plug geometry change is likely driven by "creepage" requirements. The over molded thermoplastic's comparative tracking index likely dictated the design change to a labored path.
Excellent detective work . Very enlightening and more evidence of pioneering innovative genius : difficult to figure out why they are not more explicit and leave it to be figured out?
Because some of the tech isn't on the market yet and possibly helps protect IP.
My feedback is the cybertruck charger can be used to charge Semi-Truck as well. Tesla will only install V4 cybertruck chargers on their super - Charger network but companies buying semi-trucks will install much bigger Semi-Truck chargers at their locations.
Hopefully above a Serenity City terra tunnel power plant for charaties
Damn. Super well done 🤙
Thanks buddy 😀
For the Semi which is an industrial/business setting it seems to me that a two cable solution would make sense. As that would allow more flexible cables with very high ampacity.
It is clear to me that the coolant for the positive and the coolant for the negative must be kept isolated from ground and from each other. The up side is that the coolant can also act as a conductor, effectively increasing the amount of current each conductor can carry while providing liquid cooling. The downside is the added complexity of two separate, electrically isolated cooling loops. I'm sure the Tesla engineers are up to the task.
I agree that the Mega charger and the V4 charger are two different products. All the charging capacity required for the Semi would be wasted on smaller vehicles.
What about cracking and leaking causing an arc? What precautions are into the inlet plug of the vehicles? Would be an interesting topic for a video!
GFCI
@@zilogfan ?
@@AdlerMow you can send a high impedance high voltage test signal out the supercharger and look for conduction. You can do this line to line and from each line to ground. This would find a high conduction path which might be your crack with some debris or salt water as an example in it or just a ton of salt and a wet end on the connector. If they see this, they'll simply indicate a software fault and refuse to initiate the charge. This creates a safe test
@@zilogfan Thank you, very thought out.
It’s obvious that the dark blue represents coolant in that diagram, which means it doesn’t show two layers of sheathing outside the coolant. It’s also just a graphical representation of the cable, not a detailed, extremely accurate drawing, so the fact that the coolant doesn’t appear to be in direct contact with the metal conductors might not mean that it actually won’t be in the real cable.
Another great video.
. Question. It must be noted - What is the safe working distance for a given Voltage?
and working with high current - What is the working life span of the cables?
Very Interesting Jordan. The summary is perfect. I am wondering if the 4680 tabless design might impact the plateau of the Ion of lithium diffusion to the anode. The current path, being better organized on the anode inside the jelly roll with tabless could modify the diffusion of Ion? if the diffusion is seen as not only Z axis thru the dept of anode but also on the X and Y axis? This could lead to a larger plateau covering more than 10 to 30% SOC at high C-rate. Just an idea..
A minor correction, but DC fast charging does still go through an vehicle's on-board charger. DC charging skips over the rectifier circuit in the on-board charger because that's done in the charging station itself, but there are other components in the on-board charger that DC charging still uses. Both the charging station and the on-board charger have contactors and fuses to cut power if either one sees something going wrong with charging. Connections between these components as well as the connection with the charging plug itself will have higher resistance and heat generation than the cable, so these are more likely to be the technological bottlenecks of DC fast charging. I would not be surprised to see cooling in the connector head since that will be much closer to where a lot of that heat is being generated.
Thanks for the excellent insights!!! 🤜🤛🔥
I have seen transformers made out of square copper tube, with the coolant directly running through the bare inside of the tube, so having the conductor directly in contact with the coolant is not that unusual.
i think it will just be two coolant loops one for the positive terminal and one for the negative terminal this is why you have four channels for coolant, this way you can keep electrical isolation, you just have to do a u turn at the connector no need to pass the coolant inside of the car.
I think if the car side would be cooled by liquid it would use the internal cooling system of the car to prevent coolant sharing as it would be bad for reliability if the coolant could be exposed to dust or leaks
A adaptor to use a V4 charger to charge a semi would be good to slow charge it over night while parked while also being able to be used on cybertruck and hopefully van down the road. . Would be good for private installations at company depots.
So regarding power capacity of the cable itself... if it's providing double the voltage that means it only needs to supply half the current for the same power delivered. At half the current and with better cooling the cable resistance is likely the same or even lower then v3 meaning the power dissipation within the cable is less then half that of v3 for the same power delivery, thus it would be able to essentially deliver twice the power to the vehicle battery while dissipating the same amount of power as the charger with half the voltage. The higher voltage essentially directly reduces the power dissipation required by the cable and all the internal wiring of the charger likewise itself. Ultimately this provides twice the efficiency of charge.
When you have a really big battery pack -- like for the Semi -- I wonder if it makes sense to divide it into several smaller sub-packs, at least during charging. The reason is the mega charger could deliver peak power for longer if the sub-packs were charged sequentially. For example, put all the charging amps into the first sub-pack until it reaches the end of the plateau and start ramping down, then do the same for the next sub-pack, and so on. The result is the charger is putting out max power all the way until the final sub-pack starts to ramp down.
Hmmmmm, interesting point!
Do you think the Semi will use one big custom battery pack, or several smaller packs they already make for other cars? If the latter, then each pack would probably already have it's own BMS, so staggering the charge curves might be mostly just a software issue.
This would be the lease effective for prevention of lithiation. They are charged in series to make the most of the current. The current is the hardest thing to provide. The voltage is easier to provide. The more cells in series the easier to charge. The only problem is then balancing them but this can be done periodically with special hardware...
Th different packs charge in series
Great Work, thank you. The most striking item that few talk (lack of manufacturers information?) about is the operating voltage and charging voltage the vehicle is designed to handle. Tesla seem to use a 3OOV system until the Plaid arrived which must be running 800V to achieve the motor output. As confidence and field experience grows the Semi (and Sybertruck?) are running 1000V. Increasing operating voltage is a good measure of EV technology advancing. Anyone for 1200V like Remac?
Thank you!
With V3, an operator may approach plugging in blindly with the plug at any orientation & stupidly rotate until it goes in. That rotation gives the big electrodes an opportunity to get close to the wrong connection.
With V4, an operator approaching blindly cannot get the big electrodes near a wrong connection since the protrusion prevents it. The big electrodes are only ever allowed to get close the the correct connection.
Don't forget the separate coolant tubes in V4. Most probably for two separate circuits of coolant, each with their own upstream by tube and downstream throug the conductor. Each loop is just facing just only one of these voltages of a conductor, preventing electrolysing of the coolant itselves. For electrolysing you alwais need two separate voltages on the same liquid. With only one electrode per cirquit, no electrolysis hapens.
Hey Jordan!
We reviewed the NACS published details and CAD ourselves a few weeks back, the 1000V (V4) plug didn't seem to be mechanically compatible with the 500V charge port... Will investigate further (spec sheet says they are fully interoperable)
Thanks for the heads up! Is this published somewhere that I can have a look?
@@thelimitingfactor having said this and looking into it again, in the spec document under "5. General Construction" it's claimed they're two-way compatible, which didn't seem to be the case in the CAD models... I'm going to have another look at this tomorrow to determine if we missed something last time around (it was a rather informal look at the models last time).
Going to edit my comment in the meantime, let's continue to assume they are fully interoperable.
Trying to help but I’m far from being qualified. I suggest two things that might help. I live close to the 43 stall v3 superchargers in quartzite Az. A massive V4 or Mega Charger
station is being constructed near the current V3 location. By the size and location 1/2 way between Phoenix and LA I’m guessing its for Simi’s and possibly cyber trucks. Inspection of this sight my give some resolution to the Mega/V4 question. Also in early photos of the Simi it appeared to have duel charging ports is it possible the new plug will support split charging for faster charging for both the Simi and Cyber truck. Again
thanks for your fantastic videos.
Thank you. Do you have any thoughts about CCS 2 in Europe?
Thanks!
Immersion cooling usually uses dielectric coolants, so they are not conductive. There are many videos here on TY that show entire servers being submersed in dielectric coolant. It’s very weird to see computer running under liquid.
I think they have moved to R1234YF Freon cooling, not ethylene glycol cooling circuits. Another alternative is to use Yttrium barium copper oxide superconductor beads loaded into a rubber casing with a liquid nitrogen cooling loop cable!
That’s logical too
@@michaelstarkey9745 the Freon is non conductive. So would Liquid nitrogen as well. Both would be non corrosive as well.
Thanks for the vid! And wouldn't charge rates go up with the 4680?
I wonder if its reasonable for Tesla to assume commercial drivers would be capable of plugging in 2+ cables at 1MW ? Simple solution, same charger, multicable for semi. Just a thought.
Great info, great presentation. Thanks.
Great video, as always!
How will this impact Europe, where we use CCS-plugs? 🤔
Not sure! I think CCS is already designed for 1000 volts, I'm just not sure about the amps.
@@thelimitingfactor thank you 🙏🏻
Do you mind concidering adding that info in future videos? There’s a lot of us outside the US driving Teslas 😁
I'm betting that the reason for the v4 super charger power specs has more to do with leveraging the prevalence of the existing super charger network for emergency purposes for the Simi when it becomes widely available. It won't just be company end points on their routes that have access to the megachargers or at truck stops equipped with these megachargers , but may require some stalls at normal super charger locations to be upgraded with a v4 stalls to accommodate the cybertruck and semi-truck.
Yeah makes sense.
500kw is needed soon with Cybertruck and maybe other vehicles like vans.
But with potential ultrafastcharging in the future this would require 1000kw. So designing the charger to that spec is a good idea.
Since Tesla is switching to LiFePO4 batteries, it's possible the Megacharger can be used to charge normal cars much faster. The theoretical limit could be closer to 12-20 minute charging for that chemistry.
All good for the charge side but what about the vehicle side? As with all connections it is the slide together connections that fail first. And then what about the vehicle? The wires that go to the inverter that feed the battery pack, will they be cooled in the car to take advantage of the higher capacity?
@13:50 it could also be possible Tesla switches from water-glycol to a coolant with dielectric properties like mineral oil. What do you think?
Thanks for your video.
What about, if the benefit of the v4 ist for upcoming 800V systems at MS, M3, ...?
Hasn't Tesla to follow this more or less new standard to be competitiv in charging speed?
The company that made the swapable axled powerpack for semis has a great concept too. New full batteries in the time it takes to unhitch one, pull away and back into the replacement attach and go. I do not recall the companies names but the concept seems valuable. Charge many battery setups maximizimg charging during best times or whatever turna out to be most economical solution during lowest price charge time, using renewables it has potential. I am sure someone has done the math on how effective adding solar panels to semi's are too which may or may not be viable for much. Wind on vehicles is another concept that can be additive to charging ... not from wind while driving but more a deployable unit for stationary added charge, it may be effective when driving on extremely wind days to a smaller degree. Inductive route charging has potential. There is always the sero point field, quantum fluctuation field to tap into someday... that tech hasn't been established as far as I know of in anything more than statistically relevant events.... sort of where fusion is at in a sense. Anyhow there are many new technologies on the rise that are or will become viable now that the shift to renewables has finally turned on.... evolution can be a slow back n forth process but a lot is always being looked into and imho we are in the singularity part of what is most likely a future s-curve now... so that means fast change in negatively deccelerating/ less and less delta t (time). Exponential curves are big change events.
Is it possible that the semi includes two charging receptacles so it can charge quickly if a semi charger is available or less quickly at an NACS charger? That would extend the reachable territory for semi.
Putting aside electrical considerations, it makes sense that semi mega chargers and V4 Superchargers would be separate for parking space and availability reasons. Consider: most super chargers are back in and often in tight parking lots. Semis won’t physically fit. And for mega chargers semi operators won’t want to open up these chargers to the whole Tesla consumer vehicle fleet. They could quickly get backed up with consumer charging. Businesses will want dedicated chargers. Note: this doesn’t preclude hypothetically offer a NACS adapter for semi but it doesn’t seem very useful. So I don’t see much benefit of cross compatibility.
Thanks Jordan, pretty much spot on to what I was thinking, just didn’t think about the lithiation element. Do you know what the changes to C rate are likely to be by adding Silicon and any potential changes to chemistry, do we have any info on C rate for Qilin?
Managed to answer my own question, found a video on CATL website that shows the CTP3 platform as having C rate of 4 so looking at the CTP3 space advantage which will be coupled to M3P chemistry so they could do an 80kWh M3P Qilin that would charge at 320kW peak which coincides nicely with rumoured Supercharger updates