Something I should have mentioned in the video, is that this applies to community events and such. If you have a local gaming community, people are test playing armies, you’re playing with a mate down the street, do whatever you like! But when you rock up to a paid for event, that’s when these standards all come into play. Otherwise, have at it!
This would have changed my original comment, this makes a huge difference, as there is a huge difference from recreating the battle of London for fun and bring F-18s because "Imagine the look on the German's faces," and recreating it for the most accurate planes down to most of the metal not being radioactive because no atomic bombs had gone off yet.
Similar situations happen in historical wargaming. Not that much as far as paintjob quality goes, but perhaps even more furious when it comes to effort towards period and regional authenticity, due to the factual basis as opposed to fictional canon. And there are people who enjoy sharing advice and tolerate honest mistakes, while others insist you should read a dozen scholarly books to be worthy of playing with. I'd personally call the former standards and the latter elitism.
agreed, you can't play a game of chess with dam pieces for instance, as they can't represent their roles and function well within the rules of the game, so the only help necessary from your opponent and fellow players is that you get the appropriate pieces to play, if someone still refuses to play you because they deem you're not learned enough on *how* to play, then move on and try someone else.
Like registering on a sports team but only showing up for one practice a month and not even bothering to be able to finish a fitness test then turning and saying "you all are just elitist". Its the curse of 'some' wanting lower expectations because they want don't want to put in the effort like everyone else.
Hi Macca, very interesting vid. I didn’t mention that I had a GW guy comment RE: this on fb. He said “cos it was nice painted army that’s why they featured it”. I left the convo after that as it kinda affirmed what I had thought. On this though; for me it’s the immersion and trying to create that 30k feel. Not necessarily markings and stuff like that but the aesthetics, the dark, the grim. And for me sticking a. Primaris in doesn’t convey that unless it has been modified. Take care and stay safe.
I had wanted to get into 30k over a year ago, and the local community told me while they wouldn’t not play my primaris army, especially just to teach me the rules, it’s just not how they want to enjoy that part of the hobby. I never ended up going to go play with them. However, I have spent the last year making a legit 13th legion army. Now that I have put all this effort in, I feel the same way they did. It’s not a big deal to introduce someone to the rules, and see if they actually want to invest in it. If you want to actually be a 30k player, getting models that look right is such a low standard that that the gate doesn’t exist, it’s a small hurdle. Two boxes of infantry, a character and you can play small point games. I budgeted $60 a month to build my force. I got a pretty decent sized army in a year. If you can only afford $30, then just accept you will need to wait a few months before starting, then you will be at small point levels until your second year of playing. Is that a big deal? You will know exactly what models you need and won’t waste your money. Every adult hobby has this aspect. Try 3 gun competition shooting. First, you gotta buy a pistol, shotgun, and semi auto rifle. Can’t afford that? Buy one, and focus on getting good with that until you can afford the second gun. If you can only afford $30 a month then that hobby would take an easy decade to compete. If you actually shoot the guns you have regularly. There are a lot of ways to lower the barrier to entry to 30k. Because it’s not as cheap as tabletop simulator, or just using an existing 40K army isn’t something to be bothered about.
Yeah, I think they should have at least offered you a brief demo even if they had to split their one of their own armies in half. Just so you knew what you were getting into before you put money down.
I got into 30k as I thought the Mk III looked cool then I decided I needed a lore-friendly colour scheme. Eventually found Iron Warriors haven't looked back since though I sadly still have not many models. Mainly because I am an Aussie teen who refuses to pay $70 for ten men (Recently found recasts so maybe my IV legion will get built).
Angus Wilson Spillane Come come come, we should be mortal enemies as I collect Dorns lads. Get the recast if that’s your only option, just be selective on where you buy!
Only Death Iron on the outside, banana on the inside.. He’ll collect the imperial fists as a display counter eventually! My partner is already telling me how poor I will become when she collects Space Wolves to counter her Thousand Sons.. wallet/warm bed.. hardest choice of my life o_O
Easy 30k primaris marine...are you ready? #1 Grab some green stuff flatten it into a square- cut strips off, layer it on the legs and arms- (thus making it look like knight armor)#2 sand the chest insignia until its smoothed out #3 head swap #4 paint model in 30k colors. Would you like too go the extra mile? Buy some bits (for whatever factions you like) add 1 or 2 bits per marine. I would recommend 3rd party bits like shoulder pads and accessories just don't go crazy as 30k Marines weren't as decorated as 40K.
Standards, not every one can afford to play it, I haven't spent £2000 on a army to spend 4 hours being reminded what proxy I'm shooting at, same goes with painting, if there has been no attempt at all to paint your models or they are only primed I don't want to play against you, I don't want you out of the community I just don't want to play with you.
Agreed, there seems to be little to no middle ground though, small growth & massive erosion of player base, my finished army that cost $$$ & time painting & research sits idle on a shelf unused without an enemy to fight against, without have a days driving or more effort. If ya think it frustrating to play against a representative army think about how it is when an immaculate armies player struggles with the rules for it, How about helping them paint it if that's a concern, they would help you more likely than not, anything to have more players, less armies collecting dust, a new challenge to your superior skills, or just a threat to your advantage, try turning an opportunity to disappoint or judge into a friendship & contributor to the hobby
Great video. Question, if you don't mind. I am just getting into HH - Death Guard. They like Dreads. I like Dreads. I have two Leviathans and five Contemptors. I am also planning on adding three castraferrum Dreadnoughts (Dreadnought talon). Given they are 40k models, what would you do to make them look and feel more 30k? Is there a model that is better suited ("regular", venerable, ironclad)?
As per usual, the only people complaining about elitism or gatekeeping are people who aren't willing to make the effort to be part of a group, and want to change the group to exclude anyone they personally deem morally unrighteous.
James - "that's where it gets tricky though I think because who's to say what enough effort is? I rarely share pics of this project cause they get ripped into, but I'm happy that I've created a Blackshields force wearing archaic suits of power armour, led by Endryd Haar with the effort I've put in, but it's totally subjective. The more coherent and polite criticism has suggested I should change the poleyns or greenstuff the armour but if I'm happy then isn't that enough? I'm aware that I'm using a personal example and this isn't just about me, but I guess I'm trying to show that everyone hobby's differently and that we should bear in mind whether us not liking something is grounds for"
Yo Macca, can you do a rundown of the Mournival events books, its taken over completely here and replaced official rules and seems to be spreading across the country.
What are peoples thoughts on Sternguard legs on Mk IV marines? I can't work out which armour mark the legs are but I don't think it is visually jarring. This is for an ultramarines army. Would value some advice.
I assume it's for a veteran tactical squad or something like that? Tabards are kind of out of place imo, unless you're playing Dark Angels I guess. To me the legs look like two mk 7/8, one mk 6, one mk 5 and one mk 4. I'd suggest If you use the mk 7/8 legs modify the knee pads to look more like mk 4
Just my 2 cents and It may have been stated already. I started 40k in 4th ed. as a young kid not knowing what the hell I was doing. I got out of the hobby until I started again at the end of 6th, started recollecting models in 7th, and finally playing at the end of 7th up until now. Many SM players I think received a big scare with Primaris, including myself. As though our models that we put time and effort into are being thrown down the tube. I am not an excellent painter but I like the way my Guardians of the Covenant (Dark Angels Successor) have turned out over the years. I think we are just looking for a universe our Marines can be used in, if and when they do get the big boot in 40k. I would never use primaris but would it be frowned upon using the improper color scheme and certain armor/vehicle patterns of the same models?
The IW warsmith is my base for not-Kyr Vhalen, the Night Lords Hero is my NL Siege Breaker with no conversion done (or necessary IMO - the helmet clearly isn't standard issue and sort of looks like MK V, the legs are either MK VI or V but could count as artificer armour, combi-flamer is trash but kind of charming, the fist torso and backpack are phenomenal).
I think your comment on how being lazy with reusing an army in spite of a killer paintjob is sorta against the elitism that a lot of people expect. Lots of people I've talked to have been scared off of the heresy because of thinking they need a perfectly painted army, when the real thing is the sign of effort. My squats are, IMO, rather poorly painted, but it was the best I could do at the time, and I have had plenty of people comment that it's well done army for the heresy, in spite of technical errors and lack of skills. It's not elitism as you said, it's holding to a standard, and it's so odd that people just don't see that. The army could be shoddily painted, to a degree, but you put effort into all the little details of the armour or the iconography, and it would still be a good heresy army because of that. Also it's kinda fun to have the historical guide lines for painting stuff, in HH as well as historical war games. Some people may see it as stifling to their creativity, but there really is a depth of creativity in historical settings.
Good vid. Mac, i have a few later amour mark miniatures that i have painted for Hersey Dark Angels thankfully its mostly the veterans squad which gives me robes that cover what could be detail problems and some of the heads have mark 4 helmets or just faces. I do have 2 guys that have a later post heresy helmet mark would they be ok on tabletop? To add i recently picked up a box of Mark 3's, a Command squad(which i will convert if the armor is too modern as my first real attempt to do conversions) and some Mark IV's. Would this be good for the start of a 30k army? I am relatively new to building an army and recently switched to wanting to do 30k when i got into the lore
Makes me think of when a group of soldiers played with sticks and stone a 40k' game, elitismen is basicly just about to secure certain standards, doesnt matter about what, sport, tabletop, cars, music fans etc etc
You missed something with the title; standards are a form of exclusion but that doesnt mean it's bad. A restaurant wouldnt seat you at a table if you're buck naked just like how I wont play a game with you if your entire army is grey plastic or two flat colors. Having a standard involves excluding those people who dont fit sed set standard, which everyone in society is totally okay with except when it comes to tabletop games for some reason.
I think standards are fair. People don’t owe you a game. If someone pays for an event, which in some cases involves a lot of travel, have a great painted thematic army, it’s quite immersion breaking to fight against grey mk VIIs. There will always be some people who use any standards to push people around unfairly, but by and large if they are enforced in an even handed and understanding way, that’s great. You can have rules and standards and inclusivity aims but they all boil down to don’t be a dick. Don’t fuck with your opponent’s immersion, don’t be a dick because someone isn’t a top painter if they’ve tried.
@Only Death i'm not sure what your basing that one, unless you lack the proper context? It's a 30k model thats been sale for 40k because there was no 30k when it was released. It's been on sale from FW as part of the Horus Heresy range since day 1. It was originally released with the MK pattern armours when FW backdoor piloted Horus Heresy through the babad wars books because they weren't sure it would be safe to launch on its own. The kits sold and FW committed.
Only Death those’ll be those crayola standards that don’t actually affect the gameplay or quality of an army, just personal preferences on the detailing of mini’s? “Ticking certain boxes” is essentially “your enjoying your hobby wrong” once you get past the basic criteria you’d expect at say the event level. The basics such as painted, based and not a completely random mini that’s throw in as a proxy all should be good. Your bringing something clearly a space marine with a plasmagun to use as a marine with a plasmagun? Sweet. You want your ork dread to proxy a contemptor? Gtfo. The discussion of detailing at the individual model level’s fine if you want to invest to that extent, but once your into the realms of excluding people over types of marines being used then your no longer enjoying a hobby, your gatekeeping.
Its between the the parties playing. Its a social contract. Its up to them and no one else. Either way be decent and accept that. No matter how elite you are someone will think its not good enough even tho you think your one of the elitist. Which is humorous.
True. For me lore and expansive background is what differentiates warhammer in general from other tabletops. It adds depth, context and intensifies immersion. And that lore is evoked through minis (and terrain). However, I wouldn't necessarily call the people from 40k "proxying" their way into 30k lazy. I'm thinking of them as financially shrewd. Cant blame them for trying - hh is even more punishing for the wallet than regular 40k. I mean, you get the most bang for your buck if you can get your ultramarines both in 40k and 30k and - maybe - even in AoS, you know, superhuman, boys in blue, swords, fighting bad guys - same sort of stuff. Worth a shot, right?
30k standards seems simillar to narrative 40k. I don't enjoy playing against armies with no story or concept. I'm not gonna refuse to play against somebody because of it but I'm still going to be dissapointed and their lack of effort will probably result in me not arranging future games with them.
Perhaps that is how the standards should be set to an extent, if people want to play narratives and campaigns they must know how to represent their chosen force and treat it with the respect it deserves, (with abit more freedom for say custom chapters in 40k or a force like blackshields in 30k having abit more leeway?) whilst in matched one might need to make sure that their army is clearly defined and recognizeable as it is the most serious taken format. Open play is where people can chuck almost anything they have on the field be it a very complex conversion or simple one-coat duders. yea or nay?
@@Noxims47314 For me standards are very clearly about the effort and imagination of the player. I'd be perfectly happy to play against "cinematic marines" which are space marines using Custodes tabletop rules to better represent how they feel in the novels. If the conversions and paintjobs done by the player made it feel like my army of flesh tearers, was fighting against an army of grizzled veterens. At the end of the day, the goal of playing a game of 40k or 30k isn't just to have fun on the tabletop, it's to have a fun story to tell friends and other hobbiests. Whether that's because the game was really tactically close and challenged both players, or because there was a fun story created.
I think many people don't understand that the 30k community has more in common with historical war games than with 40k. The adherence to the time period is part of the point. If I show up to Black Powder event with my Union Infantry painted in hot pink, I wont be welcome there. If you show up to a 30k event with hell blasters, you're going to have a bad time.
I did, and i loved it. I've got no issue with primaris in 30k so long as they're modelled to represent the units. In casual games painting job's aren't a big concern because 90% of normal people would like to enjoy their armies whilst the painting process is happening
75% of 40k (real life table top gamers) I've ever known don't play, collect or spend due to exclusion & elitist outlook of some companies & players. They play online or find inclusive groups where they can be themselves
I can say that I feel excluded, but not because of painting. It's the edgybois that make tournament netlists that win in 2 turns that make me uninterested in the game, so I just do hobby work instead
Here are the standards everyone should follow. If you cannot follow them you should be gatekept out of the hobby Basic understanding of the rules, or at least the ability to learn them Respect your fellow players, whether that be politically or not. Lose gracefully, no tantrums, obfuscation or gaslighting. If you lose at the end you accept it and move on No cheap min maxing or tactics that can ruin the fun of the game Wash yourself ffs Paint your minis at least to the point it is easily understood visually what they are. What you see is what you get. No proxies. That's it. If you've been in the hobby for an extended period of time then you probably do all of this already and there's no issue. If not, then ask someone to teach you. It's all basic hobby etiquette.
In my opinion wysiwyg is beneath rule of cool within certain parameters. For instance im working on a 1k sons assault squad using the blade occult torsos because they look so amazing
My main problem with WYSIWYG is that I have probably 25 Mk. III and IV Marines kitted out as so-called "glory squads" with nothing but swords, axes, hammers, and pistols. And they aren't Assault Marines. And they don't fit as Tacticals either. Meaning I have a bunch of models that cannot, according to the rules, be legally played. I have to ask every single time a play a friendly game just to get them on the table. I don't go to tournaments because I am fine with friendly competition, not sweaty neck beards who brought a Knight list or Custodian blob. Basically, WYSIWYG works well when you follow the directions of the kit. In my case, I like sticking on lots of bits from other kits to abide by the rule of cool. So, maybe that is one standard that can be overlooked occasionally for idiots like me who want a thematic bunch of plastic dude men rather than an entirely "legal" army list.
I have a simple rule for 30k: what you see is what you get, if you see in a tournament a primaris squad or any model and it DOES NOT lookk like the squad that you want it to represent then you have done something wrong. BTW there should be standards because Golden Demon and other tournaments have standards and my best advise is to follow their them. Golden demon wont accept a 40k primaris in any 30k category only if the conversion fits their rules. Not everyone can follow those standards but it serves well as a guidence on how to convert. As Mecca said the colourscheme should not matter because if you imagine Simons primaris sons of horus with no paint on them they will look like standard primaris. That is another way on how i would use converting models into something diffirent.
Without set standards where would you be? A third world country? Look at it as a house or building with a leaky roof. you dont have the correct or matching parts to fix the tiles or leadwork so you plug the gaps with sub standard or mismatching or incorrect parts and you get water seeping in. The water gradually rots the wooden beams and supports, the plaster blows off the walls from the damp. water pipes and electrics fail adding to the downward spiral. You keep trying to fix the thing using quick bodges or cheap foreign labour, that again doesnt follow set standards and before long all you need to do is give the front door a stern kick and the whole rotten edifice collapses in on its self.
The false comparison here is amazing. Your comparing building codes designed for safety to a tabletop game with LITERALLY no real life consiquences if someone brings a box of mk7 marines to represent mk3 marines, or uses a primaris plasma squad to represent a marine plasma squad. I think you should re-asses the point you were trying to make.
@@kasperhawser6431 The comparison is fair from a subjective standpoint. You perhaps might be missing the bigger picture. There's literally nothing stopping someone playing with there mates and using half a toilet roll as a landraider and a couple of biscuits as plasma squad. Personally i have some 250+ 40k midget marines. with my various veteran squads and characters i have strived to make them all as close to mk6 armour as possible through kitbashing and forward planning. But not for one instant would i consider using them in a game of 30k. personal choice, personal standards. cheers
yeahokno then perhaps you could assist me, why did you reference professional standards at the start then move to personal standards? What you do in your hobby is your choice, but if your choice is to subject other people to your personal standards then they’ve stopped being personal standards.
@@kasperhawser6431 Id be happy to try to assist you. I reference professional standards because i work in the building trade. I run my own plastering company where my high standards of quality and work ethics allow me to be in constant demand. mainly working in very old houses that sometimes have been badly repaired/ maintained, i know what happens if standards are not followed, gradual decline. As stated there is nothing stopping whomever from playing a bowl of potatoes as a squad expensive legion specific terminators, just dont expect people who have tried to put time and money in resenting you for doing so. you would be laughed out of a tournament for trying something like that but between friends where it doesnt matter then who cares? i personally wouldnt subject others to my demands on the tabletop but would be hesitant to give them the time of day. primaris marines in 30k is immersion breaking. unrealistic. lazy. so on. As previously stated i woulnt dream of trying to use my painstakingly kitbashed mk6 armoured vets in a propper game of 30k as its not fair for the others who made the effort and financial cost. again, personal choice and standards and without standards where would you be? Cheers!
Again, i cant convey how much time and effort i have taken to make my vets as close to heresy era mk6 armour, i just wouldnt force them apon someone with a genuine 30k army.
I agree with most of the points but it does show the rhetoric of GW/FW when they push the primaris so excessively it slips into 30k, which I definitely agree allows for a lower standard.. My store wouldn't let you play upstairs without painting the models and I'm not gonna lie I never heard any outrage but then again it was almost 10 years ago now so the chances are people just didn't care by default. I don't think it's gate keeping as such however I don't think GW will wanna create more walls that exist in their franchise so it leads me to believe that they go with the inclusive route as it adds perceived value like the Drones they've just released that can be listed in any army even though theme/character is HUGELY important in this franchise and these guys are devoid of any of that however do have a reasonable statline...... The standards have been set for years and years! :/
It's vital to have standards. You can't just be included as a "fan" or "hobbyist" if you don't put in the effort. If you call yourself a Gamer because you play mobile games, you're not a Gamer.
Just like how a 40k 'RUclipsr' who doesnt part take in the miniatures aspect of the hobby, aka 'The actually hobby of Wargammer', diminishes the community. Never mind toxic chad-wannabe bravado that is hiding social inadequacy. *ahem* This video touches on important points what attracts new players, we gotta keep the standard up because, well that price bar is so high lol
@@fabianvallejo4414 don't get me wrong I play 40k and have over 12000 points Nurgle everything build and around 7000 Painted. But if this Video represents the 30k community I'm out and will never be a part of it.
@@meisterhyperion207 While it doesn't represent the 30K community, I don't personally see what he's saying that's controversial. Could you clarify your POV?
@@eddymercan7487 elitist thinking and gate keeping is bad. These people always claim that it is good, but in fact no. Just imagine you have a new player who wants to start the hobby and you tell him to go fuck himself because he didn't reach you standard and hasn't paintet his full army. Are you sure you want to be that guy?
@@meisterhyperion207 who is doing that? It's one thing to teach someone a game, or to play at home, it's another to rock up to a paid event with some junk you threw together because you don't care, it's just toy soldiers.
Is paying full price for Forgeworld models part of that social contract of the community or would it perhaps be rank hypocrisy to judge others when advocating for recast models? Asking for a community who supports the game rather than Chinese recasters.
Im sorry i think your wrong on almost all your points. If someone wants to play 30k and they only have a 40k chapter then i say let em. My only real point is models must represent their intended unit eg you need a rino so you use a razorback with no gun. Not everyone has a huge amount of disposable income to throw £60 plus weapons on a 10 man tactical squad. I personally use 40k vehicles in my armies, i do however remove all Aquilas from them and use legion transfers. This is because i have bills and other expenses in my day to day life. I have ran demo games of 30k for a guy who only had a 40k army and he used regular marines in 30k formations, yes it was a little odd for iron hands to fight death guard painted as howling griffins but so what?! If you want to turn round and say to people "your not welcome to play this games because you haven't put enough "effort" (money) into it." Then all you are doing is harming this comunity. This game. You are doing damage to the SOCIAL nature of table top war gaming and i hope you have enough plays in you area to do that because your player group will stagnate and never have any new blood.
@Only Death please dont get me wrong i know people who take a 40k model and put it into 30k with massive conversion and they look awesome but if some kid wants to play 30k and they only have pocket money sort of income why shouldnt they
Agree to disagree... If you do not have money to buy golf clubs then nobody will let you play golf with a stick or umbrella. “Community” organised itself and set standards long before your arrival and if you prefer to play by “different rules” then do not expect acceptance. A player wants to be part of 30k community not the other way around (community doesn’t chase the player and begs him to play)
I'm sorry, but I think you're wrong. A 30k praetor model costs as much as a modern Primaris captain. A MK III or MK IV tactical squad is less expensive than a Primaris intercessor box. A Deimos rhino costs less than a Primaris Impulsor. A primaris upgrade kit for say, imperial fists, is over half the cost for a full legion transfer sheet, and the upgrade kit only equips one squad. Many 40k vehicles are fine with the proper loadout,. Mars pattern rhinos existed in 30k, and with a MK III kit or something, you can easily convert a twin linked bolter using the parts in the rhino kit and some extra phobos bolters. This is something like 10 minutes of modeling work to create, I don't think it's an unreasonable ask to have vs. a 40k storm bolter for instance.
Galen Helfter I feel a bit like that’s a little close to cherry picking because forge world have loads of models that cost a lot more then the 40k counters like the my blood angels are suddenly a lot more expensive if I replaced the terminator assault squad(blood angel exclusive) with the crimson paladins which is significantly more money or I could use a plastic cataphractii set but that’s still a massive time investment to get it looking close to those 2 sets in ornate design and I am not saying you should use the terminator assault squad but I do think it’s slightly bizarre to claim that 30k is not the obvious winner in being more expensive in comparison to 40k i can see how you could have a specific force that is as cheap as possible but that doesn’t mean that things like the legion falchion stop existing or for that matter almost all the vehicles for 30k being very expensive and this stuff on forge world will be someone’s first exposure to the setting more often then not so honestly if someone uses 40k stuff while they get their feet wet I don’t see the issue while they slowly add the more expensive 30k things later.
@Starseer How is that cherry picking? Those are all core units that are necessary to enter in and play the game, compared to their equivalents to start a 40k force. You shouldn't be using Crimson Paladins and tons of unique units when trying to learn the game or get your feet wet anyways, you should start smaller with simple units.
I want it to be more exclusive & have even higher standards. The same people complaining about this crap wanted an easy mode in dark souls/bloodborne. All average people do in niche hobbies is cause companies to lower the standard & appeal to the lowest common denominator. Then these people eventually abandon the hollowed, raped, husk once it's not in style anymore. If we want this not to happen, we basically have to be as unwelcoming as possible to people new to the hobby who show a subversive, lazy, &/or hostile attitude. We've seen this happen too many times before & we can all see the mainstream p.c. guns slowly turning towards GW
See, I disagree with everything in this video, but you have a point if you care about the lore more then the game. I play 40k and 30k, I grew into 40k, literally having to use paper cut outs on bases that is how little money I was able to spend in this game now I spend nothing because online is easier and cheaper. I say all this to say firmly I like the strategy of 40k and 30k while I am a lore nerd and can tell what marines fit where and what don't, I don't care in a game if it is supposed to be a narrative campaign, you have a point if you are playing a campaign there is a reasonable expectation, but if you are just throwing models on a board because like me you prefer strategy over looks, that is okay to. I do have to say, if you wont play someone because their army isn't painted, or isn't WUSIWUG, or isn't the right armor, you aren't someone I want to play with in the first place, this game is about a love for a common hobby, not about who has the most accurately scaled marines of the bunch. I play this game to kill little plastic men and watch my little plastic men fall over dead. If you play this game to have the most accurate army in the world and all the scaling and armor is accurate to the mm, more power to you. But realize that not everyone feels the same way and that even if they don't feel the same way it doesn't make them lesser in the hobby or better then you, it just means they care for other aspects more. I know a guy who plays Emperor's Children on Table Top Simulator he could play literally any other faction and win more but he loves Emperor's Children. I hate him for it he doesn't buy models, he just plays online, he just loves them so much he only ever wants to play them. And I respect that, do I have to tone down my (what ever legion I am playing at the time(LION FOR LIFE)), ya sure. But I have fun by playing the game and having fun with strategy's. Now if you are someone who puts 0 effort into making you models accurate expect this mentality from people the semi-elitist idea that F-18s can't be fighting in the battle of London. But show those people that you care more for the strategy and the game over the lore and the accuracy, show them that you have a passion for the same hobby and love the same things just at different levels. So can we all just get along and have fun without people needing to make 10 minute long videos about why they love the lore and accuracy? Can we all just get along, the world is tearing it's self to shreds around us and we still bicker about this? Is this really the best use of all our times? Maybe it doesn't matter as much as we think it does, maybe the world is a bit smaller then we thought it was, and maybe we can ll love the same hobby, the same game, the same lore, without holding all in at the same import.
You want us all to get along, but apparently that only works if we adhere to your "standards" and don't care about lore? I don't know why that should be acceptable, the lore and "hobby" part of warhammer is just as important as the actual gameplay.
@@lumberfoot2004 The lore and hobby part are EVEN MORE important than the gameplay. Without those aspects, there is no immersion and you might as well play with coins or whatever lying around.
@@terryr9052 The lore, the hobby and the game are, and can be all completely separate from each other. They can be all tied in together. That is the problem with gatekeeping. There are communities that don't care about fluff and only want the most optimized list to win in a competition. There are communities that only care about the fluff, and only buy the units to be placed within a campaign setting. There are communities that only care about the hobby and compete to be judged on how well they hobby.
@@EchoMirage72 I agree that there are seperate communities and each one should gatekeep according to their respective standards. The competitive communities should care and not accept if an individual keeps forgetting or being dishonest about rules. The painting communities should care about the standard to which the models are painted. The fluff communities should not accept individuals who are not faithful to the lore.
Terry R this is a very slippery slope though because this is the sort of thing that would fracture your community rather then bring us together and even then it’s an idea that fundamentally doesn’t work what happens when someone takes their newly painted army to show it to people and ask for ways to improve and they get a slap to the face because it isn’t good enough do you think that person is going to keep collecting or do you think you have just pushed someone away who will describe their experience as very toxic and unwelcome and before you say they could just play exclusively or delve into lore what if they just liked the interesting plastic people and didn’t care for a complicated game or an overwhelmingly large story. Gatekeeping isn’t the way forward for a growing player base you need to actually inform people of changes they could make in a manner that won’t piss people off or seem antagonistic.
@@TheOuterCircle lol I wasn’t bagging on you, more myself for not going to that level lol. I actually agree with most everything you said in this video, quality seriously matters, I face too many grey armies in my 40k games.. I’m glad to say I got decals on my bad boys in red now.👹👌
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Something I should have mentioned in the video, is that this applies to community events and such. If you have a local gaming community, people are test playing armies, you’re playing with a mate down the street, do whatever you like! But when you rock up to a paid for event, that’s when these standards all come into play. Otherwise, have at it!
SO you're talking for every paid events standards? Yeh, nah.
@@SirMeowingCatReturn of the "weekly" scrubdown WHEN?😺🔫
@@prdalien0 "Something I should have mentioned in the video, is that this applies to community events and such. "
Agreed. This is better. Carefully and clearly explained.
This would have changed my original comment, this makes a huge difference, as there is a huge difference from recreating the battle of London for fun and bring F-18s because "Imagine the look on the German's faces," and recreating it for the most accurate planes down to most of the metal not being radioactive because no atomic bombs had gone off yet.
Having standards is to exclude sub-standard things. Standards and exclusion are the same thing. No exclusion, no standards.
Similar situations happen in historical wargaming. Not that much as far as paintjob quality goes, but perhaps even more furious when it comes to effort towards period and regional authenticity, due to the factual basis as opposed to fictional canon.
And there are people who enjoy sharing advice and tolerate honest mistakes, while others insist you should read a dozen scholarly books to be worthy of playing with. I'd personally call the former standards and the latter elitism.
agreed, you can't play a game of chess with dam pieces for instance, as they can't represent their roles and function well within the rules of the game, so the only help necessary from your opponent and fellow players is that you get the appropriate pieces to play, if someone still refuses to play you because they deem you're not learned enough on *how* to play, then move on and try someone else.
Like registering on a sports team but only showing up for one practice a month and not even bothering to be able to finish a fitness test then turning and saying "you all are just elitist". Its the curse of 'some' wanting lower expectations because they want don't want to put in the effort like everyone else.
Elites? I prefer to fill up my heavy support personally 😜
Fast attack all the way
good one
I'm still waiting for that part 2 of that 40k models to use in 30k video.
BIG TRU!
Hi Macca, very interesting vid. I didn’t mention that I had a GW guy comment RE: this on fb. He said “cos it was nice painted army that’s why they featured it”. I left the convo after that as it kinda affirmed what I had thought.
On this though; for me it’s the immersion and trying to create that 30k feel. Not necessarily markings and stuff like that but the aesthetics, the dark, the grim. And for me sticking a. Primaris in doesn’t convey that unless it has been modified. Take care and stay safe.
Gate keeping is based so long as you are open to teaching newbies the right way. People that try and change the hobby can piss off.
Exclusion is fine, so long as the opportunity to be included is always available.
Standards by necessity require exclusion. You have a solid perspective macca I always appreciate your point of view.
I had wanted to get into 30k over a year ago, and the local community told me while they wouldn’t not play my primaris army, especially just to teach me the rules, it’s just not how they want to enjoy that part of the hobby. I never ended up going to go play with them. However, I have spent the last year making a legit 13th legion army. Now that I have put all this effort in, I feel the same way they did. It’s not a big deal to introduce someone to the rules, and see if they actually want to invest in it. If you want to actually be a 30k player, getting models that look right is such a low standard that that the gate doesn’t exist, it’s a small hurdle. Two boxes of infantry, a character and you can play small point games. I budgeted $60 a month to build my force. I got a pretty decent sized army in a year. If you can only afford $30, then just accept you will need to wait a few months before starting, then you will be at small point levels until your second year of playing. Is that a big deal? You will know exactly what models you need and won’t waste your money. Every adult hobby has this aspect. Try 3 gun competition shooting. First, you gotta buy a pistol, shotgun, and semi auto rifle. Can’t afford that? Buy one, and focus on getting good with that until you can afford the second gun. If you can only afford $30 a month then that hobby would take an easy decade to compete. If you actually shoot the guns you have regularly. There are a lot of ways to lower the barrier to entry to 30k. Because it’s not as cheap as tabletop simulator, or just using an existing 40K army isn’t something to be bothered about.
Recasting makes it easy.
Yeah, I think they should have at least offered you a brief demo even if they had to split their one of their own armies in half. Just so you knew what you were getting into before you put money down.
I got into 30k as I thought the Mk III looked cool then I decided I needed a lore-friendly colour scheme. Eventually found Iron Warriors haven't looked back since though I sadly still have not many models. Mainly because I am an Aussie teen who refuses to pay $70 for ten men (Recently found recasts so maybe my IV legion will get built).
Also yeah the only real conversions I am doing is head swaps and some shoulder pads. and I am trying to convert characters like Forrix and Dantioch.
Angus Wilson Spillane Come come come, we should be mortal enemies as I collect Dorns lads.
Get the recast if that’s your only option, just be selective on where you buy!
Only Death Iron on the outside, banana on the inside.. He’ll collect the imperial fists as a display counter eventually! My partner is already telling me how poor I will become when she collects Space Wolves to counter her Thousand Sons.. wallet/warm bed.. hardest choice of my life o_O
@Only Death Hahaha I'm laughing on the outside but genuinely dying on the inside! xD
@Jesse Johanson Jesse make no mistake, we don't have any friends!
Easy 30k primaris marine...are you ready? #1 Grab some green stuff flatten it into a square- cut strips off, layer it on the legs and arms- (thus making it look like knight armor)#2 sand the chest insignia until its smoothed out #3 head swap #4 paint model in 30k colors. Would you like too go the extra mile? Buy some bits (for whatever factions you like) add 1 or 2 bits per marine. I would recommend 3rd party bits like shoulder pads and accessories just don't go crazy as 30k Marines weren't as decorated as 40K.
Standards, not every one can afford to play it, I haven't spent £2000 on a army to spend 4 hours being reminded what proxy I'm shooting at, same goes with painting, if there has been no attempt at all to paint your models or they are only primed I don't want to play against you, I don't want you out of the community I just don't want to play with you.
Agreed, there seems to be little to no middle ground though, small growth & massive erosion of player base, my finished army that cost $$$ & time painting & research sits idle on a shelf unused without an enemy to fight against, without have a days driving or more effort.
If ya think it frustrating to play against a representative army think about how it is when an immaculate armies player struggles with the rules for it,
How about helping them paint it if that's a concern, they would help you more likely than not, anything to have more players, less armies collecting dust, a new challenge to your superior skills, or just a threat to your advantage, try turning an opportunity to disappoint or judge into a friendship & contributor to the hobby
5:42 Shame FW haven't kept to that standard
Great video. Question, if you don't mind. I am just getting into HH - Death Guard. They like Dreads. I like Dreads. I have two Leviathans and five Contemptors. I am also planning on adding three castraferrum Dreadnoughts (Dreadnought talon). Given they are 40k models, what would you do to make them look and feel more 30k? Is there a model that is better suited ("regular", venerable, ironclad)?
As per usual, the only people complaining about elitism or gatekeeping are people who aren't willing to make the effort to be part of a group, and want to change the group to exclude anyone they personally deem morally unrighteous.
James - "that's where it gets tricky though I think because who's to say what enough effort is?
I rarely share pics of this project cause they get ripped into, but I'm happy that I've created a Blackshields force wearing archaic suits of power armour, led by Endryd Haar with the effort I've put in, but it's totally subjective. The more coherent and polite criticism has suggested I should change the poleyns or greenstuff the armour but if I'm happy then isn't that enough?
I'm aware that I'm using a personal example and this isn't just about me, but I guess I'm trying to show that everyone hobby's differently and that we should bear in mind whether us not liking something is grounds for"
Are we gonna have a cultural 'split' in Warhammer like we do in the United States. With the, two different narratives and all?
Yo Macca, can you do a rundown of the Mournival events books, its taken over completely here and replaced official rules and seems to be spreading across the country.
Upvote for this!
The Legion Speakeasy podcast on PodBean did a full rundown of the books.
What are peoples thoughts on Sternguard legs on Mk IV marines? I can't work out which armour mark the legs are but I don't think it is visually jarring. This is for an ultramarines army. Would value some advice.
I assume it's for a veteran tactical squad or something like that? Tabards are kind of out of place imo, unless you're playing Dark Angels I guess. To me the legs look like two mk 7/8, one mk 6, one mk 5 and one mk 4. I'd suggest If you use the mk 7/8 legs modify the knee pads to look more like mk 4
Just my 2 cents and It may have been stated already. I started 40k in 4th ed. as a young kid not knowing what the hell I was doing. I got out of the hobby until I started again at the end of 6th, started recollecting models in 7th, and finally playing at the end of 7th up until now. Many SM players I think received a big scare with Primaris, including myself. As though our models that we put time and effort into are being thrown down the tube. I am not an excellent painter but I like the way my Guardians of the Covenant (Dark Angels Successor) have turned out over the years.
I think we are just looking for a universe our Marines can be used in, if and when they do get the big boot in 40k. I would never use primaris but would it be frowned upon using the improper color scheme and certain armor/vehicle patterns of the same models?
The IW warsmith is my base for not-Kyr Vhalen, the Night Lords Hero is my NL Siege Breaker with no conversion done (or necessary IMO - the helmet clearly isn't standard issue and sort of looks like MK V, the legs are either MK VI or V but could count as artificer armour, combi-flamer is trash but kind of charming, the fist torso and backpack are phenomenal).
Got four ads to this video, three of which were for Maccas.
I think they're trying to use your name for branding.
I agree, communities need some sort of minimal standards to do otherwise would invite disaster for said community.
Your right on the money here circle, when you play it should be telling a story.
Great I have time to take drink before it starts
It's not a very long video!
It's always time to drink!
Hikki Gamer eggxarkery !
I think your comment on how being lazy with reusing an army in spite of a killer paintjob is sorta against the elitism that a lot of people expect. Lots of people I've talked to have been scared off of the heresy because of thinking they need a perfectly painted army, when the real thing is the sign of effort. My squats are, IMO, rather poorly painted, but it was the best I could do at the time, and I have had plenty of people comment that it's well done army for the heresy, in spite of technical errors and lack of skills. It's not elitism as you said, it's holding to a standard, and it's so odd that people just don't see that. The army could be shoddily painted, to a degree, but you put effort into all the little details of the armour or the iconography, and it would still be a good heresy army because of that.
Also it's kinda fun to have the historical guide lines for painting stuff, in HH as well as historical war games. Some people may see it as stifling to their creativity, but there really is a depth of creativity in historical settings.
Out of curiosity, what do you think of people using Custom Models?
You forgot minor conversion and Vulkan hestan is a great praetor for a salamanders army
Good vid.
Mac, i have a few later amour mark miniatures that i have painted for Hersey Dark Angels thankfully its mostly the veterans squad which gives me robes that cover what could be detail problems and some of the heads have mark 4 helmets or just faces. I do have 2 guys that have a later post heresy helmet mark would they be ok on tabletop?
To add i recently picked up a box of Mark 3's, a Command squad(which i will convert if the armor is too modern as my first real attempt to do conversions) and some Mark IV's.
Would this be good for the start of a 30k army? I am relatively new to building an army and recently switched to wanting to do 30k when i got into the lore
Glad to see you sharing reason and telling it how it is. especially with the wrong units for setting/era analogy.
I want to play 30k but want to use the correct mimis for it.
Makes me think of when a group of soldiers played with sticks and stone a 40k' game, elitismen is basicly just about to secure certain standards, doesnt matter about what, sport, tabletop, cars, music fans etc etc
You missed something with the title; standards are a form of exclusion but that doesnt mean it's bad. A restaurant wouldnt seat you at a table if you're buck naked just like how I wont play a game with you if your entire army is grey plastic or two flat colors. Having a standard involves excluding those people who dont fit sed set standard, which everyone in society is totally okay with except when it comes to tabletop games for some reason.
I think standards are fair. People don’t owe you a game. If someone pays for an event, which in some cases involves a lot of travel, have a great painted thematic army, it’s quite immersion breaking to fight against grey mk VIIs. There will always be some people who use any standards to push people around unfairly, but by and large if they are enforced in an even handed and understanding way, that’s great. You can have rules and standards and inclusivity aims but they all boil down to don’t be a dick. Don’t fuck with your opponent’s immersion, don’t be a dick because someone isn’t a top painter if they’ve tried.
I'm not going to tell anyone what the standard is, equally so though, I won't be told what to do by randos or guilt-tripped into it either.
Is it a reasonable rule of thumb that anything pre Mk7 is OK for Marines...and maybe avoid Aquila chest plates unless you're Emperor's Children??
What about the FW Contemptor with Aquila?
@Only Death the standard contemptor kit comes with an aquilla chest, the very first one they release with 30k in mind.
@Only Death i'm not sure what your basing that one, unless you lack the proper context?
It's a 30k model thats been sale for 40k because there was no 30k when it was released. It's been on sale from FW as part of the Horus Heresy range since day 1.
It was originally released with the MK pattern armours when FW backdoor piloted Horus Heresy through the babad wars books because they weren't sure it would be safe to launch on its own. The kits sold and FW committed.
Only Death ahh the crayola standards.
If FW are selling it as a Horus Heresy model it’s a horus heresy model.
Only Death those’ll be those crayola standards that don’t actually affect the gameplay or quality of an army, just personal preferences on the detailing of mini’s?
“Ticking certain boxes” is essentially “your enjoying your hobby wrong” once you get past the basic criteria you’d expect at say the event level.
The basics such as painted, based and not a completely random mini that’s throw in as a proxy all should be good.
Your bringing something clearly a space marine with a plasmagun to use as a marine with a plasmagun? Sweet.
You want your ork dread to proxy a contemptor? Gtfo.
The discussion of detailing at the individual model level’s fine if you want to invest to that extent, but once your into the realms of excluding people over types of marines being used then your no longer enjoying a hobby, your gatekeeping.
When I go to my local store/group Im plesently surprised if my opponent has painted anything at all. It's sad and disappointing
Its between the the parties playing. Its a social contract. Its up to them and no one else. Either way be decent and accept that. No matter how elite you are someone will think its not good enough even tho you think your one of the elitist. Which is humorous.
True. For me lore and expansive background is what differentiates warhammer in general from other tabletops. It adds depth, context and intensifies immersion. And that lore is evoked through minis (and terrain). However, I wouldn't necessarily call the people from 40k "proxying" their way into 30k lazy. I'm thinking of them as financially shrewd. Cant blame them for trying - hh is even more punishing for the wallet than regular 40k. I mean, you get the most bang for your buck if you can get your ultramarines both in 40k and 30k and - maybe - even in AoS, you know, superhuman, boys in blue, swords, fighting bad guys - same sort of stuff. Worth a shot, right?
30k standards seems simillar to narrative 40k. I don't enjoy playing against armies with no story or concept. I'm not gonna refuse to play against somebody because of it but I'm still going to be dissapointed and their lack of effort will probably result in me not arranging future games with them.
Perhaps that is how the standards should be set to an extent, if people want to play narratives and campaigns they must know how to represent their chosen force and treat it with the respect it deserves, (with abit more freedom for say custom chapters in 40k or a force like blackshields in 30k having abit more leeway?) whilst in matched one might need to make sure that their army is clearly defined and recognizeable as it is the most serious taken format. Open play is where people can chuck almost anything they have on the field be it a very complex conversion or simple one-coat duders. yea or nay?
@@Noxims47314 For me standards are very clearly about the effort and imagination of the player. I'd be perfectly happy to play against "cinematic marines" which are space marines using Custodes tabletop rules to better represent how they feel in the novels. If the conversions and paintjobs done by the player made it feel like my army of flesh tearers, was fighting against an army of grizzled veterens.
At the end of the day, the goal of playing a game of 40k or 30k isn't just to have fun on the tabletop, it's to have a fun story to tell friends and other hobbiests. Whether that's because the game was really tactically close and challenged both players, or because there was a fun story created.
I think many people don't understand that the 30k community has more in common with historical war games than with 40k. The adherence to the time period is part of the point. If I show up to Black Powder event with my Union Infantry painted in hot pink, I wont be welcome there. If you show up to a 30k event with hell blasters, you're going to have a bad time.
Genuine question. Have you ran into anybody fielding RT era miniatures in 30k games? Also how would /did you feel about it?
I did, and i loved it.
I've got no issue with primaris in 30k so long as they're modelled to represent the units. In casual games painting job's aren't a big concern because 90% of normal people would like to enjoy their armies whilst the painting process is happening
75% of 40k (real life table top gamers) I've ever known don't play, collect or spend due to exclusion & elitist outlook of some companies & players.
They play online or find inclusive groups where they can be themselves
Tell that 75% to paint their models and they fit right in.
I can say that I feel excluded, but not because of painting. It's the edgybois that make tournament netlists that win in 2 turns that make me uninterested in the game, so I just do hobby work instead
Here are the standards everyone should follow. If you cannot follow them you should be gatekept out of the hobby
Basic understanding of the rules, or at least the ability to learn them
Respect your fellow players, whether that be politically or not.
Lose gracefully, no tantrums, obfuscation or gaslighting. If you lose at the end you accept it and move on
No cheap min maxing or tactics that can ruin the fun of the game
Wash yourself ffs
Paint your minis at least to the point it is easily understood visually what they are.
What you see is what you get. No proxies.
That's it. If you've been in the hobby for an extended period of time then you probably do all of this already and there's no issue. If not, then ask someone to teach you. It's all basic hobby etiquette.
In my opinion wysiwyg is beneath rule of cool within certain parameters. For instance im working on a 1k sons assault squad using the blade occult torsos because they look so amazing
My main problem with WYSIWYG is that I have probably 25 Mk. III and IV Marines kitted out as so-called "glory squads" with nothing but swords, axes, hammers, and pistols. And they aren't Assault Marines. And they don't fit as Tacticals either. Meaning I have a bunch of models that cannot, according to the rules, be legally played. I have to ask every single time a play a friendly game just to get them on the table. I don't go to tournaments because I am fine with friendly competition, not sweaty neck beards who brought a Knight list or Custodian blob.
Basically, WYSIWYG works well when you follow the directions of the kit. In my case, I like sticking on lots of bits from other kits to abide by the rule of cool. So, maybe that is one standard that can be overlooked occasionally for idiots like me who want a thematic bunch of plastic dude men rather than an entirely "legal" army list.
That's my biggest issue with some 40k players. Zero is put effort into their armies and it kinda ruins things for narrative games.
What a swell guy Macca is. He's just a very reasonable and rational man. I can't help but call him a swell chap.
My word bearers have a MK 6 beakie.....okay there’s two I’m SORRY MACCA DONT BEAT ME
If its cool with the person you're playing then why not and also to a person running an event.
Christ are we still talking about Simon's army? Its a beautifully painted 40k army, even he said it wasnt 30k, WD just obviously messed up.
I have a simple rule for 30k: what you see is what you get, if you see in a tournament a primaris squad or any model and it DOES NOT lookk like the squad that you want it to represent then you have done something wrong. BTW there should be standards because Golden Demon and other tournaments have standards and my best advise is to follow their them. Golden demon wont accept a 40k primaris in any 30k category only if the conversion fits their rules. Not everyone can follow those standards but it serves well as a guidence on how to convert. As Mecca said the colourscheme should not matter because if you imagine Simons primaris sons of horus with no paint on them they will look like standard primaris. That is another way on how i would use converting models into something diffirent.
Without set standards where would you be? A third world country?
Look at it as a house or building with a leaky roof. you dont have the correct or matching parts to fix the tiles or leadwork so you plug the gaps with sub standard or mismatching or incorrect parts and you get water seeping in. The water gradually rots the wooden beams and supports, the plaster blows off the walls from the damp. water pipes and electrics fail adding to the downward spiral. You keep trying to fix the thing using quick bodges or cheap foreign labour, that again doesnt follow set standards and before long all you need to do is give the front door a stern kick and the whole rotten edifice collapses in on its self.
The false comparison here is amazing. Your comparing building codes designed for safety to a tabletop game with LITERALLY no real life consiquences if someone brings a box of mk7 marines to represent mk3 marines, or uses a primaris plasma squad to represent a marine plasma squad.
I think you should re-asses the point you were trying to make.
@@kasperhawser6431 The comparison is fair from a subjective standpoint.
You perhaps might be missing the bigger picture.
There's literally nothing stopping someone playing with there mates and using half a toilet roll as a landraider and a couple of biscuits as plasma squad.
Personally i have some 250+ 40k midget marines. with my various veteran squads and characters i have strived to make them all as close to mk6 armour as possible through kitbashing and forward planning. But not for one instant would i consider using them in a game of 30k.
personal choice, personal standards.
cheers
yeahokno then perhaps you could assist me, why did you reference professional standards at the start then move to personal standards?
What you do in your hobby is your choice, but if your choice is to subject other people to your personal standards then they’ve stopped being personal standards.
@@kasperhawser6431 Id be happy to try to assist you. I reference professional standards because i work in the building trade. I run my own plastering company where my high standards of quality and work ethics allow me to be in constant demand. mainly working in very old houses that sometimes have been badly repaired/ maintained, i know what happens if standards are not followed, gradual decline.
As stated there is nothing stopping whomever from playing a bowl of potatoes as a squad expensive legion specific terminators, just dont expect people who have tried to put time and money in resenting you for doing so.
you would be laughed out of a tournament for trying something like that but between friends where it doesnt matter then who cares?
i personally wouldnt subject others to my demands on the tabletop but would be hesitant to give them the time of day. primaris marines in 30k is immersion breaking. unrealistic. lazy. so on.
As previously stated i woulnt dream of trying to use my painstakingly kitbashed mk6 armoured vets in a propper game of 30k as its not fair for the others who made the effort and financial cost.
again, personal choice and standards
and without standards where would you be?
Cheers!
Again, i cant convey how much time and effort i have taken to make my vets as close to heresy era mk6 armour, i just wouldnt force them apon someone with a genuine 30k army.
I agree with most of the points but it does show the rhetoric of GW/FW when they push the primaris so excessively it slips into 30k, which I definitely agree allows for a lower standard.. My store wouldn't let you play upstairs without painting the models and I'm not gonna lie I never heard any outrage but then again it was almost 10 years ago now so the chances are people just didn't care by default. I don't think it's gate keeping as such however I don't think GW will wanna create more walls that exist in their franchise so it leads me to believe that they go with the inclusive route as it adds perceived value like the Drones they've just released that can be listed in any army even though theme/character is HUGELY important in this franchise and these guys are devoid of any of that however do have a reasonable statline...... The standards have been set for years and years! :/
It's vital to have standards. You can't just be included as a "fan" or "hobbyist" if you don't put in the effort. If you call yourself a Gamer because you play mobile games, you're not a Gamer.
5:41, it's elitist in this situation
Sorry, couldn't resist being elitists
Just like how a 40k 'RUclipsr' who doesnt part take in the miniatures aspect of the hobby, aka 'The actually hobby of Wargammer', diminishes the community. Never mind toxic chad-wannabe bravado that is hiding social inadequacy. *ahem*
This video touches on important points what attracts new players, we gotta keep the standard up because, well that price bar is so high lol
And this Video is the reason why I won't play 30k
Not everyone can put in the effort, so that's probably a good thing
@@fabianvallejo4414 don't get me wrong I play 40k and have over 12000 points Nurgle everything build and around 7000 Painted. But if this Video represents the 30k community I'm out and will never be a part of it.
@@meisterhyperion207 While it doesn't represent the 30K community, I don't personally see what he's saying that's controversial. Could you clarify your POV?
@@eddymercan7487 elitist thinking and gate keeping is bad. These people always claim that it is good, but in fact no. Just imagine you have a new player who wants to start the hobby and you tell him to go fuck himself because he didn't reach you standard and hasn't paintet his full army. Are you sure you want to be that guy?
@@meisterhyperion207 who is doing that? It's one thing to teach someone a game, or to play at home, it's another to rock up to a paid event with some junk you threw together because you don't care, it's just toy soldiers.
Is paying full price for Forgeworld models part of that social contract of the community or would it perhaps be rank hypocrisy to judge others when advocating for recast models?
Asking for a community who supports the game rather than Chinese recasters.
Im sorry i think your wrong on almost all your points. If someone wants to play 30k and they only have a 40k chapter then i say let em. My only real point is models must represent their intended unit eg you need a rino so you use a razorback with no gun.
Not everyone has a huge amount of disposable income to throw £60 plus weapons on a 10 man tactical squad. I personally use 40k vehicles in my armies, i do however remove all Aquilas from them and use legion transfers. This is because i have bills and other expenses in my day to day life. I have ran demo games of 30k for a guy who only had a 40k army and he used regular marines in 30k formations, yes it was a little odd for iron hands to fight death guard painted as howling griffins but so what?! If you want to turn round and say to people "your not welcome to play this games because you haven't put enough "effort" (money) into it." Then all you are doing is harming this comunity. This game. You are doing damage to the SOCIAL nature of table top war gaming and i hope you have enough plays in you area to do that because your player group will stagnate and never have any new blood.
@Only Death please dont get me wrong i know people who take a 40k model and put it into 30k with massive conversion and they look awesome but if some kid wants to play 30k and they only have pocket money sort of income why shouldnt they
Agree to disagree... If you do not have money to buy golf clubs then nobody will let you play golf with a stick or umbrella. “Community” organised itself and set standards long before your arrival and if you prefer to play by “different rules” then do not expect acceptance. A player wants to be part of 30k community not the other way around (community doesn’t chase the player and begs him to play)
I'm sorry, but I think you're wrong.
A 30k praetor model costs as much as a modern Primaris captain. A MK III or MK IV tactical squad is less expensive than a Primaris intercessor box. A Deimos rhino costs less than a Primaris Impulsor. A primaris upgrade kit for say, imperial fists, is over half the cost for a full legion transfer sheet, and the upgrade kit only equips one squad.
Many 40k vehicles are fine with the proper loadout,. Mars pattern rhinos existed in 30k, and with a MK III kit or something, you can easily convert a twin linked bolter using the parts in the rhino kit and some extra phobos bolters. This is something like 10 minutes of modeling work to create, I don't think it's an unreasonable ask to have vs. a 40k storm bolter for instance.
Galen Helfter I feel a bit like that’s a little close to cherry picking because forge world have loads of models that cost a lot more then the 40k counters like the my blood angels are suddenly a lot more expensive if I replaced the terminator assault squad(blood angel exclusive) with the crimson paladins which is significantly more money or I could use a plastic cataphractii set but that’s still a massive time investment to get it looking close to those 2 sets in ornate design and I am not saying you should use the terminator assault squad but I do think it’s slightly bizarre to claim that 30k is not the obvious winner in being more expensive in comparison to 40k i can see how you could have a specific force that is as cheap as possible but that doesn’t mean that things like the legion falchion stop existing or for that matter almost all the vehicles for 30k being very expensive and this stuff on forge world will be someone’s first exposure to the setting more often then not so honestly if someone uses 40k stuff while they get their feet wet I don’t see the issue while they slowly add the more expensive 30k things later.
@Starseer How is that cherry picking? Those are all core units that are necessary to enter in and play the game, compared to their equivalents to start a 40k force.
You shouldn't be using Crimson Paladins and tons of unique units when trying to learn the game or get your feet wet anyways, you should start smaller with simple units.
I want it to be more exclusive & have even higher standards. The same people complaining about this crap wanted an easy mode in dark souls/bloodborne. All average people do in niche hobbies is cause companies to lower the standard & appeal to the lowest common denominator. Then these people eventually abandon the hollowed, raped, husk once it's not in style anymore. If we want this not to happen, we basically have to be as unwelcoming as possible to people new to the hobby who show a subversive, lazy, &/or hostile attitude. We've seen this happen too many times before & we can all see the mainstream p.c. guns slowly turning towards GW
See, I disagree with everything in this video, but you have a point if you care about the lore more then the game. I play 40k and 30k, I grew into 40k, literally having to use paper cut outs on bases that is how little money I was able to spend in this game now I spend nothing because online is easier and cheaper. I say all this to say firmly I like the strategy of 40k and 30k while I am a lore nerd and can tell what marines fit where and what don't, I don't care in a game if it is supposed to be a narrative campaign, you have a point if you are playing a campaign there is a reasonable expectation, but if you are just throwing models on a board because like me you prefer strategy over looks, that is okay to.
I do have to say, if you wont play someone because their army isn't painted, or isn't WUSIWUG, or isn't the right armor, you aren't someone I want to play with in the first place, this game is about a love for a common hobby, not about who has the most accurately scaled marines of the bunch. I play this game to kill little plastic men and watch my little plastic men fall over dead. If you play this game to have the most accurate army in the world and all the scaling and armor is accurate to the mm, more power to you. But realize that not everyone feels the same way and that even if they don't feel the same way it doesn't make them lesser in the hobby or better then you, it just means they care for other aspects more. I know a guy who plays Emperor's Children on Table Top Simulator he could play literally any other faction and win more but he loves Emperor's Children. I hate him for it he doesn't buy models, he just plays online, he just loves them so much he only ever wants to play them. And I respect that, do I have to tone down my (what ever legion I am playing at the time(LION FOR LIFE)), ya sure. But I have fun by playing the game and having fun with strategy's.
Now if you are someone who puts 0 effort into making you models accurate expect this mentality from people the semi-elitist idea that F-18s can't be fighting in the battle of London. But show those people that you care more for the strategy and the game over the lore and the accuracy, show them that you have a passion for the same hobby and love the same things just at different levels.
So can we all just get along and have fun without people needing to make 10 minute long videos about why they love the lore and accuracy? Can we all just get along, the world is tearing it's self to shreds around us and we still bicker about this? Is this really the best use of all our times? Maybe it doesn't matter as much as we think it does, maybe the world is a bit smaller then we thought it was, and maybe we can ll love the same hobby, the same game, the same lore, without holding all in at the same import.
You want us all to get along, but apparently that only works if we adhere to your "standards" and don't care about lore? I don't know why that should be acceptable, the lore and "hobby" part of warhammer is just as important as the actual gameplay.
@@lumberfoot2004 The lore and hobby part are EVEN MORE important than the gameplay. Without those aspects, there is no immersion and you might as well play with coins or whatever lying around.
@@terryr9052 The lore, the hobby and the game are, and can be all completely separate from each other. They can be all tied in together. That is the problem with gatekeeping.
There are communities that don't care about fluff and only want the most optimized list to win in a competition.
There are communities that only care about the fluff, and only buy the units to be placed within a campaign setting.
There are communities that only care about the hobby and compete to be judged on how well they hobby.
@@EchoMirage72 I agree that there are seperate communities and each one should gatekeep according to their respective standards. The competitive communities should care and not accept if an individual keeps forgetting or being dishonest about rules. The painting communities should care about the standard to which the models are painted. The fluff communities should not accept individuals who are not faithful to the lore.
Terry R this is a very slippery slope though because this is the sort of thing that would fracture your community rather then bring us together and even then it’s an idea that fundamentally doesn’t work what happens when someone takes their newly painted army to show it to people and ask for ways to improve and they get a slap to the face because it isn’t good enough do you think that person is going to keep collecting or do you think you have just pushed someone away who will describe their experience as very toxic and unwelcome and before you say they could just play exclusively or delve into lore what if they just liked the interesting plastic people and didn’t care for a complicated game or an overwhelmingly large story. Gatekeeping isn’t the way forward for a growing player base you need to actually inform people of changes they could make in a manner that won’t piss people off or seem antagonistic.
Bruh this guy talking about squad markings and shit my word bearers are definitely not to maccas “standards”..
I didn't mention that once in the video. I said the exact opposite in fact, that it doesn't have to be correct, just make an effort.
@@TheOuterCircle lol I wasn’t bagging on you, more myself for not going to that level lol. I actually agree with most everything you said in this video, quality seriously matters, I face too many grey armies in my 40k games..
I’m glad to say I got decals on my bad boys in red now.👹👌