Not being able to see the forest for the trees was my problem too! Having my eyes opened & rising above the Mormon ground to see the forest, truly was being open to letting others share & myself experience other people's views
Wow - thank you for sharing! I have never heard someone explain the deep feeling and specifics of why I left the LDS church and why I can never go back to the small thoughts that I was taught and brain washed growing up. I left after my heart and mind became open as a single mom. My spirituality is grander and more loving than my years in the Mormon religion. I understand God so much more and on a deeper personal level. I felt so limited in the church but now having left - I feel limitless!
Some definite similarities and common ground in many ways with my journey out. I appreciate Mormon Stories for doing this. It's healthy for ex-Mormons who have been through (or in my case are still going through) a painful divorce from the church and church culture and knowing I'll be shunned the rest of my life. Hopefully it may also in some ways strengthen the church. One reason I've commented a lot lately on youtube or Mormon blogs is that I wish people in the church would finally listen.
I can't say enough about about how much i enjoyed watching this story! Such an articulation of ones journey and beliefs! Sometimes i wonder why i watch these videos, being an excommunicated member myself. I think the answer is that it brings me a sense of fellowship with like minded individuals. It is more uplifting than anything i ever experienced; when i saw the church through different lenses.
+John Lee what a Christian Mormon exemplar!! It's great to see your true colors fly high for all to see. I'm sure the brethren would applaud your efforts to spread the good word.
+John Lee actually I think that's exactly what Jesus did. Sat down. Took it. And died. But he's your hero not mine. I judge you by your own standards, not by my standards. And as a former missionary I learned those standards inside and out. Sorry if it stings. Sounds like a personal problem.
"Mental gymnastics" That's exactly how I would characterize my treatment of the inconsistancies I saw. I also taught and instructed at extremely high levels, and shudder at my stupidity. I wasted 50 years watching my church lie to me. BASTARDS! I want my money back! Thanks for these.
What she said about the nature of God was beautiful. It's difficult to communicate that to even my parents. But God is more than I was brought up to believe. There's a love that is so much more powerful and giving.
These stories make me feel less lonely as I’m going through my own version of the shelf breaking and figuring out for myself the church’s truth claims are false.
In essence the LDS church has done a disservice because whenever people find out about the doctrinal and historical distortions made by the church, they don't just leave the church but also become disaffected with God. Fortunately for this couple they actually found the true God after they left. Beautiful story!
I admire both John and Brooke's courage in coming to terms with the Mormon churches lies and cover-ups. Seeking the truth is the most important thing. Undoing the decades of "brainwashing" is very difficult and I admire the hell out of both of you.
This is powerful I feel so sorry for these people. I have had Mormon friends and I am black. I loved one Mormon girl in High school a wonderful girl just super. I pray that she finds a way out she deserves it and all of my other friends deserve to get out also.
I just love these videos, because they feel so real and I learn, enjoy and suffer a lot. People talk about things that are most important to them and that are really close to their hearts. I am an active member and am growing in understanding because of these videos. There are questions I don't find a solution for and that are extremely complicated to understand (homosexuality seems to be an awful trap when being a member for example). I just love this couple, they are so thoughtful, so honest, so open and articulate. I myself believe our life can be very interesting and colorful when we just go by the feelings that we find in our hearts. Who says we can't discuss for hours with gay people? We should not be so dependent of what we are being told but go by our own impressions and feelings. We should not be a slave to rules but obey God (not men) who isn't as narrow as we tend to believe. Plus I think, that the church is making lots of mistakes and it belongs to our growing process to learn to live with those but not leaving the church altogether for those. There is so much truth in this church, so much happiness and orientation. Why throwing away the most precious truths we are learning from the gospel because there are mistakes we don't approve of and issues we don't fully understand at this time?
This was absolutely fantastic. Some notable points for me: - Even though there's a bullet list of issues, there is no "silver bullet." It's the overall dishonesty about the organization's history and core that really cause problems. - With that, the disconnect that you know that J.S. practiced polygamy, but somehow his only known wife is Emma is a prime example of the manipulative mind games that are used. The same goes for connecting tithing with "paying for a temple recommend"
This video makes me feel as though I am finally starting to understand where John Dehlin is coming from. For the first time I really felt love for him, and I felt inspired by Brooke.
You're everywhere. John Lee! Being a miserable troll, denigrating people and not showing any respect. You're the opposite of most Mormons I know. If you are a member, you're a bad example of one. Your disrespect and vitriol against people who doubt or leave is actually damaging the church.
John Lee Hey John, I feel bad for you that you feel this insecure about your faith that you can't respect another's disagreeing with you. Look at yourself.
He outlines the nature of life, the purposes of our being here, the nature of man, the nature of good and evil. LDS doctrine is phenomenal in helping us understand how good can be made to appear evil. Dehlin has become a master of this. A lot of people lose their testimonies of the Gospel when they allow negativity and out-of-context historical snippets to create doubt and confusion. Anti-Mormonism destroys faith it does not build it. There's always a whole lot of whining going on.
There are things I wish I could share that I think would strengthen the church. But I know church leaders won't listen, they'll just tell me I'm wrong and shut me down and shut me out. That's sad to me. Yes I've lost something. At the risk of sounding prideful the church is losing something too. That's sad as well.
It's clear they feel personal pain, and correct, the pain they admit in the "me" part doesn't "glow." Pain typically doesn't glow. And it's clear they wish to communicate love not venom for people in the church. Many ex-Mormons would likely agree that most believing Mormons they've known genuinely are good people with kind hearts.
It was very unfortunate that President Hinckley and others taught the idea that the Church is either (all) true or it is (all) false, and that there is no middle ground. This has never been the case, and insisting that it is will only lead to "hard landings" like what the McLays experienced. The middle ground is, in my opinion, right where things are, and have always been.
56:45 - 57:05--Amen sister! I've experienced something similar, and even though I don't fully understand it, and I don't know how or when or where it's going to end up, I think I know exactly what you're talking about.
That's exactly the verses that sets forth the qualifications of a bishop. [Verse 6] If any (of the aforementioned appointed elders from verse 5) be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. [Verse 7] For a BISHOP must be blameless, as the steward of God; Using "For a..." indicates that the verse is related to the verses preceding it, as if it were a conclusion. If it was an unrelated stanza, it would just say "A bishop..."
"The history that I have been taught and that I am teaching, does not coincide with what really happened." This kind of sums up what so called "anti" mormon have claimed all along.
What is so threatening that the church would need to hide or cover up the facts? Truth is not often found within lds apologetics. The truth will set you free.
I was not excommunicated. I am not filled with "pride". I found that the God I wanted to follow loves so much more deeply and broadly than can be put in a small box where only a few are allowed. Oh yeah, and I'm a lesbian. Hardly a pride issue. A desire to be accepted by your religion/God has nothing to do with being prideful. It has to do with deciding if God is love or if God is a separatist once-human who has nothing better to do than separate family members from one another. For me it has nothing to do with whether or not JS married 40 women. (Although, I am disgusted.) For me it's all about the Love Jesus professed would define us as His disciple. Love this message of Technicolor! Thanks for sharing your message.
I have always asked myself the same question, as this couple did on this video, Why do you have to pay money in order to obtain the temple recommend? ( Known as TR ) LDS leaders always demand their members whether they are paying their tithe ( this is one of the questions they ask, before they grant the TR ) if the answer is yes, they ask you again the same question, are you sure that................????????? in full knowledge that you are not paying your tithing, and this is because they keep records on how much you pay every month. In my view, tithing, is a commandment that you pay for your faith to your God, regardless whether is a 10 % or more, and that should be a secret between the person and God, This is a wicked way of extracting money from their members, making you feel that you are not obeying the tithing law ending in a refusal of the TR. In conclusion, the LDS church claims that at the beginning of the creation, Lucifer's plan was rejected, because he wanted to force all of us to obey god's commandments and to take us back to his presence. the celestial kingdom. Jesus's plan was to give us freedom to do anything we wanted to do,( free agency ) and that everyone is responsible for thier actions. and therefore, his plan was accepted. according to the LDS teachings I think that the LDS church is doing Lucifer's wishes, by forcing their member to pay their tithing before granting the TR so they can enter to the temples.
These stories make me feel less lonely as I’m going through my own version of the shelf breaking and I’m currently figuring out for myself the church’s truth claims are false and that they’ve covered up so much of the actual history of Joseph smith and the story of the founding of the church.
I'm no longer LDS so I'm not trying to be contrary here. I understand your concern, but I need to correct this just a little. You don't have to serve a mission to have a Temple recommend. That's just not true. There are SO many things in church history that "are" disturbing, so let's stick to the truth. The truth is disturbing enough.
Faith is liberating, it makes us free. If we feel bound, this is not truth. There is life, love and growth in Christ - it opens us up, it draws people. This is a true testimony. If anyone wants to know what "it" is that causes people to leave Mormonism - it seems to me there are 2 things: 1) repulsion to the control and oppression of an institution which is fundamentally hypocritical (sadly this can lead people to atheism) and / or 2) being drawn to the true Jesus Christ (joyfully this leads to real life, now and eternally). God bless! :)
+sh m Watching the video just made me realised why LDS never succeeded in Norway. It is almost impossible to make women into good mormon wife's here.... We probably have the most independent women in the world, with lots of women in politics, leader positions, we have a female prime minister and so forth. So for an average Norwegian lady its unthinkable to become a very submissive, quiet woman that always lets her husband take the lead. Completely unthinkable. :)
+Helen E Mormon women are not expected to be like that or like that for the most part. Most Mormon men I know treat their wives as queens. Some women or even men are naturally more submissive.
+Helen E Marriage is a big part of our religion and both men/women are believed to be incomplete without their partner, but not pathetic or anything. I'm single and I've never felt incomplete in a bad way. I do want a partner to be with, but I think that's many people, not just LDS. Until that right person comes along though, I travel, I'm working on my degree, I work, and have a full filled life; my husband will only add to my amazing life when he comes and I hope I can add beauty to his life as well.
Thank you for the compliment.! :-) Your inference is that I assert this nation upholds all the will of God. That is not what was stated. You are wont to put words both in God's mouth & mine, but we steadfastly resist your doing so. Catch that if this nation upheld less of God's will the nation would be in even worse dire straits. That is the main & plain meaning. Always, go for that first, whether the Bible or writing outside the Books of the Bible. Save yourself from much misunderstanding.
I just realised why LDS never grew in Norway. It is almost impossible to make women in to good mormon wife's here.... We probably have the most independent women in the world, with lots of women in politics, leader positions, we have a female prime minister.. and so forth. So for an average Norwegian lady its unthinkable to become a very submissive, quite woman that always lets her husband take the lead. Unthinkable. :)
If you do a little research you will soon find out that many early converts joined the church in Norway and then migrated to the USA. An LDS woman is well educated, very independent, totally loyal to virtue and chastity. An Latter day saint woman is a mother and a daughter of God who has a true knowledge of who she really is and how much God loves and value her. She is an equal partner with her husband if she is married and if not, she is still greatly valued and loved by Christ and our Heavenly Father. God bless women of courage and virtue because our world is a better place because of them. I fear you are mocking goodness and virtue at your own peril!
The Mormons don't get many converts in any Nordic country. I'm not sure why, but religion isn't a strong influence there, many people are agnostic or atheistic. Good for them.
My great grandfather moved here to Utah from Norway when him and his brother were around ten years old. So of course he became a mormon, I'm a mormon ex and sometimes wish my grandfather would have stayed in Norway! But I got to know him pretty well because he didn't die until I was about 10 and he was 89. I still love the man and always did he was a great guy. By the way his last name was sitterud and we named our first grandson Ole after his great great grandfather.
Wow Dr you are quite rude and un loving for a Christian! I would just like to say thanks for being I. This interview you two. It is so amazing to see the love you two share together. I wish my awaking bad turned out the sAme with my wife.
My last comment was a bit harsh. I'm just so shocked by how you've gotten from where you were to where you currently are. I have not seen anybody ask you this, so I will. What are your current beliefs about the Book of Mormon?
I don't want to invalidate her feelings, however as a Mormon I've never had an issue with the friends I have of different views and ways of life. I've never had to limit my social life. I still feel open to beauty and love on every level.
I'm a very logical person myself. Let's see: Joseph Smith had a third grade education, was from a uneducated family in Palmyra, which even though it was on the Erie Canal, it was not known as a knowledge center. He some how got a book out in sixty-five days, without any real edits to the original text, with many Hebrew literary patterns, syntax, etc. I am his age at the time he translated, I'm a college student, and I can barely write a Digimon Fanfic without rewatching every episode multiple times. and it is taking me FOREVER to write. I can only say he translated by the power of God an ancient text.
+LDSRaichu Incorrect. See the unedited first edition of the Book of Mormon (1830). The book you see now in 2016 is not the same at all as the unedited first edition
+LDSRaichu By the way if the book is translated from the time period the plates are supposedly buried why are there large sections of the Bible (especially Isaiah) as published in Joseph's time directly inserted in the first edition, unedited Book of Mormon? Please support your claims with evidence through investigation. A testimony should not fear investigation.
While it is true that Smith had a very limited FORMAL education, he was by no means uneducated. There is also evidence that he may have had a lot of help from other people in writing it, such as Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon, and referenced/plagiarized several other books. As to the amount of time spent writing the Book of Mormon, well, Joseph Smith CLAIMED that it was done in that short time span, but that is his unverified story. Some people say he may have spent upwards of four years writing it. There have been nearly 4000 edits to the Book of Mormon since it's first publishing.
LDSRaichuguy The Book of Mormon has been edited and revised so much since 1830 that it's practically a different book (cleaning up Joseph's grammar, paragraph structure, and syntax, changing things like "white and delightsome" and so forth).
In Gen. 21:8-21 is the account of Hagar's departure from Sarah & Abraham. God ordered Abraham to send away Hagar & her son; Abraham obeyed. This was at the time Isaac was weaned. Subsequently Abraham had no relations with Hagar. That Hagar's son was even born was as the direct result of Abraham's & Sarah's impatience & disobedience in not waiting on God to bring forth His promised Son.
TMI trigger warning: self lovin’ I grew up in the church, for context. I was very young, younger than I can even remember, when I started masturbating, and it wasn’t until I was 12 when someone finally talked to me about it. Basically, something I had done naturally as a kid suddenly became taboo, and it shattered my world, it became my biggest source of guilt, and I struggled to stop myself doing it right up until I left the church at the age of 20. Ultimately, I left the church because I felt like I would never be good enough, because I couldn’t keep fighting. So my story of leaving is a little different than other stories, I feel. I dunno, maybe not that unique, but a lot of the exmo conversations I see involve a crisis of faith, or a pushback against the church history, or church policy. For me, all that stuff was gradual and extended over a period of time. I wasn’t violently removed from being a believer in the church, I quietly removed myself, then gradually extricated the church from my life. It wasn’t til years later that I realized, in retrospect, just how messed up a lot of it is/was, because the brainwashing was full and complete, you know, shampoo AND conditioning, you know what I mean? So I guess you could make the argument that I was one of the stereotypical ex Mormons, in that I did leave the church so I was free to do whatever I wanted. But ultimately I arrived at the same destination as the majority of people we see coming forward to tell their Mormon Stories. Thanks for coming to my TED talk
sometimes being intelligent is a curse, you have to deal with issues the church took care of for you, you are a very smart couple, intelligence alone is not enough, you have to have the courage to see the myths might have been good for you. It is right in thinking that the truth will set you free, just be prepared that the truth is not always the easy path.
I know them! They were in my old ward! But I left. Brooke was my music teacher in primary. John was in the bishopric. No kidding! Remember me Brooke? I'm Nicholas I was in your primary!
In U.S. & Canada polygamy has never been a culturally normative or legally recognized institution. LDS eventually ceased the pernicious practice of polygamy because the U.S. government intervened. Many men were sent to jail. Utah was refused statehood unless they complied. Study your church's history. Why do you think polygamy continues as illegal today? What of the undivided attention & faithful affection of one man for one wife & children needful for healthy spirituality & emotionality?
Saddens me to see or hear members say HOW COULD THE CHURCH refuse this or that? God surely could not be that cruel? People forget very very quickly, what God has decreed and is recorded to be pointless and out-dated and especially old! YOU [ people ] want the things of the world, then go into the world and join their churches...... I remember what Christ said about our journey here after Baptism...>>(New Testament | Matthew 7:13 - 14) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it....LOOK for faults and behold, there they are, look for what your eternal identity depends on the out-come but the good and righteousness of God and your eyes are closed?
Gen.16:9. God sent Hagar back to Abraham's family for various reasons, which include the fact that God intended to use such circumstances to help each of these three people to learn to confront their problems His way. Abram had to face them. Sarai had to deal with them. Hagar had to live in them. God's purpose is not only to make you happy. He desires for you to be holy. Forcing you to face your problems is one way of actually accomplishing that!
Answer me, forget about the other people, I didn't ask you about the church, I asked you about your teachings, tell me Cindy, Does heavenly Father have a Father?
Being a member or non-member of the church won't change how many people will be in heaven with you. I think most members misunderstand that most people will eventually make it to the highest degrees of heaven.
JJ Hurtak inspired my focus on Egyptology in 1998. A simple review of the Book of Abraham papyrus art altered by JS identified human looking heads on Egyptian deities especially Anubis the God of the Underworld who guards the gate. Later I heard of Griggs work calling it a funeral text. I was told iJS was inspired and somehow that made it Ok. But it does look really odd. JS basically plagiarized the manuscript and usurped its meaning.
Inspiration enlightens the mind and can be used for both good or bad. It is how you act that reveals your truth. For JS it has revealed a propensity to cover up truth. If he was innocent then he was possessed by a very dark entity that used him and destroyed him! Sandra Tanner explains the Smith family used an intermediary spirit named Abrac of Abracadabra fame as their willing genie in the bottle to aid their magic pursuits. Old world Catholic exorcists call the name of the possessing spirit to remove itself from the body of the possessed. JS was indeed a possessed man.
shelter is a division/barrier to other faith. But Jesus Christ mission is to unite us. Religion is evil. Believing in Christ alone is the key to our salvation.
Very interesting Mormon Story. But it seems to me that they both still possess the "chosen ones" or "holier than thou" attitude that probably led to their apostasy in the first place. They were the "chosen" couple inside the church, and now they are the "chosen" couple that has progressed beyond or risen above the church. Interesting series, though.
According to the rules of "logical induction" the converse also applies to your argument, but that is actually moot, clearly considering that you come short of interpreting Scripture with Scripture. The logic of man is not the authority as to that which the Creator has created His creation. Rather, the authority is His expressed will as recorded in His Word, the Bible, that Record by which He means all documents are to be held to the light of & judged. Be like the Bereans, Acts 17, not Joe!
A fund has been set up to help John McLay, as he transitions into a new place in his life. If you would like to help out, here's the link: www.youcaring.com/help-a-neighbor/new-place-fund-for-john-mclay/115088
I am going by His Word in the Bible. On the subject of whether or not polygamy is sin, it is silent. All it says is that deacons, bishops (and elders) should only have one wife. You believe that means no one in the church should have more than one wife, but that's not what the word says. You can certainly believe that it applies to all members of the church as well, but on what basis? Not scripture.
To look at polygamy you need to look at marriage. In 1 Cor. 7 marriage is addressed always in the context of "wife" & "husband." It does not follow for the singular words to be used, if more than one wife is to be had. If it were acceptable for a man to have more than one wife, the word "wives" would have been used here. The wording of 1 Corinthians 7 absolutely excludes the practice of polygamy. Based on this also you ought to see why your bishops argument falls flat & is unable to rise. :-)
Let us be glad and rejoice, & give honor to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb is come, & His wife has made herself ready .Revelation 19:7 Marriage is a reflection of Christ's relationship with the church -- one groom (Christ) and one bride (the church). Not two Christs marrying (two homosexual men). Not two churches marrying (two lesbian women). Not Christ & many churches (polygamy). Marriage is one man & one woman. Surrender to the Splendor of the Superscendent Son! (Leave off Joe)
Intellectual, analytic observations alone cannot bring one to the true faith. Why? Because "the natural man conceiveth not the the things of God neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned." Pure intellectual pursuit alone leaves no room for the SPIRIT OF TRUTH. Thus the baby of divine inspiration is here being thrown out with the stinking bath water of Joseph Smiths Book of Mormon.
God instructed that kings have only one wife: "Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away." Deut. 17:17 This was exactly the way Solomon went. I Kings 11:4 "For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: & his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God." Without any exception whatsoever the N.T. gloriously describes marriage as one man & one wife! To attempt to refute same is numinous nonsense, sorry setup.
Any nation that upholds the will of God as revealed in the Bible with specific laws of the land has to do with the Bible. No woman who is walking in step with the Spirit of God appreciates her man going into another woman, such is the nature & way of & by which her Creator created her, nor is it conducive to the health of children to relate to mothers' plural personalities which are in consequence split in that role.
OK I know it’s a spam comment but people cheat on their spouses because they get caught up in relationships with other people all the time. No it is not OK for some guy to bring their kid over to your house alone to play because that’s where emotional attachments come from this has nothing to do with religion
You either don't know LDS theology (perhaps you're young, or a recent convert?) or you are fudging on the truth. You are speaking truthfully about "heaven." But you are not speaking truthfully about the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. See the church website where it talks of this if you don't know your church's eschatology.
I don't know the percentage. Perhaps someone else can help you with that. I do know that it's not a requirement. I'm am a strong supporter of getting the truth about the church out there for all so see and hear, but there are a lot of rumors that get passed around. That's one of them.
According to the Bible neither can Christians. Sorry homes, no disrespect meant in the previous comment (the fault of written script is you can't hear voice inflection) But these peeps in these videos have not only read the Bible, they've scoured it looking for the connections to make the faith fit. When they don't within Mormonism, they often times turn to the Bible with the same scrutiny and it all starts to fall apart.
This is really funny to see that these members didn't know about the polygamy or the history of the church. Talk about living in a bubble. This church is going to need to change if it wants to continue in the information age.
Patrick P, sadly it's true. I have known about the polygamy in the church for a couple years now. Prior to that, I had no idea. In the church you are taught to avoid anti-Mormon literature. I recently had a conversation with my mother-in-law where she told me that maybe she needed to a little more research. After I thought about her comment, I called her back and said that if she was really serious about doing the research, I could get her the names of the sites I use that are very unbiased so she could read about what really happened without it being sugar coated, but also not completely slamming it. Basically, she told that she's had experiences in her life that tell her it is true and that she'd rather not know. Talk about ignorance is bliss! You know there is more out there and you simply refuse to look at it.
Bishops are mentioned as to set the example for the church to follow! Because of the hardness of hearts, even as Jesus answered the Pharisees that Moses allowed divorce because of hardness of heart. Jesus said that it was not always so from the beginning, showing that divorce was not God's intention, just as polygamy never was God's will. cf. Mat. 19 Where there was polygamy there was strife & sorrow. God allows abortion, but does that make abortion right? God gave Adam one wife, not more.
Sarah was a wife; Hagar was her maidservant, never married to Abraham, therefore a concubine. God did/does allow some men to have several wives. He also allows children to be molested and murdered and other horrific actions to be taken by people whom He creates and loves. Oh, and tell me again how a man could provide just as much attention, if not more so, to two wives as opposed to one. While he is providing attention to one of the wives, the other's tender heart is breaking. Jacob 2:35
Simply, really. There are but three verses that mention anything about polygamy in the new testament. One is in the context of "overseers", one of "deacons" and the last of "bishops" (as well as "elders" as you understand it). Based on the rules of logical induction, it is invalid to make any conclusions about polygamy for any other groups. Simply put, if something is true for A, it does not mean that it is true for B. It could be, but you can not CONCLUDE that it is definitely true for B.
That is incorrect. Elders, as well as bishops, are instructed to be the husband of one wife. See Titus 1:5-6 Explain why you think bishops & elders would be required to have one wife but not the whole church. And why are elders in the Mormon churches called elders, being merely lads, but real elders, the elders in the one & only true church of Paul's day & ours are actual men, men of maturity, spiritual experience & learning, men with spiritual acuity... if not for cult seduction & flattery?
If I believed the bible and there was never an Israel in real history,then I would have a silly,illogical faith.Most LDS stay because they "prayed about it"&"felt something."Is there evil in the world and have you ever prayed about something and it turned out that what you prayed and felt was wrong?I have.Feelings and the devil can fool all of us.Facts matter,and if the BOM was true,there should be huge archeological proofs.There just aren't-so its not true no matter what feelings you "felt."
@cindybin2001 - Your sarcasm isn't really a defence. Your profile picture has you holding a young child. Examine your conscience as to whether you really want to bring up your children in a church with such horrendous foundations.
I don't presume that since it's plausible, it's his will. The scriptures demonstrate several sanctioned polygamous relationships themselves! If you simply refuse to recognize that patriarchs were polygamyst, then I can do nothing for you.
Some of the Old Testament prophets were polygamists but God never commanded it. And it never turned out well. In the beginning God made one male and one female. The New Testament says that everyone should have one spouse. Also that he who marries does well, but he who does not marry does even better, for he can serve the Lord without distraction.
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Not being able to see the forest for the trees was my problem too! Having my eyes opened & rising above the Mormon ground to see the forest, truly was being open to letting others share & myself experience other people's views
Wow - thank you for sharing! I have never heard someone explain the deep feeling and specifics of why I left the LDS church and why I can never go back to the small thoughts that I was taught and brain washed growing up. I left after my heart and mind became open as a single mom. My spirituality is grander and more loving than my years in the Mormon religion. I understand God so much more and on a deeper personal level. I felt so limited in the church but now having left - I feel limitless!
Some definite similarities and common ground in many ways with my journey out. I appreciate Mormon Stories for doing this. It's healthy for ex-Mormons who have been through (or in my case are still going through) a painful divorce from the church and church culture and knowing I'll be shunned the rest of my life. Hopefully it may also in some ways strengthen the church. One reason I've commented a lot lately on youtube or Mormon blogs is that I wish people in the church would finally listen.
I can't say enough about about how much i enjoyed watching this story! Such an articulation of ones journey and beliefs! Sometimes i wonder why i watch these videos, being an excommunicated member myself. I think the answer is that it brings me a sense of fellowship with like minded individuals. It is more uplifting than anything i ever experienced; when i saw the church through different lenses.
+John Lee what a Christian Mormon exemplar!! It's great to see your true colors fly high for all to see. I'm sure the brethren would applaud your efforts to spread the good word.
+John Lee actually I think that's exactly what Jesus did. Sat down. Took it. And died. But he's your hero not mine. I judge you by your own standards, not by my standards. And as a former missionary I learned those standards inside and out. Sorry if it stings. Sounds like a personal problem.
+John Lee follow the prophet!
+Andrew Belnap Did John Lee just say that...? I hope he's joking..
+John Lee If what you are trying to do is to scare people away from your church, you are on the right track..
"Mental gymnastics" That's exactly how I would characterize my treatment of the inconsistancies I saw. I also taught and instructed at extremely high levels, and shudder at my stupidity. I wasted 50 years watching my church lie to me. BASTARDS! I want my money back!
Thanks for these.
I wonder if we can sue to get our tithe money back, like as a class action. Technically they use emotional manipulation to make us pay...
YESSSSS!
What she said about the nature of God was beautiful. It's difficult to communicate that to even my parents. But God is more than I was brought up to believe. There's a love that is so much more powerful and giving.
You both articulate your journey so well! Thank you for your courage and honesty.
These stories make me feel less lonely as I’m going through my own version of the shelf breaking and figuring out for myself the church’s truth claims are false.
In essence the LDS church has done a disservice because whenever people find out about the doctrinal and historical distortions made by the church, they don't just leave the church but also become disaffected with God. Fortunately for this couple they actually found the true God after they left. Beautiful story!
I admire both John and Brooke's courage in coming to terms with the Mormon churches lies and cover-ups. Seeking the truth is the most important thing. Undoing the decades of "brainwashing" is very difficult and I admire the hell out of both of you.
- Kurt Ralph Armann they divorced and I think John is active again
Thank you, thank you, thank you! Amazing journey!
This is powerful I feel so sorry for these people. I have had Mormon friends and I am black. I loved one Mormon girl in High school a wonderful girl just super. I pray that she finds a way out she deserves it and all of my other friends deserve to get out also.
I just love these videos, because they feel so real and I learn, enjoy and suffer a lot. People talk about things that are most important to them and that are really close to their hearts. I am an active member and am growing in understanding because of these videos. There are questions I don't find a solution for and that are extremely complicated to understand (homosexuality seems to be an awful trap when being a member for example).
I just love this couple, they are so thoughtful, so honest, so open and articulate. I myself believe our life can be very interesting and colorful when we just go by the feelings that we find in our hearts. Who says we can't discuss for hours with gay people? We should not be so dependent of what we are being told but go by our own impressions and feelings. We should not be a slave to rules but obey God (not men) who isn't as narrow as we tend to believe.
Plus I think, that the church is making lots of mistakes and it belongs to our growing process to learn to live with those but not leaving the church altogether for those. There is so much truth in this church, so much happiness and orientation.
Why throwing away the most precious truths we are learning from the gospel because there are mistakes we don't approve of and issues we don't fully understand at this time?
People leave the "church" because it's based on lies and it's just a business, a multi billion dollar business.
@@ASMRyouVEGANyet Yesss!
This was absolutely fantastic. Some notable points for me:
- Even though there's a bullet list of issues, there is no "silver bullet." It's the overall dishonesty about the organization's history and core that really cause problems.
- With that, the disconnect that you know that J.S. practiced polygamy, but somehow his only known wife is Emma is a prime example of the manipulative mind games that are used. The same goes for connecting tithing with "paying for a temple recommend"
21:57 "I felt betrayed" -- same feelings here..
This video makes me feel as though I am finally starting to understand where John Dehlin is coming from. For the first time I really felt love for him, and I felt inspired by Brooke.
God is like a elephant surrounded by blind people. Each blind person can only describe so much and yet there is so much more.
We are loved so beautifully by the Majesty of God.
This eloquent, intelligent couple rejected Mormonism. It's not just old associate-degree blue collar guys like me that leave "the church."
+John Lee
A Cult is an organization that won't let you leave with your dignity intact.
You're everywhere. John Lee! Being a miserable troll, denigrating people and not showing any respect. You're the opposite of most Mormons I know. If you are a member, you're a bad example of one. Your disrespect and vitriol against people who doubt or leave is actually damaging the church.
John Lee Hey John, I feel bad for you that you feel this insecure about your faith that you can't respect another's disagreeing with you. Look at yourself.
John Lee You make that statement as if you aren't weak. They can't get anymore "outside" your church.
John Lee You are so right. It makes it even harder when we find out it's a demonstrable fraud.
great, courageous man. Enlightenment is still alive ---
He outlines the nature of life, the purposes of our being here, the nature of man, the nature of good and evil. LDS doctrine is phenomenal in helping us understand how good can be made to appear evil. Dehlin has become a master of this. A lot of people lose their testimonies of the Gospel when they allow negativity and out-of-context historical snippets to create doubt and confusion.
Anti-Mormonism destroys faith it does not build it. There's always a whole lot of whining going on.
"Maybe I was thinking." Priceless!
Can we get 10+ years later interview with these good people?
There are things I wish I could share that I think would strengthen the church. But I know church leaders won't listen, they'll just tell me I'm wrong and shut me down and shut me out. That's sad to me. Yes I've lost something. At the risk of sounding prideful the church is losing something too. That's sad as well.
It's clear they feel personal pain, and correct, the pain they admit in the "me" part doesn't "glow." Pain typically doesn't glow. And it's clear they wish to communicate love not venom for people in the church. Many ex-Mormons would likely agree that most believing Mormons they've known genuinely are good people with kind hearts.
My heart hurts for these people, and millions who are find out what they were taught about the only true chuch. :(
59:38 yep. not a single one of them has asked me why I left. Majority stopped talking to me. It's as if I stopped existing to them.
Brave guy. Admirable and powerful.
It was very unfortunate that President Hinckley and others taught the idea that the Church is either (all) true or it is (all) false, and that there is no middle ground. This has never been the case, and insisting that it is will only lead to "hard landings" like what the McLays experienced. The middle ground is, in my opinion, right where things are, and have always been.
Even rat poison has some good grain in it. All the leaders lied. It's a toxic cult.
thanks love and blessings!!!
56:45 - 57:05--Amen sister! I've experienced something similar, and even though I don't fully understand it, and I don't know how or when or where it's going to end up, I think I know exactly what you're talking about.
That's exactly the verses that sets forth the qualifications of a bishop. [Verse 6] If any (of the aforementioned appointed elders from verse 5) be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. [Verse 7] For a BISHOP must be blameless, as the steward of God;
Using "For a..." indicates that the verse is related to the verses preceding it, as if it were a conclusion. If it was an unrelated stanza, it would just say "A bishop..."
"The history that I have been taught and that I am teaching, does not coincide with what really happened." This kind of sums up what so called "anti" mormon have claimed all along.
That's what happens when people actually analyze things. You realize that the institution does not matter, it's the individual.
What is so threatening that the church would need to hide or cover up the facts?
Truth is not often found within lds apologetics. The truth will set you free.
I was not excommunicated. I am not filled with "pride". I found that the God I wanted to follow loves so much more deeply and broadly than can be put in a small box where only a few are allowed. Oh yeah, and I'm a lesbian. Hardly a pride issue. A desire to be accepted by your religion/God has nothing to do with being prideful. It has to do with deciding if God is love or if God is a separatist once-human who has nothing better to do than separate family members from one another. For me it has nothing to do with whether or not JS married 40 women. (Although, I am disgusted.) For me it's all about the Love Jesus professed would define us as His disciple. Love this message of Technicolor! Thanks for sharing your message.
I have always asked myself the same question, as this couple did on this video,
Why do you have to pay money in order to obtain the temple recommend? ( Known as TR ) LDS leaders always demand their members whether they are paying their tithe ( this is one of the questions they ask, before they grant the TR ) if the answer is yes, they ask you again the same question, are you sure that................????????? in full knowledge that you are not paying your tithing, and this is because they keep records on how much you pay every month. In my view, tithing, is a commandment that you pay for your faith to your God, regardless whether is a 10 % or more, and that should be a secret between the person and God, This is a wicked way of extracting money from their members, making you feel that you are not obeying the tithing law ending in a refusal of the TR.
In conclusion, the LDS church claims that at the beginning of the creation, Lucifer's plan was rejected, because he wanted to force all of us to obey god's commandments and to take us back to his presence. the celestial kingdom.
Jesus's plan was to give us freedom to do anything we wanted to do,( free agency ) and that everyone is responsible for thier actions. and therefore, his plan was accepted. according to the LDS teachings
I think that the LDS church is doing Lucifer's wishes, by forcing their member to pay their tithing before granting the TR so they can enter to the temples.
This is an old comment, but once you learn the true story about who Lucifer is you find out he is actually a friend of humanity.
@@ASMRyouVEGANyet I'm going to have to give you an educated hard no on that!!
These stories make me feel less lonely as I’m going through my own version of the shelf breaking and I’m currently figuring out for myself the church’s truth claims are false and that they’ve covered up so much of the actual history of Joseph smith and the story of the founding of the church.
I'm no longer LDS so I'm not trying to be contrary here. I understand your concern, but I need to correct this just a little. You don't have to serve a mission to have a Temple recommend. That's just not true. There are SO many things in church history that "are" disturbing, so let's stick to the truth. The truth is disturbing enough.
Faith is liberating, it makes us free. If we feel bound, this is not truth. There is life, love and growth in Christ - it opens us up, it draws people. This is a true testimony.
If anyone wants to know what "it" is that causes people to leave Mormonism - it seems to me there are 2 things: 1) repulsion to the control and oppression of an institution which is fundamentally hypocritical (sadly this can lead people to atheism) and / or 2) being drawn to the true Jesus Christ (joyfully this leads to real life, now and eternally).
God bless! :)
+sh m Watching the video just made me realised why LDS never succeeded in Norway. It is almost impossible to make women into good mormon wife's here.... We probably have the most independent women in the world, with lots of women in politics, leader positions, we have a female prime minister and so forth. So for an average Norwegian lady its unthinkable to become a very submissive, quiet woman that always lets her husband take the lead. Completely unthinkable. :)
+Helen E Mormon women are not expected to be like that or like that for the most part. Most Mormon men I know treat their wives as queens. Some women or even men are naturally more submissive.
Roxality I get the impression that a woman is not seen as complete until she is married? (I talked to some single women in their thirties)
+Helen E Marriage is a big part of our religion and both men/women are believed to be incomplete without their partner, but not pathetic or anything. I'm single and I've never felt incomplete in a bad way. I do want a partner to be with, but I think that's many people, not just LDS. Until that right person comes along though, I travel, I'm working on my degree, I work, and have a full filled life; my husband will only add to my amazing life when he comes and I hope I can add beauty to his life as well.
Thank you for the compliment.! :-)
Your inference is that I assert this nation upholds all the will of God. That is not what was stated. You are wont to put words both in God's mouth & mine, but we steadfastly resist your doing so. Catch that if this nation upheld less of God's will the nation would be in even worse dire straits. That is the main & plain meaning. Always, go for that first, whether the Bible or writing outside the Books of the Bible. Save yourself from much misunderstanding.
I just realised why LDS never grew in Norway. It is almost impossible to make women in to good mormon wife's here.... We probably have the most independent women in the world, with lots of women in politics, leader positions, we have a female prime minister.. and so forth. So for an average Norwegian lady its unthinkable to become a very submissive, quite woman that always lets her husband take the lead. Unthinkable. :)
If you do a little research you will soon find out that many early converts joined the church in Norway and then migrated to the USA. An LDS woman is well educated, very independent, totally loyal to virtue and chastity. An Latter day saint woman is a mother and a daughter of God who has a true knowledge of who she really is and how much God loves and value her. She is an equal partner with her husband if she is married and if not, she is still greatly valued and loved by Christ and our Heavenly Father. God bless women of courage and virtue because our world is a better place because of them. I fear you are mocking goodness and virtue at your own peril!
The Mormons don't get many converts in any Nordic country. I'm not sure why, but religion isn't a strong influence there, many people are agnostic or atheistic. Good for them.
Ricardo Garcia
So who will raise the woman from the dead? Christ or her husband..?
My great grandfather moved here to Utah from Norway when him and his brother were around ten years old. So of course he became a mormon, I'm a mormon ex and sometimes wish my grandfather would have stayed in Norway! But I got to know him pretty well because he didn't die until I was about 10 and he was 89. I still love the man and always did he was a great guy. By the way his last name was sitterud and we named our first grandson Ole after his great great grandfather.
That's so sad. Both men and women must end up so unhappy in Norway. I feel sorry for you.
Burning blessings of Jesus' Beauty in your being and intimate blessings of affection from His Holy Heart...
Oh, the insanity.
Wow Dr you are quite rude and un loving for a Christian! I would just like to say thanks for being I. This interview you two. It is so amazing to see the love you two share together. I wish my awaking bad turned out the sAme with my wife.
My last comment was a bit harsh. I'm just so shocked by how you've gotten from where you were to where you currently are.
I have not seen anybody ask you this, so I will.
What are your current beliefs about the Book of Mormon?
If you only knew how weird this all sounds to someone who has not been indoctrinated it would probably blow your mind.
Well said.
Deeply moving
I don't want to invalidate her feelings, however as a Mormon I've never had an issue with the friends I have of different views and ways of life. I've never had to limit my social life. I still feel open to beauty and love on every level.
Where is this gentleman now? Did he go on to pursue a Doctorate in Sociology? Just wondering....
Don't forget about 1 Cor. 7:6 - "But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment."
God is always, always a he.
Keeping you too busy to ask questions or dwell on your doubts... This is a key strategy the cult-sorry, church-employs.
I'm a very logical person myself. Let's see: Joseph Smith had a third grade education, was from a uneducated family in Palmyra, which even though it was on the Erie Canal, it was not known as a knowledge center. He some how got a book out in sixty-five days, without any real edits to the original text, with many Hebrew literary patterns, syntax, etc. I am his age at the time he translated, I'm a college student, and I can barely write a Digimon Fanfic without rewatching every episode multiple times. and it is taking me FOREVER to write. I can only say he translated by the power of God an ancient text.
+LDSRaichu Incorrect. See the unedited first edition of the Book of Mormon (1830). The book you see now in 2016 is not the same at all as the unedited first edition
+LDSRaichu By the way if the book is translated from the time period the plates are supposedly buried why are there large sections of the Bible (especially Isaiah) as published in Joseph's time directly inserted in the first edition, unedited Book of Mormon? Please support your claims with evidence through investigation. A testimony should not fear investigation.
While it is true that Smith had a very limited FORMAL education, he was by no means uneducated. There is also evidence that he may have had a lot of help from other people in writing it, such as Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon, and referenced/plagiarized several other books. As to the amount of time spent writing the Book of Mormon, well, Joseph Smith CLAIMED that it was done in that short time span, but that is his unverified story. Some people say he may have spent upwards of four years writing it. There have been nearly 4000 edits to the Book of Mormon since it's first publishing.
Roxanne Friedmann yeah, and it required extensive rewrites. Not so with the Book of Mormon.
LDSRaichuguy
The Book of Mormon has been edited and revised so much since 1830 that it's practically a different book (cleaning up Joseph's grammar, paragraph structure, and syntax, changing things like "white and delightsome" and so forth).
In Gen. 21:8-21 is the account of Hagar's departure from Sarah & Abraham. God ordered Abraham to send away Hagar & her son; Abraham obeyed. This was at the time Isaac was weaned. Subsequently Abraham had no relations with Hagar.
That Hagar's son was even born was as the direct result of Abraham's & Sarah's impatience & disobedience in not waiting on God to bring forth His promised Son.
Please, explain why you think bishops & elders in Paul's day were required to have one wife but not the whole church.
TMI trigger warning: self lovin’
I grew up in the church, for context.
I was very young, younger than I can even remember, when I started masturbating, and it wasn’t until I was 12 when someone finally talked to me about it.
Basically, something I had done naturally as a kid suddenly became taboo, and it shattered my world, it became my biggest source of guilt, and I struggled to stop myself doing it right up until I left the church at the age of 20. Ultimately, I left the church because I felt like I would never be good enough, because I couldn’t keep fighting. So my story of leaving is a little different than other stories, I feel. I dunno, maybe not that unique, but a lot of the exmo conversations I see involve a crisis of faith, or a pushback against the church history, or church policy.
For me, all that stuff was gradual and extended over a period of time. I wasn’t violently removed from being a believer in the church, I quietly removed myself, then gradually extricated the church from my life. It wasn’t til years later that I realized, in retrospect, just how messed up a lot of it is/was, because the brainwashing was full and complete, you know, shampoo AND conditioning, you know what I mean?
So I guess you could make the argument that I was one of the stereotypical ex Mormons, in that I did leave the church so I was free to do whatever I wanted. But ultimately I arrived at the same destination as the majority of people we see coming forward to tell their Mormon Stories.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk
sometimes being intelligent is a curse, you have to deal with issues the church took care of for you, you are a very smart couple, intelligence alone is not enough, you have to have the courage to see the myths might have been good for you. It is right in thinking that the truth will set you free, just be prepared that the truth is not always the easy path.
I know them! They were in my old ward! But I left. Brooke was my music teacher in primary. John was in the bishopric. No kidding! Remember me Brooke? I'm Nicholas I was in your primary!
In U.S. & Canada polygamy has never been a culturally normative or legally recognized institution.
LDS eventually ceased the pernicious practice of polygamy because the U.S. government intervened. Many men were sent to jail. Utah was refused statehood unless they complied. Study your church's history.
Why do you think polygamy continues as illegal today?
What of the undivided attention & faithful affection of one man for one wife & children needful for healthy spirituality & emotionality?
Saddens me to see or hear members say HOW COULD THE CHURCH refuse this or that? God surely could not be that cruel?
People forget very very quickly, what God has decreed and is recorded to be pointless and out-dated and especially old!
YOU [ people ] want the things of the world, then go into the world and join their churches...... I remember what Christ said about our journey here after Baptism...>>(New Testament | Matthew 7:13 - 14) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and
narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it....LOOK for faults and behold, there they are, look for what your eternal identity depends on the out-come but the good and righteousness of God and your eyes are closed?
mormons son uhhh....what?
Gen.16:9. God sent Hagar back to Abraham's family for various reasons, which include the fact that God intended to use such circumstances to help each of these three people to learn to confront their problems His way. Abram had to face them. Sarai had to deal with them. Hagar had to live in them. God's purpose is not only to make you happy. He desires for you to be holy. Forcing you to face your problems is one way of actually accomplishing that!
Answer me, forget about the other people, I didn't ask you about the church, I asked you about your teachings, tell me Cindy, Does heavenly Father have a Father?
Being a member or non-member of the church won't change how many people will be in heaven with you. I think most members misunderstand that most people will eventually make it to the highest degrees of heaven.
Music at the beginning please. I know the song, but that version of it please.
JJ Hurtak inspired my focus on Egyptology in 1998. A simple review of the Book of Abraham papyrus art altered by JS identified human looking heads on Egyptian deities especially Anubis the God of the Underworld who guards the gate. Later I heard of Griggs work calling it a funeral text. I was told iJS was inspired and somehow that made it Ok. But it does look really odd. JS basically plagiarized the manuscript and usurped its meaning.
Inspiration enlightens the mind and can be used for both good or bad. It is how you act that reveals your truth. For JS it has revealed a propensity to cover up truth. If he was innocent then he was possessed by a very dark entity that used him and destroyed him! Sandra Tanner explains the Smith family used an intermediary spirit named Abrac of Abracadabra fame as their willing genie in the bottle to aid their magic pursuits. Old world Catholic exorcists call the name of the possessing spirit to remove itself from the body of the possessed. JS was indeed a possessed man.
Super nice people. Those who leave the Church, CAN NOT leave it alone. The need to feel justified is powerful.
Mormons in Utah are so sheltered
!
+bree doxey Do you see that as good or bad? :)
shelter is a division/barrier to other faith. But Jesus Christ mission is to unite us. Religion is evil. Believing in Christ alone is the key to our salvation.
@@HelenEk7 bad since it causes ignorance and people can be easily conned. Thats why utah still has so many scam artists
Very interesting Mormon Story. But it seems to me that they both still possess the "chosen ones" or "holier than thou" attitude that probably led to their apostasy in the first place. They were the "chosen" couple inside the church, and now they are the "chosen" couple that has progressed beyond or risen above the church.
Interesting series, though.
According to the rules of "logical induction" the converse also applies to your argument, but that is actually moot, clearly considering that you come short of interpreting Scripture with Scripture.
The logic of man is not the authority as to that which the Creator has created His creation. Rather, the authority is His expressed will as recorded in His Word, the Bible, that Record by which He means all documents are to be held to the light of & judged.
Be like the Bereans, Acts 17, not Joe!
A fund has been set up to help John McLay, as he transitions into a new place in his life. If you would like to help out, here's the link:
www.youcaring.com/help-a-neighbor/new-place-fund-for-john-mclay/115088
I am going by His Word in the Bible. On the subject of whether or not polygamy is sin, it is silent. All it says is that deacons, bishops (and elders) should only have one wife. You believe that means no one in the church should have more than one wife, but that's not what the word says.
You can certainly believe that it applies to all members of the church as well, but on what basis? Not scripture.
To look at polygamy you need to look at marriage.
In 1 Cor. 7 marriage is addressed always in the context of "wife" & "husband." It does not follow for the singular words to be used, if more than one wife is to be had. If it were acceptable for a man to have more than one wife, the word "wives" would have been used here. The wording of 1 Corinthians 7 absolutely excludes the practice of polygamy.
Based on this also you ought to see why your bishops argument falls flat & is unable to rise. :-)
Let us be glad and rejoice, & give honor to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb is come, & His wife has made herself ready .Revelation 19:7
Marriage is a reflection of Christ's relationship with the church -- one groom (Christ) and one bride (the church).
Not two Christs marrying (two homosexual men).
Not two churches marrying (two lesbian women).
Not Christ & many churches (polygamy).
Marriage is one man & one woman.
Surrender to the Splendor of the Superscendent Son!
(Leave off Joe)
Intellectual, analytic observations alone cannot bring one to the true faith. Why? Because "the natural man conceiveth not the the things of God neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned." Pure intellectual pursuit alone leaves no room for the SPIRIT OF TRUTH. Thus the baby of divine inspiration is here being thrown out with the stinking bath water of Joseph Smiths Book of Mormon.
God instructed that kings have only one wife:
"Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away." Deut. 17:17
This was exactly the way Solomon went. I Kings 11:4
"For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: & his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God."
Without any exception whatsoever the N.T. gloriously describes marriage as one man & one wife! To attempt to refute same is numinous nonsense, sorry setup.
Let's have a counting lesson, shall we. 1 wife + 3 kids = 4 person to provide attention to. Four persons demand more attention than 2 persons.
Any nation that upholds the will of God as revealed in the Bible with specific laws of the land has to do with the Bible.
No woman who is walking in step with the Spirit of God appreciates her man going into another woman, such is the nature & way of & by which her Creator created her, nor is it conducive to the health of children to relate to mothers' plural personalities which are in consequence split in that role.
Why the ridiculous comparison? We're talking about dividing attention between lovers of body and soul, not parents with children.
OK I know it’s a spam comment but people cheat on their spouses because they get caught up in relationships with other people all the time. No it is not OK for some guy to bring their kid over to your house alone to play because that’s where emotional attachments come from this has nothing to do with religion
You either don't know LDS theology (perhaps you're young, or a recent convert?) or you are fudging on the truth. You are speaking truthfully about "heaven." But you are not speaking truthfully about the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. See the church website where it talks of this if you don't know your church's eschatology.
Well it doesn't really matter since it's all a fabrication.
I don't know the percentage. Perhaps someone else can help you with that. I do know that it's not a requirement. I'm am a strong supporter of getting the truth about the church out there for all so see and hear, but there are a lot of rumors that get passed around. That's one of them.
Do you still talk about this subject i am a member with questions and don't know where to get answers? Could you contact me?
Bonnie Rogers. I may be able to help. I've written 4 papers for the Church regarding members questions or concerns. Feel free to reach out to me
According to the Bible neither can Christians. Sorry homes, no disrespect meant in the previous comment (the fault of written script is you can't hear voice inflection) But these peeps in these videos have not only read the Bible, they've scoured it looking for the connections to make the faith fit. When they don't within
Mormonism, they often times turn to the Bible with the same scrutiny and it all starts to fall apart.
This is really funny to see that these members didn't know about the polygamy or the history of the church. Talk about living in a bubble. This church is going to need to change if it wants to continue in the information age.
Patrick P, sadly it's true. I have known about the polygamy in the church for a couple years now. Prior to that, I had no idea. In the church you are taught to avoid anti-Mormon literature. I recently had a conversation with my mother-in-law where she told me that maybe she needed to a little more research. After I thought about her comment, I called her back and said that if she was really serious about doing the research, I could get her the names of the sites I use that are very unbiased so she could read about what really happened without it being sugar coated, but also not completely slamming it. Basically, she told that she's had experiences in her life that tell her it is true and that she'd rather not know. Talk about ignorance is bliss! You know there is more out there and you simply refuse to look at it.
Bishops are mentioned as to set the example for the church to follow!
Because of the hardness of hearts, even as Jesus answered the Pharisees that Moses allowed divorce because of hardness of heart. Jesus said that it was not always so from the beginning, showing that divorce was not God's intention, just as polygamy never was God's will. cf. Mat. 19 Where there was polygamy there was strife & sorrow. God allows abortion, but does that make abortion right? God gave Adam one wife, not more.
Which Jesus Cindy? The Jesus who had 3 wives and children according to Mormonism?
So six months later John asks Brooke for a divorce...?
SO WHAT?!! Does that invalidate anything that was said?
Sarah was a wife; Hagar was her maidservant, never married to Abraham, therefore a concubine. God did/does allow some men to have several wives. He also allows children to be molested and murdered and other horrific actions to be taken by people whom He creates and loves. Oh, and tell me again how a man could provide just as much attention, if not more so, to two wives as opposed to one. While he is providing attention to one of the wives, the other's tender heart is breaking. Jacob 2:35
@cindybin2001 Why is it you don't comment constructively and critically about the content of the video. I guess its it because you didn't watch it?
Simply, really. There are but three verses that mention anything about polygamy in the new testament. One is in the context of "overseers", one of "deacons" and the last of "bishops" (as well as "elders" as you understand it).
Based on the rules of logical induction, it is invalid to make any conclusions about polygamy for any other groups. Simply put, if something is true for A, it does not mean that it is true for B. It could be, but you can not CONCLUDE that it is definitely true for B.
It's quite interesting how similar the list of troubling topics is for apostates.
🌼🌼🌼
seems like Joseph Smith was a 19th century Charlie Manson without the acid
True of course.
That is incorrect. Elders, as well as bishops, are instructed to be the husband of one wife. See Titus 1:5-6
Explain why you think bishops & elders would be required to have one wife but not the whole church.
And why are elders in the Mormon churches called elders, being merely lads, but real elders, the elders in the one & only true church of Paul's day & ours are actual men, men of maturity, spiritual experience & learning, men with spiritual acuity... if not for cult seduction & flattery?
What is CES. A non Mormon asks?
LDS Church Education System
If I believed the bible and there was never an Israel in real history,then I would have a silly,illogical faith.Most LDS stay because they "prayed about it"&"felt something."Is there evil in the world and have you ever prayed about something and it turned out that what you prayed and felt was wrong?I have.Feelings and the devil can fool all of us.Facts matter,and if the BOM was true,there should be huge archeological proofs.There just aren't-so its not true no matter what feelings you "felt."
@cindybin2001 - Your sarcasm isn't really a defence. Your profile picture has you holding a young child. Examine your conscience as to whether you really want to bring up your children in a church with such horrendous foundations.
I don't presume that since it's plausible, it's his will. The scriptures demonstrate several sanctioned polygamous relationships themselves! If you simply refuse to recognize that patriarchs were polygamyst, then I can do nothing for you.
Some of the Old Testament prophets were polygamists but God never commanded it. And it never turned out well. In the beginning God made one male and one female. The New Testament says that everyone should have one spouse. Also that he who marries does well, but he who does not marry does even better, for he can serve the Lord without distraction.
Ethan smith no relationship he wrote a book called
A VIEW OF THE HEBREWS 1828.