The irony about the Tiger is when Germans tried their second Ardennes push (aka The Battle of the Bulge) the Tiger did not have as easy a time getting through that country as the Pz II had in 1940. The need to select the strongest bridges led to bottlenecks, U-turns and eventual defeat that was partly down to the weight of a full turret tank carrying an 88mm, the tank they wished they had in 1940.
On Hell Let Loose the Panzer II and M3 Stuart is God on forest maps like Hurtgen. You can slide into all sorts of nasty little spots Panzer IVs and M4s can't get into
Their are tanks that are great for offensiv tasks, and their are tanks for defensiv tasks. And at least since 1942, the german Wehrmacht was no longer in the position to do much offensiv tasks but focused in defensiv tasks. That´s why i think the Sherman was so great - no "one-trick-pony", more an affordable "swiss-army-knife"
The German army actually had a well thought out tactical doctrine for the Tiger. It was to be kept in reserve and concentrated to support attacks. Once the attack was over they would be withdrawn and the crews given time to do maintenance. Unfortunately for the Germans, the enemy didn't cooperate, the war turned into a defensive slog, the Tiger was rushed into production and combat and was eventually used as a fire brigade, rushing from crisis to crisis. Let's not also forget that Germany's economy was a mess, and was supporting the war based on their own limited resources and those they could steal from occupied territories. Even without allied bombing, they never had the resources, money, fuel, time, or manpower to produce, crew, and operate enough of these tanks to make a difference.
During Kursk they were used at the forward tip of the 'panzerkeil' in an effort to combat the Soviet doctrine of a pakfront that they had previously encountered, and that German army intelligence had identified were massed in the Kursk salient. Also read somewhere that German industry had been geared to total war too late, for example they still had factories producing baby prams at the outbreak of hostilities. So many other factors from Gorings use of the Luftwaffe in the battle of Britain, Mussolini's attempted invasion of Greece led to Germany delaying Barbarossa to complete the side show losing valuable campaigning weather, Hitler's meddling in OKH affairs, the worse winter in supposedly 100yrs and many many other factors. But the stoic defense of the average Soviet peasant was a huge contributing factor to Germany's defeat as well as inventions far ahead of their time made by the 'untermensh', Stalin himself and the purges of the red army was another huge factor in their massive initial losses. Just too much to mention in a try to keep it simple comment. Needs volumes to cover, but they came within an ace of achieving their goals except for what could be described as a 'higher intervention'
@@lyricallyunwaxable1234 The claim that the German industry has been comprehensively dismissed by Tooze. The NS economy had been very successful at achieving full employment (and there was a massive labor shortage in Germany. Factories couldn't go on night shifts because there wasn't any labor to man them. Women couldn't be used in the factories because with the men in factories and the military they operated the farms. Germany still had managed, with effort and the haber bosch process to grow 80% to 85% of its food compared to Britain's 45%-50%. This meant a high proportion of Germany's woman power was devoted to food production. Britain of course obtained much from the USA in the form of lend lease and presumably still exported goods to pay for food imports. -The big upswing in German Armaments production from 1942 was not a result of Speers armaments miracle but carefull planing and investment in automation and mass production techniques that started to pay of. The production of Ju 88 bombers went from cost plus incentive to competitive tendering. Production batches went from dozens and hundreds to thousands. -Speer makes a fuss over cutting production of refrigerators (and prams) but I doubt that achieved anything much apart from more food spoilage and mothers spending more time carrying babies and shopping rather than working. -Germany was behind the US in mass production, no doubt so the Germans took a little longer to work it out. Tanks were produced by heavy machinery makers with little experience in mass production instead of Opel and Ford which were so new they were not trusted except for trucks of 2.5-3 tons or so.
The idea of a combustion engine powering a generator powering the wheels electrically works well in trains and has done so for decades. This particular concept was great, even if not for a battle tank.
Careful: 99% of hybrid cars on modern streets use their engines to power the wheels mechanically and therefore need a gearbox for transmission. The generator only generates electric energy while braking. Porsche instead did not use this kind of "range extension" an energy recycling. His tank engine permanently powered the generator instead of any gearbox. And there is the genius: no mechanical gearbox needed! For example the T34 meanwhile was prone to gearbox failures even with far less engine power.
The US T23 tank, a competitor with the M26 Pershing was also to have a GE electrodynamic drive. The problem with the electrodymamic drive in the Porche tank wasn't the ward-leonard system of dc generators and motors but the petrol engine. It takes many years to get an engine in service (6 years for an aero engine and not much less for a tank engine) Porche couldn't realistically get is flat 12 engine functioning in time to start production, there was simply no hope so they switched to a pair of Maybach HL120 engines as used in the Panzer III and Panzer IV. These just could be fitted in the planed area and ended up between the casement and driver. A DC motor or generator weighs about 350kg per 100kW so you would need 700kg (a 350kg DC generator and a 350kg DC motor) to transmit 100kw. For a 700hp/400kW engine that would mean 2.8 tons. (Maybe a bit more with switch gear, and conservative ratings). The system works by controlling the current through the field winding of the generator to control speed likely via rheostat. The field of the DC motors would allow a increase in torque at low speed. Thus providing both steering and transmission. It would save a pinion gear, two steering differentials, clutches, shafts etc.
@@grafgeo9194 IIRC what you're describing is Parallel or Series-Parallel Hybrids, yes they are rarer, but Series Hybrids like Trains and Tiger P do exist in some vehicles. Nissan's (Japan only) hybrids are Series only, and Honda's newer hybrids are Series when below 50 mph.
With regard to the Rammtiger photograph, it's definitely a fake. It's a picture of a model which was composited into a old photograph using traditional photomanipulation techniques. I know this because I happen to know the guy who built the model and created the picture for a modelling magazine back in the 90s - he was a regular customer at a specialist model shop I worked in a couple of years ago. The image was never intended to fool anyone and when it was originally published it was clearly stated to be a a bit of photo-trickery. However, the image has found it's way onto the internet without it's original disclaimer causing people to claim it as original.
Actually, I've got the story slightly wrong. The picture was first published in MAFVA's "Tankette" magazine and the Editor didn't initially state it was a fake, putting that fact in a subsequent issue. This was done against the model makers wishes as the picture was only created for a bit of fun. Also, I think the picture was posted on the 2000's rather than the 90s, but I haven't been able to pin down the specific issue because I'm not a subscriber.
It makes so much sense to have it come from that 1980s-90s time period. Its when *The Greatest Generation* moniker was finally gaining pop culture traction; as they became the majority of the (politically over-represented) +65yr old voting block. Their self-congratulatory name was the complete opposite of the original *Scared Rabbit Generation* name given to them by their Parents & Grandparents’ generations. { Scared Rabbits, too afraid to venture out of their free homes or leave the comforts of socialist colleges; and demanding that “free citizens” should make room for Black people & Women in the workforce. • These were the popular tropes WW2 Correspondent, and post-war journalist & cartoonist, *Bill Maudlin* railed against in many of his editorials in magazines & newspapers in the 1946-1958 era }
It's not a hybrid because it only has a single drivetrain. It's correctly classified as Petrol-Electric since it didn't have the ability to run off batteries.
Kelly's Hero's left me with the impression that this was what the OG Tiger looked like. Been in love with the Tiger (P) ever since. Truly, a beautiful tank.
It's surprising to find a new-ish military channel that isn't one of those many thousands of text-to-speech channels that rips content from articles, playing it over relevant video on loop. Good stuff!
I remember i unlocked this tiger in world of tanks not knowing how good it was. I then bought it in war thunder. And then i realized that there are two 100mm plates in the front giving it 200mm in the front. Then learned abouth the two engines and well, the more i learned, the more i fell in love with it. Kind of like meeting someone special.
Fun fact: as one would expect, there were a lot of Shermans left over after WW2, rendered obsolete by newer designs. Many were de-militarized and sold as surplus. A number were used for demolition. Drive a Sherman through a small or medium brick or frame structure a dozen times and your work was mostly done. I vaguely remember a Popular Mechanics article on this, late 1950s/early 1960s. (“Old Guard” = old)
M4 medium tanks could and were upgraded with improved guns, powerpacks, fire control, and communication systems. The IDF used them with great results up through the Yom Kippur War. M4s were re-purposed into SPGs, CEVs, ARVs, Bridging vehicles, Command vehicles, and even armored ambulances!
Its amazing to see the true story of this tiger see the light of day. I've been waiting for this video for a while and contrary to the pfp, I'm not a die hard German tank enjoyer rather the Porsche Tiger has always been an interest to me. Thanks for making a in depth and great video on this tank forgotten by most books out there!
Highly recommend picking up a copy or finding an online version of the book by Jentz and Doyle if you haven't already. Way more info then I could fit into a video
Probably because the Henschel Tiger had plenty of transmission problems of its own (especially early production examples), and the Porsche Tiger had an exotic transmission that was part of the reason it was rejected. Thus, widespread assumptions that the Porsche Tiger *must* have had even worse problems specifically with transmission failures (when in reality, it was just because Germany didn't have enough copper to go around, and diesel *electric* submarines without copper wires were impossible while tank transmissions that didn't need wires were very possible). How the meme progressed to Porsche Tiger transmissions *catching fire* on the other hand, I have no idea.
14:52 interestingly, you can here see the Panzer V/IV (if WoTs name is to be believed) which, if I recall correctly, was also a Command tank with the turret unable to move
This is one of my three favorite tanks, I like the history about it, it is so fascinating. The Tiger (P) is the tank that I got really good at in World Of Tanks Blitz. For the fate of the command tank, I like to think it disappeared, vanished without a trace, only to be found someday in the future by a lucky individual.
You can't help but wonder where did that Command Variant go during that time before it was highly scrapped at the end of war. No photos of its demise apart from its last photo before battle..
We'll presumably never know, but the most likely outcomes are either that it was knocked out by Soviet guns or it was abandoned due to a breakdown. If it's the latter, then it was likely torched to prevent it from being captured intact, since that was standard practice at the time. Either way, its remains would've eventually ended up being scrapped by the Soviets. While they did preserve some captured tanks at Kubinka, a burnt-out husk wouldn't have any fate other than the scrapyard.
@@RedXlV It's also possible that it was ditched in one of the bogs, like some other armored vehicles, to prevent capture. At least that is what I hope.
Really cool. Just yesterday I was reading on the VK 30.01 Porsche and the Maus. It seemed almost wierd to me that the Maus transmission was seen as very smooth running and easy to drive, also that the VK managed very good manueverabilty and I have not yet verified but it might be true that the unloaded hull managed 60kmh. Also the tanks should be capable of maximum speed on reverse which might have been seen as a mayor tactical advantage. Unfortunately Porsches V10 engines were ridiculously ineficient for some reason and the tank had terrible fuel consumption. Had Porsche developed his theoretical diesel engine or borrowed something else, the tank might have been even more interesting.
There were allied reports n the electrodynamic dirve, of the top of my head it weighed about 6 tons for Maus. I believe one technique for crossing a river was to have one maus power the drive of another by cable and the Maus would simply cross under water. The Germans had already developed the remarkable tauchpanzer a Panzer III with a long air hose and a gyroscopic navigation system to storm the British beaches.
I think that it was just ahead of its time with its electric drive. I think it would be awesome to know what happened to Tiger P 003 and what became of it. Also liked the picture that had the Pzkpfw V/IV (Aufkl. Panzer Panther) at 14:45
Goddddd I just love Tiger (P) more than Tiger (H) its just so.. Amazing to make it simple even with its flaws I still love it and thank you Cone of Arc to talk about it finally thank you and have a good day :))
In the film 'White Tiger' the filmmakers mocked up (I believe) a T-34 to look like a Tiger. At first I found the turret positioning to be a bit jarring (the turret being at the front rather than the middle of the tank), but in my mind, I turned it into a Tiger (P) and my vexed nature settled down! I rewatched a post by Mark Felton afterwards that a couple of these vehicles actually served on the Eastern Front. Thanks for the information on this vehicles development. 👍
for white tiger theyactually had 1 tiger 1 made... from scratch everything correct. but the tank would have (and did) take like a year to make and production started earlier then that so they mocked up a IS tank for white tiger
To be fair that tank did existed few in numbers near end of ww2 because its more like a stop gap tank because Germany is already low on resources so already existing panzer 4 turret on Panther hull is more efficient than creating new Panther turret because they already have lot of panzer 4s so it's easier to modify existing turret than making one from scratch..when you are low everything.
A rather enlightening video i was always taught that the tiger(p) set its self alight during the initial trials just shows that there's still a fair bit to learn about the history of old armoured vehicles specially limited production/prototype vehicles. I wonder if it's stuck in some bog in Russia just waiting to be dug up and restored.... one can dream
FINALLY someone mentions the Command Tank being refitted with Maybach Engines! do we know specifically what engines they were? if i had to guess it was either the HL210, or the Smaller Maybach from the late Panzer IVs, the HL120, considering the engines fitted to the Porsche originally were V10s.
14:48 U should make a video about modified Panther hulls, like that in the picture of a Panther with the Panzer 4 turret at the back of the Porsche Tiger
One interesting thing to note is that there is still a concrete turret from the VK 45.01P in germany according to Michael Fröhlich`s book on the vehicle
Hey i know where that is at 1:17, its at the american heritage museum in Massachusetts, the tank in the background is a sherman, and the parts are for it!
Did you know that Tiger 131 not only has a turret orginally made for the tiger P, but to get it to run again long after the war ended, it was given the engine of a first production tiger 2 with a Krupp turret that still exists today in a museum, but is immobile by itself.
That's what I said, I was like what the hell is that thing?! It didn't take long to identify it's a Panzer IV turret and Panther hull but, where did it come from and why is it with a Porsche Tiger?
@@adamg7984 It was either an artillery spotter or a command tank. The original turret was most likely destroyed, so the workshop put in a Panzer 4 turret, but the turret itself was not working and was rather installed to make the tank look "armed". But I could be wrong, because I read about it quite a long time ago
@@b0brik976 Thanks, friend! That's interesting stuff and I could see either reason making sense! It just needs to look armed to scare off enemy soldiers if it's just their for spotting or directing/commanding.
I think one other factor that made the Henschel to be chosen was the hull seems easier to produce. Most of the plates that make it are squarish and straight, almost blocky overall, while the Porsche Tiger has more plates in comparison and it has different angles on several of them, which in production just adds unnecessary complexity.
What has always puzzled me is that although the Vk4501 P and the Henschel Tiger 1 have the same turret, both differ in War Thunder in one small detail. On the VK4501 P, the turret MG protrudes a bit from the turret, but not on the Tiger 1. So far I have not been able to find a hint on any photo whether this is true or not. So I don't know if Gaijin made a mistake with the models or not? ^^ Anyway, great video and thanks for your work!
I absolutely hated grinding through all the Tigers for World of Tanks with the exception of Tiger 2 German Tier 8 and Tiger 131 Japanese Tier 6 premium. I appreciate your videos with all the historical discussions grounding the reasonings of their design and development, but in-game, stats and performance are, shall we say, "character building"
Tiger 131 is the German Tiger I premium, the Japanese one is Heavy Tank No. VI They're pretty much identical, VI has a slightly lower radio range than 131 and is a tiny fraction heavier, and the shell costs and velocities are also slightly different.
The Porche Tiger will always be an interesting design, especially with its choice of electronic transmission and other components like the bogey suspension. It makes one wonder how the poor transmission rumor came to be. Not to mention the question of "What if Porche was selected over Henshel in the Tiger contest?" But let's not forget its greatest modification added to it. The turbo boost that allowed it to rocket forward at great speed.
Great video... A similar story is the DB Panther Design...( Great idea for a topic hint hint ) it almost happened and it might have produced a lighter Panther which could have been better . People focus on the first "T34 copy" and overlook the later rival design. Read " Professor Porsche's Wars " and you'll see he was building successful electric / gas powered vehicles before WW1. The idea was sound but copper was an issue during the war . I have read French "volunteer" workers calmed they would sabotage panther transmissions.. I think it is possible that many of the duds and breakdowns suffered by the Nazis could have been the results of forced labor sabotage . Porsche was not just a guy with Mega designs.... he was an engineer who wanted to built what the customer wanted... He saw it as his duty and a challenge. It is interesting to note that even the critic Guderian ( when referring to the mobil pillbox use of the Maus) said "With100 Panzers like the Maus, I'll hold the Eastern front." Hitler 1942 thought Tank armor and guns would get so big that the only way to get a head of it was to build a massive tank... Some of these "crazy" ideas aren't quite as crazy as we might think when we look closer. .... and their critics may be very misinformed . Thanks.. Oh... check out the 2nd tank in the background at 14:47 ... it looks kinda like a Panzer IV turret on a Panther kind of hull.... what is that? An illusion?
No. The 653 had three unique vehicles. Well, actually six. The Tiger I(P) and the three Tiger I (P) recovery vehicles. There was also a Panther tank recovery vehicle with the Panzer IV turret mounted, and at least one T34 with the German Quad 20mm Flak mount replacing the turret.
I recall from other book sources that tiger p 003 command tank actually served for a few month until it was destroyed in July 44 sometime during bagration, it had over 40 to 50 tank kills
It served yes, but the claim that it had a certain amoutn of kills is just a nonsense claim made by tat fraud Mark Felton, though his video on the TigerP has a lot of mistakes in it.
Heya Cone! This is my first ever RUclips comment and I do it with a simple ask and/or suggestion. A while ago, I started doing twitter threads in the vain of your videos, so one of the threads was on the Panther tank. When I did a few segments on the captured Panthers, I couldn’t find anything on the French Panthers and could only find a few pictures of some Polish Panthers, one of which I have a model of! So my ask/suggestion is if you could tell the stories of Pudel, Fennick and their French and Russian cousins. I simply posted here because I LOVE the Porsche Tiger, unironically. Keep up the good work, otherwise.
At 14:48 there's a photo used with the Porsche Tiger sitting on a train with what appears to be a Panther hull with a Panzer IV turret on it. I'm not sure whether it's a photographic illusion or I'm not seeing something right. But I haven't seen that before. Also really enjoyed the video and all of your content.
@@wyverncoch4430 After I had reassured myself it looked like a Panzer IV gun mantle I did the same thing before I commented. I'm just glad I'm not the only one that thought it looked like that.
@@rizkidary837 i think to counter the weak front plate for it's BR people should play it hull down with it speed it could go somewhere like a hulldown position
The porsche tiger's biggest issue was its cooling, which due to the engine compartment being relatively cramped meant that the engines didn't have adequate cooling. This lead to them overheating when full power was used from them, when climbing hills for example.
Shortages of rare elements caused at least some of the problems in final drives of German tanks. Not only did the drives themselves have to be made from inferior steels, but the machine tools used to make them also had to use inferior cutting edges. This meant that the drives had to use a simpler type of gear that was even less resistant to breaking.
The rush to always heavier designs was an error that led to an even earlier defeat. The gasoline shortage alone should have been reason enough to oft for smaller and lighter tanks that can be faster produced. While the Panzer IV could be produced in high numbers, the Tigers could not.
@ConeOfArc hmm, I had heard that in the new laser pig video, he claims it was a modified sla.16. Thanks for informing me, I'm gonna so some more research
For me the tiger p is my favorite German tank in WW2, and i always get my older brother annoyed but called it the superior tiger tank. I just like the look of turret moved more forward then the Henschel design ,just something about the tiger p makes me happy
On a related Girls und Panzer fun fact tangent, though the tank is usually just referred to as a Porsche Tiger, it's called VK 45.01 (P) at least once, by a Chi-Ha-Tan member (Hosomi) in the second _das Finale_ episode. :)
The design was definitely ahead of it's time and although combustion-driven electric vehicles have been in service; buses and city transit for example, none of them faced the same power to weight stipulations found in tank design
If you read the comment, you'll note that the use of electric transmissions prior to the Tiger P, but that the use has been used most successfully outside of combat vehicles. The St Chamond tank weighed in at 23 tons, and was described as underpowered. Busses and trucks that used electric transmissions were considerably lighter than even that while using the same engines and transmissions. Electric transmissions in tanks suffered due to research and development constraints. The Tiger P arguably being one of the more successful examples, but still considered a failure by most
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Real
Corndog
epic
Michael fröhlich has a good book about this subject, I almost finished reading it
I
The irony about the Tiger is when Germans tried their second Ardennes push (aka The Battle of the Bulge) the Tiger did not have as easy a time getting through that country as the Pz II had in 1940. The need to select the strongest bridges led to bottlenecks, U-turns and eventual defeat that was partly down to the weight of a full turret tank carrying an 88mm, the tank they wished they had in 1940.
Panzer II reigns supreme as the best German tank design of the war.
On Hell Let Loose the Panzer II and M3 Stuart is God on forest maps like Hurtgen. You can slide into all sorts of nasty little spots Panzer IVs and M4s can't get into
the panzer II was great but the pz I was godly thankfully they didnt max out production on them or we would have all been doomed
Their are tanks that are great for offensiv tasks, and their are tanks for defensiv tasks. And at least since 1942, the german Wehrmacht was no longer in the position to do much offensiv tasks but focused in defensiv tasks. That´s why i think the Sherman was so great - no "one-trick-pony", more an affordable "swiss-army-knife"
@@flame1998
To an infatryman the Panzer I and Panzer II was terrifying -The Chieftain
Never ask a woman's age
A man's salary
The things Porsche invented between 1933 to 1945
Fitting username to a fitting quote
Verstanden, Herr Göring.
Boys want a Prius, real men want a Tiger(P)
The Volkswagen Beatle 🤓
@@johnnymigouel7228 They weren't the same company until the 70s or 80s
The German army actually had a well thought out tactical doctrine for the Tiger. It was to be kept in reserve and concentrated to support attacks. Once the attack was over they would be withdrawn and the crews given time to do maintenance. Unfortunately for the Germans, the enemy didn't cooperate, the war turned into a defensive slog, the Tiger was rushed into production and combat and was eventually used as a fire brigade, rushing from crisis to crisis. Let's not also forget that Germany's economy was a mess, and was supporting the war based on their own limited resources and those they could steal from occupied territories. Even without allied bombing, they never had the resources, money, fuel, time, or manpower to produce, crew, and operate enough of these tanks to make a difference.
🤓
A+
Try again
During Kursk they were used at the forward tip of the 'panzerkeil' in an effort to combat the Soviet doctrine of a pakfront that they had previously encountered, and that German army intelligence had identified were massed in the Kursk salient. Also read somewhere that German industry had been geared to total war too late, for example they still had factories producing baby prams at the outbreak of hostilities. So many other factors from Gorings use of the Luftwaffe in the battle of Britain, Mussolini's attempted invasion of Greece led to Germany delaying Barbarossa to complete the side show losing valuable campaigning weather, Hitler's meddling in OKH affairs, the worse winter in supposedly 100yrs and many many other factors. But the stoic defense of the average Soviet peasant was a huge contributing factor to Germany's defeat as well as inventions far ahead of their time made by the 'untermensh', Stalin himself and the purges of the red army was another huge factor in their massive initial losses. Just too much to mention in a try to keep it simple comment. Needs volumes to cover, but they came within an ace of achieving their goals except for what could be described as a 'higher intervention'
@@lyricallyunwaxable1234 The claim that the German industry has been comprehensively dismissed by Tooze. The NS economy had been very successful at achieving full employment (and there was a massive labor shortage in Germany. Factories couldn't go on night shifts because there wasn't any labor to man them. Women couldn't be used in the factories because with the men in factories and the military they operated the farms. Germany still had managed, with effort and the haber bosch process to grow 80% to 85% of its food compared to Britain's 45%-50%. This meant a high proportion of Germany's woman power was devoted to food production. Britain of course obtained much from the USA in the form of lend lease and presumably still exported goods to pay for food imports.
-The big upswing in German Armaments production from 1942 was not a result of Speers armaments miracle but carefull planing and investment in automation and mass production techniques that started to pay of. The production of Ju 88 bombers went from cost plus incentive to competitive tendering. Production batches went from dozens and hundreds to thousands.
-Speer makes a fuss over cutting production of refrigerators (and prams) but I doubt that achieved anything much apart from more food spoilage and mothers spending more time carrying babies and shopping rather than working.
-Germany was behind the US in mass production, no doubt so the Germans took a little longer to work it out. Tanks were produced by heavy machinery makers with little experience in mass production instead of Opel and Ford which were so new they were not trusted except for trucks of 2.5-3 tons or so.
The idea of a combustion engine powering a generator powering the wheels electrically works well in trains and has done so for decades. This particular concept was great, even if not for a battle tank.
But they were diesels.Porsche was gas,a whole different can of worms.
Most hybrid cars use gas nowadays, I don’t think there would be that much of a difference as long as there’s proper cooling.
Careful: 99% of hybrid cars on modern streets use their engines to power the wheels mechanically and therefore need a gearbox for transmission. The generator only generates electric energy while braking. Porsche instead did not use this kind of "range extension" an energy recycling. His tank engine permanently powered the generator instead of any gearbox. And there is the genius: no mechanical gearbox needed! For example the T34 meanwhile was prone to gearbox failures even with far less engine power.
The US T23 tank, a competitor with the M26 Pershing was also to have a GE electrodynamic drive. The problem with the electrodymamic drive in the Porche tank wasn't the ward-leonard system of dc generators and motors but the petrol engine. It takes many years to get an engine in service (6 years for an aero engine and not much less for a tank engine) Porche couldn't realistically get is flat 12 engine functioning in time to start production, there was simply no hope so they switched to a pair of Maybach HL120 engines as used in the Panzer III and Panzer IV. These just could be fitted in the planed area and ended up between the casement and driver. A DC motor or generator weighs about 350kg per 100kW so you would need 700kg (a 350kg DC generator and a 350kg DC motor) to transmit 100kw. For a 700hp/400kW engine that would mean 2.8 tons. (Maybe a bit more with switch gear, and conservative ratings). The system works by controlling the current through the field winding of the generator to control speed likely via rheostat. The field of the DC motors would allow a increase in torque at low speed. Thus providing both steering and transmission. It would save a pinion gear, two steering differentials, clutches, shafts etc.
@@grafgeo9194 IIRC what you're describing is Parallel or Series-Parallel Hybrids, yes they are rarer, but Series Hybrids like Trains and Tiger P do exist in some vehicles. Nissan's (Japan only) hybrids are Series only, and Honda's newer hybrids are Series when below 50 mph.
With regard to the Rammtiger photograph, it's definitely a fake. It's a picture of a model which was composited into a old photograph using traditional photomanipulation techniques. I know this because I happen to know the guy who built the model and created the picture for a modelling magazine back in the 90s - he was a regular customer at a specialist model shop I worked in a couple of years ago. The image was never intended to fool anyone and when it was originally published it was clearly stated to be a a bit of photo-trickery. However, the image has found it's way onto the internet without it's original disclaimer causing people to claim it as original.
Actually, I've got the story slightly wrong. The picture was first published in MAFVA's "Tankette" magazine and the Editor didn't initially state it was a fake, putting that fact in a subsequent issue. This was done against the model makers wishes as the picture was only created for a bit of fun.
Also, I think the picture was posted on the 2000's rather than the 90s, but I haven't been able to pin down the specific issue because I'm not a subscriber.
What does the real deal look like
It makes so much sense to have it come from that 1980s-90s time period. Its when *The Greatest Generation* moniker was finally gaining pop culture traction; as they became the majority of the (politically over-represented) +65yr old voting block. Their self-congratulatory name was the complete opposite of the original *Scared Rabbit Generation* name given to them by their Parents & Grandparents’ generations.
{ Scared Rabbits, too afraid to venture out of their free homes or leave the comforts of socialist colleges; and demanding that “free citizens” should make room for Black people & Women in the workforce. • These were the popular tropes WW2 Correspondent, and post-war journalist & cartoonist, *Bill Maudlin* railed against in many of his editorials in magazines & newspapers in the 1946-1958 era }
@@GoatPopsicle What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Why don't you find someplace else to rant at clouds...
Ahh....I've been waiting for this tank. Finally, the Hybrid-Tiger is here!
le hybrid tiger has arrived
Tigryd
It's not a hybrid because it only has a single drivetrain. It's correctly classified as Petrol-Electric since it didn't have the ability to run off batteries.
@@samoldfield5220 *puts holder for aa's on tiger*
@@Barten0071 Don't be silly you'd need too many, probably SS type --- they could do anything ---- lol
The Henschel Tiger looks so iconic, but the Porsche Tiger just looks so clean 👌
the drip of an automobile company
it doesn't
Kelly's Hero's left me with the impression that this was what the OG Tiger looked like. Been in love with the Tiger (P) ever since. Truly, a beautiful tank.
It's surprising to find a new-ish military channel that isn't one of those many thousands of text-to-speech channels that rips content from articles, playing it over relevant video on loop. Good stuff!
I remember i unlocked this tiger in world of tanks not knowing how good it was. I then bought it in war thunder. And then i realized that there are two 100mm plates in the front giving it 200mm in the front. Then learned abouth the two engines and well, the more i learned, the more i fell in love with it. Kind of like meeting someone special.
I do like the thorough testing around sponsorship, as well as experimenting on friends and family
Fun fact: as one would expect, there were a lot of Shermans left over after WW2, rendered obsolete by newer designs. Many were de-militarized and sold as surplus. A number were used for demolition. Drive a Sherman through a small or medium brick or frame structure a dozen times and your work was mostly done.
I vaguely remember a Popular Mechanics article on this, late 1950s/early 1960s. (“Old Guard” = old)
M4 medium tanks could and were upgraded with improved guns, powerpacks, fire control, and communication systems. The IDF used them with great results up through the Yom Kippur War. M4s were re-purposed into SPGs, CEVs, ARVs, Bridging vehicles, Command vehicles, and even armored ambulances!
Is funny how heavier tanks like the Tiger II were more of a hindrance than an advantage in the battle of the bulge
The Germans in the Ardennes had the same problem as the Americans had in the Hurtgen forest.
See AceDestroyer's vids on that battle.
Heavy tanks in mountainous areas with forests and snow. Don’t work so well.
So sad we don't have even one original surviving Tiger P. What an incredible piece this would have been for a museum...
Danke! Good video.
Its amazing to see the true story of this tiger see the light of day. I've been waiting for this video for a while and contrary to the pfp, I'm not a die hard German tank enjoyer rather the Porsche Tiger has always been an interest to me. Thanks for making a in depth and great video on this tank forgotten by most books out there!
Highly recommend picking up a copy or finding an online version of the book by Jentz and Doyle if you haven't already. Way more info then I could fit into a video
Very interesting. It does raise the question how the Tiger P had the reputation of having an unreliable transmission.
Henschel propaganda
might be that gup clip shown in the video
@@mrducky179 Nah it predates GuP. I remember people discussing it even back during the WoT Alpha test
Probably because the Henschel Tiger had plenty of transmission problems of its own (especially early production examples), and the Porsche Tiger had an exotic transmission that was part of the reason it was rejected. Thus, widespread assumptions that the Porsche Tiger *must* have had even worse problems specifically with transmission failures (when in reality, it was just because Germany didn't have enough copper to go around, and diesel *electric* submarines without copper wires were impossible while tank transmissions that didn't need wires were very possible). How the meme progressed to Porsche Tiger transmissions *catching fire* on the other hand, I have no idea.
i believe it stems from all the fires and such the ferdinand/elefants had at kursk
14:52 interestingly, you can here see the Panzer V/IV (if WoTs name is to be believed) which, if I recall correctly, was also a Command tank with the turret unable to move
This is one of my three favorite tanks, I like the history about it, it is so fascinating. The Tiger (P) is the tank that I got really good at in World Of Tanks Blitz. For the fate of the command tank, I like to think it disappeared, vanished without a trace, only to be found someday in the future by a lucky individual.
On the off chance it fell into a deep enough swamp/bog, that could theoretically happen, given how well the lack of oxygen preserves things.
You can't help but wonder where did that Command Variant go during that time before it was highly scrapped at the end of war.
No photos of its demise apart from its last photo before battle..
Sounds like the perfect prompt for a History Channel "documentary" where they say it was actually a Nazi ufo or something lol
We'll presumably never know, but the most likely outcomes are either that it was knocked out by Soviet guns or it was abandoned due to a breakdown. If it's the latter, then it was likely torched to prevent it from being captured intact, since that was standard practice at the time. Either way, its remains would've eventually ended up being scrapped by the Soviets. While they did preserve some captured tanks at Kubinka, a burnt-out husk wouldn't have any fate other than the scrapyard.
@@RedXlV It's also possible that it was ditched in one of the bogs, like some other armored vehicles, to prevent capture. At least that is what I hope.
@@thetrueinferno7993 That would be great if it got found in a bog. Unlikely be theoretically possible.
Really cool. Just yesterday I was reading on the VK 30.01 Porsche and the Maus. It seemed almost wierd to me that the Maus transmission was seen as very smooth running and easy to drive, also that the VK managed very good manueverabilty and I have not yet verified but it might be true that the unloaded hull managed 60kmh.
Also the tanks should be capable of maximum speed on reverse which might have been seen as a mayor tactical advantage.
Unfortunately Porsches V10 engines were ridiculously ineficient for some reason and the tank had terrible fuel consumption.
Had Porsche developed his theoretical diesel engine or borrowed something else, the tank might have been even more interesting.
There were allied reports n the electrodynamic dirve, of the top of my head it weighed about 6 tons for Maus. I believe one technique for crossing a river was to have one maus power the drive of another by cable and the Maus would simply cross under water. The Germans had already developed the remarkable tauchpanzer a Panzer III with a long air hose and a gyroscopic navigation system to storm the British beaches.
I think that it was just ahead of its time with its electric drive. I think it would be awesome to know what happened to Tiger P 003 and what became of it.
Also liked the picture that had the Pzkpfw V/IV (Aufkl. Panzer Panther) at 14:45
Goddddd I just love Tiger (P) more than Tiger (H) its just so.. Amazing to make it simple even with its flaws I still love it and thank you Cone of Arc to talk about it finally thank you and have a good day :))
In the film 'White Tiger' the filmmakers mocked up (I believe) a T-34 to look like a Tiger. At first I found the turret positioning to be a bit jarring (the turret being at the front rather than the middle of the tank), but in my mind, I turned it into a Tiger (P) and my vexed nature settled down! I rewatched a post by Mark Felton afterwards that a couple of these vehicles actually served on the Eastern Front.
Thanks for the information on this vehicles development. 👍
for white tiger theyactually had 1 tiger 1 made... from scratch everything correct. but the tank would have (and did) take like a year to make and production started earlier then that so they mocked up a IS tank for white tiger
@@acedogboy8421 thanks for the information 👌
Holy crap is that a Pz. IV/V at 14:47? could you do a video on that?
Lmao i noticed that too
that looks so cursed lol
Holy shit, good catch!
To be fair that tank did existed few in numbers near end of ww2 because its more like a stop gap tank because Germany is already low on resources so already existing panzer 4 turret on Panther hull is more efficient than creating new Panther turret because they already have lot of panzer 4s so it's easier to modify existing turret than making one from scratch..when you are low everything.
Would love to see that in WoT or War Thunder
When I’m more interested in that Pz4 turret on a Panther chassis than anything else said in this entire video 14:48
A rather enlightening video i was always taught that the tiger(p) set its self alight during the initial trials just shows that there's still a fair bit to learn about the history of old armoured vehicles specially limited production/prototype vehicles. I wonder if it's stuck in some bog in Russia just waiting to be dug up and restored.... one can dream
Time traveller: moves a chair
Porsche Tiger: becomes the chosen full production Tiger tank
FINALLY someone mentions the Command Tank being refitted with Maybach Engines!
do we know specifically what engines they were? if i had to guess it was either the HL210, or the Smaller Maybach from the late Panzer IVs, the HL120, considering the engines fitted to the Porsche originally were V10s.
It surely wasnt the HL210, as the engine kept its original 2 engine design, and 2 HL210 just would not fit into the engine compartment.
Two HL120s would have given about the same power.
Most likely the HL120s
14:48
U should make a video about modified Panther hulls, like that in the picture of a Panther with the Panzer 4 turret at the back of the Porsche Tiger
One interesting thing to note is that there is still a concrete turret from the VK 45.01P in germany according to Michael Fröhlich`s book on the vehicle
Honestly I love this tank. Also didn't the vk4501 appear in your old intro?
14:50 is that a panther with a panzer 4 H turret, I would love to know more about that thing.
That was a WoT premium tank at one point, i think it was called panzer IV/V there
Danke!
Hey i know where that is at 1:17, its at the american heritage museum in Massachusetts, the tank in the background is a sherman, and the parts are for it!
Mr Porsche had some ideas...won't say they were all good ones but he at least had some.
Did you know that Tiger 131 not only has a turret orginally made for the tiger P, but to get it to run again long after the war ended, it was given the engine of a first production tiger 2 with a Krupp turret that still exists today in a museum, but is immobile by itself.
What the hell does that first part mean, bro it's got a tiger 1 turret
@ashkectchumgamer, sorry about that. Now that I see it, it kinda does seem off and confusing, I will correct it.
So the Tiger II that donated the engine is also still around too? That's super cool. :D
14:47: So the Panzer V/IV IS real?! What a shock!
That's what I said, I was like what the hell is that thing?! It didn't take long to identify it's a Panzer IV turret and Panther hull but, where did it come from and why is it with a Porsche Tiger?
@@adamg7984 It was either an artillery spotter or a command tank. The original turret was most likely destroyed, so the workshop put in a Panzer 4 turret, but the turret itself was not working and was rather installed to make the tank look "armed". But I could be wrong, because I read about it quite a long time ago
@@b0brik976 Thanks, friend! That's interesting stuff and I could see either reason making sense! It just needs to look armed to scare off enemy soldiers if it's just their for spotting or directing/commanding.
I think one other factor that made the Henschel to be chosen was the hull seems easier to produce. Most of the plates that make it are squarish and straight, almost blocky overall, while the Porsche Tiger has more plates in comparison and it has different angles on several of them, which in production just adds unnecessary complexity.
14:41 If the movie "White Tiger" was realistic, that Tiger P would have been the unkillable Tiger that Naydenov was assigned to defeat
What has always puzzled me is that although the Vk4501 P and the Henschel Tiger 1 have the same turret, both differ in War Thunder in one small detail. On the VK4501 P, the turret MG protrudes a bit from the turret, but not on the Tiger 1. So far I have not been able to find a hint on any photo whether this is true or not. So I don't know if Gaijin made a mistake with the models or not? ^^
Anyway, great video and thanks for your work!
Always excited to see you upload, easily my favorite tank history channel
I absolutely hated grinding through all the Tigers for World of Tanks with the exception of Tiger 2 German Tier 8 and Tiger 131 Japanese Tier 6 premium.
I appreciate your videos with all the historical discussions grounding the reasonings of their design and development, but in-game, stats and performance are, shall we say, "character building"
Do you mean the Heavy Tank No. VI? Tiger 131 saw action in North Africa with the Germans
Tiger 131 is the German Tiger I premium, the Japanese one is Heavy Tank No. VI
They're pretty much identical, VI has a slightly lower radio range than 131 and is a tiny fraction heavier, and the shell costs and velocities are also slightly different.
Sorry about that. It's been almost two years since I last played the German line in WoT
The Porche Tiger will always be an interesting design, especially with its choice of electronic transmission and other components like the bogey suspension. It makes one wonder how the poor transmission rumor came to be. Not to mention the question of "What if Porche was selected over Henshel in the Tiger contest?" But let's not forget its greatest modification added to it.
The turbo boost that allowed it to rocket forward at great speed.
Idk if anyone notices but in 14:48 is that a panther with a panzer 4 turret with it's shurtzen on?
14:47 pz4 turret on panther hull?
why do the tracks go from big to small?
“It has become a running joke that German tanks are prone to mechanical failures”.
If that’s the case, then the jokes run better then the tanks 😂
It looks so adorable tho, like a vw beetle turned into a tank! Makes me think of Italian tanks even!
Great video... A similar story is the DB Panther Design...( Great idea for a topic hint hint ) it almost happened and it might have produced a lighter Panther which could have been better . People focus on the first "T34 copy" and overlook the later rival design. Read " Professor Porsche's Wars " and you'll see he was building successful electric / gas powered vehicles before WW1. The idea was sound but copper was an issue during the war . I have read French "volunteer" workers calmed they would sabotage panther transmissions.. I think it is possible that many of the duds and breakdowns suffered by the Nazis could have been the results of forced labor sabotage . Porsche was not just a guy with Mega designs.... he was an engineer who wanted to built what the customer wanted... He saw it as his duty and a challenge. It is interesting to note that even the critic Guderian ( when referring to the mobil pillbox use of the Maus) said "With100 Panzers like the Maus, I'll hold the Eastern front." Hitler 1942 thought Tank armor and guns would get so big that the only way to get a head of it was to build a massive tank... Some of these "crazy" ideas aren't quite as crazy as we might think when we look closer. .... and their critics may be very misinformed . Thanks.. Oh... check out the 2nd tank in the background at 14:47 ... it looks kinda like a Panzer IV turret on a Panther kind of hull.... what is that? An illusion?
No. The 653 had three unique vehicles. Well, actually six. The Tiger I(P) and the three Tiger I (P) recovery vehicles. There was also a Panther tank recovery vehicle with the Panzer IV turret mounted, and at least one T34 with the German Quad 20mm Flak mount replacing the turret.
14:47 the tank behind the tiger p looks like a panzer 4 turret in a panther hull
14:48
There are 2 cursed things in that photo and we only have an answer to one
I cannot abide any video that contradicts the unassailable documentary series Girls Und Panzer. Good day sir
14:48 THE PZ V/IV IS REAL
Excuse me, but at 14:49 is that a Panther hull with a Panzer IV Turret? Can we talk about that?
At 14:48 is that a Panther hull with a panzer 4 h/j turret? at the back
-Ok Tiger, time to start your audience to be the next German heavy tank! Go!
*Spontaneously combusts out of pity for its existence 🔥👀*
Everyone else: OMG the Tiger P video.
Me: God damn I love Girls und Panzer
I recall from other book sources that tiger p 003 command tank actually served for a few month until it was destroyed in July 44 sometime during bagration, it had over 40 to 50 tank kills
It served yes, but the claim that it had a certain amoutn of kills is just a nonsense claim made by tat fraud Mark Felton, though his video on the TigerP has a lot of mistakes in it.
Whats the funky panzer 4 turret panther hull tank at 14:50?
1:23 Hey! I recognize that galley! that's the galley of the Nautilus! she's a museum ship just outside of my home base
Heya Cone! This is my first ever RUclips comment and I do it with a simple ask and/or suggestion. A while ago, I started doing twitter threads in the vain of your videos, so one of the threads was on the Panther tank. When I did a few segments on the captured Panthers, I couldn’t find anything on the French Panthers and could only find a few pictures of some Polish Panthers, one of which I have a model of! So my ask/suggestion is if you could tell the stories of Pudel, Fennick and their French and Russian cousins. I simply posted here because I LOVE the Porsche Tiger, unironically. Keep up the good work, otherwise.
You might wanna post on a new video
Never knew one made it to the front. That's actually a really neat bit of trivia.
14:48 is that pz4 turret on a panther hull.
Thanks for all your myth busting . I really mean that. You are doing a great job.
Yes the Porsche Tiger Video, I've been waiting for this Video, great work ConeOfArc
I have to say, I'm pretty knowledgeable when it comes to tanks.
I have never heard of the Derek Brooks Foggen, as the subtitles so eloquently put it.
Casually makes the most subtle sponsor segment transition
this scratches the tism spot so nicely
14:49 into the video it shows a railcar with a Panther tank (at the back) fitted with a PZKPFW IV turret! What is that all about?
At 14:48 there's a photo used with the Porsche Tiger sitting on a train with what appears to be a Panther hull with a Panzer IV turret on it. I'm not sure whether it's a photographic illusion or I'm not seeing something right. But I haven't seen that before. Also really enjoyed the video and all of your content.
I was thinking exactly the same thing, so started looking through the comments to see if anyone else had noticed it. apparently they had :D
@@wyverncoch4430 After I had reassured myself it looked like a Panzer IV gun mantle I did the same thing before I commented. I'm just glad I'm not the only one that thought it looked like that.
I had that one in WoT, was a premium tank and was one of my favourites to use :D
@@homesteadlegion4419 I could see why lol
Is it just me or does the ram tiger look like a giant beer opener?
The Von Manstein wanted an easily mass produced Tank. Churchill: “The best is the enemy of good enough”.
This is literally my favorite tank in war thunder as only heat/heat-fs can really pen it at its br.
You mean it's command variant? Because the original one only have 103mm of the front armour
perfect tank for the tiger guys which dont even try to angle
@@theoneandonlyartyom because if tiger P angle it make another weakspot
@@rizkidary837 i think to counter the weak front plate for it's BR people should play it hull down with it speed it could go somewhere like a hulldown position
@@rizkidary837 i meant the tiger H or E not the tiger 2
Hold up … at 14:51 , is that a panther chassis with a Panzer 4 Turret??
They also tried to fit a panther turret to a Panzer 4 chassis.
14:48 anybody also noticed that panther with panzer IV H turret?
I did a little digging around and discovered that while the Elefant was 10 tons heavier than the Henchel Tiger, it got much better fuel economy.
The porsche tiger's biggest issue was its cooling, which due to the engine compartment being relatively cramped meant that the engines didn't have adequate cooling. This lead to them overheating when full power was used from them, when climbing hills for example.
Keep it up brother 💪
U have nice voice and skills, I will support you,
Waiting for new and fascinating ancient and modern base
It would not have been known as one of the tanks of all time if it wasnt for its qualities
-sees anime
-clicks out of video
They really did have some beautiful machines.
In 14:50 minutes on the video, is that a real tank, not the tiger p but the panzer 4 turret on a panther hull?
It just feels good to have a vehicle (tractor) created by some legendary tank/car/tractor designer
Shortages of rare elements caused at least some of the problems in final drives of German tanks. Not only did the drives themselves have to be made from inferior steels, but the machine tools used to make them also had to use inferior cutting edges. This meant that the drives had to use a simpler type of gear that was even less resistant to breaking.
14:51 is that a Panther hull with a Pz IV turret???
yeah its a Pz IV/V - at least one was built and used I believe
What is that Panther hull with a Mark IV turret at 14.49?
Never seen such a thing, but it surely looks weird
It is the panzer V/IV
If I remember correctly, it was a Command Tank. The Pz. IV turret is basically non functional, and houses the Radioequipment.
Interesting, thanks for the replies
Didn't matter whch design they chose for Tiger, they would've done better with developing the mkIv Panzer and StuG III
The rush to always heavier designs was an error that led to an even earlier defeat. The gasoline shortage alone should have been reason enough to oft for smaller and lighter tanks that can be faster produced. While the Panzer IV could be produced in high numbers, the Tigers could not.
14:47 ?!? A PzIV turret on a Panther hull?!?
Don't worry, the engines lives on in a modified version in use for the t-14 armada MBT
No it doesn't, the Porsche tigers engine was gasoline not diesel and the Porsche diesel engines are 16 cylinder now 12 cylinders
@ConeOfArc hmm, I had heard that in the new laser pig video, he claims it was a modified sla.16. Thanks for informing me, I'm gonna so some more research
14:49
Is that a Pz IV H turret on a Panther chassie?!?!
For me the tiger p is my favorite German tank in WW2, and i always get my older brother annoyed but called it the superior tiger tank. I just like the look of turret moved more forward then the Henschel design ,just something about the tiger p makes me happy
A more logical approach to German WWII tech that isn't just reducing the entire branch down to one type of issue? Amazing
On a related Girls und Panzer fun fact tangent, though the tank is usually just referred to as a Porsche Tiger, it's called VK 45.01 (P) at least once, by a Chi-Ha-Tan member (Hosomi) in the second _das Finale_ episode. :)
14:48 is that a panther hull with a panzer IV turret?
I love the intro my dude
14:47, panzer4 turret on a panther hull? neat
Great and balanced discussion of this vehicle, its history and context.
Nice new opening for Cursed By Design! Love it
The design was definitely ahead of it's time and although combustion-driven electric vehicles have been in service; buses and city transit for example, none of them faced the same power to weight stipulations found in tank design
not really, St Chamond tanks had electric transmissions in WW1
If you read the comment, you'll note that the use of electric transmissions prior to the Tiger P, but that the use has been used most successfully outside of combat vehicles.
The St Chamond tank weighed in at 23 tons, and was described as underpowered. Busses and trucks that used electric transmissions were considerably lighter than even that while using the same engines and transmissions.
Electric transmissions in tanks suffered due to research and development constraints. The Tiger P arguably being one of the more successful examples, but still considered a failure by most