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At first I thought it was going to be like Darktide's coherence mechanic where the more allies are around you, the faster your toughness (armor) comes back, and gives some more bonuses depending on class perks. You can still regen with perks and melee, just not passively. This... this just sucks.
Tight formation + 2 Lictors + 2 Zoanthrope + 1 Neurothrope Who the hell thought of this? You stay together, you all die to Thrope AOE attack. You try to dodge it and now you have 0 way to regain armor and die to Lictor jumping you.
It's really not that bad, the radius for maintaining being able to gain armour back from finishers and Gun Strikes is as long as the formation guage isn't in the red.
I know this because I been through this minus the boss enemy and it's difficult sure, but learn to use cover to protect urself more. Though honestly if they just increased the overall range for the tight formation guage then I wouldn't complain. Lol
Tight formation should be a buff and not a nerf. Rather, if you are closer together then it’s a buff that’s activated that allows more melee damage and contested health to be gained back. And when out of “tight formation” then you won’t gain any of the advantages. This promotes playing as a team without screwing over those who don’t excel in being up close.
@@Ian501st a lot of the times I’ve played I’ve noticed that when I’m the final guy standing (the other two players are permanently dead and on their revive timer) that when I get executions or my gun finishers my armor doesn’t restore. Im not with my team (since they’re dead) and I can’t link up with them (cause they died) so now I have enemies rushing me and no way to restore armor.
Honestly going to pass on lethal until tight formation is removed. I want to play the mode, but I don't want the devs to think this is acceptable game design
Agreed, I could probably deal with it if the incentives were better, but a helmet that's barely different than the base and a "debatably" cool powersword isn't enough imo
Already beat all of them with randoms. Always had a sniper with us. Never a problem. If you play way off like a hero or in the back like a coward you don't deserve armor ❤️
Same. This is NOT Fun. I play this game for FUN. But the game is becoming NOT fun cause its getting too easy. LETHAL Difficulty is needed. But the Formation Mechanics DOGSHIT. It is NOT FUN. AT ALL. I will NOT be playing this. Hopefully they remove the garbage mechanic before more players like me lose interest in the game.
@moardakka9081 I hope so too, I personally like playing my way, and my teammates often run off to leave me to deal with the mob around me, or I move to deal with a pain in the butt ranged unit, but ig they want us grouped up so zoanthrope aoe can kill us easier
A lot of people aren’t talking about how this also opens a window for griefers and trolls, one person could literally wipe the lobby with this mechanic in place
That is true. If I even bother farming Lethal for the cosmetics I will be doing it solo. I have everything else unlocked so I might just spend my time on Remnant 2 or HD2. Definitely an L patch.
@@acfangaming I agree when I was having trouble playing with randoms because of that bull shit tight formation some people are still not used to that shit so a lot of time team got separated and lose. So I thought may be bots will stick close to me, like u said they are shooting from range I am always out of tight formation(randoms at least tried stay close as best as they can).
@@betterarmednothing gets more attention then toxic behavior. Maybe if we start doing it enough they’ll change the mechanic. It’s such a dogass patch tbh
A mechanic like "Tight Formation" should just boost armor regeneration not prevent it. These devs have never ran a dnd campaign and it shows. Players universally hate being punished for finding a solution to a problem in their own way.
At the absolute most, if it was gonna be negative. Just make it prevent the standard armor regen from time without damage. So you cant run away and wait 25-30 seconds while dodge rolling endlessly and regen armor, but if you get an exe or gs off you still getarmor back as normal.
They obviously didnt even test it either. It's a bad idea on paper there's surely no way professional game designs actually tried these changes out and thought: "Yeah, that's in a good place let's ship it no notes" What is it with developers and not mf testing patches like this? First HD2 with their mf spreadsheets now this?
@@anon4854 poor testing is par for the course in this game - the matchmaking has been broken since day 1 and they seem to have no interest in fixing it… I’m still spending 10 minutes before just about every run trying to find a squad that will let me play as whatever class I’ve chosen
@@markjmacrae I'm not going to reward them by playing their game anymore. I might come back when they fix this bs but I've already been through this with HD2 and I never went back.
Just make it like Darktides coherency system but that also included units that disable you and spawn much more frequently if you are out of coherency. Coherency also gives a small buff to people in range of coherency and allows you to regenerate armour.
Nope, no different perspectives. This tight formation thing is a step in the wrong direction. Instead make armor recharge happen 50% slower unless in tight formation and it comes. All other mechanics can stay the same
I kinda get exhausted by the insane hordes too though. Okay, you have a long dumb timer. But in combat there’s just this endless wave of majoris+ enemies so if a guy downs you barely even care enough to get him up or wait for the 5min revive cause you know there’s 10 more waves left and dwindling ammo, so who really even cares. But I’m probably a unique player in that way
@IloveGorgeousGeorge Honestly, THAT alone would make it 100x more tolerable, I was initially under the impression that was the case, but once I started playing, I experienced one of the dumbest ****ing things they could've possibly implemented. As a Vanguard, I jetpack down a level to stop a reinforcements alert, separated by my brothers they were up above handling the tyranids from behind and two neothropes, whilst I kept the swarm and a lictor busy below. Suddenly one of them goes down, the other manages to kill a neothrope but dies from the other; meanwhile I'm perfect parrying and fencing my ass off below with ground pounds from my relic thunder hammer and relic heavy bolter thundering off, until one ranged shot broke all my armor. But I thought, "no matter, this gunstrike will get me back" and nothin . . I perfect parry and fence, and get nothin . . I then proceed to get demolished within 30 seconds with literally zero ability to regain armor, even despite my teammates being downed / dead and unreachable 😐 Tethering and Nerfs need to go plain and simple, Doom Eternal Ancient God's P1 on Ultra Nightmare was some of the toughest-funnest gaming I've experienced in 20 f*ckin years, you were immensely powerful and badass but enemies were tough as nails and very smart, they didn't punish you to make it harder.
@@CommanderLongJohn oh dude don't even get my started on the Zoanthropes and Neurothropes while playing Bulwark solo. AI teammates are literally incapable of doing damage to a Terminus level enemy and I only have 10 charged shots with my plasma pistol since I can't finish even one Substantial mission solo, because my weapons have no perks and deal little damage. I'm super frustrated with this game and I feel like leveling up my Bulwark is all I'm accomplishing right now, but my gear is stagnant. I can mag dump into a Neurothrope and barely do 10% of its health, so then I run away and it teleports through the level following me, and shoots clear through walls lol. Plenty of it is truly a skill issue and I get that, but I dont know what I'm expected to do against a Neurothrope when I'm out of ammo after 1-2 minutes of shooting it.
So they did the exact mistake I've been talking about. Making the enemies even tougher, limiting your resources without a proper way to get more and make you even weaker. This is exactly how NOT to do high difficulty settings. The enemies should be a bit weaker in return for their aggressive and lethal nature and the players having less resources. Such a amateur level oversight. And I agree, that Tight Formation needs to go.
I can physically see the new ammo crate restrictions they've implemented as you and your teammates run through the ammo in the crate, and while it sucks to have a limit, I don't see myself running out of ammo with this new restriction in place. On Ruthless, the ammo crates never even become halfway depleted by the time we beat the mission in the final room of the new mission. But yeah, Tight formation sucks. Has anyone tested if it's just executions and minors parries that don't give armor back when too far, or is it EVERY source of armor-restore, including the ones that give it back from Perks on classes and weapons?
I agree with the sentiment but i disagree in saying thats what they did - the enemies only deal more damage and have more aggro/reinforcement mechanics their actual toughness is the same and imo thats fine. As for limitation of resources, the ammo crate change hasn't really done anything other than stopping the cheese at end of some maps. Unless by limiting of resources u mean tight formation because there's less armor resources in which case fair enough and yea like true vanguard and probably/hopefully most people, screw this mechanic lol
Wrong. After playing it, there are plenty of AMMO CACHES LAYING AROUND. You can play around with the horde around tunnels and ammo caches if you must. Play close to one another and as a team and its ggs
This entire change was in response to the players wanting the highest difficulty to be like a Souls game. At a certain point, the only way to make it harder is by making it more frustrating, and they’ve hit that point.
It was a modification for missions which you could dodge and play with and it was sometimes even fun and also it worked differently. You still could get health and health boost out of range. This is differnent. But good call nonetheless. It feels like sm2 should adapt more stuff from WWZ, more than they already eye balling from that game. Actually sm2 made me appreciate how good of an horde coop shooty WWZ was/is.
The squad cohesion debuff is absolute crap. I love playing against sauced up enemies and multiple extremis enemies but being punished for pushing as an assault is nothing more than a frustrating mechanic that does nothing to check my skill.
@@quangnguyentrung647 I'm trying to run the Heavy bolter more, its kinda alright but its proabbly worth it once it gets to Relic. If you had a friend to run with you they can run Assault or Bulwark since they typically won't be shooting much
Regarding Tight Formation, its like the devs took a look at Darktide's coherency system, and took the worst aspect of it without understanding why it worked. In Darktide, you are encouraged to stay close to your teammates, because while in coherency, you are provided with all sorts of buffs that makes your characters stronger, while make it easier to assist one another. Your toughness regeneration sources(the good ones at least) are not directly tied to coherency bonus, therefore your character still functions without being in coherency. A lot of the time, making solo plays to eliminate key threats is the optimal move, though in general you have a incentive to stick as a group. In Space Marine 2, armor regeneration is a base mechanic and KEY part to staying alive. Not staying close to teammate is basically a death sentence. So rather than encouraging the players to stay close, the game forces you to stay close, because otherwise you cannot survive at all. This not only invalidate class identities and player agency, but also neuters the power fantasy of being a space marine. It simply doesn't make much sense that your ability to be tough and shrug off hits is solely tied to being close to your buddies. They need to make some adjustment to this system if they wish to keep it in. As is, I can't see much enjoyment I can get out of this new difficulty.
The problem that i see with it, is much deeper, the combat system can make us invincible if you can parry and dodge on orange... (with the armor regen) In darktide there is way more things to manage, i personnally think the idea is good but how they made it need polishement + i hate the fact that in rutheless half my operation were just "follow dude with a melta and do nothing all game" it was super boring, i really enjoy the game way more with this limitation + like a lot of people are saying a squad of 3 marine would die in a few minutes in those mission, we are closer to that now and i enjoy it But it defenitely needs some polishing to not be just frustrating to a lot of player
These are the same devs that put tight ammo restrictions in a game with a class that has no melee weapon. Obviously thinking things through is not their strong suit. Whoever was in charge of this patch should unironically be fired. They are genuinely terrible at their job.
@@zerzo7223 Nope. Everything else on new difficulty is great. More Extremis enemies etc. But tight formation (in RPGs known as fireball formation) needs to go. No tweaking or tinkering. It will not work, it isn't fun and is detrimental to the game. There is too much happening on the screen, too much stuff forcing you to move for your movement to be limited be some barely visible coherency meter. Even in Vermintide there were 2 kinds of modifications in chaos wastes that would make you stick togather (like carrying purifying torch in level covered with corrupting miasma or torch in darkness). You had very clear indication when you were in and where the boundary is. This is just ass.
As soon as I saw that entry in the patch notes about not recovering armor if you're not near your teammates, I knew it was going to be awful if they didn't make the distance very generous. Sounds like they didn't, and it is.
Yeah, that's when I knew I wasnt going to even log in to play it until this bs gets fixed. I'm not even going to grind lower levels for weapon xp. I got plenty of other games in my backlog. Might even just play RDR2 again.
Standing on top of each other to complete the new difficulty doesn't create a "sense of pride and accomplishment". It feels like a being forced to clean a bathroom with a toothbrush with R. Lee Ermy over your shoulder emasculating the shit out of you.
I mean they only nerfed melta bombs and auspex scan against bosses. The increased difficulty here is ammo management, target prioritization and team cohesion. A lot more to it than your simple inaccurate complaint of what’s going on in this patch lol
@@zacharylopez8362 He's not wrong. Enemies do hit harder and they nerfed armor so we are in fact weaker. The patch basically reverted the previous one so now we're back to having our armor disappear when we get scratched. Only now we can't regen armor as easily as before.
Yeahhhhhhh I just loaded up a game to see if you were exaggerating about tight formation and let me say that was one of the most unfun mechanics I’ve ever had to deal with in a decade of gaming lol
Being punished for the actions of other players should rarely (if ever) be a thing in game mechanics. Being unable to generate armour because a random player moves out of range is lazy game design and absolutely unfun. Scrapping it entirely would be my preference. At worst, add a timer that begins when range is exceeded and enforces the mechanic when it ticks to zero. As the author mentioned, the mechanic forces you to play in suboptimal ways which punish some classes more than others. In a game with only six classes, having a full half of them be preferentially punished compared to the others is awful, especially when theres another mechanic that enforces class diversity.
it like they took Darktide mechanic and made it worse in Darktide, despite you out of your team cohesive, melee kill still regain armor and some perk "will regain armor when there are no enemies nearby by 8m" or "regain armor when you are surrounded by enemies within 8m" in SM2?? good fucking luck surviving
Tight Formation is basically going to invalidate lethal difficulty for people who only play random queue. I haven't gotten to play yet, but I was just thinking about how often my teams get separated without any way to regroup. For example, in the generator defense objective on Inferno, it's super common for one teammate to get caught by a wave on the platform with the ammo crate while the others rush the generator. And you don't have time to clear the platform and then move to the generator, especially if it's one of the far ones. I dunno, it seems like they could keep it around if they expanded the range to basically cover any given arena. But there are way too many scenarios where doing the right thing or even just making a tiny mistake seems overly punishing for the current implementation.
This was my first thought straight away. Half of the Inferno map sounds like a chore with this change, he'll even at the end setting up the trap like we are supposed to be on the 3 separate platforms watching the swarm deciding which way they come from and which console to switch. So we gonna have to stand together on one console and walk to the switch together if we wanna be able to keep having armor? I'm certainly positive the Devs have no testing team at this point. Perks, melee weapons, ranged weapons, feels like nothing was actually went through QA...
@@Lyonatan Yeah, it almost seems like it's meant to discourage using optional map mechanics that work best when you spread out. Or if it's not meant to, it does so unintentionally. And it's kind of a huge fuck you to anyone who likes playing sniper or heavy at all isn't it?
Just played and yeah it’s annoying. Doable for sure but you feel handcuffed to teammates with the range. Nobody wants to be butt buddies. Even on inferno when you have to hit the button from each platform.
This patch convinced me to take a break from Space Marines 2. The balance changes reminded me of those problematic sort of Dungeon Masters in DND who get mad if their boss gets beaten too easily, and rather than presenting new and exciting encounters instead opts to nerf/take away all the party's weapons, while buffing the stats of the enemies. Space Marine 2 is a great game, but whoever's in charge of the balance department are definitely not someone I'd want to play with.
Not to be that guy, but join super earth where you can destroy hundreds of bugs by yourself where are you can solo entire breaches of bugs by yourself where are you can have a true power fantasy where every single weapon is strong and constantly getting stronger where is the war is ever evolving a new content is being added join the hell divers (please do not find my location grab me by the neck and throw me into the sun. This is a complete joke. Please have mercy on my soul)
If I wanted darktide mechanics I’d play darktide. Im pretty sure that space marines are basically one man armies so let us (with good enough skill) one v one a hoard with parries, gun strikes, and executions!
Space Marines aren't exactly one man armies - that would be Custodes. That said diving classees having to NOT DIVE priority targets and just getting wittled down from ranged is just bad gameplay.
Wrong. This is why lore noobs should keep it to themselves. One warrior is actually slightly/moderately superior to an astartes in combat. If the game was Lore Accurate you'd have died on the first or second mission without MUCH more support than just 3 people
Tight Formation makes playing backline classes like the Sniper harder for no good reason. The whole point of the class is to pick off Majors from a distance and to provide support for downed players... It's literally in the trials. Having to be close to your allies also runs counter to how their ability works, since your dropping aggression and placing back to your teammates, which in a close quarters encounter means you're putting more pressure on your teammates. I really hope they rework or remove this mechanic.
I speak as a Darktide main; this system that Saber has implemented isn’t clunky, it’s detrimental. Darktide uses Cohesion, which is basically a generic buff that regenerates the armor equivalent when team members are close proximity, and each of the four classes has a perk that can add a bonus per each teammate in coherency, from damage output, to critical chance, even regenerating a grenade. But Cohesion in Darktide works because it meshes well with the class system, the overall design to player combat, and the fact that it isn’t necessarily critical to success nor failure, but merely increases the chances of surviving a fight. This mechanic that Saber added stunts the roles of two classes, one of whom is already unfavored because of how it was designed and progresses. How did anyone think this was a good idea to implement without general feedback?
Assault is unplayable on lethal. I say this as someone who has solo’d the hive tyrant on ruthless as assault. I typically try not to be reactionary to balance changes but it seems like virtually everyone is collectively face palming at this patch myself included. At least everyone except the rage baiters it seems.
yeah this patch literally kick Assault and Bulwark player in the balls for being a front line and a distraction for your team. at least Vanguards is pairing well since he have instigator bolter to help with range damage, it ironically the strong bolter lines outside of Bolter sniper rifle and stalker bolt. and his regain HP after execution also a good perk and i wish it build in for every class instead being exclusive to vanguards....like good old Space marines 1
I just completed all operations on lethal as assault but my biggest threat remains to be numerous zoanthropes or trying to play as the assault should be flanking and hitting back lines bc as soon as you do that you’re out of cohesion. Luckily I had teammates so we communicated and was able to push to the center but with randoms or bots forget it
Two corrections/additions: 1. Taking ammo from the ammo crates doesn't consume the same amount of ammo charges from the crate. It's dependant on what percentage of ammo you're replenishing on your weapons. So using the crate often even when you're not completely depleted won't harm the players except for shortening the uptime on their DPS since they waste time holding interact more often. 2. Enraged enemies also take more shots to be interrupted when calling reinforcements and possibly have even more health/take less damage.
oh no, now you can only uhhh cloak every 5 seconds breaking agro entirely and thus circumventing damage taken in the first place ??? tight formations changes basically nothing about sniper
@@ginjabr3ad330 you don't need to be hip to hip with your teammates, the effect also has more range than you give it also magical tech here you can try. you can cloak, move towards your teammates, get some armor back, then go away again if you really need to. I know, it's quite adventurous...
Let see what these devs are made of. If they apologize for the "Tight Formation" and remove it - big respect. I hope they don't stick to their flawed design decision to save their Egos.
They'd probably back-end the parry window for that too, since they reworked Fencing weapons to front-load the window while keeping the same width as the Balance, because I'm SURE everyone was asking for that. *eye-roll Overall, it doesn't feel as bad of a nerf as I initially thought. It turns out I was parrying with the perfect timing to the new Fencing stance window, so I basically don't have to change my muscle memory at all while trying to parry.
@@GoToBedSheevathat's would be too strong. only thing that makes majoris a little strong is they sometimes have a red attack in between blue attacks. If you could parey the red attacks, majoris would be a joke, especially chaos, if you could parry their fire aoe they would be a joke.
Damn as a solo player this gonna suck huge gigantic balls since 90% of all enemies will focus you and the bots are so random and shit at times you cant even depend on them in ruthless most the time. But fuck it least we got an update.
Yup, solo Ruthless is already annoying and they just made us even weaker. Lethal sounds like a waste of time solo. Balancing the game without consideration of paying with bots vs people is asinine.
Bro, I suffered so much today I actually thought having the bots was better than randoms. I'm playing assault soloing one lictor, one crawler, and god knows how many warriors, and my ranged team refuses to shoot the zoanthropes. Neither the players nor the bots will shoot at the right targets, so the only difference is, the bots won't die so fast lmao
@@budala1969 Devs should have to personally beat the hardest difficulty at least 50% of the time before shipping a patch like this. A little perspective would go a long way.
8:53 right! This isn't Army of Two, where you're back to back constantly. This is Warhammer, where tactics and positioning are the tabletop foundation.
Basically making the game ultimately more infuriating and almost impossible for snipers... Squishy as hell, can't handle hordes, but getting cooked by ranged enemies while not being able to restore armor without running into a situation that is gonna get you killed. Yeah I wish they'd run some of these ideas by the player base before launching. This would have been immediately nullified.
Sniper is still the most OP class in the game wth is this opinion. How the hell is a class able to drop aggro every second "squishy"? Lasfusil is effectively infinite horde clear, with access to permanent invisibility in the process of lining up gaunts... Maybe perk issue? if you run headshot damage aura instead of ability recharge, that'd explain a lot of things. I'll agree with you it's a bit harder to play against Chaos ever since they reduced smaller enemies packs. But that was last patch, not this one.
@@TheBeardedHam "more infuriating and almost impossible for snipers" make it sound like it was already mildly infuriating pre-patch for you. When it was (and still is) one if not the most broken class. Why would you even comment that reverse fact, in both past and present; and that even more now that you say you haven't tried?... That's just random negative criticism without basis.
I don't even see why bother with fencing weapons anymore if it's the same window, just showing earlier as a balanced weapon, in that case just take the extra stats from balanced weapons.
I don't see why ppl are overreacting to this, the reason fencing weapons are good in the first place is the fact that it gives u the window to parry "too late" since it always gave frames before the parry window compared to balanced. Like conceptually who the hell is parrying way too far in advanced compared to being "too late"? the only thing this really changes is the fact that u dont parry like 10 minoris jumping at u in staggered formation and instead parry like 5 of them now edit: also i dont think this changes weapon choices anyway for chainsaw, hammer (whose fencing variants are better anyway) and combat knife (since the balanced version is sooo much better as well) - no clue about power fist and sword (hate the fist and don't play bullwark)
@@Xeonzs The frames being at the start of the animation is way better because it means you can react to attacks that catch you off guard way faster. It will absolutely save your life when that lictor or warrior attacks you from off screen and you only notice at the last second. The frames being in the middle of the animation mean you literally can't react to stuff that surprises you in time with a balanced weapon. So fencing weapons are still definitely the best melee weapons.
@AlfredBundy what u say basically makes no difference with the patch then. Fencing still let's u have that clutch parry. I played 300hrs with balanced weapons going from sniper to bulwark to assault. Fencing was stupidly broken with that parry window and from a gamedesign standpoint basically made standard weapons obsolete because balanced weapons offered nothing, stats differences are arbitrary. Now Fencing is still helpful for not so skilled players but doesn't make it so that picking a standard weapon feels like a punishment. So yeah, u can still do that last moment parry on the offscreen ravager, but now u not gonna get around just spamming parry.
@@manhoenguy6104 I find myself parrying in advance to be fair. I'll read a tyrannic warrior turning or moving sometimes as an attack if I'm in melee range. Slight skill issue, and despite that I still haven't had any issues yet with the new system. I am still having trouble with AI though when I want to play with them. They are still absolutely worthless. Watched my sniper AI teammates miss every single shot against a still neurothrope. "We don't want AI to carry" so the devs make them worthless. I'm not even sure actual players can carry very effectively since enemies can be so random. These devs are trying to get around issues like OP AI that done even exist yet. Just make the AI better, if it's OP then tone it down. It's easier to dull a knife than sharpen it.
I agree and have another problem with devs keep fussing around with parry timings every update. We need to take time adjusting our body to perfect parry but every update they change parry frames forces us to adjust again from the start.
600hr Helldivers 2 Veteran here, this is how it started for us before the 60-day plan. They started nerfing weapons for the sake of build diversity, and made the game worse overall for a long time until it started affecting playercount. I highly recommend voicing your opinions on things before there's no one left to voice opinions. "Fun for the sake of fun" was what this game was about at launch. If they remove the fun, then what is it for?
the game are already on the old path of HD2/D4, the only reason ppl stay playing because of it is fun, and dev are taking it away by nerfing on players and gears, making it a torturing game with no worthy rewards, hardcore players might still enjoy but majority players will just quit the game.
anotherHD2 player here youre ignoring the fact that there were even more buffs in this patch also that there is almost 0 reason to not use fencing weapons with the stats everything previously had not only were the stats of balance and block weapons generally not good enough to warrant using, more consistent parries is just the best thing you can ever ask for as its by far the strongest defensive tool all classes have access to. making fencing a side grade instead of objectively better than balance with the current stat distributions at least is interesting because theres only 1 melee weapon in the game where balance (and block by extension) actually have objectively better stats than fencing. hell id argue that on several weapons, fencing actually does in fact have the best stat spread, completely defeating the balancing aspects of the block types.
except the changes that may ruin the fun, if fun no more, the game will go downhill very quick, reality is majority players care about the game is enjoyable or not.
It’s the sniper majoris. Usually you see that little green light on you for a second, but sometimes they can be charging it up on your team or it’s stuck on environment, then when it gets to you it just instantly fires and drops you.
Bro this just happened to me on inferno as a bulwark. Before i died i saw like a frag explosion. I was losing my mind on lethal with that long ass timer. Luckily for some reason when i died it dropped the gene seed and i was able to grab it when i respawned. Also, the death didn’t get counted on the end screen? So the game knew it was some BS i had full health and armor.
I could see how that tight formation mechanic can suck, when you have a Heavy away from the wave delivering the Emperor's heavy support but getting peopered by green projectiles? That's punishing a helpful class from doing their best functions. Good for an all melee team, but ranged? HUGE pain in the ass. It would be better if tight formation helps your armor regenerate 25% faster than normal or get a slow health regen going like the first. I know it's mainly meant for the masochistic players, but there's a huge chunk of normal players out here as well
Completely agree about the issues you raised over tight formation. One thing i would add, which i find just as annoying as the mechanic itself, is how much your screen gets dimmed, and the edges of your fov blurred when you are not in "tight formation". I hate motion blur in games, and i hate when my brightness setting is constantly changing, and because you have to stay so close for tight formation, any normal run will see you constantly having this dim/clear/dim/clear cycle which i find very annoying.
@@jeffs3119 Yeah at first I thought my settings had reverted to default because of the patch. It's even worse when you have the blood splatter from being low health too.
Wow. That alone sounds painful. I’m sensitive to stuff like that too. Not to mention, having to keep an eye on that stupid bar on the bottom of the screen and it doesn’t even change color when you are 100% in tight formation. What a terrible feature this is.
@@richardgibson2158 I swear the people who say this are the ones with a constant 3 man of people they can play with for communication or are the people speed running and rolling their way through maps like that’s how you’re meant to play. When you are just with randoms, and especially those who don’t get on mics it is definitely different.
There is an extra problem: if you are the last man standing, you can't recover armor in any way (I haven't tested armor boost from boxes). With the 5 min respawn timer, its almost impossible to recover, or a 5 minute waiting game if your partners died at the end of the fight, and you want to play it safe.
Okay as someone who dont play with friends, tight formation is a death sentence to my online SM2 career, ruthless was already significantly more enjoyable with bots instead of players... Also I was expecting them to actually just throw more and faster majoris on us but make them more fragile. Enemy is more lethal, but so we are. This new difficulty was a big ooopsie, should have had let it cook more.
I completely agree with you. The only thing that bothers me in this update is the tether mechanic. Not only does it ruin class identity as you mentioned but if both teammates fully go down you just....don't get armour?! fuck me I guess for surviving. Then there's operations that require you to separate for objective purposes like the helldrake fight for example. It just doesn't fit. I don't mind the mechanic itself if it was a straight up melee game, or if it worked where it gave you a BONUS to melee damage when you are close rather than nerfing armour. As it stands it just doesn't fit this game at all.
Then people would complain that the cool stuff would be blocked by high difficulty. I'm fine with the survivor helmet, that is interresting only for the one that wants a challenge.
Only had a chance to do two Lethal runs before work. I agree on Tight Formation. Made it very difficult to be Vanguard with a team that had Bolter carrying Heavy and Tactical. Got all the way to the end of Sword of Atreus, charged the ship to 100% and died to two terminators before anyone could hit the button to win. Just *crushing* lol.
Make the tight formation a buff. Also if you're the only one alive tight formation is completely inactive. So even if you're play perfectly as the last alive you don't get any heals. You just have to hide or die.
Maybe keep it as is but instead of not letting you heal at all. Make it so that you can only regen hp with executions and gun crits. There just needs to be SOME survivability for when you're the last alive.
You know how in D2 there's those rotating modifiers? If the Tight Formation thing was like a rotator that would sometimes appear I could see that being interesting to force players into maybe a class they don't play as much, or to have to problem solve on the fly. Especially like, if it showed up during certain points. Like oh crap, 40% chance in x fight that this modifier pops up, so now your whole team needs to adjust how they've been playing so far to account for this. Sounds like a bummer though, because I totally get what you're saying about punishing correct decision making, that would bug me if I was normally a class that would need to stay back like a sniper or a heavy off to the side.
The tight formation single handedly makes it not fun. I’ve completed all operation on lethal and my biggest complaint is strictly that. Maybe some rng issues where you’re fighting a carnifax, 2 zoanthropes, with a ravener is pretty bad but other than that I feel like with the removal of the tight formation it wouldn’t be an issue. That and the random instant deaths; one from ascension perk still, the other from just heart attack I guess. Oh and the crashing that’s annoying
Excellent overview of the new difficulty, thank you. I agree with you on the new team mechanic and feel that directly and negatively impacts the design of the classes and how they are meant to compliment each other. An alternative to the new mechanic would be to turn that into a buff or de-buff depending on distance. If the team is close together they could get an armor recharge time decrease making it beneficial to be close to each other. Conversely, if the team spreads out perhaps the de-buff means you take more damage. Something along those lines would be fun and keep the class design intent where it should be.
❤Lethal difficulty is what I expected it to be. Termination Ops level design is properly for 5-man combat squad. Enemy numbers and buff make it more challenging. I haven't had to parry 10+ times in 30 s for a while, quite refreshing. My chainsword should have its legendary status.😂 ✅️Melee weapon feels more powerful, and responsive. ❌️ Tight formation penalty is an interpretation of Unit Coherency off the tabletop, but rather than a buff if you stay close proximity, instead you get a debuff. This not working for core gameplay mechanics. Tight formation should be a buff to compensate for increase in difficulty. Perhaps a - delay for armor restore.
bro stop crying, people have asked for a harder difficulty and when they finally give you one, you can’t beat it and start complaining. this dev team has put in so much effort to try to make this game as fun as possible so cut them some slack.
@@Azurezzzzxzxz Agreed. The amount of crying babies in these comment sections is pathetic. Not everyone can be the best gamer, people have to accept that, but they can't. They need every mode to be casual and easy or they cry and cry till mommy feeds them from a spoon. God I'm sick of this 'Fanbase'. Completed a Lethal mission earlier with randoms, people crying it's impossible, sorry to tell you this, but it is possible, very possible.
@@BOB-sq7id I'll relax when people stop hating entire dev teams because they are bad at game bro. I've seen people literally threatening the dev team. It's beyond unacceptable to literally threaten them, accuse them of hating their fanbase and rally others to despise them, simply because they aren't very good at a singular difficulty.
I agree with your stance 100%. I think Lethal is solid, except for the tight formation mechanic! Staying stacked together to recover armor charges really goes against some of the classes play styles
I haven’t played the new update yet, but as an Assault main, i am very concerned about the tight formation mechanic. I hope it either goes away or has a much bigger range so the more aggressive classes can play their part in the squad
As someone who played one match of Lethal on the new Op with Assault, it's crippling. I used my jump pack on some enemies, got separated from the team, couldn't regain armour and got two-tapped by a sniper.
@@mr.god.complexyou CAN still regenerate armor on gun strikes. However. Being an assault means being mobile and waiting to ambush the enemy, this usually puts you at a bit of distance with your teammates, so if you’re out of range when you gun strike, no armor regen on gun strikes. It’s what got me killed my last lethal run just a little while ago.
@@ChuteMi-df2es that’s my concern because i always just jump in and spam ground pound and charged attacks to give some breathing room to my team, but i am concerned that i will get destroyed if i play that aggro
I've only played a few missions on Lethal, and I definitely agree with the problem - I play Heavy, while my friend loves playing Vanguard. I sit playing overwatch with the heavy bolter cutting down the ranged Majoris while he keeps the melee and Minoris enemies off me. The tether almost forces me to play with the Melta, and I have worked myself away from playing the crutch that was that weapon since hitting 25 and unlocking everything on Heavy. Heavy Plasma does play a little better for close encounters, but only because you can fire at your feet to clear Minoris but that means you burn through the limited ammo a lot faster.
Yup thats my other issue with the mechanic. And its annoying already saw a bunch of assaults struggling with the mechanic cuz one wittle jump is too far.
Nah I think Tactical (specifically with grenade launcher) is gonna be played more than anything. Vanguard and assault players are gonna get frustrated cause sticking that close to the team is not what they do normally.
yeah, squads are gonna need to break down into either all melee or all ranged, and if its all ranged then ammo is likely gonna be a serious issue, but all melee is gonna be getting hammered by ranged enemies and unable to split off and deal with them. so idk, at best this mechanic kills team diversity. I was already frustrated by not being able to have multiple of the same class on a squad, forcing me to change class even more is gonna make this difficulty impossible to play with randos.
For anybody who can't wait until S4 for Horde mode: If you play solo or with two friends (or people you convince to do this) and just hang around in one area then infinite enemy waves will spawn 😗 With this mechanic in mind, I truly don't understand why this game doesn't have (at a bare minimum) a basic Horde mode, basically like some of the final stages of operations.
The tether mechanic just kills any desire to be melee or sniper on lethal. Instead of making the enemies chunkier, hit harder, and making the player weaker, they should have just stuck with removing the extremis spawn cap like they did, but then add random modifiers in that change the outcome of the mission. Increased range enemy spawns, but they do 5% less damage. Or no terminus enemies spawn, but every extremis spawn is a zoenthrope/sorcerer. Only majoris enemies spawn in higher numbers with more health, but more resource spawns. It would make lethal difficult but more fun and adding replayability.
It is ok to face 3 extremis and a boss at the same time It is ok the higher lethal difficulty range enemy hit harder It is ok the wave is much larger It is ok you nerf the armor even it is unnecessary because the mob hit much harder now But THIS BULLSHIT TEAM SYSTEM IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!! Cancel it immediately! I mean immediately!!!
It's my opinion that this new difficulty is made for premade groups. The new mechanic is about risk management where armor/hp is now a resource. Your gonna have to get comfortable with losing it and being able to beat challenges on a pixel of life. This difficulty is not for the majority who play the game, including those who like harder difficulties. That's likely the reason it only unlocks one helmet cosmetic. It is what it is.
The game already implicitly punished you by failing to maintain formation (more likely to get surrounded, less able to benefit from teammates abilities). How many times have pugs failed because someone was running off on their own, triggering sentries, not helping with the objective etc. Adding a mechanic that arbitrarily harms you on top of this wasn’t needed.
Lol the game was piss easy before it didnt punish you. Worse thing that could happen was like 4 tyranid warriors on ruthless. If you have 2 braincells and just a modicum of game sense you could solo ruthless with grey weapons
Kinda like and understand the Coherency-like (as in Darktide) mechanic, or at least the teamplay driven intention behind it, though i don't like that it TAKES away the ability to gain armor rather than just giving a bonus potential not tied to the health mechanics already established. No need to take away, it should be a bonus rather than a penalty.
Man if you're getting cooked with Bul/Tac/Sniper and optimal setups, the rest of us are eff'd. RIP Assault lol. We'll probably just skip Lethal like we did Cata on VT2, if you don't get any tangible rewards from it other than paint, we're good. Gives the players who thrive on ball-ache difficulty something to play on and the casuals can have fun still too.
I love how they made Vanguard just entirely useless in Lethal. Oh, see that venom canon Tyranid across the Horde at the other side of the room? Remember how Vanguard was specifically designed to deal with such threats? Yeah, can't do that anymore, sorry. Imagine making a entire class about picking off priority targets fast, and then add a modifier that heavily punishes them (and effectively kills them) for doing the job they were designed to do.
@@CedricBassman There's no way the devs keep this as it is. No way. I'd legitimately be shocked with the backlash it's getting. But I've seen some crazy things in games over the years.
@@sarkmangaming8164they care to much about the game to let something as class killing as that go. They HAVE to do something. Also if they want anyone actually touching lethal they need better rewards. More xp and some money with skins at the end is such a piss poor reward for testing your skills and patience for 30 minutes plus. I’ll be patient since this is introduction of lethal but it’s getting some backlash and for good reason
How dumb can you be to create a game with different classes that have different purposes then negate all your hard work and thought into making those classes by forcing the players to hold hands instead of doing what they are suppose to do
@@polskipolak9073 wait I have only played the new difficulty, in that case I apologise I was mistaken. That seems like an odd choice a d in that case definitely agree it should be reversed at least on the lower difficulties
Thats not true in a pve game though??? if a balancing issue goes "players are too bulky" then increasing enemy damage or reducing player defenses effectively complete the same job of balancing. This is just an outright incorrect statement you're positing
@@magiv7573 I'm legitimately not incorrect. These changes make zero sense. Ontop of that no one asked for them. The game was by far not easy. One minor fuck up can derail the entire run. Armor being reduced makes zero sense because enemies still can eat through your armor. Weapons still feel weak.
On top of this enraged enemies seem not properly tuned and very rushed, The visual is a red dot aroudn their head with 0 effects and they refused to get staggered. Killing a devourer warrior for it to randomly get enraged when it was almost dead and then it 3 shot me at 2 armour and 50% hp... Edit: Also I fully agree with the video. My thought before playing was "Close bettter be 1 side of the hive tyrant arena to the other side". If it is this close then just have like 5-10% less I frames during parry/dodge when ur to far away from your allies.
In Darktide, there is a mechanic called "Coherency". The difference between it and "Tight Formation" is that it gives you buffs for sticking together, instead of nerfing your for not sticking together. I think changing "Tight Formation" to be more like "Coherency"would pretty much fix every problem with the new difficulty.
Lethal basically negates having short, mid, and long range all playing together well. It reminds me of Togetherness in Destiny 2, which is an automatic no go for me. Also 10 year old me giggled at “dingledongle.”
I’m glad you pointed this out, I didn’t like the distance mechanic for this exact reason. It’s frustrating especially since the range is so unforgiving
![GEEK TIMË [OFFICIAL AUDIO]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ry-6RvkH880/mqdefault.jpg)
What do you think of the new Lethal difficulty mode? Do you agree with my assessment or no?
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They need to fix this tight mechanic
At first I thought it was going to be like Darktide's coherence mechanic where the more allies are around you, the faster your toughness (armor) comes back, and gives some more bonuses depending on class perks.
You can still regen with perks and melee, just not passively.
This... this just sucks.
Maybe it should just be 2 of 3 in the area. You would as a team still need to move in/out of execution area.
Totally agree on tight formation 👍🏻 needs removing
@@TrueVanguard I haven’t tried it yet but ruthless was actually buffed a bit. I wiped a few times this morning and I hadn’t wiped that bad in a while.
Titus: Lictors hunt alone.
Lethal difficulty: well yes, but actually no.
We had 4
The Lictors can hunt in packs if you don't have Warhammer plus and didnt pirate the The Tithes Tv show EP2 has lictors hunting in a pair.
Just parry and counter shot them, they die fast like that.
i thought they were trying to keep it lore accurate???
I just comment for stats. Was expecting an amazing patch. So bad design. THINK DEV, THINK!
Titus lied. Lictors don't hunt alone after all.
Turns out he was a heretic this whole time. Leandros was right
Tyranid hive: HE'S GONE, THE NAMED CHARACTER IS GONE! BRING OUT THE CASES OF GOOD SHIT, THE PARTY BEGINS!
@@grimreminder5038 Love this Comment 😂
@@grimreminder5038 I believe it was 3 von Ryan’s. With the custodes killing the 1 lictor . Still pretty crazy they worked in tandem
@@SleepySovietbeat me to it haha
Tight formation + 2 Lictors + 2 Zoanthrope + 1 Neurothrope
Who the hell thought of this? You stay together, you all die to Thrope AOE attack. You try to dodge it and now you have 0 way to regain armor and die to Lictor jumping you.
Hahaha. I thought the game was too easy. Bloody sweats just coerced the devs into panick buffing difficulty. Fantastic work.
Bro i had 4 lictors coming at me at once lol, 4 f…g lictors
@@FazeParticlesshut up
It's really not that bad, the radius for maintaining being able to gain armour back from finishers and Gun Strikes is as long as the formation guage isn't in the red.
I know this because I been through this minus the boss enemy and it's difficult sure, but learn to use cover to protect urself more.
Though honestly if they just increased the overall range for the tight formation guage then I wouldn't complain. Lol
Tight formation should be a buff and not a nerf. Rather, if you are closer together then it’s a buff that’s activated that allows more melee damage and contested health to be gained back. And when out of “tight formation” then you won’t gain any of the advantages.
This promotes playing as a team without screwing over those who don’t excel in being up close.
💯
This is a better idea. I also like the idea of adding team combo kill counters when you stay close and that gives you a tiny buff .
Very good idea. You should pitch it to the devs
That could have been a cool mechanic
Damn that’s actually an amazing mechanic idea!
Has anyone run into the issue where both your battle brothers are dead and you now have ZERO ways to restore armor ?
Huh
Only complain I have
@@Ian501st a lot of the times I’ve played I’ve noticed that when I’m the final guy standing (the other two players are permanently dead and on their revive timer) that when I get executions or my gun finishers my armor doesn’t restore. Im not with my team (since they’re dead) and I can’t link up with them (cause they died) so now I have enemies rushing me and no way to restore armor.
@@Redblade1420 I cant belive that got past QA, thats an one hell of an oversight
@@Ian501st I adore the game, but I think we are the QA at this point.
Honestly going to pass on lethal until tight formation is removed. I want to play the mode, but I don't want the devs to think this is acceptable game design
Agreed, I could probably deal with it if the incentives were better, but a helmet that's barely different than the base and a "debatably" cool powersword isn't enough imo
Already beat all of them with randoms. Always had a sniper with us. Never a problem. If you play way off like a hero or in the back like a coward you don't deserve armor ❤️
Same. This is NOT Fun. I play this game for FUN. But the game is becoming NOT fun cause its getting too easy. LETHAL Difficulty is needed. But the Formation Mechanics DOGSHIT. It is NOT FUN. AT ALL. I will NOT be playing this. Hopefully they remove the garbage mechanic before more players like me lose interest in the game.
@moardakka9081 I hope so too, I personally like playing my way, and my teammates often run off to leave me to deal with the mob around me, or I move to deal with a pain in the butt ranged unit, but ig they want us grouped up so zoanthrope aoe can kill us easier
Tight formation should reward you with trickling in health, it just undo the friggin update honestly.
A lot of people aren’t talking about how this also opens a window for griefers and trolls, one person could literally wipe the lobby with this mechanic in place
That is true. If I even bother farming Lethal for the cosmetics I will be doing it solo. I have everything else unlocked so I might just spend my time on Remnant 2 or HD2. Definitely an L patch.
@@brenthumphrey4625good luck doing it solo when your bots don’t go in melee and instead choose to shoot from range (my experience)
@@acfangaming I agree when I was having trouble playing with randoms because of that bull shit tight formation some people are still not used to that shit so a lot of time team got separated and lose. So I thought may be bots will stick close to me, like u said they are shooting from range I am always out of tight formation(randoms at least tried stay close as best as they can).
I’m gonna
And if we all decide to cooperate on this sabotage, they will change it.
@@betterarmednothing gets more attention then toxic behavior. Maybe if we start doing it enough they’ll change the mechanic. It’s such a dogass patch tbh
A mechanic like "Tight Formation" should just boost armor regeneration not prevent it. These devs have never ran a dnd campaign and it shows. Players universally hate being punished for finding a solution to a problem in their own way.
Great suggestion!
At the absolute most, if it was gonna be negative. Just make it prevent the standard armor regen from time without damage.
So you cant run away and wait 25-30 seconds while dodge rolling endlessly and regen armor, but if you get an exe or gs off you still getarmor back as normal.
They obviously didnt even test it either. It's a bad idea on paper there's surely no way professional game designs actually tried these changes out and thought: "Yeah, that's in a good place let's ship it no notes"
What is it with developers and not mf testing patches like this? First HD2 with their mf spreadsheets now this?
@@anon4854 poor testing is par for the course in this game - the matchmaking has been broken since day 1 and they seem to have no interest in fixing it… I’m still spending 10 minutes before just about every run trying to find a squad that will let me play as whatever class I’ve chosen
@@markjmacrae I'm not going to reward them by playing their game anymore. I might come back when they fix this bs but I've already been through this with HD2 and I never went back.
Tight Formation should apply a buff, example "Emperor's Agility" 10% increased attack speed.
I was thinking about the same thing, that would work far better than what they went with
Just make it like Darktides coherency system but that also included units that disable you and spawn much more frequently if you are out of coherency. Coherency also gives a small buff to people in range of coherency and allows you to regenerate armour.
Nope, no different perspectives. This tight formation thing is a step in the wrong direction. Instead make armor recharge happen 50% slower unless in tight formation and it comes. All other mechanics can stay the same
Or team perks only apply when you are in formation would work pretty well too.
I saw "Tight formation" and automatically thought of football 😂 .
Not re-spawning when your team transitions from one area to the next made my team just wait for the timer..them being safe in the transition area.
Yeah great gameplay, standing around waiting for a timer.
yes this difficulty was an all around failure. terrible design choices.
Yeah that was a bad choice and I didn’t see that in patch notes so we started the hive tyrant fight with 2 people.
I kinda get exhausted by the insane hordes too though. Okay, you have a long dumb timer. But in combat there’s just this endless wave of majoris+ enemies so if a guy downs you barely even care enough to get him up or wait for the 5min revive cause you know there’s 10 more waves left and dwindling ammo, so who really even cares.
But I’m probably a unique player in that way
The timer lowers if you do finishers which kinda helps
The fact you can't regain armor with gunstrikes and parry's far away from your squad is beyond absurd
Lol it's literally the whole function of executions and gunstrikes. Absolutely baffling decision on a lot of this stuff
@IloveGorgeousGeorge Honestly, THAT alone would make it 100x more tolerable, I was initially under the impression that was the case, but once I started playing, I experienced one of the dumbest ****ing things they could've possibly implemented.
As a Vanguard, I jetpack down a level to stop a reinforcements alert, separated by my brothers they were up above handling the tyranids from behind and two neothropes, whilst I kept the swarm and a lictor busy below. Suddenly one of them goes down, the other manages to kill a neothrope but dies from the other; meanwhile I'm perfect parrying and fencing my ass off below with ground pounds from my relic thunder hammer and relic heavy bolter thundering off, until one ranged shot broke all my armor. But I thought, "no matter, this gunstrike will get me back" and nothin . . I perfect parry and fence, and get nothin . . I then proceed to get demolished within 30 seconds with literally zero ability to regain armor, even despite my teammates being downed / dead and unreachable 😐
Tethering and Nerfs need to go plain and simple, Doom Eternal Ancient God's P1 on Ultra Nightmare was some of the toughest-funnest gaming I've experienced in 20 f*ckin years, you were immensely powerful and badass but enemies were tough as nails and very smart, they didn't punish you to make it harder.
@@CommanderLongJohn oh dude don't even get my started on the Zoanthropes and Neurothropes while playing Bulwark solo. AI teammates are literally incapable of doing damage to a Terminus level enemy and I only have 10 charged shots with my plasma pistol since I can't finish even one Substantial mission solo, because my weapons have no perks and deal little damage. I'm super frustrated with this game and I feel like leveling up my Bulwark is all I'm accomplishing right now, but my gear is stagnant. I can mag dump into a Neurothrope and barely do 10% of its health, so then I run away and it teleports through the level following me, and shoots clear through walls lol.
Plenty of it is truly a skill issue and I get that, but I dont know what I'm expected to do against a Neurothrope when I'm out of ammo after 1-2 minutes of shooting it.
So they did the exact mistake I've been talking about.
Making the enemies even tougher, limiting your resources without a proper way to get more and make you even weaker. This is exactly how NOT to do high difficulty settings. The enemies should be a bit weaker in return for their aggressive and lethal nature and the players having less resources. Such a amateur level oversight. And I agree, that Tight Formation needs to go.
I can physically see the new ammo crate restrictions they've implemented as you and your teammates run through the ammo in the crate, and while it sucks to have a limit, I don't see myself running out of ammo with this new restriction in place. On Ruthless, the ammo crates never even become halfway depleted by the time we beat the mission in the final room of the new mission. But yeah, Tight formation sucks. Has anyone tested if it's just executions and minors parries that don't give armor back when too far, or is it EVERY source of armor-restore, including the ones that give it back from Perks on classes and weapons?
You're just garbage
I agree with the sentiment but i disagree in saying thats what they did - the enemies only deal more damage and have more aggro/reinforcement mechanics their actual toughness is the same and imo thats fine. As for limitation of resources, the ammo crate change hasn't really done anything other than stopping the cheese at end of some maps.
Unless by limiting of resources u mean tight formation because there's less armor resources in which case fair enough and yea like true vanguard and probably/hopefully most people, screw this mechanic lol
Wrong. After playing it, there are plenty of AMMO CACHES LAYING AROUND. You can play around with the horde around tunnels and ammo caches if you must. Play close to one another and as a team and its ggs
This entire change was in response to the players wanting the highest difficulty to be like a Souls game. At a certain point, the only way to make it harder is by making it more frustrating, and they’ve hit that point.
The devs had this "tight formation" crap in WWZ for special missions and it was avoided like the plague
It was a modification for missions which you could dodge and play with and it was sometimes even fun and also it worked differently. You still could get health and health boost out of range. This is differnent. But good call nonetheless. It feels like sm2 should adapt more stuff from WWZ, more than they already eye balling from that game. Actually sm2 made me appreciate how good of an horde coop shooty WWZ was/is.
My vet on darktide lasts longer than these space marines
@@spysong1324it’s made by the same people and was built on the same base, that’s why it’s already pretty similar.
The squad cohesion debuff is absolute crap.
I love playing against sauced up enemies and multiple extremis enemies but being punished for pushing as an assault is nothing more than a frustrating mechanic that does nothing to check my skill.
Sniper and Heavy are also being shafted in the ammo department.
are ya'll..runnig out of ammo as heavy?
@@MisterReapZz yes, most of us are not actually not real super spacemarine blooded mlg pro league ivy hardcore mega gamer like you are.
@@MisterReapZz Running Heavy Bolter means you run out of ammo very quick since there are so many Majoris and armor are few and between
@@black_thunder2159 Maybe try being a better person, then you might be a better gamer afterwards.
@@quangnguyentrung647 I'm trying to run the Heavy bolter more, its kinda alright but its proabbly worth it once it gets to Relic. If you had a friend to run with you they can run Assault or Bulwark since they typically won't be shooting much
Regarding Tight Formation, its like the devs took a look at Darktide's coherency system, and took the worst aspect of it without understanding why it worked.
In Darktide, you are encouraged to stay close to your teammates, because while in coherency, you are provided with all sorts of buffs that makes your characters stronger, while make it easier to assist one another. Your toughness regeneration sources(the good ones at least) are not directly tied to coherency bonus, therefore your character still functions without being in coherency. A lot of the time, making solo plays to eliminate key threats is the optimal move, though in general you have a incentive to stick as a group.
In Space Marine 2, armor regeneration is a base mechanic and KEY part to staying alive. Not staying close to teammate is basically a death sentence. So rather than encouraging the players to stay close, the game forces you to stay close, because otherwise you cannot survive at all. This not only invalidate class identities and player agency, but also neuters the power fantasy of being a space marine. It simply doesn't make much sense that your ability to be tough and shrug off hits is solely tied to being close to your buddies.
They need to make some adjustment to this system if they wish to keep it in. As is, I can't see much enjoyment I can get out of this new difficulty.
Should just call it the power of friendship
The problem that i see with it, is much deeper, the combat system can make us invincible if you can parry and dodge on orange... (with the armor regen) In darktide there is way more things to manage, i personnally think the idea is good but how they made it need polishement
+ i hate the fact that in rutheless half my operation were just "follow dude with a melta and do nothing all game" it was super boring, i really enjoy the game way more with this limitation + like a lot of people are saying a squad of 3 marine would die in a few minutes in those mission, we are closer to that now and i enjoy it
But it defenitely needs some polishing to not be just frustrating to a lot of player
These are the same devs that put tight ammo restrictions in a game with a class that has no melee weapon. Obviously thinking things through is not their strong suit. Whoever was in charge of this patch should unironically be fired. They are genuinely terrible at their job.
@@zerzo7223 Nope. Everything else on new difficulty is great. More Extremis enemies etc. But tight formation (in RPGs known as fireball formation) needs to go. No tweaking or tinkering. It will not work, it isn't fun and is detrimental to the game. There is too much happening on the screen, too much stuff forcing you to move for your movement to be limited be some barely visible coherency meter.
Even in Vermintide there were 2 kinds of modifications in chaos wastes that would make you stick togather (like carrying purifying torch in level covered with corrupting miasma or torch in darkness). You had very clear indication when you were in and where the boundary is. This is just ass.
This! I really want an endgame added to the game but this aint it
As soon as I saw that entry in the patch notes about not recovering armor if you're not near your teammates, I knew it was going to be awful if they didn't make the distance very generous. Sounds like they didn't, and it is.
Yeah, that's when I knew I wasnt going to even log in to play it until this bs gets fixed. I'm not even going to grind lower levels for weapon xp. I got plenty of other games in my backlog. Might even just play RDR2 again.
Standing on top of each other to complete the new difficulty doesn't create a "sense of pride and accomplishment". It feels like a being forced to clean a bathroom with a toothbrush with R. Lee Ermy over your shoulder emasculating the shit out of you.
🤣
the laziest way to increase difficulty, make enemies hit harder while you are weaker
I mean they only nerfed melta bombs and auspex scan against bosses. The increased difficulty here is ammo management, target prioritization and team cohesion. A lot more to it than your simple inaccurate complaint of what’s going on in this patch lol
I wonder who else do that , ohh way since begining of time of gaming console 😂😂
Enemies seem to have the same HP as Ruthless and hit the same as Ruthless. They are more aggressive and you have less armor, though.
I mean they changed a whole lot here so it’s not just that
@@zacharylopez8362 He's not wrong. Enemies do hit harder and they nerfed armor so we are in fact weaker. The patch basically reverted the previous one so now we're back to having our armor disappear when we get scratched. Only now we can't regen armor as easily as before.
Yeahhhhhhh I just loaded up a game to see if you were exaggerating about tight formation and let me say that was one of the most unfun mechanics I’ve ever had to deal with in a decade of gaming lol
Being punished for the actions of other players should rarely (if ever) be a thing in game mechanics. Being unable to generate armour because a random player moves out of range is lazy game design and absolutely unfun. Scrapping it entirely would be my preference. At worst, add a timer that begins when range is exceeded and enforces the mechanic when it ticks to zero. As the author mentioned, the mechanic forces you to play in suboptimal ways which punish some classes more than others. In a game with only six classes, having a full half of them be preferentially punished compared to the others is awful, especially when theres another mechanic that enforces class diversity.
it like they took Darktide mechanic and made it worse
in Darktide, despite you out of your team cohesive, melee kill still regain armor and some perk "will regain armor when there are no enemies nearby by 8m"
or "regain armor when you are surrounded by enemies within 8m"
in SM2?? good fucking luck surviving
Tight Formation is basically going to invalidate lethal difficulty for people who only play random queue. I haven't gotten to play yet, but I was just thinking about how often my teams get separated without any way to regroup. For example, in the generator defense objective on Inferno, it's super common for one teammate to get caught by a wave on the platform with the ammo crate while the others rush the generator. And you don't have time to clear the platform and then move to the generator, especially if it's one of the far ones.
I dunno, it seems like they could keep it around if they expanded the range to basically cover any given arena. But there are way too many scenarios where doing the right thing or even just making a tiny mistake seems overly punishing for the current implementation.
It's just a terrible idea, artificially adding difficulty.
This was my first thought straight away. Half of the Inferno map sounds like a chore with this change, he'll even at the end setting up the trap like we are supposed to be on the 3 separate platforms watching the swarm deciding which way they come from and which console to switch. So we gonna have to stand together on one console and walk to the switch together if we wanna be able to keep having armor?
I'm certainly positive the Devs have no testing team at this point.
Perks, melee weapons, ranged weapons, feels like nothing was actually went through QA...
@@ArthaxtaDaVince777 Exactly. Difficulty is fine, but arbitrary difficulty through questionable mechanics feels bad more than it provides challenge.
@@Lyonatan Yeah, it almost seems like it's meant to discourage using optional map mechanics that work best when you spread out. Or if it's not meant to, it does so unintentionally. And it's kind of a huge fuck you to anyone who likes playing sniper or heavy at all isn't it?
Just played and yeah it’s annoying. Doable for sure but you feel handcuffed to teammates with the range. Nobody wants to be butt buddies. Even on inferno when you have to hit the button from each platform.
This patch convinced me to take a break from Space Marines 2.
The balance changes reminded me of those problematic sort of Dungeon Masters in DND who get mad if their boss gets beaten too easily, and rather than presenting new and exciting encounters instead opts to nerf/take away all the party's weapons, while buffing the stats of the enemies.
Space Marine 2 is a great game, but whoever's in charge of the balance department are definitely not someone I'd want to play with.
Honestly that really is what the patch notes felt like i havent seen a more accurate comparison...
Not to be that guy, but join super earth where you can destroy hundreds of bugs by yourself where are you can solo entire breaches of bugs by yourself where are you can have a true power fantasy where every single weapon is strong and constantly getting stronger where is the war is ever evolving a new content is being added join the hell divers (please do not find my location grab me by the neck and throw me into the sun. This is a complete joke. Please have mercy on my soul)
@@carlosvicenty-9856 Didn't this exact thing happen to Helldivers 2?
@@VoxAstra-qk4jz yes but they fixed it unlike space marine two This is the exact reason why you should join the hell divers
@@carlosvicenty-9856 My brother in Christ, the patch has been out for less than a day. How long did it take for Arrowhead to fix it?
They should flip tight formations by rewarding instead of punishing. So no down side for doing your job, but give benefits to staying close.
If I wanted darktide mechanics I’d play darktide. Im pretty sure that space marines are basically one man armies so let us (with good enough skill) one v one a hoard with parries, gun strikes, and executions!
Space Marines aren't exactly one man armies - that would be Custodes.
That said diving classees having to NOT DIVE priority targets and just getting wittled down from ranged is just bad gameplay.
The game isn’t exactly lore accurate. If 3 man squads were sent out to fight the battle we fight in this game, they would have died a long time ago.
@@EvgGaar 1 space marine is equal to that of 100-200 guardsmen. so yes,, They indeed are.. A custodes is equal to 100 astartes.
@@EvgGaarSpace marines can be and are one man armies. There are space marines can have crazy feats and strength.
Wrong. This is why lore noobs should keep it to themselves. One warrior is actually slightly/moderately superior to an astartes in combat. If the game was Lore Accurate you'd have died on the first or second mission without MUCH more support than just 3 people
Tight formation is so stupid that I'm now terrified of the future of pve...
I’m with you. Do these people even play their own game?
Someone said they have this in their zombie game. Sounds awful and I’m a Darktide player.
They should have made tight formation regenerate armor quicker, not the only way to regenerate it.
Tight Formation makes playing backline classes like the Sniper harder for no good reason. The whole point of the class is to pick off Majors from a distance and to provide support for downed players... It's literally in the trials. Having to be close to your allies also runs counter to how their ability works, since your dropping aggression and placing back to your teammates, which in a close quarters encounter means you're putting more pressure on your teammates.
I really hope they rework or remove this mechanic.
Sniper... lol. Try assault with both of your teammates playing backliners. You just jump into the horde... and die. lol
This patch makes me feel like none of the devs have been playing the game. Tight formation is completely counter to the games play style
I speak as a Darktide main; this system that Saber has implemented isn’t clunky, it’s detrimental.
Darktide uses Cohesion, which is basically a generic buff that regenerates the armor equivalent when team members are close proximity, and each of the four classes has a perk that can add a bonus per each teammate in coherency, from damage output, to critical chance, even regenerating a grenade.
But Cohesion in Darktide works because it meshes well with the class system, the overall design to player combat, and the fact that it isn’t necessarily critical to success nor failure, but merely increases the chances of surviving a fight.
This mechanic that Saber added stunts the roles of two classes, one of whom is already unfavored because of how it was designed and progresses. How did anyone think this was a good idea to implement without general feedback?
Assault is unplayable on lethal. I say this as someone who has solo’d the hive tyrant on ruthless as assault. I typically try not to be reactionary to balance changes but it seems like virtually everyone is collectively face palming at this patch myself included. At least everyone except the rage baiters it seems.
and glazers
100%. Good luck against two zoanthropes while the bots don't fire a single shot at them and you are getting swarmed in the frontline xD
@@noxiebobo Reddit is full of them. Honestly, half of them are just being contrarians. There's no way they're enjoying this bs.
yeah this patch literally kick Assault and Bulwark player in the balls for being a front line and a distraction for your team. at least Vanguards is pairing well since he have instigator bolter to help with range damage, it ironically the strong bolter lines outside of Bolter sniper rifle and stalker bolt. and his regain HP after execution also a good perk and i wish it build in for every class instead being exclusive to vanguards....like good old Space marines 1
I just completed all operations on lethal as assault but my biggest threat remains to be numerous zoanthropes or trying to play as the assault should be flanking and hitting back lines bc as soon as you do that you’re out of cohesion. Luckily I had teammates so we communicated and was able to push to the center but with randoms or bots forget it
Two corrections/additions:
1. Taking ammo from the ammo crates doesn't consume the same amount of ammo charges from the crate. It's dependant on what percentage of ammo you're replenishing on your weapons. So using the crate often even when you're not completely depleted won't harm the players except for shortening the uptime on their DPS since they waste time holding interact more often.
2. Enraged enemies also take more shots to be interrupted when calling reinforcements and possibly have even more health/take less damage.
A Honda Civic is now a valid unit of measurement. 6:30
It’s America. We’ll use anything but the metric system.
As soon as the mechanics for tight formation were mentioned, my first thought as a Sniper main was, "Well f* me then!"
oh no, now you can only uhhh
cloak every 5 seconds breaking agro entirely and thus circumventing damage taken in the first place
???
tight formations changes basically nothing about sniper
@magiv7573 Play Sniper a lot? How often are you hip-to-hip with a Heavy, Vanguard, Assault, or Bulwark?
@@ginjabr3ad330 you don't need to be hip to hip with your teammates, the effect also has more range than you give it
also
magical tech here you can try.
you can cloak, move towards your teammates, get some armor back, then go away again if you really need to.
I know, it's quite adventurous...
@@magiv7573 So you don't play Sniper. Ok. Opinion noted.
@@ginjabr3ad330 I've maxed all the classes and got all of his weapons to relic tier except the stalker bolt at purple, but aight then.
Let see what these devs are made of. If they apologize for the "Tight Formation" and remove it - big respect. I hope they don't stick to their flawed design decision to save their Egos.
And removing the 5 minute respawn
I want them to rework block weapons because they are shit and not worth pucking. Maybe give them small possibility to parry.
They'd probably back-end the parry window for that too, since they reworked Fencing weapons to front-load the window while keeping the same width as the Balance, because I'm SURE everyone was asking for that. *eye-roll
Overall, it doesn't feel as bad of a nerf as I initially thought. It turns out I was parrying with the perfect timing to the new Fencing stance window, so I basically don't have to change my muscle memory at all while trying to parry.
No need for possibly of a parry just make it so that you can block red hits with proper timing
@@GoToBedSheeva That would be sommething. You mean like a heavy block?
They should make it so that you can block everything including red attacks but only in front of you and it would be fine.
@@GoToBedSheevathat's would be too strong. only thing that makes majoris a little strong is they sometimes have a red attack in between blue attacks. If you could parey the red attacks, majoris would be a joke, especially chaos, if you could parry their fire aoe they would be a joke.
Damn as a solo player this gonna suck huge gigantic balls since 90% of all enemies will focus you and the bots are so random and shit at times you cant even depend on them in ruthless most the time. But fuck it least we got an update.
Yeah at that point the bots are gonna need a MASSIVE buff as if they didnt already need one
Yup, solo Ruthless is already annoying and they just made us even weaker. Lethal sounds like a waste of time solo. Balancing the game without consideration of paying with bots vs people is asinine.
Bro, I suffered so much today I actually thought having the bots was better than randoms. I'm playing assault soloing one lictor, one crawler, and god knows how many warriors, and my ranged team refuses to shoot the zoanthropes. Neither the players nor the bots will shoot at the right targets, so the only difference is, the bots won't die so fast lmao
@@budala1969 Devs should have to personally beat the hardest difficulty at least 50% of the time before shipping a patch like this. A little perspective would go a long way.
8:53 right! This isn't Army of Two, where you're back to back constantly. This is Warhammer, where tactics and positioning are the tabletop foundation.
Be warm and well-fed is the most wholesome RUclips outro I have ever heard
Basically making the game ultimately more infuriating and almost impossible for snipers... Squishy as hell, can't handle hordes, but getting cooked by ranged enemies while not being able to restore armor without running into a situation that is gonna get you killed. Yeah I wish they'd run some of these ideas by the player base before launching. This would have been immediately nullified.
Sniper is still the most OP class in the game wth is this opinion. How the hell is a class able to drop aggro every second "squishy"?
Lasfusil is effectively infinite horde clear, with access to permanent invisibility in the process of lining up gaunts...
Maybe perk issue? if you run headshot damage aura instead of ability recharge, that'd explain a lot of things.
I'll agree with you it's a bit harder to play against Chaos ever since they reduced smaller enemies packs. But that was last patch, not this one.
Dont make me say it 😂
@@ipatchymakouli415 I'm just basing that on what I've heard from this video. I haven't played operations yet since the patch.
@@TheBeardedHam "more infuriating and almost impossible for snipers" make it sound like it was already mildly infuriating pre-patch for you. When it was (and still is) one if not the most broken class.
Why would you even comment that reverse fact, in both past and present; and that even more now that you say you haven't tried?... That's just random negative criticism without basis.
I also really dislike the change to the fencing weapon parry window.
I don't even see why bother with fencing weapons anymore if it's the same window, just showing earlier as a balanced weapon, in that case just take the extra stats from balanced weapons.
I don't see why ppl are overreacting to this, the reason fencing weapons are good in the first place is the fact that it gives u the window to parry "too late" since it always gave frames before the parry window compared to balanced. Like conceptually who the hell is parrying way too far in advanced compared to being "too late"?
the only thing this really changes is the fact that u dont parry like 10 minoris jumping at u in staggered formation and instead parry like 5 of them now
edit: also i dont think this changes weapon choices anyway for chainsaw, hammer (whose fencing variants are better anyway) and combat knife (since the balanced version is sooo much better as well) - no clue about power fist and sword (hate the fist and don't play bullwark)
@@Xeonzs The frames being at the start of the animation is way better because it means you can react to attacks that catch you off guard way faster. It will absolutely save your life when that lictor or warrior attacks you from off screen and you only notice at the last second. The frames being in the middle of the animation mean you literally can't react to stuff that surprises you in time with a balanced weapon. So fencing weapons are still definitely the best melee weapons.
@AlfredBundy what u say basically makes no difference with the patch then. Fencing still let's u have that clutch parry.
I played 300hrs with balanced weapons going from sniper to bulwark to assault.
Fencing was stupidly broken with that parry window and from a gamedesign standpoint basically made standard weapons obsolete because balanced weapons offered nothing, stats differences are arbitrary.
Now Fencing is still helpful for not so skilled players but doesn't make it so that picking a standard weapon feels like a punishment.
So yeah, u can still do that last moment parry on the offscreen ravager, but now u not gonna get around just spamming parry.
@@manhoenguy6104 I find myself parrying in advance to be fair. I'll read a tyrannic warrior turning or moving sometimes as an attack if I'm in melee range. Slight skill issue, and despite that I still haven't had any issues yet with the new system.
I am still having trouble with AI though when I want to play with them. They are still absolutely worthless. Watched my sniper AI teammates miss every single shot against a still neurothrope. "We don't want AI to carry" so the devs make them worthless.
I'm not even sure actual players can carry very effectively since enemies can be so random.
These devs are trying to get around issues like OP AI that done even exist yet. Just make the AI better, if it's OP then tone it down. It's easier to dull a knife than sharpen it.
I agree and have another problem with devs keep fussing around with parry timings every update.
We need to take time adjusting our body to perfect parry but every update they change parry frames forces us to adjust again from the start.
600hr Helldivers 2 Veteran here, this is how it started for us before the 60-day plan. They started nerfing weapons for the sake of build diversity, and made the game worse overall for a long time until it started affecting playercount. I highly recommend voicing your opinions on things before there's no one left to voice opinions. "Fun for the sake of fun" was what this game was about at launch. If they remove the fun, then what is it for?
the game are already on the old path of HD2/D4, the only reason ppl stay playing because of it is fun, and dev are taking it away by nerfing on players and gears, making it a torturing game with no worthy rewards, hardcore players might still enjoy but majority players will just quit the game.
anotherHD2 player here
youre ignoring the fact that there were even more buffs in this patch
also that there is almost 0 reason to not use fencing weapons with the stats everything previously had
not only were the stats of balance and block weapons generally not good enough to warrant using, more consistent parries is just the best thing you can ever ask for as its by far the strongest defensive tool all classes have access to. making fencing a side grade instead of objectively better than balance with the current stat distributions at least is interesting because theres only 1 melee weapon in the game where balance (and block by extension) actually have objectively better stats than fencing. hell id argue that on several weapons, fencing actually does in fact have the best stat spread, completely defeating the balancing aspects of the block types.
Let's not oversell the problem. The only complaint is the tight formation, everything else is a welcome change.
except the changes that may ruin the fun, if fun no more, the game will go downhill very quick, reality is majority players care about the game is enjoyable or not.
This heal nerf is so bad you can't rely on your skill you have to breathe the air coming out of your teammates ass to get any hp back
Yea ain’t gonna lie, I ain’t playing till the tight formation gets taken out.
Anybody else just instantly die out of nowhere? Like full health and armor and the game just decides to down you instantly?
Yep, happened twice today. My health instantly melted to 0 out of nowhere and the bar was about 80% full with 2 armor segments whole
It’s the sniper majoris. Usually you see that little green light on you for a second, but sometimes they can be charging it up on your team or it’s stuck on environment, then when it gets to you it just instantly fires and drops you.
@johndoe-sh6bi sniper has never ever taken more that 60% health of me
Bro this just happened to me on inferno as a bulwark. Before i died i saw like a frag explosion. I was losing my mind on lethal with that long ass timer. Luckily for some reason when i died it dropped the gene seed and i was able to grab it when i respawned. Also, the death didn’t get counted on the end screen? So the game knew it was some BS i had full health and armor.
It’s happened to me twice, one from a ravener attack on bulwark, and another time from the psychic barrage from the demon possessed psycher
I could see how that tight formation mechanic can suck, when you have a Heavy away from the wave delivering the Emperor's heavy support but getting peopered by green projectiles? That's punishing a helpful class from doing their best functions. Good for an all melee team, but ranged? HUGE pain in the ass. It would be better if tight formation helps your armor regenerate 25% faster than normal or get a slow health regen going like the first. I know it's mainly meant for the masochistic players, but there's a huge chunk of normal players out here as well
Completely agree about the issues you raised over tight formation. One thing i would add, which i find just as annoying as the mechanic itself, is how much your screen gets dimmed, and the edges of your fov blurred when you are not in "tight formation".
I hate motion blur in games, and i hate when my brightness setting is constantly changing, and because you have to stay so close for tight formation, any normal run will see you constantly having this dim/clear/dim/clear cycle which i find very annoying.
Thats what that was. Wow thats annoying i was curious about that
@@jeffs3119 Yeah at first I thought my settings had reverted to default because of the patch. It's even worse when you have the blood splatter from being low health too.
Wow. That alone sounds painful. I’m sensitive to stuff like that too.
Not to mention, having to keep an eye on that stupid bar on the bottom of the screen and it doesn’t even change color when you are 100% in tight formation.
What a terrible feature this is.
Here before everyone says lethal is supposed to be hard and you can't beat it because you suck.
I love a good challenge.. never minded dying in ruthless till I got good..but lethal is a bit too much tbh
@@richardgibson2158 I swear the people who say this are the ones with a constant 3 man of people they can play with for communication or are the people speed running and rolling their way through maps like that’s how you’re meant to play.
When you are just with randoms, and especially those who don’t get on mics it is definitely different.
Lethal is PERFECT. Makes you work together as a squad. Those lone wolf types are gonna get punished
You just suck? Lmao
@@jo_ken if you regularly play with randos you should probably go make some friends instead
Tight formation = major nerf to sniper class. Hope the Devs remove this change ASAP.
they did the darktide thing except it heavily punishes people for being good.
And rewards the people that try to solo speedrun in public operations.
""Being good" Running off ahead and leaving the team behind.
Welp... that's why it is called LETHAL
@@hoboryan3455yeah, as long as they don’t go down and they kill stuff, yeah, they’re good
@@hoboryan3455 "being good" is actually playing normally and playing well in the correct places, while the dumbs run off.
There is an extra problem: if you are the last man standing, you can't recover armor in any way (I haven't tested armor boost from boxes).
With the 5 min respawn timer, its almost impossible to recover, or a 5 minute waiting game if your partners died at the end of the fight, and you want to play it safe.
Okay as someone who dont play with friends, tight formation is a death sentence to my online SM2 career, ruthless was already significantly more enjoyable with bots instead of players...
Also I was expecting them to actually just throw more and faster majoris on us but make them more fragile.
Enemy is more lethal, but so we are. This new difficulty was a big ooopsie, should have had let it cook more.
I completely agree with you.
The only thing that bothers me in this update is the tether mechanic.
Not only does it ruin class identity as you mentioned but if both teammates fully go down you just....don't get armour?! fuck me I guess for surviving. Then there's operations that require you to separate for objective purposes like the helldrake fight for example. It just doesn't fit.
I don't mind the mechanic itself if it was a straight up melee game, or if it worked where it gave you a BONUS to melee damage when you are close rather than nerfing armour. As it stands it just doesn't fit this game at all.
Facing 4 Lictors while Titus said the lictor hunt alone lol
Other difficulty: player spam everything on Tyranids and Chaos
Lethal difficulty: Tyranids and Chaos spam everything on players
B R U H
There is another problem - NO REWARDS
There are tons of rewards 90% just don't work right now...
A campaign badge for every mission, power sword skin for termination, helm for all 7. I haven't seen a list but those are the knes i know of.
Could've sworn there is a new helmet for every class.
@@pyerack its the same helm, universal. It is mostly trash other than distinguishing that youve beaten all 7 on lethal..
Then people would complain that the cool stuff would be blocked by high difficulty. I'm fine with the survivor helmet, that is interresting only for the one that wants a challenge.
Enraged ennemies can't be stunned. It's even a problem because heavy plasma shots will not break guard or interupt reinforcement calls.
Only had a chance to do two Lethal runs before work. I agree on Tight Formation. Made it very difficult to be Vanguard with a team that had Bolter carrying Heavy and Tactical.
Got all the way to the end of Sword of Atreus, charged the ship to 100% and died to two terminators before anyone could hit the button to win.
Just *crushing* lol.
You did all you could brother, remember that
It should be that hard tho, I'm fine with it.
Bro this was actually me before lol same exact death scenario while playing the same type of squad.
Make the tight formation a buff. Also if you're the only one alive tight formation is completely inactive. So even if you're play perfectly as the last alive you don't get any heals. You just have to hide or die.
Maybe keep it as is but instead of not letting you heal at all. Make it so that you can only regen hp with executions and gun crits. There just needs to be SOME survivability for when you're the last alive.
@@xLordxMarsx This is true, When the other 2 are dead it should not be a death sentence
You know how in D2 there's those rotating modifiers? If the Tight Formation thing was like a rotator that would sometimes appear I could see that being interesting to force players into maybe a class they don't play as much, or to have to problem solve on the fly. Especially like, if it showed up during certain points. Like oh crap, 40% chance in x fight that this modifier pops up, so now your whole team needs to adjust how they've been playing so far to account for this.
Sounds like a bummer though, because I totally get what you're saying about punishing correct decision making, that would bug me if I was normally a class that would need to stay back like a sniper or a heavy off to the side.
The tight formation single handedly makes it not fun. I’ve completed all operation on lethal and my biggest complaint is strictly that. Maybe some rng issues where you’re fighting a carnifax, 2 zoanthropes, with a ravener is pretty bad but other than that I feel like with the removal of the tight formation it wouldn’t be an issue. That and the random instant deaths; one from ascension perk still, the other from just heart attack I guess. Oh and the crashing that’s annoying
Completely agree with what you said . Love the difficulty but this new system sucks
Did this tight formation mechanic even get play tested? Honestly a baffling addition
The fencing nerf is probably the most frustrating thing for me
They also broke the contested health banner perk for bulwark
Excellent overview of the new difficulty, thank you. I agree with you on the new team mechanic and feel that directly and negatively impacts the design of the classes and how they are meant to compliment each other.
An alternative to the new mechanic would be to turn that into a buff or de-buff depending on distance. If the team is close together they could get an armor recharge time decrease making it beneficial to be close to each other. Conversely, if the team spreads out perhaps the de-buff means you take more damage. Something along those lines would be fun and keep the class design intent where it should be.
❤Lethal difficulty is what I expected it to be.
Termination Ops level design is properly for 5-man combat squad. Enemy numbers and buff make it more challenging.
I haven't had to parry 10+ times in 30 s for a while, quite refreshing.
My chainsword should have its legendary status.😂
✅️Melee weapon feels more powerful, and responsive.
❌️ Tight formation penalty is an interpretation of Unit Coherency off the tabletop, but rather than a buff if you stay close proximity, instead you get a debuff.
This not working for core gameplay mechanics. Tight formation should be a buff to compensate for increase in difficulty. Perhaps a - delay for armor restore.
I cant believe this actually made it in.
I have lost so much respect for this dev team holy fuck
bro stop crying, people have asked for a harder difficulty and when they finally give you one, you can’t beat it and start complaining. this dev team has put in so much effort to try to make this game as fun as possible so cut them some slack.
@@Azurezzzzxzxz Agreed. The amount of crying babies in these comment sections is pathetic. Not everyone can be the best gamer, people have to accept that, but they can't. They need every mode to be casual and easy or they cry and cry till mommy feeds them from a spoon.
God I'm sick of this 'Fanbase'. Completed a Lethal mission earlier with randoms, people crying it's impossible, sorry to tell you this, but it is possible, very possible.
@@tyrbaan7295if I wanted to be on a leash like a dog I’d paint myself as a space wolf
Relax dude holy.
@@BOB-sq7id I'll relax when people stop hating entire dev teams because they are bad at game bro. I've seen people literally threatening the dev team. It's beyond unacceptable to literally threaten them, accuse them of hating their fanbase and rally others to despise them, simply because they aren't very good at a singular difficulty.
this "tight formation" mechanic is so awful. I'm leaving until it is removed.
I agree with your stance 100%. I think Lethal is solid, except for the tight formation mechanic! Staying stacked together to recover armor charges really goes against some of the classes play styles
I haven’t played the new update yet, but as an Assault main, i am very concerned about the tight formation mechanic. I hope it either goes away or has a much bigger range so the more aggressive classes can play their part in the squad
As someone who played one match of Lethal on the new Op with Assault, it's crippling. I used my jump pack on some enemies, got separated from the team, couldn't regain armour and got two-tapped by a sniper.
I’m not sure yet but I think we can still regen armor on gunstrikes because of our best perk and also minor parries
@mr.god.complex Vanguard said in the video those perks are now basically useless on Lethal
@@mr.god.complexyou CAN still regenerate armor on gun strikes. However. Being an assault means being mobile and waiting to ambush the enemy, this usually puts you at a bit of distance with your teammates, so if you’re out of range when you gun strike, no armor regen on gun strikes. It’s what got me killed my last lethal run just a little while ago.
@@ChuteMi-df2es that’s my concern because i always just jump in and spam ground pound and charged attacks to give some breathing room to my team, but i am concerned that i will get destroyed if i play that aggro
I've only played a few missions on Lethal, and I definitely agree with the problem - I play Heavy, while my friend loves playing Vanguard. I sit playing overwatch with the heavy bolter cutting down the ranged Majoris while he keeps the melee and Minoris enemies off me. The tether almost forces me to play with the Melta, and I have worked myself away from playing the crutch that was that weapon since hitting 25 and unlocking everything on Heavy. Heavy Plasma does play a little better for close encounters, but only because you can fire at your feet to clear Minoris but that means you burn through the limited ammo a lot faster.
I feel like everyone is gonna start playing the bulwark, assault and vanguard team until the devs change the tight formation mechanic
Yup thats my other issue with the mechanic. And its annoying already saw a bunch of assaults struggling with the mechanic cuz one wittle jump is too far.
Contested health flag perk for bulwark doesn’t do anything now
Nah I think Tactical (specifically with grenade launcher) is gonna be played more than anything. Vanguard and assault players are gonna get frustrated cause sticking that close to the team is not what they do normally.
yeah, squads are gonna need to break down into either all melee or all ranged, and if its all ranged then ammo is likely gonna be a serious issue, but all melee is gonna be getting hammered by ranged enemies and unable to split off and deal with them. so idk, at best this mechanic kills team diversity.
I was already frustrated by not being able to have multiple of the same class on a squad, forcing me to change class even more is gonna make this difficulty impossible to play with randos.
For anybody who can't wait until S4 for Horde mode: If you play solo or with two friends (or people you convince to do this) and just hang around in one area then infinite enemy waves will spawn 😗 With this mechanic in mind, I truly don't understand why this game doesn't have (at a bare minimum) a basic Horde mode, basically like some of the final stages of operations.
NEVER take away from the player. ALWAYS give incentive to the player.
game design 101
The tether mechanic just kills any desire to be melee or sniper on lethal. Instead of making the enemies chunkier, hit harder, and making the player weaker, they should have just stuck with removing the extremis spawn cap like they did, but then add random modifiers in that change the outcome of the mission. Increased range enemy spawns, but they do 5% less damage. Or no terminus enemies spawn, but every extremis spawn is a zoenthrope/sorcerer. Only majoris enemies spawn in higher numbers with more health, but more resource spawns. It would make lethal difficult but more fun and adding replayability.
It is ok to face 3 extremis and a boss at the same time
It is ok the higher lethal difficulty range enemy hit harder
It is ok the wave is much larger
It is ok you nerf the armor even it is unnecessary because the mob hit much harder now
But THIS BULLSHIT TEAM SYSTEM IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!! Cancel it immediately! I mean immediately!!!
True! I prefer they add more extremix enemies than adding the formation mechanic, delete that mechanic and add 6 lictors in a fight would be fun :D
Hmm what an odd choice for direct formation maybe they should give give a half boost to armor with it instead of completely removing it
It's my opinion that this new difficulty is made for premade groups. The new mechanic is about risk management where armor/hp is now a resource. Your gonna have to get comfortable with losing it and being able to beat challenges on a pixel of life. This difficulty is not for the majority who play the game, including those who like harder difficulties. That's likely the reason it only unlocks one helmet cosmetic. It is what it is.
The game already implicitly punished you by failing to maintain formation (more likely to get surrounded, less able to benefit from teammates abilities). How many times have pugs failed because someone was running off on their own, triggering sentries, not helping with the objective etc.
Adding a mechanic that arbitrarily harms you on top of this wasn’t needed.
Lol the game was piss easy before it didnt punish you. Worse thing that could happen was like 4 tyranid warriors on ruthless. If you have 2 braincells and just a modicum of game sense you could solo ruthless with grey weapons
@@MrHappyBoomer ok tough guy. Some of us find ruthless plenty difficult.
Kinda like and understand the Coherency-like (as in Darktide) mechanic, or at least the teamplay driven intention behind it, though i don't like that it TAKES away the ability to gain armor rather than just giving a bonus potential not tied to the health mechanics already established. No need to take away, it should be a bonus rather than a penalty.
Tight formation basically says you lose if you are last man standing…bad design.
100% agree - what were the Designers thinking? Do they even know how to play the classes properly?!?
Man if you're getting cooked with Bul/Tac/Sniper and optimal setups, the rest of us are eff'd. RIP Assault lol. We'll probably just skip Lethal like we did Cata on VT2, if you don't get any tangible rewards from it other than paint, we're good. Gives the players who thrive on ball-ache difficulty something to play on and the casuals can have fun still too.
I love how they made Vanguard just entirely useless in Lethal.
Oh, see that venom canon Tyranid across the Horde at the other side of the room? Remember how Vanguard was specifically designed to deal with such threats? Yeah, can't do that anymore, sorry.
Imagine making a entire class about picking off priority targets fast, and then add a modifier that heavily punishes them (and effectively kills them) for doing the job they were designed to do.
@@CedricBassman There's no way the devs keep this as it is. No way. I'd legitimately be shocked with the backlash it's getting. But I've seen some crazy things in games over the years.
@@sarkmangaming8164they care to much about the game to let something as class killing as that go. They HAVE to do something. Also if they want anyone actually touching lethal they need better rewards. More xp and some money with skins at the end is such a piss poor reward for testing your skills and patience for 30 minutes plus. I’ll be patient since this is introduction of lethal but it’s getting some backlash and for good reason
@@CedricBassman sniper also useless. So many perks required distancing. What were they thinking?? Are they even playing the game?
@@CedricBassmanas a vangaurd main 1 of the sig perks is heal on exe so u still can
Neurothrone boss spawns at the staircase in Operation 7, there's barely any places to Dodge his aoe attacks
Lictors used to hunt alone, and then the hivemind pulled a Thanos.
How dumb can you be to create a game with different classes that have different purposes then negate all your hard work and thought into making those classes by forcing the players to hold hands instead of doing what they are suppose to do
As someone once said regarding HD2. Adding more difficulty then calling it balancing is not balancing.
It’s a higher difficulty setting though? It’s not like the changes are made to the existing difficulties like HD2 did.
@@samhill7817 They did change Substantial and Ruthless tho
@@polskipolak9073 wait I have only played the new difficulty, in that case I apologise I was mistaken.
That seems like an odd choice a d in that case definitely agree it should be reversed at least on the lower difficulties
Thats not true in a pve game though???
if a balancing issue goes "players are too bulky" then increasing enemy damage or reducing player defenses effectively complete the same job of balancing.
This is just an outright incorrect statement you're positing
@@magiv7573 I'm legitimately not incorrect. These changes make zero sense. Ontop of that no one asked for them. The game was by far not easy. One minor fuck up can derail the entire run. Armor being reduced makes zero sense because enemies still can eat through your armor. Weapons still feel weak.
On top of this enraged enemies seem not properly tuned and very rushed, The visual is a red dot aroudn their head with 0 effects and they refused to get staggered. Killing a devourer warrior for it to randomly get enraged when it was almost dead and then it 3 shot me at 2 armour and 50% hp...
Edit: Also I fully agree with the video. My thought before playing was "Close bettter be 1 side of the hive tyrant arena to the other side". If it is this close then just have like 5-10% less I frames during parry/dodge when ur to far away from your allies.
This whole update is a big bullshit. They fucked up a perfect game. Just like in HD2.....
In Darktide, there is a mechanic called "Coherency". The difference between it and "Tight Formation" is that it gives you buffs for sticking together, instead of nerfing your for not sticking together.
I think changing "Tight Formation" to be more like "Coherency"would pretty much fix every problem with the new difficulty.
Sniper :hey dev, why you making me look bad
Lethal basically negates having short, mid, and long range all playing together well. It reminds me of Togetherness in Destiny 2, which is an automatic no go for me. Also 10 year old me giggled at “dingledongle.”
Take tight formation out completely. It's a garbage mechanic and cannot be tweaked enough to be good. End of discussion.
How many times does the ammo box refill for you?
Loving the coverage! Keep it up TV!
Thanks! Will do!
I’m glad you pointed this out, I didn’t like the distance mechanic for this exact reason. It’s frustrating especially since the range is so unforgiving
Completely agree. Lethal is nearly unplayable with a random squad unless you have the right class/team composition
As it should be