Saguenay: a St. Lawrence Iroquoian Tale of Vikings?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 24 май 2019
- The Vinland Sagas are stories of Viking journeys made to a land called Vinland around 1000AD. They were first written down in Iceland in the 13th century and were based on oral stories passed down over the centuries. To most scholars of the 19th century the sagas were widely assumed to be a work of fiction. It was only in the 20th century that serious consideration was given to verifying them as factual accounts. The result of this research was the discovery of a Viking site in Newfoundland in the 1960s. But vikings were not the only characters in the sagas. The sagas tell of a people called Skraelings, the indigenous people of Vinland, who the Vikings traded with and warred against. If Vinland is somewhere in present day Canada then the Skraelings were Native Americans possibly Beothuk or St. Lawrence Iroquois.
So what about Native American oral traditions of encountering Viking visitors?
Do any exist?
In this film we will examine this question through the journals of Jaques Cartier.
Having worked in the mining industry for 35 years and spending 20 years of that time mining copper I am quite familiar with the copper mines of not only Michigan but several areas of the upper midwest. It is interesting to note that with modern technology the copper from those mines has been traced to many locations throughout the world, including Europe, Central America and most notably Egypt. This is not recently mined copper but copper that was mined centuries ago. It is truly astounding to think that man had the ability to transport copper such a long distance and so long ago. What do we really know about history? Not much it seems.
What is used to determine where a piece of metal came from, is based on "isotopic analysis", that is different "versions" of elements (varying amounts of neutrons in the atoms' nucleus, if you must know). Several different locations can have the same isotopic "fingerprint", depending on the local bedrock. That doesn't mean metals were traded from Europe, Central America or Egypt (!) to North America, which is VERY unlikely... "Occam's Razor"
@@AreHan1991 then explain the cocaine leaf in Tutankhamens tomb? Or how before Europeans brought smoll pox there were millions of native Americans with a civilization!?
@@AreHan1991 I bet you believe we killed all the mammoths by hunting too lol OCAM! How many mammoth Burger's a day per person times the many other species of mega fauna that went extinct after the great flood yungar drayas impact!!! Humans come from Africa but Africa still has its mega fauna???? Just admit you don't know everything! That's what real science is about! Finding answers not making ones up! So much history that is yet undiscovered!
Thankfully this is the time when humanity will remember its true history and everything will come forward into the light!
@@roscoe4092 Will we? When a solar flare wipes out our electricity grid we'll just have the books left and after a couple of thousand years they too will be gone. Then it will be back to legends and stories of how the heroes of the old time lived for centuries and flew through the air in great silver birds.
If only they had caught that one legged man ... he could've explained everything but alas ... he was too swift afoot.
It sounds like a story that the Norse Party told after the fact to explain the death of one of their people. The truth was, the son of the boss was such a total pain in the ass to everyone on the trip that for the good of the group they decided to dispatch him.
So what you're saying is.. this theory doesn't have two legs to stand on?
Trouble is afoot.
Okay I'm done.
Now, don't tell this where the term "Bigfoot" originated.
I wonder if, like the "one armed" man, he framed someone else for the murder he committed?
Dance with a one legged woman.
Vikings didn't differentiate between native americans and inuits. Why both where called Skrælinger. The word Skræling comes from the norrønt (old norse) skrâ, which means skin. They may have called them skrælinger because they wore animal hides as clothing, while norsemen mostly wore wool clothing. The word itself, has mostly survived, although having a slightly different meaning nowadays. Skræl in danish means peel, like the peel of an orange or apple. To peel something is called "at skrælle". Skræling would simply translate to "people of the hide" As the ending -ing usually denounces an action, origin or occupation in the norse languages. Also why Viking doesn't translate to pirate or marauder as some modern day interpreters would have people believe. Vik (or vig in danish) stems from the norrønt "wick" which means small bay or inlet situated along our many fjords. The pronounciation of viking is not vi-king but vik-ing. And simply means "the people from the fjords"
Absolutely, vik is bay. Also in dutch wijk, prounounced vik (danish), week (english).
This murky slice of human history is quite interesting to me. I appreciate your work on it.
No.kidding.
Goes further, when Noah's sons made the nations people's that are now...
Excavation of L'Anse aux Meadows ,Newfoundland viking site found Butternuts shells. Which only grows in Ontario, Quebe ,New Brunswick and parts of the U.S.A. The boys travelled far and beyond.
but 5 different First Nations harvested on Newfoundland, and the Maliseet and Miigmaw would have brought butternuts up from New Brunswick as travel foods. We know that at least one group of FN people found the Vikings at L'Anse Aux Medeaux, because there was a skirmish and the Vikings called the FN people "shraelings".
@@mirandaaskew The vikings also had conflict with the Inuit in Greenland whom they called shraelings. I thought that the Mi'kmaq occupied the Isle of Newfoundland just after 1760,s . The excavations done on longhouses and fire pits within came up with these artifacts plus slag iron I believe and small pieces of copper and brass pin.
Crurent are very surprising. Remember the Rubber duck experiment. I need more then one butternnut to truly beleive. But its a clue
Native Americans traded extensively so the presence of butternuts in L'Anse aux Meadows doesn't necessarily mean the Vikings traveled further south. Based upon what we know of them, it seems likely they did, but I don't think we have actual proof thus far. Similarly, the fact that a Norse coin was found in Maine doesn't necessarily mean the Norse were there. Such a thing would very likely have been traded from hand-to-hand among Natives and easily could have found its way to Maine. I've long believed that ancient peoples traveled much more extensively than modern historians give them credit for and we have strong evidence for very extensive trade networks in North America long before Columbus or even the Vikings.
@@itsapittie Yes, probably ancient Maritime Archaic Natives who used wooden boats to navigate coastal oceans. I don,t believe modern natives would travel to the bleak lands of L'Anse aux Meadows with few trees and bog land. Then to be in conflict with Inuit people in which Viking explorers where. Who knows though , such little evidence this time phase.
I’ve always though that we ignore the stories from the natives of Americas and the fact that they said they had been visited by white skinned “gods” who were bearded and tall men who came to them on ships and said they would return but never did. These are the things they told the very first recorded European explorers in the 15th century. I think they were the Vikings. I think they sailed coastlines all over more than a millennium ago. There is a native tribe of Virginia who told of a story of a tribe of other natives that had lived nearby them but were very fearsome and violent but also very tall. They buried their dead in mounds and in recent history scientists dug up some remains and found through DNA testing that they were not of Asian descent as is the common tale of human migration but belonged to a haplogroup endemic only to Scandinavia. So… you tell me.
going need to see your sources on that one, friend.
It is possible that the unexplained epidemic in the 1720s that wiped out many tribes between Chesapeake Bay and the Saint Lawrence River, East of the Appalachians, destroyed all of their oral history referring to vikings
The Beaver Wars starting in the 1640's also destroyed many lives and probably a lot of knowledge with it
Unexplained epidemic that contained lead, alcohol and contaminated blankets...
@@yannikoloff7659 The contaminated blankets idea has run around on the rocks of logic. The understanding that disease was transmitted through germs was not known in that era, much less knowledge of how to safely transport said infected blankets without getting sick yourself.
@@JRandallS To the point that common french people barely had access to fruits, because they were said to be medicine. People didn't wash because they taught it was protecting them from disease...
@@yannikoloff7659 here we go again with pseudo-history.
As I was listening to this video, it occurred to me that the place name of Saginaw, Michigan (on the western shore of Lake Huron) might be related to Saguenay somehow. The French went all over what became the state of Michigan, recording indigenous place names as they heard them; and the Upper Peninsula was rich in iron and copper, which may have been mined by early people and transported south through the Great Lakes seaway.
Saginaw comes from Ojibway - Saguenay/Sanguenais comes from Innu (a/k/a Montagnaise - not to be confused with the Inuit).
Thankfully, the Native American languages and their grammars survive, so we don’t have to take a Frenchman’s attempt at transliteration at face value…
That said I see no reason there couldn’t have been an island “kingdom” focused on trade in Lake Huron. I also think it’s hella racist and presumptuous to think “Saguenay”-wherever it was-was a successor to the Norse colony, rather than a Native American polity.
I got the same impression. Considering that the Anishinabe (Ojibwe) once lived on the east coast and then migrated about 1000 years ago to the region of the upper Midwest. (Look up Seven Fires prophecy which is what prompted them to move.) Many place names are given by newcomers based on where they came from. For example, German immigrants named New Ulm and New Trier in Minnesota. There are cities in Germany - Ulm and Trier. Why wouldn't the Anishinabe do the same when they moved? This would be for a sense of identity and community in a new place. Languages/dialects don't stay static. They evolve over time. English we speak today isn't the same as was spoken 1000 years ago. The same would be true for the language spoken by the Ojibwe. Pronunciations, words, phrases, all evolve. Could the pronunciation of Saguenay change to Saginaw - even the spelling? Most definitely!
@@brendamartini2165
Two separate languages. Both words have different roots. Saginaw - Ojibwa 'sakininong' - land of the Sauk (as in Sauk and Fox tribe). Saguney/Saguenais is from Innu (Montagnais) "sakinip" and means "where water flows out".
American Indian place names are very topnymic - they describe the general area or a specific feature of a place. Names just aren't carried from place to place like with European names (i.e. Lubec, ME named for Lübeck, Germany).
@@kavikv.d.hexenholtz3474 Thanks for the great background. Interestingly, I have French Canadian roots in Saguenay and also lived right off of the Sauk Trail in the Chicago suburbs.
I live in Saguenay and was born here. Really appreciate the video and didn’t know about those stories!
what ethnicity are you?
Do you have one leg?
@@jonathanjessee8357 sure
@@masterzy_44 lol you're a good sport
@@masterzy_44 As you can see we still have not controlled ourselves. What oral history has been passed down to you or are you new to area. There is just so much lost history. WE are all looking for a connection. Do you have one foot?? Really? like the other fellow said : Thanks for being a good sport. I would love to tell you , I am above saying such things but have to admit made me smile. I hope it made you smile too.
Between 995- 1000 A.D is the best I can do on the year tracing back the genealogy of Erik the Reds Saga and the tale of his son's Thorvald and Leif. Considering Leif served Olaf Trygvaysson and it doesn't specify when Leif left Olaf's company. (Olaf didn't serve long) The first Norseman sailing close enough to see the American coast was Bjarni Erolfsson. Leif made fun of him saying. "You mean to tell me, you discovered a new land and didn't step foot on it?! The same will not be said of me." The following summer Leif and his brother Thorvald set sail. Leif described a lifeless sea. (The great lakes of Michigan have no wake. just my theory) Thorvald, was shot by an Indian with one leg in the armpit. As they pursued the man and his wife they said they saw them disappear into the turf. They finally found the one legged indian after a day or so of searching. They had their home in the ground. They killed the two adults and took the children. Thorolf knew that he would die from the arrow. He spoke, 'Fat paunch that was. We've found a land of fine resources, though we'll hardly enjoy much of them." He bleed to death and was buried in North American soil. His grave has yet to be found. The two children that belonged to the man and women that shot Thorvald, were taken as slaves. When they knew how to speak Norse fluently. They told their owners that large ships with giant banners and men wearing white would come and take them.
This leaves a huge mystery into who these previous visitors were. Although Leif and his companions sailed there nearly 500 years before Columbus. They still were not the first. But the saga is fascinating none the less.
-The icelandic sagas.
Saga of Erik the Red.
that almost sounds like the Romans giant banners and wearing white
@@goatfarmmb well, the Romans at the time relied heavily on trade in the Mediterranean. With the "defensive" war fronts the Romans had very little time for exploration. The best guess I have is either the Spaniards or the Chinese. The Chinese were the earliest recorded maps of Antarctica known to date. The Americas was also depicted. Much like the Norse, the Chinese passed info through oral tradition and much of what was done and discovered was not recorded until much later. The Spanish however, much like Rome. The Spaniards adopted the Roman Catholic way and as a result recorded their findings and adventures with much more accuracy.
This is the stuff I wanted to hear about in history class. All my questions could have been answered by a 10 minute video instead of years listening to the incessant drone of text book repetition. Not just Canadian kids but youngsters everywhere need to be allowed to question the facts. Critical thinking is beneficial to society.
I think you're confusing speculative musing with critical thinking
A lot of "speculative musings" are passing for political truths these days. Based on a few inscribed stones, believing that the Vikings made it far into what is now Canada and the US is popular, but those stones are fairly likely to be19th century forgeries
I am from Saguenay and I've never heard about Viking presence, but it is very possible thay they went up the St-Laurent river to the Saguenay river a long time ago. It is called a kingdom because when the settlers came, they saw it was so beautiful they were speechless. You have to see it to believe it
il parle clairement de l'île près de alma
Hunt territoriy for the hurons and the algonquians......
@RakshannKalaratri That’s… not a reason to call something a “kingdom”.🙄🤦♂️🤷♂️👎
@@robertogiovanelli1709 ^*Huron, not hurons ^*Algonquin, not algonquians 🙄🤦♂️
@@spanqueluv9er
👍👌. Thankyou
Since Cartier's written log was 470 years closer to the time of the vikings than we are, the events he recorded would weigh heavier historically than oral traditions of centuries later.
FALSE. There is zero evidence that pre-written Oral-Traditions dating back hundreds or even thousands of years are any less accurate than written records -- pre-Roman Celtic, pre-Roman Germanic and pre-Columbian Native American societies that didn't have writing and didn't know writing existed spent upwards of 20 years learning the secrets and memorizing the tales and passing them from one story teller or one shaman or one Druid to the next .. the stories were memorized word for word and changed very little over multiple generations - no different than written writing, which changes ever so slightly with each new copy but overall keeps the core story consistent .. I have absolutely no problem trusting what a Native American or Celtic Druid tells me about their People's Oral Past -- and I have listened to dozens of [numbering probably well over a hundred] Native American Shamans and Spiritual Elders and Grandfathers over the last 40 years, from nearly every Native American Tribe still in existence, and a few [real] Druids [men and women who actually invest in the 20+ years of Real Druidic Training and can trace their Druidic training back through, generation after generation, a thousand years], not the bullshit New Age "Druids" who go to some bullshit fake "druid training" class for 9 months, or two years, or whatever the fuck bullshit "feel good" "training" session their given, yabble on about "magical" oak tree names, and "magical" ogham writing, and bow down and worship "magical" oak tress and "magical" celtic goddesses and "magical" celtic music, get a fancy paper certificate that's printed out by the thousands and then prance around in their white robes and beards and "moon-star" hat, pretending to be Merlin the Magician at "magical" "druid" festivals ..
@@bradhartliep879 I am speaking of traditional historical practice. Of course now it is fashionable to discount the authenticity of European explorers' observations and journals.
The sagas were written down before Cartier wrote
@@christianfrommuslim Because capitalism ruled the day. Not like today. Lol
@@gfkgfk7178 You're living in the most capitalist era ever and you're saying capitalism doesn't rule our day?
An Inuit in a kayak might seem like a one footed being.
or it was just a story.
Know what else might seem like a one-footed being?
A one-footed being.
@@christopherderrah3294 yes, just a story told by two different people’s that also matches with many of the accounts told by other tribes.
But clearly they didn’t understand the area they lived in and made everything up, except for the things that make sense to people. 🐒
I saw a two headed moose at 300 meters, then later saw a on moose with 6 legs at 200 mettre finaly it was two moose with 4 legs each. Optical illusion.
But you cannot hop across dry land with a kayak and out run men on foot.
There was a Viking spearhead found on the southern shore of Lake Ontario.
It would of been prized and could of from inter Indian trade traveled there after many decades
And Celtic mooring stone near Port Huron, MI.
There could be more evidence not yet found of early settlers from the east in the vast wilderness of this continent.
Vinland means "the land of meadow" on old norse,and its fascinating that the word 'vin' is so old,that when Iceland got inhabitated ca 870,the 'vin' word were out of use and long time forgotten. Greetings from Norway😀
not correct. Greetings from Iceland
Irish monks got there long before the vikings
@@dannyboy5517 yes that's the theory but thay never left any clues about there stay the only reason we know of this I the place names whit papa in them. I still believe thay were here and there are even stories of Irish monks go to America
Correct! To those who say it's not, it is.
Re
Très intéressant ! J'habite au Saguenay !
i live in saguenay and the place is so big with dense forest, maybe someday we will find something.....
Salut je suis de Chicoutimi. Bizarre qu il faille connaître l anglais pour apprendre des choses sur ça propre région. J avais honnêtement jamais entendu parler de celle là. Very interesting. Lol
@Peter Lorimer : Canada Club
Thank God for these ancient explorers attempts and good notes for us now
You missed out on the striking Norse nature of the name. If the original pronunciation was not construed by transliteration, Saguenay fits perfectly into other Norse island-names such as Guernsey, Orkney and Jersey. The key is the ending - ey, like in today's Norwegian -øy. It would be too wild to speculate on the beginning of the name, but the ending is as striking as the geographic proximities.
From Wikipedia: The name "Guernsey", as well as that of neighbouring "Jersey", is of Old Norse origin. The second element of each word, "-ey", is the Old Norse for "island",[4] while the original root, "guern(s)", is of uncertain origin and meaning, possibly deriving from either a personal name such as Grani or Warinn, or from gron, meaning pine tree.
Sagaøy? From saga? (Btw there is also a tale of one branch of Lakotas being tall and pale and having a similar history)
That's really interesting I didn't know that about the channel islands. I love etymology and place name meanings and origins.
I live in a part of Yorkshire that was heavily settled by the Danes and many Danish place names end in -by , (a farmstead or similar) the first part of the name is usually the name of the landowner like you mentioned.
Grimsby is my favourite, in this instance it was named after a viking called Grim or possibly it's one of the many names of Odin. I guess where I'm from he could have been called Denis? - Denby Dale
As a Norwegian l must say that of course we chose to find and inhabit Newfoundland, of course we bloody did. Florida and the Bahamas were just a few weeks sailing away but oh no, let's find yet another barren wind-blown frozen hell-hole and happily call that home. Good grief.
"They' say the Norse established L'Anse-aux-Meadows because of the timber there. They must have taken it all, cause there ain't no timber there now...
And then there's the naming of Greenland.
The saga of the one legged men reminds me much more of a veterans camp. Maybe they left disabled people behind. Can u imagine a one legged man on a rough seajourney with a sailing or rowing boat in active service? Not possible. This would also explain the clothes made of wool. And the one legged men did not use their legs for sheltering against the sun, complete nonsense if u have trees and bushes around u and it is NOT the desert .... but it reminds me of Yoga, stretching, caring for their disabled leg so to speak. Its a yoga pose which we see in the picture.
Cyopods were in C.S. Lewis's book, "Voyage of the Dawn Treader". He was vastly studied in Medieval culture.
It would be interesting to ask Innus, the natives who have lived in the Saguenay région for generations, ro see what kind of stories they have on the matter.The Saguenay river must have been spectacular for viiking travelers because of its astounding similarities with Norwegian coast.
Absolutely fascinating... Thank you, Mike
The Iroqouis longhouse, their custom to solve issues peacefully in a big meeting counsel bring similarities with the Viking culture.
Excellent video! I love the tone, narration, imagery, and storytelling style.
This is why Scandinavian people laugh when Columbus is celebrated for being the first to explore this continent from the European continent.
I laugh at this too!
They are too cold to laugh.
@@HookMann88 Swedish guy here, I have a problem with laughing waaay too easily.
@@johnlastname8752 there were no swedish vikings
Also chinese and turks laughed :D
Interesting, well balanced and well narrated.
Very interesting Video. I enjoyed it Emencly. The Stories and the Wilderness as well as the Maps . It's all well done.😁
It's informative and thought provoking that's for sure. I subscribed after watching.👍🏻
Im from and still live in Saguenay!! Always knew within myself that we are close to viking in some ways!! 🤘
You also have to take into account that the French attempted a few different times, unsuccessfully, to create colonies in the area before Quebec was founded- including, at least, one in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, & we still don't know what happened to them. The second term that began with an a- Natives in that region actually did utilize wooden armor at the time. There is an archaeologist on RUclips who recreated a set based on a French drawing. Just look up "Iroquois Armor." They just stopped using them pretty quick, once they realized that they were useless against bullets.
yes just found it ruclips.net/video/qmkQS8_MODE/видео.html. Thanks for sharing. Very neat!
The sea and lakes of Saguenay sound like the Great Lakes. The natives in the copper harbor area of the upper peninsula have been using and mining copper for a very long time.
Sounds similar to "Saginaw MI"
Yes it does
There was also a copper culture society that lived on the west side of Greenbay near the Peshtigo river that mined copper and might have had trade relations to tribes that mined silver on the upper peninsula of Michigan or in Ohio and the lead might have come from the driftless area of Southwest Wisconsin, Southeast Minnesota, Northeast Iowa, and Northwest Illinois.
And Isle Royale on Lake Superior has ancient copper mines also. Island Kingdom hmmmm.
There may absolutely be a kernel of truth to the Saguenay story, but as this was written down in the ca 1540, I think the historical content of the icelandic sagas would be more trustworthy, as the Greenland saga was put to paper around 1260, at a time when there were flourishing viking societies on Greenland.
Keep in mind that in 1861 the Inuit where still telling the story of Martin Frobisher and his lost men, an event that that happened in 1576 nunatsiaq.com/stories/article/taissumani-oct-16/. I do agree the sagas may be more trustworthy because Cartier was likely pressing Donnacona for information that he likely did not have or was exaggerated to appease him.
The sagas speak about vinland south of newfoundland. Look at a map. If they went south, they would've stay in view of the shoreline. They would've seen the saguenay river as the first big river leading them to fresh water. Up the fjords of the Saguenay. Hmm. Fjords that looked like home. To a freshwater sea. Protecting them like a safe harbor. Plenty of timber fish food and drinkable water.
"Skrælingar" in Icelandic mean savages
More like skinny, undernourished
@@sarahgilbert8036 I know what Skrælingar means, Icelandic Norse has not changed in 1100 years
@Butterbeans Brother lol stfu we would run a deer into exhaustion
TY. Very interesting & informative video.
I love videos like this. Great story.
Very well made! Did you get the footage yourself? Looks like it's all around Quebec city during the same foggy day. :)
Thank you for this presentation.
That might not be true in that the only First Nation People to have accounts of the Norse. In Northern Ontario the Anishinaabe have stories within the oral traditions that mention to avoid the areas where villages are protected by ferrous men with light coloured skin beards and fight with shinning sticks. Around Iron Bridge Ontario a stone foundation has apparently been found reminiscent of a Norse ship used to winter from the elements. A professor of language at the University in Norway ( Bergin i believe but don’t quote me on it) has found identical words and phrases of old Norse and Anishinabe ( Ojibwa) .... see rivers will travel seems to be the motto of the curious Norsemen.
great job mike! i am familiar with all the regions you discussed, having moved from montreal to quebec city. every summer, i travel to the saguenay region to fish in the remote northern lakes. it feels otherworldy.
Great job!
How awesome would it be if this kingdom survived and thrived hundreds of years in solitary? Perhaps they heard of the wars and turmoil taking place in Europe during the Viking age and decided to stay in their paradise?
When the norsemen left Greenland any surviving Vinland colony became isolated. The last catholic bishop of Green land died in 1378 which gives an approximate date when colder climate made the norse leave Greenland. Its actually not that long in isolation until Cartier travelled the area in the 1530's.
Beautiful video, very melancholic.
A Frenchman named a place 'Mount Royal' which would later be known as Montreal??? Genius, mon ami
Réal is an old French word meaning Royal and Montréal is the name they gave to Ville-Marie when the city started to grow and became more cosmopolitan, therefore the name Mount-Royal remained as Mont Royal for the mountain and Plateau Mont-Royal fo the district laying on the east side of the mountain. In Montreal folks usually refer to the Mount-Royal simply calling it La montagne. ⚜
The still popular author Nevil Shute Norway (1899-1960) touches on this topic in Vinland The Good (1946). I'll have to read it again.
Thanks for sharing. I will have to buy that.
If the natives in the area have a high prevalence of a Y chromosome typically found in Iceland, to the exclusion of other European Y chromosomes, this might be some evidence of Norse people sticking around for a while.
I'm Icelandic and have some strong unexplained DNA connections with people of East-Coast NA heritage that I've been trying to work out for a couple of years now. From Nova Scotia to the Carolinas. I suspect that there was more connection between Iceland and the Americas than the current History books would have you believe. Whether during the Greenland settlements or via the Basque... or...?
I mean arctic tribes shared Greenland with Vikings, so travel and interaction is not out of the question for either people.
@@BaltimoresBerzerker I also read somewhere that quite a few European coins and other trinkets have been found in Canada from the Greenland settlement period, hinting at trade with the Greenland Norse. The Greenland settlements became quite wealthy on Walrus Ivory and fur trade with Europe so It's very possible that their trade extended to trade with tribes on the mainland though the stories of that trade may not have made it into the Icelandic chronicles and have vanished with the last Greenland Norse.
Many seem to forget that Greenland was settled by Norse people for almost 500 years before it died out or was abandoned... and soon there after the Basque arrived, so the European American contact has probably been going on for over 1000 years.
Norse brought with them native americans back to Iceland which they married ,so the NA genes are strong there.
Thor Heyerdahl in couple of his last books wrote a good bit about Norse,Basque, North America there.
Saginaw, Michigan. The tribes around the Great Lakes, specifically the Iroquois, also used wooden armor and mined metal. Several mining locations have been documented. The Iroquois were also brutal as hell. If you got caught, they'd tie you to a pole, scalp you, and burn you. Alive of course.
Well depends on which Iroquois got you you first. The Mohawk might have eaten you.
Spot on description, I was there.
Totally correct. Europeans fished the waters in the 14thc and 15thc. Bristol traders had visited the Americans in the 1460s.
He was talking about copper from the great Lakes accessible by the sagnay river
Yes, the Native Americans traded UP Michigan copper to many other parts of North America.
The modern Saturday goes away from the Great Lakes though. Its nowhere close to the lakes, Its halfway to Labrador compared to the lakes.
@@deandeann1541 you mean the Saguenay ? It leader to chicoutimi, lake st-john, mistassini, Rupert river, then James bay, up the harikana river, to the outaway river down to the st- Laurence and the great Lakes. It Goes around lachine rapids and hostile territoires for algonkian.
Saguenay guy here, the river you re refering to ends with a lake known as Saint-Jean lake, the great lakes aren't accessible through it, the river was created by the melting of an iceberg, making a fjord
Its nice to see such a masterpiece on my little hometown
What a great little find this video was! Fascinating - great work!!
Strangely, the ‘ch’ in Hochelaga is pronounced as ‘sh’. Because of the ending é , Gaspé is pronounced like gas-pay.
Its appealing to consider this a quite feasible saga just waiting for a revealing discovery.
It's also possible that ch is the Iroquoian word geh, meaning of, or at, or just part of a larger word & that part is pronounced similarly. I see a lot of French renderings of Iroquoian village & tribe names writing geh as ch. Of course, all the examples I have are from much later.
As the ‘ch’ in ‘Michigan’ is also pronounced as ‘sh,’ Hochelaga was probably first written in the Roman alphabet by a French explorer, who would have spelled the sound in that way. Same with the place name ‘Gaspé’.
There is a tale that says that Rocher percé is the hammer of Thor that he threw in a rage and fell there in front of Gaspé as a reminder that the Vikings had been there. ⚜
Through an ancient misunderstanding in China, a man/mythical creature named 夔 Kui was said to have one foot: 一足.
Awesome video
Excellent video.
wow i' m from Saguenay, i like the viking and love Wagner what can i ask more.
c vraiment par chez nous
c vraiment beau par chez nous
Ça a l'air oui. Je viendrais bien y faire un tour, pour camper, un été.
Ça changera de la Guyane et de ma Normandie natale...
Come on man, Saguenay est aussi Viking que Thedford Mines est Venise!
(je niaise, j'adore votre coin ;)
I wonder if the aluminum smelter is still running.
Haudenosaunee, not Iroquois. Iroqoui is a French racist slur, created by a lack of understanding in speech. Between the French and Natives.
Awesome video, very informative. As a decendent of both Natives and Scandenavian myself. I appreciate this video.
Really cool! 😎
Thank you.🇺🇸🇨🇦
What did this racist slur mean?
@@nicolasrenaud6875 the French tried to mimick what they heard the tribes speak. Look up the Smithsonian video, it can explain better than me. People of the Long House, 6 Nations. First Natives to cross the colonists. Algonquin Mohawk.✌️
@@nicolasrenaud6875 wish it wasn't true. Being a decendent myself, researching my Native Relatives for myself out of couriousity.
@@christophersherman1198 which video are you talking about? So I can go watch and understand what you mean
Well-researched
One-legged man sounds more like an anime protagonist than a monster
That's why bigfoot is not called bigfeet
LOL
That's a funny one... They can never proove the existence of the bigfoot because they could never find more than one footprint at the time... 🐾🐾
I was there, all those years ago.
As far as Vinland is concerned, the Vin in Vinland has no connection to wine (as the plant the beverage with the same name is derived from).
Vinland in old Swedish/Norwegian is another word for "betesland", meaning grazing land / grass land.
I'd read that before but then looked at Icelandic translations. Icelanders basically still speak old norse.
Very interesting and well presented documentary! Really enjoyed it. I'd like to offer a small correction to your pronunciation of the "Gaspe" peninsula though: It is generally pronounced "Gasp-ay" by English and French speakers alike in Quebec.
K bec 👈🏻😉
What about every other mispronunciation/ phrase?
yeah also it's "new'fun land" not "new FOUND land"
@@ordinaryhand lard tunnerin jeez 'by
Forgetting the many inaccuracies of the commentary, a few notations about a land of Saguenay are worth noting. Notably is a Norse axe head reportedly found in Minnesota in the 1920s. Since the item lacked clear provenance it's judged inconclusive but it's reported discovery locale is interesting in light of a Norse fleet that purportedly found its way into Hudson's Bay in the mid-14th century. The proof that this fleet reached Hudson's Bay is disputed. Then there is the purported voyages of discovery made by the Earl of Cathiness and the Orkneys in the late 14th century, legends accepted by the Sinclair family and rejected by pretty much everyone else. I'm not entirely dismissive for reasons that I lack space here to explain. I will say that Nova Scotia natives have their own legends about whites living in their land before the arrival of the accepted first settlers in the first half of the 17th century. I also note that I've seen rather conclusive (albeit second hand) archaeological evidence for the settlement of interior Nova Scotia by Europeans before 1550, a century before its generally accepted founding. So, what's all this mean? We probably know a lot less then we'd care to admit but we can only publish in scientific journals what we can conclusively prove.
May I ask if you are referring to New Ross? (New roslin)
There is zero evidence of European settlement of the interior of Nova Scotia before the 1550s. Even today, if you look on maps, etc., the interior of Nova Scotia is very sparsely populated. There is good reason for that - the land is not very supportive of European style habitation.
You also have to ask the question was to why would they settle in the interior, away from prime food resources, trade, etc.
@@canadianmmaguy7511: the amount of pre-1500 written information pertaining to European settlement and exploration of the interior of North America probabab.y doesn't exceed a couple of dozen pages. Archaeology provides an extremely limited data supplement. With so little data to work with as we can do is offer speculation.
Considering that the Vikings as great sailors inched forward along the arctic islands over decades before they finally reached the closest part of North America, I find it very hard to picture that any other Europeans from further south, may it be Brits or Basques or Irish, were able to cross the wide Atlantic against the wind in one go.
The Norse boats were open- they had no enclosed decks. The later ships of Discovery- the caravels, carracks, and naus, all had enclosed decks, so a cross-ocean voyage was possible. The early fishers (well the Brits anyway) could sale due west from southern Ireland and be sure of reaching Newfoundland at some point. A fascinating time in history.
Great story. Thanks.
It's not the only record, check out Joseph Brant's quote on the mound builders. Anne Cameron's "Daughters of Copper Woman" from the west coast and Blackfoot legends about the origins of ogham petroglyphs in the badlands of Alberta.
Very intriguing. Do you have a link you can share for the Joseph Brant quote and other legends?
@@mikesandone2652 nothing on line I've seen, source may have come from a book published in 1932 called "the tragedy of old Huronia" but it's been 30 years and I need to dig it up again.
The Vikings lasted several hundred years but weather changed over time, crops failed, it became uneconomic to support the colony.
Facinating !!! Archeological artifacts would prove this, I wonder if a collection of artifacts from these locations is in existence
beautifully made documentary
Vikings must have felt right at home in the Saguenay
I'm eager to learn about pre-Columbian exploration of the Maritime provinces.
Knights templar from orkney, Basque peoples, irish monks, and pre-phonecian peoples.
I think Europeans were, before 1492, aware that there was a land mass to the West. They were not totally ignorant of the New World. The Norse obviously settled L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland during the eleventh century but they did not widely publicize their discovery allowing Columbus to "discover" America. Like the Vikings, the Iroquois were far-flung traders. There is strong resemblance between Iroquois longhouses and Viking longhouses.
The thing is, the Greenland Norse who disappeared sometime after 1400, were almost certainly harvesting timber in NE Canada until roughly that time.
The foggy coasts remind me of a year in Portland OR, where it rains from November to May. I was ready to open a vein.
Good stuff!
Another possibility is that the story originated with one in the deep past and was passed to the other way back when.
I don’t get why people take historical accounts as true up until it comes to something that they can’t imagine as being possible so they then say “ahh yes this part is made-up” and continue reading along and as soon as it returns to normal they believe it again.
There is so much out there you would not believe unless you saw it, so start opening up because the truth is both weirder and more beautiful than you’d ever think 🤍
If you were to read the viking sagas, you would understand why they were dismissed as merely stories and not historical fact. Even today only small sections can be taken seriously
Roscoe the key is facts, not fantasies.
I have heard this story many times. It's so good . I heard the ship got stuck. They came off the ship. Then they left but not before making some children, with blue eyes.
AWESOME
Back in my younger days many a fair maiden thought I had only one leg
That's weird, they all thought I had three.
@@user-zv3uz2nk6v damn u beat me to it!
I recently learned that the reason for my Scottish roots is because my ancestors were Vikings that migrated from Norway to England.
Well, technically, "england" didn't exist at the time of the Norse-Viking Invasion -- the word "england" didn't exist, either as a person or a country, or even as a county or a castle or a place of power, until sometime after the Anglo-Saxon Invasion of ~ 600AD [and probably not until after the Norman [French] invasion of ~ 1066 AD] -- after the Romans left and roughly about the same time as the Norse-Viking Invasion, although the Norse-Viking had made several invasion attempts much earlier .. what we call, today, 'england' was basically called 'Britain' for most of its life and probably well into the post-Lancastrian period [1400 - 1600 AD] .. what the Romans called 'Alba' or 'Caledonia' [northern 'Britain'] - or what we call, nowadays, "Pictland" and 'Dalriada' and "Scotland" [where the Irish 'Scoti' settled] wouldn't actually get officially called 'Scotland' probably until around 1200 AD to 1400 AD [sometime after Macbeth [1050 AD], who clearly "King of Alba", and probably not during either Malcolm's or David's reign. who I believe both were still identified as Kings of Alba - 'Ri Alban'] - all the early "Kings of 'Scotland'" - including Macbeth - were, officially, Kings of Alba, not Kings of Scotland -- previous to that - I don't really know the first official use of "King of Scotland" - the country, as far as we know, was never called 'Scotland' -- the locals just .. had a different name for it .. mostly "Alba", especially in the Highlands and Celtic speaking parts of modern Scotland .. Ancient Scotland -- // -- [in fact, all of ancient, pre-Roman, pre-Norse, pre-Anglo-Saxon 'Briton' [what the Welsh call 'Prydain' and what the ancient Britons called 'Prydain' - because they were and still are the exact same people] .. [in Scotland: more likely "Alba" or possibly 'Caledonia' or [more likely] also "Prydain" - because the Picts were very likely first cousins the Welsh - and, later, the Dalriada settlement in the Argyle area [the far north of 'Ireland' was originally called 'Scotland' - because it was settled by the Scoti - then the Scoti moved across and settled in Argyle, which they called Dal Riata = 'The Royals Place'] -- // -- anyway, Ancient Scotland was made up of 1] 'Picts' [the painted people to the Highlands and Far North East of Scotland], 2] "Britons" or, more accurately, "Prytains" [genetically, linguistically and socially identical to what would later be called the 'Welsh'], and 3] Gaels {the Scoti} .. after the Norse Invaded Shetland, Orkney, the Western Isles and the far north of Alba [where the Picts lived], the Vikings killed off the Pictish Royalty, the Scots gained control [through the Scoti-Picti inbred, Kenneth mac Alpin] and the Vikings interbred with the Picts and the Scoti, creating what, today, we call the Norse-Scoti [native residents of Scotland with Scottish and Norse ancestry] .. southern 'Scotland' [the low-lands and Borders region south of Edinburgh and Glasgow] is mostly Anglo Saxons that moved north, from Kent and London, and interbred with the Welsh {Prytains}, the Picts living closer to the South, and the Scoti living closer to the South .. there were also Norse-Vikings who invaded in the area of York [roughly halfway between London and Edinburgh], which at one time was the power center of British Royalty during and previous to the War of the Roses {pre-Elizabeth, pre-Shakespeare} .. if you watch old films of WW1 and WW2 [I'd say any movie made before about 1970] the "English" Soldiers and the Blue Collar "English" People NEVER call themselves "english" -- they always - always - call themselves "Brits" or "British" .. calling yourself "English" is exclusive to the High Brow Royalty and the Posh Rich Elite -- never to the Blue-Collar British People .. and the Scots, Welsh and Irish NEVER, NEVER call themselves English or British - although the "Welsh" [Cymry] are generically, socially, religiously, and natively "Prydain" and identical to the Prydain that lived in Britain 2,000 years ago, before the first Roman ever set foot in Prydain ..
@@bradhartliep879 thanks for that info. good to know in any event my ancestors migrated there even if it wasn’t England then.
@Peter Lorimer thanks I like to understand my history good information I guess that’s what Vikings did unfortunately 😀
Some history is older than you think and some is younger. I've been a fan of "Fair Isle" knitting patterns since I was a child, and the story then was that they were quite ancient. Come to find out that they came to the northern tip of the UK with Scandinavians who went there during WWII to escape the Nazi occupation of their country... Now that we can trace ancestry with DNA testing, I think we're going to learn a lot about who went where and when. And I also think all the historic artifacts haven't been found yet....
“After several broad lakes a freshwater sea”
Yeah doesn’t seem like Vinland, seems like Drummond Island in Lake Huron. The water around Newfoundland is salty…
Did someone mention, Sagueney is phonetically identical to Nordic SAGAØY, the Saga Island, so to say the promised land! 😁
Saginaw
In ojibwa language , Sag-uenay : ( "Where the sauks trades" sauk = sag )....🤷
They made it to Georgian Bay. The 'map' found it's way into Templar hands, and they went there, built some round Templar fortifications and a small settlement. The Jesuit cause was to wipe out all evidence of that settlement, Brule was the 'agent' responsible for this, and it became clear the Huron had to go due to their oral history...and as such...they went. There is a staff and band cannon found near Penatanguishine that was quickly obfuscated by the historical apparatus, and is buried in the archived items found in the relatively new museum in Ottawa see; Anthropology and Human History, other artifacts are also hidden from the public eye in Midlands museum that date to this period, which is, a period where the narrative has no European contact with native tribes.
I live between Georgian Bay and Lake Simcoe and, although this may sound goofy, I've always felt some kind of Norse or Nordic energy permeating the area. I don't know how to explain it, but I'm completely possessed by the idea that Vikings explored the entirety of the St. Lawrence/Great Lakes basin. The notion they were sailing about in the Gulf of St. Lawrence but failed to find the river, and thereby, the Great Lakes, is absurd to me. The notion they would abandon the New World is likewise absurd. They knew it was fertile: They knew it was full of timber, fish, game, berries, etc. They knew they had a technological advantage over the Indians. How could they abandon a place like this so thoroughly?
@@liquidoxygen819 I had a farm on Flos Rd 4 and Glengarry Landing...lived in Barrie for 12 years previous to that...I know the area and it's 'craft historians' well.
Hmm sounds like Saginaw as in Saginaw Michigan.
That's really interesting. I was thinking the description sounded more like the Great Lakes than what we now call Saguenay. Might be onto something there!
I am certain the Vikings visited the Great Lakes. I have nothing to base it on other then the fact that Vikings boats could go anywhere. I'm pretty sure at least one of them would notice the St. Lawrence and say.."I wonder where that goes.."
Just a thought
@@Justtc But then you have the Lachine rapides on the shore of Montreal which no ore or wind driven boat could of past. Plus the currents before the rapides are extremely strong. I like your theory but am doubptfull
@@simonnadeau2146 yeah pretty sure they were talking about Saguenay. it's closer to the opening of the St-Laurent where it's still large and I think it was an Algonquin speaking nation there so an "enemy" of an Iroquoian speaking nation that lived more downriver (Mohawk )
@@nieldoenn711 yeah but the accounts mention botb the Saguenay and Outaouais rivers, and they are NOT close. At that time I don't think there would have been a waterway connecting the two through the north...
I think Saguenay makes more geographical sense, but those legends from the upper St Lawrence are puzzling as well.
It was a wee bit hard for me to follow but then I realized it's just a dialect....tomato, tamato....interesting. thanks.
Ive never heard of the Cartier stories before and i read quite a bit of his stuff when i was young.
I've been looking for signs of tools made from old viking weapons. I figure they must exist.
I exist figure must TheY
See if you can find 'SECRETS OF THE VIKING STONE' which pins down rather definitive evidence of vikings in the Great Lake region. Also the show 'America's Lost Vikings'. There's heaps of evidence, it just isn't academically main stream just yet.
The Norse were likely settled anywhere anywhere they had access to glacial run-off, where they originated. I would argue that ‘Vine’ means stream, or sweet water. Water with zero dissolved solids and no bacterial growth is a great contributor to health. It was also part of Norse religion to drink only sweet water, glacial run-off and to establish their communities around this resource. ‘Vinland’ was a land of fresh water streams, as is apparent from the locales chosen by Viking explorers, immediately south of Greenland. The whole thing about grapes is Americo-centric nonsense applied to myth. They were looking for glacial run-off to establish their colonies, failing that, would gladly seek out fast running fresh water, such as you would find in L’Anse-Aux-Meadows.
Blue berries.
Interesting. I have visited this part of Québec a few years ago. I doubt that we will ever know the true history of Canada, but it’s fun to piece together the clues!!!
Interesting !!!!
We simply are told what history needs to say, not what it actually was.
Very interesting... though much better once sped up to 125% - cheers!
Skræling, the name the norsemen gave the Inuits and the fn-people could either mean something like a leather-man (reflecting to the leather clothes), or a "fragile/thin- man". The word "skral" is used today as a synonym to sick/fragile.
Inuit are very short, compact people (I ran into a few in Alaska. Perhaps that is what he name refers to.
Scraeling derives from the old norse word “screamer” or “shrieking”
@@matthewmartin2422 screamer or shrieking is not a old norse word, that's english. ;-). I have never heard that explanation before, and I doubt that you are correct in the statement, since the people with the right education doesn't forward that view. The closest Norwegian word I can think of with that meaning is "skråle". The modern word "Skrik" (scream) comes from the old norse "skrík". Then they would have been called "Skrikinger". That pronunciation is not even close to "Skræling".
@@sidekickbob7227 Skräl is in the swedish dictionary.. I also know it and it´s meaning personally. I also happen to live in a viking highsociety region of sweden wich traveled eastwards. There might be a correlation of some sort.. Who knows.. www.saob.se/artikel/?unik=S_04977-0330.eYRE It´s meaning is more or less as stated above.
"Skräl" is the swedish synonym to the Norwegian "skrål". The Norsemen called both the Inuits on Greenland, and the FN people in North America for "Skrælinger". Since they met the Inuits first, we can assume it is the Inuit "tell-sign" who gave them the name, not the FN people of North America. Then you could ask your self what word you would use to describe a Inuit? Their awful song, or the well known leather clothes with a fur lined hood? BTW, According to wikipedia, it was a professor William Thalbitzer who speculated that it might have been derived from the old norse word of skrækja, meaning bawl, shout or yell. He died in 1958, and I haven't been able to easily find others who back up this speculation. But who knows? I'm no expert. It's interesting anyway. :-)
I have compared this story to the description in the Saga of Eric the Red and it could fit somehow, if we assume that the vikings sailed south east along the south coast of Quebec instead of south along the west coast of Newfoundland, as has often been assumed. The land the vikings named Hop would then be the Seguenay area. And Straumsey with all the birds most likely Anticosti Island. Does anyone know if there are strong currents along Anticosti Island?
Possibly as the magnetic north pole rotated the Norse maps of Northern Canada which go all the way to the bearing straights .
Today, we call the Saguenay the region around Lac-St-Jean, Alma, etc. It is a big lake North of Québec City, if you look on a map. It's a region known for his blueberries and famous cheese and everyone is kinda related (sad, but it's because of its remote location). They are nice people, tho, and it's a very beautiful place to visit
Interesting, I wonder how the small mines around the Great Lakes for iron and such could relate to this. Saginaw (according to Wikipedia 8 may be based in the Ojibwe words for where the Sauk (live also means outlet), believed to be the western shore of Lake Michigan. Hmm the UP of Michigan between Lake Superior and Lake Michigan might be a good layover place in a long journey gathering ore from the area’s natural iron deposits on the western side of Lake Superior...?
Go watch 'SECRETS OF THE VIKING STONE', Vikings were in Minnesota.
The word 'Viking" is a little misleading as it means "pirate" or "freebooter". The brief settlement in Newfoundland was made up of seafaring Danish peasants, who came looking for materials, be it lumber, fish and other things that they could take back to their small settlements in Greenland. This took place during the Medieval Warming Period. Had the Danish settlers been Vikings, they would have come in force, but there was nothing that made it worth while to come all that distance to loot. Had they known about the civilizations of Central America, they might have made the trip.
I hate the Viking term on everything Scandinavian from that time. Why not "Norsemen"? Or "Scandinavians"? Great video anyways!
Thank You ❤️
An Irish hermit was in Newfoundland in the fifth century AD.
Who has been to North America, most people who were good at boats I would say.
I’ve been there.