Historia | Rahdo's Prototype Thoughts
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
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A video outlining gameplay for the boardgame Historia. For more game info, www.boardgamege...
Kickstarter Link: www.kickstarte...
Part I: Gameplay Runthrough
• Historia Gameplay Runt...
• (Static Cam) Historia ... (static cam)
Part II: Extended Gameplay
• Historia Extended Game...
• (Static Cam) Historia ... (static cam)
Part III: Final Thoughts
• Historia | Rahdo's Pro...
On the destruction of cubes, the cubes don't just represent actual people. It is true that they are placed on the board to represent territories that you occupy, but they represent your empires general power and resources. I never really thought of them in our games as people. So, yeah, when it says "destroy a cube", its not killing thousands of people - it is just representing that you have invested so much of your empires resources into activating the ability that it has a lasting effect on your empire. I think... That's the way I viewed it :)
We had some of the same issues with the icons. I'm a little involved with the development and I can confirm that the board icon on the timeline has been changed, so that particular one is now clear that you get back 1 cube per territory.
there is also a reference sheet with the icons on it, and like a lot of games, once you get your head around them, its fine.
Why consider the cubes people only? I think you mention in the runthrough that the cubes represent various resources...so from this point of view the pentagon's power could be that, in order to increase the military power, you exploit your natural resources so much that the become exhausted...think of atomic testing on islands and such
yup agreed :)
I was hoping this one was going to be THE civilization-growing game that I could really get into. I love the board and the way the military and the intellectual advancements take place in that grid style and how the cards are used as well. I could get used to the iconography because I'm a fan of 7 Wonders as well as Troyes/Tournay. (Both are icon-heavy!)
If I were still a big board game guy, I would probably look deeper at this one. I'm trying my hand at Pathfinder at the moment, so my gaming mind is focused on my young Cleric right now. lol
I think I have a better interpretation for your thematic problems. First of all the designer should have used the word discard instead of destroy, but ok. When you are told to destory/discard an OLD wonder for a NEW one, I guess the theme is, that the coloseum will not give you any advantages any more in the space age, so it becomes obsolete. And if you destroy/discard a cube for building a massive wonder/building I see it as if those ressources are permanently attached to that, because running something like CERN or the Pentagon requires a LOT of ressources.
That's the way I saw it. You are not literally tearing down the old wonders, but rather they are no longer giving you the benefit they once did as time has moved on.
Gaming Rules! it's true, and I guess I do accept that's the intent, but the thematic intent doesn't really match the actual game mechanism. The Stone Henge card didn't get removed from the game because I failed to continue to pay upkeep costs to keep it around, so that it basically fell into disuse and got removed from the game (that would be mechanisms matching theme)... instead, I took the *proactive* step of activating the pentagon, which in turn forced the card to be removed from the game.
No doubt, thematically, this represents my society choosing to no longer maintain stonehenge in its former glory, and our time and effort instead when to military stuff stuff, but still, it's a very odd abstract disconnect between an active choice, and a dissociated thematic passive result...
That's why it felt so jarring to us... "why is the pentagon eating stonehenge?" :)
***** "Pentagon eats Stonehenge". Love it. That's going to be the title of my next game!
I kinda interpret the "destroying of wonders" as society shifting where it draws inspiration from. I'm pretty sure you can find adequate analogies in today's society, where most people may ignore those ancient things, or just remember them once every now and then, whereas technological advances are what really "wonder" and inspire population. The wonders aren't physically destroyed, just become unimportant.
+Rafael Maia I more or less agree. I see that as rendering those 'wonders' irrelevant (i.e. a tourist attraction) to the functionality of an advancing society. I mean really, at one point Stone Henge and Roman Baths were actually used for something. Now, not so much.
I kind of like the thematic framing behind destroying old wonders. The longer the game goes on the more desperate you are to win and the more resource hungry your society becomes, so they decide to tear down the things that aren't "useful" anymore. It kind of add a weird self-imposed morality system into the game.
+blindpringles I tend to think of it as "make a wonder obsolete". It's still there, just sort of forgotten and decaying like many ruins of ancient wonders today.
+Jonathan Roy Exactly.
I particularly really like the idea of selling of the wonders to private enterprises (like museums etc) but the genocide part of destroying cubes I totally keep in the game when I'm playing with my friends. I just make sure to really judge them harshly if they begin getting rid of cubes for VPs. I just wish there was a little better balance between technology and military to reward those who don't destroy cubes. I think it's the games way forcing us to choose what sort of civilization we support.
Your way of thinking is right. Seems I have to wait on this one. Thanks rahdo!
one interesting point - playing with the finale version, is that the Exploit action - iti is written very small, but it permits us to either take a used cube OR let down a terroitory and take a cube back from one of it ... if you are on a short leash, you can do that, and I lived exactly the same problem of over expansion... and knowing that, and the fact that the oldest card are up un the row and not the most recent ones, I stucked myself, what a superb game ! and you didnt even play with all the options : only de civilization bonus token, there is the capital and the command card and the variant with 3 leaders tfor 3 eras...
another point dont see the suprresion of a cube as a genocide, just as an overinvestment in the war effort, and when you are doing taht, you dont have the resources anymore for expansion or research, we cant do everything as in real life... and elegant the disposition (not destruction) of cultural asset to the private domain... it is avant tout an abstract game so dont let us stuck in such paradigm... it is a game of resource management that is all...
thank you for the review, I bought this game in a bargain lot for almost nothing anf that game gave me more pleasure than a lot of other novelties ;o) and the solo and 2 players games augmented with civ bots is a real cool implemetation before all the automa mode wave... must aknowledge that too ...
I would say if the cubes are "resorses" (anything and everythng) as described in the first video then I would say The Pentagon is very thematic. You take resorces and convert them into military trength. Seeing how much money USA spend on there military I would say it is exactly what the Pentagon is. Or you could say you convert part of the population into a standing army, seeing you where inclined to see the cube as population.
+Daniel Jensen This is what I was thinking too. Like a permanent commitment to military funding hurting the rest of your economy, so less resources to spend elsewhere.
You could see the removal of the cube for the pentagon as assigning a lot of workers to this job..?
maybe, but that implies that the people are still around. there's lot of other 'put people to work' cards that don't destroy the cube. it's the permanence of loss that strikes me, though ultimately the designers contacted me again and described some much cooler thematic stuff for lost cubes... pentagon usage could equal lost personal freedom for citizens, for example :)
Did the issues that Rahdo brings up in these final thoughts get addressed in the finished product?
wondering this myself!
Ryan Jenkinson dunno, i never got a copy of the final... tbh though, my thematic issues were completely immaterial, coming about because of a miscommunication via email between me and the publisher :)
***** Thanks for the reply!
Listening now!~ We have been contemplating sponsoring this game on Kickstarter. we will see.....
Another option with the pentagon is that a large portion of your society is now focused on warfare. You have just switched the focus of your economy to a wartime economy
hmmmm....in regards to that 'genocide/destruction' stuff. Keep in mind I haven't watched the run through, skipped to this to see if i should tread back afterwards..that said...
Why not imply that the novelty of said buildings or influence of said populations simply become nullified? As in if you have populations represented by the cubes you could imply that you've simply lost influence over that population or if you perform some card play were you discard or flip over your wonder perhaps you could just imply that the cultural significance of that structure has lost it's lustre.
it is the novelty of the wonders that produces the benefits stated on the cards is it not?
how about Historia vs Nations? Since you played both, and I think they are similar
nations, definitely. historia has some very cool ideas, but nations is just on another level completely :)
***** cool, thanks for your input, I might just get nations, although Historia on KS is coming to an end.... struggling which to get... >
rahdo, how did the final rules turn out? TIA
never saw the final version
I want a comparison between this and Nations. I only have space in my collection for one Civ game and I'm so torn about which to get.
hmm, for me and Jen it would be nations in large part because there is no direct attacking in that game...
***** Are the last rounds in Historia as laborious as it seems? Trying to keep up with all of your wonders and their effects seems unwieldy.
i can understand your point about warfare but look back in history, so many countries or civ's did just do war to expand. Almost no vcv used only peace and technology to expand. Rome, Greece Hun's you name it they only got in the history books because of war.
sure, plenty of war in history... but still, jen and I don't enjoy it in civ games :)
***** Yea i understand that, but you can't ignore trough the ages wars come and go even till today. For religion reason mostle trough history and present day.
So sad making war about the greatest lie in mankind.
hey rahdo, a couple things here.
-how long would you say the game takes top play?
- I know you and Jen do not like to attack each other in a lot of games or at least enjoy games more when they don't have the 'take that' element to them, but, as other people said, It is pretty thematic. I want to get this game and see the differences in gameplay if you focus solely on military and war. But thats just me. I like a good war game and implements of war in games. But i also like the nice easy going game also.
The other thing i wanted to talk about has nothing to do about the game. I used to watch your videos a lot. Just about every video you ;posted i would watch. But lately, since your last kickstarter, it seems to me like you are doing more kickstarter games than anything and that bothers me because, i don't have means at the moment to fund these kickstarter games and they aren't usually put in to game shops around my house afterwords. I would love to see some runthroughs of older games on your shelves, maybe ones that you showed in your collection run through that you haven't got to yet. Either way i won't stop watching, but honestly i most the time decide what games im getting after i watch it on your channel and there are some that interest me that you have but you don't have videos.
definitely less than 2 hours to play. :)right now, because there's a lull in new games coming out, it's the heaviest time of the year for kickstarter games (this happened last year too). come gencon time, i think it'll switch away from kickstarters again :)
Alright, cool. I am actually sort of new to the modern board game community so I am still learning when games come out and such. Thanks for the reply. :) Either way your videos are the best. I will eventually have to go back and watch the ones i missed
The destruction of wonders throughout history is not uncommon. The only ancient wonder still standing today are the Pyramids at Giza. all of the others have been destroyed by natural disasters or plundered and destroyed. In the example you give, of the Colosseum Half of it was destroyed in an earthquake and the rubble was plundered for stone used in the construction of other buildings throughout Rome. The bronze was stripped away to be recycled into weapons, and a lot of the marble was burnt to make quicklime which is used in cement. Thematically I can understand the difficulty in "destroying" a wonder but I choose not to look at it like that. I look at it as the wonders become obsolete. There was a time in history when the Colosseum was used as a theater and contributed to the happiness and productivity of the people of Rome but it doesn't do that anymore. There was a time when the Great Wall defended China from Mongol invaders but it doesn't do that anymore. There was a time when Machu Picchu was a home to thousands of people but its not anymore. Maybe you can play a house rule where when you "destroy" a wonder instead of discarding it you put it off to the side and can,t use its effects anymore, but you keep it and all wonders are worth a victory point at the end of the game.
William Hill yup, agreed. but there's a deference (in terms of feel) between "letting something fall into disuse" and "i will destroy this" which is what it feels like when you trash a wonder to activate the effects of another. yes, thematically, it makes sense, but it's still a visceral disconnect between the gameplay action and the thematic event its meant to represent, that just felt a bit off to us...
I thought you would enjoy reading this, Rahdo: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity
oh right! THAT singularity! the one where Jonny Depp takes over the world :)
How easy would this game be to teach new players?
not too bad, i suppose. most of the crucial information is on the board
I taught two groups of people over the weekend. Gave them the basics and watched their first 2 turns, but after that, left them to it.
Perhaps your not committing genocide but simply disenfranchising or disillusioning a portion of society who are no longer willing to contribute to your empire? Building something like the Pentagon or CERN is something that may cause this kind of effect.
yup, i do like that betta :)
Why on earth would you WANT to look at it as genocide!? I agree with you, I wish thematically some things would make more sense!!!
Thanks for this runthrough and final thoughts. I was thinking of backing, but for my group I can't see this working very well.
well, the publisher talked to me more after i posted my vidoe, and it turns out that it was a language misunderstanding when I thought he said it was genocide... he doesn't think that's what it is... just a misunderstanding :)
Haha well that's good! :)
So the designer doesn't care about the thematic implications of the mechanics in his thematic game? Unless they change that i think i'll stay away as far as possible from this game.
actually i talked to the designers some more about this after i put my video up, and they said that the email conversation I was referring to was a big misunderstanding (their english is only so-so) and that they do give a lot of thought to thematic explanations of why things "decay" and it actually made a lot of good sense... :)
After you put your video up you say? Mh, i see. ;)
Whatever, i'll review (means i'll look at it) the game once it's out and give it another chance.
How about following with the computer game Civ, you obsolete a wonder?
yeah, that's basically what's happening, i guess. still feels weird that a passive process comes about because of an active game move...
I stopped watching the gameplay walkthrough when Cicero and Descartes cavemen were revealed. I'm starting to get sick of historic games failing to depict history. Of course there has to be some room for alternative history because otherwise you'd have the same game every time you play. I just don't like these extremes. If you cannot depict history then don't even try to.
One game that comes to mind that did it sort of right was Britannia if i remember correctly. Too bad the actual game is utter trash though.