In this Vlog I attempt to explain some of the "behind the curtain" things that are little know about Intonation. Support: / rosastringworks Website: www.rosastring...
Your solution is an elegant solution because nobody will ever know or suspect it was difference from your original plan. If you made the nut wider it would raise questions on why you did it that way. Alternately if you moved the freeboard to maintain your normal nut width, people would notice the 15th fret does not line-up exactly. That would raise questions also.
Even a master such as you at ANYTHING can't please everyone. So just keep doing what you do and shrug off the naysayers. You have top musicians coming to you for knowledge and setups. Press on
As long as the fretboard has the slots cut at the correct ratio locations for each note then it will work out fine. The important point is the precision of the fret location not the absolute scale size. Just wouldn't matter if it was a fretless mandolin, but that would be really hard to play.
I am a believer.You don't have to convince me...I know you know what you are talking about. You have proven that over and over again. I have heard the improvements you have made in the instruments you have worked on.You are a master at your trade .And I have enjoyed all of your videos.
I enjoyed watching you share your passion. There will always be haters. Don’t sweat it. Where your right, you’re right. Continue doing what you do best. Basically everything lol you’re awesome Jerry. 👍🤘
Jerry by watching your videos I have learned so much about intonation and bridge placement. My archtop guitars are playing the best these old ears and a tunner can make them. And the mandolin I am trying to learn ain't to shabby either. I just want to say thanks.
You have preached to my choir and all I can say is Amen! I sort of feel like Neo in the Matrix, "I know Intonation", with your excellent instruction in this and other videos you have aired.
Fretted instruments are tuned following "EQUAL TEMPERAMENT". Strictly speaking a "temperament" is NOT "intonation". The only tuning called Intonation is the JUST INTONATION.
You're alright Jerry, it's the rest of the world that is out of kilter. The mandolin will turn out just fine. Thanks for all you do and the entertainment you provide. Awesom.
Great idea here Jerry, you have solved the issue in one, it will look fab and totally in keeping with the luxurious quality of this mandolin, also it will be unique to you as the luthier. genius idea, go for it. Peace and love from Bonny Scotland.
First off, of course any scale length can be made musically sound as long as the fret spacing ratios are cut accurately. But my problem with what happened here is that your fingerboard's scale length is obviously a little off from what you expected it would be. You measured the distance from the nut to the 12th fret as approximately 17.5 cm or 6.89 inches , which translates to a scale length of about 13.78 inches, give or take any error in measurement, while my understanding is that the standard scale length for an F style mandolin is 13 7/8 or 13.875 inches, which makes the scale on your fingerboard about a tenth of an inch shorter than the standard for an F style mandolin which is what shows up at your nut slot. I would expect better from a CNC cut board and it seems somebody made a mistake somewhere. It's up to you whether that discrepancy is acceptable, but I personally would want to get what I ordered and expected.
Hello Jerry and people of the channel. I have followed Jerry in his channel for more than 4 years. I learned a lot, specially about intonation. I built myself 3 guitars. Two acoustic and one classical guitar. You may glue the fretboard and the bridge slightly of position. Then you may think everything is ruined. No way. There it comes intonation to save you. If you glued everything in right position, it is fine. But if something slipped away, don't be nervous. With the help of a good tuner you will be able to find the new position for the saddle that will make your guitar work like a charm. Just watch carefully one of the Jerry's videos about intonation that you'll understand. And at the end, your guitar will be the most perfect guitar ever built by a human... LOL. Congrats to everyone.
I'm so glad you explained concepts to those who had no idea what you were talking about (probably some still don't)! I wonder how many were perfectly fine with your first explanation? Now, I wonder how many will dislike me? Do I dare send this? Thank you as always, Jerry! SIGNED, Your GOOD FRIEND, Maxey
Great to see you in full common sense flow mode here Jerry, i loved it, i know you are right. Brought a smile to my face. lol. Peace and love from Bonny Scotland.
I too also figured that the vast majority of watchers here understood the 'scale' ratios better. Adjusting the 'fit' is no big deal, and the purfling is great... something to consider adding to all future Rosa mandos. Great vid to explain in detail. Building any instrument is filled with fitting and fairing. Beautiful work Jerry, and superb education again. 👏👏 I have been doing my own guitar setups for 55 years. Everything can change the perfect intonation.. string gauge, action height. I have very high intolerance for off pitch, unless a bend is being made, and learned very very quickly to make each string just right with the Haggastrum fully adjustable floating bridge on my Guild.
Just saying you can get it perfect today. It will not be perfect tomorrow wood changes with humidity...it will never be perfect but it will be as good as any other instrument...great job.....keep up the great work..
Man ..... U did awesome on this mandolin! The whole intonation and miniscule measurement crap was blown way out of proportion! You made a gorgeous instrument sir. Blows my mind the artistry that pours out of your fingertips! Awesome!
In my 35 + years of playing, I've never seen any hand made instrument come out the exact same. And to me that is the magic in them. Good work sir. And like someone else has already said with the precut fret slots in the correct place that fretboard will be just fine.
I think some people were confused and thought the fretboard was off in the sense that the first fret was shorter than it was supposed to be or something along those lines. From what I understand it was just a slightly different scale than what you were expecting but as long as the bridge is in the right place, it will intonate just fine.
Before you start, I want you to know that I have watched all of your videos over the years and I understand intonation perfectly, thanks to the many videos you have done, explaining all about it. Thanks, Jerry.
Jerry is fired up! Jerry, you should feel flattered that we yahoos are Monday morning quarterbacking your work.... remember.....you made us what we are.
Jerry, as I understand it, the only thing that matters to intonation is the distance from the nut to the twelfth fret and the distance from the twelfth fret to the bridge. Even that is variable depending on… things. Everything else is visual esthetics. I admire your passion; it is what make you a great craftsman and luthier.
I am a believer.You don't have to convince me...I know you know what you are talking about. You have proven that over and over again. I have heard the improvements you have made in the instruments you have worked on.You are a master at your trade and I have enjoyed all of your videos.I don't doubt any of your knowledge. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge! From a fan in Idaho.
Lol lol lol!!!Jerry, please take a deep breath and blow it out! Please take your B/P down a notch or two! Please recall that you are talking mostly to the general population. Thousandths of an inch are not usually recognize by many folks. Tom and I greatly appreciated the tutorial today and we are checking our calipers both electronic and manual, lol lol! This VLOG today will carry us through the day with much laughter and amusement! Sorry minor rants there. Pardon us while we go about our business today.
I,ve been watching for a short time now and being a jack of all trades trained by a number of old time perfectionists several whom were born around the turn of the 20th century, one in particular born in 1889,, i love to see your very attempt at building the finest mandolin by a human. i believe it is the subtle human touch that makes each instrument a beautiful unique work of art. You really do have the patience of a gifted teacher which I'm a bit envious of I'm a master Horseman/teamster who was started by the man born in 1889 at the age of 6yrs and i was his only pupil and I wish i had your patience to teach people to pass on what he and others have taught me. i am an amiture mandolin player and am thrilled to see your work on all instruments. thanks for showing an old horse farmer how and why human hands make art again you are in the catagory of the great teachers in my life even though you're younger than I. thanks again for the joy and keep up the good work as long as you can.
I suspect most of the concern about not achieving “perfection” was based on your disappointment when you noticed the difference in the measurements from the fingerboard you originally used for your measurements to the slightly different one you ended up using on the mandolin. Some of us who watch with limited understanding may have have taken your disappointment to indicate there was something less perfect about the 2nd fingerboard rather than it just being different, than the other one. I think the key point is that the relative distances between the fret slots of each fingerboard are “perfect” with respect to the other slots on that same fingerboard even though they are slightly different between the two fingerboards. In any case, it will still be the “finest mandolin ever built by a human”!!
😊Jerry, your passion definitely came through! Glad you got all that off your chest! Hope the doubters got the message. I’m a guitar player, but if I was a mandolin player I’d be honored to own, and play one of your hand made instruments. Enjoying the series. God bless.
Haters gonna hate, often its because they think they know it all, yet have only had a RUclips education. I myself only have a RUclips education, but thankfully a good portion of it is yours and Caleb's videos, Passion is the reason that your attention to detail is meticulous
Excellent video. Intonation always follows the same rule... measure nut to 12th and 12th to saddle. It seems some don't understand your new fretboard is a slightly shorter scale. The scale length is causing the placement problem. Right!?
Thank you for today's lesson about intonation! I was concerned mainly because I did not understand how you were going to space out the nut end. I "assumed" you meant you would make the scale length longer! I did not realize you were going to add the fill to the headstock side. Thanks again for the intonation lesson and the bonus lesson on significance in measurement
What you say here made perfect sense in your previous video, but I think people become obsessed with perfection on paper or in the abstract. An adjustment on the original plan is not a problem, it's just an adjustment. In a perfect world you would have gotten the right fret board and it would have fit without issue. If I've learned anything from your videos these past few years is that we don't live in a perfect world and your mastery is really knowing what to do when the world does what it does. It's not easy being you, but it's certainly entertaining to watch from where I'm sitting. That being said. At this point it is the worlds finest LOOKING mandolin ever built by a human at most. We'll know it's the best ever when its strung up and you hit a chord ;). Who knows... it could be a real stinker ahahah Great work Jerry. Always a pleasure to watch.
I totally understand what you’re saying. That’s why I stated in the previous video on this mandolin, that as long as the 12th fret intonation is set by the bridge location. You actually could set the 14th fret on the joint and set the intonation with the bridge, but the nut must be still at the top end of the fingerboard.
A master craftsman / luthier /teacher. Some people come to learn and some come to disrup the class. I like the good old day when the teacher could get the paddle out. 🤣🤣🤣 Anyhow I personally look forward to watching whatever Jerry's doing he could be mowing the yard and I'm sure I would learn something .
Consistency does not necessarily equal quality when you custom make an instrument as long as the individual instrument performs and is finished at the highest level, It is just as good as any other even if they aren't consistent in shape or size. Intonation is a ratio scale as long as the ratio is correct it doesn't matter what the unit measure of the scale is you can adjust the intonation to fit.
So far,the world's greatest mandolin has had a mind of it's own, don't try getting in it's way now Jerry,this thing knows where it's bridge wants to sit,it has to be different to be the best,don't fight the direction it's taken you now,it's only going to make the action that much better, and the sound one of kind,I've always thought the design,would benefit from having the bridge farther back,reducing the forward pull,and increasing contact with the bridge,at a better angle,sorry about the naysayers,I believe it will be great.
Don't worry about getting 'passionate' Jerry. I was a sound technician for film and TV. It was a common occurence to have non sound people express there 'opinions' with great relish, so I feel your pain of having to read 'multitudinous' comments telling you how things should be. Great job in breaking it down for us luddites. Always informative. Cheers from Canada!
That was very entertaining & educational. So the finest mandolin ever built...isn't going to be perfect. Damn near but not quite. 😉 All said and done it will still be a fine work of art. Eager to see & hear the final product. 👍👍
I worked for a commercial cabinet company as an engineer. One of my responsibilities was to write programs for the big multi-point processing machine (CNC). My programs were down to the millionth of an inch. Once they left the CNC we'd be lucky if they were within 0.010" considering tool wear, materials variations and general human error. Only one thing is perfect - you know who.
Sure... go on take the easy way out. And just add some more fancy binding between the veneer and the nut. Typical work around for a short cut... 😉. Can hardly wait to see that... and that's no joke. 👍
Hi Jerry I’ve made 2 mandolins so far. Both have a scale of 14.125”. No one who has played them has said anything about that. They have somewhat different tones and I’m told by all they sound great. I’m very familiar with scale length, having built guitars for nearly 50 years. Yeah , I wish I had started sooner with mandolins. I’m 71. I feel your arthritis. Love your videos.
Oh did you ever put it on, and out here correctly today.You did'nt make me Mad!!!!! I aplaud you for telling it like it truly is....And I believe that story about the man with the Mandolin. when there set up correctly and in perfect tune, what a joy to play......
Jerry, explained it very well .it's just a matter of point A(the nut) and point B the saddle and the distance between the two regardless of initial start point.As long as they are as close in measure to each other the two points are what count not where they star from.
I agree. When I worked in aerospace, I found that some of the power plant (jet engines/turboprop/whatever) manufacturers hired blind people. Why? They could feel the inconsistencies, in the the turbofan blades. (areas that weren't completely smooth, etc) that the naked eye couldn't see. Every hole we drilled, every part installed or milled, had a tolerance. For most holes, the ED/EM (edge distance/margin) was +/- .03". The formula to find that was 2x the diameter of the fastener. The tolerances for power plants are in the thousandths of an inch. Nothing is absolutely perfect, even parts made on the giant CNC machines. (Believe me those machines are huge & are extremely accurate. They have to be.) Any way I get you Jerry. It isn't Rocket science, as even that has tolerances.👍
As you say, the intonation will be resolved by adjusting the bridge and/or saddle , there is more than enough leeway to correct any slight discrepancy over the scale length. Also, the human ear is better than any electronic tuner in balancing pitch and harmonics. I would much prefer an instrument made by you than a CNC machine, any day!! Great video Jerry!
I feel like lutherie is just superstition with extra steps and sawdust sometimes. 😂 Also my trick for getting fretboards has been clamping blocks to index the saw right up snug against, feeler gauges, and digital calipers - takes a while to get it square but the lock screw on calipers means you can get to the thousandth with some patience. Just involves a load of time and arithmetic to check back to the nut and adjust for the width of the slot, so the premade ones are a breeze, especially if you use a standard radius!
(Also all the people arguing with you in the comments reminds me of the classic joke about opinions and assholes - everyone has one, but that doesn't mean you want to know about it! Even if folks do things I wouldn't do in lutherie it's all just moot 99 times out of a hundred. Folks need to follow "A Guitar A Day" on instagram to see what bad lutherie really looks like, then maybe they'll adjust their threshold to a more reasonable one. With you 100% on the fact that the final intonation is important too - I've had guitars come in with much the similar level of error on the bridge and I just don't know how people play like that. Just sour sounding!)
Thanks for this video. I checked my intonation, and it was way off. Having watched your videos for several years, I was able to get mine as close to perfect as I could. Your videos are very informative. George in Montana
If the 20 thousandths the bridge may be toward the nut was such a "deal breaker" the bridge could be set at the "perfect" spot and then the saddle could be made so that it's intonated front edges was made so that it "favored" toward the nut by the 20 thousandths.
I think your "task"... is to make an amplifier. Your guitars and mandolins seem to be correctly intonated and a bit "louder" than most instruments or the average instrument so: mission accomplished! You spend a lot of time on cosmetic issues that one associates with a quality instrument so: mission accomplished again. Tone is subjective but I'll bet they're sweet just because of your meticulous craftsmanship. If it's within a few thousandths it's perfect for practical purposes. 😊
Well I won't try to interact with one of my favorite channels anymore if I'm going to upset you... I was just saying I didn't want you to move forward with a fingerboard that wasn't perfect as in fitting like you originally wanted, don't forget that YOU are the one that wasn't happy about the fit not us . I honestly didn't think I was going to upset you but I apologize I thought I was helping, guess I was wrong. Keep up the great work.
Well said Jerry. Not understanding intonation will make any setup confusing to anyone who does not understand. That is why there are different scales on fret boards at different lengths that when intonated sound amazing. Example would be a baritone guitar. Total different length to a standard guitar but still sounds like a standard guitar.
On a mandolin, scale length has very little effect on tone, actually. It does have a small effect on on guitars and basses, but that can be nullified by string gauge. There is no real problem here.
Im one minute in.... So silly. Anyone who's adjusted intonation should know that it's simply a matter of making micro-adjustments to the string length by moving the bridge. And if they don't know this then they've probably never adjusted intonation. And for those that have, your Saturday vlog was pretty clear: you will adjust where the bridge goes, and it still lands so close to the f-hole points, that it's nearly imperceptible, and certainly won't affect the sound.
Even a CNC machine may or may not be perfect on dimensions because someone had to command the machine and put in the correct information ,they may after building a few of the same Instruments corrected thier math but the CNC has to be programmed ,and yes what ever information was put in the CNC was most likely accurate but dosnt mean its not going to need adjustments especially on Intonation
Look like a feature? You mean be a lovely feature? Ah, you immediately clarified! Intonation before strings go on is only rough. With straight frets you only ever get a decent approximation. They make even temperment frets but I doubt they'd bring much to a mandolin unless you had perfect pitch and were hearing the difference all over the board.
Some folk are probably confused because it seemed like the spacing between frets was different for the two fretboards. It's hard to understand how the fretboards could both have the same relative spacing between notes. The thinking is probably that the manufacturer might have screwed up at least one of those two fretboards.
Out of curiosity, I checked StewMac's pre-slotted fingerboards, and they are listed as a 13 7/8 scale, which means your assumption that they have changed something is most likely correct. That said, you hit the nail on the head that it won't affect intonation. Just have to design around it, as you did, or make your own fingerboard to match the neck length, which may be off on fret intonation since it wouldn't be CNC'd. I think you made the correct choice.
You go Mr Rosa I watch you all the time and like you say nothing is perfect at least by humans and it's going to be a great Maryland maybe the best man ever built so you go guy
This mandolin will play perfectly. I’m curious though, what is the scale length of the new fretboard and the fretboard scrap? What’s the typical scale length of a classic f style mandolin?
Fretted instrument intonation Several factors affect fretted instrument intonation, including depth of the string slots in the nut, bridge saddle position, the position of the frets themselves, the bending stiffness of the string, and the technique of the musician. On fretted string instruments, pushing a string against a fret-aside from raising the string's pitch because its effective length is reduced-also causes a slight secondary raise in pitch because pushing the string increases its tension. If the instrument doesn't compensate for this with a slight increase in the distance from the bridge saddle to the fret, the note sounds sharp. Playing technique has some effect on intonation but some amount of intonation variability may be uncontrollable.[1][2] Most electric fretted string instruments have individually adjustable bridge saddles, adjustable with a screw driver or Allen wrench. Acoustic fretted instruments typically have either a floating bridge, held in place by string tension, or a fixed bridge, such as a pin bridge on an acoustic guitar. A luthier or technician adjusts a floating bridge simply by carefully changing its position until the intonation is correct. Adjusting intonation on a fixed bridge involves carefully shaping the bridge saddle with a file to alter the string's contact point.[3] Another cause of poor intonation on a fretted instrument is that the maker didn't cut the string slots in the nut deep enough. If the string is higher than fret height at the nut, the string deflection-caused pitch increase is progressively greater closer to the nut.
Ultimately the final position of the bridge is determined aurally, not by measurement. Don’t people get that? If the fretted note at the 12th fret sounds like the harmonic at the 12th fret, it can’t get much closer.
Example: The Acoustic bass was a problem, Chocolate was problem...this fretboard is just allowing the new mandolin to just look better, with just another added feature. "The Rosamiester" has it under control...
Well explained Jerry..I believe that your alinement on the head stock was a wee bit short. There is NOTHING wrong with the fret board.Your Intonation will be done when you do your set up...
To whom it may concern, when the Beatle's Paul McCartney recorded "Yesterday" he used a right handed guitar, strung it up left handed, and then tuned it down a whole step. I don't think an acoustic guitar that has left the factory right handed would have been any where close on intonation with the bass strings "shorter" than the treble ones. Jerry knows what he is talking about.
You are 100% correct, every guitar Paul played was setup right handed from the factory, Also Jimi Hendrix played a right handed Strat, & SG upside down. Amazing
I'm a lefty and done this so many times just swap the strings down half step and play! No one ever complained in the crowd they just enjoy the music. It's easy on a electric guitar to get correct intonation even flipped ( les Paul's are hardest) on a acoustic just roll with it.
okay now explain in detail the weighing of the scales when you set up a metal lathe ...lol . my brother being a scientist and way more intelligent than me just explained the process .. boy did I get a headache ..lol
I like your purfling solution to the nut gap. It will actually frame the head and the Rosa emblem, IMO.
Your solution is an elegant solution because nobody will ever know or suspect it was difference from your original plan. If you made the nut wider it would raise questions on why you did it that way. Alternately if you moved the freeboard to maintain your normal nut width, people would notice the 15th fret does not line-up exactly. That would raise questions also.
Even a master such as you at ANYTHING can't please everyone. So just keep doing what you do and shrug off the naysayers. You have top musicians coming to you for knowledge and setups. Press on
As long as the fretboard has the slots cut at the correct ratio locations for each note then it will work out fine. The important point is the precision of the fret location not the absolute scale size. Just wouldn't matter if it was a fretless mandolin, but that would be really hard to play.
Love your idea of the added headstock feature!
I am a believer.You don't have to convince me...I know you know what you are talking about. You have proven that over and over again. I have heard the improvements you have made in the instruments you have worked on.You are a master at your trade .And I have enjoyed all of your videos.
I enjoyed watching you share your passion. There will always be haters. Don’t sweat it. Where your right, you’re right. Continue doing what you do best. Basically everything lol you’re awesome Jerry. 👍🤘
Jerry by watching your videos I have learned so much about intonation and bridge placement. My archtop guitars are playing the best these old ears and a tunner can make them. And the mandolin I am trying to learn ain't to shabby either. I just want to say thanks.
Happy Monday!
You have preached to my choir and all I can say is Amen! I sort of feel like Neo in the Matrix, "I know Intonation", with your excellent instruction in this and other videos you have aired.
Fretted instruments are tuned following "EQUAL TEMPERAMENT".
Strictly speaking a "temperament" is NOT "intonation".
The only tuning called Intonation is the JUST INTONATION.
You're alright Jerry, it's the rest of the world that is out of kilter. The mandolin will turn out just fine. Thanks for all you do and the entertainment you provide. Awesom.
Great idea here Jerry, you have solved the issue in one, it will look fab and totally in keeping with the luxurious quality of this mandolin, also it will be unique to you as the luthier. genius idea, go for it. Peace and love from Bonny Scotland.
First off, of course any scale length can be made musically sound as long as the fret spacing ratios are cut accurately. But my problem with what happened here is that your fingerboard's scale length is obviously a little off from what you expected it would be. You measured the distance from the nut to the 12th fret as approximately 17.5 cm or 6.89 inches , which translates to a scale length of about 13.78 inches, give or take any error in measurement, while my understanding is that the standard scale length for an F style mandolin is 13 7/8 or 13.875 inches, which makes the scale on your fingerboard about a tenth of an inch shorter than the standard for an F style mandolin which is what shows up at your nut slot. I would expect better from a CNC cut board and it seems somebody made a mistake somewhere. It's up to you whether that discrepancy is acceptable, but I personally would want to get what I ordered and expected.
Hello Jerry and people of the channel. I have followed Jerry in his channel for more than 4 years. I learned a lot, specially about intonation. I built myself 3 guitars. Two acoustic and one classical guitar. You may glue the fretboard and the bridge slightly of position. Then you may think everything is ruined. No way. There it comes intonation to save you. If you glued everything in right position, it is fine. But if something slipped away, don't be nervous. With the help of a good tuner you will be able to find the new position for the saddle that will make your guitar work like a charm. Just watch carefully one of the Jerry's videos about intonation that you'll understand. And at the end, your guitar will be the most perfect guitar ever built by a human... LOL. Congrats to everyone.
I'm so glad you explained concepts to those who had no idea what you were talking about (probably some still don't)! I wonder how many were perfectly fine with your first explanation? Now, I wonder how many will dislike me? Do I dare send this? Thank you as always, Jerry! SIGNED, Your GOOD FRIEND, Maxey
Great to see you in full common sense flow mode here Jerry, i loved it, i know you are right. Brought a smile to my face. lol. Peace and love from Bonny Scotland.
I really enjoy learning about intonation and setup so your passion is truly appreciated!
I too also figured that the vast majority of watchers here understood the 'scale' ratios better. Adjusting the 'fit' is no big deal, and the purfling is great... something to consider adding to all future Rosa mandos. Great vid to explain in detail. Building any instrument is filled with fitting and fairing. Beautiful work Jerry, and superb education again. 👏👏
I have been doing my own guitar setups for 55 years. Everything can change the perfect intonation.. string gauge, action height. I have very high intolerance for off pitch, unless a bend is being made, and learned very very quickly to make each string just right with the Haggastrum fully adjustable floating bridge on my Guild.
Just saying you can get it perfect today. It will not be perfect tomorrow wood changes with humidity...it will never be perfect but it will be as good as any other instrument...great job.....keep up the great work..
Man ..... U did awesome on this mandolin! The whole intonation and miniscule measurement crap was blown way out of proportion! You made a gorgeous instrument sir. Blows my mind the artistry that pours out of your fingertips! Awesome!
In my 35 + years of playing, I've never seen any hand made instrument come out the exact same. And to me that is the magic in them. Good work sir. And like someone else has already said with the precut fret slots in the correct place that fretboard will be just fine.
I think some people were confused and thought the fretboard was off in the sense that the first fret was shorter than it was supposed to be or something along those lines. From what I understand it was just a slightly different scale than what you were expecting but as long as the bridge is in the right place, it will intonate just fine.
Before you start, I want you to know that I have watched all of your videos over the years and I understand intonation perfectly, thanks to the many videos you have done, explaining all about it. Thanks, Jerry.
Jerry is fired up! Jerry, you should feel flattered that we yahoos are Monday morning quarterbacking your work.... remember.....you made us what we are.
Jerry, as I understand it, the only thing that matters to intonation is the distance from the nut to the twelfth fret and the distance from the twelfth fret to the bridge. Even that is variable depending on… things. Everything else is visual esthetics.
I admire your passion; it is what make you a great craftsman and luthier.
I am a believer.You don't have to convince me...I know you know what you are talking about. You have proven that over and over again. I have heard the improvements you have made in the instruments you have worked on.You are a master at your trade and I have enjoyed all of your videos.I don't doubt any of your knowledge. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge! From a fan in Idaho.
Lol lol lol!!!Jerry, please take a deep breath and blow it out! Please take your B/P down a notch or two! Please recall that you are talking mostly to the general population. Thousandths of an inch are not usually recognize by many folks. Tom and I greatly appreciated the tutorial today and we are checking our calipers both electronic and manual, lol lol! This VLOG today will carry us through the day with much laughter and amusement! Sorry minor rants there. Pardon us while we go about our business today.
I,ve been watching for a short time now and being a jack of all trades trained by a number of old time perfectionists several whom were born around the turn of the 20th century, one in particular born in 1889,, i love to see your very attempt at building the finest mandolin by a human. i believe it is the subtle human touch that makes each instrument a beautiful unique work of art. You really do have the patience of a gifted teacher which I'm a bit envious of I'm a master Horseman/teamster who was started by the man born in 1889 at the age of 6yrs and i was his only pupil and I wish i had your patience to teach people to pass on what he and others have taught me. i am an amiture mandolin player and am thrilled to see your work on all instruments. thanks for showing an old horse farmer how and why human hands make art again you are in the catagory of the great teachers in my life even though you're younger than I. thanks again for the joy and keep up the good work as long as you can.
I suspect most of the concern about not achieving “perfection” was based on your disappointment when you noticed the difference in the measurements from the fingerboard you originally used for your measurements to the slightly different one you ended up using on the mandolin. Some of us who watch with limited understanding may have have taken your disappointment to indicate there was something less perfect about the 2nd fingerboard rather than it just being different, than the other one. I think the key point is that the relative distances between the fret slots of each fingerboard are “perfect” with respect to the other slots on that same fingerboard even though they are slightly different between the two fingerboards. In any case, it will still be the “finest mandolin ever built by a human”!!
😊Jerry, your passion definitely came through! Glad you got all that off your chest! Hope the doubters got the message. I’m a guitar player, but if I was a mandolin player I’d be honored to own, and play one of your hand made instruments. Enjoying the series. God bless.
So you're saying it was perfect, perfect!
Haters gonna hate, often its because they think they know it all, yet have only had a RUclips education.
I myself only have a RUclips education, but thankfully a good portion of it is yours and Caleb's videos, Passion is the reason that your attention to detail is meticulous
lol I appreciate the passion. Don't let the haters get under your skin.
I concur with everything you said in this video, Jerry!! I applaud and salute you my friend! You definitely have to have thick skin for sure!!
Excellent video.
Intonation always follows the same rule... measure nut to 12th and 12th to saddle.
It seems some don't understand your new fretboard is a slightly shorter scale. The scale length is causing the placement problem. Right!?
Thank you for today's lesson about intonation! I was concerned mainly because I did not understand how you were going to space out the nut end. I "assumed" you meant you would make the scale length longer! I did not realize you were going to add the fill to the headstock side. Thanks again for the intonation lesson and the bonus lesson on significance in measurement
What you say here made perfect sense in your previous video, but I think people become obsessed with perfection on paper or in the abstract. An adjustment on the original plan is not a problem, it's just an adjustment. In a perfect world you would have gotten the right fret board and it would have fit without issue. If I've learned anything from your videos these past few years is that we don't live in a perfect world and your mastery is really knowing what to do when the world does what it does. It's not easy being you, but it's certainly entertaining to watch from where I'm sitting.
That being said. At this point it is the worlds finest LOOKING mandolin ever built by a human at most. We'll know it's the best ever when its strung up and you hit a chord ;). Who knows... it could be a real stinker ahahah Great work Jerry. Always a pleasure to watch.
I totally understand what you’re saying. That’s why I stated in the previous video on this mandolin, that as long as the 12th fret intonation is set by the bridge location. You actually could set the 14th fret on the joint and set the intonation with the bridge, but the nut must be still at the top end of the fingerboard.
A master craftsman / luthier /teacher. Some people come to learn and some come to disrup the class. I like the good old day when the teacher could get the paddle out. 🤣🤣🤣 Anyhow I personally look forward to watching whatever Jerry's doing he could be mowing the yard and I'm sure I would learn something .
Consistency does not necessarily equal quality when you custom make an instrument as long as the individual instrument performs and is finished at the highest level, It is just as good as any other even if they aren't consistent in shape or size. Intonation is a ratio scale as long as the ratio is correct it doesn't matter what the unit measure of the scale is you can adjust the intonation to fit.
Jerry thanks for sharing your videos you are great an I watch in amazement at your craftsmanship thanks your friend Bill Garren in North Carolina
Now that's a rant lol !!! I would've thought everyone on here by now understood the intonation process. The purfling idea is a great one IMHO.
So far,the world's greatest mandolin has had a mind of it's own, don't try getting in it's way now Jerry,this thing knows where it's bridge wants to sit,it has to be different to be the best,don't fight the direction it's taken you now,it's only going to make the action that much better, and the sound one of kind,I've always thought the design,would benefit from having the bridge farther back,reducing the forward pull,and increasing contact with the bridge,at a better angle,sorry about the naysayers,I believe it will be great.
Don't worry about getting 'passionate' Jerry. I was a sound technician for film and TV. It was a common occurence to have non sound people express there 'opinions' with great relish, so I feel your pain of having to read 'multitudinous' comments telling you how things should be. Great job in breaking it down for us luddites. Always informative. Cheers from Canada!
That was very entertaining & educational. So the finest mandolin ever built...isn't going to be perfect. Damn near but not quite. 😉 All said and done it will still be a fine work of art. Eager to see & hear the final product. 👍👍
Has anyone asked you when you're going to mine the ore , smelt the steel and machine the tuners yet? ; ) Please keep going with the world's finest.
Hi Jerry It's Terry. Perfection is only a concept. It can NEVER actually be achieved.
I worked for a commercial cabinet company as an engineer. One of my responsibilities was to write programs for the big multi-point processing machine (CNC). My programs were down to the millionth of an inch. Once they left the CNC we'd be lucky if they were within 0.010" considering tool wear, materials variations and general human error. Only one thing is perfect - you know who.
Sure... go on take the easy way out. And just add some more fancy binding between the veneer and the nut. Typical work around for a short cut... 😉. Can hardly wait to see that... and that's no joke. 👍
Good solution to a slight issue…!
You RAWK Jerry…!!!
“Anyone who thinks they can do that, obviously doesn’t know what we are talking about “.
😂I’m go to use this line.
It’s just common sense. Thanks Jerry!
You are the master. Dont worry about the ignorant I always enjoy yor videos.. Thanks
Good show, Gerry!
Hilarious! I haven’t a clue what you are talking about but I believe every word!
Jerry, people telling you to make your own fretboard is like them telling you to go over to your metal shop and make your own tuning machines.
Gerry calm down your a genius, if only i had the money to buy one of your guitars or mandolins id be a happy camper...
.
Hi Jerry
I’ve made 2 mandolins so far. Both have a scale of 14.125”. No one who has played them has said anything about that. They have somewhat different tones and I’m told by all they sound great. I’m very familiar with scale length, having built guitars for nearly 50 years. Yeah , I wish I had started sooner with mandolins. I’m 71. I feel your arthritis. Love your videos.
Oh did you ever put it on, and out here correctly today.You did'nt make me Mad!!!!! I aplaud you for telling it like it truly is....And I believe that story about the man with the Mandolin. when there set up correctly and in perfect tune, what a joy to play......
Well stated Jerry. I loved how you put the nose picking experts in their place.
Jerry, explained it very well .it's just a matter of point A(the nut) and point B the saddle and the distance between the two regardless of initial start point.As long as they are as close in measure to each other the two points are what count not where they star from.
I agree. When I worked in aerospace, I found that some of the power plant (jet engines/turboprop/whatever) manufacturers hired blind people. Why? They could feel the inconsistencies, in the the turbofan blades. (areas that weren't completely smooth, etc) that the naked eye couldn't see. Every hole we drilled, every part installed or milled, had a tolerance. For most holes, the ED/EM (edge distance/margin) was +/- .03". The formula to find that was 2x the diameter of the fastener. The tolerances for power plants are in the thousandths of an inch. Nothing is absolutely perfect, even parts made on the giant CNC machines. (Believe me those machines are huge & are extremely accurate. They have to be.) Any way I get you Jerry. It isn't Rocket science, as even that has tolerances.👍
As you say, the intonation will be resolved by adjusting the bridge and/or saddle , there is more than enough
leeway to correct any slight discrepancy over the scale length. Also, the human ear is better than any electronic
tuner in balancing pitch and harmonics. I would much prefer an instrument made by you than a CNC machine, any day!!
Great video Jerry!
I feel like lutherie is just superstition with extra steps and sawdust sometimes. 😂 Also my trick for getting fretboards has been clamping blocks to index the saw right up snug against, feeler gauges, and digital calipers - takes a while to get it square but the lock screw on calipers means you can get to the thousandth with some patience. Just involves a load of time and arithmetic to check back to the nut and adjust for the width of the slot, so the premade ones are a breeze, especially if you use a standard radius!
(Also all the people arguing with you in the comments reminds me of the classic joke about opinions and assholes - everyone has one, but that doesn't mean you want to know about it! Even if folks do things I wouldn't do in lutherie it's all just moot 99 times out of a hundred. Folks need to follow "A Guitar A Day" on instagram to see what bad lutherie really looks like, then maybe they'll adjust their threshold to a more reasonable one. With you 100% on the fact that the final intonation is important too - I've had guitars come in with much the similar level of error on the bridge and I just don't know how people play like that. Just sour sounding!)
Thanks for this video. I checked my intonation, and it was way off. Having watched your videos for several years, I was able to get mine as close to perfect as I could. Your videos are very informative. George in Montana
You tell ‘‘em Jerry!
If the 20 thousandths the bridge may be toward the nut was such a "deal breaker" the bridge could be set at the "perfect" spot and then the saddle could be made so that it's intonated front edges was made so that it "favored" toward the nut by the 20 thousandths.
Love this video. I build hand made guitars and know exactly what you mean! Can't wait to see the finished mandolin.
If adding perfling to the head stock makes it look better, then problem solved. Good Luck Jerry.
I think your "task"... is to make an amplifier. Your guitars and mandolins seem to be correctly intonated and a bit "louder" than most instruments or the average instrument so: mission accomplished! You spend a lot of time on cosmetic issues that one associates with a quality instrument so: mission accomplished again. Tone is subjective but I'll bet they're sweet just because of your meticulous craftsmanship. If it's within a few thousandths it's perfect for practical purposes. 😊
Well I won't try to interact with one of my favorite channels anymore if I'm going to upset you... I was just saying I didn't want you to move forward with a fingerboard that wasn't perfect as in fitting like you originally wanted, don't forget that YOU are the one that wasn't happy about the fit not us . I honestly didn't think I was going to upset you but I apologize I thought I was helping, guess I was wrong. Keep up the great work.
I agree totally. To get my intonation on my mandolin, I had to move my bridge foward a quarter inch from the center of the f holes.
Explained with passion.
Well said Jerry. Not understanding intonation will make any setup confusing to anyone who does not understand. That is why there are different scales on fret boards at different lengths that when intonated sound amazing. Example would be a baritone guitar. Total different length to a standard guitar but still sounds like a standard guitar.
On a mandolin, scale length has very little effect on tone, actually. It does have a small effect on on guitars and basses, but that can be nullified by string gauge. There is no real problem here.
Jerry! Stop reading the comments! Only losers and wanna bees leave negative comments. F em. I love your great work. Thank you!
But if I don't read the comments then I don't know how I'm coming across
@@RosaStringWorks You come across just fine! Almost perfect 😉
That's why you use a tuner
Im one minute in.... So silly. Anyone who's adjusted intonation should know that it's simply a matter of making micro-adjustments to the string length by moving the bridge. And if they don't know this then they've probably never adjusted intonation. And for those that have, your Saturday vlog was pretty clear: you will adjust where the bridge goes, and it still lands so close to the f-hole points, that it's nearly imperceptible, and certainly won't affect the sound.
Seems like alot to fret about!
Even a CNC machine may or may not be perfect on dimensions because someone had to command the machine and put in the correct information ,they may after building a few of the same Instruments corrected thier math but the CNC has to be programmed ,and yes what ever information was put in the CNC was most likely accurate but dosnt mean its not going to need adjustments especially on Intonation
For me it is simple: you know , they Don't know. So be happy Jerry! Hy from France!
Bravo, Maestro!!
Look like a feature? You mean be a lovely feature?
Ah, you immediately clarified!
Intonation before strings go on is only rough. With straight frets you only ever get a decent approximation. They make even temperment frets but I doubt they'd bring much to a mandolin unless you had perfect pitch and were hearing the difference all over the board.
Some folk are probably confused because it seemed like the spacing between frets was different for the two fretboards. It's hard to understand how the fretboards could both have the same relative spacing between notes. The thinking is probably that the manufacturer might have screwed up at least one of those two fretboards.
Perfect lesson, yea i feel the same way regarding intonation,
I believe you Jerry!
Out of curiosity, I checked StewMac's pre-slotted fingerboards, and they are listed as a 13 7/8 scale, which means your assumption that they have changed something is most likely correct. That said, you hit the nail on the head that it won't affect intonation. Just have to design around it, as you did, or make your own fingerboard to match the neck length, which may be off on fret intonation since it wouldn't be CNC'd. I think you made the correct choice.
You go Mr Rosa I watch you all the time and like you say nothing is perfect at least by humans and it's going to be a great Maryland maybe the best man ever built so you go guy
Hey Jerry, it’s your mandolin, make it any scale length you want and the heck with any knucklehead that don’t like it!
This mandolin will play perfectly.
I’m curious though, what is the scale length of the new fretboard and the fretboard scrap? What’s the typical scale length of a classic f style mandolin?
It's Amazing how many people just Don't Listen.
Fretted instrument intonation
Several factors affect fretted instrument intonation, including depth of the string slots in the nut, bridge saddle position, the position of the frets themselves, the bending stiffness of the string, and the technique of the musician.
On fretted string instruments, pushing a string against a fret-aside from raising the string's pitch because its effective length is reduced-also causes a slight secondary raise in pitch because pushing the string increases its tension. If the instrument doesn't compensate for this with a slight increase in the distance from the bridge saddle to the fret, the note sounds sharp. Playing technique has some effect on intonation but some amount of intonation variability may be uncontrollable.[1][2]
Most electric fretted string instruments have individually adjustable bridge saddles, adjustable with a screw driver or Allen wrench. Acoustic fretted instruments typically have either a floating bridge, held in place by string tension, or a fixed bridge, such as a pin bridge on an acoustic guitar. A luthier or technician adjusts a floating bridge simply by carefully changing its position until the intonation is correct. Adjusting intonation on a fixed bridge involves carefully shaping the bridge saddle with a file to alter the string's contact point.[3]
Another cause of poor intonation on a fretted instrument is that the maker didn't cut the string slots in the nut deep enough. If the string is higher than fret height at the nut, the string deflection-caused pitch increase is progressively greater closer to the nut.
Ultimately the final position of the bridge is determined aurally, not by measurement. Don’t people get that? If the fretted note at the 12th fret sounds like the harmonic at the 12th fret, it can’t get much closer.
Example: The Acoustic bass was a problem, Chocolate was problem...this fretboard is just allowing the new mandolin to just look better, with just another added feature. "The Rosamiester" has it under control...
I got it the first time so no issues here. 👌
Great video, when it’s by hand its always a journey for the luthier for sure things change as go ,if your not a problem solver your in trouble lol
Well explained Jerry..I believe that your alinement on the head stock was a wee bit short. There is NOTHING wrong with the fret board.Your Intonation will be done when you do your set up...
To whom it may concern, when the Beatle's Paul McCartney recorded "Yesterday" he used a right handed guitar, strung it up left handed, and then tuned it down a whole step. I don't think an acoustic guitar that has left the factory right handed would have been any where close on intonation with the bass strings "shorter" than the treble ones. Jerry knows what he is talking about.
You are 100% correct, every guitar Paul played was setup right handed from the factory, Also Jimi Hendrix played a right handed Strat, & SG upside down. Amazing
I'm a lefty and done this so many times just swap the strings down half step and play! No one ever complained in the crowd they just enjoy the music. It's easy on a electric guitar to get correct intonation even flipped ( les Paul's are hardest) on a acoustic just roll with it.
okay now explain in detail the weighing of the scales when you set up a metal lathe ...lol . my brother being a scientist and way more intelligent than me just explained the process .. boy did I get a headache ..lol
I love the passion. Stay the course.
It's a queston of physics. So long as the proper conditions are met by adjustments, there is no problem, IMO.