Parallel to the bridge? From calculus tangent is making contact with the surface of the would be curve which in this context is the bridge at a point or line?
I am using several sources to teach myself to play violin, but yours is far and away the best source for clear technical help. Thank you for having such a polished style; it is clearly the result of lots of hard work on top of intelligence.
I am in the engineering field, and I understand how important to understand the engineering part of things. You teach exactly what a Learner needs to know. Your videos already helped me improve a lot. Most of my stubborn bad habits disappeared. Thank you.
As a violin-newbee I see all of my problems are being addressed in your videos ;-) I do take lessons, but your videos are a great as they are just 'out there' and I can watch them and learn from them anytime I need to and want to. Thank you for putting these videos on RUclips!
This has been plaguing me for months, and the revelation for me was that I long ago decided that I like a looser bow. I tried your pencil trick and everything fell into place. So simple! Thank you for putting this together.
Glad it helped! It's a sticky problem, but you will overcome it. Did I mention in the video the trick of LOWERING YOUR ELBOW on the bow arm slightly??? I have discovered that trick while reading the Galamian book....and WOW....it's very effective for stopping the bounce.
I posted a comment about what I thought was "collet" motion. I removed it when I reqlized it was in actuallity, colle. I've never heard that term used in the years I've played. This was a useful video. I've pretty much resolved the bouncing bow issue after playing about 11 years (with some really TERRIBLE) teachers. I'm trying to unlearn som eawful habits. Actually, your videos are very practical & you communicate clearly - something that many "teachers" fail to appreciate.
I TOTALLY agree, Dee. When my bounce problem starts coming back, I start FOCUSING on it, and it almost CAUSES it to happen just from thinking about it!!! I liked someone's suggestion about thinking about Portato, or a "Loure" motion, to eliminate the bounce. I think that engages all the right thoughts and muscles.
Thanks so much for this! I just bought my first violin 3 days ago and I'm learning how to play on my own with the help of you generous people on youtube who give tutorials. 😆
How's it going, DR? Teaching yourself is an awesome challenge. RUclips is an excellent resource. If you get overwhelmed, or want more organized, systemmatic content, feel free to check out my beginner's course at www.reddesertviolin.com. But I wish you the BEST OF LUCK!
right? I'm so grateful for tutors on this site. Not everyone can afford and/or even find a tutor in their area, like me. :( (also I highly recommend Allison the online violin & piano tutor on youtube here. She gives free lessons and sheet music in her videos! )
Yes, a tense bow arm, or perhaps a tense bow hand. There are other factors as well, but eliminating tension is a good place to start! Keep up the great work!
OH my gosh! I had no idea that you had made a video concerning this issue! I've been struggling with this for a long time, and for most of my violin playing years I was convinced that it was just nerves, but then I realized that it couldn't be because it would happen while I was playing by myself, and obviously I am not nervous when I am just practicing in my room alone. So I have been searching for answers. This video has helped me tremendously! I will definitely put some of it into practice (haha) tomorrow. My teacher when I was in college was completely stumped by my problem because I was her first student to ever encounter it, and she didn't have a clue how to fix it. Thank you so much for all of your videos, they are extremely helpful to me.
Keith--I am very glad it will help you. Also, notice the comment below about VIBRATO possibly contributing to the bouncy bow. You will be able to tell if it is related to your vibrato or not. Make a list of the suspects, and investigate them one by one. Soon, you will have a short list of 2-3 main culprits, and you can eliminate them one by one! (Remember to relax your fingers, and don't use an over-zealous colle'...) Good luck!
Bow bouncing has been driving me nuts. I used to not have a problem with it but now as soon as I notice it it gets worse the more I try to correct it. Thanks so much for this video, I'm going to study it to death and hopefully stomp this problem into the ground.
Andrew Wang LOLOL Andrew. You sound like the way I felt about 15 years ago. But, try to "zen" it....if you fight too much, it will only make it worse. The BIGGEST thing that helped me was learning to choose the appropriate "plane" for my bow, AND choose the correct elbow height. My elbow was too high, which I thought was helping, but it was making it worse. It felt really weird to lower my elbow.....but it did help kill the bounce.
Oh I see, your bow hold is probably not firm enough. Try to fix it but don't worry about it all that much, I find when I don't worry about a particular detail, I just automatically do it right.
MercedesKawasaki that's sound advice. Being tense helps no one. I think it's interesting that when practising, you have to think MORE, but thinking too much (particularly during a performance) can make problems crop up where you totally didn't realize it before. A balance has to be struck at all times.
@GoldenUdder Thanks for the compliment! I am realizing that this bouncing bow thing is a VERY common affliction! It takes LOTS of finesse to finally eliminate it!
May I just say that your teaching video is really helpful, you always can point out the underlying factor of some problems that I suffer. Thank you so so much and I will definitely keep watching your videos.
I love all your videos. Your ability to explain the technicalities and problems of playing the violin are the best on the internet and have helped me enormously! Thank you for imparting your insights!
I've noticed that the bow bounces when I am not paying attention to the 'weight shifts' in the bow as it is drawn across the string. The bow is like a lever with a dynamic fulcrum, and the right arm needs to constantly match the load of the bow's weight at any point along the bow's length in a continuous smooth way. If any 'twitchyness' occurs near the balancing point, there can be bouncing.
I'm glad it helped! If you find that the bounce comes back, just go down the checklist: bow tension, hand tension, wrist tension, crooked bow, bow plane, play upside down, tilt the bow, etc. You'll figure it out! (Hopefully, the bounce won't come back!!!) --L
Thank you so much!! I played in elementary and middle school, but never had a private teacher and such didn't learn any of these skills. Now I'm returning as an adult and your video was incredibly helpful. I appreciate you including explanations about the theory behind the movement and how the bow and string interact. Very informative. My tone has already improved.
SO glad it has helped, Monica! Keep up your good work, and good luck to you! If you need more help than RUclips can provide, check out my online classes at www.RedDesertViolin.com. Take care!
Thank you for the analysis based on the balance point (center of gravity) of the bow! You might want to try bowing while holding the bow with just the middle finger and thumb. My bow bounce went away when I did this! I fixed my bow bounce by more smoothly transitioning from applying pressure with my pinkie to applying pressure with my index finger when the balance point of the bow passed over the string. Thanks again!
Thanks for your input, Emily Rose. You nailed it....the pressure of the bow on the string makes a HUGE difference! And people try to press harder to AVOID making the string bounce, and that just makes the problem worse!
Here's another tip to eliminate unwanted bounce (haven't read all the comments so it may have already been mentioned). Identify and relax any points of tension or holding in the physical body, from feet up through the back, shoulders, neck, and into the bow arm. Find balance in the body! Often bouncing occurs due to the elbow, wrist, or fingers on bow, held rigidly, or with tension, and not moving freely. Avoiding the bow change finger flop (ref: the collée motion) is also crucial!
@Kirkseyyang Thanks for the breathing comment, Kirkseyyang. You are SO RIGHT. I know when I am nervous, I focus on my breathing, deep inhale, slow exhale....it calms me down instantly. And yes, shallow breathing WILL add to shaky muscles. Also.....I recently taught a webcam lesson, and worked with the student on his bouncy bow for 15 minutes before he told me that he was extremely nervous and that his bow usually doesn't bounce! YES, nerves cause bouncing!
Your use of the music stand in your demonstration was insightful. The motion of the bow across the string, when not perpendicular, appears to 'reflect' some of the vibration back to the stick, increasing the likelihood of a bounce.
Thank you for your videos! I'm returning to playing after about 25 years, and can't afford lessons just yet, and this is SO very helpful, thanks again!
I just want to say this still helps some people. I just started a bit more than 2 weeks ago and it's exciting, also somewhat funny that such a "simple" thing (intellectually) can be this complex to execute properly. Today I had the bounciest bow of all when I played for my teacher, just a simple practice piece with a lot of slow open strings. It was worse than a week ago when I started practicing it. Super disappointing and frustrating. I didn't feel really nervous or anything but I guess a bit was enough. It's kind of funny to see these things I know from twoset memes already apply to me. Tomorrow I'll try to pay attention to all of these aspects and try some more. Thanks for the explanation, your explanations are the best, at least from an adult perspective.
BREATHE. Never underestimate the calming power of oxygen to the brain! Consciously breathe slowly and deeply. You reduce your bow bounce with pressure, because you are depressing the bow's abilitly to "spring upwards". It's a good idea, but let me give you something better: Instead of "pressure", think of adding relaxed arm weight, which will help you relax your bow hand, further reducing shakes and bouncing. I have a vid about bow weight. Let me know if you can't find it. Good luck! --L
I play violin for 3 years and I have this problem for a long time, I am going to do all of the things you said and I am gonna solve it, thank you a lot, you are a very good teacher
Yes, it's such a common problem...and hard to solve because SO MANY THINGS can cause it. Just pay attention, tend to all the details, and you will figure it out.
Hi Trenton Wow. That is such a simple question, and it used to confuse me too! The answer is not easy, but in general, YES, reset your bow in the breath mark. In violin, there are places where we have to "cheat" the value of a note in order to execute our bowings properly. So when you see a breath mark, generally, pick up your bow quickly, set it silently back toward the frog, and be ready to play your next note. GREAT question!!!
Hi Patsy, thank you for your comment and I'm glad you like my hair! The bouncing bow is big blight when you have it. But you just have to keep following the clues and consider all the many possible causes and eliminate them one by one. You will eventually figure it out. Keep up the good work and good luck!
You are very welcome! Glad to know my instruction style is working for you. Paying attention to the technique and control of the experts is a GREAT habit to get into. Keep up the good work!
GREAT QUESTION. I understand the problem. When I say "perpendicular", I mean to try to position the bow so that it is as close to being PARALLEL to the ground as possible, without hitting the next lower string. This will allow gravity to help you, and it will also minimize the "springiness" of your bow on the "Springiness" of the string. It sort of allows you to bow "uphill", which keeps you more grounded than bowing "downhill". I hope this helps! --L
Excellent video thank you! It is worth to say that the last "gravity" exercice can - or must- be performed also with the reverse gravity, playing while laying down on the floor with vertical violin (violin head ponting at the ceiling) , so youl'll have the 2 gravity options...
congratulations on your videos,You are so incredible clear when you explain something and that an art, also the imagination explaining things is so genuine. Brava ! I play viola for 15 years already and I still struggle with tiny or micro bouncing of the bow , and recently I've noticed that when I changed strings violently, or without the right preparation, that's is when it happens ( in my case). thats why when I heard you talking about the bow perpendicularity, I think thats really the key !
Re - those sensitive long pianissimi where unwanted shake or jittering can occur on the upper third of the bow, it can help gently following the bow (movng slowly) with the violin to help relax the upper arm.
Nice video, thank you very much for your advices. I am also a violinist and teacher. For me i think the most common causes (besides stiffness) of the bounce are: 1. players are lifting the bow when they change from up bow to down bow, like picking up a basketball and drop it again. 2. many student bows are too soft and frog heavy. Hope it helps. thanks.
Wow, your video has helped me so much, thank you very much for this detailed and insightful video! I was going smoothly through suzuki in every single aspect but one, bowing, my bow bounces like hell, I did everything everyone told me but it didn't help and I couldn't take anymore, so many bow exercises were killing the joy of it, but you just boosted my progress!
Amen to everything you said! Cool screen name, but the way! Yes, the colle' can be deadly to adding to the bounce. Balance is also huge, as is tension! Good points, all.
Wow I got to 4:40 is and raised my elbow and the bloody bouncing just disappeared. Thank you so much I’ll watch and study the rest of the video with pleasure but I think I’m cured now. Thanks again Russell in Peru
a-ah, this 'equi-distant angle' made it clear to me. So I guess double stopping is a good diagnostic (as always) , cause there is only one possible angle you must keep from the beginning to the end of your bowing. I actually realized that in my case bouncing occurs more often on chords and double-stops, so this may really be the issue. Thanks!
@ShadowProgs LOL! I felt pretty stupid doing it too.....but it sort of helps us to understand the difference between GRAVITY, as opposed to OUR OWN muscle effort on the bow! Here's to practicing up-side-down!
Yeah, I don't know why teachers avoid the subject of colle'. It's not that hard to teach. I don't teach my beginners about colle', because they have enough to worry about. But by Suzuki Book 3, or end of Book 2, the topic should come up. I'm glad you are finding some answers now! Better late than never!
I was making down strokes in that 'Danger zone" plus dropping my shoulder and slowing down bow speed to much. IT was driving me nuts. Thanks for the awesome video!
Many thanks for taking the time to puzzle it out and explain! A few of those factors effect me, but it would've taken me forever to recognize the 'angle of attack' variable, which looks like my main issue.
Very helpful, thanks. It seemed for me that playing closer to the bridge helped reduced bounce, but I’ll have to rest it out some more. Also, the way we place our left hand fingers seems to affect it too - placing them too hard, or starting vibrato too soon also seems to increase bounce.
Your videos have been a great help to me, getting back into playing violin. Analogies are nice and clear, too. This one in particular, though, is a massive help. I'm sure Kenny Loggins was annoyed with me always bowing in the danger zone. Thank you so very much. Now back to vibrato practice...
I rarely have had any bow bounce, but every time I have, I had to take a breath and consciously relax my bowing wrist and forearm.... that was all it was. That was it, nothing more. I was surprised you didn't list that one! :) It's usually when I'm learning something new/difficult and I am mildly frustrated and concentrating too hard. I just need to relax the arm a bit and have more fun.
this solves my problem! thank you! i'm really new to violin(i don't own one yet but a friend of mine let me use his electric violin) and i keep experiencing bounce on the danger zone that you mentioned while doing open string exercises.
Reminds me of getting hauled by a tow truck ... really! Driver explained that the weight of the car was redistributing his weight, in effect lightening the weight over his front axle and creating a fulcrum over his back axle. As we went over bumps, front end of my car bounced and pushed on the hitch, lightened his front wheels, and exaggerated bounce. So stiffen the pinky, have a heavy arm behind the fulcrum, which is our "circle" of thumb and second finger...I'm starting to see a similarity
@jdsherri That's true, except that it wouldn't be quite the same, because you'd have to fight to keep your bow from falling toward the bridge. But it's not a bad idea.
I'm glad it helped you. I find that my "unwanted bounce" comes back once in awhile, and I always have to figure out one of the many ways to get rid of it. But, it gets easier and easier to ANTICIPATE, and ELIMINATE the bounce. Good luck! --L
@aimson Sorry for the delayed response. I do have some suggestions for double stops....well, it's not just for double stops. Of course, try to MINIMIZE the size of your string crossings, and tilting the bow ever so slightly can really kill the bounce. I love your tip about HORIZONTAL movement rather than VERTICAL. Good point.....especially true for double stops! --L
@AHHmava Even if you can find MOMENTS where you can relax your shoulders....that will help a ton. And eventually, you can turn your relaxation from "moments" to minutes, and eventually to constant relaxation. But you will find such relief in those "moments" that it will motivate you to relax more and more. Good luck!
I have only had my violin one month and had two lessons, so a complete beginner, but can get a nice sound. I occasionally get some bounce, my teacher said it is too much upward pressure from the thumb which is competing with the downward pressure from the fingers above the bow which causes it. As I'm a beginner I haven't completely got rid of it yet, but often it seems I am pressing up with my thumb without realising. A phrase which I have read that I find helpful is "you should try to feel the weight of the bow with your thumb". I also had my thumb stuck rigidly bent which I have been told is wrong, as it should be more relaxed and straighten slightly at times. Sorry if I am stating obvious things.
It is not obvious at all! Thank you for your feedback! There are a million ways of looking at this problem, and this thumb thing might help someone else. Keep up the good work!
@RedDesertViolin yes you can :) lol i deleted cuz i made a typo but i guess i didnt repost when i fixed it. (opps). i was also going to say you can hold you finger out and rest the bow near the tip and pretend to change strings, now do it close to the frog. if you do it wrong, like just lowering you bow hand, you can feel how much force you put on you finger cuz your finger is lifting the end of the bow. i practiced doing it and keeping the even pressure on my finger. idk if i explaned it well
Thank you thank you thank you soo much!!!!!! This is exactly what I needed!!! As soon as I watched the video and focused on all those little details the bounce went away and I was playing much better😄😄😄
I have dramatically reduced my Bow Bouncing. I memorize the speed at which my downward stoke bounces my Bow. I slightly angle my Bow at less than North North East . While doing my downward stoke, with my angled Bow, I drag my bow from the fingerboard to the middle or near the Bridge, depending what I want to do and the sound I want to make. When my Bow is perpendicular to the Bridge, I call it pointing to the North. I am without a Teacher and making a surgical study of the violin playing.
Great video for me because I know now why my pinky is straight when bowing. My teacher never corrected me. Also, the perpendicular and bending over to bow tips are great tips! Thank you! Bad habits can develop if not corrected!
this is awesome, thank you so much for this well taught piece of advice. I'm not a violin player, but sometimes I record a few violin notes on my music, and this has helped me a lot.
Very informative video with good tips on how to avoid bow bounce. But I would like to add that the quality of the bow can have a drastic effect on bow bouncing. I use a carbon fiber bow due to the fact that I simply can't afford a pernambuco bow. But just the other day I tried to use my fathers bow on his violin and had to put a considerable amount of effort into keeping the bow from bouncing. He has a brazil wood bow and it's a lot more flimsy than my carbon bow. The stick isn't nearly as stout as my carbon bow, and even more flimsy than the brazil wood bow that I no longer use that came with my violin. When I loosened the bow enough to where it would no longer bounce I found that when I really went to get down into the strings for a bold sound the bow hairs bottomed out on the stick. So keep in mind that the quality of the bow also has a lot to do with bouncing. I'll be lending my carbon bow to my father for a few weeks to see how he likes it in comparison to his bow.
Jeff, I agree totally. Not only the flimsy versus firm, but also the balance point of the bow, and the different "camber" (curve) of each bow will affect its bounciness.
+Red Desert Violin Thank you! I've just seen your crooked bow video two days ago and promptly went about correcting it. It was very clear! (Scrub a dirty doggie!) Now the bounce seems to be worse but I'm not particularly worried. Think it's my muscles adjusting to the unnatural angle since I've been bowing crooked for months.
Amazing tips! So helpful! I tend to hold my bow too tight and cant seem to curve little finger. Ill try to pay attention to all these things now. I really enjoyed this. Great teaching!
Think of everything in violin as a CIRCLE. Hold your bow like you are holding an egg. Vibrato is like a circle. Bowing is like a circle. Circles circles circles!
Thanks for the video! The idea of bending over so the scroll is perpendicular to the floor helped me identify a problem with the motion of my bow arm. (It's hard to describe, but I found that on the down bow, the upper arm has to move back a little to get out of the way and allow the forearm to follow through.) I also noticed that the problem was worse on the A string than on the D string, so I adjusted my shoulder rest to reduce the tilt of the violin. To my surprise, I was able to eliminate the unwanted bounces within a day.
Jason, this was so cool to read. Glad it helped! You said something that really got my attention.....how tall are you? Because if you are quite tall, you have just explained to me how to help my tall students. (moving the upper arm BACK a little to get out of the way..........) Please write back......I'd really like to know how tall you are.
I'm not very tall, just 5'8". For me, it wasn't a matter of creating space for a long bow arm, but more a need to relax my shoulder (my Alexander Technique teacher says it's actually the sternoclavicular joint) so that it was free to move, just as the elbow, wrist and fingers are free to move. One exercise that helped me is to repeat short bows on a single note, near the middle of the bow, allowing only one part of the bow arm to move at a time (shoulder or SC joint, elbow, and finally wrist/fingers). Two of the areas are locked in place while the 3rd does all of the moving. This helped me to learn to relax each part of the bow arm and feel how each part contributes to a normal bow stroke.
@savblanco Chris-- I think your description is perfect. That is exactly what has to happen. It's a really tough transition to get from the lower half of the bow past the "bounce zone" as you cleverly coined it, and then into the upper half, because each half of the bow uses different muscle combinations. I like your description. Thanks! --L
Your videos are all very interesting and useful! I solved one of my problems watching your video about bow hold (the trick of lean the pinky on the outer side of the "exagon")! The bouncing bow is another one of my hateful problems, but now I'm solving it by concentrate myself to keep all the body and the shoulders particularly relaxed, but it takes some time :-D Good job! ;-)
0:58
1:18 bow hair tightness
2:55 sounding point
3:40 arm/pinky
4:45 appropriate colle
5:41 perpendicular to the string/tangent to bridge
9:12 reverse gravity exercise
Parallel to the bridge? From calculus tangent is making contact with the surface of the would be curve which in this context is the bridge at a point or line?
Thank you so much! Came here looking for this information in the comments. Very helpful :)
@@Deluge4000 you are welcome
I am using several sources to teach myself to play violin, but yours is far and away the best source for clear technical help. Thank you for having such a polished style; it is clearly the result of lots of hard work on top of intelligence.
I am in the engineering field, and I understand how important to understand the engineering part of things. You teach exactly what a Learner needs to know. Your videos already helped me improve a lot. Most of my stubborn bad habits disappeared.
Thank you.
I just started learning collé and my bow started bouncing on the down bow... this has solved it for me, thank you!
I am SO happy to hear that!
As a violin-newbee I see all of my problems are being addressed in your videos ;-) I do take lessons, but your videos are a great as they are just 'out there' and I can watch them and learn from them anytime I need to and want to. Thank you for putting these videos on RUclips!
This has been plaguing me for months, and the revelation for me was that I long ago decided that I like a looser bow. I tried your pencil trick and everything fell into place. So simple! Thank you for putting this together.
Glad it helped! It's a sticky problem, but you will overcome it. Did I mention in the video the trick of LOWERING YOUR ELBOW on the bow arm slightly??? I have discovered that trick while reading the Galamian book....and WOW....it's very effective for stopping the bounce.
I posted a comment about what I thought was "collet" motion. I removed it when I reqlized it was in actuallity, colle. I've never heard that term used in the years I've played. This was a useful video. I've pretty much resolved the bouncing bow issue after playing about 11 years (with some really TERRIBLE) teachers. I'm trying to unlearn som eawful habits. Actually, your videos are very practical & you communicate clearly - something that many "teachers" fail to appreciate.
I TOTALLY agree, Dee. When my bounce problem starts coming back, I start FOCUSING on it, and it almost CAUSES it to happen just from thinking about it!!! I liked someone's suggestion about thinking about Portato, or a "Loure" motion, to eliminate the bounce. I think that engages all the right thoughts and muscles.
Thanks so much for this! I just bought my first violin 3 days ago and I'm learning how to play on my own with the help of you generous people on youtube who give tutorials. 😆
How's it going, DR? Teaching yourself is an awesome challenge. RUclips is an excellent resource. If you get overwhelmed, or want more organized, systemmatic content, feel free to check out my beginner's course at www.reddesertviolin.com. But I wish you the BEST OF LUCK!
it's going well thank you so much! :)
right? I'm so grateful for tutors on this site. Not everyone can afford and/or even find a tutor in their area, like me. :( (also I highly recommend Allison the online violin & piano tutor on youtube here. She gives free lessons and sheet music in her videos! )
How deep you have investigated !Mind blowing !!!
Thank you for this video too.
Yes, a tense bow arm, or perhaps a tense bow hand. There are other factors as well, but eliminating tension is a good place to start! Keep up the great work!
OH my gosh! I had no idea that you had made a video concerning this issue! I've been struggling with this for a long time, and for most of my violin playing years I was convinced that it was just nerves, but then I realized that it couldn't be because it would happen while I was playing by myself, and obviously I am not nervous when I am just practicing in my room alone. So I have been searching for answers. This video has helped me tremendously! I will definitely put some of it into practice (haha) tomorrow. My teacher when I was in college was completely stumped by my problem because I was her first student to ever encounter it, and she didn't have a clue how to fix it. Thank you so much for all of your videos, they are extremely helpful to me.
Keith--I am very glad it will help you. Also, notice the comment below about VIBRATO possibly contributing to the bouncy bow. You will be able to tell if it is related to your vibrato or not. Make a list of the suspects, and investigate them one by one. Soon, you will have a short list of 2-3 main culprits, and you can eliminate them one by one! (Remember to relax your fingers, and don't use an over-zealous colle'...) Good luck!
Bow bouncing has been driving me nuts. I used to not have a problem with it but now as soon as I notice it it gets worse the more I try to correct it. Thanks so much for this video, I'm going to study it to death and hopefully stomp this problem into the ground.
Andrew Wang LOLOL Andrew. You sound like the way I felt about 15 years ago. But, try to "zen" it....if you fight too much, it will only make it worse. The BIGGEST thing that helped me was learning to choose the appropriate "plane" for my bow, AND choose the correct elbow height. My elbow was too high, which I thought was helping, but it was making it worse. It felt really weird to lower my elbow.....but it did help kill the bounce.
+Andrew Wang Buy a better bow, man. I did it and it's perfect now.
MercedesKawasaki I think it's honestly my technique that needs improving. My bow's pretty good.
Oh I see, your bow hold is probably not firm enough. Try to fix it but don't worry about it all that much, I find when I don't worry about a particular detail, I just automatically do it right.
MercedesKawasaki that's sound advice. Being tense helps no one.
I think it's interesting that when practising, you have to think MORE, but thinking too much (particularly during a performance) can make problems crop up where you totally didn't realize it before. A balance has to be struck at all times.
@GoldenUdder Thanks for the compliment! I am realizing that this bouncing bow thing is a VERY common affliction! It takes LOTS of finesse to finally eliminate it!
May I just say that your teaching video is really helpful, you always can point out the underlying factor of some problems that I suffer. Thank you so so much and I will definitely keep watching your videos.
I love all your videos. Your ability to explain the technicalities and problems of playing the violin are the best on the internet and have helped me enormously! Thank you for imparting your insights!
Yes, it's a complicated concept, I'm really glad you understood what I was trying to say. It was key for me, as well.
I've noticed that the bow bounces when I am not paying attention to the 'weight shifts' in the bow as it is drawn across the string. The bow is like a lever with a dynamic fulcrum, and the right arm needs to constantly match the load of the bow's weight at any point along the bow's length in a continuous smooth way. If any 'twitchyness' occurs near the balancing point, there can be bouncing.
THAT was extremely well stated! Wow, you just hit the nail on the head. Thank you for that!
I'm glad it helped! If you find that the bounce comes back, just go down the checklist: bow tension, hand tension, wrist tension, crooked bow, bow plane, play upside down, tilt the bow, etc. You'll figure it out! (Hopefully, the bounce won't come back!!!) --L
Thank you so much!! I played in elementary and middle school, but never had a private teacher and such didn't learn any of these skills. Now I'm returning as an adult and your video was incredibly helpful. I appreciate you including explanations about the theory behind the movement and how the bow and string interact. Very informative. My tone has already improved.
SO glad it has helped, Monica! Keep up your good work, and good luck to you! If you need more help than RUclips can provide, check out my online classes at www.RedDesertViolin.com. Take care!
@sba49 Thanks for the nice compliment! I'm glad you are benefitting from them. More coming soon! --L
Thank you for the analysis based on the balance point (center of gravity) of the bow! You might want to try bowing while holding the bow with just the middle finger and thumb. My bow bounce went away when I did this! I fixed my bow bounce by more smoothly transitioning from applying pressure with my pinkie to applying pressure with my index finger when the balance point of the bow passed over the string. Thanks again!
Thanks for your input, Emily Rose.
You nailed it....the pressure of the bow on the string makes a HUGE difference! And people try to press harder to AVOID making the string bounce, and that just makes the problem worse!
Here's another tip to eliminate unwanted bounce (haven't read all the comments so it may have already been mentioned). Identify and relax any points of tension or holding in the physical body, from feet up through the back, shoulders, neck, and into the bow arm. Find balance in the body! Often bouncing occurs due to the elbow, wrist, or fingers on bow, held rigidly, or with tension, and not moving freely. Avoiding the bow change finger flop (ref: the collée motion) is also crucial!
@Kirkseyyang Thanks for the breathing comment, Kirkseyyang. You are SO RIGHT. I know when I am nervous, I focus on my breathing, deep inhale, slow exhale....it calms me down instantly. And yes, shallow breathing WILL add to shaky muscles.
Also.....I recently taught a webcam lesson, and worked with the student on his bouncy bow for 15 minutes before he told me that he was extremely nervous and that his bow usually doesn't bounce! YES, nerves cause bouncing!
Your use of the music stand in your demonstration was insightful. The motion of the bow across the string, when not perpendicular, appears to 'reflect' some of the vibration back to the stick, increasing the likelihood of a bounce.
Thank you for your videos! I'm returning to playing after about 25 years, and can't afford lessons just yet, and this is SO very helpful, thanks again!
I just want to say this still helps some people. I just started a bit more than 2 weeks ago and it's exciting, also somewhat funny that such a "simple" thing (intellectually) can be this complex to execute properly. Today I had the bounciest bow of all when I played for my teacher, just a simple practice piece with a lot of slow open strings. It was worse than a week ago when I started practicing it. Super disappointing and frustrating. I didn't feel really nervous or anything but I guess a bit was enough. It's kind of funny to see these things I know from twoset memes already apply to me. Tomorrow I'll try to pay attention to all of these aspects and try some more. Thanks for the explanation, your explanations are the best, at least from an adult perspective.
Thanks for writing! Glad the video is still having a positive effect! Only 2 weeks in? You are going to do great! Good luck!
BREATHE. Never underestimate the calming power of oxygen to the brain! Consciously breathe slowly and deeply.
You reduce your bow bounce with pressure, because you are depressing the bow's abilitly to "spring upwards". It's a good idea, but let me give you something better:
Instead of "pressure", think of adding relaxed arm weight, which will help you relax your bow hand, further reducing shakes and bouncing. I have a vid about bow weight. Let me know if you can't find it.
Good luck! --L
I'm starting to get okay at finding the notes on my violin and now I can focus on mechanics like bowing and intonation. This video is great - thanks!
Ling Ling workout at the end xD
Love Ling Ling! :-P
I play violin for 3 years and I have this problem for a long time, I am going to do all of the things you said and I am gonna solve it, thank you a lot, you are a very good teacher
Yes, it's such a common problem...and hard to solve because SO MANY THINGS can cause it. Just pay attention, tend to all the details, and you will figure it out.
Open strings are a Great strategy for mastering tone and technique! Keep it up!
Hi Trenton
Wow. That is such a simple question, and it used to confuse me too! The answer is not easy, but in general, YES, reset your bow in the breath mark. In violin, there are places where we have to "cheat" the value of a note in order to execute our bowings properly. So when you see a breath mark, generally, pick up your bow quickly, set it silently back toward the frog, and be ready to play your next note. GREAT question!!!
Learning violin on my own is hard. I probably would have given up if not for your videos. Now, I'm glad I stuck it out. Thank you so much.
Rakko Wakko That is music to my ears! KEEP IT UP! Getting past the first beginner's hump is the worst part! The worst is behind you now!
I used to have a terrible time with bow bounce. This is very helpful. And . . . your hair is very cute.
Hi Patsy, thank you for your comment and I'm glad you like my hair!
The bouncing bow is big blight when you have it. But you just have to keep following the clues and consider all the many possible causes and eliminate them one by one. You will eventually figure it out. Keep up the good work and good luck!
You are very welcome! Glad to know my instruction style is working for you. Paying attention to the technique and control of the experts is a GREAT habit to get into. Keep up the good work!
GREAT QUESTION. I understand the problem. When I say "perpendicular", I mean to try to position the bow so that it is as close to being PARALLEL to the ground as possible, without hitting the next lower string. This will allow gravity to help you, and it will also minimize the "springiness" of your bow on the "Springiness" of the string. It sort of allows you to bow "uphill", which keeps you more grounded than bowing "downhill". I hope this helps! --L
Insanely helpful! Not many people get straight to the point! And you covered everything I was doing wrong! My strokes sound much better now!
SOOO glad, Brett. Good luck to you!
Excellent video thank you! It is worth to say that the last "gravity" exercice can - or must- be performed also with the reverse gravity, playing while laying down on the floor with vertical violin (violin head ponting at the ceiling) , so youl'll have the 2 gravity options...
I like this idea!
congratulations on your videos,You are so incredible clear when you explain something and that an art, also the imagination explaining things is so genuine. Brava !
I play viola for 15 years already and I still struggle with tiny or micro bouncing of the bow , and recently I've noticed that when I changed strings violently, or without the right preparation, that's is when it happens ( in my case). thats why when I heard you talking about the bow perpendicularity, I think thats really the key !
I discovered that I was not holding my bow perpendicular to the string and this was causing the bounce. Thanks again :)
George
Re - those sensitive long pianissimi where unwanted shake or jittering can occur on the upper third of the bow, it can help gently following the bow (movng slowly) with the violin to help relax the upper arm.
Nice video, thank you very much for your advices.
I am also a violinist and teacher. For me i think the most common causes (besides stiffness) of the bounce are:
1. players are lifting the bow when they change from up bow to down bow, like picking up a basketball and drop it again.
2. many student bows are too soft and frog heavy.
Hope it helps. thanks.
Thanks for your video, was quite explicit and helpful. I am inspired to go through all your videos
Wow, your video has helped me so much, thank you very much for this detailed and insightful video!
I was going smoothly through suzuki in every single aspect but one, bowing, my bow bounces like hell, I did everything everyone told me but it didn't help and I couldn't take anymore, so many bow exercises were killing the joy of it, but you just boosted my progress!
I am SO happy to hear this comment, Ivo. Hooray! Keep up the good work!
Amen to everything you said! Cool screen name, but the way! Yes, the colle' can be deadly to adding to the bounce. Balance is also huge, as is tension! Good points, all.
Yes! Very helpful reverse gravity bowing. I like you showing, and explaining perpendicular bowing to the string..
This video was extremely helpful to understand the physics behind bow jumping. Thank you!
You are very welcome. If you discover something NEW about the unwanted bounce, please share! Viewers often teach ME things!
@lsefia You're welcome. I'm glad you found it helpful.
This is clearly stated and understandable. Thanks. I suffer the bouncing bow and didn't know any of this. I am grateful.
HOORAY! I hope it resolves for you!
Wow I got to 4:40 is and raised my elbow and the bloody bouncing just disappeared. Thank you so much
I’ll watch and study the rest of the video with pleasure but I think I’m cured now. Thanks again
Russell in Peru
a-ah, this 'equi-distant angle' made it clear to me. So I guess double stopping is a good diagnostic (as always) , cause there is only one possible angle you must keep from the beginning to the end of your bowing. I actually realized that in my case bouncing occurs more often on chords and double-stops, so this may really be the issue. Thanks!
Love all your lessons; taught with compassion! Don't focus on the hair too much, you have the face for any style!!
:-) Thanks!
@ShadowProgs LOL! I felt pretty stupid doing it too.....but it sort of helps us to understand the difference between GRAVITY, as opposed to OUR OWN muscle effort on the bow! Here's to practicing up-side-down!
Thanks for watching, Young Lee!
Yeah, I don't know why teachers avoid the subject of colle'. It's not that hard to teach. I don't teach my beginners about colle', because they have enough to worry about. But by Suzuki Book 3, or end of Book 2, the topic should come up. I'm glad you are finding some answers now! Better late than never!
thankyouthankyou so much I never knew how tight my bow was really supposed to be, and the playing upside down tip helped ohsomuch. Thank you again.
AudreyHepburn98 You're very welcome. Odd, but effective little tip, isn't it?
I was making down strokes in that 'Danger zone" plus dropping my shoulder and slowing down bow speed to much. IT was driving me nuts.
Thanks for the awesome video!
Glad it helped! Good job solving your problem!
Many thanks for taking the time to puzzle it out and explain! A few of those factors effect me, but it would've taken me forever to recognize the 'angle of attack' variable, which looks like my main issue.
Really thanks for the #2 pencils advice!! Without it I wouldn't have noticed that I was stretching out the bow too much.
really glad it helped, Aaron. Good luck to you!
Very helpful, thanks. It seemed for me that playing closer to the bridge helped reduced bounce, but I’ll have to rest it out some more. Also, the way we place our left hand fingers seems to affect it too - placing them too hard, or starting vibrato too soon also seems to increase bounce.
I think those are really good ideas, Adam. Thank you!
Thank you so much! As an adult beginner who has this very problem, i find this extremely useful!
It's a very common problem. But you will overcome it. Just don't let it give you a complex!
HEY....I think that is a WONDERFUL way of working on this problem! Thanks for the idea!
Thanks for this video. I have recently developed a problem with bow bounce but you have given me much food for thought :)
George
I'm glad you find the value in these videos! Keep workin!
Your videos have been a great help to me, getting back into playing violin. Analogies are nice and clear, too. This one in particular, though, is a massive help. I'm sure Kenny Loggins was annoyed with me always bowing in the danger zone.
Thank you so very much. Now back to vibrato practice...
That was excellent; I wish you were my teacher many years ago.
I rarely have had any bow bounce, but every time I have, I had to take a breath and consciously relax my bowing wrist and forearm.... that was all it was. That was it, nothing more. I was surprised you didn't list that one! :) It's usually when I'm learning something new/difficult and I am mildly frustrated and concentrating too hard. I just need to relax the arm a bit and have more fun.
Simple and effective! Thanks for adding that!
this solves my problem! thank you! i'm really new to violin(i don't own one yet but a friend of mine let me use his electric violin) and i keep experiencing bounce on the danger zone that you mentioned while doing open string exercises.
Reminds me of getting hauled by a tow truck ... really! Driver explained that the weight of the car was redistributing his weight, in effect lightening the weight over his front axle and creating a fulcrum over his back axle. As we went over bumps, front end of my car bounced and pushed on the hitch, lightened his front wheels, and exaggerated bounce. So stiffen the pinky, have a heavy arm behind the fulcrum, which is our "circle" of thumb and second finger...I'm starting to see a similarity
This is exactly the video I need!! Thanks for uploading!
Soooooo glad! Thanks!
@jdsherri That's true, except that it wouldn't be quite the same, because you'd have to fight to keep your bow from falling toward the bridge. But it's not a bad idea.
I'm glad it helped you. I find that my "unwanted bounce" comes back once in awhile, and I always have to figure out one of the many ways to get rid of it. But, it gets easier and easier to ANTICIPATE, and ELIMINATE the bounce. Good luck! --L
@aimson Sorry for the delayed response. I do have some suggestions for double stops....well, it's not just for double stops. Of course, try to MINIMIZE the size of your string crossings, and tilting the bow ever so slightly can really kill the bounce. I love your tip about HORIZONTAL movement rather than VERTICAL. Good point.....especially true for double stops! --L
@AHHmava Even if you can find MOMENTS where you can relax your shoulders....that will help a ton. And eventually, you can turn your relaxation from "moments" to minutes, and eventually to constant relaxation. But you will find such relief in those "moments" that it will motivate you to relax more and more. Good luck!
I have only had my violin one month and had two lessons, so a complete beginner, but can get a nice sound. I occasionally get some bounce, my teacher said it is too much upward pressure from the thumb which is competing with the downward pressure from the fingers above the bow which causes it. As I'm a beginner I haven't completely got rid of it yet, but often it seems I am pressing up with my thumb without realising. A phrase which I have read that I find helpful is "you should try to feel the weight of the bow with your thumb". I also had my thumb stuck rigidly bent which I have been told is wrong, as it should be more relaxed and straighten slightly at times. Sorry if I am stating obvious things.
It is not obvious at all! Thank you for your feedback! There are a million ways of looking at this problem, and this thumb thing might help someone else. Keep up the good work!
Thank you, for this! There is already an improvement and I know what to practice to help even more. Thanks again!
Amazing explanation of what's going on with bouncing bow... and how to work around it.... thanks a lot
@RedDesertViolin yes you can :) lol i deleted cuz i made a typo but i guess i didnt repost when i fixed it. (opps). i was also going to say you can hold you finger out and rest the bow near the tip and pretend to change strings, now do it close to the frog. if you do it wrong, like just lowering you bow hand, you can feel how much force you put on you finger cuz your finger is lifting the end of the bow. i practiced doing it and keeping the even pressure on my finger. idk if i explaned it well
THANKS!!! You helped me A LOT!!!!
I've been dealing with these bounces when I'm changing bow direction (down bow - lift - downbow)
Cannot thank you enough for these wonderfully helpful and encouraging videos!
Wow your teaching is so great. Incredible. Thank you very much.
Thank you thank you thank you soo much!!!!!! This is exactly what I needed!!! As soon as I watched the video and focused on all those little details the bounce went away and I was playing much better😄😄😄
+George Bahena AWESOME. THat is music to my ears!
Just beginning to play the violin and this vid really really helped. Thank you!
I have dramatically reduced my Bow Bouncing. I memorize the speed at which my downward stoke bounces my Bow. I slightly angle my Bow at less than North North East . While doing my downward stoke, with my angled Bow, I drag my bow from the fingerboard to the middle or near the Bridge, depending what I want to do and the sound I want to make. When my Bow is perpendicular to the Bridge, I call it pointing to the North. I am without a Teacher and making a surgical study of the violin playing.
Great video for me because I know now why my pinky is straight when bowing. My teacher never corrected me. Also, the perpendicular and bending over to bow tips are great tips! Thank you! Bad habits can develop if not corrected!
Wow, good to hear, Terry! (the bending over never made sense to me, but other people told me about it, and LOTS of people have told me it helps! LOL)
this is awesome, thank you so much for this well taught piece of advice. I'm not a violin player, but sometimes I record a few violin notes on my music, and this has helped me a lot.
Very informative video with good tips on how to avoid bow bounce. But I would like to add that the quality of the bow can have a drastic effect on bow bouncing. I use a carbon fiber bow due to the fact that I simply can't afford a pernambuco bow. But just the other day I tried to use my fathers bow on his violin and had to put a considerable amount of effort into keeping the bow from bouncing. He has a brazil wood bow and it's a lot more flimsy than my carbon bow. The stick isn't nearly as stout as my carbon bow, and even more flimsy than the brazil wood bow that I no longer use that came with my violin. When I loosened the bow enough to where it would no longer bounce I found that when I really went to get down into the strings for a bold sound the bow hairs bottomed out on the stick. So keep in mind that the quality of the bow also has a lot to do with bouncing. I'll be lending my carbon bow to my father for a few weeks to see how he likes it in comparison to his bow.
Jeff, I agree totally. Not only the flimsy versus firm, but also the balance point of the bow, and the different "camber" (curve) of each bow will affect its bounciness.
You are such a great teacher. Thanks.
You're very welcome, and thank you!
I need to watch this a couple hundred times! Thank you
+xsilentdream LOL.....I know, there are A LOT of things that contribute to the bounce! You will figure it out! Good luck!
+Red Desert Violin Thank you! I've just seen your crooked bow video two days ago and promptly went about correcting it. It was very clear! (Scrub a dirty doggie!) Now the bounce seems to be worse but I'm not particularly worried. Think it's my muscles adjusting to the unnatural angle since I've been bowing crooked for months.
Amazing tips! So helpful! I tend to hold my bow too tight and cant seem to curve little finger. Ill try to pay attention to all these things now.
I really enjoyed this. Great teaching!
Think of everything in violin as a CIRCLE. Hold your bow like you are holding an egg. Vibrato is like a circle. Bowing is like a circle. Circles circles circles!
Thanks, FineViolins! Always glad to help a fellow teacher out. :)
Thanks for the video! The idea of bending over so the scroll is perpendicular to the floor helped me identify a problem with the motion of my bow arm. (It's hard to describe, but I found that on the down bow, the upper arm has to move back a little to get out of the way and allow the forearm to follow through.) I also noticed that the problem was worse on the A string than on the D string, so I adjusted my shoulder rest to reduce the tilt of the violin. To my surprise, I was able to eliminate the unwanted bounces within a day.
Jason, this was so cool to read. Glad it helped! You said something that really got my attention.....how tall are you? Because if you are quite tall, you have just explained to me how to help my tall students. (moving the upper arm BACK a little to get out of the way..........) Please write back......I'd really like to know how tall you are.
I'm not very tall, just 5'8". For me, it wasn't a matter of creating space for a long bow arm, but more a need to relax my shoulder (my Alexander Technique teacher says it's actually the sternoclavicular joint) so that it was free to move, just as the elbow, wrist and fingers are free to move. One exercise that helped me is to repeat short bows on a single note, near the middle of the bow, allowing only one part of the bow arm to move at a time (shoulder or SC joint, elbow, and finally wrist/fingers). Two of the areas are locked in place while the 3rd does all of the moving. This helped me to learn to relax each part of the bow arm and feel how each part contributes to a normal bow stroke.
Aaah. Thank you for replying back, Jason. YOu are very fortunate to have a A.T. teacher! Keep up the great work!
@savblanco Chris-- I think your description is perfect. That is exactly what has to happen. It's a really tough transition to get from the lower half of the bow past the "bounce zone" as you cleverly coined it, and then into the upper half, because each half of the bow uses different muscle combinations. I like your description. Thanks! --L
Thanks reddesertviolin i am a 10 year old violinist. I've been wondering why my bow bounce's THANKS A LOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your videos are all very interesting and useful! I solved one of my problems watching your video about bow hold (the trick of lean the pinky on the outer side of the "exagon")! The bouncing bow is another one of my hateful problems, but now I'm solving it by concentrate myself to keep all the body and the shoulders particularly relaxed, but it takes some time :-D Good job! ;-)
This video is a great lesson, I learnt so much from it.
Thanks.
also grateful for your excellent tips