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My last game a tried the Hour glass in which they were in the Hill Giant compound and after a certain amount of time the Hill Giant Chief escapes and later they retreated so back at square 1
For my group they usually don’t come up with ideas for a situation unless they are super interested in the situation. This is fine by me because I like coming up with ideas for situation. Because of this, I usually let whatever happens happen whenever they make a decision.
Watched a game at a game shop I was shopping at where 4 players hit came to a situation where they had to make a Choice of what to do and the group spent 50 min making plans then 2nd guessing themselves which led to them talking themselves out off acting on any decision they came to. Finally the players threw their hands up and said that the DM was being unfair since everything they tried had failed. After a pause the DM informed the group that all they had done was talk about what to do and never actually did anything, so he had no idea what they thought they had failed at.
I have to remind my group constantly that they need to actually do things in game, not ask me questions. "What if I do X?" "I dunno. Why don't you try it?"
If I was at the table, at the 30 minute mark I would probably just face palm and tell the DM, "Screw it. I just want to play the game. If nobody decides to do anything in the next 5 minutes, my character does X consequence be damned." Not sure if that makes me a good player or a bad player though.
If NPC's are present I don't see any problems with NPC's nudging players towards a decision. The thing is that the NPC should do so in-character, which means that the decision the NPC nudged the players towards might not be the 'correct' one.
I agree with this: the NPC only knows certain things. Maybe they give the worst advice possible, but the players will hopefully recognize that the DM is trying to get the game moving.
I've even specifically created NPC's that were "impulsive"... Take the "three doors" example. I'd roll a D6, and go with whatever the results were (provided no PC was ready to step up and do something of course)... 1-2 = Door #1, 3-4 = Door #2, 5-6 = Door #3... and that's the direction the NPC goes, for better and for worse, and probably grumbling something about indecisive or not having the brains given certain insects... whatever... make a show of it... Yes, this has nuked more than one lovable NPC... AND no, I do NOT regret it. ;o)
@@theDMLair your video is a medium of discussion. If you wanted to you could always save these points for round two. But I'm content that you engage your viewers so well.
"Have an NPC nudge them along" is a perfectly valid option in my opinion but going back to the three doors example Luke gave earlier I would roll a d4 to randomly determine which door the NPC would advise them to go through so it isn't necessarily giving them the answer but it'll do a similar thing to asking one player which door they go through
I use the hourglass method all the time. I have 6 hour glasses. 1, 3, 5, 10, 15, and 30 minutes. I will usually give them 1-5 minutes "before something happens" I have used the 30 and 15 minutes in lieu of death saves for a character that was buried under bugs and another time when they were drowning. It was intense
@@theDMLair SUPER technical, those are not "hourglasses". They are sand timers. I am so pedantic right now! Anywho, please continue using timers as needed.
I would do that. And then get called a dumbass for not waiting for the party to do thing this translated in game to My character being labeled a bimbo because she would “rush” into situations. She never got the party into trouble though. If things backfired on her she was always able to get out of it. Sorry that I didn’t want to waste a half hour of our 3 hour game time Trying to decide wether or not we wanted to forge a letter or sneak in as the help.
That was brilliant. I for one have to think of a way to do that in a game. Hopefully in a way to make the DM laugh. Should we call it "Fatcatting"? The action of having your npc hireling or familiar seduce an inanimate object. Any idea's?
This might be a bit complicated, but something I found helpful with my group (who are seemingly incapable of committing to ANY idea). When the players' conversation drags along, I roll a d20 and then count up to the result. I repeat the process then with a d12, a d10, etc. Most often than not, the players catch on something is happening and either let someone decide or make up their minds. It kind of works like the hourglass option except it adds a layer of ambiguity, am I rolling for time? Am I rolling a random encounter? Am I just bored and want to hear the math rocks go click clack?
I have a set of metal dice and a wooden dice tower, for extra noise. Because players can't help but metagame at least a little bit, I sometimes like to increase the tension by randomly rolling a die.
Our DM just uses a noisy timer that goes tic-toc because none of us have any dice 😂 And when the time's up, he plays whatever music or noise track and does what he has to.
@@bradleyrichard9283 @Bradley Richard With Roll20 it works pretty well just rolling the dice in the open. Haven't used any of the other platforms so cannoy say how well they work
One of my groups used to be really bad about that. I have an hourglass timer (two minutes) that I set on the table. Depending on how irritated the table argument made me determines what type of encounter. Anything from; “The opportunity has passed you by” to “a portal opens in front of you and a Vampiric, half-dragon Tarrasque lich steps forward to do battle” is fair game. Now I’ve never had to do the latter but they’ve ended up captured by Orcs, narrowly avoided a 2:1 battle with Frost Giants (early campaign), missed the opportunity for a magic items and alerted a lieutenant for the BBEG to their plans.
Thank you, Luke! This video couldn’t have come at a better time for me. Last week’s session, my players only moved through 1 hour of time in the game world, and there wasn’t even any combat. They spent the whole session arguing over what to do out of character and trying to figure out how their spells work. One player got upset when I said that discussion was in character, since the PC’s need to be communicating with each other about a plan for them to be able to act together on it. There is a certain level of tactics that the PC’s in any competent and tight-knit adventuring party are expected to have discussed in character offscreen in order to fight together effectively or handle certain common emergencies, but specific non-combat scenarios that are dependent on information discovered in the dungeon do not fall into this category. I ended up saying that the enemies in the dungeon heard them arguing in character, and this next session they’ll face a deadly encounter by CR, because they let the enemies set up an ambush by arguing in character in earshot of the enemies. Normally, letting them hear me roll dice behind the screen is enough to scare them into action, but your video convinced me to take the kid gloves off and raise the CR. My last resort when the group is getting really off track is to have them make an intelligence or wisdom roll to realize how offbase their line of thinking is, but last session they all rolled terribly so it’s not perfect. Then again, I’m merely the apostle of the dice, and to defy them would be heresy, and if their character failed that check then the idiocy is in character.
Yeah I totally agree with the whole what you discuss out of character is your characters discussing in character in the game. When the clock is ticking in the game because they're discussing things out of the game then that put a sense of urgency on their decisions. There are some things that you would expect a elite Strike Force like an adventuring party to know because they talk about tactics and stuff all the time. But these moments of making decisions on things no those are completely in character moments. And The Game World should react to them taking forever to think and talk about things just as you're doing in your game as described above. So I don't see anything wrong with having them get ambushed by enemies that heard them talking and now have set up a deadly ambush. Players can't just take an hour in game when they've just been in combat that has alerted possibly other people in the dungeon to their presents. Like they need to keep moving they need to do stuff they can just sit there and talk all day. If they wanted to sit there and talk all day then they have to expect that the enemy is going to take action against them and it might result in things like a big Ambush. This is only logical. This is verisimilitude that of the game.
I just used #1 the other day, with interesting results. The players were standing at the entrance to a goblin lair completely unable to determine whether to enter or not. It got to the point everyone was arguing for and against. I had an encounter planned for when they exited the lair, so I just bumped that encounter up. Instead of engaging this new encounter (a group of soldiers sent by the most recent villain to "deal" with the goblins for the local town) the players decided to retreat *into* the goblin lair. One member of the party (a new player) was unknown, so, when the soldiers entered the lair behind them they decided to talk then, with only this new guy visible. So, this new guy, having just encountered the group and not aware yet of their history with this villain and the goblins, tried to convince them to work with them against the goblins. From an outside perspective this made sense, but, the rest of the party was well aware that this villain and the goblins served the same BBEG. They debated on just using that opportunity to slip out, but instead, for reasons I'm not sure about, decided to see what happened. So, they hear the guards call out "goblins!" and then combat, the new player, a dwarf paladin, of course immediately goes to their aid, the rest of the party didn't say or do anything. So the paladin attacked the orc one of the guards was "fighting" and obviously, was then attacked by the orcs and soldiers (to eliminate witnesses as they were still unaware of who the rest of the party was.) This surprise attack against the paladin all by himself nearly killed him and the party was forced to a fighting retreat out of the dungeon. Both the encounters had been planned to, separately, be low to moderate challenge, together it was tough, but beatable within the confines of the dungeon (out in the open it would have been very hard to unbeatable.) The party managed a successful retreat, killing a large portion of the enemies in the process, and decided to vacate the premises, continuing the travel they had been on. What they didn't know was, by that time the enemy forces had been decimated and it would have been fairly simple for them to go back in, finish them off and get the loot. Instead they walked away defeated and empty handed.
My personal favorite is, i will ask a random player (and usually pick someone with low wisdom) to roll a perception check for me. A note down the result and say "okay, good to know" and say nothing else. Every time I've used this it has added a much needed sense of urgency to a discussion. If I ask for a second check they will usually make a choice then and there and go. If they get to three they will get ambaushed by something appropriate to the area they are in. But they usually don't let it get to three.
NEXT WEEK you will be talking about Character Owned Property - HOMES FOR THE P-CHARACTERS - - How do the PCs get their own first lair without enough money to actually buy one? - What does a full renovation cost? - How can they upgrade it even further? - What protective measures can they install? - How much would it cost to hire Dwarfs to make the PCs their own dungeon underneath their new home? (This is what my group is doing right now). - What makes a home come alive? = A servant or caretaker. Like Alfred in Batman. - Do they need a house guard? - How much does a house guard cost? Prices differs depending on how good it is. What does the house guard need to not be bored out of his mind since 99,99% of the time bad stuff aint happening? - What makes the players not bored to do all this? = 1: Roleplay some of it; shop stores, some price haggling etc. 2: But time skip some of it, like a full renovation might take 2 weeks, let those two weeks pass during THAT SESSION, and make the players feel they got their new home done and complete, so they can happily return to it after their upcoming adventures. I just introduced this so successfully to my group and even the guy who hates this type of roleplay LOVED it: "No other GM has actually made this type of play interesting, and you made us roleplay it, design it and have it during the same session without us having to meta-game scroll through boring pricing lists (I, the DM, had all the prices ready in my head for that session). And the fact that our bard could haggle the prices and also made the merchants accept installment payment was brilliant, now we have an awesome home to return to and store our cool trophys in, and i love it". I recommend you to watch Taking20's vid "How to Create a Home Base for Your Dungeons and Dragons Players". Your vid title must also have the words "Home" "Lair" "Hideout" etc, and "D&D" so others can find it when searching for it. There are also some nice PDFs on the DMs Lair that can help DMs with this: "Fortresses, Temples, & Strongholds" and "Player Owned Property for 5e" are both great.
@@PerfectionHunter Oh! A set of rule books were included in the D&D "Red Box", labeled Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, and Immortal. The Expert and Companion books have details for the construction and staffing of strongholds.
Another option is to use that trick cgp gray has in a video. "Hands up if you're okay with casting fireball" "hands up if you're okay with trying to seduce the door " "hands up if you're okay with hacking at it with the barbarians great ax" And if your players vote twice who gives a damn, that's the point.
I am in two campaigns online right now. One of the DMs got very frustrated because the amount of side content he added slowed down the game a ton. One of the things he wanted us to do involved paying for sailors for our ship. It caused us to spend hours talking about options, things to purchase for the ship, and other general budget options.
Whenever a DM does something like that they're basically asking for it. I myself have elected to just let the game run at its own pace as long as the players seem to be in it. In the meantime I'm just sitting there prepping the next session, taking notes, or looking through monsters to throw at them.
My newish players (wife and kids) struggle with decisions. I feel it is partly my fault for not doing the best job giving them info but they never take notes and they often forget the information I give. They don't seem to mind much and I have only had to "give them the answer" once so far. They are still working on the "do anything they want part" and they think there are specific things they have to do. Luckily my older son who plays has a long history of video game playing, so he is able to improvise decisions a little better and helps the group along. We still have a blast though.
Give rewards for taking notes. Minor NPC boons, a little extra XP, advantage on a check or even a saving throw. “Because you remembered the shopkeeper’s name and asked about his kids, he’s feeling friendly today! You get a 20 percent discount for this trip.” As long as you’re not running intrigue, where everyone would need to remember many details, this system really gives players extra reasons to take notes.
I really like the idea of using Number 3. Just having an hourglass out in open can be quite stressful to players especially since the players don’t know what will happen when the hourglass finishes. Thanks for the advice, Luke. I just bought some hourglasses and I’m going to start using that method on my players. I also wanted to say thank you for the shoutout. I really appreciate it. You and your content are amazing, Luke and as always, your skits at the beginning are hilarious. I love it. :)
So i'm DMing for a group of 7, of which most are still rather inexperienced. They are enjoying the RP, they do interact with the world, they listen to each other.. When the time comes for a decision, they are very slow to find one, as none wants to force their way of action upon any of the others, and while this is nice, results in RP, and all that, it really really slows the game down. Their current situation is rather safe, so random encounters would feel off, and there are multiple plot hooks they could take. They have a mystery to solve, just have to start of with any of the plothooks (which the players know).. we spent an entire session on this (and related) discussion,.. and I mean none of them is complaining, am I just too impatient?
The thing is your fun is important too. And just becaise no one complains doesn't mean they arent thinking it. They also might enjoy a faster pace if they were able to experience it for once. You never know how good chocolate is until you try it.
Just a guess, here... BUT with most of your Table "inexperienced", I'm thinking that you ALSO haven't had much time in the seat for this group as "Active GM"... Meaning, they've got just enough experience in the Game to have heard some of the antics and horror stories (side effect of internet access, even beyond the "Mercer Effect") so there hasn't been a chance really, to build any trust between you (GM) and the group of Players. Yeah, your fun counts for something, too... AND sooner or later, there's going to be a point where the Players are meant to make assumptions that are incorrect. At some point, that's going to have to cost them. Just be cautious (at first, anyway) about implementing mischief and under-handed tactics on them, so they can gain a bit of confidence in their decision-making, and you'll likely see a steady up-tick in pace. At the end of the day, you can (and should) try communicating with them. Explain some of the angst, and offer some coaching. Just being consistent about foreshadowing a bit before you unleash something secretly too awful to handle accounts for a lot in Player-GM trust issues... especially when dealing with relatively Novice Players. ;o)
If you don`t want to punish your players for taking too long, but still want to speed things up, you could try doing the opposite (positive reinforcement). Try to implement, if possible, an extra reward for solving the mystery quickly. If that doesn`t seem enough, up the stakes by making it affect something of your world instead of the party (this may only work if your players actually care about the rest of the world).
I should probably implement some of these. It's not too bad, but I'm running a sandbox game, and sometimes if the players didnt have anything planned, they get a bit of choice paralasys, especially since it's borderline turning into a large scale strategy game, now that they're setting up forts and contracts
I have some analysis paralysis now in my curse of strahd game. Players in Vallaki and lots of options of what tp do. Decisions are much harder in open world games.
If multiple players want to do an action at the same time, I will sometimes have them roll initiative or some other determining factor. If all actions are physical, roll initiative to see who reacts first. If all actions are magical, roll arcana to see who can cast their spell first. Part physical, part magical? Roll physically related skill (Athletics, Acrobatics, etc.) versus the magical (Arcana, History, etc.). This can give each player a chance to react based on what they are wanting to do and keep it in the realm of possiblity for their characters. On a tie for magical effects, consider if a spell used is a bonus action, since those are typically faster to get off.
I am flabbergasted as to how you aren't a bigger channel... The Dungeon Coach mentioned you in a video and I came here. Thank you so much! In the past I always had an NPC run up to a party member or a random battle happen (at 1/2 XP&CR) when PC's talk for more than 4 minutes (two 2min sand timers behind screen). Next session they will have a leader and a timer they can all see!
Love the rolling d6 idea thats great. I have definitely found the sand timers to be very effective even if I have no idea whats gonna happen when it runs out as well lol. Also helps when you have a player taking to long to decide what to do in combat!
Especially if you do it a couple times and wait while writing them down everytime Added points if you can make it sound like if your wildly scribbling the whole time like your making a encounter on the fly
I’m a big fan of doing fake rolls behind the screen. I’ve got a set of dice that have no numbers on them, they’re just blank. So I’ll ask a random player what their perception is, do a roll behind the screen, pretend to look at my notes, and then say “hmm...okay cool”. Inevitably I get asked what that was for roll was for and hit them with the classic “you don’t know” and just stare at the group.
it's funny that this video showed up when it did, my last dnd session was a nightmare for indecisiveness.........We spent 90 minutes "debating" if we should eat a pastry....despite the DM clearly saying it's a plot hook, obvious plot hook is obvious. EAT THE DAMN PASTRY!! the DM cried
I used to frequently have this problem in my current group. After one really bad session, I talked to them about this issue at the start of the next game, and we discussed certain behaviors that lead debates in circles. Wouldn't you know, I've never had this problem since.
11:43 I've seen Matt Mercer use NPC's, but not by giving his players an answer, he uses them to break the cycle to realize that they need to do something, or someone is waiting, etc
Ways to not give a hint but still force action: NPC is getting visibly impatient / irritated with you The NPC is now walking away (or out of position for an ideal ambush) If the NPC is an ally in a dungeon they voice concerns in character, if its the doorway roll and that decides the door they suggest. (Somethings the CR group will ask the NPC what he wants and Matt will deflect back because they are clearly asking for the answer) Also its never wrong to as the DM just say hurry up. (Not necessarily in those exact words)
One thing i've learned in my first DM-ing adventure, was to slightly limit choices. My dungeon had 5 options to go to, but they got them pretty much at the same moment. Rather then the players following the dragmarks that they found, they started arguing about where to go. Afterwards we talked, and I learned that it would be better to just have a single split, limiting their options from 3, down to 2. Still having the same amount of chambers, just a diferent layout, and they'd be arguing less about what to do/where to go. This might be something related to my group, but I've learned that they are quicker at making simple decisions (go left or right) then when they need to decide on a way to go when there are 3 options, so now I just give them splits in the path, rather then choices to speed up my game (6PC's, the discussions take way too long...)
Not just your group. That's humans. Sales professionals know the human decision loop, and teach that you either offer the potential sucker, er, um, customer only two choices (the bad one and the one that gets you the most profit) or three choices (the cheapo flimsy one, the super expensive "all the bells and whistles" one, or the middle-grade one that is secretly the one you want to sell.
My answer to that is give them reasons to chose on more than the other: to youre left, there is a trace of blood on the floor. A strange smell is coming out on the right. Nothing special about the strait passage...
@@denisnadeau865 definitely, you could even go so far as to have signs. This way the choices may be labeled "Armory", "Barracks", and "Main Hall" giving some expectations about the rooms beyond the "tracking markings" of blood splatters/trails, Claw marks / physical damage, smells, sounds. I know that CR C2 had used this to great effect in the final arc. It really tore at the players to decide between "magical room of red buttons" and the bad guys went that way and you are on a very strict time limit. Also having say 5 paths but if 3 are labeled things like bakery, Stables, and Barracks when the players are explicitly looking for the vault to steal from tells them, there are other paths but you don't actually want to go down them. So you get the illusion of a fleshed out world and they get an easy choice of 2 paths of interest. And maybe they need to make a quick getaway and remember that the stables were that way and they steal horses on the way out aiding escape and hampering pursuit. So definitely give them enough data to make a real choice, otherwise they may as well roll a die to pick the path since they are all equal. (Dark tunnels with bad omens at the entrance)
In regard to no. 9: An NPC can be useful if you establish that they are NOT the DM giving the party the "correct" answer. Establishing the NPC's point of view early can help provide an in-world voice to bring the players back to the realization that "Hey, our characters are taking too long to make a decision and the people in the world are starting to notice." Bonus points if the NPC gives bad advice disguised as good advice every now and then to encourage the players to make their own decisions and take the information provided in-world with a grain of salt.
I have found that new players are the most hesitant to make decisions or do anything so what I have done for the first adventure of any campaign I start is to create a adventure that has many choices then for each encounter with choices make it a multiple choice adventure. This helps them understand what kind of actions they can take, whether they are right or wrong. I have found this goes a long way in encouraging actions from the players, [because this is something that they know]. Example: You see a armed man in the middle of the road, he appears to be waiting for you to approach. What do you do? a) Approach the armed man cautiously. b) Immediately attack the armed man. or c) Wait and see what the man does. Obviously there are a multitude of other choices they could make and they should be allowed, but this gets their minds going and this should be a short adventure because your just trying to get them thinking. BTW I liked your idea about the dice for each player great idea!
I think some indecision and back and forth on what to do is part of the game, and a necessary part of the collaborative element of the game. Yes, sometimes you have to nudge the players along when they are spinning their tires or wasting too much time on something minor, but occasionally, it's helpful to the overall health of the game to let the party get caught up in an extensive debate on what to do, particularly with moral dilemmas or game-changing decisions. If it's just "do we go up to the door and use the secret knock the DM handed us on a silver platter" then yes, push them along. If it's a world-shaping campaign defining moment, give them some time and only nudge them along when they are noticeably done with the conversation but not quite at a conclusion.
We’ve had this exact issue with doors in our campaign. Our talks on what to do about doors became so infamous, our party was granted the official party name “The Unhinged” in honor of our reckless behavior towards all future doors after our literal hour long discussion on how to get past our first door. How did we finally get past our first door? We knocked, and someone opened the door for us.
Getting past doors always ends up so complicated but its really simple: 1. Check for traps (if suspicious location) 2. Try to open it (is it locked?) 3. Attempt lockpicking 4. Smash your way through 5. Find a new path you failures Alternatively if it isn't a dungeon try being polite and civil and just knock. Even if it is a dungeon you could consider knocking and grab the guard who opens it, will not work in all situations. (Like if you are spotted/in combat and they know they hate you)
I use number 1 a lot. Also number 2 all my games run on time tables. The king will die in an hour if they dont get the antidote so they can wait as long as they want but time will keep moveing forward
I primarily put out a 1-minute “hour” glass and start it. If they ask what that is for, I tell them you are in a dangerous area, it’s very possible something will happen or show up if you don’t make a decision before it runs out. I also use for those players that can’t decide what to do in combat. After a minute or so, I place it out front. I tell them, you are in combat. You don’t have time to waffle. That is why it’s important to pay attention what is happening on the battle field. Once the timer runs out, if you haven’t taken action or state your holding a specific action triggered by a specific event, you lose your turn. It amazing how it speeds up decisions in combat also. A fun way to deal with indecision of opening a door, EVERY NOW AND THEN, is to have an NPC or Creature able to open doors do so and find the PCs there discussing what action to take. Since we roll initiatives prior to any combat encounters, in those moments, I will have the two closest to the door roll d20s + Initiative Mod against the NPC/Creature opening the door and their same roll. That combat round goes in order of highest roll first. Only those rolling can participate in that combat round based on THAT particular initiative roll. Then we go to the standard Initiative order. The other way I help move things along is I roll a d4 behind screen. They hear it go through the tower. I then place it out front showing a 1 or 2, even if rolled a 3 or 4. They know something will happen in that many rounds. I then start at the beginning of the Initiative Order asking what each player wants to do (again we roll prior to the next combat encounter at first of the session or right after post combat activity). When I have completed that many passes through the Initiative Order, something happens that fits the scenario they are facing. It may be something or someone interrupting them, a sound they hear moving toward them. May even suddenly create a release of some type of gas from tiny holes in the ceiling or if no one looked up to scan for traps or from some other area they didn’t search for traps or investigate. Something will happen or show up!
After jumping into the DM seat due to multiple failures to rotate, I will say that I do actually really enjoy the DM seat… However, being able to see the group function the way it does, this video hits home.
Geezer here.... There are sooooo many ways. Ok... After talking for way to long you awake..... In???? Roll initiative. (Not for combat)... You see a kobold or whatever raising the great finger of defiance... Ducks around the corner, rock, tree or whatever.... He/she is carrying off a sack of loot, their stuff... Like maybe anything they might miss later. In my experience one of the best ways to keep a table moving is for sure to make all game time in character time. Your point on character "time stop" is gospel or should be. Great vid as always. Thanks. Game on.
I once had a situation where the party was taking their sweet time deciding what to do with a big bad they had captured in a castle. My son was in the party and sent me a text message along the lines “Baggy’s pyromaniacy gets the better of him and he starts a fire in one of the nearby rooms.” The party had to start making perception rolls to notice the smoke, then bug the hell out of there. He had already established his tendency to set things on fire earlier in the campaign to great effect. It turned out to be a great “random encounter” that forced decisions to move faster. It also cut off several options and moved them in the best direction they had been avoiding because it felt like a trap. Now, any time there is a fire, they all look to the Halfling and go “what did you do??”
I was once running a group that had to infiltrate an army on the move in an ice country. They spent more than an hour deciding how to do it. In the end the army passed and they were attacked by Winter Wolfs that I had warned existed. All died
One of the hardest things I deal with is if I should have characters automatically roll for perception checks every turn for traps and perception checks at doors, expect them to remember every time it's their turn or prompt them if I think they need to make one or not. I feel like if a dungeon, for example, is a total of 600 squares and if they move 6 squares a turn, that would be asking them to remember to make 60 perception checks for traps and thats not including for doors and other perception checks. One idea I've had which I haven't tried out yet is having the characters pre roll some perception checks and have them reroll every once and a while so they don't know when or if they've passed by a trap or not. From looking around a lot of dnd youtubers I don't think I've seen a topic about this yet. Thanks your videos are awesome
Or just roll the dice loudly behind your DM screen. Possibly while asking everyone what their passive perception or other stat is. Then just smile menacingly and say, "okay." I of course like the hourglass best. On a similar but different note, (non D&D) my group was preparing to run a public ritual once and the students started harping on minutia. (Who's going to light the incense? Who's going to mix the salt water?) Now in putting together a big public event there are certainly some important, "Who's in charge of what?" questions. These weren't that kind of questions, and not only was the best answer, "Whoever's nearby and doesn't have a job at the time," but also they were messing with my concentration regarding the BIG things that DID have to be covered. I finally went and got one of those Magic Eight Balls, and when asked an annoying question, would shake the 8 Ball and consult it. After about the 3rd time they got the point. Something like this might work in game - pull it out and consult it yourself (again a menacing glance around the table) or give it to the players and tell them to use the device to decide.
As a DM if my group starts getting indecisive i have them write down a leader of the group (cannot be themselves) to make the decision as a whole. I gather the paper and tally it up. If its a tie I roll a D20 (evens being one person and odds being another) i found that this helps and the leader stays the deciding factor for the rest of the campaign.
This video caught my interest, not due to being a dungeon master but due to being personally an indecisive player. Rather than group decisions, my individual decisions take time. This is especially true when given a new system and/or a new game group and it takes more time to chew through options and evaluate player reactions. I'm generally an overthinker and very self-conscious, and it doubles up when I fear something I do inconveniences the rest of the party / is stupid / is out of character / etc. Last time it happened, my game master reassured that everything was alright, no one was annoyed by my "ummmmm" moments, but it still bothers me and I hate it. Still I don't want to just sit aside and let things happen to me, I also want to make things happen. This video had some great tools that even I could use on myself, like just randomizing what my character does if I get in stuck or delegating the final decision to the party leader ("My character asks the party boss character if my character should just shoot that goblin"). Another idea my GM threw is that my character plays a flashback in their mind about the party combat training they had in their past and use that as a frame to ask other players if the idea I have could be useful (in that specific campaign I play a rather inexperienced character). On longer run, I think that easing factors would get more familiar and comfortable with the system and player group, so I wouldn't need to use that much energy to anything else than the actual decision. The more clearly I can think, the less likely I enter to decision paralysis. What comes to the nudging option, I would personally be comfortable if the GM nudged me if I enter into a decision paralysis (such as pointing out a thing that my character especially pays attention onto, hence clarifying what is most relevant in the situation). Otherwise no nudging thanks.
this video really helps me because I am dming a group of 5 new players, and most of them (3) are passive players, or rather reactive, relying on the other 2 to take the lead and make decisions. one of the active players actually complained to me that he felt like he was the only one really involved in the game and so he feels less motivated than if everyone participated equally. and it is really frustrating for me as he was one of the most motivated players when we began the campaign!
I usually just raise my hands and start counting from 10 to 0. On 1, you can be sure one of the players will declare an action or something out of fear
Usually when my players take too long to act, I ask point blank the person who's not arguing (there is always that someone) what are they doing while the party argues and they usually say something not too consequential, but that force the other players to either argue faster or intervene.
I allow my players to “roll for ideas” if they are actually stumped. They can make an intelligence roll, and depending on how high it is, I will either remind them of facts they may have forgotten, point out details that might be important, or even inform them of a strategy or two they hadn’t considered. I do tell them that the ideas they get from the roll aren’t necessarily good ideas, but simply more factors to work with. Sometimes even getting a terrible suggestion is enough to push them into making another decision. Plus, rolling low on intelligence makes them feel more comfortable doing something “stupid”.
the DM Lair the trick is to never actually tell them what to do, but to provide them with more options. One scenario was when my players were running away after stealing an artefact from a goblin tribe only to be ambushed during the night. The goblin boss had a sword to the ranger, holding them hostage until the artefact was returned. They were all pretty banged up and hadn’t finished the long rest by this point, and so were low on both health and spells. They were paralysed with uncertainty. Ranger rolled for ideas and I reminded her goblins are not known for their intelligence or perceptiveness, it may be possible to trick them. The ranger pretended they had the artefact in their bag and would get it out, while distracted the Druid just up and bodied the goblin boss, giving our ranger enough time to reach into their bag and grab a potion of gaseous form. The confused goblin boss tried and failed to attack the cloud while the rest of the party escaped with the artefact. The idea allowed the game to continue, and no agency was lost.
I've always trained my players to narrate their characters actions in third person: Player A narrates "Balcmeg lifts his axe and yells " 'nough talkin'! " and charges forward." Player B narrates "Callith shouts "No, you fool!" in a subdued voice, trying to remain quiet as he scrambles to grab ahold the orc." Additionally, my system allows for and encourages players to mechanically influence other players utilizing the same systems as they would use against NPCs. In the above example, I'd ask player A if he is going to resist the grapple attempt, and if so, player B would have to make a grapple check. Same can be, and would be done in a situation such as the one you're describing. Social combat is a relatively deep mechanic in my system, which also works on a curve (so it's easiest to convince another person that is more like you; an intelligent elf skilled in speaking would find it more difficult to persuade an orc than a human barbarian chieftain skilled in leadership) so it's not going to always be the "bard" who wins. Concession is always an option that is available, of course, so if a dissenting character elects to, they trust in the decision making of their comrade rather than argue the point. Additionally, I don't penalize them for the time it takes to narrate their parts, so long as it remains congruent with the rate at which events are unfolding in the world. I.e: even though it took 10 minutes for them to narrate their characters actions and speech, in relative time, it only took thirty seconds for them to figure out how they were going to defend that section of cavern from the goblin war party bearing down on them.
I had a player who was falling down a dark hole after failing an athletics check. It was far down enough were they could try to do something to stop themselves from falling. They didn't know what to do so I started counting and going "You fall 10ft, 20ft, 30ft" and so on. As I got to 90ft they asked "could you slow down on I'm trying to think" and I looked them in the face and went "You have fallen a total of 100ft, and continue to fall, 110ft, 120ft" it wasn't until they reached 190ft down this 400ft hole that they finally had pulled out part of their climbers kit and forced a few spikes into the wall, they took damage from the fall, but it was reduced since they never hit the actual ground. That same player learned that they can't take forever making decisions when it comes to things of urgency.
I let them sit and discuss. And I smile when they say some things and I frown at others and let them guess if that means anything. (it usually doesn't) Let the players be paranoid. They talk about what might be behind the door and give me ideas about what to put in the next dungeon. If I want to push them forward, I start throwing "wandering monsters" at them. I do not tell them the right answer, because there is no right answer. I adjust the campaign based on what they do.
My group, we run a version of the group leader. At the start of a session everyone except the party leader from the last session rolls a D20, highest is the party leader for that session and has final say on decisions. Players can always opt out if they like too.
Number 1 is a classic trick in the old Star Wars D6 (very much in tone with the game). Things are getting to slow ? A conduit blows up ! Stormtroopers show up ! The ships computer goes down ! somebody try pick their pockets ! Anything that requires immediate attention.
I usually have time constraints on my game in general and explain to the players that the world will go on without them. I explain that I won't be cruel about it but if they take a year detour away from their main goals, then things are going to change. I try to explain that NPCs can be impatient and not want to bother sitting around for too long or while they are bickering, the sacrifice is still progressing. I don't have an NPC tell them what they should do but instead have an NPC take action that makes sense for them to take. The blacksmith's daughter went missing and the guard calmed him down by saying these adventurers will find her. Well, you guys bickering for 20 mins is going to make it where he says "right, I gotta do this myself". So it forces them to understand that they need to come up with teamwork and make a choice. So with that going into it, they are usually less indecisive. Even so, I've had instances where people wanted to do this rather than that and vice versa and not want to budge because they feel "cheated" or "overruled all the time". I try the "you can go to one place, then the other" but sometimes, people get stubborn about the whole thing so I pull out the "well, it sounds like you want to split the party" and then give them my best joker smile. That usually makes them agree on a place much quicker. Sometimes, you have them agree to split the party and I try to do the "15 minutes of spot light" where I switch from scene to scene especially when tension goes up as a mini-cliffhanger. If it's at the end of the session and I feel like I can wrap up one of the stories, especially if it's not the main story that involves everyone (like if it's a personal character goal thing), I do a solo session during the week to resolve that and get that character back with the group as quickly as I can. My main advice is listen to why there is indecisiveness. I tell my players at the beginning that my goal is NOT to try to murder their characters. I want to have a nice amazing story as well and that I'm not their enemy. I control allies just like I control enemies but my goal isn't to be a DM murder hobo. I know some indecisiveness, especially with new players, is the fear of death and death meaning failure and losing the game. Some of it stems from not fully understanding what options they actually have so listing a few things from the scenario and from their character sheets that they might have forgotten because of stress helps them to understand the fuller picture and help them make a choice. A player can be very stressed when their favorite NPC's life is on the line and the options presented all sound like they would get that NPC killed so I like to try to soothe the emotions a bit to help the game progress and avoid any bad blood. As DMs and players, we have to pause when emotional overlap (or 'bleed' as some people call it) happens. Real emotions happen in these games especially when we're all invested and as a DM, you have the advantage of knowing way more than the players so I recommend trying to help players take a breather, even if that means calling a break so people calm down a little bit, before pushing a choice.
I want to comment on #9 as someone who uses npcs occasionally in this way. I run a game with 3 players, using the retainers that Matt Colville wrote in Strongholds and Followers. Occasionally the retainers will make suggestions to participate in the discussion. My players have learned that just because an npc suggests something doesn't mean that it is the right way to go. Droop, a goblin thief whom they captured and forced into service, sometimes makes bad suggestions on what they should do. They tried out one of his suggestions, thinking that it was me leading them in a certain direction and then they found out he was wrong. So now whenever an npc suggests something they take it as the npc, not necessarily the dm offering an idea. I'm not saying this works for everybody. It is just something that has worked for me.
Sometimes I seem to have the opposite problem. I'll reference an important detail in a room, or ask the players the fabled question "what do you want to do?" And I am met with silence. I think it's because my players didnt want to step on eachothers toes. 3 are vets while a 4th is brand new (and 63 years old btw!) However, I've noticed this problem decrease in the last few weeks. I dont know if it because of me getting better as a DM or the players getting more comfortable with eachother, or just them consciously trying to react when I mention things. Idk.
11. Make the dungeon become more aware of the players over time. This method follows similar tactics to the random encounter or time limit, by putting pressure on the players to make decisions relatively fast or face consequences. However, it takes after some stealth games and some board games by having an extra mechanic. Whether you call it a doom level, danger meter, or whatever, the idea is the same. After starting a dungeon, players will lose the advantages of surprise and tactics over time as the dungeon's denizens slowly become more aware that something is amiss and mobilize to gang up on the party or escape. This should happen over the course of a half an hour or more in game depending on the size of the dungeon, which makes the fact that combat almost always takes less than a minute (In game time) incredibly useful. The only flaw here is it requires the monsters to know what they are doing and react realistically to the intruders, meaning if you present this as a legitimate threat you can't back down later just because the players started picking up the pace, even if this leads to a tpk. There has to be a real chance that players get ambushed by what would have been multiple encounters if they were faster.
The party I'm running a game for like to recruit NPCs once in a while. While they answer questions based on what they know they have yet to ever decide for the party, which is good.
OOC discussions: Hey, it's food o'clock, where are we ordering from? Dude, I think your car alarm is going off. Charlie, is that your kid playing in the street? IC discussions: Whatever they are, NPC's always have some chance to overhear. characters can whisper their discussions, though as a convention we say, "This is a whispered/yelled discussion in {language} and we just speak at conversational tones in English. But yeah, NPC's always have some chance to hear the discussions, and they react appropriately. A guard will sound the alarm, a wandering dog will bark at them in greeting or warning (situation dependent), a hungry liger will pounce on the unattended pack mule, a scam artist will insert themselves into the conversation and offer a solution that profits them the most, the vampire casts Darkness on the group... - For the opening skit, I would let someone in the party see the door reclosing, and they all hear a solid bar "thunk" into place on the other side. What happened? Who was it? Are they going to be attacked? - The idea of designating a group leader - as a player with an assertive personality, I try to push one of the other players into that role as much as possible. In the game I run, the usual method is a blend of democracy, meritocracy, and anarchy. The "leader" often depends on the situation, such as the Paladin taking charge when there is a sudden combat, or the sorcerer taking charge of setting up ambushes or social encounters, or the rogue taking charge in towns and cities. Also, my players are older, more mature, and experienced, and will play different characters differently, even when it comes to who is steering the direction of the party. It's really cool to run for them. NPC's will look at the party members and using the NPC's predilections, assume different people are in charge. The party usually rolls with it. A noble will see the finery and gold on the sorcerer and assume he is in charge. A guard looks to the best armored and armed character and assumes they are in charge. A cleric looks for the most aligned holy symbol and chooses to treat them as at least the party spokesperson. - I do this to keep all the players involved, even if the character they are playing is not taking the group leader role. - I don't let NPC's decide for the party. I will have NPC's relate information the players might have forgotten, tell about "the last time we rushed a door, Davis took a ballista bolt to the chest.", or remind the party what they had declared was their purpose for being where they are. And the NPC can be WRONG! Sometimes I make the NPC wrong on purpose, sometimes it is my faulty memory. Sometimes (and NOT most of the time) the NPC advice is sub-optimal. "If we have the mage cast a fireball into the library, the enemies inside will be too worried about their books burning to set up an ambush!" (Yeah, or they might all run out at the party immediately, instead of being taken by surprise - plus the party is here to recover a book about the long lost blue honey bees of Aggrimist)
“Analysis paralysis” happens all the time and usually ends with the group just going with the first choice they initially dismissed... 50 minute talk to just “pick the lock” like they initially said they would lol. Good tips I could see the hourglass working for my players as they welcome combat but a timer leaves it vague as to what the consequence is.
The opening skit actually brings up an interesting discussion topic. In the skit, the wizard says, “I already cast fireball” and the dungeon master says that he didn’t because he needs time to adjudicate. In a game you can have players immediately shout out their actions and then complain about railroading of the DM says, “No, wait just a second, that didn’t happen.” How should the game be structured so that players can have the liberty to role play their character in the way they want to while giving the DM the space he needs to make rulings?
I once had a group with 3 players... Two of them would over-discuss everything, but the 3rd player, a minotaur barbarian, would always save the session with 2 simple words: "I charge!". It was never the wrong choice. Granted, neither were the things the other players discussed, but they went on too long. For the situation in the intro, my instinct for "everyone in the party simultaneously tries to do a different thing" is "Isn't that what turn order is for? Roll up a quick initiative & have them each perform their chosen action in turn." If this happens a lot, to avoid favoring the high Dex players I might make party-only initiatives just be a flat 1d20 roll with roll-off for ties.
When it comes to a door decision or something simple that they can't decide or are arguing over, I force an initiative. Then I describe it like, "as the argument continues, Tannir the rogue says, "guys". As you all look tannir is standing in the now open doorway. This method makes sure to move things along while keeping with the narrative and not taking away pc agency.
As a player I tend to just make an idea that's a compromise of the choices the party makes if that's possible. For example, the wizard wants to cast the comprehend languages ritual because there is a draconic word on the wall and some of the other members of the party want to move on so I just suggest writing the word down and casting the ritual at the end of the next short rest.
In my.... second (?) D&D-Session my players decided to take almost half an hour to decide, how far away from their camp they wanted to bring the bodies of the bandits they just killed...
I just tell them to roll initiative... Then I ask the first person what they do on their turn. Then I ask the next person what they want to do. And if they want to stop the first person they have to make a roll. And I go like that down the line giving everyone the chance to interrupt any person before then. They usually end up using high level spells on one another. So dumb. It's amazing.
My character has a special coin with the crests of the 2 primary draconic patron saints: Bahamut as heads and Tiamat as tails. If needed, I'll have to flip it for the sake of decision-making process.
The group I DM doesn’t have this issue. But this video is still interesting. The party has a ‘Leroy jenkins’ type btw. I already bought sandtimers however and if this issue creeps up I’ll use a timer.
My group is not apathetic but they have this strange habit of not asking questions wether it's to NPCs or to me the DM. Also they're never surprising. They always do the most predictable thing. If its a combat, you're damn well sure they're gonna kill the baddies and never anything else like capturing and interrogating one of them or trying to sneak their way around the combat. It's like I was railroading them but they do it by themselves when all I want is them disrupting my plans (and I've told them multiple times but they never change). They're boring but I don't have any other friends who wants to play TTRPG so I'm stuck with these guys. Any tips Luke ?
I roll random dice and make different faces which the players (my children) figure something terrible is about to happen. This usually gets a decision rolling. I only had to actually do something once, the first time.
@2:47 Because it disrupts the flow of the game, which disrupts the players' immersion. Make sure you sweep up that straw you tracked in on your way out.
Been using one min sand timer in combat and with indecisiveness for over a year. The sand has yet to expire. Pop it in front of the camera and stuff happens magicly.
Characters' social skills shouldn't be used on other players... unless you'd want the half-orc death knight to "wins" every "argument" because he as a +12 on intimidation rolls ^^
If you got four ideas from your four players or more, have them text it to you on the phone or gaming system be it a steam system to make it easier or roll20 or just at your table, have them roll for turn order and describe the events in order. Quite a simple start.
I would make it a contested will check. Let's say you have 2 players vs 3 on the decision. They each let the player with the highest Willpower roll with advantage given to the one with more players on their side. I would also insert the caveat that I wouldn't limit players' discussion time if they are discussing mechanics. They need to be able to take their time in understanding how a certain thing should work.
Number 2 is hit or miss for me. While I prefer to keep the clock moving, I don't mind pausing it sometimes for important decisions (especially if those decisions are heavily contingent on mechanics and/or DM rulings). For example: The players are outside of a room with some monsters in it. They are just peeking in and the monsters have not noticed them yet. They get an idea and choose to cast some spell or use some item(s) to get the advantage. If I realize that these wouldn't work, I will let them know and give them time to rethink it (Maybe the room is too small to fireball safely/it won't fit your instant fortress! Maybe they misunderstood what a spell can do, etc.). I do this since, in some cases (the small room, for example), I may have simply misrepresented the situation. In the case of spells, many spells that can cheese things (*cough cough* "Illusions!"), the usefulness is entirely DM dependent. I don't want to screw the players over and be like "Well, the trolls heard you talking about whether fireball was a radius or diameter (again!)..." In cases where the big bad guy is there staring them down and they decide to have a 30+ minute conversation while they make strategies that their characters could never have prepared in advance though? Yeah... After 5+ minutes tops, it is decision time guys; he is not going to stand there patiently.
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My last game a tried the Hour glass in which they were in the Hill Giant compound and after a certain amount of time the Hill Giant Chief escapes and later they retreated so back at square 1
We used "Standard operating procedures" for all doors, rooms, and hallways in a dungeon. Well, we were Military players (for the most part) so........
For my group they usually don’t come up with ideas for a situation unless they are super interested in the situation. This is fine by me because I like coming up with ideas for situation. Because of this, I usually let whatever happens happen whenever they make a decision.
I’m a player btw just realized how bad that looks lol.
I have been using a 30s sandwatch and every time I notice players decisions taking too long I use it.
Watched a game at a game shop I was shopping at where 4 players hit came to a situation where they had to make a Choice of what to do and the group spent 50 min making plans then 2nd guessing themselves which led to them talking themselves out off acting on any decision they came to. Finally the players threw their hands up and said that the DM was being unfair since everything they tried had failed. After a pause the DM informed the group that all they had done was talk about what to do and never actually did anything, so he had no idea what they thought they had failed at.
That sounds pretty normal. Lol
Typical D&D session lolol
I have to remind my group constantly that they need to actually do things in game, not ask me questions. "What if I do X?" "I dunno. Why don't you try it?"
@sum body I was shopping at the time. (Picking up dice debating buying new books etc...) The play area was near the books in the shop.
If I was at the table, at the 30 minute mark I would probably just face palm and tell the DM, "Screw it. I just want to play the game. If nobody decides to do anything in the next 5 minutes, my character does X consequence be damned." Not sure if that makes me a good player or a bad player though.
Call a cleric, call a cleric!
*Pulls out repeater crossbow *
But not for meeeeee.
I just place a bomb in the middle of the table and they have to make a decision before the bomb goes off, works pretty well tbh
How big a bomb?
@@theDMLair this is the real question
Maybe a pasta bomb.
Bomb irl... Works every time.
@@theDMLair for fun loosey goosey type games I suggest hand grenade size but for Tomb of Horrors I just stuck a nuke in the middle of the table
If NPC's are present I don't see any problems with NPC's nudging players towards a decision. The thing is that the NPC should do so in-character, which means that the decision the NPC nudged the players towards might not be the 'correct' one.
I agree with this: the NPC only knows certain things. Maybe they give the worst advice possible, but the players will hopefully recognize that the DM is trying to get the game moving.
In world input. Tavern master says oh I overheard x. Did you know y?
Yeah these are all really good points. And I totally agree. The sad thing is is that videos already been made and I can't go slip this in. Lol :-)
I've even specifically created NPC's that were "impulsive"... Take the "three doors" example. I'd roll a D6, and go with whatever the results were (provided no PC was ready to step up and do something of course)... 1-2 = Door #1, 3-4 = Door #2, 5-6 = Door #3... and that's the direction the NPC goes, for better and for worse, and probably grumbling something about indecisive or not having the brains given certain insects... whatever... make a show of it...
Yes, this has nuked more than one lovable NPC... AND no, I do NOT regret it. ;o)
@@theDMLair your video is a medium of discussion. If you wanted to you could always save these points for round two. But I'm content that you engage your viewers so well.
In the Army we called it "paralysis by analysis".
"Have an NPC nudge them along" is a perfectly valid option in my opinion but going back to the three doors example Luke gave earlier I would roll a d4 to randomly determine which door the NPC would advise them to go through so it isn't necessarily giving them the answer but it'll do a similar thing to asking one player which door they go through
Agreed if NPCs aren't always a direct tie to DM knowledge it can work fine.
One thing you don't want to do is teach your players that if they waffle on a decision long enough the DM, via an NPC, will give them the answer.
I use the hourglass method all the time. I have 6 hour glasses. 1, 3, 5, 10, 15, and 30 minutes. I will usually give them 1-5 minutes "before something happens"
I have used the 30 and 15 minutes in lieu of death saves for a character that was buried under bugs and another time when they were drowning. It was intense
Yeah totally dude. Hourglasses are useful in so many situations in the game.
@@theDMLair SUPER technical, those are not "hourglasses". They are sand timers. I am so pedantic right now! Anywho, please continue using timers as needed.
Well, I’ve still never heard the phrase “she has a sand timer figure”… “hourglasses” are allowed to measure less than an hour.
This is why every group can benefit from a "Leeroy..." once in a while.
I can't hear that battle cry without laughing. That was some epic shit.
I would do that. And then get called a dumbass for not waiting for the party to do thing this translated in game to My character being labeled a bimbo because she would “rush” into situations.
She never got the party into trouble though. If things backfired on her she was always able to get out of it.
Sorry that I didn’t want to waste a half hour of our 3 hour game time Trying to decide wether or not we wanted to forge a letter or sneak in as the help.
"I have Fat Cat hit on the door"
Cracked me up 😆
That was brilliant.
I for one have to think of a way to do that in a game. Hopefully in a way to make the DM laugh. Should we call it "Fatcatting"? The action of having your npc hireling or familiar seduce an inanimate object. Any idea's?
This might be a bit complicated, but something I found helpful with my group (who are seemingly incapable of committing to ANY idea). When the players' conversation drags along, I roll a d20 and then count up to the result. I repeat the process then with a d12, a d10, etc.
Most often than not, the players catch on something is happening and either let someone decide or make up their minds.
It kind of works like the hourglass option except it adds a layer of ambiguity, am I rolling for time? Am I rolling a random encounter? Am I just bored and want to hear the math rocks go click clack?
I have a set of metal dice and a wooden dice tower, for extra noise. Because players can't help but metagame at least a little bit, I sometimes like to increase the tension by randomly rolling a die.
Our DM just uses a noisy timer that goes tic-toc because none of us have any dice 😂
And when the time's up, he plays whatever music or noise track and does what he has to.
This works great for live games. What about for virtual?
@@bradleyrichard9283 @Bradley Richard With Roll20 it works pretty well just rolling the dice in the open. Haven't used any of the other platforms so cannoy say how well they work
#1, in the words of Matthew Colville... "ORCS ATTACK!"
Orcs be like: Again? This is boring, get someone else to do it
I agree let's get the mind flayers to do it instead.
Too simple. How about - orcs arrive? Let’s see what orcs these are after all.
One of my groups used to be really bad about that. I have an hourglass timer (two minutes) that I set on the table. Depending on how irritated the table argument made me determines what type of encounter. Anything from; “The opportunity has passed you by” to “a portal opens in front of you and a Vampiric, half-dragon Tarrasque lich steps forward to do battle” is fair game.
Now I’ve never had to do the latter but they’ve ended up captured by Orcs, narrowly avoided a 2:1 battle with Frost Giants (early campaign), missed the opportunity for a magic items and alerted a lieutenant for the BBEG to their plans.
Thank you, Luke! This video couldn’t have come at a better time for me. Last week’s session, my players only moved through 1 hour of time in the game world, and there wasn’t even any combat. They spent the whole session arguing over what to do out of character and trying to figure out how their spells work. One player got upset when I said that discussion was in character, since the PC’s need to be communicating with each other about a plan for them to be able to act together on it. There is a certain level of tactics that the PC’s in any competent and tight-knit adventuring party are expected to have discussed in character offscreen in order to fight together effectively or handle certain common emergencies, but specific non-combat scenarios that are dependent on information discovered in the dungeon do not fall into this category.
I ended up saying that the enemies in the dungeon heard them arguing in character, and this next session they’ll face a deadly encounter by CR, because they let the enemies set up an ambush by arguing in character in earshot of the enemies. Normally, letting them hear me roll dice behind the screen is enough to scare them into action, but your video convinced me to take the kid gloves off and raise the CR.
My last resort when the group is getting really off track is to have them make an intelligence or wisdom roll to realize how offbase their line of thinking is, but last session they all rolled terribly so it’s not perfect. Then again, I’m merely the apostle of the dice, and to defy them would be heresy, and if their character failed that check then the idiocy is in character.
Yeah I totally agree with the whole what you discuss out of character is your characters discussing in character in the game. When the clock is ticking in the game because they're discussing things out of the game then that put a sense of urgency on their decisions. There are some things that you would expect a elite Strike Force like an adventuring party to know because they talk about tactics and stuff all the time. But these moments of making decisions on things no those are completely in character moments. And The Game World should react to them taking forever to think and talk about things just as you're doing in your game as described above. So I don't see anything wrong with having them get ambushed by enemies that heard them talking and now have set up a deadly ambush. Players can't just take an hour in game when they've just been in combat that has alerted possibly other people in the dungeon to their presents. Like they need to keep moving they need to do stuff they can just sit there and talk all day. If they wanted to sit there and talk all day then they have to expect that the enemy is going to take action against them and it might result in things like a big Ambush. This is only logical. This is verisimilitude that of the game.
Whole session goes by arguing? Your decision is warranted.
I just used #1 the other day, with interesting results. The players were standing at the entrance to a goblin lair completely unable to determine whether to enter or not. It got to the point everyone was arguing for and against. I had an encounter planned for when they exited the lair, so I just bumped that encounter up. Instead of engaging this new encounter (a group of soldiers sent by the most recent villain to "deal" with the goblins for the local town) the players decided to retreat *into* the goblin lair. One member of the party (a new player) was unknown, so, when the soldiers entered the lair behind them they decided to talk then, with only this new guy visible. So, this new guy, having just encountered the group and not aware yet of their history with this villain and the goblins, tried to convince them to work with them against the goblins. From an outside perspective this made sense, but, the rest of the party was well aware that this villain and the goblins served the same BBEG. They debated on just using that opportunity to slip out, but instead, for reasons I'm not sure about, decided to see what happened.
So, they hear the guards call out "goblins!" and then combat, the new player, a dwarf paladin, of course immediately goes to their aid, the rest of the party didn't say or do anything. So the paladin attacked the orc one of the guards was "fighting" and obviously, was then attacked by the orcs and soldiers (to eliminate witnesses as they were still unaware of who the rest of the party was.) This surprise attack against the paladin all by himself nearly killed him and the party was forced to a fighting retreat out of the dungeon. Both the encounters had been planned to, separately, be low to moderate challenge, together it was tough, but beatable within the confines of the dungeon (out in the open it would have been very hard to unbeatable.)
The party managed a successful retreat, killing a large portion of the enemies in the process, and decided to vacate the premises, continuing the travel they had been on. What they didn't know was, by that time the enemy forces had been decimated and it would have been fairly simple for them to go back in, finish them off and get the loot. Instead they walked away defeated and empty handed.
I bet they learned their lesson about waffling for too long, not that it will stop them from doing it again.
My personal favorite is, i will ask a random player (and usually pick someone with low wisdom) to roll a perception check for me. A note down the result and say
"okay, good to know"
and say nothing else. Every time I've used this it has added a much needed sense of urgency to a discussion. If I ask for a second check they will usually make a choice then and there and go.
If they get to three they will get ambaushed by something appropriate to the area they are in. But they usually don't let it get to three.
NEXT WEEK you will be talking about Character Owned Property - HOMES FOR THE P-CHARACTERS -
- How do the PCs get their own first lair without enough money to actually buy one?
- What does a full renovation cost?
- How can they upgrade it even further?
- What protective measures can they install?
- How much would it cost to hire Dwarfs to make the PCs their own dungeon underneath their new home? (This is what my group is doing right now).
- What makes a home come alive? = A servant or caretaker. Like Alfred in Batman.
- Do they need a house guard?
- How much does a house guard cost? Prices differs depending on how good it is. What does the house guard need to not be bored out of his mind since 99,99% of the time bad stuff aint happening?
- What makes the players not bored to do all this? = 1: Roleplay some of it; shop stores, some price haggling etc. 2: But time skip some of it, like a full renovation might take 2 weeks, let those two weeks pass during THAT SESSION, and make the players feel they got their new home done and complete, so they can happily return to it after their upcoming adventures.
I just introduced this so successfully to my group and even the guy who hates this type of roleplay LOVED it: "No other GM has actually made this type of play interesting, and you made us roleplay it, design it and have it during the same session without us having to meta-game scroll through boring pricing lists (I, the DM, had all the prices ready in my head for that session). And the fact that our bard could haggle the prices and also made the merchants accept installment payment was brilliant, now we have an awesome home to return to and store our cool trophys in, and i love it".
I recommend you to watch Taking20's vid "How to Create a Home Base for Your Dungeons and Dragons Players". Your vid title must also have the words "Home" "Lair" "Hideout" etc, and "D&D" so others can find it when searching for it.
There are also some nice PDFs on the DMs Lair that can help DMs with this: "Fortresses, Temples, & Strongholds" and "Player Owned Property for 5e" are both great.
Not to mention things like the old BECMI rules.
@@Cybermaul Which are those?
@@PerfectionHunter Oh! A set of rule books were included in the D&D "Red Box", labeled Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, and Immortal. The Expert and Companion books have details for the construction and staffing of strongholds.
Another option is to use that trick cgp gray has in a video. "Hands up if you're okay with casting fireball" "hands up if you're okay with trying to seduce the door " "hands up if you're okay with hacking at it with the barbarians great ax"
And if your players vote twice who gives a damn, that's the point.
I am in two campaigns online right now. One of the DMs got very frustrated because the amount of side content he added slowed down the game a ton. One of the things he wanted us to do involved paying for sailors for our ship. It caused us to spend hours talking about options, things to purchase for the ship, and other general budget options.
Whenever a DM does something like that they're basically asking for it.
I myself have elected to just let the game run at its own pace as long as the players seem to be in it. In the meantime I'm just sitting there prepping the next session, taking notes, or looking through monsters to throw at them.
Are the players having fun? Then tell the DM to enjoy it. You either enjoy keeping your players happy or you don't.
My newish players (wife and kids) struggle with decisions. I feel it is partly my fault for not doing the best job giving them info but they never take notes and they often forget the information I give. They don't seem to mind much and I have only had to "give them the answer" once so far. They are still working on the "do anything they want part" and they think there are specific things they have to do. Luckily my older son who plays has a long history of video game playing, so he is able to improvise decisions a little better and helps the group along. We still have a blast though.
Give rewards for taking notes. Minor NPC boons, a little extra XP, advantage on a check or even a saving throw.
“Because you remembered the shopkeeper’s name and asked about his kids, he’s feeling friendly today! You get a 20 percent discount for this trip.”
As long as you’re not running intrigue, where everyone would need to remember many details, this system really gives players extra reasons to take notes.
I really like the idea of using Number 3. Just having an hourglass out in open can be quite stressful to players especially since the players don’t know what will happen when the hourglass finishes. Thanks for the advice, Luke. I just bought some hourglasses and I’m going to start using that method on my players. I also wanted to say thank you for the shoutout. I really appreciate it. You and your content are amazing, Luke and as always, your skits at the beginning are hilarious. I love it. :)
So i'm DMing for a group of 7, of which most are still rather inexperienced. They are enjoying the RP, they do interact with the world, they listen to each other..
When the time comes for a decision, they are very slow to find one, as none wants to force their way of action upon any of the others, and while this is nice, results in RP, and all that, it really really slows the game down. Their current situation is rather safe, so random encounters would feel off, and there are multiple plot hooks they could take. They have a mystery to solve, just have to start of with any of the plothooks (which the players know).. we spent an entire session on this (and related) discussion,.. and I mean none of them is complaining, am I just too impatient?
The thing is your fun is important too. And just becaise no one complains doesn't mean they arent thinking it. They also might enjoy a faster pace if they were able to experience it for once. You never know how good chocolate is until you try it.
Just a guess, here... BUT with most of your Table "inexperienced", I'm thinking that you ALSO haven't had much time in the seat for this group as "Active GM"... Meaning, they've got just enough experience in the Game to have heard some of the antics and horror stories (side effect of internet access, even beyond the "Mercer Effect") so there hasn't been a chance really, to build any trust between you (GM) and the group of Players.
Yeah, your fun counts for something, too... AND sooner or later, there's going to be a point where the Players are meant to make assumptions that are incorrect. At some point, that's going to have to cost them. Just be cautious (at first, anyway) about implementing mischief and under-handed tactics on them, so they can gain a bit of confidence in their decision-making, and you'll likely see a steady up-tick in pace.
At the end of the day, you can (and should) try communicating with them. Explain some of the angst, and offer some coaching. Just being consistent about foreshadowing a bit before you unleash something secretly too awful to handle accounts for a lot in Player-GM trust issues... especially when dealing with relatively Novice Players. ;o)
If you don`t want to punish your players for taking too long, but still want to speed things up, you could try doing the opposite (positive reinforcement). Try to implement, if possible, an extra reward for solving the mystery quickly.
If that doesn`t seem enough, up the stakes by making it affect something of your world instead of the party (this may only work if your players actually care about the rest of the world).
I should probably implement some of these. It's not too bad, but I'm running a sandbox game, and sometimes if the players didnt have anything planned, they get a bit of choice paralasys, especially since it's borderline turning into a large scale strategy game, now that they're setting up forts and contracts
I have some analysis paralysis now in my curse of strahd game. Players in Vallaki and lots of options of what tp do. Decisions are much harder in open world games.
If multiple players want to do an action at the same time, I will sometimes have them roll initiative or some other determining factor. If all actions are physical, roll initiative to see who reacts first. If all actions are magical, roll arcana to see who can cast their spell first. Part physical, part magical? Roll physically related skill (Athletics, Acrobatics, etc.) versus the magical (Arcana, History, etc.). This can give each player a chance to react based on what they are wanting to do and keep it in the realm of possiblity for their characters. On a tie for magical effects, consider if a spell used is a bonus action, since those are typically faster to get off.
I am flabbergasted as to how you aren't a bigger channel... The Dungeon Coach mentioned you in a video and I came here. Thank you so much! In the past I always had an NPC run up to a party member or a random battle happen (at 1/2 XP&CR) when PC's talk for more than 4 minutes (two 2min sand timers behind screen).
Next session they will have a leader and a timer they can all see!
If players are having trouble agreeing on what to do that sounds like a good time to roll initiative between them to see who does their thing first.
Love the rolling d6 idea thats great. I have definitely found the sand timers to be very effective even if I have no idea whats gonna happen when it runs out as well lol. Also helps when you have a player taking to long to decide what to do in combat!
Especially if you do it a couple times and wait while writing them down everytime
Added points if you can make it sound like if your wildly scribbling the whole time like your making a encounter on the fly
@@arroniousiii1380 haha love it! Great idea 💡
I’m a big fan of doing fake rolls behind the screen. I’ve got a set of dice that have no numbers on them, they’re just blank. So I’ll ask a random player what their perception is, do a roll behind the screen, pretend to look at my notes, and then say “hmm...okay cool”. Inevitably I get asked what that was for roll was for and hit them with the classic “you don’t know” and just stare at the group.
Man that skit was funny, and you picked a great topic today
Thanks! 😀
"Hit on the door" could only have came of the mind of a genius
Thank you. I do have my moments. :-)
it's funny that this video showed up when it did, my last dnd session was a nightmare for indecisiveness.........We spent 90 minutes "debating" if we should eat a pastry....despite the DM clearly saying it's a plot hook, obvious plot hook is obvious. EAT THE DAMN PASTRY!! the DM cried
Curse of Strahd? 😂
@@theDMLair how'd you guess :)
Thank you so much for all these videos. They’ve been very helpful in preparing me for my first time DMing.
I used to frequently have this problem in my current group. After one really bad session, I talked to them about this issue at the start of the next game, and we discussed certain behaviors that lead debates in circles. Wouldn't you know, I've never had this problem since.
11:43 I've seen Matt Mercer use NPC's, but not by giving his players an answer, he uses them to break the cycle to realize that they need to do something, or someone is waiting, etc
Ways to not give a hint but still force action:
NPC is getting visibly impatient / irritated with you
The NPC is now walking away (or out of position for an ideal ambush)
If the NPC is an ally in a dungeon they voice concerns in character, if its the doorway roll and that decides the door they suggest. (Somethings the CR group will ask the NPC what he wants and Matt will deflect back because they are clearly asking for the answer)
Also its never wrong to as the DM just say hurry up. (Not necessarily in those exact words)
That introduction was delicious
(pun intended)
I'm so hungry now
@@theDMLair same
My Tomb of Horrors squad took 3 hours of planning and testing first room before entering it. We crushed this adventure.
One thing i've learned in my first DM-ing adventure, was to slightly limit choices. My dungeon had 5 options to go to, but they got them pretty much at the same moment. Rather then the players following the dragmarks that they found, they started arguing about where to go. Afterwards we talked, and I learned that it would be better to just have a single split, limiting their options from 3, down to 2. Still having the same amount of chambers, just a diferent layout, and they'd be arguing less about what to do/where to go.
This might be something related to my group, but I've learned that they are quicker at making simple decisions (go left or right) then when they need to decide on a way to go when there are 3 options, so now I just give them splits in the path, rather then choices to speed up my game (6PC's, the discussions take way too long...)
Not just your group. That's humans. Sales professionals know the human decision loop, and teach that you either offer the potential sucker, er, um, customer only two choices (the bad one and the one that gets you the most profit) or three choices (the cheapo flimsy one, the super expensive "all the bells and whistles" one, or the middle-grade one that is secretly the one you want to sell.
My answer to that is give them reasons to chose on more than the other: to youre left, there is a trace of blood on the floor. A strange smell is coming out on the right. Nothing special about the strait passage...
@@denisnadeau865 definitely, you could even go so far as to have signs. This way the choices may be labeled "Armory", "Barracks", and "Main Hall" giving some expectations about the rooms beyond the "tracking markings" of blood splatters/trails, Claw marks / physical damage, smells, sounds.
I know that CR C2 had used this to great effect in the final arc. It really tore at the players to decide between "magical room of red buttons" and the bad guys went that way and you are on a very strict time limit.
Also having say 5 paths but if 3 are labeled things like bakery, Stables, and Barracks when the players are explicitly looking for the vault to steal from tells them, there are other paths but you don't actually want to go down them. So you get the illusion of a fleshed out world and they get an easy choice of 2 paths of interest.
And maybe they need to make a quick getaway and remember that the stables were that way and they steal horses on the way out aiding escape and hampering pursuit.
So definitely give them enough data to make a real choice, otherwise they may as well roll a die to pick the path since they are all equal. (Dark tunnels with bad omens at the entrance)
In regard to no. 9:
An NPC can be useful if you establish that they are NOT the DM giving the party the "correct" answer. Establishing the NPC's point of view early can help provide an in-world voice to bring the players back to the realization that "Hey, our characters are taking too long to make a decision and the people in the world are starting to notice." Bonus points if the NPC gives bad advice disguised as good advice every now and then to encourage the players to make their own decisions and take the information provided in-world with a grain of salt.
I have found that new players are the most hesitant to make decisions or do anything so what I have done for the first adventure of any campaign I start is to create a adventure that has many choices then for each encounter with choices make it a multiple choice adventure. This helps them understand what kind of actions they can take, whether they are right or wrong. I have found this goes a long way in encouraging actions from the players, [because this is something that they know]. Example: You see a armed man in the middle of the road, he appears to be waiting for you to approach. What do you do? a) Approach the armed man cautiously. b) Immediately attack the armed man. or c) Wait and see what the man does. Obviously there are a multitude of other choices they could make and they should be allowed, but this gets their minds going and this should be a short adventure because your just trying to get them thinking. BTW I liked your idea about the dice for each player great idea!
I think some indecision and back and forth on what to do is part of the game, and a necessary part of the collaborative element of the game. Yes, sometimes you have to nudge the players along when they are spinning their tires or wasting too much time on something minor, but occasionally, it's helpful to the overall health of the game to let the party get caught up in an extensive debate on what to do, particularly with moral dilemmas or game-changing decisions. If it's just "do we go up to the door and use the secret knock the DM handed us on a silver platter" then yes, push them along. If it's a world-shaping campaign defining moment, give them some time and only nudge them along when they are noticeably done with the conversation but not quite at a conclusion.
We’ve had this exact issue with doors in our campaign. Our talks on what to do about doors became so infamous, our party was granted the official party name “The Unhinged” in honor of our reckless behavior towards all future doors after our literal hour long discussion on how to get past our first door. How did we finally get past our first door? We knocked, and someone opened the door for us.
Getting past doors always ends up so complicated but its really simple:
1. Check for traps (if suspicious location)
2. Try to open it (is it locked?)
3. Attempt lockpicking
4. Smash your way through
5. Find a new path you failures
Alternatively if it isn't a dungeon try being polite and civil and just knock. Even if it is a dungeon you could consider knocking and grab the guard who opens it, will not work in all situations. (Like if you are spotted/in combat and they know they hate you)
I use number 1 a lot.
Also number 2
all my games run on time tables.
The king will die in an hour if they dont get the antidote so they can wait as long as they want but time will keep moveing forward
I use number 3, if they’re taking to long the timer comes out.
I primarily put out a 1-minute “hour” glass and start it. If they ask what that is for, I tell them you are in a dangerous area, it’s very possible something will happen or show up if you don’t make a decision before it runs out. I also use for those players that can’t decide what to do in combat. After a minute or so, I place it out front. I tell them, you are in combat. You don’t have time to waffle. That is why it’s important to pay attention what is happening on the battle field. Once the timer runs out, if you haven’t taken action or state your holding a specific action triggered by a specific event, you lose your turn. It amazing how it speeds up decisions in combat also.
A fun way to deal with indecision of opening a door, EVERY NOW AND THEN, is to have an NPC or Creature able to open doors do so and find the PCs there discussing what action to take.
Since we roll initiatives prior to any combat encounters, in those moments, I will have the two closest to the door roll d20s + Initiative Mod against the NPC/Creature opening the door and their same roll. That combat round goes in order of highest roll first. Only those rolling can participate in that combat round based on THAT particular initiative roll. Then we go to the standard Initiative order.
The other way I help move things along is I roll a d4 behind screen. They hear it go through the tower. I then place it out front showing a 1 or 2, even if rolled a 3 or 4. They know something will happen in that many rounds. I then start at the beginning of the Initiative Order asking what each player wants to do (again we roll prior to the next combat encounter at first of the session or right after post combat activity). When I have completed that many passes through the Initiative Order, something happens that fits the scenario they are facing. It may be something or someone interrupting them, a sound they hear moving toward them. May even suddenly create a release of some type of gas from tiny holes in the ceiling or if no one looked up to scan for traps or from some other area they didn’t search for traps or investigate. Something will happen or show up!
After jumping into the DM seat due to multiple failures to rotate, I will say that I do actually really enjoy the DM seat…
However, being able to see the group function the way it does, this video hits home.
Geezer here....
There are sooooo many ways.
Ok... After talking for way to long you awake..... In????
Roll initiative. (Not for combat)... You see a kobold or whatever raising the great finger of defiance... Ducks around the corner, rock, tree or whatever.... He/she is carrying off a sack of loot, their stuff... Like maybe anything they might miss later.
In my experience one of the best ways to keep a table moving is for sure to make all game time in character time. Your point on character "time stop" is gospel or should be.
Great vid as always.
Thanks.
Game on.
I once had a situation where the party was taking their sweet time deciding what to do with a big bad they had captured in a castle. My son was in the party and sent me a text message along the lines “Baggy’s pyromaniacy gets the better of him and he starts a fire in one of the nearby rooms.” The party had to start making perception rolls to notice the smoke, then bug the hell out of there. He had already established his tendency to set things on fire earlier in the campaign to great effect. It turned out to be a great “random encounter” that forced decisions to move faster. It also cut off several options and moved them in the best direction they had been avoiding because it felt like a trap.
Now, any time there is a fire, they all look to the Halfling and go “what did you do??”
I was once running a group that had to infiltrate an army on the move in an ice country. They spent more than an hour deciding how to do it. In the end the army passed and they were attacked by Winter Wolfs that I had warned existed. All died
One of the hardest things I deal with is if I should have characters automatically roll for perception checks every turn for traps and perception checks at doors, expect them to remember every time it's their turn or prompt them if I think they need to make one or not. I feel like if a dungeon, for example, is a total of 600 squares and if they move 6 squares a turn, that would be asking them to remember to make 60 perception checks for traps and thats not including for doors and other perception checks. One idea I've had which I haven't tried out yet is having the characters pre roll some perception checks and have them reroll every once and a while so they don't know when or if they've passed by a trap or not. From looking around a lot of dnd youtubers I don't think I've seen a topic about this yet. Thanks your videos are awesome
Also, same with stealth checks.
Yo, are those the wheel of time books in the background!? Those are incredible!
Or just roll the dice loudly behind your DM screen. Possibly while asking everyone what their passive perception or other stat is. Then just smile menacingly and say, "okay."
I of course like the hourglass best.
On a similar but different note, (non D&D) my group was preparing to run a public ritual once and the students started harping on minutia. (Who's going to light the incense? Who's going to mix the salt water?) Now in putting together a big public event there are certainly some important, "Who's in charge of what?" questions. These weren't that kind of questions, and not only was the best answer, "Whoever's nearby and doesn't have a job at the time," but also they were messing with my concentration regarding the BIG things that DID have to be covered. I finally went and got one of those Magic Eight Balls, and when asked an annoying question, would shake the 8 Ball and consult it. After about the 3rd time they got the point. Something like this might work in game - pull it out and consult it yourself (again a menacing glance around the table) or give it to the players and tell them to use the device to decide.
Trivia: The thing inside the Magic 8 Ball is a dodecahedron, a.k.a. a d20.
As a DM if my group starts getting indecisive i have them write down a leader of the group (cannot be themselves) to make the decision as a whole. I gather the paper and tally it up. If its a tie I roll a D20 (evens being one person and odds being another) i found that this helps and the leader stays the deciding factor for the rest of the campaign.
I like the Survivor-esque tactic! Except you’re voting someone ONTO the island. And nobody worries about being left out.
Nudging an indecisive group? Matt Colville: orks attack.
And now back to the vid.
This video caught my interest, not due to being a dungeon master but due to being personally an indecisive player. Rather than group decisions, my individual decisions take time. This is especially true when given a new system and/or a new game group and it takes more time to chew through options and evaluate player reactions. I'm generally an overthinker and very self-conscious, and it doubles up when I fear something I do inconveniences the rest of the party / is stupid / is out of character / etc. Last time it happened, my game master reassured that everything was alright, no one was annoyed by my "ummmmm" moments, but it still bothers me and I hate it. Still I don't want to just sit aside and let things happen to me, I also want to make things happen.
This video had some great tools that even I could use on myself, like just randomizing what my character does if I get in stuck or delegating the final decision to the party leader ("My character asks the party boss character if my character should just shoot that goblin"). Another idea my GM threw is that my character plays a flashback in their mind about the party combat training they had in their past and use that as a frame to ask other players if the idea I have could be useful (in that specific campaign I play a rather inexperienced character).
On longer run, I think that easing factors would get more familiar and comfortable with the system and player group, so I wouldn't need to use that much energy to anything else than the actual decision. The more clearly I can think, the less likely I enter to decision paralysis.
What comes to the nudging option, I would personally be comfortable if the GM nudged me if I enter into a decision paralysis (such as pointing out a thing that my character especially pays attention onto, hence clarifying what is most relevant in the situation). Otherwise no nudging thanks.
Awesome! Im happy to hear this was useful as a player too! 😀
Number 1 happily reminds me of Matt Colville's Orcs Attack video!
The concept is similar yes.
this video really helps me because I am dming a group of 5 new players, and most of them (3) are passive players, or rather reactive, relying on the other 2 to take the lead and make decisions. one of the active players actually complained to me that he felt like he was the only one really involved in the game and so he feels less motivated than if everyone participated equally. and it is really frustrating for me as he was one of the most motivated players when we began the campaign!
If the Demon Lord doesn't come through the portal in 30 minutes the party pizza is free.
I usually just raise my hands and start counting from 10 to 0. On 1, you can be sure one of the players will declare an action or something out of fear
Usually when my players take too long to act, I ask point blank the person who's not arguing (there is always that someone) what are they doing while the party argues and they usually say something not too consequential, but that force the other players to either argue faster or intervene.
I've been the person not arguing, and I often agree with the barbarian. Hack the door down, don't even TRY the handle!
Druid: I have Fatcat hit on the door
Me: *Hysterical laughter*
I allow my players to “roll for ideas” if they are actually stumped.
They can make an intelligence roll, and depending on how high it is, I will either remind them of facts they may have forgotten, point out details that might be important, or even inform them of a strategy or two they hadn’t considered.
I do tell them that the ideas they get from the roll aren’t necessarily good ideas, but simply more factors to work with. Sometimes even getting a terrible suggestion is enough to push them into making another decision.
Plus, rolling low on intelligence makes them feel more comfortable doing something “stupid”.
Yeah resorting to "phone the DM" should be for truly stumped moments.
the DM Lair the trick is to never actually tell them what to do, but to provide them with more options.
One scenario was when my players were running away after stealing an artefact from a goblin tribe only to be ambushed during the night. The goblin boss had a sword to the ranger, holding them hostage until the artefact was returned. They were all pretty banged up and hadn’t finished the long rest by this point, and so were low on both health and spells. They were paralysed with uncertainty.
Ranger rolled for ideas and I reminded her goblins are not known for their intelligence or perceptiveness, it may be possible to trick them.
The ranger pretended they had the artefact in their bag and would get it out, while distracted the Druid just up and bodied the goblin boss, giving our ranger enough time to reach into their bag and grab a potion of gaseous form. The confused goblin boss tried and failed to attack the cloud while the rest of the party escaped with the artefact.
The idea allowed the game to continue, and no agency was lost.
I've always trained my players to narrate their characters actions in third person:
Player A narrates "Balcmeg lifts his axe and yells " 'nough talkin'! " and charges forward."
Player B narrates "Callith shouts "No, you fool!" in a subdued voice, trying to remain quiet as he scrambles to grab ahold the orc."
Additionally, my system allows for and encourages players to mechanically influence other players utilizing the same systems as they would use against NPCs. In the above example, I'd ask player A if he is going to resist the grapple attempt, and if so, player B would have to make a grapple check. Same can be, and would be done in a situation such as the one you're describing. Social combat is a relatively deep mechanic in my system, which also works on a curve (so it's easiest to convince another person that is more like you; an intelligent elf skilled in speaking would find it more difficult to persuade an orc than a human barbarian chieftain skilled in leadership) so it's not going to always be the "bard" who wins. Concession is always an option that is available, of course, so if a dissenting character elects to, they trust in the decision making of their comrade rather than argue the point.
Additionally, I don't penalize them for the time it takes to narrate their parts, so long as it remains congruent with the rate at which events are unfolding in the world. I.e: even though it took 10 minutes for them to narrate their characters actions and speech, in relative time, it only took thirty seconds for them to figure out how they were going to defend that section of cavern from the goblin war party bearing down on them.
I had a player who was falling down a dark hole after failing an athletics check. It was far down enough were they could try to do something to stop themselves from falling. They didn't know what to do so I started counting and going "You fall 10ft, 20ft, 30ft" and so on. As I got to 90ft they asked "could you slow down on I'm trying to think" and I looked them in the face and went "You have fallen a total of 100ft, and continue to fall, 110ft, 120ft" it wasn't until they reached 190ft down this 400ft hole that they finally had pulled out part of their climbers kit and forced a few spikes into the wall, they took damage from the fall, but it was reduced since they never hit the actual ground. That same player learned that they can't take forever making decisions when it comes to things of urgency.
I let them sit and discuss.
And I smile when they say some things and I frown at others and let them guess if that means anything. (it usually doesn't)
Let the players be paranoid. They talk about what might be behind the door and give me ideas about what to put in the next dungeon.
If I want to push them forward, I start throwing "wandering monsters" at them.
I do not tell them the right answer, because there is no right answer. I adjust the campaign based on what they do.
Yes!
The hourglass idea is pretty good. Have to remember that.
My group, we run a version of the group leader. At the start of a session everyone except the party leader from the last session rolls a D20, highest is the party leader for that session and has final say on decisions. Players can always opt out if they like too.
Number 1 is a classic trick in the old Star Wars D6 (very much in tone with the game). Things are getting to slow ? A conduit blows up ! Stormtroopers show up ! The ships computer goes down ! somebody try pick their pockets ! Anything that requires immediate attention.
"You guys can't do disparate actions at the same time!" My Battletech and Shadowrun players; 🤐🥱😡
I usually have time constraints on my game in general and explain to the players that the world will go on without them. I explain that I won't be cruel about it but if they take a year detour away from their main goals, then things are going to change. I try to explain that NPCs can be impatient and not want to bother sitting around for too long or while they are bickering, the sacrifice is still progressing. I don't have an NPC tell them what they should do but instead have an NPC take action that makes sense for them to take. The blacksmith's daughter went missing and the guard calmed him down by saying these adventurers will find her. Well, you guys bickering for 20 mins is going to make it where he says "right, I gotta do this myself". So it forces them to understand that they need to come up with teamwork and make a choice. So with that going into it, they are usually less indecisive. Even so, I've had instances where people wanted to do this rather than that and vice versa and not want to budge because they feel "cheated" or "overruled all the time". I try the "you can go to one place, then the other" but sometimes, people get stubborn about the whole thing so I pull out the "well, it sounds like you want to split the party" and then give them my best joker smile. That usually makes them agree on a place much quicker. Sometimes, you have them agree to split the party and I try to do the "15 minutes of spot light" where I switch from scene to scene especially when tension goes up as a mini-cliffhanger. If it's at the end of the session and I feel like I can wrap up one of the stories, especially if it's not the main story that involves everyone (like if it's a personal character goal thing), I do a solo session during the week to resolve that and get that character back with the group as quickly as I can. My main advice is listen to why there is indecisiveness. I tell my players at the beginning that my goal is NOT to try to murder their characters. I want to have a nice amazing story as well and that I'm not their enemy. I control allies just like I control enemies but my goal isn't to be a DM murder hobo. I know some indecisiveness, especially with new players, is the fear of death and death meaning failure and losing the game. Some of it stems from not fully understanding what options they actually have so listing a few things from the scenario and from their character sheets that they might have forgotten because of stress helps them to understand the fuller picture and help them make a choice. A player can be very stressed when their favorite NPC's life is on the line and the options presented all sound like they would get that NPC killed so I like to try to soothe the emotions a bit to help the game progress and avoid any bad blood. As DMs and players, we have to pause when emotional overlap (or 'bleed' as some people call it) happens. Real emotions happen in these games especially when we're all invested and as a DM, you have the advantage of knowing way more than the players so I recommend trying to help players take a breather, even if that means calling a break so people calm down a little bit, before pushing a choice.
Group Leader. We call that a Caller in D&D and it used to be the recommended option.
Matt Coleville has a video on this as well. "Orcs Attack"
Yes. That entire video is basically condensed into my first point.
I love how you said bless your players hearts for being so indecisive. I'm from the south and that's like the polite southern way to say f*** you. Lol
I want to comment on #9 as someone who uses npcs occasionally in this way. I run a game with 3 players, using the retainers that Matt Colville wrote in Strongholds and Followers. Occasionally the retainers will make suggestions to participate in the discussion. My players have learned that just because an npc suggests something doesn't mean that it is the right way to go. Droop, a goblin thief whom they captured and forced into service, sometimes makes bad suggestions on what they should do. They tried out one of his suggestions, thinking that it was me leading them in a certain direction and then they found out he was wrong. So now whenever an npc suggests something they take it as the npc, not necessarily the dm offering an idea.
I'm not saying this works for everybody. It is just something that has worked for me.
Sometimes I seem to have the opposite problem. I'll reference an important detail in a room, or ask the players the fabled question "what do you want to do?" And I am met with silence. I think it's because my players didnt want to step on eachothers toes. 3 are vets while a 4th is brand new (and 63 years old btw!) However, I've noticed this problem decrease in the last few weeks. I dont know if it because of me getting better as a DM or the players getting more comfortable with eachother, or just them consciously trying to react when I mention things. Idk.
11. Make the dungeon become more aware of the players over time. This method follows similar tactics to the random encounter or time limit, by putting pressure on the players to make decisions relatively fast or face consequences. However, it takes after some stealth games and some board games by having an extra mechanic. Whether you call it a doom level, danger meter, or whatever, the idea is the same.
After starting a dungeon, players will lose the advantages of surprise and tactics over time as the dungeon's denizens slowly become more aware that something is amiss and mobilize to gang up on the party or escape. This should happen over the course of a half an hour or more in game depending on the size of the dungeon, which makes the fact that combat almost always takes less than a minute (In game time) incredibly useful.
The only flaw here is it requires the monsters to know what they are doing and react realistically to the intruders, meaning if you present this as a legitimate threat you can't back down later just because the players started picking up the pace, even if this leads to a tpk. There has to be a real chance that players get ambushed by what would have been multiple encounters if they were faster.
The party I'm running a game for like to recruit NPCs once in a while. While they answer questions based on what they know they have yet to ever decide for the party, which is good.
OOC discussions: Hey, it's food o'clock, where are we ordering from? Dude, I think your car alarm is going off. Charlie, is that your kid playing in the street?
IC discussions: Whatever they are, NPC's always have some chance to overhear. characters can whisper their discussions, though as a convention we say, "This is a whispered/yelled discussion in {language} and we just speak at conversational tones in English.
But yeah, NPC's always have some chance to hear the discussions, and they react appropriately. A guard will sound the alarm, a wandering dog will bark at them in greeting or warning (situation dependent), a hungry liger will pounce on the unattended pack mule, a scam artist will insert themselves into the conversation and offer a solution that profits them the most, the vampire casts Darkness on the group...
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For the opening skit, I would let someone in the party see the door reclosing, and they all hear a solid bar "thunk" into place on the other side. What happened? Who was it? Are they going to be attacked?
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The idea of designating a group leader - as a player with an assertive personality, I try to push one of the other players into that role as much as possible. In the game I run, the usual method is a blend of democracy, meritocracy, and anarchy. The "leader" often depends on the situation, such as the Paladin taking charge when there is a sudden combat, or the sorcerer taking charge of setting up ambushes or social encounters, or the rogue taking charge in towns and cities. Also, my players are older, more mature, and experienced, and will play different characters differently, even when it comes to who is steering the direction of the party. It's really cool to run for them.
NPC's will look at the party members and using the NPC's predilections, assume different people are in charge. The party usually rolls with it. A noble will see the finery and gold on the sorcerer and assume he is in charge. A guard looks to the best armored and armed character and assumes they are in charge. A cleric looks for the most aligned holy symbol and chooses to treat them as at least the party spokesperson. - I do this to keep all the players involved, even if the character they are playing is not taking the group leader role.
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I don't let NPC's decide for the party. I will have NPC's relate information the players might have forgotten, tell about "the last time we rushed a door, Davis took a ballista bolt to the chest.", or remind the party what they had declared was their purpose for being where they are. And the NPC can be WRONG! Sometimes I make the NPC wrong on purpose, sometimes it is my faulty memory. Sometimes (and NOT most of the time) the NPC advice is sub-optimal. "If we have the mage cast a fireball into the library, the enemies inside will be too worried about their books burning to set up an ambush!" (Yeah, or they might all run out at the party immediately, instead of being taken by surprise - plus the party is here to recover a book about the long lost blue honey bees of Aggrimist)
“Analysis paralysis” happens all the time and usually ends with the group just going with the first choice they initially dismissed... 50 minute talk to just “pick the lock” like they initially said they would lol. Good tips I could see the hourglass working for my players as they welcome combat but a timer leaves it vague as to what the consequence is.
The opening skit actually brings up an interesting discussion topic. In the skit, the wizard says, “I already cast fireball” and the dungeon master says that he didn’t because he needs time to adjudicate. In a game you can have players immediately shout out their actions and then complain about railroading of the DM says, “No, wait just a second, that didn’t happen.”
How should the game be structured so that players can have the liberty to role play their character in the way they want to while giving the DM the space he needs to make rulings?
I love when players shout out things they do above the protestations of the group. I take them as happening in game and we see where I goes
Also, love the intro XD
Oh my god... Luke is a Crazy Cat Guy.
They infect you like myconids
I once had a group with 3 players... Two of them would over-discuss everything, but the 3rd player, a minotaur barbarian, would always save the session with 2 simple words: "I charge!". It was never the wrong choice. Granted, neither were the things the other players discussed, but they went on too long.
For the situation in the intro, my instinct for "everyone in the party simultaneously tries to do a different thing" is "Isn't that what turn order is for? Roll up a quick initiative & have them each perform their chosen action in turn." If this happens a lot, to avoid favoring the high Dex players I might make party-only initiatives just be a flat 1d20 roll with roll-off for ties.
When it comes to a door decision or something simple that they can't decide or are arguing over, I force an initiative. Then I describe it like, "as the argument continues, Tannir the rogue says, "guys". As you all look tannir is standing in the now open doorway.
This method makes sure to move things along while keeping with the narrative and not taking away pc agency.
Isn't this Chandlar's something or other: "When in doubt, have a man come through the door with a gun in his hand"
As a player I tend to just make an idea that's a compromise of the choices the party makes if that's possible. For example, the wizard wants to cast the comprehend languages ritual because there is a draconic word on the wall and some of the other members of the party want to move on so I just suggest writing the word down and casting the ritual at the end of the next short rest.
Charcoal and Parchment is your friend in these situations.
@@Battleguild they had a quill & some parchment so it worked out alright.
In my.... second (?) D&D-Session my players decided to take almost half an hour to decide, how far away from their camp they wanted to bring the bodies of the bandits they just killed...
I just tell them to roll initiative... Then I ask the first person what they do on their turn. Then I ask the next person what they want to do. And if they want to stop the first person they have to make a roll. And I go like that down the line giving everyone the chance to interrupt any person before then. They usually end up using high level spells on one another. So dumb. It's amazing.
Use egg timer. Let's you adjust time limit as you please.
My character has a special coin with the crests of the 2 primary draconic patron saints: Bahamut as heads and Tiamat as tails. If needed, I'll have to flip it for the sake of decision-making process.
The group I DM doesn’t have this issue. But this video is still interesting. The party has a ‘Leroy jenkins’ type btw. I already bought sandtimers however and if this issue creeps up I’ll use a timer.
I like your Tyr necklace.
My group is not apathetic but they have this strange habit of not asking questions wether it's to NPCs or to me the DM. Also they're never surprising. They always do the most predictable thing. If its a combat, you're damn well sure they're gonna kill the baddies and never anything else like capturing and interrogating one of them or trying to sneak their way around the combat. It's like I was railroading them but they do it by themselves when all I want is them disrupting my plans (and I've told them multiple times but they never change).
They're boring but I don't have any other friends who wants to play TTRPG so I'm stuck with these guys. Any tips Luke ?
I roll random dice and make different faces which the players (my children) figure something terrible is about to happen. This usually gets a decision rolling. I only had to actually do something once, the first time.
@2:47 Because it disrupts the flow of the game, which disrupts the players' immersion. Make sure you sweep up that straw you tracked in on your way out.
Been using one min sand timer in combat and with indecisiveness for over a year. The sand has yet to expire.
Pop it in front of the camera and stuff happens magicly.
Luke, your shirt is awesome. Where did you get it?
8:00 How about a contested perswation check? And instead of adding the results, treat it like rolling w/ advantage.
Characters' social skills shouldn't be used on other players... unless you'd want the half-orc death knight to "wins" every "argument" because he as a +12 on intimidation rolls ^^
If you got four ideas from your four players or more, have them text it to you on the phone or gaming system be it a steam system to make it easier or roll20 or just at your table, have them roll for turn order and describe the events in order.
Quite a simple start.
I would make it a contested will check. Let's say you have 2 players vs 3 on the decision. They each let the player with the highest Willpower roll with advantage given to the one with more players on their side.
I would also insert the caveat that I wouldn't limit players' discussion time if they are discussing mechanics. They need to be able to take their time in understanding how a certain thing should work.
Number 2 is hit or miss for me. While I prefer to keep the clock moving, I don't mind pausing it sometimes for important decisions (especially if those decisions are heavily contingent on mechanics and/or DM rulings).
For example: The players are outside of a room with some monsters in it. They are just peeking in and the monsters have not noticed them yet. They get an idea and choose to cast some spell or use some item(s) to get the advantage. If I realize that these wouldn't work, I will let them know and give them time to rethink it (Maybe the room is too small to fireball safely/it won't fit your instant fortress! Maybe they misunderstood what a spell can do, etc.).
I do this since, in some cases (the small room, for example), I may have simply misrepresented the situation. In the case of spells, many spells that can cheese things (*cough cough* "Illusions!"), the usefulness is entirely DM dependent. I don't want to screw the players over and be like "Well, the trolls heard you talking about whether fireball was a radius or diameter (again!)..."
In cases where the big bad guy is there staring them down and they decide to have a 30+ minute conversation while they make strategies that their characters could never have prepared in advance though? Yeah... After 5+ minutes tops, it is decision time guys; he is not going to stand there patiently.