Can paying for pregnancies save Greece? | Europe’s Baby Bust
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- Опубликовано: 16 июн 2024
- Greece’s population is falling fast, with low birth rates and economic instability hitting its island communities hardest.
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An unconventional new organisation, Hope Genesis, is attempting to inject life back into these remote areas and encourage people to get pregnant through a programme of financially incentivised births. Leah Green and Ekaterina Ochagavia travel to Greece to see them in action, and to examine the ethical and environmental issues behind paying women to have babies
∙This series was filmed in 2020 adhering to local coronavirus restrictions
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#BabyBust #Greece #PayingForPregnancy #BabyBoom #Population
Encouraging Greeks to have kids is pointless if they know their kids will have to move abroad to find work after uni. Greece should focus on reforming itself first.
true
I half agree. Greece should - in parallel - do both having more kids and making it possible for people to have a prosperous future.
@@JonLondrezos right on!
That is true for Romania also.
@@JonLondrezos Actually, kids grow faster that the grownups get to do any reform. So the change should start BEFORE encouraging births.
I feel bad for Christos to be living without friends his age.
me too
I wish he could have more friends.
Having old people as friends isn't that bad. I'm pretty sure he's glued to a console anyways most of the time.
@@Nierez yes, and in 20 years time, he won't have a girlfriend or wife, he will marry his console
@@wamnicho To be fair, companion bots will be pretty dang advanced by then.
Two thousand euros is nothing to raise a kid, especially in a country without job opportunities.
Exactly my thought!
The whole cost of the procedure, the doctors looking over the woman and giving birth could cost as much as 10 thousand... 2000 are like pouring a glass of water in the ocean...
@@tywinlannister5857 in Greece they have socialised healthcare so you don't pay for the birth itself (unless you go to a private practice) but still, 2k is what you spend on nappies, accessories, furniture, formula... Just in the first 3 months of the kids life
@@beasttitanofficial3768 true, but not many women choose the socialised healthcare as it has a bad rep, and unfortunatelly, the doctors in public practice require an "extra tipping" to take care of you. Trust me, the cost is greater than 2k
@@tywinlannister5857 i agree.
i feel so bad for Christos. Being the only kid on an island sounds like a nightmare of sorts...idk
He'll probably leave when he's ready.
Reminds me of children of men smh
@@invisiblemann1756 so interesting that in those stories it's always about people not having a choice, but really the birth rate always drops because people make conscious decisions.
@@bums009 is it really a choice tho? If you're not having kid due to financial and stability issues then I don't think you're choosing lol
The illusion of freewill is an interesting concept
@@invisiblemann1756 lol ‘ the illusion of free will ‘ the perfect victimization mindset..
You know what would give couples a reason to have babies? Financial security, something governments rarely have for their people because they are too busy catering to corporate interests.
Tell that to all the dirt poor African and Asian countries who have the complete opposite of financial security and stability, and yet have the highest birth rates.
They need to have more children in order to support the household and there's a higher risk of children dying in their childhood.
@@danielwebb4713 they use their children as labourers and future carers when the parents get old.
@Tyler Rae Donell Trobaugh what’s incorrect? Are you saying zimbabwe has a high standard of life?
@@danielwebb4713 and their lives are terrible
Hope Genesis: *Adds more kids*
Kids: When I grow up, I want to leave Greece.
Hope Genesis: *surprised pikachu face*
it's what happens when you solve the symptoms rather than the disease
Sometimes you don't know how to solve or cannot solve the cause of the disease. Treating symptoms is better than doing nothing.
What grease needs to do is add a law not to leave their hometown until they reach maximum capacity of people.
The country is called Greece..and you are probably joking.
When people see a future with nothing but debt. They stop having kids.
Exactly!
Dept, zero advancement, doom and gloom of "climate issues", critical race theory. The future looks dark and hopeless for everyone.
This so much.
@@Emppu_T. Nope. The future isn't all gloom. Fertility rates are failing also because children have always been a burden for people. Therefore city dwellers prefer to have less children to ensure their survival.
It doesn't stop Latinos.
Meanwhile in my country, kids are being born every minute despite parents being so poor and living in worse conditions. This life has no formula.
TRUTH
Where?
@@fresh5959 India, Pakistan, Bangladesh
@@shark4sk No I was asking HIM personally where he is from ,
@@shark4sk Bangladesh's TFR is 1.9, below the replacement rate of 2.1,, educate urself before saying something. Even India's TFR is below 2.1. Bangladesh's population will start to shrink by 2038 while India's wil start to shrink by 2048.
Nobody's talking about the actual babycare. We always got help by extended family and nannies aren't really an option for working class people.
That's what kindergartens are for
Babycare on Greek island usually is the business of what is called σόι in Greek and means the enlarged family. Usually the babies' grandparents, uncles, aunts, godparents and sometimes neighbors will help with babycare.
A real problem on the islands is that the cost of living is pretty high, but usually people have work only between April and November.
@@ivanperkovic2614 6 months old love Kindergarten
@@covenawhite4855 😂😂
Nobody considers the emotional toll
Here I am living in Canada (Toronto) Age of 25. Working 6 days a week, still not being able to afford a place for myself, Why would I even think about having kids when I still cant support myself?
i'm from toronto too! the rent prices here are crazy expensive, i might leave the city to leave more comfortably. i can't imagine how young people move to this city with children.
Poorer people can't support themselves yet have more children.
@@d4nkx549 and then? How are you going to raise that child without money? College fees are high asf. And shrinking into debt from 18 isn't the best feeling.
@@GrandDuchessT How tf do poor people raise 5+ kids? You don't worry about college fees when you want to have kids. Besides not everyone needs to go to college and if they want to they can take student loans.
Toronto is crazy expensive
Children are very expensive, and has almost become a luxury "item" in the western society!
Don't worry, immigrants will come to the west to marry local women and increase the population.
@@gabbar51ngh women have become too demanding, if they are rejecting much of their domestic counterparts, foreigners don't hold a chance.
@@ricardopontes7177 not really most in my uni are girls..
@@ricardopontes7177 because of your own western policies of women rights
@@husnyrisal7573 so you think women they don't need to have rights?
Once they have children ,the funds will stop , don't be fooled by such organisations
then the real struggle begins
You think they don't know that?
They just want future slaves to consumerism.
@@V.E.R.O. well, rather not have children, not pass on the genes of your ancestors?
We who live today are the continuing of thousands of our ancestors. To just cut it off and leave nothing of truly your own on this earth? Disappear like a dust.
Capitalism sucks, I know. Do it for your ancestors, for yourself, for your nation and for your family. In the past people lived poorer yet they still had many children, were they dumb? I don't think so. They were not so materialist.
@@danbaltic9678 I'm not childless because of materialism, I'm actually a minimalist. I don't have children for other personal reasons. In the past a lot of people had children because they usually lived in the countryside in farms so they needed children to help in the farm and they have enough food to feed their children. Nowadays a lot of people are packed in the cities in small rooms and houses trying to reach the "American" dream which is just that a dream and sadly many get in debt chasing it.
1 vs 1 with your teacher is my worst nightmare! Goodluck
hahaha
I'm sure their relationship is more like a personal tutor rather than a teacher.
@@Rabolisk shut up 😂 lol
my teacher who taught me languages 1 v 1 passed away due to Covid. his son told me prior to the funeral he liked me more than him. he was like family for us, who dedicated his life to teaching. i'm very grateful for the experience and will keep him in my memory.
@@delmanpronto9374 laoshoa ?
Make the conditions worthwhile for people to want to bring a child into this world. A place that has no doctor is not a place people want to have their kids live. Fix that and the economic issues then the population will rise on it's own. There will be no need for baby-making organizations.
I know this might sound too far-fetched. Handmaid's tale.
A doctor on island pays only of if you have at least 1000 people so you would rather have to share many island on the Germany Coast don't have doctors too.
So you want to place a doctor on each island. This wouldn't work because even athen is having a shortage.
That's not true in Germany we have alot of doctors and a good infrastructure but the population still declines
In the case of Greece, there are other reasons as well. You can see the phenomenon all over the country and in the cities as well. Most young people/couples are either working all the time or are unemployed. In both cases, not the right conditions for having children.
It’s all about survival these days.. rising costs of living coupled with an ambitious zeal to succeed makes it practically impossible to raise kids responsibly.
And what's the point of chasing this success....not saying you shouldn't chase success...but ...
I dont see any amibitios zeal around me. I see ppl not being able to afford housing and living with their parents. I see depressed ppl living in constant fear of being laid off. I see abused and abadoned moms. And recently I see parents losing jobs due to schools closing. So yea thanks for 2000 euros Greece nice try...
@@hirondelle8734 congrats,thats my dream too, what do you live off of?
@@hirondelle8734 May I ask what kind of job did you do?
Those desolate Greek islands look like absolute Paradise...it’s tragic that there are little opportunities there for the Greek people.
It looks like Paradise BECAUSE there are fewer people.
I think that in many of these places that are tourist, people rely on the summer for their living. Of course winters are hard because it's cold and windy, but there should be a winter economy too.
@@makisxatzimixas2372 no. Greece, Albania, Span, Italy have wet and mild winters ,while hot but dry summers. In winter, a light sweater or jacket is fine, and is summer, the brick homes will keep you cool. By the way, this is the village, islands and villages dont get extreme summer temperatures often.
@@sm3675 Have you ever been on a Greek Island? Many times during the summer you need a jacket, because a T-shirt is not enough.
I know right, I want to move there!
They should market the islands for older people who want to retire to a nice place or have a 2nd home to relax.
Sounds like people are choosing not to have children because they can't afford to give them a quality childhood.
No people are materialistic.
Yep exactly people don't have the money to have kids and no one in their right mind wants to bring up kids poor.
@@d4nkx549 You got any kids?
Christos wants to become a teacher. thanks to his gracious guru
And leave the island...
Who would he teach? By the time he gets to adulthood they'd be noone (except for the elderly) left in Greece as a whole let alone the island
Hopefully he wont become an alcoholic
@@Biobele Huge exaggeration
As a Greek living abroad, i can say the previous governments, destroyed Greece, what is left is the breadcrumbs, no one can do anything with.
Geographically speaking, Greece is an absolute utopia, but economically speaking, an absolute dystopia.
Which greek town/island is 0:05 ? It looks beautiful, I would love to visit.
@@003mohamud Lol its Budapest, capital of Hungary. She stands on the Liberty bridge.
Southern Europe in a nutshell
@@gregorkerka1235 dang it looks amazing
Build the best internet and create a Digital Nomad Visa Residence. We DN’s will flock there in droves ☺️🙌
Greeks alive: "Help we got no jobs"
Greek politicians: "Why dont you make more future jobless kids??" *send 100k euros from taxpayer money to their own children studying and living abroad*
Poor people have more kids
@@d4nkx549 ...but not the poor people that once were rich.
@@birdakasiakwvos In every country, the wealthier people are, the less kids they have.
@@d4nkx549 yes, that is correct also, but i said before that despite the poor countries have more population growth(e.x India, the countries that were rich and after not are not having babies(Greece). Now, purcasing power of the average Greek living in Athens is almost the same as the average Indian living in Mumbai.
@@birdakasiakwvos and population of Mumbai Metropolitan is almost twice that of whole Greece...lol...
And that's what Greeks should know, why not just invest more in primary sectors and make Greek communities self sustainable considering they have advantage of small population. Social Economics 101.
Why would anyone want to have kids if we can't even afford to look after ourselves.
People from different backgrounds have different concepts of what it means being able to afford looking after themselves. And then there's the difference of what makes a good life.
On point.
Also:
1. Women unlikely to marry and have kids due to a prevalence of psychological and physical violence in the family unit.
2. Single women who want babies cannot afford the treatment associated with sperm donors and IVF.
3. Greece's economic instability implies more youngsters are moving to other thriving countries.
4. Religious people missing the point of all the above issues and blaming it on people not following religion and hence Greece turning in circles trying to find solutions #defundreligiouspeople .
Religiousness has never made society better. Good people in general did.
@@crazy4beatles k
@@rewiredhuman3347 I agree with everything you've said, but that last sentence was truly spot on.
because the economy is like a ponzi scheme. you need a constant flow of young people to bear the burden of the old buzzards.
I'm so intrigued that they want to increase the birthrate. Ironic because when poor people have children they are criticized esp when it's a single mother with multiple children.
It is all a out finding the right balance.
Single motherhood shouldn’t be encouraged.
@@boborigue I wanna like this comment but it's at 69 likes so I'll just leave it as it is.
@@minagray8574 Motherhood is not appreciated, its unpaid labor.
Exactly!
As a millenial, all these bandaids to problems infuriate me. Stop blaming people for not wanting to have babies because thats a lie. Many of us want to have kids we just dont feel our future is secured enough for it.
The decision for someone to not have babies is more often than not, purely a survival mechanism in response to the environment where people cant make a worthy livelihood.
A one off 2000 euro "bandaid" to the problem wont help.
People also fail to mention how hard it is for many to form serious relationships
Yep this right here. Why would people have kids when they can barely feed themselves
Oh and the relationship issue is really coming to a head. If I lost the woman I have now I'd just stay alone
Maybe if tthey make it 2000 per child per year, and a free house then I think Europe will boom again
@@konnor9577 yeah and who is gonna fund it?
Growing up as the only child on an island feels pretty lonely. Poor boy.
He actually has 2 baby brothers. They were on Greek news as well!
Greeks islands are so beautiful if we had a bigger population Greece would be an absolutely paradise
If two people have to work at the same time to provide for a child, of course birth rates are going to drop.
This isn't even the case.
That's not true.
@@paxundpeace9970 in what way? There’s less incentive to have children that way
@@RVforestgreen It only drops when something changes. Hope you get it now. 0
@@paxundpeace9970 but it DID drop? Or are you insinuating that the birth rate in Greece hasn’t dropped as the economy got worse?
Exactly
Baby bonuses don't really help. Not talking about the support in Greece as that looks like a good program. Australia had one in the early 2000s and it didn't help those who didn't want kids because of work or already were happy with one or two. It encouraged mostly lower socio economic people to cash in for an upfront $6,000 and have lot of kids they couldn't really afford or provide for so it became disastrous and was scrapped.
Same thing happens in the USA. (just without the fancy program)
@@commentor3485 that’s an urban myth. “Social welfare queens” and foster parents that home a lot of kids to make profit off the system are rarer than what you’d think if you base your views of movies or police shows. Like airplane crashes, they aren’t that common but they sure make you feel like driving is safer (it’s not).
@@yucol5661 Yup. It's just a scapegoat for rich Republicans to blame so that they can cut funding for everyday people, while filling their pockets
such a joke in the usa here my husband and I both make decent income. We make way too much to get the government health care so we get private employeer one ( gold plan btw) it will cost us 8k to give birth this year. That is just giving birth in usa LOL. Child care is 2k a month where we live. luckily we can afford a house with a room but if you compare 2 bed room vs 1 bed room even appt the price in rent etc goes up drastically.
Yeah. It’s ultimately a lifelong lifestyle change. People (especially politicians) don’t seem to understand that kids last a lifetime. It’s not just a one time expense.
Can’t have a hard life due to hardship if you are never born
There are millions of people throughout time that had harder lives and childhood compared to today and they overcame their unfortunate circumstances to attain prosperity. Is today any different?
@@candiced2138 Millions overcame, what about the millions who didnt?
antinatalism
@@candiced2138 they didn't know better, no knowledge of family planning, and most children died young. I don't think that's something people today, who are more educated, more knowledgeable about how the world work should copy. We shouldn't just wing it and see what would happen.
@@kurokamei I think people should be mentally, emotionally and financially prepared to have children but the reality is that a lot of people don't think like that and will continue to have children regardless of if they should or shouldn't. Ironically, it's mostly people who are living in poverty and don't have the means to take care of multiple children.
No. Raising the child requires sustainable economic capacity, which one off give away won't be enough
We are in a world climate crisis and one of the major factors is overpopulation. We should not be incentivising people to have more children. All countries should be working toward reducing their populations and impact on the planet.
Poor Christos,I'm sure he is very lonely,but I bet he is very helpful to his neighbors since there's not a lot to do.
This comment is so true, but then it made me laugh because I envisioned the entire town putting this one boy to WORK and this is why he wants to move off of the island 😂 ....seriously though, he rang the bell and he is the only student there 😐
"takes a village to grow a child" however
@@Emppu_T. Yeah! With children too!
How do they expect people to raise kids in such poor living conditions, it's purely fallacy, their own government is the problem, they have plunged their citizens into poverty
I still think it's wrong for people to just decide not to have kids because of the economy situation, not when there are other options to make money other than sitting around and waiting for the government
@@mirasmith8637 easy for you to say, you have no idea what unemployment has caused for people
Despite the rate of unemployment, some people still counts their millions of Dollars daily and weekly.
Seriously? What kind of business would that be? Sounds interesting
Forex trading and bitcoin mining, this has to be the future, this is the only way you can print your own money.
I've watched all the segments held on this topic..Where are the men? Why are they not asking how can the governments help the men have careers to PROVIDE for a family?? Why is all the focus on the women? This practice will not work..if a woman does not feel safe, supported, and loved why would she want to have a baby?? They r leaving out the fact she will feel the burden of children alone.
underrated comment right here!
As a Greek woman, I’d like to add that the best thing the government can do is support working mothers. My generation has seen a rise in women entering the workforce and many have to choose between having children and having a career. Maternity leave, as well as continuous support in childcare through improved public schooling (including preschool) can dramatically change the situation.
MGTOW
@@elenaKS230 the Scandinavian countries have that - they even have paternal leave.
The result?
Their native population birthrate is only slightly higher than Greece' (Fertility rate of 1.35) despite providing everything you suggested.
Sweden's fertility rate is officially 1.76 but when you look at the actual native Swedish population it's just 1.67.
Norway is even worse at 1.56
Finland is barely making it at 1.41
All those countries are extremely generous with maternity costs and providing everything necessary to make women as comfortable as possible with regards to birth.
They're all below the replacement level required at 2.1 and are facing a demographic implosion.
You will notice that in every country where they are complaining about falling birthrates, they never ask about the men or even include the concerns of men.
This is because, if they do, they will get answers they do not want to hear.
I'll chip in a bit seeing as I'm Greek immigrant abroad.
I've immigrated to the UK a couple of years ago when I was 16 with my parents. Currently studying at university. We immigrated here because the economy in Greece is still pretty much a joke. People like to think that the Greek economic crisis has passed but that's completely false, we will be living with the after effects for decades to come.
It's already a struggle for me to find a reasonable job in Athens where I'm not being exploited (thanks to labour laws being dismantled by the Troika in the early 2010s). How on earth would I be able to have a reasonable job and income in one of those remote Greek islands where the economy is quite weak? Let alone the fact that my income won't be enough to raise children.
I grew up in a household in Greece during the worst parts of the Greek economic crisis. I was lending my pocket money to my parents for them to pay the bills. I do not want to raise children and have them go through the same experience as I did. If I decide to have children, I want them to have a good childhood, not a butchered one like I had.
Oh, and I would like my children to grow up in a place where they can socialise and mingle with other children their age and not become an extreme introvert like I am. That's kind of impossible to do in a remote Greek island with a tiny population.
Maybe I'll move to one of those remote Greek islands once I retire and/or I make it big in cryptocurrencies. But that's a long way from here, and I fear the population situation will have reached the point of no return by then.
If anyone is interested in this, feel free to reply to this comment and I'll get back to you
That's partly true greece before the crisis was like italy or at least spain but even crippled greece still far more better most countries around the world and still crippled greece is richer than its neighbors so problem is not just economy the problem is mostly mentality most young greeks are very picky to choose jobs ,you could be born anywhere else in the world like india africa china etc so you should be pray to born in greece because when you compare to rest of world still greece is avesome country to live on!
Even with the Greek crisis lingering on you probably live much better than your grandparents who nonetheless had many more children per capita. That goes for non Greeks as well....
@LetsGoSpain !!! Am I right in assuming you'd say the same exact thing to all the other 700,000 Greeks that immigrated abroad during the crisis?
@LetsGoSpain !!! Έλληνας δεν γεννιέσαι, γίνεσαι.
Έχεις απόλυτο δίκιο
People don't want kids. People don't want marriage. Fewer want any relationships.
It’s fantastic how they all speak English in Greece.
Need of jobs:) now the younger also have to learn german
Actually either german or French
@@evaggelia8815 This is a fact. There are a sh*ton of Greek restaurants in the Germany. They are like the Mexican restaurants of America. I've lived in Germany but I'm American.
@@Dan-vz7xu true i got many manyy family friends and relatives going to germany for jobes
Ignorance at its finest. We are educated and we love learning. That's why we learn foreign languages. We are blessed to have a beautiful country, which is rich in natural gas and other resources and minerals. Unfortunately, the state has been managed poorly and people have to leave their beautiful country for a better life.
Since you said you are a native speaker you should have known better, we do not put articles in front of names, countries etc, "the Germany".
I forgive your ignorant and racist remarks along with your grammatical errors, as you said, at the end of the day you remain American.
Southern and Eastern European countries: *no job security, opportunities, or equal access to education, and stressful work culture*
Also southern and Eastern European countries: “how dare you not supply the workforce with no children! We gave you 2000 euros 😡”
Seriously 😂
Christos got caught for cheating off his schoolmate, when he turned in a blank paper.
LOL! But hey, what is the teacher gonna do? Out of school suspension?! :P
This is also a problem in Spain, Portugal and Italy. Its just that life living alone in these countries is hard already let alone with children.
every one lives at home untill there 30ies.
Add Romania and Bulgaria to that list, too.
Why do you say living in Spain, Portugal and Italy is hard? ..I'm genuinely just asking...
@@gabriellewilliams396 unemployement and high cost of living compared to the salaries
@@zacarias8434 hmmm...seems thats the prob in so many countries...even in the Caribbean
We are experiencing same thing in USA. Millennials are too poor to have children or get married. Birthdate has been constantly going down since 90s
no you arent, america doesnt have 1 ethnicity or a culture, and it has no religion, so you will always have millions of mexicans indias chinese people coming in the usa and bringing the population up
@@idek8718 He never said that the population is not growing. he said that the child birth has been going down. and this is simply true,
@@RK-cj4oc not the same problem tho, you will be replaces anyways, greeks cant be replaced...
The US doesn't need more people I don't care what ethnicity or religion the person is.
@@Dan-vz7xu yeah but there is nothing you can do about it, the ruling class wants more and more poor immigrants in the us, so that more and more people will become poor, while the ruling class will jst become richer and richer, and liberal kids are supporting that stuff so, its doomed to happen
The cost of living is getting higher and higher and wages aren’t matching that. If you go to college in an attempt to get a better job you end up with crippling debt (at least in the US) and a lot of people can’t find jobs in those fields. And if they do the starting pay is pitiful. You spend half your check on rent and the rest on other bills. So if you have a baby you have to work extra hours just to pay for the extremely expensive day care. You’re having a baby that you can’t even properly enjoy because you have to work so much so that other people can raise it because you have to work so much.
Very well said.
Thankfully in Greek universities we don't pay tuition fees and books, some students can get free food at the caffeteria (at least it's eatable)
But getting into uni is very hard, public school just doesn't focus on the uni exams, so we all went to preparatory schools (which are expensive asf, it was our family's sacrifice, in my case it was successful since I got in my desired department, but other students may not make it to their dream schools).
that is why people should refuse to have babies and produce news slaves for the system to exploit
It’s a disastrous catch 22
The cost of living has also increased because a lot of people don't spend their money rationally. Far to many people are far to willing to pay far to much for housing.
Very saddening a lot of people are narcisist and hence insist on owning a home or having a car or something third.
Far more people should be using public transport and living for rent.
I'm from guanajuato Mexico same phenomenon is happening it was 50 + on each class room now they are only 15
Guanajuato fertility rate hasn't dropped below 2.1 yet so it's not in issue yet. The population mexico is also much younger there than in greece.
@@maatimoobi8133 I know they're young in general but for some reason this information is not showing up in census. Kindergarten and elementary school is much less kids in comparison with past 2 decades. Obviously Mexico's population is bigger than any European country. So is not going to affect dramatically.
Because your all fleeing to america
@@historygeek7779 That has little to do with it. Immigration has dropped over the years. Lots of countries are dropping in fertility rates and its more common in developed or developing countries.
@@historygeek7779 nop actually is much less of that from Mexico
What's the unemployment rate in Greece again? They've been penniless for a decade and you can't figure out why the population is aging!
Greece is so beautiful, I wish I could live there
How lonely is the only child on an island.
very lonely at school
Needs a Nintendo
This is what austerity does. It solves nothing. Everyone leaves and no one is left to pay and you still don't get your money!
Preach!
No this is what happens when you spend money you don't have and leave the bill to the future generations. The time has come for Greeks to pay the bills their parents and grandparents incurred.
@@thechosenone1533 Your opinion is insulting af. Even IMF says austerity was catastrophic. Go back to your hole now.
@@thechosenone1533 One can say the responsibility also lies with the loan sharks who made predatory loans in the first place. Ultimately, the choice of solution lies with those who make the rules for the society, for the lenders, the financial system and all involved. Ancient societies had a debt jubilee. Rather than austerity, every society also has a choice of allowing bankruptcy or wiping out all debt. Too bad for the lenders. Perhaps they can be relieved that they are not sued as well for undue stress or even tried and convicted for irresponsible lending.
@@gmac8586 The economy will collapse even worse than it did if you had a debt jubilee. And a lot of the money is owed to foreign countries and they would impose sanctions if you don't pay back the loans. Ask North Korea and Iran how it feels to live under sanctions. They would take austerity any day if they had a choice.
Everywhere where people are financially struggling, it is a general practice to refuse to have a baby. It's impossible to live with a miserable wage and grow old a family. My mom already had me at my age now, but I am totally afraid of having a kid as I am unable to give him a home.
Poorer countries have far more children than richer countries. Your theory doesn’t really hold up.
@@cawheeler27 actually it does, as being part of one of these poorer countries. My comment is actually about young educated couples/ families who can clearly understand their own limitations. Sorry for my inconsistency.
@@emmads you should have narrowed down your scope of statement then. It's not "everywhere"
@@emmads that's not true ,poorer people have much more kids,around the world that's a fact
@@SRBOMBONICA86 it really depends, I write down thing I observe next to me.
Well, I line near Arkoi and I can tell you that despite having no healthcare system ( in critical conditions a helicopter transfers you to central hospital) people still have kids. However, now with coronavirus, I fear many people in the tourism industry and food services face unknown times, having kids will be even more difficult. Also, in order to have regular check ups, pregnant women have to leave small islands. You need a lot of money, not only raising kids but being pregnant as well...
Love how the kid doesn’t even sit in the front of the class
🤣
Probably they did it only for the interview. To show that they comply with the covid guidelines
They should try to encourage the diaspora to return! But that will involve there needing to be jobs
I return to Serbia because of low taxes :-) But... as a self-made Multimillionaire.
7:30 there's a difference between keeping population stable and increasing it...
No developed country has been able to artificially increase population anyway.
@@pawl23 You mean besides immigration?
@@pawl23 actually Israel has the highest tfr ( over 3.0) among industrialised nations but there other factors play role also
@@kol3577 that is true too
giving birth in Greece in private hospitals costs 5k, in public hospitals you will pay around 1k (for the hospital expenses, if the doctor asks for extra money(not legal) this price goes up).
Per month parents get around 28 euros for every child. Even the diapers you are going to use per month cost more than that. And when the kid starts going to school, you will pay extra money for foreign language lessons (they do get taught in school but no one has ever learned from school any foreign language), extra money if your kid wants to go to the uni (the lessons in school are not enough for 95% of the kids to pass the exams for the uni). And then in uni, most parents don't want the kids to work to focus on their studies
I am european and have two teens. We migrated to Germany when they were aged 6 and 9. It was very very hard. We stayed there 5 years and returned because of family issues, financially it was great though. I tell me children to consider not having children of their own because it is becoming very difficult to raise children, even if you make a lot of money. Money is only one of the variables, others weight a lot more in this equation.
wise
Europeans will perish because they have no children. But the refugees will have lots of babies for you, don't worry.
And to think that my generation was heavily pressured to avoid pregnancy at all costs until after you graduated from college, had a good job, and a house. When I was the right age to have a family, the economic crisis of 2008 struck, I could not afford a family, so I don’t have any children. It’s a shame, I am a good person, I care about people. I would have been a good mother.
Me too
then adopt
@@user-qp7gc6qv8k then adopt
@@TheTroyc1982 i d like to have my own
Maybe you should not give up yet talk to doctor maybe they can help you my aunt had her first daughter in her 40s
Thank you for giving both of these arguments equal time.
True. Interesting enough, there is a discrepancy, though. On the one hand, there is an argument, saying that all life should matter around the globe. The other argument is, we need to keep the 2500 year old legacy alive. So this is two conversations of people living in distinct realities. One has a frame of a TV set, the other has imagination. The two arguments are similar, in that, they are both on the extremes. And they are similar arguments, as they are rhetorical. And it seems that these are argument of the same issue but they are not. One is about nostalgic feelings and Friedman economics; the other is not.
Interestingly enough, the topic of women being massively assaulted and killed by male partners (the main reason why women neither want to get into relationships and have children in such unsafe atmosphere) has not been properly covered.
Both pro-natalist and anti-natalist?
@@rewiredhuman3347 Hogwash
@@bramak6784 so you support that is better for historical European countries like Greece to adopt 200.000 Pakistani children to solve their problems and create the new modern Greeks? Are you for real?
Even in the North East of England here they have closed down dozens of primary schools because they simply aren't needed. Schools which had over 500 children in the 1990s now have less than 200.
In Albania the same the villages are abandoned and population now inside is not more than 2 millions.
Life is too expensive.
Greece has a serious demographic problem though. The steep populaion decrease is a nightmare for sustaining the pension funds. At this point, the Hope Genesis initiative seems not to be about increasing Greece's population compared to todays population. It's basically about making the decrease less steep...
The population decrease really seems not to be avoidable. We are very far from being in a situation, where demonstrating against overpopulation in Greece would make a lot of sense.
Greece also has a serious issue of women being assaulted and killed by male partners, which explains the reticence of women to put themselves at risk in relationships and to deliver an innocent soul in such a fcked up psychopathic enviroment.
Don't worry, elites are already working for governments not giving public pensions in the future.
@@rewiredhuman3347 Do you mean to say it doesn't happen to men as well? Let's see these statistics, please
@@freezeaim2412 Men are mostly killed by men: they are friends whom they drink with or have drugs with, crime partners or random strangers.
Women are mostly killed by men, by their male partners especially - the enemy being inside is a big issue - It shows you how men do not value women in general and how they position their lives and happiness as more important than that of the woman's.
Needless to say, feminicide has the highest statistics compared to homicide.
And the statistics are recorded by activists. Male powered government has ignored appeals to track feminicide rate. That is how you see how men see women as less valuable lives. This is well documented, please look it up.
@@rewiredhuman3347 That’s not how it works. If you are stating something, you are the one who is supposed to refer to sources. Do you write in your essays ”look it up”? If not, you cannot do it here either.
It's a problem that will be severe in the next 20 Years when most of the developed and developing countries will have a very low fertility rate.
It won't be problem at all as AI will take the jobs
@@tubby6007 but how will you get consumers
@@tubby6007 AI won't be the solution because robots don't buy unlike humans
@@alexmoore9580 But they take the jobs and money from people. Few make big money with many people. But this many people are running out of money.
Pay for pregnancy so their children can pay the debt?
Sounds like a great idea!
People of India to Greece - you guys are getting paid to get pregnant???
Indian birthrate is also declining. China is already doomed.
@@einmann3252 Nobody has to pay Indians or Chinese to have children. You are doomed.
Sister unki problem different hai hamse
Yeah... Again break down family structure.. Rather owt then have sustainable jobs and make gamy supporting policies... Children will come naturally from it
Quite frankly, why would you want to bring a child into this disastrous environment. Just doesn't seem fair
Its the most prosperous and peaceful time in human history what are you talking about. What was a better time to be born? 1400?
@@tornasukiii745 Personally I really like two o'clock. Great time. I had a lovely lunch, tidies up and got the ironing done. Won't see days like that again for years to come.
@@tornasukiii745 Where do you live? No answer needed, I can't verify. Just, look around what's going on all around the globe. Prosperous and peaceful are not the right words. But, I mean, you might live in a bubble, who am I to say.
I moved to the States under Clinton from the EU. I gave up and moved back to petty England under Trump. That was 2 years ago and I'm still trying to figure out what the hell happened to the world.
@@tornasukiii745 prosperous for the 1%. And it’s not peaceful just because there isn’t a world war
Hopefully this series comes to Portugal which is facing the same exact problems; looking forward for the next videos!
Christos was Spot on..he simply wants to leave the island..😂
No one wants to be bogged down with a kid in their 20s! We want a stable career and to have independent experiences before having a family. Children are a huge responsibility, just to be popping out babies for the heck of it is totally reckless.
thanks a lot to the guardians for this very well prepared report.
Poor kid!
Austerity in the western world and falling wages Vs more expensive cost of living has caused a ticking the bomb.
On point!
Ya couldn't pay me to have kids. Money is no incentive to bring life into a broken world.
A lot of things play a role in this but i think many ppl forget that now we have more equal rights and some women can choose to not have kids cuz they want to focus on their job or simply cuz they don't want kids. It's slowly becoming more socially acceptable for women to be child and husband free and honestly i think thats a great thing
That's cool and all but who's gonna pay for the business woman retirement?
@@user-xf6ty4iv9w i don't understand your point can u explain?
@@Elena-sf4ht when childless people grow old, where are they going to get their money from?
@@user-xf6ty4iv9w where everyone else gets their money from. Is your implication that kids give money to their parents when they are older ?
@@Elena-sf4ht if someone has no children she/he isn't entitled to the taxes of future generations right?
We all need to save Greece it’s a beautiful country full of culture and amazing places
so what do you suggest?
So maybe have more children?
@@paulo7507 Immigration
@@paulo7507 erdogan needs to take pressure off greece have more babies but at the woman's choice stop relations with germany seek help from another country and solve corruption
@@d4nkx549 yes but that's not the only problem corruption and turkey play a big part in it as well
Wow, different in Malaysia. Modern parents around my ages, they prefer small city to raising their child. Because everything around their radius, less criminal too. Most of my high school friends move back to our small town to started their own family. For example, in remote area deep jungle of borneo Sarawak, you can found primary school that occupied about 300 to 400 of students. We are not highly developed country like Europe but I think our cheap medical services the main factors here.
Yes, medical coverage is one of the main issues on the small islands. My cousin worked for some years on small islands as a teacher and she liked it there, but never would live there permanently, because there's no doctors.
@@helgaioannidis9365 my mom was head nurse that specializes in obstetrics and gynaecologist. She was in the busiest team ever. We live in small city that a bit secluded. Every month, her mobile clinic team will traveled to more rural areas for medical visits. The mobile clinic consists of boat clinic, bus clinic and 4 wheel car clinic. That's her experienced before retired.
@@wanh3703 yes we also have mobile teams that travel to islands here in Greece. But when the weather is bad the islands are isolated because the boats can't get there and flying is too dangerous. So with bad weather only when it's a question of survival they send a military helicopter to the islands to transport the person to hospital on a bigger island.
I live on an island that actually does have a hospital, but we never have all the doctors and nurses that are needed, because people from the mainland don't want to live here. We don't have intensive care for babies here and only recently through donations of locals we managed to build up an oncological department in our hospital. But we're often short of supplies here. The government doesn't see us as priority, because they don't need the islands to win elections. Most Greeks live on the mainland, so the government is only interested in us when it comes to get money out of tourism and when it comes to conflicts with Turkey.
What a charmer lol singing to the ladies lol 😂
I find this topic fascinating. I can understand both perspectives and it’s making me think a lot
Create better living conditions, acknowledge the importance of women’s role in society, increase male participation in child rearing and babies will follow. I barely make enough for myself, and it’s just so hard to move into a higher paying job. I see my girlfriends struggling to raise kids with little help from their husbands. No way on earth I want to have children.
LOL.
Darwin loves you.
Doing exactly that has lowered birth rates lol. Look at nordic countries. In the end, nature has deemed those ideas as wrong so lower birth rates is nature's way of ensuring ideas like that don't get passed on.
Really the man just needs to earn enough and the women will have children
Good video with both sides explained. Nice to see that the Guardian giving fair share of views
Definitely a tricky one, between climate change and the threat of cultural heritage being lost. Not to mention what long-term support the parents get.
But also - there's no mention of fathers or the birth mothers' partners in any of this unless I missed it..? Seems like a lot to place just on the backs of these women having the babies...
Overpopulation is a problem concerning certain countries (primarily in Asia and Africa). European countries like Greece should never be expected to take any birth control measures.
@@nickb1156 African populations are naturally the dominant majority on earth... everything been out of balance since your people tried to take over everything. The earth is simply balancing its composition again. Truth sometimes hurts...
@@ep4801 I'm sorry but there is no evidence to support your afrocentric delusions. Also, I don't remember Greece colonizing the world (WE were the ones being colonized and oppressed by empires). Better educate yourself.
@@nickb1156 Genetically speaking, African type genes and body features are more dominant than any European ones Wich everyone can see in cases of a child with b/w parents.
But other than that I with you. Most European nations didn't participate in the colonization efforts and even of those who did, the general population didn't planned or executed those things that came from the feathers of the political higher or leading forces.
@@fetter.strolch That's not what they were referring to when they said "the dominant majority". And even though some of their features are genetically dominant, the idea that biracial kids look more black than white is a delusion. Put Obama next to an African man's picture and you will clearly see his lips, skintone, nose etc are in between.
I don’t want children and not everyone does and the world needs to understand that.
Nobody's talking about you.
If OP is Greek then this vid is relevant to the comment.
Fair enough atually, neither do I. I think the main focus of the video is about people that want to have children but don't because of a variety of reasons, mainly insecurity and financial problems
I want but I can't. It would be nice if you'd shut up and keep being childless while letting someone to point out our problems.
When my mother first bought fish, they weren't too pleased moving from their big aquarium to her modest sized one.
Then they began to have kids and the older ones died off. The children knew no different, they had never experienced life outside my mum's aquarium so they had no expectations for a better world.
This did not mean they were happier. You see, they picked up their parents demeanor of resignation as just a normal way to approach life.
This is what they want for us and our children and the people would rather fall over and die than to bring children into this reality.
Sorry for the example mum.
What a beautiful country
@@rewiredhuman3347 That is not true. Where did you get this astoundingly false impression?
looks like a dump to me
@@fwefhwe4232 I understand you. Not everyone is ready to believe what is happening. Many like living in their sheltered safe privileged cocoon, I totally understand you.
@@rewiredhuman3347 what are you even talking about? Its Greece not Saudi arabia
@@rewiredhuman3347 stop being condescending when you're just plain wrong
No children, no future.
I hope that 2000 euros are paid monthly, if not, that’s the biggest scam in history lol
Can that woman (who was interviewed) seriously not understand the point of making children outside of consumer culture/capitalism?
Or that you can raise children that are environmentally aware and make good habits such as recycling and using products without plastic.
@@lizprice8783 It's not Us or children who had to Change it's the Government regulations and Corporate companies. As someone associated with manufacturing the degree of engineering going in to make new product unrepairable as use and throw, planned obsolescence eg creating artificial spare shortages etc. These all end up in land fills and the durable product being purchased 10-20 times in a person's life time insted of 3 or 4.
@@lizprice8783 No need, people are suffering everywhere. ADOPT. These women and men who are anti-natalists think selflessly unlike people who want to fulfill their whims of having their DNA passed down and getting a child in this world to witness sexism, racism and other forms of oppression. The AUDACITY.
@@lizprice8783 you reduce and reuse before you recycle. Anti-natalists just apply the principle to child rearing too.
@@egbertandrew8435 Right, that wasn't the point. My point is that people act like children are a burden when really it just falls on the parent to raise decent human beings. If you don't want to have children, mind your business.
There is beginning to be a baby bust in America as well. People are choosing wisely when it comes to having babies. Poverty is taking over and student loans are bleeding the younger generation dry
Greece is so beautiful. Stunning views , beautiful sky line. Beautiful
Women are NOT baby machines!
Wish Greece the best of luck with increasing the birth rate.
Or let nature take it's place... there's a reason the birth rate is low. Fix the ECONOMY THEN MAKE KIDS... common sense.
@@OnlyOneHunnids What does economy have to do with it? People are very rich in Africa or the Middle East? They have insane birthrates.
@@rudy1999 and look at Saudi UAE oman Qatar Bahrain Israel and possibly Iran turkey, their all rich. Africa is a different story. Idk. MAybe 🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂
@@OnlyOneHunnids these countries might be rich but their standard of living is not high. overpopulation is a combination of lack of education among women, lack of family planning and reducing mortality rates for children.
@The big liar so you're not rich. that person was saying that if we fix they economy, people will have children. but that's not the only reason people don't have children. in middle eastern countries, family is still valued (unlike Greece).
Well, It seems to me that it's rather a controversial issue. Back in 2011, when financial crisis hit our country, the Greek population accounted up to 11 million people. Ten years have passed and half a million people, mostly young, immigrated in order to get a proper standard of living.
Yes, there is a demographic problem, but it has expanded to the Europe. Now, the population has decreased gradually since then in order to reach 10,420.000 and continues to decline. The average age is 45, I presume. The whole Europe adopted neoliberal policies in the last three decades and now is paying the price. Maybe we should adopt a better economic model.
Yall have refugees on your border wanting to work, it seems like common sense to just integrate them into the economy rather than pay for their food and water in camps
@@addmin5487 Refugees do not want to stay in Greece, they want to go to Northern Europe that has better economy and living conditions, Greece just happens to be on their way there. Dublin agreement is there to protect Northern European countries from being overwhelmed that's why they stay in Greece. Intergrading thousands upon thousands of refugees is not an easy task. It requires an incredible amount of resources and time. Due to bad economy the job market is incredibly competitive, you can't just get a job here. So no, it's not common sense it's a very difficult subject, and we are really only at the beginning...
@@addmin5487 the majority won’t integrate in society, we’re too different both culturally and religiously.
@@addmin5487 many wont integrate and that would only make a bigger problem
@@addmin5487 there are no jobs for Greek people let alone for refugees.
You can give me a million dollars and i still wouldnt want to have a baby 😂
Why???
@@jamesb.hallmd9899 Some people just don't want kids. I don't.
@@dergluckliche4973 same I don't get the point of having children, it is expensive and very exhausting.
@@gottod6895 I don't know. I understand it has a point _for people who want children._ I don't understand the point of some people getting so wound up about the fact _some people_ don't want children. I'd almost envy the free time they have to be so invested in strangers' reproductive choices, which have zero impact on their own lives, but thankfully, despite having no children, my life is pretty full - mostly with pursuits of my own choosing rather than the endless obligations dictated by having children.
@Doktor Doof And in English?
Europe is spending thousands for every immigrant entering illegally, so sure Europe has money to have more kids. Also you gave too much air time to the girl of that weird organisation which nobody ever heard of and wants Greece population to shrink. Her opinion represents no more than 100 people
Καλιμερα! Yay I can practice my Greek. Greece is so beautiful I can’t wait to go back, its weird because now that I think about it I don’t recall see any Greek children. I saw like maybe 3 or 4 and I was there for 2 months.
I can't even discipline myself to lose a few pounds how I am supposed to raise a child
Finally, rare voice of honesty. Thank you, lady.
You are WEAK
well it is not like you need to raise kid alone
Generally, when you have no choice, you dig down deep and find it within you.
Keep the weight, you need it for child-bearing. 2 birds with 1 stone
Christos the only child in the Island and at school
How are we supposed to have kids when the average wage is 600-800€? That's barely enough to rent a small apartment and pay for electricity and water in Athens. When people want to have a child, they want to support it in every way. Health, clothing, education etc.
Unfortunately, for some people, it's impossible.
I was lucky to be raised in the countryside, but I still know that there are people out there who simply can't make their ends meet.
Government monthly child support isn't even enough to buy a baby's diapers😂.
"That's barely enough to rent a small apartment and pay for electricity and water in Athens."
Move out of Athens.
@@SakisKotisis and find work where? In the countryside?? 😂😂😂
That would be nice, but it's way too hard. Moving out of the capital isn't easy. Most hospitals, work vacancies, universities are in Athens.
My parents are living in the countryside and now they regret that they chose to live in the countryside (due to my dad's work), because we have to pay rent for me and my brother who are studying in Athens.
In other words, it's x2 the money.
So it ain't worth it.
Geez this world really has changed. what happened to just having children because you wanted to? no politics, no incentives, just the desire of a family?
Most people in developed nations are materialistic nowadays which is why they don't want to have children. Don't fall for the financial security garbage. The wealthiest people have the lowest birthrates. They have low birth rates because they don't want to have children not because they don't have financial security.
@@d4nkx549 Westerners are losing religion and becoming more and more narcissistic. They think they are their own gods, yet they're driving a bus into a tree.
@@nightprowler6336 It will eventually lead to their doom and they will return to their traditions. Nature always fixes itself.
When everyone was farmer, more kids meant more helpers. This in addition to very high child mortality rate led to most people have 10 kids each woman.
Now almost every kid survives and one will have to quit their job or hire a nanny to raise their children. There is no reason to have 5 kids when you're a poor service worker.
Because it is very expensive and wages aren't meeting living costs. If you can afford it and want to, you are blessed.
The economy must really stink if people don't want to raise a family in such a beautiful place. The water is as blue as the sky!
Something is terribly wrong when the government can't manage money
economy and conditions on these remote places isn't that great. Places with more opportunities like Athens and other major cities aren't as beautiful like in the islands.
You have to keep in mind that the economy of Greece and especially in places shown is based on tourism, and tourists don't need schools, large hospitals, homes for families living long term, etc. The population and life in these islands inflates and deflates based on the months of the year, the majority of businesses stay closed throughout the year with owners and workers living in other urban areas for off season work and then work during the holidays in the tourism industry.
People can also be very selfish to not raise kids and have a family.
It's selfish to have kids in the current overpopulation epidemic (2 is the very limit anyway)
@@jlc5271 there is no overpopulation get over the myth. Just do some research and learn
omg the reporter is so gorgeous. love her
I hate when at 0:07 she says "us", she is not even European
@@Fabian-cv9yl yeah but even with brexit, british people are still kind of european
@@Davao420 you don't understand, that's not what I meant, ethnically she's not European
@@Fabian-cv9yl i understood what you meant, but there is no one european ethnicity, if you mean she's not white, not all europeans are scandinavian looking
@@Fabian-cv9yl if she has a parent that is European and had European ancestors and she’s born and had grown up in Europe, could she not be considered as European
Great report, didn’t see the interviewers point of view being pushed. Gave both sides an equal time to post their views 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
I am a young, educated Greek Australian with a child, I would love nothing more than to move to Greece. There is an oppportunity now with the "work from home" trend, I could earn at Australian wages and spend my money in Greece, but it would take the bureaucrats to work out some sort of reciprocal tax policy to facilitate it (also drop the mandatory army service).
Insteresting, that mandatory army is gone in Croatia, Bosnia and almost in the whole region. What is the reson it is still mandatory in Greece ?
@@denydeni144 Because Turkey is run by a lunatic and they keep breaching Greek airspace and naval boundaries.
When it comes to babies vs environment, I think it is important to keep in mind that the replacement rate (ie keep the population the same) is 2.1 babies per woman. In most high income countries, the fertility rate is
that and lowering the population on lifestock never comes into the equation
Is it fair to the unborn to force them into an existence just for the benefit of a crumbling society? We'll bear them into this world to replace us just as the consequences of our inaction on climate change will truly take hold and cause untold amounts of social strife.
@@windwaker0rules never underestimate the power of cow farts :P
Don't forget immigration. Sure they won't be Greek people with Greek traditions, but they'll be people in Greece. Seems to me, I remember a whole bunch of Syrians got dropped on Greece, and they weren't welcomed with open arms. Islands need to do more to be attractive places to live, especially for younger adults, and kids will follow. Jobs, tourism, etc. little fishing communities aren't going to last when even the one kid there wanted off.
@@GrumpysWorkshop Your right, the population in Africa and Europe around the year 2000 was roughly the same at 750 millions, by 2035 in Africa there will be 2 billion, while in Europe it will have decreased slightly. We should welcome, let's say 1 billion Africans to Europe, problem solved.
I agree, Greece needs to focus on it's own HERITAGE and production and not worry about the world. When the birth rate us low the name becomes meaningless. There will be no one to carry out the history and genealogy of the lineage.
Why was this series stopped after only 3 videos? Such an important topic that many shy away from.
Time to end our fixation with GDP and growth and let the world find an equilibrium before we consume ourselves.