John Vervaeke - How to Build a Life of Wisdom, Flow, and Contemplation | The Tim Ferriss Show
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- Опубликовано: 20 июн 2024
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Resources from this episode: tim.blog/2023/02/23/john-verv...
John Vervaeke (@vervaeke_john) is a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto. He currently teaches courses on thinking and reasoning with an emphasis on cognitive development, intelligence, rationality, mindfulness, and the psychology of wisdom.
Vervaeke is the director of UToronto’s Consciousness and Wisdom Studies Laboratory and its Cognitive Science program, where he teaches Introduction to Cognitive Science and The Cognitive Science of Consciousness, emphasizing the 4E model, which contends that cognition and consciousness are embodied, embedded, enacted, and extended beyond the brain.
Vervaeke has taught courses on Buddhism and Cognitive Science in the Buddhism, Psychology, and Mental Health program for 15 years. He is the author and presenter of the RUclips series “Awakening from the Meaning Crisis” and his brand new series, “After Socrates.”
Please enjoy!
00:00 Start
02:23 The four ways of knowing (4P).
07:22 Affordances.
09:48 Semantic memory.
10:52 Flow.
25:32 Did John find Tai Chi, or did Tai Chi find him?
28:33 Leaving Christianity.
34:07 Wisdom vs. knowledge.
36:28 Self-deception.
40:20 When is logic the illogical choice for solving a problem?
44:43 The powers and perils of intuition.
54:15 Spotting patterns that need breaking.
58:46 Meditation vs. contemplation.
1:05:00 Misunderstanding love.
1:06:12 Circling.
1:12:21 “God is related to the world the way the mind is related to the body.”
1:14:35 A non-theist in the no-thingness.
1:24:59 Responsive poiesis and Sufism.
1:28:59 Neoplatonism.
1:30:47 Seminal moments.
1:33:28 Pierre Hadot.
1:35:37 Two books.
1:36:43 Potent poetry.
1:39:59 The four Es.
1:45:24 Two bonus Es.
1:48:29 Heretical beliefs.
1:58:09 Panpsychism.
2:05:32 Most unusual modes of cognition.
2:07:20 Jordan Peterson.
2:16:02 Opponent processing.
2:19:38 How to support friends endeavoring to lead meaningful lives.
2:23:49 After Socrates.
2:28:00 Western words.
2:31:41 John’s changing perspective of experienced reality.
2:34:46 Something old, something new.
Tim Ferriss is one of Fast Company’s “Most Innovative Business People” and an early-stage tech investor/advisor in Uber, Facebook, Twitter, Shopify, Duolingo, Alibaba, and 50+ other companies. He is also the author of five #1 New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers: The 4-Hour Workweek, The 4-Hour Body, The 4-Hour Chef, Tools of Titans and Tribe of Mentors. The Observer and other media have named him “the Oprah of audio” due to the influence of his podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show, which has exceeded 900 million downloads and been selected for “Best of Apple Podcasts” three years running.
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Thank you Tim, for being a beautiful host 🙏 and for having John as a guest
P
Aa
Man am I glad to see John Vervaeke getting more attention. Congrats, John.
So cool to see him on eh?
Me also!!
He's done Lex and Ferris, just needs Rogan now 😆
So cool to see TOE getting more attention too, Curt :)
Same. So good
I consider myself something of a Vervaeke scholar 😉 I watch him religiously. I've never seen him this alive during an interview/online conversation. You really brought out the best in him, Tim!
"Love isn't an emotion. It isn't a feeling. It is an existential stance of commitment to binding your identity to the identity of something or someone else." ~ John Vervaeke
What a mind, John Veraeke. Insight, intelligibility, transference of knowledge and the sacred. Watching this talk numerous times as the content is rich, multi-dimensional, layered, connected to self, we and on and on and on. THIS! This is a man I have been searching for without knowing I was searching, until I found him. Brilliant
Great talk. Thank you for introducing me to Prof. Vervaeke. I'm currently listening to hours of his lectures. I am so glad to have found him!!!
He’s a gem of a discovery!
Vervaeke is such a great mind. It's great to see him "become" the best version of him self. 🙏👏👏👏
This conversation was just amazing. Truly truly thankful for this. The notion that love is not an emotion but an existential state was mind blowing for me.
Loved John's comments on JBP. A model for how we all should interact with one another.
Such a great interview. Tim’s questions were put together well. Tangible & practical first . Vervaeke’s wisdom accessible & at his best.
Thank you Tim. John is such a wealth of knowledge but your ability to ask such practical questions makes his vast knowledge so much more accessible and understandable. You two make a great team and I hope you plan on doing more of these talks.
Great show! Been listening to Vervaekes 50-part series; Awakening from the Meaning Crisis- and I’m very glad that he is now getting the spotlight his extraordinary mind and structured work deserves!
Fantastic, Tim. You've done a great service bringing John and his work to a bigger audience. I felt like I was drinking out of a firehose!
John's soul is beautiful. A man of truth. Of goodness.
Probably one of the best interviews yet. So informative and practical.
Ferriss does a wonderful job in these long format interviews. I can't always set aside 2hrs plus, but always the content and the guests are terrific!
Was so excited to see this pairing! Longtime listener of Tim's, but recently discovered John. Both have been huge sources of inspiration, contemplation, and transformation for me. Tim's knack for asking deep, practical questions pairs well with John's nuanced conceptual framework of the world. I wish they could dialogue more!
This was a great conversation, I'm very glad to see you guys connect, thank you both!
Glad to see Vervaeke getting his due. It's the attention he deserves and people need to hear.
Amen!
Yes! Talk about flow state!
Man it's so great to see John getting traction. Such important work and his message is one we truly need
Best conversation I've eavesdropped on in a very long time! Thank you both
Intuition is a result of implicit learning. Implicit learning doesn’t care what patterns it picks up, it doesn’t distinguish real causal patterns from correlation patterns.
Jung once said Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate
Absolutely! It's true that intuition can be a result of implicit learning, which can pick up various patterns, whether they are real causal patterns or just correlation patterns. Therefore, it's important to become more aware of our unconscious patterns and bring them to our conscious mind so that we can better understand and manage them. Jung's quote about the unconscious ruling our lives until we bring it into consciousness is a powerful reminder of this.
JV is really killing it here!
This by far is my favorite episode of any podcast on the internet!
One of the few that I will replay often.
Thank you both!
Tim thanks for keeping and bringing back the conversation to beginners mind. Anchoring his big wonderful brain into the real and experiential. You even got him to drop his voice down into his belly and he became more embodied and grounded in his root the more specific you became with your questions. Brilliant. Thanks!!I loved this conversation. It showed your breadth and willingness to be humble and simple. 🙌
Thank you Tim for this! John's work is transforming hearts and minds and has so much potential to heal our broken world.
Brilliant conversation! For sure one that I will listen to again! Thank you.
Tim you are such a skilled interviewer! Often you go places with your guests they never go on other podcasts ❤
Commenting for reach because John deserves it.
*tosses a comment to the algorithm*
Algorithm learns to give a negative 1 for each of these 😮
It is always nice to hear John on bigger podcasts. Somehow, it has a different taste to it. Regarding the comments on Peterson, I partially agree, but somehow listening to Jordan's lectures gives me a strange empowering effect for taking action towards a better life.
It's inspiring to see John get so fired up ❤❤️🔥🔥
This is an interview I didn’t know I needed today 😂
If you are going to try Circling, please try it in person rather than online. There is a loss of non-verbal communication when doing Circling online, IMHO.
As for Rilke, the book "Selected Poems of Rainer Maria Rilke" translated by Robert Bly
I had trouble with overthinking things, after listening to this, my mind finally left me alone.
I'm glad to hear that listening to this helped quiet your mind and reduce overthinking. Sometimes all it takes is a little shift in perspective to find peace and clarity. Keep up the good work!
Listening to this was such a joy. I really appreciate how you managed, per usual, to distill really complex concepts into SO many tactical nuggets. THANK YOU!!
7minutes in and I want to take his class... bravo timbo...
Like the vibe on this Tim. Amazing conversation!!
Vervaeke was probably my fav prof at u of t, thrilled he is getting his frameworks out there on platforms like Ferris
i have been waiting for this conversation... it's been about 2 years of waiting... finally!
Would love to hear Tim's argument regarding JP strengthened beyond an explanation using democracy.
Well done, thank you both John, and Tim, for sharing your time and work, peace
This is like a graduate class in life.
Totally fascinating conversation. Thank you both.
Tim 🎡(and all you rascals reading this), in my aiming at finding and creating meaning, I have done so through setting a 10:43 AM EST alarm clock for me and my international group of friends to have as a reminder to simply breathe in deeply all together every day. Because the Pacific is so big, most humans with phone alarm clocks are awake and able to participate in a shared moment of a shared breath every day and that time is 10:43 EST. Not YOUR 10:43. 10:43 EST. It is a synchronization of that hereness and nowness John talks of. It is literally inspiring because inspire means to breath in. I’m just trying to live out my namesake and be “a friend of humanity.”
Thank you for all you are and all you do, John and Tim (and you my dear reader.)
Set your alarm for 10:43 EST AM!
Aloha!
God, I love you both so much! It's like Christmas when my favorite thinkers get together.
Tim, I wandered back into your content a fews ago. So on point. Thank you
Thank you and nice to meet you!
The only improvement I would ask of the editors would be to preserve the temporal context.
The development of the conversation was one of the very interesting parts of this great experienced.
Still all the way awesome as it is. Might just be male fix it syndrome.
Anyway, your humility and curiosity were inspirational. 😃
Thank you Tim. What would life be without these delicious conversations?
Time stamp: 1:05:20. The definition of "love". Mind blown! Felt compelled to comment twice. "an existential stance of commitment". BRUH.
Felt compelled to be committed enough to say I love you Bruh. Aloha!
I’d like to see Vervaeke and Gabor Maté
John Vervaeke - so glad you two connected for this. John makes metaphysics make sense! Thanks Tim. Vervaeke has had some fascinating conversations with his good frien Jordan Peterson.
Yooo this is dope 🙈
I’m fascinated about how much JV covers through his knowledge. I’ve been watching his series Awakening from the meaning crisis. I’m that impressed that I force myself to question him to try understand better because it sounds to good to be true. And I want to know what would be his position or point of view on malicious/harmful people who might be affecting other through their actions or decisions. Sometimes thousands of people. How would his work on Relevance Realization could help society addressing and improving this issues.
My POV would be that the more you operate at this level the more conscientious people you have orbit you in your life, like a gravity well. If you're not quite fully realized yet in your life path (goals are still ahead of you), then these people will still cross your path, and if you're mindful you can easily spot them for what they are and try to consider the opportunity they provide. I think someone said difficulties need to be reframed in the mind, instead of thinking of them as barriers, they're chances for us to learn from and improve if we're open and attentive. But I think they help us improve as continual reminders of karmic and financial debt too, which we need to work at paying back into ourselves! That would be my short answer. Probably not super useful for you and possibly something you've heard before I'm sure.
Where is Tim ?
I always get the feeling like I just went to see a great movie at the cinema, that left me with more inspiration and questions than I had before I went to see it whenever I listen to conversations with Vervaeke.
Thanks Tim, You always interview essential people.
I loved this conversation. Thanks
Making connections between activities and emotional intelligence.
Making connections between people is important in order to get new information based upon understanding.
Making connections is important because of the struggles of Boys and Men.
Making connections prayerfully is vital to personal studies. Meaning requires making connections.
1:23:23 John says: Aquinas called God 'an ocean of being'; a favorite line from Abraham Joshua Heschel is 'our individual moments of faith are mere waves in the endless ocean of mankind's reaching out for God'. The pasture where I feed and clean for three mares twice a day is my church - yup to so much of what John's work is bringing forward, thank you for this wonderful conversation. One day, what we might call the enlightened horsemanship community and the cognitive science community will discover the unique things each has to offer the other. Maybe even soon... 🧒🐎💃
I was REALLY into Tim Ferriss in young adulthood.
When I hit 30 I found John Vervaeke, David Sinclair and AndrewHuberman and became ABSOLUTELY obsessed.
Now Tim Ferriss is interviewing these people and it feels SO WRONG 🤣
Since when did I discover someone that Tim didn't get to first?! Unreal.
Beautiful.
Love the information
Amazing! I knew this has to happened when you mentioned in an earlier podcast that you were interesting in animals and other ways of knowing!
there is a cut after minute 20. I have no grasp on how long has been skipped. is it the 10 minutes that come at the end, cause I watch them and couldn't fit them in.
How does making connections become helpful in connection to the flow state of learning about educational materials ?
John, I have been following your work for some time. I hope these comments reach you. I love your passion and rigor; you are clearly on to something. But PLEASE CLARIFY:
How do the 4 ways of knowing nuance our understanding of flow, beyond simply saying it’s not propositional?
How does flow relate to a sense of meaning? Not just in the moment, but an enduring sense. Is there a neurological basis for your claims here?
What does neuroscience have to say about flow and the sensation of meaning…how can we be sure we’re talking about the same thing?
The methods you describe for achieving flow here don’t seem to meet the standards you propose for flow. There seems to me a significant difference between rock climbing or surfing, for example, and dialogue. Not saying you didn’t find flow through dialogue, just that it seems to be a very different kind of flow, with possibly different consequences both neurologically and experientially.
This relates to the 4E or 6E discussion…which of the E’s is engaged, and to what degree, might provide a useful way to differentiate between types of flow.
Finally, please do jump into the psychedelic pool more fully. We are at the right cultural moment for this. How does the psychedelic experience, achieved through plant medicine, or breathwork, or sufi dancing, or what have you, relate to meaning? The pathway seems clearly not to be through flow as you describe it.
If you have been diligently searching these past 120 days hence, my response is no longer relevant. However, in the case that you haven't found what you are looking for, given that this quest is still relevant to you, John thoroughly covers all of your questions and many, many more in his series Awakening From the Meaning Crisis. I'd attempt an answer, but that would be more than pretentious on my part as I am still a child...
very cool.
What were those books?
❤❤❤
“Eternity doesn’t mean everlasting-ness, it means not bound by time and space”.
2:18:52
John Verveake is a massive brain, a wealth of knowledge, and wisdom. I encourage everyone to check out his work ❤️
@1:05:00 Love
I’m not a clever man, but I’ve always been a good judge of character. John is someone I would trust to keep safe something I hold dear to my heart.
😎
1:40:10 so the 4Es are saying that cognition is like a flower.
What does ‘copo Canadien’ answer mean? 2:29:15
I bet someone please enlighten me, as Google can’t.
🙏🏽🥰
He's joking about a Canadian cop out, meaning taking a middle position rather than either pole.
... I like philosophical Fellowship
58:00 I can already see the mushrooming Vervaeke academies for cultivation of ecologies of practices am around the world, where people go in their free time after work. Would be really nice to have something like that.
It occurred to me that John is basically trying to introduce ecologies of practice whose goal is to mobilize the dipoles within us (make them more suple with higher range of motion) such that, ultimately, our ability to track (by attuning ourselves to) real patterns in the world becomes our second nature.
😷😷❤
Being 🌞
At the consciousness level, a table is itself a very arbitrary concept of an object. What makes a table a table? Assigning some form of consciousness to “something” that isn’t even possible to ultimately define seems like a weird move.
How do you define a person in a way that doesn’t have the same problem? Where do you separate exactly from your environment and social context?
No thing ness and inexhaustibility of partner is similar to Esther Perel and keeping mystery alive for a relationship
Thank you both for this! Teachers are powerful in their ability to translate ideas for impact. Thank you both for your work!
Outstanding crossover I did not expect to see
🤯
Where is the rest of this conversation.
Just a heads up, your edits on Spotify need this disclaimer at the beginning as well. Love the content, but your edits in general seem increasingly to be rushed and often create unnecessary confusion. Comment sent with love.
There was a spiritual need to my make the work of enjoyable learning, Making connections between activities and emotional intelligence,
Opening up my figurative heart is important for spiritual Rehabilitation and growth and healing.
-Matthew 5:3-12
Spiritual hunger is vital to gain more educational learning knowledge. The flow of words has positive power for spiritual healing. Fellowship keeps your spirit alive
day by day. 2 -Corinthians 4:16-18
Effective Sharing work. What is it really ? Making connections between activities and emotional intelligence that requires plenty of study, Meditation, and reading well . 1-Corinthians 15:7-12,22,33,58
The quote ""God is related to the world as the mind to the body" is often attributed to the philosopher and theologian, George Berkeley.
Brilliant episode, Tim 🙏
This was an amazing discussion - thank you so much for this! Hope you can make a clip on the opponent processing/democracy/JP section too - would be very helpful imo.
Lets get into flow
John, what a lovely privilege it has been to both grow with you, grow without you, observe growth in many ways, and being grateful for it. One of the observations that has been profound and beautiful has been to see your growth. You have grown beautifully, and it shines from within you to without you and it is significant. You have grown into more of your potential, and you seem to have become more of what you are, better than what you were, and more fitted with who you were created to be which I believe is good. You are a good person. You've grown in ways that a significant goodness has become personified and opened up to connect to the good to which we all have access. You're not a seed,seedling,plant, bush or groundcover, you're a tree. You are becoming the tree of life that is you, and you are flourishing. Keep on keeping on. You're grounded, growing, branching out, bearing leaves, beginning to experience different seasons of life in New ways, and you're transforming in growth and becoming prominent in a way that there is in unseen sight, the possibility of bearing flowers and fruit is on the horizon. Well done, congratulations. From dust to dust, from glory to glory. On rumi, there's a quote that goes something like "be like a tree and let the dead leaves fall" and somehow I feel that it's relevant here.
John, you have actually helped me to go back into Christianity In a way that is very different than before. Like a pursuit of goodness, beauty,truth , wisdom , etc. I chose life. I decided to chose that. I realized that I actually mattered , that I didn't have to write myself off, that I have meaning and potential and life is worth living and it wasn't too late for me , my story wasn't over, I had a chance to step into a way , and i did, which opened up and unlocked a new journey and way of being that is connected with life. I have learned so much about who I am and who others are and what wonderful opportunities there are in life to come into relation with creation. Philia Sophia- the love of wisdom. Agape- a love in which that love of wisdom is included amongst a few other things including the unknown or the lack of knowing everything and being able to trust by sight of faith, access to flow and consciousness and Guidance from God all whilst being alive here on earth and witnessing life unfold in ways that I can only give my gratitude to God. Amazing Grace hallelujah praise the lord how God is good. John, I believe he placed you in my path in order to learn how to see in a another way that was new and different to my other perspectives. I understand more now about what renewal of the mind can do. Wisdom begins in the fear of God. I believe that I have tapped into that enough times to say i believe. I have worked hard at developing an ecology of practises for wisdom and am busy trying to develop something similar to cultivate peace, for lack of better words.On Jesus- I believe that he was one of the best teachers of humility and empathy and set a great example of man. He was an answer. He was part of a promise being fulfilled. He was a way of introduction to the logos and to God. He was a blessing and was blessed and he blessed others. I am not comparing you and him but i will say that you are like a blessing, at least to me, part of a process of an answer to a prayer. I believe that you are blessed. May you continue to be blessed. I include you in my prayers. May you gaurd your heart and may you feel the love that surpasses understanding. One day ,should our paths cross again, in person, I will see to it that I come to shake your hand and thank you, Sir. You were a wonderful teacher and I appreciate how my life transformed for the better through the education you provided. By that time I hope to also gift to you a pearl of Wisdom gained from my own life experience and ecologies of practise. I aspired to teach as well. I am now teaching young kids a Learner Advancement course that I developed and designed and John, if only you could see the joy. Wow. As always, bless your heart.
And I highly recommend doing Awakening from the meaning crisis and After Socrates, they're amazing
I’m curious (17 min in) he talked about how people become addicted to video games because of the flow state. Could that be why people get addicted to drugs and alcohol because it puts them in a flow state?
Can't answer that, but in my experience the flow state always involves movement with purpose. Movement of ideas in conversation can fulfill this principle. But, engaging the entire body in a purposeful movement is easier. Movements like surfing or snowboarding or sex or dancing just gets you there faster, in some cases. So get moving:-)
Perhaps in certain cases! Alcohol can make you less anxious (temporarily) so maybe you feel closer to flow for example.
Flow state entails an intersection between challenge and skill. I would say etoh and drugs do not enhance either, certainly not skill. JV does elaborate more on addiction in that it is a reciprocal closing of the inner the outer worlds. Perceived reality and possibility effectively shrinks until the addiction itself is all that exists. Luckily, JV is also exploring reciprocal opening in therapy and seems to be a light worth exploring.
Flow is a good way to trick the devil.
Wowie: "Love is an existential binding, an existential stance. It's a commitment to this co-identification process and it being something by which each of us can bring out the good and cultivate deeper personhood for each other."
Been thinking about this a lot lately. Love can only exist in relation to an "other". Even self-love seems to require a sort of disassociation/othering perspective of one's self. God is love./? More stuff..
Edit. "CULTIVATION! GARDENER!"
So happy to see John on your show! Really made my day.
To summarize the Greek philosophy is the basis to understand wisdom,Buddhism by Joseph Goldstein translated.The rebublic book by Plato about justice,Aristotle books,Emanual Kant about human understanding,David Humes assay about human understanding,book meditation by Marcus Aruleus.Take knowledge from the sources not from what other brains understand from these sources.Talking Too much is less.
Aflow state is as experienced,highly qualified,highly skilled happy to be able to operate on a patient ,very high risk,his life in balance of life and death,most other average doctors run away from doing such cases.This surgeon will dive in ,fully absorbed in the procedure and doing more than the best and patient survived.Agood example doing placenta accretion,needed 55 pints blood and brought from intensive care unit three times to control the oozing of blood and she survived.