Jennifer Crumbley trial: Prosecution's closing arguments
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- Опубликовано: 1 фев 2024
- “It’s a rare case," Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald told the jury. "It takes the unthinkable, and she has done the unthinkable, and because of that, four kids have died.”
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Just imagine…going to jail for being a bad mother…and it’s about damn time! People, please stop having babies if you can’t commit to them for life!
Perfect argument for pro choice!
Exactly!
She failed the shooter. The school failed its students. Both parents seem off. She’s not going to jail for being a bad mom. She’s going to prison for breaking the law and that caused people to get killed. The school should’ve done more to protect its students like demanding that he be taken to the hospital. Instead they didn’t search his backpack and just sent him back to class.
@@Weatheredstorms1calm down- her giving her mentally I’ll, underage kid a g u n IS being a bad mother so it’s obvious what they meant. And the school doesn’t have authority to check bags without CAUSE. Look up the fourth amendment. A doodle and a kid saying he is sad isn’t reason to think he illegally owns and possesses a g u n. The parents knew this and conveniently didn’t mention it. It’s on them.
If I was the prosecutor I would have ask her "If they where so scared that he was going to hurt himself why then give him a weapon???
SHE WAS PROVING GUN FOR KIDS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE NRA HA
Probably just to distract their son from bothering them.
Give me a break. The “school counselor thought he might be suicidal”. That was some time after any gun was bought and it wasn’t “his” to do whatever he wanted…dah. It was a family sport at the range and suppose to be under parents control. You HAVE to be a parent to even try to understand this!
Since when a defense attorney is allowed to ask question during a closing argument? Blows my mind
They're allowed to object, it just doesn't happen a lot.
@@sarahsaeger9105 object yes, ask questions no
The judge had allowed lots of other things that are normally prohibited, so the DA took advantage of that situation. The prosecution did not object.
@@The_CR_PhilI’d say defense attorney because when you shorten it to DA it usually means District attorney which is what a prosecutor is. So it can confuse people.
Why why why buy a gun for a troubled young Man
They want their son become the new Kyle Rittenhouse, but younger.
You don't buy a gun for a child with perceivable mental health problems.
@@kinorspielmann4649Guns shouldn't be bought for anyone under the age of 18.
@@kinorspielmann4649 The kid's trial already debunked the mental heath problems theory. FYI A psychiatrist at Ethan's trial already determined he lied about the hallucinations and all his " False cries for help" and determined he has no mental illness whatsoever. The shooter confessed the parents knew nothing and that he acted alone. So you can put that to rest in all of your outrage. This trial is a witch hunt. A political ploy for gun control. Want to find out how many extraordinary parents are having affairs? You want to jail all the family members of suspected mentally ill criminals based on texts and the feeling of the victims? Is that what you want? I mean how stupid can you be. That is illegal. It is called Wrongful Imprisonment. I am an actual attorney. At a Federal Level, this trial is a Human Rights Violation. Jennifer Crumbley can sue the State of Michigan and the prosecution for wrongful incarceration. In my opinion as a lawyer, she should have already started doing something on that front. She should also be going after the school for not doing their part in searching the son's backpack.
Haven't they learned from sandy hook? If your kid has problems. DON'T BUY HIM A GUN!
She doesn't regret what she did and wouldn't act any differently? Wow!
Says it point blank. No heart.
Because she did not know! She did her best.The dad is useless!! Dad barely works and relies on wife for all!
Parents must be legally responsible for their children. Take into account those parents sought help and those who did not. When parents get imprisoned like their child, then others might take parenting seriously.
Not sure why you are bringing race and marital status into this, but any parent who exhibits the extreme negligence that these parents in the fact of an extremely disturbed child with access to a weapon should absolutely be held responsible. @@lastfirst78
Do they ignore psychotic hallucinations , buy their kid a gun, ignore the drawings ,journal, text and posts to friends?
@@lastfirst78 racist much?
@@vjc1902your the one the mention the a color of someone skin Putting a color in a statement and that's racist. Parents of any color especially in a case like this should be held accountable
@@joecrackers3770 who mentioned the color?
This mother set her own son up to do this horrible thing. It’s like she wanted him to commit murder to get rid of him. She apparently did not love her son and neglected and emotionally abused him. This is why this horrible thing happened. Hoping for guilty verdict
I genuinely believe she hoped he would shot himself, she said she was afraid of that happening but at the same time kept guns unlocked
That's exactly what I was thinking. That he killed others surprised her but she was waiting for him to go away. So sad. @@bettlup
@@Becki545 Put a lid on your unhinged baseless outrage.
I'm not outraged. I'm sad. I hope you can get counseling for your outrage that has nothing to do with me. @@CharlotteFerrariBreton
@@Becki545 You always take your frustrations out on strangers online? @Becki545?
Throughout you never heard once Jennifer say how bad she felt about the kids that died or harmed!!
But we heard how they were f@cked! Everything was about how she suffered! Sadly I think it’s difficult
for Jennifer to look beyond her own needs.
That’s called a narcissist
@@itsonlyatail Exactly!
Hear! Hear!
It may have gone over better if Jennifer would have expressed her immense grief over the loss of the four students at the hands of her son. She could have shown some remorse.
Its about her. Obviously she was not as involved with her son as she claims. I just get the “hes inconvenient” over and over. I has listened to the trial. And her sons. Just my opinion
This idea of giving firearms to underage children needs to stop. Simple. This kid had no reason in the world to have a gun let alone practice at a gun range with it. The parents are extremely negligent here.
I'd take it a step further. No one needs firearms in 2024. Stop making excuses. The law is supposed to evolve with the times. Stop supporting the NRA, stop supporting the incompetent GOP. Get with the times. Evolve. You're not cave people America. Stop acting like it.
sincerely all of Europe
Good closing from the prosecutor. Laying down the facts as they happened. A common sense argument backed by evidence defeating the standard of ordinary care. Well Done!
WHY didn't she care?!? It just blows my mind!!
@@teresathayn5170IMO, she intended for him to end himself. Didn’t care about anyone else but herself.
@@shindles Please don’t ever be on a jury.
@@shindles LIKE THE DEFENSES NAKED BITS N PEICES FARIY TALES AH HA DERP
@@justkiddin84 THAT WAS OBVIOUS WHEN THEY BECAME FUGATIVES HA HA
Regardless of the outcome she will be the most hated Mother in America next to Casey Anthony.
i have no issue with her - the counswelor is to blame if anyone other than the boy is
AMEN 🙏 TO THIS ! THIS IS LITTERALY THE BEST COMMENT .. THANK YOU
AGREE CA is the MOST HATED and she killed her own kid. Now, and since CA gets to walk amongst us, THIS PERSON takes the lead. If she too, like CA is found not guilty, the next child killer will be MUCH WORSE
I doubt it.
@@bikeman1x11who gave a mentally drained child who can't buy a gun a gun. The school?
I can’t get past the fact that Jennifer Crombley was aware that her son had been exhibiting signs of depression. He even asked for help but she chose to ignore those cries and even though she didn’t purchase the gun, she took it upon herself to take him to the gun range, later bragging about it on social media. When she saw the disturbing pictures he drew on his math test she again ignored his obvious cries for help and didnt take him out of school for treatment. ANY responsible parent wouldn’t have acted in the ways she did. GUILTY - beyond a reasonable doubt.
I'm a mom of 6, 5 living and all grown now. I labored, birthed, nursed them.....I can tell you this....any time my kids were having issues, they didn't have to tell me anything, I KNEW. I could tell by their body language, demeanor, attitude, tone in voice, everything.... even if they told me "I'm fine", I knew they weren't. I knew they were going through something. Being a parent is the hardest, most frustrating, most exhausting journey ever.....yet also the most joyful, fantastic, immeasurably exhilarating journey ever. Every child needs to be seen, needs your time, needs to know they are known, needs to feel safe, a parent needs to be their sanctuary!
Ethan had no one, he didn't have his own mom be his #1 fan, be his champion, be his hero. Parents aren't perfect, we fail, but the key is we quicken in our failures , change course, turn the trajectory back in the right direction and show our children failure can be a stepping stone.
These parents failed miserably. Instead of looking past their own nose and see what was happening to their son, see that their failures were effecting their son and change course. They buy him a gun. A tool for a troubled child to use to lash out. These parents neglect and failures cost 4 precious souls their lives.
These parents are absolutely culpable in the crime.
I also knew when something was bothering my son. I got him help instantly and he kept saying "I'm fine". I knew he wasnt.
Spot on! You sound like a wonderful Mom. I feel sorry for the lives lost and I also feel bad for the shooter. If that boy was in a different environment I doubt this would have happened.
Well, aren’t you mother of the year!! Give me a fucking break. I don’t know anyone who would ever think that their child is a murderer. Get off your high horse! Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
It’s funny though, not every parent cares about their kids. Sad fact. My mother had six and would kill all of us if was between us and her. I love her but I will probably never speak to her again because she’s a bad and dangerous person.
In a lot of ways, Ethan was a victim in all this too. He became a monster but it’s possible he could have made it if his parents cared more.
Do you think the kid knew his mom was fooling around on his dad ?
Their son BEGGED for help. Rather than get him help, they bought him a firearm. They left him alone in jail to get a Public Defender while they HID then hired a PRIVATE ATTORNEY FOR THEMSELVES! The evidence speaks for itself as well as numerous actions and texts and such by these parents to indicate consciousness of guilt. LOCK THEM UP!
Their son said he begged for help.. in his school work book. There is no evidence that he begged his parents for help. No messages of him asking his parents for help .
@@lifewithdriYes there is. He texted it to his friend that he asked for help and was laughed at. He also wrote in his diary. I believe Jennifer admitted on the stand that her son asked her to take her to a doctor too.
@@lifewithdrion that drawing he literally wrote “help me.” “The thoughts won’t stop.” She even admitted that that she was concerned about it. For all of about the 12 minutes she was there for the meeting then she was out the door. & why would a kid lie to themselves in their own journal about asking for help?
How easy they made it for you to come to that conclusion. Prosecution is great at storytelling. Did you know that they claimed his mental health was fine during his trial? No one mentioned him “BEGGING” for help then. Get off the RUclips witch-hunt bandwagon.
@@makingchanges5943 did you watch any of his Miller hearing? Jennifer’s lucky that there was a LOT of info kept out of her case. How anyone can hear/read his journal & say he didn’t have mental problems… well; I hope you don’t procreate.
Consider this, Jennifer Crumbly could have easily taken that gun and kept it somewhere else. She was the one who 'planned' and 'took control' so why didn't she get the gun and pawn it or keep it somewhere away from her son? Wouldn't that be the logical thing to do?
WOULD YOU pawn your son's Christmas Present? What would you tell him after you'd done it? I don't think the simple act of getting the gun as a gift was wrong - if this were a normal situation. BUT they knew well before that purchase that their son was in trouble but they were in denial. Like a lot of parents who just refuse to see their children as anything but little angles. They are like the couple in a bad marriage who have a kid to help improve the marriage only then they have an innocent child who will suffer instead of just the two of them. This couple knew he needed help but instead of getting the help he NEEDED, they bought the help they WANTED - a gun. Bad Decision! No common sense - no awareness of the situation they were in. Could be that they too are mentally disturbed.
Giving a minor a gun as a present is certainly illegal.
Because they’re Americans and almost everyone in the US thinks everyone should have a gun. Until the laws change this is going to keep happening. It’s not the mothers fault or the fathers. It’s the governments.
@@LaddieCladInKiltohhh, we’re going with stupidity as the reason for them giving him a gun for a present? Stupidity isn’t a defense. They knew what they did was wrong, that’s why they immediately started to defend themselves from the beginning.
During the initial interview, the cops were only looking for more victims while they were still dealing with the massacre scene, the cops asked if her and her husband knew of any bombs, more weapons, any more potential victims, etc…. The husband started to answer…. The wife on the other hand answered, “Maybe we should get a lawyer first”.
She didn’t give a crap about anyone else or their safety at the time. She was worried about her narcissistic self. As per usual.
@@bluevalkyrie8981 Yeah, you're probably correct. Stupidity runs amok in that family. It was probably a stupid idea when they decided to have a child 17 years ago. They probably knew that they were not going to be good parents because they were too selfish. Parents have to give up a lot of their own desires, wishes, wants and even needs for the sake of their children. But they never wanted to do that. I don't know what kind of mother it takes to be teaching your child how to grow up and be an adult and all the while be cheating on her husband with another man. What kind of example does that provide? I doubt the affair was any really great love because now the guy won't have anything to do with her and even testified against her. The reason they wouldn't take him out of school that day was so that she could be unincumbered and able to go meet her boyfriend - now that is selfishness to the max not to mention the height of stupidity. Actually the more I know about them, the more sorry if feel for poor Ethan. It almost seems as if he had no choice - growing up with those two for parents. Some reports I read stated that he was often left alone in the house for hours and hours - as an infant and todler while they were off doing their own thing. I wonder what that could have been that was more fun and interesting than being home with their only child? Or what they couldn't find to do where they could take him along. When kids behave good and get no reward or praise but get attention when they're bad it doesn't take long to figure out that they need to be bad in order to have someone pay attention to them. Ethan had been signaling for help for quite some time but not getting attention. His getting caught looking at ammunition on his phone while in class was no accident. He wanted to be caught. His drawing of a gun, a body with bullet holes and words saying "Help Me" was no accident. He wanted someone to see it. His meeting in the school office with his parents and the counsellor was exactly what he wanted - BUT when they refused to take him home he probably felt abandoned. He he was screaming for help and none of them were listenting. He probably thought he needed to act out in a more desperate way than anything he'd ever done before. He wasn't a dummy. He had intelligence. He also had eyes and ears and had seen all the attention the previous school shooters around the country had gotten. He probably figured: _"I'll show them."_
If this is the defense tactics to win a case by interrupting the prosecution closing, in the hopes that the prosecutor fails and the jury gets out of focus, is very unprofessional of Shannon Smith.
Agreed! She’s a show woman craving attention, lacking common sense😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮
Her making her closing all about her to a large degree was extremely annoying & unprofessional also in my humble opinion! Prosecution did a good job throughout!
@@cristineconnell7803prosecution should’ve objected to her bringing up her personal life in her closing. That’s not evidence.
@@Cycle-Breakerno, much smarter to let her bumble along, annoying the jury.
She IS unprofessional. The comparison of her to the judge and prosecutor is striking. The Bar has obviously been dumbed down way too much.
These parents need to go to prison for a very long time.
On what grounds? Based on what? All this trial has is cherry picked texts with no context and feelings. Are you really that ridiculous?
@@CharlotteFerrariBreton on the evidence karen
@@CharlotteFerrariBreton I'm glad her life is over regardless, she is the most hated mother of the century as she earned, great example, neglect and affairs + gifted GUN = bored kid with bad outcome. SHOCKING ISN'T IT?
@@juliepollard592 Feelings are NOT evidence. Neither are out of context texts and hearsay or opinions. How dumb are you seriously?
@@juliepollard592 FEELINGS, OPINIONS, HEARSAY AND OUT OF CONTEXT TEXTS ARE NOT EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING.
The constant tantrums, the whiny voice, needing her hand held, the constant interruptions, constantly being unprepared… and yes, the inappropriate brightly colored suits ( not appropriate in the slightest for this particular case)- I thought we were finally done with this incompetent defense attorney! She had to draw attention to herself yet AGAIN! You do not interrupt the prosecutors closing statements!!! JUDGE, TELL HER TO SHUT UP FOR ONCE! These two must be related, the Judge coddles her like a child!
The judge demeanor is insufferable.
@JL-zn7me Oh the Prosecution is just as bad or worse. Their case is based on Feelings, cherry picked out of context texts, biased opinions and more feelings. ZERO Credible evidence. A lot of what this prosecutor does in her address to the Jury is plain old manipulation. Textbook teenage manipulation. When you have no evidence or your evidence is at best sketchy, playing with feelings is all you have. Feelings normally have no legal bearing or meaning. Feelings are not evidence of anything. Sensitive jurors might fall for it even if instructed not to. The problem with this whole case is it is 99.9 percent based on feelings, emotions and outrage. This trial in itself is illegal. They have no evidence for the charges they are trying to pin on the defendant. Both prosecution and defense are dumbfounded by the trial itself. Only in America does shiite like this happen.
@@IFChi1904 The Prosecution is a bunch of snowflake cry babies with no credible evidence.
@CharlotteFerrariBreton The crux of the case is the purchase of the gun for a troubled child, knowing what they knew, then abandoning their son at school even after the emergency meeting --- knowing what they knew.
The rest, I agree, is irrelevant emotionalism and manipulation.
@l.w.paradis2108 Purchasing a gun is not illegal. As for giving it to him is actually very difficult to prove. According to mental health experts at his trial he was not mentally ill
nor troubled. Just a bad seed like the Parkland Shooter. He is in jail forever. No need for politically driven witch hunts.
Guns should be locked in a safe that kids do not have access to open. We raised our kids with hunting rifles, our boy learned to hunt with his Dad. He was allowed to carry his rifle and shoot it in the mountains while hunting with his Dad and his Dad’s friends. When they got home from hunting the guns were cleaned and put back in the gun safe. Every parent should follow these rules for gun safety. A weapon is not a toy. It is for hunting or personal protection. Not to be available to any child whenever the child wants it. A child should always be supervised by an adult while guns are out of the safe. If the parents bought the gun for him and allowed him to know the combination or key to the safe then they are complicit.
@@shindles the young man had access to the guns.
@@shindles’because she said so,’ right?
Then the parents are responsible for his access. Teens especially live in the moment. They are generally not long term thinkers. That is why they need good parents. So whatever law is broken by not securing your weapons is what the parents are guilty of doing.
@@vickiegibson2920 SO DO MOST KIDS IN AMERICA ITS LEGAL BOO EFFING HOO HOO.
The judge is extremely different, whispers when she talks, never seen one like her.
She needs to go back to Judge School, or better yet, watch the Michelle Troconis trial. Now, that's a real judge.
Thinking about her grocery list while court in session…
She explained that the wall behind her is very thin and her voice disrupts the courtroom behind her.
Honestly a lot of judges are like her. I use to think that all judges yelled coz we see so many court shows like judge Judy. But that’s a show to entertain. This is real.
Me neither in a bad way . Hope she never has a high profile case again.
It is not customary to interrupt an attorney during an opening or closing statement. It’s so rude and against all court standards that they keep objecting. This is not the time for that.
Well when evidence is being displayed as evidence but isn’t admitted I think that’s important to interrupt there. You would feel the same if you were on trial for something your son did
@@brianhollon178 no it’s not time for arguments and evidence questions are handled pre trial. Fair trials mean following court rules. If it were my son and I was this monster of a mother I would have plead guilty and taken responsibility for my failings.
It is not usually done, but it is allowed. Simple google shows that.
If I was on this jury I’d hold her accountable, with that said I think people will struggle punishing parents for their kids actions although I think this is a case where we should. It’s unprecedented but I believe if a case fits this is it.
Be careful what you wish for.
I agree. They had one job. But instead they wanted to be his friend not his parent. They Need to be locked up. 4 families won't get their kid back. And so many have PTSD from their negligence
Hope the jury does the right thing and finds her GUILTY!
And I would suggest that this lame defense attorney took lessons from Amber Hurd's lame defense attorneys.
*that this lame defense attorney take
@@January.no, took. You are incorrect.
OP is saying she modeled herself on AH’s lawyer.
Guilty
This boy was screaming for help, and no one heard him. Not parents and very little from school officials.
Parents heard. Just didn’t care.
If the jury can't look at the news or the internet, why is the defense attorney discussing what she's read on it?.
as a juror id laugh at this pathetic prosecutor trying to blame parents and ask how many parents of street criminals has she charged!
@@bikeman1x11 if the parent supplies the weapon to the minor street criminals then they should be prosecuted as well.
She wants to derail this case I believe.
@@bikeman1x11you cant even spell.
@@al25354 bwaaaaaaaah cupcake
This just breaks my heart! When I was a kid I could tell my parents anything! If I'd been asking for help they would have stopped everything and got me help! I know kuz they did when something messed me up at age 11! May they both rest in peace with the knowledge that they were awesome loving accepting tolerant parents to me and my siblings! ❤
You're so lucky.
Sounds like to me those deleted messages are getting her caught And the different cell phones and a lot of cash caught on her.
That was done with such surgical precision. Not even the rude interruptions by Snappy Smith derailed Karen McDonald. The type of Karen all Karen’s should aspire to be.
Jennifer is the worst excuse of a mother, shes the real killer
You win dumbest comment on the internet. Congratulations! 🎉
This PROSECUTOR attorney is phenomenal!! She's classy, professional, direct, passionate, and sophisticated! I admire her strong determination to seek justice for the families.❤❤❤❤
WTF are you talking about?!😮😮
This is the prosecutor. The defense attorney is seeking “justice” for Jennifer Crumbley
@@Hursey97Shannon sought a plea of innocent, which is not the same as seeking justice. As the Defense attorney, she had the responsibility of representing her client, but it was the way she went about it that was problematic, deplorable and unprofessional. 🥺👎🏽
@@logicrealitytruth I know, I’ve watched the whole trial. That is why “justice” was in quotations. The defense attorney is deplorable. I was clarifying the original comment which mistakenly commended the defense attorney vs the prosecutor.
I totally agree she really wants Jennifer C to get the full 60 years in prison
Regardless of the outcome of this trial, I hope that there are parents out there that can see this is a "wakeup call". Such a senseless tragedy.
I wouldve had better closing arguments. Starting with: Jennifer Crumbleys son begged her for help and she ignored him. She got him a gun she did not secure and he killed people and planned it all while she was riding horses, a man outside her marriage and attending parties and bars. She never got him help and she is responsible for his ability to carry out a heinous crime that cost 4 innocent children their lives. Period.
huh? that’s exactly what the prosecution said in their closing arguments..
@@GorlPLZ yes she eventually got to the point but it took a while to get there.
@@January. r and e are next to each other on my keyboard it was a typo but thank u
@al25354 The kid's trial already debunked the mental illness theory. FYI A psychiatrist at Ethan's trial already determined he lied about the hallucinations and all his " False cries for help" and determined he has no mental illness whatsoever. The shooter confessed the parents knew nothing and that he acted alone. So you can put that to rest in all of your outrage. This trial is a witch hunt. A political ploy for gun control. Want to find out how many extraordinary parents are having affairs? You want to jail all the family members of suspected mentally ill criminals based on texts and the feeling of the victims? Is that what you want? I mean how stupid can you be. That is illegal. It is called Wrongful Imprisonment. I am an actual attorney. At a Federal Level, this trial is a Human Rights Violation. Jennifer Crumbley can sue the State of Michigan and the prosecution for wrongful incarceration. In my opinion as a lawyer, she should have already started doing something on that front. She should also be going after the school for not doing their part in searching the son's backpack.
Defense lawyer is so annoying
Lawyers should not be able to interrupt a closing argument.
They do it all the time.
The school calls an emergency meeting because of a drawing, yet does nothing about it. Case closed.
Exactly.
They called the parents in. Asked them to take him home and get him mental health care immediately. The parents did nothing and didn't bother to tell them he had access to a gun. Case closed.
@@cherylboucher4491 do you just make stories up as you go along, or do facts have nothing to do with your delusions? They never asked the parents to take him home, they never checked his backpack, and they did nothing to discipline him. Get a grip on reality
The school was responsible for providing protection to all their students! They did nothing! Kept him there and did not check his person or bag
I have a theory… I believe Jennifer hoped that her son might kill himself with one of those guns, so that she could be free to have affairs, and whatever else she was up to. I believe her son was a burden to her.
I agree
I've listened to dozens of hours of this trial and I haven't heard the prosecution say exactly what action she did that was illegal or equated to manslaughter. Only over and over that she took steps trying to avoid getting prosecuted. Did the mom tell the son to do it?
I was very troubled when I was growing up and, in hindsight, my parents have said they just didn't know what to do (so they did nothing). My parents also had problems in their marriage. I really think Jennifer and James simply checked out. I don't think either consciously disregarded his problems...I think they just avoided even engaging in any part of the family. They dostraced amd occupied themselves elsewhere. They just were in their own world where narcissism was the rule.
@@mcdinkysgarage4514yes basically
@@Melozia1times are different, I didn't have to worry EVER abt a student shooting me at school EVER.
The defense attorney is an idiot. No one is permitted to "object" during closing arguments. Where did she get her law degree? In the mail?
On Amazon!
I agree, except objections definitely are allowed. Interrupting to ask a question about evidence she did not bother to read about? Nope-judge should have told her no. Someone needs to.
Exactly what I said! The judge here is way out of line for allowing it!
Lock her up
@jamieandrick6541 lock you up too, pipe down
Honestly, this is an awful case all the way around. But having a teenager myself, I can tell you teenagers do not think clearly, but you cannot force a child to tell you something if they don’t want to tell you that’s why they’re called teenagers.. I believe that the school was a lot more compliant than their telling you that they were forcing her to take Ethan but really they weren’t forcing her because they let him stay.
The had two choices. Let him go home sad and depressed and possibly suicidal or keep him in school, his mother certainly wasn't going to take him home. My son has ADHD and when he was a kid schools didn't have the resources they do now and I was called to take him home often. None once did I refuse to come get him. I worked full time, single mother, no help because everyone worked but my son came first. She couldn't get out of the school fast enough, she didn't have to go back to work, her boss was flexible. I agree with you about teenagers but that is not the case here. She knew her son was having delusions, she didn't care that he was looking at bullets, told him not to get caught...and she also knew he had a gun and said nothing. Had she not withheld important information, the school would have managed the situation differently and those kids would still be alive. All this is on her.
They bought him a gun.
This judge is a mouth breather. Like...she never ever referees anything. Just sits there like 👁👄👁
Guilty‼️
There should have never been a gun in the first place i hate guns .never would I as a parent allow a gun to be anywhere near or in a home ,as parents we are responsible for there safety and to keep others safe .
Good for you. It's irrational to be so terrified of inanimate objects. A lot of people own guns specifically to keep themselves and others safe and people using them, or the threat of them, to defend themselves is something that happens on a daily basis.
I feel terrible for those victims and the families, schoolmates, teachers, and police that all had to live this. But Im still fuzzy on where exactly we draw the line for when a parent can be held criminally liable for the actions of their child. Is it mental health? The gun? Both? I also dont understand how they spent so much time saying "Jennifer wasnt there, she was with her horses" and then saying "she should have known." Like, they spend so much time saying she didnt pay attention, then turn around and say she should have known. Its just a scary precedent that has fuzzy lines. Idk about this one I have mixed feelings. 😕 I dont think this was "reasonably foreseeable" tbh. No Mom thinks their chid, with no known history of hurting ppl would do just that. This is a hard one......
Well, if your neighbor's child takes a baseball bat to your vehicle, who is liable for the damage? The parents. The Crumbleys chose to have lethal weapons in their home along with a gun safe to which her mentally unstable 15 year old son had the combination. Failure to properly secure the gun was gross negligence which resulted in the deaths of four children. It's not a tough equation.
I wasn't even allowed to get my ears pierced or date until a certain age. I wasn't permitted to cuss. My parents were attentive and active in my upbringing. Did I like it all the time at that age, no. Did I respect my parents, yes. My parents had expectations and rules. And they enforced them. Why, because they were good parents who knew that children do not have the mental or emotional ability to make adult decisions yet and they were responsible for raising good children, the children that they brought into this world. Did I fight depression as a teen, you bet. Did my parents put me into therapy, you better believe it. They always put their children's NEEDS above their own. Did we get everything we wanted, not even close. We're we always provided with everything that we needed.... absolutely!!!!!
Taking a teen to a gun range is grossly negligent for a parent to do. Buying a gun for a teen is grossly negligent. Ignoring a child's plea for help is grossly negligent. These parents 100% need to be held fully accountable for being bad parents. They absolutely could have prevented their child from becoming a murderer.
Overall, I believe wholeheartedly that there is an epidemic that were all facing because parents are being extremely neglectful when it comes to parenting. You can't be selfish, you can't even be indifferent as a parent. Either choose to dedicate your life to the children that you have or choose not to have children. It's the hardest job on the planet and shouldn't be taken lightly. There are way too many children not being raised right these days. Clearly, this is an example to all parents of the consequences of what can happen if they fail. Common sense needs to be more common.
It was not a joke. They are not joking kind of people. The parents thought it was funny but their son didn’t think it was.
I didn’t realize just how many cries for help were ignored by these inhuman parents.
Honestly, the school never thought that Ethan would’ve done what he did. I do not believe that the teachers were forced to keep Ethan at school. I believe they had no idea he was going to do what he was going to do. If a school tells you that your kid has to go home, they have no choice but to take the child home.no parent can talk a principal or counselor into making their child stay at the school if the school feels the child is a threat
The bottom line rests with the parents.
@@janetpartyka5968they thought he was a threat to himself. They felt he was safer at school than home alone. Schools can't force parents to take their kids.
The school can force the parents to remove the child. The school should have searched Ethan. All the adults failed Ethan and the kids he killed.
I work at a school & have actually had parents refuse to pick their child up until the end of the school day. Our option is to call children’s protective services.
I’ve never seen the opposite party interrupt a closing argument.
Smith is going to cry that she doesn't have such a great PowerPoint as the prosecution
Excellent closing arguments. Hope Jennifer Crumbley spend the rest of her life in jail
Feel like male prosecution should have delivered
She objected during closing arguments? What a ‘Karen!’
This is also why I’m a proponent of being pro choice. I’m sorry, but I don’t think people should have kids if they don’t want to be parents.
The world would have been a better place if Ethan were never born into a life where his parents didn’t care. There was no god looking out for him or his victims, so it would have been better for him to have just not existed if he wasn’t going to get a fair chance at life anyways and he’d take four more kids with him.
Not every parent loves their children. This is a fact. If you’re pregnant and you’re already questioning whether you want your kids and want to be a parent, the best thing might be to just stop someone being born into a situation, against their “free will”, where they aren’t going to get a chance.
Sorry, but this is where reality over rides what you think morality is
There are plenty of people ready to adopt the baby, as a blessing to family.
@@cocosurgerow really… how much does it cost to adopt a baby? And how have our Christian leaders fought to ensure people’s wages have tracked with cost of living to ensure people can support families ?
And also, upwards to 40% of foster kids face some form of abuse so your god fails in protecting them.
If people want to give their kids up for adoption then great, but it’s a woman’s choice to decide if she’s ready and able to have a kid. If not, don’t bring them into a world that doesn’t care for them and has no social safety net to protect them.
Conservative Christians don’t even support raising the social safety net of the state to help underprivileged kids. They don’t even support laws to help pay for poor kids school lunches.
@@cocosurgerowthere are already enough unwanted uncared for kids here already. Adopt one of them.
@@cocosurgerowhow many have you fostered or adopted?
Heres the thing. A reasonable parent when presented with this news leaves work, takes him to an ER or mental health crisis center that day. Thats what you do. I've had it happen to me when suicidal over a decade ago. When your minor child is doing things like that on homework, its a cry for help. He was trying. I almost feel bad for the kid who obviously was struggling with mental illness .
And let me tell you, my parents were abusive narcissists. And they still took me to get help more than this mother.
"I need my job. Please don't judge me based on what my son did." That is cold af. Wow. That is a mother that checked out a long time ago.
I feel bad for Ethan, just as much as the victims and victim's families. I want to feel bad for Jennifer too, but this kind of reminds me of having my own mental health issues and being isolated a lot in school, bullied a lot and feeling like you're alone against the world at such a young age. It's terrifying. My parents did a lot for me, like I came from a loving home, they worked a lot.. But cause of my circumstance in school, I wanted to die when I was like 11 years old, there was days I'd be walking to school hoping I'd get abducted. And whenever I would try talking about being depressed and how I was thinking about suicide all the time, and my parents would make be feel worse by guilt tripping me like "We do so much for you, bla blah".. Then mean while at school, I felt like a lab rat. Then when I'd come home, it's like all my problems would just disappear. Unless the principal phoned my mom and told her about something I did, which he did a lot cause he was picking on me, I'd get in trouble at home. But I had no one to talk to. I'd get made fun of for being "special", stick up for myself and get in trouble cause the bully played hockey on my principal's son's team. So seeing Jennifer laying in the grave that she dug for herself is quite satisfying. As much as I have tried feeling bad for her too, I just can't. She was completely negligent of her son's well being. Now she gets to think long and hard about how and why she came to lose everything, as she said.
I don’t feel bad for somebody that murdered innocent people especially when they said take out a pretty girl with a future on their hit list I do feel bad that he didn’t receive the help he needed, but I do not feel bad for him after the crime he committed.
They had money to buy him a gun but no money for mental health
They also took Xanax, so obviously they were seeing doctors
This case will set a precedent. I wouldn’t be surprised if the drug manufacturers who load these shooters up on SSRIs will eventually be held accountable too.
Manufacturers don't load anyone on drugs...
I have my suspicions that the reason for some of Ethan’s disorientation on some occasions was that Mom was giving him Xanax, not Melatonin as she claimed. She lied about a number of things that contradicted the evidence. 🥺
Decent closing by prosecution. Review of key witnesses with photos is really effective.
Her rambling incoherently is effective?
@@jshuffieldThat was the defense attorney in her closing 😂
Jose Baez did a similar style of closing which appeared to really help with the winning of the case. It was brilliantly executed at the time.
The closing arguments sound like the defendant killed the students. The mother did not kill the students, the sob did. The mother is not responsible!
@@DaNewfYes, Shannon Smith rambled a lot of incoherent nonsense like Lauren Boebert or Marjorie Taylor Greene. She twisted the facts and turned the proceedings into a clown show just like they do. 😱👎🏽😵💫
I give more credit to Ethan than ill ever give Jennifer. He had severe mental health and multiple people failed him for inadequate Support. He stood up accepting sole Responsibility and saved Victims from a traumatic trial. He deserved better so do his Victims but who knows maybe with help or different Environment, maybe he wouldn't have committed these crime's!!
I am in no way looking to get slammed here, but I work in a public school with many kids on the spectrum. After watching this defense attorney, I feel as though she might on the spectrum as well and if so that would explain her outbursts and oddly planned emotions. No judgements, just sayin'
She’s emotional and odd, that’s for sure.
Something is going on with her. After listening to her make the closing arguments largely about herself I was thinking perhaps Narcissistic Personality Disorder, but who knows?
It would not surprise me if she gets off with maybe probation, I sincerely hope I am wrong.
Are there mandatory sentences in this state?
She's SO GUILTY.
I hope she gets the max.
Agreed.
I feel like this case opens the door for all parents all across our nation being prosecuted. I wish we were hearing experts telling parents how this tragedy could've been avoided. I wish we were hearing how parents could better recognize and address mental health issues for themselves as well as their children before they get to these extremes. I wish this tragedy had been recognized by someone... anyone before it happened and none of the victims or their friends and family had endured this horrific tragedy. God bless all involved 10 fold. Heartbreaking.
This is not Dr. Phil.
Right if she is convicted of manslaughter, will they now go back with all cases and try and get parents prosecuted? It’s a slippery slope.
So easy to throw stones.
@@glee_again2594hopefully
No it doesn’t.🙄
Parents don't buy ur kids guns it's ILLEGAL pretty easy to understand to me.
It's possible to feel bad for the victims and ALSO think Jennifer shouldn't be criminally charged all at the same time. Just saying. I watched every day of this trial and its just not "reasonablly foreseeable" to me imo.
Plus, Karen Mcdonald obviously is all about politics thats why she sent the media on a manhunt for the parents knowing full-well they were turning themsleves in, in the morning. If you watch the press conference she gave once charges were given, a reporter asks her about that and she even dodges their question. 🤨
Sean Hopkins never told his mother about other concerns from teachers earlier in the term. He should have made him empty his backpack. He should have insisted he go home for rest of the day. He did not insist he leave the school
I don't think you have all the facts.
@@LaddieCladInKilt I watched all of his testimony and all of her testimony. They dropped the ball.
@@kathyeyesopen4078 So, is so good to know that we finally have found the expert on this case. Thanks for clueing us in.
Why didn't the parents check the back pack? According to the guidelines the school had no cause to check it.
They dropped the ball. That's true.
But the school didn't have all the facts that the parents did. Like that Ethan was hallucinating. Or that there were unsecured firearms and ammo in the home.
The only issue is that they did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was any evidence that her son would harm others. He has no documented public history of violence. His despicable acts were done in secret, only disclosed to his BF, and his parents were unfortunately in the dark. And yes, they were negligent, as are many other parents that have no clue what their kids are up to.
Didn't realize the mom hid the bullets as well. Defense really dropped the ball this case
Then you must hold OXFORD school system in Michigan accountable too because they didn’t check his backpack or keep him in the office when they recovered disturbing drawings from him that morning. Don’t be a hypocrite and act like you care about justice
Ethan begged for help and nobody was there for him. He wanted attention and thought this was the way to get it. 😔 Jennifer should definitely get prison time.
“Reasonably foreseeable “- why didn’t the SCHOOL see this??? They spent all the time with this boy… but no one at the school foresaw this either…
The school didn't know he owned a gun. The school didn't know about his depression and schizophrenia. The school didn't know about him harming animals. His parents knew about all of that.
@@vjc1902I don’t think Ethan was diagnosed with Schizophrenia. Also the school knew he had access to a gun.
They should definitely sue the school, but the school didn't buy the murder weapon so they're not criminally liable
@@logicrealitytruth he wasn't diagnosed with schizophrenia but his parents knew he was hearing voices in his head.
Shawn Hopkins is just as responsible
Excellent closing‼️
If my kid was having thoughts like this I would hope they would make it this painstakingly obvious to me what they needed, I would feel lucky to have all these signs so I could help
Guilty.
How would you explain her statement that she'd, "rather die than go to jail," other than a clear understanding of her own part in her son's crimes and the fact that her behavior reached a criminal level. And she knew it even before the prosecutors. I believe the correct verdict was reached.
Throughout the trial, as I looked more closely at the original math worksheet drawing, it finally dawned on me that the dead body isn't a drawing of a person who took his own life. It really looks like the figure is face down, with wounds through the chest (heart) and lower abdomen. It was good to hear that Shawn Hopkins didn't buy the video game design excuse, given what was written on the paper, but probed deeper. Unfortunately, he drew the conclusion of suicidal ideation, but the reality the words were pointing to was right there in that drawing, sad to say.
It was also interesting to hear Mr. Ejak say that if the parents had mentioned the Sig, the response of the school team would have been very different, including calling in the liaison officer. He outlined a clear hierarchy of steps, and how and when those in charge can take them.
I have to agree with Shannon in one respect: school was a very different thing in my day, and a drawing like that would have set off all kinds of alarms, while in this case, nothing rose to the level of needing discipline, given what the parents didn't tell the officials they met with. Despite the Crumbleys private texts to each other about the drawing when they first got it on their phones/email, which showed alarm, they didn't share that alarm with the school officials, and didn't act on their own alarm by taking him home and getting him help ASAP, which can in fact be done. My sister did it for my nephew when he began to express thoughts of suicide: she took him right then and there to the ER of the local hospital, and the medical professionals took it from there. He needed help, and he got it immediately. She lives in the same part of the Country, in Oakland County, MI - so immediate intervention can, and should have been, obtained.
This is squarely on the parents, and I hope the jury sees it, despite all the efforts of the defense to exclude exhibits and testimony that give the whole tragic picture of a chaotic, dysfunctional home environment.
One other aspect is the whole question about keeping the Sig in "the" gun safe. The ATF agent said that the Sig was too large to fit in the gun safe that had the combination lock on it, even if the other 2 guns weren't already being stored in it. He said there were holes in the Sig case where a lock could have been supplied, maybe like a padlock, or by using the cable lock on the case rather than on the slide of the gun. As for the cable lock, it was in its original package with its 2 keys still present, in the same condition as when it was sold with the Sig, and looks like it was never opened. Was the gun accessible? Clearly, because the shooter got hold of it and carried out his plan. Did the investigators find evidence that he had forced the case open, or broken a lock? No. The combination being set to 000 on the locking gun safe shows Mr. C's general carelessness in storing the Derringer and the Kaltech, but that isn't the main point here about the Sig, which could only be stored in its own, unlocking, and unlocked, case. Additionally, we know for a fact that Mr. C. left unsecured guns lying around, which the shooter mentioned to his friend in the video he sent him when he found and then, "why not", played around with the Kaltech.
The poor victims and their families😢❤🙏
Defense attorney Smith *repeatedly* interrupting? Sit down! You’ll get your turn…
I think she's so desperate to draw focus to herself that she's willing to make an even bigger ass of herself than she already has.
They just found her guilty!
Hopefully this will set a precedent. And let it ring to every parent that buys their child a gun: YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR CHILD’S ACTIONS. Parents make kids like this, he wasn’t born this way, he was created. Who else should be held responsible for that creation? I wonder what the pro lifers have to say on that.
💯
I fear our country has become so distorted and desensitized to children being murdered in schools where they are legally required to be and separated from their parents, that people think parents shouldn't have any say in their kid's lives and therefore no responsibility for their kids.
Point being? Poor parent buy their underage child a deadly weapon, help train him, and from then are not responsible. Bullshit!
Work was more important than the responsibility than helping their troubled child that had asked for help She laugh when he asked for help, just joke to her. Her finger was on the trigger along with his, she is guilty.
If you do not want to be responsible for your child use a condom and do not expect other to your parenting duties.
Parents bare responsibility. They failed the standard of ordinary care, and they are liable. The school is also guilty. They should have searched his backpack. Going home under suspension should not have been their choice. He should have had law enforcement come to talk to him and demanded the parents seek some therapy before he be allowed back in school. This case may change school law. Parents & students are suing. Poor decisions lead to the death of four innocent kids. Shame people! Mean non caring people create little mean non caring people.
@@DaNewf- 🐻 😅
@@DaNewf”Bear” is the correct spelling in this case referring to bearing the responsibility. Words can have more than one meaning. “Bare” in this case would be incorrect.
In America, parents have everything to say about their children, it's their constitutional right. I don't know what are you talking about.
Karen is so UNLIKABLE 😮
GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS
In order for the prosecution to meet this burden of proof, they’d have to prove this was foreseeable, which it was not! Not by mom, dad, school counselor, disciplinarian or by the principal.
They keep saying, “They told her to” but she didn’t get this young man help but they told her THAT day. They told her they were concerned he had suicidal or hopeless feelings - not to be confused with homicidal feelings. The shooting happened immediately thereafter.
Yes, his grandmother died. Yes, his friend moved away but his grades didn’t plummet. He continued to work and to attend school. Where were the outward signs?
He spent a lot of time with his parents. She did check in on him and her husband. She also was supporting a home financially and yes, caring for horses.
Moreover, and because the disciplinarian brought this to light - the community of kids had guns. They came to school on Wednesdays after hunting. They took prom photos holding their guns. You cannot make this kid having a gun that like those other kids, his parents bought - the very reason he did this.
This kid was going to do this be it that day or a day years from now.
The mom is right - presented with the same things, she and most would still do the same because what she never saw coming was a mass homicide.
You don’t have to like her or her morality but neither she nor dad had a foreseeable inkling this would happen.
I agree. No Mom would reasonably forsee her child doing an act like this. I can't get down with it. But everytime i say that, I get attacked by ppl saying "She should have known."
Okay. She dropped the ball as a Mom but I don't think she could have stopped this by taking him home for the day. Imagine if she did take him home and the next day he went and did this? Then everyone would just move the goal post and say she should have kept him home.
Its frustrating trying to get my point across bc ppl assume I don't care about the victims and that's not the case.
It's possible for me to feel bad for them and also think Jennifer shouldn't be criminally charged at the same time. Two things can be true.
@@TeaSpiracy- Agree!
@sythmc8600 - Agreed
Thank straight logic!! Something other than me hearing “Burn The Witch!!, she didn’t drown”
The prosecutor specifically says at the beginning of her closing that the event does not have to be foreseeable to find her guilty.
This was a really rough Closing to sit through. She doesn't seem like a very confident litigator. Thankfully, the case was very well managed.
I gotta say McDonald’s closing is weak. She spent so much time on the shooters training and that it was mom always taking him to the range. That’s factually what leads to responsible gun ownership and lowers the probability of mistakes significantly. It didn’t in this case but that isn’t the point. Trying to show the mother in a bad light by taking him to the range just isn’t irresponsible of gun owners. There are many things to critique but that is just ignorance and the prosecutions own biases toward gun ownership more than anything. The defense though was just awful. As a psychotherapist it would be called counter transference when a clinician shows too much bias and poor boundaries with a patient and this defense attorney really has poor boundaries that offered a very poor defense and actually caused more harm than good. This is a landmark case though and McDonald seems more bent on her own political motives than anything else. The number of young kids killing other kids has gone up dramatically and parental manslaughter charges are not even on the table even after these charges occurred in 2021.
What y’all’s opinion on the matter doesn’t matter. The fact that the prosecutor has the burden of proof. Which means they have to prove WITHOUT A REASONABLE DOUBT. They have not proved that she actually knew that he was gonna go into the school with a gun
She may get convicted, but the prosecution looks like they may be in trouble. How come no other parents have been charged with all of the school shootings across the country? Kids seem to obtain guns if they are planning to do these acts. They get them from home.
@@January. wrong
@@brianhollon178*What ya'all's opinion is on the matter doesn't matter.
Which kindergarten did you graduate from.
@@January. What?
@@richrenii name some cases, I'm a trial watcher.
She will be getting 60 years in prison while her husband will be getting 60 years in prison too.
Everyone failed Ethan! School, parents and the state of michigan! When a cry for help is bluntly heard and ignored, breaks my heart for ethan and those kids! I'm sorry ethan ur mother and father didn't show u the love u needed. I'm sorry the school left u with no friends. I'm sorry for every event that happend in this case!
The prosecutor is terrible and should have been fired for the APB alert she issued..
Prosecutor failed
This judge looks completely checked out.
Agree!! She looks board as f
I'm sorry Scott but it's not a civil matter. Even if the Crumbleys had any money, how would suing them replaced the loss of a loved one?
What you are suggesting is that everybody with money should have a free license to kill as long as they can afford to pay off a lawsuit. You're not thinking straight.
As far as I'm concerned, people who provide firearms to minors should be held liable when their kid harms somebody, just as much as a person has held liable for felony murder even if they were just the getaway driver.
Prosecutions case. If she floats she’s a witch If she doesn’t float Not a witch.
Sane logic huh??
Who would be allowed to use a section 12 in a school. Would the school be overstepping by using a section 12 on a student? If parents are allowed to use a section or section 12 to get access to the help the student needs what has all been avoided? Emergency restraint and hospitalization of persons posing risk of serious harm by reason of mental illness. Section 12. Massachusetts law... Just trying to know does Michigan have a section 12?
I've lived in Michigan my entire 52 years of life and never heard of it. Not saying it doesn't exist I don't know every law and procedure but I've never heard the section 12 term in my life and neither has anyone else I know. Could you explain what section 12 is ?
I expect my child to come home after a day of school. Low bar to expect from the school system, but here we are.
I wish they would show Jennifer.
i asked heather why is she talking to me like she my MOMMA.. Sitting there with information about people needing or feeling to address me but never making around to the Accusations just stringing me along
Guilty. No doubt
she is so guilty they jury will see through her some have kids.🤢
I wanna see Ethan trial. Cuz after all of this he has to get guilty due to mental health. He had serious mental health issue and had nobody to help him.. it's hard to feel bad for him after doing such a horrific thing but at the same time u wonder if it would've happened had his parents cared and listened to him.. so u do feel bad for him in a sense
@DaNewf guilty by insanity is clearly what I meant. It changes everything when it comes to where he will end up. And all the crazy texts and him hearing voices and asking for phsych help, it's totally possible that will be his defense
He didn't have a trial 🙄
I can’t think why she wouldn’t want to give her phone over to the state could it be they would overreach their authority and try to send them to prison