In 1992 I came across the master tapes of "Ye-s-Close to the Edge" at a studio in Los Angeles. I put them on a machine and carefully rewound them very slowly to make sure there were no problems. There were several splices so i wanted to make sure they didn't break. It turned out to be the old European pink Agfa tape and played like a charm. So I got a reel of Ampex 456 and made myself a copy. (Bear in mind at this point the original masters were about 20 years old) I tried playing the copy about 5 years later and it was COMPLETELY gummy. I'll bet those Agfa originals still play just fine.
I'm sure they would, Ken. Sometimes, you can be pleasantly surprised: I recently volunteered to transfer an archive of recordings from the late 1980s / early 1990s, and was fearing the worst. But it turned out that all the recordings were on 1/4" Maxell UD tape, and that they were in perfect, as-new condition! It was quite a relief after dealing with my own archive, which consists almost entirely of sticky-shedding Ampex tapes. So you win some, you lose some!
Thanks for the feedback! There are in fact quite a few other videos on this subject on RUclips. A lot of people use food desiccators to do the job, but I didn't think they were available in the UK when I made this video, hence the oven. But a few months ago I found one on Amazon and bought it. It's a lot a lot less fiddly (once you've got the thermostat calibrated) - and I am now free to make my dinner at the same time as baking tapes!
I have several AMPEX manufactured cassettes from the 1970's and 1980's that suffer from this. It's only the black tape, the brown tape still plays fine
Spool the tape off to an empty reel and test the reel on its own first to see if it behaves. Or spool tape onto a metal reel for baking. A food dehydrator is a safer solution (see various other comments and RUclips videos) but bear in mind that dehydrators tend to have a large diameter central boss, so they only work with the large central hole of a NAB reel.
I would have cleaned and digitized the tape after the first baking. REVOX tapes were made by AMPEX or Maxell. You can only hear what's on the REVOX coils by the squeaking.
My mom bought an Ampex tape recorder in about 1965. I still have it and it plays but the brakes don't stop the tapes so my finger has to. She got a lot of Ampex tapes with it and they play fine. I transferred them to CD but these are 50+ year old tapes. I also have a couple of tapes made on my brother in laws R2R from back in 1958. That tape still works but is brittle. I have transferred it to CD too. Is it just later Ampex tapes that this squeal happens to? It doesn't much matter to me now as I only have one tape to transfer and I don't even know if I will do it.
Yes - Ampex tapes from the '80s and '90s seem to be the affected formulations. It was a quality control issue and when they were made aware of it (why did it take so long!), they revised (corrected) the formulation and fixed the problem.
That seems to be the case, but it is probably because the binder formulation error was in the 'professional' tapes which tended to be back-coated; in my experience, it is the coating on the oxide side that goes sticky, not the back-coating.
One quastion: This solusion is good if the tape is being rolled on a metal reel. But what if the tape is rolled on a plastic reel? Will the plastic reel survive the oven heat without melting? And if the plastic reel can reallt melt - how do we transfer the tape to a metal reel whithout using the tape recorder?
I have only done this on metal reels. Baking only takes place at between 50 and 60 degrees Celsius (if your oven behaves and you keep an eye on it). Certainly worth trying with a blank plastic reel first. I have moved on to using a food dessiccator, which unlike my kitchen oven is not designed to go to much higher temperatures. The dessiccator has plastic separator trays, which seem to survive OK. But as usual, do your own tests and bake at your own risk - good luck!
I assume you mean the water from humidity in the air. In my experience, after baking, the tapes are playable for a week or two. Tapes I had baked once and left for a few months needed baking again, which did work. I would recommend baking and then doing the highest possible quality digital transfer you can, so you don't need to play the tape again. I would not use baking as a strategy for doing new recording work on old sticky tape stock: if you do want to do new tape recording, I would advise buying new, good tape from the couple of manufacturers that still exist (but it's expensive!)
@@reqordist Hi my friend no actually what happened is that there were outside in garage but i hadn't realised part of the roof had caved in and the box I had my tapes in got filled with water
That is a different matter. 'Good' tape should not absorb water. If the make of tape is not one of those that suffer from sticky shed problem, they should be playable after allowing the spools to dry out very slowly. If there is a build-up of mould from the water immersion, it may still be possible to wash it, but there's no guarantee. Just make sure that the tape is dry before running it through your tape recorder. Good luck!
I can't hear the squeal. I'm hard of hearing, so the only way I can tell a tape has gone sticky is by the decrease in pitch of the info on the tape, due to the increase in drag.
How many shots would you normally get at transferring your material after a baking? I remember reading about how Wendy Carlos had to bake the Ampex masters for "Tron," but she only had one chance to do the transfer into ProTools because she had no idea whether the tape would stand a second try if the first transfer messed up.
Hi Larry - I could not say definitively. However, I have done several digitizing runs after baking to capture at different sample rates etc., and the tape seems OK to me. My personal take on it is that if there's no oxide coming off on the heads and guides after baking, then it must still be on the tape. A tape deck with properly demagnetized heads and transport should not affect the signal on a tape to any noticeable extent (or multi-track recording would have been impossible) And yes, I know tapes will eventually wear out, but I reckon that needs hundreds of passes on a well set-up transport. As the moisture returns to the tape after a while (weeks? months?) I wouldn't recommend it as a way to use old sticky tapes on new projects, in case you were tempted! I revisited a tape some 2 years after I had first baked it, and it had gone sticky again, so I had to re-bake it to make it playable. that seemsd fine, but I have no idea how many times a tape can be re-baked before it degrades noticeably. Please bear in mind that this is what I have done with my own tapes (which are all Ampex except for one Scotch tape), where they only have value to me, and I make my own judgement as to the risk; your tapes may be different in formulation and react differently to baking, and may well have much greater value to you, so it's important to try it out with a non-critical tape of the same formulation (if you have one) first, or consult a professional who bakes tapes commercially and has experience of many different tape types. BTW I do mention in the description that I now use a food dehydrator instead of the oven - a technique that seems to be well established by others. It still needs calibration and monitoring, but it seems more controllable (and is more compatible with home cooking..)
Hmm... tricky one. Firstly, how do you know they have sticky shed if they're on pancakes and have not been spooled? Assuming that they are sticky, my inclination would be to bake them as-is without attempting any winding operation beforehand, as the action of winding can rip oxide off the tape at points where the stickiness acts as a glue. If you absolutely must wind them on a tape machine, I would arrange for the tape to pass from reel to reel without going through the head/guide path. This may involve holding up the guide/levers by hand to enable the motors. And the slower the better! Good luck!
Please,can you tell me what does it mean 8 track/8 channel ?.What kind of tape is used and how the tape recording is performed ?. Also what amplifier should be used and how many speakers, to listen to 8 channels ?. Thank you very much.
Hi Romeo. That was not the subject of this video - it was about overcoming a probem with the tape formulation. If you want to know about using the Tascam 38, start here: ruclips.net/video/M4HCEw0sSr4/видео.html HTH
Hi this is a great vid, I have loads of tapes I have to do. Can you tell what the cable you used to measure the temperature. And also do you bring the tapes up to temperature or put them in at heat.
Hi, I have a couple of commercial pre-recorded classical tapes that have serious tape squeak when playing. There does not seem to be any real evidence of sticky shred, surfaces seem dry. Any ideas how to solve the problem as I do not think that baking is the solution. I did hear that putting some sort of silicon coating on the tape surface may work. Have you any experience with that sort of solution.
There is a lubrication technique (which I have not used), and that may be more applicable to other brands/vintages of tapes that are not suffering from different degradation mechanisms from the classic Ampex '80s - '90s sticky shed syndrome. Personally I don't like putting 'goo' onto my tapes and/or tape decks, but if it's a critical transfer of irreplaceable material, maybe it's worth the risk. Some people may offer this sort of tape treatment as a paid service. Most pre-recorded tapes are simply not worth transferring, as the quality is poor; many such recordings will have been re-mastered from source tapes and re-released on CD anyway - it's worth researching that first, before taking any drastic action with your tapes!
that was my first thought, have a look at that curtain rale lube thats non stick, no dust or stain etc etc. they use it on valuable fabrics, might be worth investigating
In my experience, there can be a slight smell. But you should only be driving off water, not causing the tape to break down chemically - which would damage it anyway. 55 deg C is not very hot. But it's always best to work in a properly ventilated room, though.
@@reqordist Excellent. I used to own an analog studio in 1979 in Hollywood, Ca. Those were the days. I'm looking for a nice machine to bounce stems to and back. :) Tod
And interestingly that after messing up their tapes (and our recordings) Ampex went ahead and patented the baking process: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampex#Sticky-shed_syndrome. My BASF tapes are still like new, 30 years later
Yes, a most odd approach. Maybe it was to establish the 'official' way of drying out their faulty tapes. I presume someone offering baking as a commercial venture would have to licence the process. But I reckon most people devise their own DIY scheme just to deal with their own tapes, do a digital capture and draw a line under the whole sorry episode. BTW I use a food desiccator now (like seemingly everyone else) as it's much more convenient and there's less risk of overheating the tape!
I've had this also with Shamrock tapes. Tape wasn't even used at all - long storage. I Was surprised - it was so advanced that tape wouldn't unwind at all - magnetic layer when unwinded by force was detached . . .After I did such bake drying. It helped instantly - could unwind and record but after months whistling happened again. Two reel melted by temperature. So I decided it's too much job and developed my way - only condition is that tape is easy to unwind so first for those very bad is is to bake them. . I unwinded parts of tape loose to plastic container - rather not big one - mine was about 4 liters. Then this mess I dried with hair dryier untill the smell was sagnificantly less and tape got foldown, - usualy about 5 minutes, then wind it up to next reel and repeat with next part - for whole 7" reel it takes about 4 repeatitions. With beeing carefull not to definitely mix tape it is quite easy to regain it from mess. Take care to use not hot by hand but warm blow - some polyesters are vournerable for temerature. Having reel tape recorder it is convinient to use it for winding job in "play" mode with coupled reel. . It takes about 1 hour of job.This way I got permanent removal of sticky shred. I have also 3 Ampex which shown magnetic layer detachement - and after this drying it is so far stabil. I did this to few of my 26 pieces of Scotch which were showing signs of slow winding and it hepled too. All is working fine and because I am happy to see turning reels I am not willing to make digital copies.
Looking on the Internet, it seems that Shamrock tapes were made by Ampex, which may explain the sticky shed problem. If the plastic reels had melted, that would suggest a temperature much higher than the 55degC recommended, but as I have only baked tapes on metal reels, I couldn't say what temperature plastic reels will actually melt at. The reels you show on videos of your modified B115 tape deck look like actual 8mm movie reels (with sprung radial arms), and they may be quite a soft plastic. Glad to hear you've had good results, but I suspect they will get sticky again with time!
Anything may happen. But up to my observations it depends also on humidity around. And my is low. With tapes which were very bad as 3 pcs of my Shamrock it is not reliable - they already suffer from weak contact of magnetic layer with polyester so deck needs often to be cleaned and it is not pleasant but they are exceptional for sounding - better than CDs. Some Shamrock never had any problems -seem trusty and also good sounding. Shamrocks was my experience 5 years ago Today I do not expect anything like that with Scotch which is made in Italy and in perfect condition. Generaly I dry tapes even other makers. in case when winding speed is not normal or they are dirty before cleaning them more while they do not show typical sticky syndrome. I regained some tapes from pretty bad state not to play them but to record which is higher requirement. My casettes were in high humidity for more than 10 years, some chrome got even something like surface fungus and it is nonreperable. Strange but cheapest Fe are in primary shape for already 25 and more years. They are recorded in analog and sound marvelous. . PS reels which are in my clips are ORWO -old East German production very usefull for it's good design.And those unlucky were original Shamrocks which waited for me too long utill I finish my phone call:). Surprizingly tape wasn't hurt but I cant tell exact temperature they survived. .
I've found half an hour baking will give you around the same playability(2years),be warned,however that when re-recording the tape will not record like a new tape and will suffer drop outs(AMPEX)...AGFA,BASF are way better tape and don't suffer this problem and will give you more signal to noise thatn AMPEX,although sourcing it is difficult these days(AGFA 468,BASF 911)
that really depends how sticky the tape is, how long it layd still, and in what conditions. I have some ampex 1/2'' tapes, i tried baking them for 4,5 hours, at 55 degrees in a food dehydrator, and were still sticky. i had to bake them again for 24 hours, only then they were playable again
If in doubt, test! 50degC wouldn't normally damage plastic reels, but I would advise you to exercise extreme caution. One approach would be to spool off the tape onto a spare reel (if the stickiness allows you to do that - see if you can bypass the record/playback heads - on some tape decks you can do that by routing the tape directly from supply spool to takeup spool via just the right-hand tension arm), and test-bake the empty plastic reel. If your plastic reels are not up to it, you could get one metal spool and transfer the offending tape to it for baking (again assuming it will spool cleanly as mentioned above.) In practice, the Ampex tape that I've owned and needed to bake has always been on metal reels. But note that 10 1/2" metal reels actually consist of two metal flange plates with a centre hub made of plastic. That hub plastic material is quite hard and seems different from that used in all-plastic reels, but I couldn't say what the difference is. At the end of the day, it's your tape and your decision to bake or not to bake. Be careful and good luck!
More so that I can get rid of my original tapes (none of earth-shattering importance!), and can deal with affected tapes that people bring me to transfer. I'm keeping this and all my other tape decks for the time being. BTW I have now bought a food desiccator (see lots of other videos on RUclips), which does the tape baking job without tying up my oven.
The low temperatures involved in baking (55 deg C) would not remove the recorded sound. Most likely the tape was blank beforehand or damaged by truly excessive heat. If the former, they could be re-used for further recording (but not recommended as they will go sticky again within a few weeks); if the latter, the tape base may have been damaged anyway.
Can you tell by looking at the tape. I would have go to a studio to transfer them. How long does it take for this issue to appear? My tapes are from about 91 to 93.
Hi - You won't tell just from looking at it, I'm afraid. But within a few seconds of running it through a tape transport, you will know; you don't have to be listening to what's on the tape, so track layout is not an issue initially, as long as it will handle your tape width and spool size. If it drags and becomes squeaky, then you'll have to deal with it. If your tapes are Ampex, they were using the dodgy binder formulation around the time you mention. Don't forget to clean your tape transport after running sticky tape through it - the usual cotton buds / isopropyl alcohol method should do the trick!
I would recommend baking tapes only shortly before doing a transfer, and then only if necessary. Baking is not a long-term fix, as the water vapour will return after a few weeks, so there's no benefit in baking if you're not intending to transfer at that time. And although it would probably not harm good tapes, there's no reason to subject them to abnormal temperatures unnecessarily. I recommend you contact a local studio who will almost certainly be able to check out your tapes. You may be lucky - some formulations have remained perfect and playable after 50 or more years!
i almost ruined my teac motor by running those sticky fucking back coated sss tapes!! lucky they work again but i smeeled some burned smell dont know if affected the motor really but s working fine with my old ferrite tapes
I've been using a dehydrator sold on Amazon, which they advertise as "Rosewill Countertop Portable Electric Machine Food Fruit Dehydrator." It's $40, and it fits both 7" and 10.5" reels with no modifications at all. It will also hold 1/2 inch audio tapes, VHS and Betas, and of course cassettes. I set it to 60 degrees C, load the tapes in it, and leave it alone for 24 hours. Works great. Comes with five see-through trays. It's like it was made for the purpose. And yes, it uses forced air ventilation. redbankvintageaudio.com.
Hi Scott. Sounds identical to the one I'm currently using - these all must be generic models re-branded by different importers. My experience is the same as yours - it works very well and is less risky than using a conventional oven. Haven't had to use it on video tapes or cassettes to date, though. I've found 4-5 hours does the job for me, even with 1/2" tapes - did you experiment with different durations before deciding on 24 hours?
SCot--I will buy the unit as you suggest as I do xfers for clients and need a fix...baking just does not seem right for my clients precious items (is this the one? www.amazon.com/dp/B018UR4XJI?tag=amz-mkt-chr-us-20&ascsubtag=1ba00-01000-org00-win10-other-nomod-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-wm-5&ref=aa_scomp
Have a trawl around the web. Most experts vaguely suggest several times, but I cannot verify that. However, I have baked some tapes twice with no noticeable degradation. Most people would aim do the baking exercise just once, capturing to digital at the very best possible sample rate and resolution. I see no point in baking sticky tapes for everyday recording use - better to buy tapes with a new 'non-sticky' formulation!
Reel to Reel tapes should be Double-Coated. Both sides of the tape should be glossy then you do not have any problem. Unfortunately AMPEX and Quantegy are not Double-Coated and that is why they get sticky and the capstan and the rubber pinch roller gets sticky. The best one is MAXELL and 3M Scotch ; maybe there are others.
Interesting. I had not come across the concept of 'double-coating'. The mechanism for stickiness is now well understood and described in the literature, and is related to the hygroscopic nature of the particular plastic formulation used to bind the oxide to the substrate. In my experience, a glossy finish to the non-oxide (back) side of the tape is an indication that it has _not_ been back-coated; back-coated tapes generally have a matt finish. On the oxide side, tapes may have a matt finish (often older tapes) or a shiny finish (especially highly calendered tapes such as Maxell, often the thinner long-play variants). I believe that both the back-coating and the recording (oxide/binder) surfaces can become sticky, and that the underlying polymer chemistry, not surface smoothness, is the determining factor for stickiness. Regarding 3M tape, I have recently had to deal with some back-coated 3M material, and that was very sticky, just like Ampex. Forunately it responded well to baking.
Back coated or not coated I do not understand technically. One thing I know from my experience that outside of the tape should be GLOSSY. The Cassette tapes do not have sticking problem because the back of the tapes are GLOSSY. Thank you, Krikor Vasken from L. A. CA.
Hi Henry - glad you found the video useful. I've found most splices quite stable if purpose-made splicing tape was used. It gets messy where inexperienced people have used regular adhesive tape (sellotape etc.) - but in my experience, that just dries out and goes brittle with time, so the splices just fall apart; leaving the recording tape undamaged. It can be irritating when a splice breaks in the middle of a rewind and you end up with loose tape all over the floor! But it's no trouble to re-do them with 'proper' splicing tape.
That's quite concerning - I had always thought that sticky-shed symptoms only appeared after the binder had aged for several (10+?) years. If it had been noted in new tapes in the 1980s, that begs the question of why Ampex didn't address the issue immediately. It would be good to see an authoritative chronology of the sticky-shed phenomenon.
I dug out one of the boxes of what now seems rather obvious that this was 'really' cheap audio tape. Ampex 292 "Professional Audio Visual Recording Tape" Professional and Audio Visual in the same statement seems like a oxymoron. 1.0 Mil Polyester 1/4" tape (549m) x 7" (17.78 cm) Reel. It's very possible this was not meant to be used on machines with tape pressure pads as in an old Wollensak 1500 or T1515. machine.
Not a tape formulation I had heard of, but it does feature in a massive list of Ampex tapes posted on the Gearslutz forum (google it!). I hadn't realised they had made so many tape products. There seem to be a lot of NOS 292s on eBay at the moment - I wonder whether someone has stumbled on a container-load of them? Personally, I wouldn't even consider buying blank tape from any other source than the (two?) remaining active manufacturers!
I had to deal with hundreds of these evil ampex garbage, HUNDREDS! I was searching around on why its making sounds effects that could fit right at home with rats screaming inside of a miniture brazon bull, but its all got to do with the fact that the tapes are cheap??? And only the brown ones do fine??????? Too bad i cant do shit about it! God damn ampex and their "mastering audio tape" MORE LIKE MASTERING HEARING LOSS! I DIDNT KNOW AMERICA MADE A KNOCKOFFS OF BASF!
There is a lot easier way to find out if tape has SSS without gumming up your unit like he did with this TASCAM: Just pull the tape straight across the top of the headblock with holding up the trigger roller or arm and wind it straight across to the takeup reel. If the tape is sticking to itself as it's feeding off the roll and you rub the tape between the fingers and is sticky as crud, that tape is full of SSS and needs to be tossed. You don't need to bake non coated tapes and NEVER bake acetate based tapes, or the head destroys the acetate.
Hi Monte, I guess you didn't notice me ('he') saying I allowed this to run for a while quite deliberately for the purpose of demonstration; not for experienced tape users familiar with the problem (to whom it would have been apparent within the first few seconds), but for casual users who may be completely unaware of the phenomenon. In my experience, although some tapes are definitely sticky to the touch as you describe, others may not seem so gooey on first inspection, and only start to squeal some distance into the reel. While there is no point in baking sticky tape for making new recordings (new - stable - tape is still being manufactured, if you're desperate to do that), tapes that contain precious and irreplaceable material can't just be tossed out, so baking or other restorative action becomes necessary. I assume you meant 'heat' in your last paragraph. Will acetate break down at 60degC? Fortunately, I have never encountered sticky shed with that base material. Cheers!
@@reqordist ... Yes, heat. There has been some tapers that have baked acetate and wonder why it can't be played anymore. Sorry, I didn't have the volume up and only watched part of the video. I should know better. Thx and good luck.
As mentioned, the temperature controls on a kitchen oven are very crude. They are designed to cook things. I would consider this approach very risky. Maintaining a consistent, and consistently >>low
It has worked for me, but (as demonstrated) with constant supervision, and only after testing to verify the operation of the oven. I do make these precautions very clear in the video and covering text. I also mention in the text that I, in common with a large proportion of the tape-using community, have switched to the use of a food dessiccator, although that also needs verification before use and monitoring. What method do you use for your tapes?
I use a food dehydrator with quite precise temp settings. I've done many this way, and it's never failed. Interesting to hear that you can do it at all in a kitchen oven :) I've heard horror stories about tapes getting....(ahem) ....overdone. xD
so basically its just baking out the moisture, coudlnt you just chuck your tapes into a big plastic crate and chuck in a few moisture absorbers? and keep them in there or do what we used to do with photocopy paper and build a cupboard put a lightbulb inside.it and keep your tapes in there. the bulb boils off moisture in the air.
This video focuses on tapes that have already gone sticky, and it takes quite a high temperature (around 50 deg C) to drive off the moisture in a realistic timeframe, hence this procedure, whether using an oven as here, or a food desiccator. It's possible that a low-humidity storage environment may have lessened the uptake of moisture over the years. Unfortunately, users were advised by the manufacturers to store their tapes in a moderately cool envirnoment with a 'normal' ambient humidity Many people will have stored their master tapes away after initially releasing the material on LP or cassette, leaving them on the shelf for 10-15 years until a re-issue was required, at which point the horrible sticky truth dawned. You could create a low-humidity environment by putting a light bulb or other heating element in a suitably ventilated box, but temperature control would be essential to avoid other tape degradation mechanisms due to excessive temperatures, not to mention the potential fire hazard during unattended operation. In practice, custodians of major archival document/tape repositories implement very finely regulated temperature and humidity control, but this does come at the cost of constant power consumption and long-term equipment maintenance, which are probably outside the financial scope of the average recording enthusiast or small commercial studio. Fortunately for people who choose to record on analogue tape now, the current tape formulations have been designed to avoid sticky shed, so they should survive the next few decades with normal storage precautions as well as the best examples from 50 years ago.
hi i did some baking of tapes i had to bake 406 9 x 1 inch for 8 hours as they were very bad i was baking tapes for days you got to be carefull with the tape nabs on the 406 they can go funny i can tell you it works very well i tryed 2 hours this works it's to do with the space the tapes take up in the oven i baked 4 2 inch tapes for 2.5 hours as a test did not work after 5 hrs alot better
I may have commented on this subject on his channel once before so I hope I'm not being redundant but if you bake your tapes you will sorry. baking destroys the Fidelity of your precious recordings it's fine for dialogue but for sophisticated high-fidelity music we have found that it is not good at all. it will completely change the sound of you're recording. At least that was our experience with our two inch 24 track tapes that we had baked at three different locations. we suggest that you do some research on using Nu Finish the car wax in order to restore and rejuvenate your precious tapes. we tried it and it works
it was never really a 'pro' brand but consumer only .... BASF, Ampex, Scotch and a few others were the most respected -though the ampex obviously had unforeseen problems with it's chemistry
True - they made great cassette and 1/4" open reel tapes, and I had good results with them, but I can't recall them producing tape in open reel formats wider than 1/4", and if that was the case, it would not have been an option for studios using 1/2", 1" and 2" machines.
yes - i've NEVER seen TDK available in anything over 1/4" - either being sold new or else second hand ... and I've been using it and buying since the 80s ...
Totally agreed, if we talk about 1/4" tapes - TDK and Maxell are the best. Also, BASF and AGFA are not bad if properly stored over the years. AMPEX is junk. They were good when produced new back in 70's and 80's but over time they turned to junk...
I have a Tascam reel deck like this one. I wish I could try this. But, I'm a bit leery because I have a few hundred old radio commercials on 5" plastic reels, nothing on metal reels that you have. I don't imagine putting plastic in an oven at 130 F for any length of time is a very good idea, but if you don't think it'll melt the plastic, I'd love to try it.
Hi - as I have said in replies to several other comments, this is really a matter for your own experimentation, undertaken at your own risk. You could spool off tape onto a spare reel (if the tape is not too sticky to wind), and try the reel on its own to see how the plastic fares. Or just get one metal reel for baking purposes. If you are at all uncertain, I would recommend you take your tapes to a professional who has done this before. Please also note - as I mention in the video description - that I have moved on from using a domestic oven to a food dessiccator, which has a more controllable temperature range, and whose use for tape baking is described by others on RUclips.
hi i 100% one this to ampex 406 1 inch tapes 40 of them danger is the word some of the nab hubs don't like the heat and go funny i had to put spacers in some of the reel hubs because the hub dia has gone down and would not go no the recorder. i fixed the hub's on more thng have the windows open all the time. i did them all in the winter when baking soming comes out of the tapes into the air and can do your head in i had 8x 1 inch tapes in at a time thanks for the video it helped big time bob
Hi Bob - have not had hubs misbehave for me, but only 1/4" and 1/2" tapes here. Regarding volatile materials, I guess good ventilation is always a smart move when baking anything, but in my experience (mainly with 406 like your tapes) I have never smelled any real strong odour from the baking process. It must come down to tape formulation and reel components.
Sounds like you struck lucky and never used tape from manufacturers whose formulations suffered from sticky shed! Maxell tapes, as an example, still play perfectly - just a pity they didn't make the wider gauge tapes back in the 80s and 90s :-(
I bought a reel to reel for 20$ at a garage sale..it had been stored in a barn and I found some reels of tape in a second hand store. I was never able to get the speed to remainin stable for long...I've nearly trashed it trying to set the tensions...oops!! after seeing this I noticed my reels are plastic....Maybe microwave them?1!
Do not even think about microwaving tapes - it won't work and may cause a fire. Use only a fan-assisted electric oven or a food desiccator, suitably calibrated for temperature. Do a risk assessment based on your own equipment and location before baking the tapes. Don't bake on plastic reels - pick up a second-hand metal reel off ebay or a garage sale, spool your tapes onto it one by one, and bake them singly on the metal reel. Finally, it's always possible that the problem of speed variation may not be due to sticky shed, but the internal transport components of your old tape deck. If that's the case, baking the tape will not help. Playing a known 'non-sticky' tape will help rule out that possibility. Good luck!
oh my god...is it possibile to do it with home oven????!!!! i knew it was impossible and quite dangerous due to: 1) electromagnetic fields from electric oven (house ovens are not always well shelded) 2) no constant temperature control (but maybe can be obtained monitoring constantly the temperature) 3) the oxide vapours from the magnetic tape could fly and fix themself inside the oven and the next time you cook a chicken or a pizza you'll get an oxide flavour pizza that can seriously poison anyone would try to eat. never seen doing something at home :O (I remember one friend who tried years ago but used an old gas oven in the basement not used anymore in the kitchen....and the result was a total disaster due to the poor temperature control and feedback....he baked in the very good meaning of the word the poor old tape!)
Hi - it is, because you see me doing it in this video! Electromagnetic fields are not an issue: the heating elements and fan are all behind a perforated steel grille, and are unlikely to radiate any significant EM field. In fact, the food dehydrators favoured by many people (now including me) are almost all plastic-bodied and therefore unshielded. You see me constantly monitoring the temperature in this video. The oven's thermostat varies over a 10 degree range in operation, but the tapes on their reels will see an average value due to their comparatively high thermal mass. The 50 deg C temperature used here is quite low - near the lowest setting on the oven (not a 'proper' cooking temperature). While this is sufficient to drive off the troublesome water content, I believe it would have to get a lot hotter before other components of the tape started breaking down and liberating noxious fumes. I mention in the description that this should _never_ be done with a gas oven or anything with a naked flame! And gas produces water vapour as it burns, which is not what we want here! Anyone considering doing this procedure should be prepared to do some sample runs on non-critical material before committing their valuable tapes. It worked for me, but as they say, YMMV...
+reqordist well i've read much about the subject even in the past and here in my city there is also a place where we used to bring in the past 2'' old tapes to be burned for the transfer, when i was a teenager and one of my friend older than me was working as assistant in a big recording studio....I was really into this, even I had no personal tapes for baking because I always worked with HD rec since late ninenties and also when i've started my small recording studio. but I am really interested about the subject of vintage audio tapes, restoration and rescue of old audio material, this is really interesting.
Fortunately not all old tapes suffer from sticky shed syndrome! Going back through the archives can be a fascinating and rewarding exercise - I have been amazed at the quality of old recordings when they were made by engineers who knew how to work within the limitations of analogue tape. Enjoy your trip through musical history!
+reqordist yes yes...most 2'' that suffer about the sticky syndrome are from ampex and scotch made between 1976 and 1985, here in milan there were some studios with not a proper archive for tapes or maybe in past they didn't think about a good way to protect them...and as a consequence some old multitrack tapes and also 1/4 inch mastertapes mixes are gone forever...there was a studio near my home with an amazing italian vintage mixing desk from late 60s...and after the owner death was closed for more than 10 years...when I entered i saw a really incredible situation it reminded me the terminator 3 secret room scene....but it was all really full of dirty from walls and ceiling, dust everything, muffles .....the ampex mm1000 recorder semi damaged....and obviously the tape archive was really a mess, I think that they can't fix quite nothing. they ask me to buy and I made an offer but at the end gave everything to a museum... i remember well two urei 1176 original, an emt digital reverberator....and god only knows what else!
TASCAM is a division of TEAC that developed their multitrack products for the new home and small studio recording market. Some early multitrack recorders still used the TEAC name, but from 1973, the name TASCAM was used. This is a regular retail TASCAM 38 from about 1983. (Google Translate) TASCAMはTEACの一部門であり、新しいホームおよび小規模スタジオのレコーディング市場向けにマルチトラック製品を開発しました。 初期のマルチトラックレコーダーの中にはまだTEACの名前を使用しているものもありましたが、1973年からTASCAMという名前が使用されました。 1983年頃からの定期小売TASCAM38です。
And yet tape hobbyists still shell out money to buy old SSS tapes. A waste of time and money unless there is something extraordinary on the tape. However most of the time it's some old same old. I've learned to avoid the stuff in spite of being an expert at treating SSS.
The possibility, no matter how remote, that there will be an undiscovered gem of a recording on that mystery tape from a garage sale is enough to keep collectors buying old tapes. The same reason that people play bingo and buy lottery tickets - the triumph of hope over experience!
Tascam had an earlier 8-track 1/2" recorder from about 1975, but the 32 / 34 / 38 series came out in 1983, according to one Tascam history article I read. I bought mine second-hand (used) in about 1985.
Until seeing this video, just a few minutes ago, I thought 'sticky-shed syndrome' was a problem with reel-to-reel tapes from the 1970s. I first heard about baking master tapes back in the 1980s, when albums from the 1970s were being remastered for CD release. For example, that the master tape for John Lennon's Rock 'N' Roll album, originally released in 1975, had to be baked prior to remastering in 1988 or 1989. I think the master tape for Lennon's 'Walls and Bridges' album (1974) also had to be baked. I did not know the problem continued with masters from the 80s and 90s.
Refuse manager. .I will call on Friday to remove the tape machine for you,the council charge will be waved on this occasion as you paid your council tax this year. Thank you for recycling in the borough
Thanks for the kind offer ;-) Since spending time and effort fitting a new belt on the machine and sorting out its brakes, I've fallen in love with it again, so it's staying - at least for the time being!
How true! Unfortunately, we are now in the era of working with whatever old tapes we are given to recover. Also, although Maxell made great tape, they never made any other tape gauge wider than 1/4", to my knowledge, so a huge percentage of the 1/2" and wider tapes I encounter are Ampex. (Google translate...) Quant'è vero! Sfortunatamente, ora siamo nell'era in cui lavoriamo con qualunque vecchio nastro ci venga dato da recuperare. Inoltre, anche se Maxell ha realizzato ottimi nastri, non ha mai realizzato nessun altro nastro con spessore superiore a 1/4", per quanto ne so, quindi un'enorme percentuale dei nastri da 1/2" e più larghi che incontro sono Ampex.
I restore professional broadcast video tape machine with tapes that sometimes are 60 yrs old. Most times we have to bake them for a long time. Spinning video heads that rotating at 14,000 rpm are much more susceptible to bad tape issues. AMPEX made rhe WORST tape ever! Radio Shack Shamrock tape would have bem better! 3M tape is exrremely consistent
Regarding video tape, an old-timer told me the reason Opelika people wore smocks was to keep the oxide out of their clothes. In his words, Ampex video tape ground up the video heads. For audio recording, Radio Shack Super Lab Tape had terrible high frequency response, already dropping off at 3-4Khz.
In 1992 I came across the master tapes of "Ye-s-Close to the Edge" at a studio in Los Angeles. I put them on a machine and carefully rewound them very slowly to make sure there were no problems. There were several splices so i wanted to make sure they didn't break. It turned out to be the old European pink Agfa tape and played like a charm. So I got a reel of Ampex 456 and made myself a copy. (Bear in mind at this point the original masters were about 20 years old) I tried playing the copy about 5 years later and it was COMPLETELY gummy. I'll bet those Agfa originals still play just fine.
I'm sure they would, Ken. Sometimes, you can be pleasantly surprised: I recently volunteered to transfer an archive of recordings from the late 1980s / early 1990s, and was fearing the worst. But it turned out that all the recordings were on 1/4" Maxell UD tape, and that they were in perfect, as-new condition! It was quite a relief after dealing with my own archive, which consists almost entirely of sticky-shedding Ampex tapes. So you win some, you lose some!
I have yet to have any issues with Maxell. I bought 10 UD used from the mid 70's and all were in perfect condition.
At last, something genuinely useful on You Tube, why has this not gone viral????
Thanks for the feedback!
There are in fact quite a few other videos on this subject on RUclips. A lot of people use food desiccators to do the job, but I didn't think they were available in the UK when I made this video, hence the oven.
But a few months ago I found one on Amazon and bought it. It's a lot a lot less fiddly (once you've got the thermostat calibrated) - and I am now free to make my dinner at the same time as baking tapes!
:), I'm just remembering when they talked about 'cooking ferric' tape formulations years ago.
I use a food dehydrator to bake tapes. This works great on cassettes too.
buy a Food Dehydrator like the American Snackmaster FD-50 - I've used those. Reels fit perfectly. Temperature is low enough and controlled. Works.
can someone confirm that this method would work?
@@alkayemediagroup4536 I used a food dehydrator as well and it did help the playback for awhile.
@@alkayemediagroup4536 Confirmed
I have several AMPEX manufactured cassettes from the 1970's and 1980's that suffer from this. It's only the black tape, the brown tape still plays fine
Am having thids problem with 7 inch RR on plastic reels--will baking them melt the reels or the tape
Spool the tape off to an empty reel and test the reel on its own first to see if it behaves. Or spool tape onto a metal reel for baking. A food dehydrator is a safer solution (see various other comments and RUclips videos) but bear in mind that dehydrators tend to have a large diameter central boss, so they only work with the large central hole of a NAB reel.
@@reqordist Thats unless you have a square tray food dehydrator.
I would have cleaned and digitized the tape after the first baking. REVOX tapes were made by AMPEX or Maxell. You can only hear what's on the REVOX coils by the squeaking.
My mom bought an Ampex tape recorder in about 1965. I still have it and it plays but the brakes don't stop the tapes so my finger has to. She got a lot of Ampex tapes with it and they play fine. I transferred them to CD but these are 50+ year old tapes. I also have a couple of tapes made on my brother in laws R2R from back in 1958. That tape still works but is brittle. I have transferred it to CD too. Is it just later Ampex tapes that this squeal happens to? It doesn't much matter to me now as I only have one tape to transfer and I don't even know if I will do it.
Yes - Ampex tapes from the '80s and '90s seem to be the affected formulations. It was a quality control issue and when they were made aware of it (why did it take so long!), they revised (corrected) the formulation and fixed the problem.
it's more like ampex tape from the late seventies and onwards that had the problem
That seems to be the case, but it is probably because the binder formulation error was in the 'professional' tapes which tended to be back-coated; in my experience, it is the coating on the oxide side that goes sticky, not the back-coating.
really quite splended content also excellent stove quite enjoyed when i got to see the inside of the stove good looks mate
Cheers - it doesn't get used much for cooking. Fortunately, the food dessiccator I now use for tape 'baking' is a much cleaner environment!
One quastion: This solusion is good if the tape is being rolled on a metal reel. But what if the tape is rolled on a plastic reel? Will the plastic reel survive the oven heat without melting? And if the plastic reel can reallt melt - how do we transfer the tape to a metal reel whithout using the tape recorder?
I have only done this on metal reels. Baking only takes place at between 50 and 60 degrees Celsius (if your oven behaves and you keep an eye on it). Certainly worth trying with a blank plastic reel first. I have moved on to using a food dessiccator, which unlike my kitchen oven is not designed to go to much higher temperatures. The dessiccator has plastic separator trays, which seem to survive OK. But as usual, do your own tests and bake at your own risk - good luck!
A question If the tspes have exposed to water can they be playable again? Many thanks
I assume you mean the water from humidity in the air.
In my experience, after baking, the tapes are playable for a week or two. Tapes I had baked once and left for a few months needed baking again, which did work.
I would recommend baking and then doing the highest possible quality digital transfer you can, so you don't need to play the tape again.
I would not use baking as a strategy for doing new recording work on old sticky tape stock: if you do want to do new tape recording, I would advise buying new, good tape from the couple of manufacturers that still exist (but it's expensive!)
@@reqordist Hi my friend no actually what happened is that there were outside in garage but i hadn't realised part of the roof had caved in and the box I had my tapes in got filled with water
That is a different matter. 'Good' tape should not absorb water. If the make of tape is not one of those that suffer from sticky shed problem, they should be playable after allowing the spools to dry out very slowly. If there is a build-up of mould from the water immersion, it may still be possible to wash it, but there's no guarantee. Just make sure that the tape is dry before running it through your tape recorder. Good luck!
I can't hear the squeal. I'm hard of hearing, so the only way I can tell a tape has gone sticky is by the decrease in pitch of the info on the tape, due to the increase in drag.
How many shots would you normally get at transferring your material after a baking? I remember reading about how Wendy Carlos had to bake the Ampex masters for "Tron," but she only had one chance to do the transfer into ProTools because she had no idea whether the tape would stand a second try if the first transfer messed up.
Hi Larry - I could not say definitively.
However, I have done several digitizing runs after baking to capture at different sample rates etc., and the tape seems OK to me. My personal take on it is that if there's no oxide coming off on the heads and guides after baking, then it must still be on the tape. A tape deck with properly demagnetized heads and transport should not affect the signal on a tape to any noticeable extent (or multi-track recording would have been impossible) And yes, I know tapes will eventually wear out, but I reckon that needs hundreds of passes on a well set-up transport.
As the moisture returns to the tape after a while (weeks? months?) I wouldn't recommend it as a way to use old sticky tapes on new projects, in case you were tempted! I revisited a tape some 2 years after I had first baked it, and it had gone sticky again, so I had to re-bake it to make it playable. that seemsd fine, but I have no idea how many times a tape can be re-baked before it degrades noticeably.
Please bear in mind that this is what I have done with my own tapes (which are all Ampex except for one Scotch tape), where they only have value to me, and I make my own judgement as to the risk; your tapes may be different in formulation and react differently to baking, and may well have much greater value to you, so it's important to try it out with a non-critical tape of the same formulation (if you have one) first, or consult a professional who bakes tapes commercially and has experience of many different tape types.
BTW I do mention in the description that I now use a food dehydrator instead of the oven - a technique that seems to be well established by others. It still needs calibration and monitoring, but it seems more controllable (and is more compatible with home cooking..)
Great video I got a bunch of tape pancakes that have sticky shed I think I'm going to have to wind them before I can bake them how do I do that? 😎
Hmm... tricky one.
Firstly, how do you know they have sticky shed if they're on pancakes and have not been spooled?
Assuming that they are sticky, my inclination would be to bake them as-is without attempting any winding operation beforehand, as the action of winding can rip oxide off the tape at points where the stickiness acts as a glue.
If you absolutely must wind them on a tape machine, I would arrange for the tape to pass from reel to reel without going through the head/guide path. This may involve holding up the guide/levers by hand to enable the motors. And the slower the better!
Good luck!
Please,can you tell me what does it mean 8 track/8 channel ?.What kind of tape is used and how the tape recording is performed ?.
Also what amplifier should be used and how many speakers, to listen to 8 channels ?.
Thank you very much.
Hi Romeo.
That was not the subject of this video - it was about overcoming a probem with the tape formulation. If you want to know about using the Tascam 38, start here: ruclips.net/video/M4HCEw0sSr4/видео.html
HTH
Hi this is a great vid, I have loads of tapes I have to do. Can you tell what the cable you used to measure the temperature. And also do you bring the tapes up to temperature or put them in at heat.
Hi, I have a couple of commercial pre-recorded classical tapes that have serious tape squeak when playing. There does not seem to be any real evidence of sticky shred, surfaces seem dry. Any ideas how to solve the problem as I do not think that baking is the solution. I did hear that putting some sort of silicon coating on the tape surface may work. Have you any experience with that sort of solution.
There is a lubrication technique (which I have not used), and that may be more applicable to other brands/vintages of tapes that are not suffering from different degradation mechanisms from the classic Ampex '80s - '90s sticky shed syndrome.
Personally I don't like putting 'goo' onto my tapes and/or tape decks, but if it's a critical transfer of irreplaceable material, maybe it's worth the risk. Some people may offer this sort of tape treatment as a paid service.
Most pre-recorded tapes are simply not worth transferring, as the quality is poor; many such recordings will have been re-mastered from source tapes and re-released on CD anyway - it's worth researching that first, before taking any drastic action with your tapes!
that was my first thought, have a look at that curtain rale lube thats non stick, no dust or stain etc etc. they use it on valuable fabrics, might be worth investigating
just because it's not obvious does not mean that they do not benefit from baking
That settles it, I'm convinced! I have the same problem with my 1/2" tape. I'm baking mine too. Great vid, thanks!
You're welcome, Bob - take care with the temperature!
I have a question 🙋🏻♂️. Does it smel verry chemical when you bake a tape?
In my experience, there can be a slight smell. But you should only be driving off water, not causing the tape to break down chemically - which would damage it anyway. 55 deg C is not very hot. But it's always best to work in a properly ventilated room, though.
What ever happened to the machine? Is it for sale?
I keep it in working condition for recovering archive tapes. Not for sale atm!
@@reqordist Excellent. I used to own an analog studio in 1979 in Hollywood, Ca. Those were the days. I'm looking for a nice machine to bounce stems to and back. :) Tod
And interestingly that after messing up their tapes (and our recordings) Ampex went ahead and patented the baking process: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampex#Sticky-shed_syndrome. My BASF tapes are still like new, 30 years later
Yes, a most odd approach. Maybe it was to establish the 'official' way of drying out their faulty tapes. I presume someone offering baking as a commercial venture would have to licence the process. But I reckon most people devise their own DIY scheme just to deal with their own tapes, do a digital capture and draw a line under the whole sorry episode. BTW I use a food desiccator now (like seemingly everyone else) as it's much more convenient and there's less risk of overheating the tape!
So they patented the process and then never release some kind of commercial solution to fix their product's problem? Wow, what a bunch of a holes!
Not sure my wife would be pleased with me if I started to bake tapes in her oven, ha ha.
Don't unless it's electric.
Why would you want to dispose of such an iconic, never to be replaced piece of equipment?
Its execution has been stayed for the moment ;-)
I've had this also with Shamrock tapes. Tape wasn't even used at all - long storage. I Was surprised - it was so advanced that tape wouldn't unwind at all - magnetic layer when unwinded by force was detached . . .After I did such bake drying. It helped instantly - could unwind and record but after months whistling happened again. Two reel melted by temperature. So I decided it's too much job and developed my way - only condition is that tape is easy to unwind so first for those very bad is is to bake them. . I unwinded parts of tape loose to plastic container - rather not big one - mine was about 4 liters. Then this mess I dried with hair dryier untill the smell was sagnificantly less and tape got foldown, - usualy about 5 minutes, then wind it up to next reel and repeat with next part - for whole 7" reel it takes about 4 repeatitions. With beeing carefull not to definitely mix tape it is quite easy to regain it from mess. Take care to use not hot by hand but warm blow - some polyesters are vournerable for temerature. Having reel tape recorder it is convinient to use it for winding job in "play" mode with coupled reel. . It takes about 1 hour of job.This way I got permanent removal of sticky shred. I have also 3 Ampex which shown magnetic layer detachement - and after this drying it is so far stabil. I did this to few of my 26 pieces of Scotch which were showing signs of slow winding and it hepled too. All is working fine and because I am happy to see turning reels I am not willing to make digital copies.
Looking on the Internet, it seems that Shamrock tapes were made by Ampex, which may explain the sticky shed problem.
If the plastic reels had melted, that would suggest a temperature much higher than the 55degC recommended, but as I have only baked tapes on metal reels, I couldn't say what temperature plastic reels will actually melt at. The reels you show on videos of your modified B115 tape deck look like actual 8mm movie reels (with sprung radial arms), and they may be quite a soft plastic.
Glad to hear you've had good results, but I suspect they will get sticky again with time!
Anything may happen. But up to my observations it depends also on humidity around. And my is low. With tapes which were very bad as 3 pcs of my Shamrock it is not reliable - they already suffer from weak contact of magnetic layer with polyester so deck needs often to be cleaned and it is not pleasant but they are exceptional for sounding - better than CDs. Some Shamrock never had any problems -seem trusty and also good sounding. Shamrocks was my experience 5 years ago Today I do not expect anything like that with Scotch which is made in Italy and in perfect condition. Generaly I dry tapes even other makers. in case when winding speed is not normal or they are dirty before cleaning them more while they do not show typical sticky syndrome. I regained some tapes from pretty bad state not to play them but to record which is higher requirement. My casettes were in high humidity for more than 10 years, some chrome got even something like surface fungus and it is nonreperable. Strange but cheapest Fe are in primary shape for already 25 and more years. They are recorded in analog and sound marvelous. . PS reels which are in my clips are ORWO -old East German production very usefull for it's good design.And those unlucky were original Shamrocks which waited for me too long utill I finish my phone call:). Surprizingly tape wasn't hurt but I cant tell exact temperature they survived. .
I've found half an hour baking will give you around the same playability(2years),be warned,however that when re-recording the tape will not record like a new tape and will suffer drop outs(AMPEX)...AGFA,BASF are way better tape and don't suffer this problem and will give you more signal to noise thatn AMPEX,although sourcing it is difficult these days(AGFA 468,BASF 911)
Brand New tape VERY easy to source!!! Splicit.com, atrtape.com, recordingthemasters.com
that really depends how sticky the tape is, how long it layd still, and in what conditions. I have some ampex 1/2'' tapes, i tried baking them for 4,5 hours, at 55 degrees in a food dehydrator, and were still sticky. i had to bake them again for 24 hours, only then they were playable again
My reels are plastic, not metal. Is it safe to bake the tapes?
If in doubt, test!
50degC wouldn't normally damage plastic reels, but I would advise you to exercise extreme caution.
One approach would be to spool off the tape onto a spare reel (if the stickiness allows you to do that - see if you can bypass the record/playback heads - on some tape decks you can do that by routing the tape directly from supply spool to takeup spool via just the right-hand tension arm), and test-bake the empty plastic reel.
If your plastic reels are not up to it, you could get one metal spool and transfer the offending tape to it for baking (again assuming it will spool cleanly as mentioned above.)
In practice, the Ampex tape that I've owned and needed to bake has always been on metal reels. But note that 10 1/2" metal reels actually consist of two metal flange plates with a centre hub made of plastic. That hub plastic material is quite hard and seems different from that used in all-plastic reels, but I couldn't say what the difference is.
At the end of the day, it's your tape and your decision to bake or not to bake.
Be careful and good luck!
@@reqordist Thanks for the education.
so that you can get rid of your machine?
More so that I can get rid of my original tapes (none of earth-shattering importance!), and can deal with affected tapes that people bring me to transfer. I'm keeping this and all my other tape decks for the time being. BTW I have now bought a food desiccator (see lots of other videos on RUclips), which does the tape baking job without tying up my oven.
Nice.
no sound after baking, are they usable after?
The low temperatures involved in baking (55 deg C) would not remove the recorded sound. Most likely the tape was blank beforehand or damaged by truly excessive heat. If the former, they could be re-used for further recording (but not recommended as they will go sticky again within a few weeks); if the latter, the tape base may have been damaged anyway.
Can you tell by looking at the tape. I would have go to a studio to transfer them. How long does it take for this issue to appear? My tapes are from about 91 to 93.
Hi - You won't tell just from looking at it, I'm afraid. But within a few seconds of running it through a tape transport, you will know; you don't have to be listening to what's on the tape, so track layout is not an issue initially, as long as it will handle your tape width and spool size. If it drags and becomes squeaky, then you'll have to deal with it. If your tapes are Ampex, they were using the dodgy binder formulation around the time you mention. Don't forget to clean your tape transport after running sticky tape through it - the usual cotton buds / isopropyl alcohol method should do the trick!
reqordist Should I bake them now to eliminate that possabilty? Is there any risk of baking if it didn't have the sticky issue?
I would recommend baking tapes only shortly before doing a transfer, and then only if necessary. Baking is not a long-term fix, as the water vapour will return after a few weeks, so there's no benefit in baking if you're not intending to transfer at that time. And although it would probably not harm good tapes, there's no reason to subject them to abnormal temperatures unnecessarily. I recommend you contact a local studio who will almost certainly be able to check out your tapes. You may be lucky - some formulations have remained perfect and playable after 50 or more years!
reqordist Thanks, I appreciate your help.
i almost ruined my teac motor by running those sticky fucking back coated sss tapes!! lucky they work again but i smeeled some burned smell dont know if affected the motor really but s working fine with my old ferrite tapes
I've been using a dehydrator sold on Amazon, which they advertise as "Rosewill Countertop Portable Electric Machine Food Fruit Dehydrator." It's $40, and it fits both 7" and 10.5" reels with no modifications at all. It will also hold 1/2 inch audio tapes, VHS and Betas, and of course cassettes. I set it to 60 degrees C, load the tapes in it, and leave it alone for 24 hours. Works great. Comes with five see-through trays. It's like it was made for the purpose. And yes, it uses forced air ventilation. redbankvintageaudio.com.
Hi Scott. Sounds identical to the one I'm currently using - these all must be generic models re-branded by different importers. My experience is the same as yours - it works very well and is less risky than using a conventional oven. Haven't had to use it on video tapes or cassettes to date, though. I've found 4-5 hours does the job for me, even with 1/2" tapes - did you experiment with different durations before deciding on 24 hours?
SCot--I will buy the unit as you suggest as I do xfers for clients and need a fix...baking just does not seem right for my clients precious items (is this the one? www.amazon.com/dp/B018UR4XJI?tag=amz-mkt-chr-us-20&ascsubtag=1ba00-01000-org00-win10-other-nomod-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-wm-5&ref=aa_scomp
How many times can a tape be baked?
Have a trawl around the web. Most experts vaguely suggest several times, but I cannot verify that. However, I have baked some tapes twice with no noticeable degradation.
Most people would aim do the baking exercise just once, capturing to digital at the very best possible sample rate and resolution.
I see no point in baking sticky tapes for everyday recording use - better to buy tapes with a new 'non-sticky' formulation!
I don’t recommend baking the tapes in your daily use oven. On my old studio I bake around 100 35mm mag tapes
Reel to Reel tapes should be Double-Coated. Both sides of the tape should be glossy then you do not have any problem. Unfortunately AMPEX and Quantegy are not Double-Coated and that is why they get sticky and the capstan and the rubber pinch roller gets sticky. The best one is MAXELL and 3M Scotch ; maybe there are others.
Interesting. I had not come across the concept of 'double-coating'.
The mechanism for stickiness is now well understood and described in the literature, and is related to the hygroscopic nature of the particular plastic formulation used to bind the oxide to the substrate.
In my experience, a glossy finish to the non-oxide (back) side of the tape is an indication that it has _not_ been back-coated; back-coated tapes generally have a matt finish.
On the oxide side, tapes may have a matt finish (often older tapes) or a shiny finish (especially highly calendered tapes such as Maxell, often the thinner long-play variants).
I believe that both the back-coating and the recording (oxide/binder) surfaces can become sticky, and that the underlying polymer chemistry, not surface smoothness, is the determining factor for stickiness.
Regarding 3M tape, I have recently had to deal with some back-coated 3M material, and that was very sticky, just like Ampex. Forunately it responded well to baking.
Back coated or not coated I do not understand technically. One thing I know from my experience that outside of the tape should be GLOSSY. The Cassette tapes do not have sticking problem because the back of the tapes are GLOSSY. Thank you, Krikor Vasken from L. A. CA.
This video very helpful for me!
I thought it was because I used editing splicing tape, maybe a little of that to?
Hi Henry - glad you found the video useful.
I've found most splices quite stable if purpose-made splicing tape was used.
It gets messy where inexperienced people have used regular adhesive tape (sellotape etc.) - but in my experience, that just dries out and goes brittle with time, so the splices just fall apart; leaving the recording tape undamaged.
It can be irritating when a splice breaks in the middle of a rewind and you end up with loose tape all over the floor! But it's no trouble to re-do them with 'proper' splicing tape.
Great to know, thanks
I actually had what was supposed to be new in box sealed inexpensive Ampex tape do this in the 1980s
That's quite concerning - I had always thought that sticky-shed symptoms only appeared after the binder had aged for several (10+?) years. If it had been noted in new tapes in the 1980s, that begs the question of why Ampex didn't address the issue immediately. It would be good to see an authoritative chronology of the sticky-shed phenomenon.
I dug out one of the boxes of what now seems rather obvious that this was 'really' cheap audio tape.
Ampex 292 "Professional Audio Visual Recording Tape" Professional and Audio Visual in the same statement seems like a oxymoron.
1.0 Mil Polyester 1/4" tape (549m) x 7" (17.78 cm) Reel.
It's very possible this was not meant to be used on machines with tape pressure pads as in an old Wollensak 1500 or T1515. machine.
Not a tape formulation I had heard of, but it does feature in a massive list of Ampex tapes posted on the Gearslutz forum (google it!). I hadn't realised they had made so many tape products. There seem to be a lot of NOS 292s on eBay at the moment - I wonder whether someone has stumbled on a container-load of them? Personally, I wouldn't even consider buying blank tape from any other source than the (two?) remaining active manufacturers!
I had to deal with hundreds of these evil ampex garbage, HUNDREDS! I was searching around on why its making sounds effects that could fit right at home with rats screaming inside of a miniture brazon bull, but its all got to do with the fact that the tapes are cheap??? And only the brown ones do fine??????? Too bad i cant do shit about it! God damn ampex and their "mastering audio tape" MORE LIKE MASTERING HEARING LOSS! I DIDNT KNOW AMERICA MADE A KNOCKOFFS OF BASF!
Is this a Microwave Oven?
No!
There is a lot easier way to find out if tape has SSS without gumming up your unit like he did with this TASCAM: Just pull the tape straight across the top of the headblock with holding up the trigger roller or arm and wind it straight across to the takeup reel.
If the tape is sticking to itself as it's feeding off the roll and you rub the tape between the fingers and is sticky as crud, that tape is full of SSS and needs to be tossed.
You don't need to bake non coated tapes and NEVER bake acetate based tapes, or the head destroys the acetate.
Hi Monte,
I guess you didn't notice me ('he') saying I allowed this to run for a while quite deliberately for the purpose of demonstration; not for experienced tape users familiar with the problem (to whom it would have been apparent within the first few seconds), but for casual users who may be completely unaware of the phenomenon.
In my experience, although some tapes are definitely sticky to the touch as you describe, others may not seem so gooey on first inspection, and only start to squeal some distance into the reel.
While there is no point in baking sticky tape for making new recordings (new - stable - tape is still being manufactured, if you're desperate to do that), tapes that contain precious and irreplaceable material can't just be tossed out, so baking or other restorative action becomes necessary.
I assume you meant 'heat' in your last paragraph. Will acetate break down at 60degC? Fortunately, I have never encountered sticky shed with that base material.
Cheers!
@@reqordist ... Yes, heat. There has been some tapers that have baked acetate and wonder why it can't be played anymore. Sorry, I didn't have the volume up and only watched part of the video. I should know better. Thx and good luck.
Excellent, thank you for this info. Just what I needed to help with some old tapes.
As mentioned, the temperature controls on a kitchen oven are very crude. They are designed to cook things. I would consider this approach very risky. Maintaining a consistent, and consistently >>low
It has worked for me, but (as demonstrated) with constant supervision, and only after testing to verify the operation of the oven. I do make these precautions very clear in the video and covering text. I also mention in the text that I, in common with a large proportion of the tape-using community, have switched to the use of a food dessiccator, although that also needs verification before use and monitoring. What method do you use for your tapes?
I use a food dehydrator with quite precise temp settings. I've done many this way, and it's never failed. Interesting to hear that you can do it at all in a kitchen oven :) I've heard horror stories about tapes getting....(ahem) ....overdone. xD
so basically its just baking out the moisture, coudlnt you just chuck your tapes into a big plastic crate and chuck in a few moisture absorbers? and keep them in there or do what we used to do with photocopy paper and build a cupboard put a lightbulb inside.it and keep your tapes in there. the bulb boils off moisture in the air.
This video focuses on tapes that have already gone sticky, and it takes quite a high temperature (around 50 deg C) to drive off the moisture in a realistic timeframe, hence this procedure, whether using an oven as here, or a food desiccator.
It's possible that a low-humidity storage environment may have lessened the uptake of moisture over the years. Unfortunately, users were advised by the manufacturers to store their tapes in a moderately cool envirnoment with a 'normal' ambient humidity
Many people will have stored their master tapes away after initially releasing the material on LP or cassette, leaving them on the shelf for 10-15 years until a re-issue was required, at which point the horrible sticky truth dawned.
You could create a low-humidity environment by putting a light bulb or other heating element in a suitably ventilated box, but temperature control would be essential to avoid other tape degradation mechanisms due to excessive temperatures, not to mention the potential fire hazard during unattended operation.
In practice, custodians of major archival document/tape repositories implement very finely regulated temperature and humidity control, but this does come at the cost of constant power consumption and long-term equipment maintenance, which are probably outside the financial scope of the average recording enthusiast or small commercial studio.
Fortunately for people who choose to record on analogue tape now, the current tape formulations have been designed to avoid sticky shed, so they should survive the next few decades with normal storage precautions as well as the best examples from 50 years ago.
hi i did some baking of tapes i had to bake 406 9 x 1 inch for 8 hours as they were very bad i was baking tapes for days
you got to be carefull with the tape nabs on the 406 they can go funny i can tell you it works very well
i tryed 2 hours this works it's to do with the space the tapes take up in the oven
i baked 4 2 inch tapes for 2.5 hours as a test did not work after 5 hrs alot better
It amazes me that the moisture can escape at all from a tightly-wound 2-inch tape pancake! I've only had to do 1/4 inch 1/2 inch so far.
I may have commented on this subject on his channel once before so I hope I'm not being redundant but if you bake your tapes you will sorry. baking destroys the Fidelity of your precious recordings it's fine for dialogue but for sophisticated high-fidelity music we have found that it is not good at all. it will completely change the sound of you're recording. At least that was our experience with our two inch 24 track tapes that we had baked at three different locations. we suggest that you do some research on using Nu Finish the car wax in order to restore and rejuvenate your precious tapes. we tried it and it works
TDK produced the finest tape.
it was never really a 'pro' brand but consumer only .... BASF, Ampex, Scotch and a few others were the most respected -though the ampex obviously had unforeseen problems with it's chemistry
True - they made great cassette and 1/4" open reel tapes, and I had good results with them, but I can't recall them producing tape in open reel formats wider than 1/4", and if that was the case, it would not have been an option for studios using 1/2", 1" and 2" machines.
yes - i've NEVER seen TDK available in anything over 1/4" - either being sold new or else second hand ... and I've been using it and buying since the 80s ...
Totally agreed, if we talk about 1/4" tapes - TDK and Maxell are the best. Also, BASF and AGFA are not bad if properly stored over the years. AMPEX is junk. They were good when produced new back in 70's and 80's but over time they turned to junk...
I have a Tascam reel deck like this one. I wish I could try this. But, I'm a bit leery because I have a few hundred old radio commercials on 5" plastic reels, nothing on metal reels that you have. I don't imagine putting plastic in an oven at 130 F for any length of time is a very good idea, but if you don't think it'll melt the plastic, I'd love to try it.
Hi - as I have said in replies to several other comments, this is really a matter for your own experimentation, undertaken at your own risk. You could spool off tape onto a spare reel (if the tape is not too sticky to wind), and try the reel on its own to see how the plastic fares. Or just get one metal reel for baking purposes. If you are at all uncertain, I would recommend you take your tapes to a professional who has done this before. Please also note - as I mention in the video description - that I have moved on from using a domestic oven to a food dessiccator, which has a more controllable temperature range, and whose use for tape baking is described by others on RUclips.
Ah - looks like you did see the other response - your comments arrived out of sequence!
Perfect !!! This is the sound ... glad I found your video 🙂... now it's is time for baking lol
OK - test a non-critical piece first - be very careful about temperature. See my note about a food dehydrator being the better solution. Good luck!
I have at least 20 scotch brand tape on 10 1/2 inch reels like that.
Thank You!!!
hi i 100% one this to ampex 406 1 inch tapes 40 of them danger is the word some of the nab hubs don't like the heat and go funny
i had to put spacers in some of the reel hubs because the hub dia has gone down and would not go no the recorder.
i fixed the hub's on more thng have the windows open all the time. i did them all in the winter when baking soming comes out
of the tapes into the air and can do your head in i had 8x 1 inch tapes in at a time thanks for the video it helped big time bob
Hi Bob - have not had hubs misbehave for me, but only 1/4" and 1/2" tapes here.
Regarding volatile materials, I guess good ventilation is always a smart move when baking anything, but in my experience (mainly with 406 like your tapes) I have never smelled any real strong odour from the baking process.
It must come down to tape formulation and reel components.
I never heard that with anything I did since 1979
Sounds like you struck lucky and never used tape from manufacturers whose formulations suffered from sticky shed! Maxell tapes, as an example, still play perfectly - just a pity they didn't make the wider gauge tapes back in the 80s and 90s :-(
reqordist 3M
Yes, that was a good make!
I bought a reel to reel for 20$ at a garage sale..it had been stored in a barn and I found some reels of tape in a second hand store. I was never able to get the speed to remainin stable for long...I've nearly trashed it trying to set the tensions...oops!! after seeing this I noticed my reels are plastic....Maybe microwave them?1!
Do not even think about microwaving tapes - it won't work and may cause a fire. Use only a fan-assisted electric oven or a food desiccator, suitably calibrated for temperature. Do a risk assessment based on your own equipment and location before baking the tapes.
Don't bake on plastic reels - pick up a second-hand metal reel off ebay or a garage sale, spool your tapes onto it one by one, and bake them singly on the metal reel.
Finally, it's always possible that the problem of speed variation may not be due to sticky shed, but the internal transport components of your old tape deck. If that's the case, baking the tape will not help. Playing a known 'non-sticky' tape will help rule out that possibility.
Good luck!
oh my god...is it possibile to do it with home oven????!!!!
i knew it was impossible and quite dangerous due to:
1) electromagnetic fields from electric oven (house ovens are not always well shelded)
2) no constant temperature control (but maybe can be obtained monitoring constantly the temperature)
3) the oxide vapours from the magnetic tape could fly and fix themself inside the oven and the next time you cook a chicken or a pizza you'll get an oxide flavour pizza that can seriously poison anyone would try to eat.
never seen doing something at home :O
(I remember one friend who tried years ago but used an old gas oven in the basement not used anymore in the kitchen....and the result was a total disaster due to the poor temperature control and feedback....he baked in the very good meaning of the word the poor old tape!)
Hi - it is, because you see me doing it in this video!
Electromagnetic fields are not an issue: the heating elements and fan are all behind a perforated steel grille, and are unlikely to radiate any significant EM field. In fact, the food dehydrators favoured by many people (now including me) are almost all plastic-bodied and therefore unshielded.
You see me constantly monitoring the temperature in this video. The oven's thermostat varies over a 10 degree range in operation, but the tapes on their reels will see an average value due to their comparatively high thermal mass.
The 50 deg C temperature used here is quite low - near the lowest setting on the oven (not a 'proper' cooking temperature). While this is sufficient to drive off the troublesome water content, I believe it would have to get a lot hotter before other components of the tape started breaking down and liberating noxious fumes.
I mention in the description that this should _never_ be done with a gas oven or anything with a naked flame! And gas produces water vapour as it burns, which is not what we want here!
Anyone considering doing this procedure should be prepared to do some sample runs on non-critical material before committing their valuable tapes. It worked for me, but as they say, YMMV...
+reqordist well i've read much about the subject even in the past and here in my city there is also a place where we used to bring in the past 2'' old tapes to be burned for the transfer, when i was a teenager and one of my friend older than me was working as assistant in a big recording studio....I was really into this, even I had no personal tapes for baking because I always worked with HD rec since late ninenties and also when i've started my small recording studio.
but I am really interested about the subject of vintage audio tapes, restoration and rescue of old audio material, this is really interesting.
Fortunately not all old tapes suffer from sticky shed syndrome! Going back through the archives can be a fascinating and rewarding exercise - I have been amazed at the quality of old recordings when they were made by engineers who knew how to work within the limitations of analogue tape. Enjoy your trip through musical history!
+reqordist yes yes...most 2'' that suffer about the sticky syndrome are from ampex and scotch made between 1976 and 1985, here in milan there were some studios with not a proper archive for tapes or maybe in past they didn't think about a good way to protect them...and as a consequence some old multitrack tapes and also 1/4 inch mastertapes mixes are gone forever...there was a studio near my home with an amazing italian vintage mixing desk from late 60s...and after the owner death was closed for more than 10 years...when I entered i saw a really incredible situation it reminded me the terminator 3 secret room scene....but it was all really full of dirty from walls and ceiling, dust everything, muffles .....the ampex mm1000 recorder semi damaged....and obviously the tape archive was really a mess, I think that they can't fix quite nothing.
they ask me to buy and I made an offer but at the end gave everything to a museum... i remember well two urei 1176 original, an emt digital reverberator....and god only knows what else!
Slightly different temperatures involved there, I think! Will let you know if _I_ start to suffer from sticky shed syndrome!
Many many thanks for your video sir, much appreciated.
見た目が日本のTEACですが、OEMかしら？しかし大変高額たゎ🤔😓
TASCAM is a division of TEAC that developed their multitrack products for the new home and small studio recording market. Some early multitrack recorders still used the TEAC name, but from 1973, the name TASCAM was used. This is a regular retail TASCAM 38 from about 1983.
(Google Translate)
TASCAMはTEACの一部門であり、新しいホームおよび小規模スタジオのレコーディング市場向けにマルチトラック製品を開発しました。 初期のマルチトラックレコーダーの中にはまだTEACの名前を使用しているものもありましたが、1973年からTASCAMという名前が使用されました。 1983年頃からの定期小売TASCAM38です。
Sounds like the kettle has boiled. lol
search 'if I'd known you were coming I'd have baked a tape' -seriously
Thanks, Ed - it's a good article.
And yet tape hobbyists still shell out money to buy old SSS tapes. A waste of time and money unless there is something extraordinary on the tape. However most of the time it's some old same old. I've learned to avoid the stuff in spite of being an expert at treating SSS.
The possibility, no matter how remote, that there will be an undiscovered gem of a recording on that mystery tape from a garage sale is enough to keep collectors buying old tapes. The same reason that people play bingo and buy lottery tickets - the triumph of hope over experience!
More like from 1970's rather than from 1980's/1990's.
Tascam had an earlier 8-track 1/2" recorder from about 1975, but the 32 / 34 / 38 series came out in 1983, according to one Tascam history article I read. I bought mine second-hand (used) in about 1985.
Until seeing this video, just a few minutes ago, I thought 'sticky-shed syndrome' was a problem with reel-to-reel tapes from the 1970s. I first heard about baking master tapes back in the 1980s, when albums from the 1970s were being remastered for CD release. For example, that the master tape for John Lennon's Rock 'N' Roll album, originally released in 1975, had to be baked prior to remastering in 1988 or 1989. I think the master tape for Lennon's 'Walls and Bridges' album (1974) also had to be baked. I did not know the problem continued with masters from the 80s and 90s.
hi to all I don't like the ampex zonal agfa tapes are far better. it's real pain to bake them ampex tapes
Refuse manager. .I will call on Friday to remove the tape machine for you,the council charge will be waved on this occasion as you paid your council tax this year. Thank you for recycling in the borough
Thanks for the kind offer ;-)
Since spending time and effort fitting a new belt on the machine and sorting out its brakes, I've fallen in love with it again, so it's staying - at least for the time being!
NON SONO BUONI I NASTRI AMPEX,......MEGLIO MAXELL UD50-10R.......NON DANNO NESSUN PROBLEMA
How true! Unfortunately, we are now in the era of working with whatever old tapes we are given to recover. Also, although Maxell made great tape, they never made any other tape gauge wider than 1/4", to my knowledge, so a huge percentage of the 1/2" and wider tapes I encounter are Ampex.
(Google translate...)
Quant'è vero! Sfortunatamente, ora siamo nell'era in cui lavoriamo con qualunque vecchio nastro ci venga dato da recuperare. Inoltre, anche se Maxell ha realizzato ottimi nastri, non ha mai realizzato nessun altro nastro con spessore superiore a 1/4", per quanto ne so, quindi un'enorme percentuale dei nastri da 1/2" e più larghi che incontro sono Ampex.
I restore professional broadcast video tape machine with tapes that sometimes are 60 yrs old. Most times we have to bake them for a long time. Spinning video heads that rotating at 14,000 rpm are much more susceptible to bad tape issues. AMPEX made rhe WORST tape ever! Radio Shack Shamrock tape would have bem better!
3M tape is exrremely consistent
Regarding video tape, an old-timer told me the reason Opelika people wore smocks was to keep the oxide out of their clothes. In his words, Ampex video tape ground up the video heads. For audio recording, Radio Shack Super Lab Tape had terrible high frequency response, already dropping off at 3-4Khz.
That's at 7.5 ips
Правильно сказали - Ампекх гавно плёнка. Купи себе Максвел или ТДК, на крайняк Басф.