Is Geothermal Heating and Cooling Worth the Cost? Heat Pumps Explained
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- Опубликовано: 8 мар 2021
- Is Geothermal Heating and Cooling Worth the Cost? Heat pumps Explained. Go to brilliant.org/Undecided to sign up for free. And also, the first 200 people will get 20% off their annual premium membership. When building a house, homeowners have several ways to power their heating and cooling systems, like oil, natural gas, or electricity. But there’s another option right below our feet. You can install geothermal heating and cooling in your home, but is it worth the cost? And how does it hold up?
▻ Watch Geothermal Energy Explained - A Not So Hot Solution? - • Geothermal Energy Expl...
▻ Follow-up podcast episode: • 61: Talking Geothermal...
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Do you want a geothermal heating/cooling setup for your home? I know I do. And to learn more about geothermal energy, check out my other video on the topic: ruclips.net/video/-HhdR9YRGxI/видео.html
Could you do a show on combination solar panels? I hear they could be 80% more efficient than regular solar panels
Here in The Netherlands we have a company called Solar Freezer. This is what i am getting installed this summer. You should check this out
YES :D
Do you list where you get the sources from these videos??
Yes, I would love to switch to GSHP & hybrid/combination solar panels & wind, with energy storage, vehicle charging, etc. I just need to find the money.
My house has had a ground source heat pump (GSHP) for 18 years now. It works really great as I don't have any natural gas connected to my house. Also I live in Edmonton Canada which gets crazy cold in the winter. I have a closed vertical loop system
I’m in south east BC and am considering a gshp retrofit. I’m curious, how deep are your vertical loops?
Hey Andrew, what's your insulation/envelope like? I'm in YYC looking at a retrofit.
@@gregholloway2656 I think mine are around 200ft deep
@@acedrew1 thanks Andrew!
How is it heating up your house? Do you still need to run a heater/furnace to top up the heat?
I understand that the ground is cooler in the summers and how it cools but not how (much) it heats. When outside is -20 i presume that the ground is still kind of cool.... but now I read its 200ft deep, I wonder how warm the ground would be.
Converted my home to vertical loop GSHP system when I bought it 23 years ago. The previous owner was spending thousands per year on propane and that cost completely went away while my electricity costs were actually less. However, I did have several maintenance issues in the first few years that made me question my decision. After switching service companies things have run smoothly for several years. Can’t emphasize enough how important it is to contract with an experienced company with a long track record in this industry.
Thank you for your input, good to know. I hope everything is fine now. Cheers.
"The previous owner was spending thousands per year on propane"? Thousands?
@@rf7192 I am using thousands on oil every year. I'd say... about 1k every 3-4 months give or take. I've seriously thought about geothermal in the past but I once saw a video where they compared geothermal and "air to water" heat pumps.. the upfront cost was way higher on geo and the payback time was still almost the same on both.
This. I'm shopping for a contractor and service plan. One contractor (who doesn't do residential anymore) strongly recommended against almost all of the other contractors in the area because he had kept getting hired to go and fix their botched jobs. After digging around and reaching out to others with GSHP systems, I found similar bad experiences in cases where the system was either improperly installed or given maintenance by inexperienced people.
@@rf7192 in my area it's not uncommon at all to pay thousands per year on oil or propane.
Warning: I invested the "Ferrari" of geo thermal systems a few years ago at a cost of about $40,000K for a closed vertical loop system. The system worked great providing cheap heating and cooling for about 3 years, and then just stopped. When they came to investigate, apparently the pipes had snapped because the bedrock rock under ground had shifted. To repair would have required a reinstallation of the pipes which would almost have been as pricey as the original installation, so needless to say I ended up getting a high efficiency propane system. I also was told this is a common problem with these systems, and found many horror stories on line. I wish I had known this before the original installation. Buyer beware.
I wonder if more flexible tubing would help prevent the pipe snapping you experienced. I suppose if too flexible, the hose could crimp and impede the coolant flow.
Sorry to hear this, someone really tried to take advantage of you. Full re-installation wouldn’t have been necessary.
@@WT7005 it probably would have gotten pinched and stopped regardless
It's a warning valid for areas with tectonic activities. But it should have been known in advance, and the flat collectors should have got preference over a deep whole.
Aither geologist fucked up or they didnt employ one, in aither case that fuckup should be on them
Ok, so I can answer the " how does it hold up " question. We put a geothermal furnace in at my dads house nearly 20 years ago now. We did it our self, all for under $5,000. It has worked perfectly, with no issues, since we installed it. It has RV antifreeze in it. The line is 6 feet down. It has worked excellent, and that is in northern Ohio ( some pretty cold winters! ).
Can it be hooked up to an already existing HVAC system or do you have to have a special system?
@@rosstemple7617
Phone your local Hvc to find out.
In those 20 years, how much maintenance or repair have you had to do to the system? Thanks
This isn't "geothermal", it's ground source heat pump
@@peepiepo anything from the ground is geo. you didn't watch the video. yes the geothermal you are thinking of is the Yellowstone geysers. but not all ground is that hot.
I had a house built in 1985. There was a 50% tax credit at the time, which brought the price down to be comparable to a conventional air-to-air heat pump. The entire system was $7800 before the tax credit. The closed loop, vertically drilled system worked great. I'm amazed this technology still isn't more common.
yi
Holy shit, my grandmothers 4 bedroom+gigantic livingroom+bedroom sized kitchen monster of a house has an HVAC, their replacement HVAC cost them 6,000 NIS (roughly 1800 USD) and it was one of the more overpowered systems for their house.
Why are HVAC systems so cheap here in israel when the cost of housing is through the roof? Fucking greedy assholes bubbling the housing market, I hope they all get cancer so they have something useful to use all that money they're sucking out of us.
@@ScarletFlames1 same applies to land thieves as well 🔥
@@ScarletFlames1 מה קורה אחי חחחחח
Well someone has to make money.
You could use solar thermal on the roof and geothermal under the home to not only heat and cool the place and provide hot water, but also to generate the electricity needed to run the system. If the home is built with proper orientation to the sun and proper insulation, you begin with a home that requires only 15% of the energy a normal home requires. A Stirling generator that takes advantage of the heat differentials could possibly generate this low power requirement and the home could heat and cool itself automatically without a grid connection at all.
This is what I was thinking of doing when I build my barn house.
I just installed this here in Finland. They drilled vertically 160m. in the granit rock, coming +65C warming water in batteries and same gives warm wather for shower. Cost 22K€ minus some thousands back from taxes (because I changed off oil heating).
160m?! They built a mine under your house
That is not ground sourced heat. That is geo-thermal water heating.
WOW, I am very happy to hear that you can drill such a shallow well and reach 65 C water - that is 150F in American terms. That is so hot that it would need to be cooled off to take a shower! It is sort of like paying your natural gas or oil fuel bill only once for the rest of the life of the home, and then some! You should be able to share some of this heat with your neighbors, if they are close by! Maybe tell them you will supply all the hot water they need for $45 euro's a month? Then payback can happen much sooner!
I converted from an oil fired hot water system to geothermal 8 yrs ago. I live in a cold climate, ADKs northern NY. It’s worked very well. After 30% tax credit, system cost for 5Ton unit was $20K and has yielded a roughly 9% ROR. Since the savings aren’t taxed that’s equivalent to a 12% pretax investment. Since I have a large 4 acre backyard, I have one long 450’ loop with outflow on one side and return on the other, 5 ft below ground that was trenched, laid & covered in one day for $3,000. The larger part of our cost was installing an air duct system in our two story home. I later installed a 9300 KWH solar array on my barn roof with 55% cost covered by State & Fed incentive. Our 3,000 sft home is now 100% electric heat, cool, hot water at under $100/ mo. Aside from the great savings and payback, both systems add a lot to property value.
I saw this video after watching the Technology Connections video. This upload was perfectly timed! Love the two perspectives!
Awesome! Thank you!
Except another guy's Explain Send topic very complicated way
@@UndecidedMF how many feet of underground piping would you recommend for a 15 x 100 foot building ? How many feet deep should it be buried ? What is the recommended pipe diameter and wall thickness ? You've got me interested in geo-thermal energy , Thanks for any advice you can give .
Link to that video? I can’t seem to find it
The difference is Matt Ferrell doesn't understand heat pumps, he even says a liquid can be compressed.
Combined with phovoltaic panels, geothermal heating/cooling is one of the greenest and cheapest home temperature management systems. Great video, great topic
You can even use excess solar to store thermal energy in your house, i.e. making it a degree or two warmer (in heat mode) or lower (in AC mode), lowering the amount of electricity needed during that afternoon/evening spike in electricity
@@ThomasBomb45 or warm your boiler water to a higher temperature so you need to heat it less over night.
Do you mean operating costs or total cost of ownership?
Solar is actually just as bad if not worse for global warming. All energy = heat and solar is absorbing sun energy that would get reflected back into space. Capturing that heat (in a very inefficient conversion non the less) it adds heat to the closed system that is no longer radiated into space. That is what is meant when people talk about the albedo of the planet.
If we want to use solar energy we need to build even more systems that would reduce the amount of sunlight that is absorbed by our atmosphere. Either increasing the amount of ice, building sun shades, reflectors or increasing cloud cover (which also absorbs some sunlight)
People need to be careful, because both sides spread a lot of propaganda and in a few years you will be told by the big polluters how they were right all along.
Geothermal, Nuclear, Hydro, and ocean hydro are the real energy sources we need to focus on. In addition, we need to do the things I suggested above to reduce the amount of sunlight, We have already lost so much ice, that even going energy neutral would not be enough at this point to stop global warming.
@@excitedbox5705 I really doubt we are putting in enough solar panels to substantially increase global albedo, especially if you are putting them on top of an asphalt shingle roof that is about as dark as the panels.
We're installing a ground source closed loop system at our house and they're using a technology you missed -- directional drilling. Rather than digging up your entire yard or bringing in a well digging rig, it can dig a few feet down and snake around under your yard without excavation. Same technology that was used to replace our below ground level water main when the old galvanized steel pipes burst.
If you're thinking of installing a system, check to see if anyone in your area does directional drilling! Huge cost savings for the drilling component.
Does the ground freeze in your area?
Thank you!!!!!
most places have it, it's also sometimes called "directional boring". It's a super common service since thats what they use to get power or data lines under roads so if you cant find someone to do it you can try calling local utility companies to see who they hire. It's almost never done in house since the codes are pretty stringent, it's highly specialized equipment, and they have really high insurance so it's almost always contracted out.
@@squamish4244 It's pretty rare for the ground to freeze more than a foot down, and even that often takes months of freezing temperatures. Burial depths for plumbing lines vary but 1ft or more is common but almost everyone requires them to be buried below the frost line. I commonly see them buried at the same depth as power lines which are 24 inches measured from the top of the pipe.
If that loop isn’t at least 6 to 8 feet deep you efficiency will definitely not be as good as it should be, a geo will only be as efficient as the ground loop due to the fact that it is the means of the thermal transfer.
I've been interested in Geothermal heating & cooling since early in the century, particularly the dual source heat pump. You definitely want to have the space a soil types to dig, or a deep pond or lake in which the coils could be installed. It's amazing technology.
In the 1990s, when my Dad looked into it, this was called "geoexchange." "Geothermal" referred to getting heat from deeper underground or from near volcanoes. For some reason, "geoexchange" was dropped.
too cheap and efficient , you don't need to replace every 6/8 /or 10 years everything as is done with wind turbines energy or solar energy
That's exactly right, geothermal is deep heat caused by radioactive decay and earth's internal heat reservoir, as he mentioned earlier in the video. What this video describes is ground-source heat pumps, a different thing altogether. Also as he stated, GSHPs just use the more stable temperatures in the soil to improve the efficiency of heat pump systems somewhat, they do not extract deep heat, which is in the hundreds of degrees C.
It seems to have become common to confuse the two terms, but someone making such videos should not be using those terms interchangeably, because it's incorrect.
In Swedish, this is called Earth Heat, and Geothermal is Geothermal still, sure Geothermal means earth heat... But as with most things, there are better solutions than this. 200 meters below the surface the temperature is about 25 degrees Celsius or 77 Fahrenheit, if you had a closed loop system that far down, you could heat an entire city for free. But oh no doing things the common sense way is too expensive, when it would literally just require that they mined out a 200 meter long hole, and then emptied out perhaps 5000 sq.feet of space and laid heat pipes there and then just put some support to make sure that it was stable, then they'd have free heat for the rest of their fucking lives and then more, they could've been immortal and the heat wouldn't run out.
Thank you for letting me know i actually want a geoexchange system
Ground Source is what i remember
My wife and I have been looking into a Geothermal heat pump system but couldn't find an explanation to suit our understanding of how they work. Now we know. Thank you.
It would be great if new subdivisions were designed to incorporate a "shared" geothermal system installed under the roads/parks etc.
Similar to how Toronto's Deep lake water cooling works for businesses, just on a smaller scale.
That would be nice, but who would be financially responsible for fixing it whenever it has a problem in an area that's not on any residents property? Issues that are on a residents property would work like sewage and water lines, where the homeowner is responsible, but who would have to pay for fixing the system if it's main reservoir busted or something, the township? I don't think they'd be too happy to have it built then, since air units by comparison are all on the homeowner.
Probably great for a small dense area, but not so great for a large sprawling subdivision.
@@kadewiedeman3127 HOA can finally make itself useful
@@lucassalas1572 oof, I can only imagine the HOA fee of living in a place with that system, now. The ridiculous $200/month ones here in NJ would look like chump change by comparison.
That's called district heating and happens around the world. We'll see more of it in the future in our urban landscapes.
We live in northern Colorado and moved from in-town to a farm with electric base board heating and mini-splits. I'm using your content as part of my homework to best understand how to heat and cool a 2000 sq ft house.
Fantastic information, plus excellent production as well. Thank you for putting your time and efforts into these topics. I subscribed too!
Did you end up going with ground source heat?
One of my internship as a Stationary Power Engineer was in a hospital that used a geothermal closed loop system to save energy and even after they discovered that an underground river was partly leaking the energy out, they were able make some good use of it. Thanks for the video and I can only wish to see more houses with geothermal systems in the future. :)
Insulate & air seal so you need a small affordable heat/cooling system. It's easy & fun to focus on the technology. Passive House, ENERFIT, etc
Everyone should check with their local electric company to see what they'll help pay for in this regard. Often it's substantial.
A tight well insulated house beats all technology solutions including solar. Maintenance free with zero annual cost. A tube of caulk is $2.
@@kirkland5674 some people like ventilation, as even a small rise in CO2 makes a surprising difference to your mental state and ability. You can insulate as much as you want but if your ventilation system in drawing 10% - 30% fresh air then you will need a system to keep the house at the correct temperature.
I put in a new geothermal system a few years ago. Upfront cost was high. About $32k for a vertical loop and a high end Waterfurnace 7 series. Initial savings were a little over $2k per year. With oil prices higher now, savings are at least $2.5k per year. At the time, tax credits we’re higher, so my break even cost was 5 to 6 years when you subtract the cost of a conventional system I would have bought and the tax credits.
One thing this video doesn’t cover are the comfort advantages. For starters, the system is extremely quiet. You really never hear it. Instead, it runs pretty steadily at a very power efficient rate. So, there are no swings in temperature that you have in more conventional systems. Your house is just the temperature you want. You never have to even think about it. Oh, and because of the desuperheater, we effectively get free hot water during the summer months.
If anyone is “on the fence” and seriously considering a geothermal system, I would strongly recommend they get one. I’m very happy with my system both for the efficiency and cost savings, but also for the comfort.
How deep did you have to drill and what was the temp coming out of the ground?
@@litoaykiu They drilled 2 boreholes that were each 300 feet deep for our loop. I don’t know the exact temperature of the water.
@@steveseidel9967 Thanks!
With a life span of ten years, a replacement cost of the compressors between 8 and 15k, and electricity prices now at 30cents a kwhr, the comfort is nice but not in way cost effective.
My geo unit was installed in 2012, and has an average annual cost (including installation and maintenance) is $17,000 per year. Anyone can decide for themselves if that is cost effective.
@@jku72 Nobody is spending $17k per year. That’s absurd. Also, more than half the cost was the drilling for me. My ground loop has a 60 year warranty.
The price of a new compressor is more like $3k. The prices you mention are to replace the entire unit. Also, the entire unit is indoor so it’s not exposed to the elements like a traditional system, so your average lifespan isn’t correct either.
EXCELLENT breakdown of the subject, as always. So thorough and clear!
Your video touched on just about all my experiences with my gshp geothermal system. We purchased our home in 2002 in SE Virginia with its original open loop geothermal system now 20 years old. Loved it until 2013 when I walked into my garage to find the well pump had blown to roof off itself because the debris in the water over the years had clogged the return line and the pressure destroyed the pump. Crazy estimates to replace the pump and drill a new return line left us still with a 31 year old open loop system. We opted for a new closed loop system that is AMAZING! We had 5 wells drilled instead of the 4 the system called for and they are each 200 feet deep. No debris to deal with in a closed loop system and much quieter since the pump is much smaller. I will never have another heating/cooling system other than geothermal. Great video!
@Zombie Eric Harris The cost of the new closed loop system was 18k and some change. Overall it's been the best investment since we've owned our home. Next up is having our crawl space encapsulated.
@Zombie Eric Harris I'm not so sure I would change a thing in how mine was put in place. My salesman sold me the system, the company already had a well drilling company they used, who not only drilled the wells but installed the loops of tubing, and then connected all of the tubing into the manifold that attaches to the unit. It was "one stop shopping " and it limits the number of persons who have their fingers in the equation. If one subcontractor messes up on their step it can destroy the whole system, and with one person (or contractor) in charge, anything goes wrong it's on them. Good luck with whatever you decide!
I installed Geothermal a couple years after adding solar energy to the home, my overall cost structure went from $4500 per "year" to heat/cool/appliances/Electronics/and gasoline down to $1000 per year for all that including an electric car. Sure investment was high, but I am planning on retirement having lower bills. So far it's working.
Well good thing you are retiring soon because after about 10 years those solar panels are going to be working at half their original output and if they are still functioning after 15 and make it to their pay out life time of 20 year it'll be a miracle but it'll be your kids or the next owners problem then. Also don't expect that electric car to last more than 6 years, maybe 8 before you are paying essentially what you put into it to replace the batteries. (At least 20 grand)
Green energy isn't nearly as green as you think, solar panels use a LOT of coal and other "dirty" processes to make them but never turn about their carbon footprint they make in their creation.
@@SilvaDreams Thank you for some common sense in this comment section. 👏
@@SilvaDreams Even if at the point green energy sourcers are enough to self-sustain the manufacturing, the materials require mining and refining. And even then, materials are subject to degredation, whether it is mechanical or electrical.
@@SilvaDreams
"after about 10 years those solar panels are going to be working at half their original output"
• Most panels warranty 90% at 10 years, and 80% at 25 years...
"don't expect that electric car to last more than 6 years, maybe 8"
• Teslas *worst* warranty level is "8 years or 160,000 km, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period." and they're not going to risk having them fail within warranty periods, so you'll get substantially longer than that. Independent sites list it at 300,000 to 500,000 on average, with some test vehicles having 150,000 km with 90% efficiency still.
"solar panels use a LOT of coal and other "dirty" processes to make them but never turn about their carbon footprint"
• Boomer misinformation easily disproven with a quick google search. The manufacturing threshold was passed a long time ago, and solar currently sits at 5-20% of the carbon footprint of gas or coal (depending on if/what carbon capture technology is being used by them, and which of the two you look at)
@@SilvaDreams you know that top modern solar panels guarantee 90% functionality in 30 years right?
As somebody who installs geothermal loops, it’s definitely a huge upfront cost in comparison to conventional heat pumps. That being said, if you’re planning on staying at the residence where the geothermal loop is being install for 10-15 years plus it’s definitely worth it. It’ll save you on monthly costs
If the loops are installed UNDER the roads outside the house when the suburbs were being set up, costs would be slashed.
@@goranmiljus2664 That's a good point but would traffic vibration reduce the life of the system?
@@goranmiljus2664 but eventual fixing would be a nightmare
I think fuel heating costs are going to skyrocket. Expect your money back much sooner.
What kind of monthly payments are we looking at for say a 3.5ton system? Vertical vs horizontal? I have solar panels and havent paid an electric bill in almost a year... if i'm already not paying an electric bill is something like this even worth it?
I have a ground heat pump in my house in Germany, it has a bit different structure from what you mentioned: it pumps in closed system through two vertical pipes, which are about 60m under the ground. Heating my house which is about 185m2 costs me about one quarter of my neighbor needs for his house, which is smaller than mine. The whole house has average temperature above 19 degrees for the whole winter for 24/7. Two big rooms I keep their temperature above 21 degrees. It’s powered half the day with solar panels. This is the best investment I ever did.
Especially this winter
60 meteres underground? really? seems excessively deep, no?
@@oj5193 no just curious because I had no idea and was just surprised
I've had geothermal HVAC in my home for 33 years. Recently during an annual service I noticed the mounts on the compressor were rusting through. The system was still working great however I decided to replace it before it failed. The system had paid for it's self at least 2 times compared to using propane.
With as old as that system is you might want to keep an eye on the underground piping, it is likely to start failing like the mounts for the compressor.
Imagine the amount of C02 that would've emitted in the environment by burning that much amount of propane!
I just love this channel! Always great content, with great explanation. Learned something new today. Thanks.
Your explanation was very well thought out and conveyed. You have a new fan. I work in the GEO sector as an M.E. and found your presentation spot on. Great content on your other offerings as well.
Our house in Slovenia has similar system for heating. We have it for about 12 years and it works without any issiues and electricity bill is pretty low value, compared to other heating systems. All you need a decent piece of land to lay the pipes. We will build new house and I will def. consider this type of heating for the house.
I'm a HVAC tech, and I do install all type of heat pumps(including Geos) in Quebec,canada, where is is very cold in the winter. It is only worth to change a geothermal heap pump if you already have one that broked. The best thing is a mini-split type heat pump, with a converter for the air handler(24V to data on the signal). Up to 24 000 btu, they have max efficency up to -20C, from 24 000btu to 48 000btu, max efficency up to -15C. It is more small, take less current, get higher temp in heating, breaks less, more resilient to outside changes, and 1/3 of the noise compare to a regular heat pump. Almost silent in cooling. Some machine go up to -35C now, but they are more expensives. Geos will cost up to 30 000$ more on new installs. Buy Nasdac with 10% annual profit with that 30 000$ instead, you will have more money in 10 years for sure. That is my 2 cents on the subject. Geos were hot untill 5 years ago, but not anymore. Get the new shit instead. I install one per day and it is so much better.
I too am a HVAC tech and agree that Geo isn't as good as people think; many break downs, costly repairs, potential difficulties to access equipment.
@Zombie Eric Harris Air to air ductless heat pump technology has been so efficient recently that it’s the only reasonable choice especially when building a well insulated home to modern codes or better.
💯percent correct. Way too many videos and comments based on 10 to 20 year old technologies. DHP all the way
Problem with ground source heat pumps is that efficiency numbers don't include the recirculation pump's energy consumption.
Yes, absolutely! I'd love to have a Geothermal heating/cooling system! It'd be awesome for greenhouses as well 😃
I'm in a southern zone, mostly interested in the pond setup. With ground water so high locally, pond temps after the first few feet plummet, and we really need cold air more than hot most the year.
Great video! Many properties do not have the land available for geothermal systems except possibly drilling two geothermal wells.
It is so much easier to use closed loop thermal solar for heating an ultra insulated, very large, indirect(heat exchanger) hot water storage tank that would keep water hot for multiple days both for domestic hot water and radiant floor heating. Then add PV panels for electricity for household use and for running an ultra high SEER rated air conditioner.
I put in a geothermal system eight years ago, and it paid for itself in four-plus years. I had to replace my ductwork as well, and the cost for that is figured in. Still running great and one-third the cost of propane to operate. HOWEVER, since then they have developed super-efficient air-to-air heat exchangers that will even work up here in the near-Canadian north. If I had to do it over again I would definitely check that out first! But it is a win-win scenario either way.
@Man Fully Alive I just put in another Water Furnace geothermal furnace last December after the first one dead 27 years later. The first on cost about $5,000 to install the new one $17,000. The air to air heat exchange was going to be over $18,000 and I didn't get a tax rebate. Right now in the US there a 26% tax rebate you get for a new geothermal system so I get about $3,000 back.
Are air to air exchangers functional below freezing temperatures?
Matt
Thank you for a great high density learning video. Probably moving from my current home in about a year, but I am surely looking at some configuration of a closed loop gshp for our next home. I may or may not see more than just the pay back period, but so much of life is paying it forward b/c if someone doesn’t start, it doesn’t happen. Thanks again!!
Informative video, thanks!
We just had an course about this subject in the university
In finland many privet house owner are using grownheat system. It was in late -70th when it started. It will pay it self back and people are happy with it!!!
Thanks, great video. I'll surely look into this as an option when I buy a house.
i was researching this for my own future home just a few days ago. the timing of this video is blowing my mind haha
We have a geo system , downside is our electric bill is $450 low up to $900 . The unit itself was $20 G, life is maybe 20 years .
Cost a fortune to repair and after 7 years we had one of the main components go in the unit. No geo for 30 days , hard to use standby emergency power. This was pre pandemic, waiting for the parts.
I can only imagine now how long the wait would be. So $5 G for a furnace or $20 grand for a unit. Neighbor just got solar $35G . So if you had both then you would save money but how much because the upfront costs are huge . Wanted to share personal experience, there’s a lot to it
they can also add a de-super heater to a geothermal system. it's an exchanger coil that uses excess heat pulled from your home in the summer- to heat water for your house plumbing, rather than just dumping those btu's into the ground.
We have that in the loop of ours and it completely heats the water to hotter than we would ever need! When we first bought the house, it was June and the previous owners had turned the water heater completely off when they moved out the previous fall. When the temperature dropped in September that year, we thought the water heater was broken! Paid to have the plumber out, only to have him tell us it wasn't broken, just turned off LOL The loop had been keeping our water hot the whole summer all by itself!
Had a closed loop system in Michigan. Loved it, wouldn't put any other type of system in a home of mine.
Paid for itself in 3 years because the cost of propane nearley tripled after we installed it.
It's more comfortable than traditional forced air too because it doesn't blow as hard.
Can you share how much you paid for it? In New England and I'm being told it would be like $150K
@@TravelersWarden shouldn't be more than $20k or they are lying
@@jacobstrutner8232 This guy wasn't quoting me for a system. he had just put in our new air source mini splits. Just telling me the cost in the area for geotherm.
@@TravelersWarden No way it's $150k, even if it was a vertical loop, which is the most expensive setup for geothermal, it shouldn't be more than 40-45k.
Even the "high end" price on a closed horizontal loop seems to be about 30-35k.
@@reck0n3r You're absolutely right. I forgot about these comments and I had gone back and checked with my HVAC guy - it was $150K for a 20K square foot rich person's house on the beach. So....that makes more sense.
Great pacing in this video Matt! This is common practice in Sweden since many years now. We often utilize boreholes of up to 150 meters depth in a closed loop system. This kind of system can be as effective as 8 to 1 and doesn't rely so much on ambient temperatures.
Really interesting! Thanks for sharing.
I'm surprised you didn't mention some of the other benefits of having this system like it pre-heating your hot water tank and thawing out your driveway and/or patio.
Heated Floors! Nothing like walking across the tile in your bathroom and it's slightly warm. Nice.
One should use caution with pretreating water with a WSHP as a source as that type of tank storage can fall into a temperature range the promotes the growth of legionella bacteria.
Doesn't it need to be under a certain depth so it doesn't get affected by the weather? I don't think there would be any thawing of the driveway or patio.
@@samsonli9490 it is at a depth such that the weather effect is reduced, then the difference in temperature is amplified (basically you go from a huge volume of barely above outside temp water to a small volume of lukewarm water). if your driveway is way "smaller" (quotes are because it's not directly the surface area that we compare) than your underground source, you can use your source to melt the snow. The whole cycle is twisted and clever, but there is no free energy, you're cooling your underground to heat the sky.
Not just preheat, you can make hot water with ground source heat pump with no problem. It just needs pump that is capable to make hot enough water so tank is legionella safe. But it is common in europe to do this.
Excellent, comprehensive and fun to watch. Thank you for sharing and incentivized to learn more.
The vertical loop systems is now widely used in new homes here in Hungary. We are currently building a house with such system. The tubes go down about 100 meter deep into the ground.
However people here don't use a system that circulates air, many new houses have floor and ceiling heating.
it's kinda bad, as air circulation system could be combined with ventilation system to supply fresh air
@@s.i.m.c.a Floor heating provides much better comfort, and requires less energy. There is usually a separate system for air circulation that runs 24/7. We are currently building a house and there is an air vent in every room, as well as floor and ceiling heating. The fresh air from the outside also goes through a heat exchanger and a filter.
One more advantage is that during summer months, cold ground water can be circulated in the ceiling to cool down the house, which requires very little energy.
Thanks, a very useful video. As with all these technologies, they’ll work for some and not others, so great to understand what could be right for specific situations.
I’m actually looking into this for my house right now. That’s mostly why I clicked on this video. I also work for an HVAC company and they install quite a few heat pump systems in larger buildings.
My house is sitting on what appears to be highly packed sand. It is a nineteenth century house that currently uses a converted coal gas furnace to make steam. Not very efficient.
I really enjoy your channel and find your analysis helpful. I especially liked your battery electric snow blower video.
Damn bro it's 2021!😂
Had a closed loop system in a previous house and loved it. Very efficient, comfortable and reliable. Our hearing Bill's were less than half that of a traditional forced air system and our cooling bills were about 20%.
You CAN obviously supliment Ground Source Heating with Black Panel roof mounting systems (Like a solar panel, but, its black with pipes running through them) So as the sun shines down water is pumped up to the roof, through the pipes zigzagging through a set of black panels, and then back down into an insulated water tank. And you don't need to have intense summer sun to make good hot water either... 🤔😏👍😎🇬🇧
I also have a 19th century house. If you’re going to air condition as well as heat a ground source heat pump would be great! However you should also do what I did to increase the efficiency of my old house. I had no insulation and when I renovated I insulated the house and put 1 inch Styrofoam on the outside under new siding. We added all new double pane windows and cut our oil bills in half to begin with. That should make your heating and cooling much less expensive. Also you can size the heat pump up to 25% over your air conditioning load and still dehumidifier the house in the summer. Good luck!
I have a vertical system that was installed 5 years ago and I wish I had done it 20 years ago. I went from oil and coal about $400 a month in the winter (Western NY) now the electric the geo system uses is about $50 a month. Best investment I've made.
thanks for all the numbers! It was very informative.
I have a ground source heat pump (UK) and it’s one of the best upgrades I’ve made to our house. The RHI is great and the pump has been faultless. Fantastic technology.
Hi, what brand have you purchased, thanks
@@sghinescu9768 Kensa
How much did all the system costed you without installation, how many Kw...much appreciated
I was really confused by the oversimplified diagram when you said "the heat pump compresses the liquid." Without showing the refrigerant loop as what is being compressed, that really threw me off. I was thinking that would need to be one hell of a compressor. :) Thanks for the video. As always very informative and well put together.
Yeah, I may have oversimplified things.
Liquids aren’t compressible. Just saying.
@@UndecidedMF Yeah it we really needed to show the refrigerant to water heat exchanger that acts as the condenser or evaporator depending on heating or cooling mode. I know how this works already so it was good enough for me, but the diagrams looked weird. I paused at 2:38 to put this out here :)
@@maxmintz511 That's not *exactly* true, they just have very very small compressibility compared to gases. Even solids can be compressed, at an even smaller amount.
Yep. That animation is just plain wrong.
I live in upstate NY and have a 2600 Sq ft house. My geothermal system through dandelion is $ 44,000 for a 6 ton system before incentives and $23000 after incentives. This also includes a 80 gallon residential geothermal hot water tank.
I have a vertical closed loop system in Winnipeg Canada for 15 years. Works great for both heating and cooling
I agree with other comments that it is surprising they are not more common
I know it can go to below -40 in the winter. How well does it work at these temperatures?
I live in northern Ontario.
since I live in Sweden, almost every home built uses closed-loop GSHP (well over 90%). Our house only has a 60m deep hole, but that is coupled with an air-air exchanger. The term used in Sweden is "mountain-heating" ie using the heat stored in the igneous rock beneath most homes. We use an 11kw heating system for our 2300sqft home. It didn't cost that much comparatively - around 20kusd including the drilling and took about 2 days to install. A bonus is that we have under-floor heating in the entire house. Our COP is around 4,2 which is pretty common. I will note that after about 15 years you might need to re-drill the hole in the ground to ensure good heat exhange.
The Scandinavians should take over the world. You guys would have the rest of us sorted in a decade.
I remember touring a civ eng's house, in college, that had geothermal in a 2nd basement floor that also worked in line with a commercial freezer room on that same basement floor, with a smaller second pump up in the attic.
It was nuts. Garden beds were also heated >_>
🤯 he/she definitely needs to do a virtual tour one day
Put in my system late summer 2020, Twin Cities area. I just started my second heating season. I really like my system. Last winter I only needed gas back up for a few days.
We bought our current home with an aging but still functional 21-yr-old Waterfurnace. Since the ground loop was already installed, it was a no-brainer when the time came to upgrade. We now have a Waterfurnace Series 7 and its pretty amazing TBH
I'm studying HV-AC engineering and literally started a project on geothermal heat pumps this week. This video comes in very handy ! Great content as always 😊
I am at the other end of your scale a retired Refrigeration /AC engineer one of the best jobs ever you will get to places most people never see.
Hey Matt, I can provide some perspective as I am a license heating contractor in Maine. I have just my LP and Nat gas tech license with my tank setting and exterior piping endorsement. One of the biggest set backs to using refrigeration for heating is that in the Northeast and anywhere else it gets well below freezing is going to be very inefficient. Mini-splits are a great source of heating for the fringe seasons like spring and fall where it's too hot to run the wood or pellet stove. The biggest gripe is the massive power requirement the colder it gets outside. This is why Mini-splits aren't as widely used as anywhere else in the country. In a home that requires a new boiler, the average running cost of a brand new system with all new piping, circulators and controls; all said and done is around $10,000 USD. Natural Gas, Propane and even Oil are a much better alternative in the coldest environments. Especially when there are snow storms that knock the power out for days at a time, you can't rely on the power grid for heat. There are ways to use wood heat that are almost as efficient as high efficiency boilers. I have been meaning to at some point try making an underground loop to use with a liquid cooled mini-split to see how it would heat in the winter time. Using loops to exchange energy to and from the ground is the perfect solution for getting past the inefficiency of cold climates. The ambient ground temp 5 feet underground outside my house is around 50 degrees, I have measured it before and this would be a great temperature to use for the mini-split. Making it much easier for the unit to make heat will greatly increase the life and efficiency of the unit, as well as make it so that it could even be used with an off grid back up system.
Absolutely!!! It’s just too cold in the Northeast!
My parents have had a horizontal system in Canada for almost 15 years. In floor heat and a few air units for AC has worked amazing. Only heating I'll ever want, with a nice wood stove of course ;)
Our experience: 280m2=3000 ft2 house with vertically drilled loop (110meters=360ft deep) works like a charm for 15 years. The costs were low. $5000 for the drilling, $500 for the tubing, $2000 for the unit and the filling is distilled water mixed with methylated alcohol both bought from local distillery for $500. For about $8000 we got no maintenance heating, that lasts for generations.
I went with a regular A/C install in my house. Just couldnt afford geothermal at this time, but it's definitely a goal of mine within the next 5 years
it really isnt very affordable unless you are talking new construction or just have an extra $10K burning a hole in your pocket...then there is almost no reason to not install it...digging the pit for the system doesn't cost much when you already have the earth mover to make your foundation and what ever landscaping you are doing before the home build begins...it really cuts the cost of installation.
With a whole bunch of real estate appraisers in the family is it worth the cost. YES.
of course....if your buyers dont have to incur the initial cost
Not likely a big benefit in resale dollars but likely a great benefit to interest a buyer in that house vs. one without.
.. straight to hell, enjoy the trip.
@@kermit56780 I bet you are a blast a parties
The appraisers really don't care. All they're concerned about is whether the house is heated and/or cooled. A prospective buyer will care, though.
I'm planning on building a home soon, and this helped out a lot with choosing a heating/cooling decision.
I live in the country and have always considered geothermal but have yet to act on it!
I will move in this direction soon!
Thank you for the evaluation
Just as a small international information for you. Here in Switzerland, our House (consisting of 8 seperate appartements) just inquired what would the price for a horizontal Heat Pump be and we all were shocked by the stagerying 120'000-180'000 CHF (that converted to USD is around 7%higher) and thus we will most likely just swap out our heater for a new oil powered one (price around 20'000)
so the price differences can be a lot higher than in your examples.
Still good video and have a nice day :)
Check on cost of vertical system… and his was talking about a single house, you said yours was for 8 apartments….
In Switzerland everything is 2-3 times more expensive than elsewhere. Especially when it comes to specialised work you cannot do yourself. I also live in CH and found that costs between companies can vary wildly. I would ask at least 3-4 quotes and ask them to provide you with an ROI calculation vs oil. Theirs margins are ridiculous, if you challenge them, you will be surprised. Most work with developers, who just pass down the costs to new house buyers without questioning them. They have gotten used to this easy way of making money. Electricians are the worst in my opinion.
I put in a closed loop geothermal system in MD in mid-2018. The house we bought had a 30 year old oil system that was failing. Cost was higher than normal because we had to have the oil tank removed and update the chimney. Thought I'd have to deal with 2 contractors, ended up being 6. After federal and state incentives it came out to ~$16K. Would have been ~9K had we gone with gas or air source heat pump. So far very happy! Though I have yet to sit down and chew the numbers to see when the break even will be.
where do you live?
@@raullasvegas MD. Maryland ?
Maryland, the state referenced in the video that has a $3000 grant for geothermal
@@EdwardRomano My apologies, You said that in your comment. Is there a lower temperature limit for your system? If the outside temp is too cold, does the heat pump still work?
Once you go a few feet down the earth is consistently ~55 degrees no matter where you are. A ground source heat pump is just like an air source heat pump, its just using the 55 degree earth for it's heat exchange instead of the ambient air. An air source heat pump can create heat on even very cold days and cold on even very hot days. Ground source heat pumps are more efficient because they only ever operate at 55 degrees no matter what time of year it is.
I got geothermal in my home in Upstate NY (vertical closed loop); very happy with both the heat and AC.
I heard many new things, nice work, interesting and useful, thank you!
Immediately subscribe to this channel, I love geothermal system.
Air-source heat pumps (especially with inverters) have really come a long way in efficiency and cold-climate performance, so in many climate zones it's more cost effective long term to install a cold climate air source heat pump than a ground source heat pump with the ground loop costs. Ground temperature is effectively the year-round average air temperature, so there are times of the year where a ground source system is outright less efficient than an air source system.
For new construction, improved insulation and building quality (air and vapor tightness) can more economically make the required heating and cooling system much smaller than a traditional house, which further reduces the cost effectiveness of geothermal with the high upfront cost of digging and installing the ground loop.
That doesn't mean geothermal should never be used, but it really depends on your climate and you really need to consider what the COP of each system will be over the year.
Also (from my basic understanding) Air source heat pumps have the ability to modulate, allowing them to slowly ramp up and down heating and cooling more efficiently. As far as I can find Ground source units do not seem to do this and seem to be more ON/OFF units
Most whole-house heat pumps you would buy from US manufacturers can't modulate either (other than possibly being 2-stage). Only newer inverter heat pumps can modulate, and these are the highest efficiency units.
Geothermal and Air to Air Heat pump and cooling units come in inverter types.
This allows them to operate as low as 25% up to 100% efficiency.
I disagree. In a norther European climate at least, we need heat for around six months of the year, when air temperatures are at their lowest. ASHP are less efficient when air temperatures drop. Ground temperatures are almost constant, and in the winter are several degrees higher than air temperatures, so it makes more sense to use ground systems where space and finances allow.
Air source heat pumps work terribly in colder climates, even with great insulation.
Great video - concise, detailed and informative. Thank you.
Thanks for the details, Im planning my new build on 3.2 acres, very hot hot summers, and cold cold winters. south facing hill side, (Canada) main goal, self sufficient energy use, make it, store it , use it... no monthly bills
I've had geo thermal installed for about 10 years now in Tennessee. Very little maintenance. Still have supplementary getting for when the temps drop below 0 for long periods.
We switched from oil to geothermal 2 years ago and it's great. Greener, cheaper and actually heats the house up better.
Why is it greener? Instead of oil you are now using electric
This is exactly the heating system I need and I'm going to build it! Thank you Matt Ferrell.
Did you do it? If so would love to hear how!
An informative introduction. An application I have not seen much (detailed) coverage regarding, is the transition (equipment wise) from GHP to Hydronic ('in floor' in a house).
My aunt had one put in about 35 years ago, and it lasted 33 years without problems.
And what happened 2 years ago?..
@@Steellmor Mechanical failure eventually happens in every system, they likely had to pull the piping out and replace it.
@@SilvaDreams I was just curious what exactly happened since he already mentioned it and the way he did it was kinda funny and intriguing.
@@SilvaDreams pull the piping out and replace it??? its more like the heat pump its self needed fixing. not much to go wrong with the piping.
We live in northeastern Canada and have been looking into a geothermal system for new construction, would love to include it in the plans, but the costs are a huge deterrent.
Somehow I missed this video of yours back when you posted it. When I got my house here in NH a few years back it did not have and cooling for the summer. Went 1 summer without AC and that was it. I went with a air source Mitsubishi High Efficiency Heat Pump. Honestly this was a great upgrade giving us AC and heat in the winter and combined with solar it's been great and comfortable. That said, doing it over again I would likely consider going geothermal. Looking at the install costs, what it cost to install the air source gets me a good of the way towards a geo system.
If it's any comfort, there's plenty of other options for efficiency, and the best way is to reduce total heating and cooling! High efficiency windows now are coming at at R-5 to R-7, and proper sealing of doors and windows are essentially leakless. Home ventilation ERVs can replace options like 'trickle vents' and high efficiency wall insulation in concert with these measures can reduce your total heating load to half of the amount shown here or less. That's the best way to save energy.
The house I grew up in was built in 1975 and had a heat pump. We also had a supplemental oil furnace. In a middle Atlantic state south of the Mason Dixon line, we needed that furnace every year, but Dad always resisted.
I believe our apartment complex (northern midwest) uses them too, because the forced air we have in the winter is NEVER warm. We can't have space heaters, so we shiver all winter long. If we ever build our own house, we will have a heat pump (for the aircon) and a fireplace or a woodstove.
Great video, but you missed the probe ground source option, here in Europe it's the most common solution which does not require too much space in your garden.
I have two probes of 100m length, each of them in 90m depth, you need only a borehole, not much space, I use it for heating, cooling and sanitary warm water, In my case the calculation is about 7-8 years to be even compared to natural gas/elecricity, if I would use other heating/cooling solutions. And as you mentioned closed systems are the best for the long run
i installed Geothermal closed loop in my house when i built it in 2005. 4000sq ft ranch, 25,000 install cost. average bill per month is 250 year round. that includes heating and cooling my 36x40 garage.
That's pretty expensive
@@christophervanzetta for a 4000sqft house and a garage that seems pretty good to me, but I suppose that depends on what’s heating or cooling your house. Propane is much more expensive than natural gas, and electric heating is kind of expensive too. I’ve lived in apartments with 1000sqft and paid $80/month in gas during the winter. If I scaled that to 4000 sqft that $250/mo seems good to me.
@@christophervanzetta your right. It was put in in 2005 when Geothermal was rather rare in michigan. its much cheaper now. However it did include two 200 gallon water heaters and the electrical panel.
I pay the same for two natural gas units and two AC coils (central air) in Iowa. Each unit cost $1200 installed. same square footage. Sorry to say but it will be the next home owner that will recoup the cost of your Geothermal
Great presentation. Thank you for your time and effort to make this video and share it with us. Greetings from Croatia.
I like geothermal, but I love the consistency and clarity of your infographics in your videos.
My father in law put one in his house 15+ years ago and raves about it. He pays very little for heat in Sudbury, On, where it gets quite cold.
We ended up with a heat pump in our house as electricity in QC is cheap and we over-insulated the house.
15 years - wow
we over-insulated the house --- ?!?! you cannot do it easily, compared to what?! ;-)
I have a cousin who bought a home with geothermal. He was initially not in favor of it, but over time came to like it.
Over time his opinion....exchanged thermal energy.
@Chris Tombs 🙄
Had a home built in 94. My builder tried to talk me out of installing an $11k system. It paid for itself in roughly 5 years. It's a fantastic a/c unit and keeps your home steady temperature in winter. Only draw back is you might want a wood burning stove for those super cold days, like we get in Michigan winters, because the system is sized to 10 degrees on the cold side. On a side note my builder threw his closed loop in a pond to save on the installation costs and loves his system. In the dead of winter my worst heating Bill was about $130, while my builders ng furnace was costing him $300 a month. The house was 1800 square foot ranch with a finished basement and stayed super cool all summer long. I thing electric bills for cooling were $30 to $50 a month. If you can do your own trenching or have a pond, your installation costs could be seriously reduced.
We live in southern Wisconsin and our closed loop, horizontal system has been great but it has struggled when we have a polar vortex or long stretches of cold temps in the teens and below.
@@jamescassidy5797 yup they're sized to be efficient, so you definitely want a wood burner or something else for backup.
I think like most homes / builders, undersized systems save the build cost. The builders pocket the savings, the home owners stuck with a unit that won't perform when temperatures are extreme or the unit ages. I installed for years, if the home required a 2.5 ton HP, I bumped to 3 ton with at least a 10kw strip. If 3 ton was close I jumped to 4 ton, or zoned it if was a 2 story. Just installed a propane gas furnace with a HP, in my rental home and t-stat set to 40 degrees. 40 or above HP will give you all the heat the home needs, below 40 burns propane. Very efficient and can get into single digits and the house is comfortable. If I build more homes I'm investing in premium windows, closed cell foam insulation and a ground loop HP with a gas fireplace, as a auxiliary form of heat. I live in the land of retirement homes at the Delaware beaches. Older people like heat. Me too.
How many square feet of area would a pond need to be ? I'm wondering if I put in a 10'x40' lap pool that was only 4' feet deep, and ran the piping under a vinyl pool liner would that be of any use for a heat pump ? Southern California desert so more a cooling climate than a heating one. A pool that would hold 1300 gallons and it takes 8.33btu to raise each gallon 1F, so 11,000btu for each degree of heat it absorbs. A 36,000btu/h heat pump would transfer 3.3F per hour to the pool ? Doesn't seem right.
@@jamescassidy5797 That's what the wood burner is for, those extreme cold days!
I know a guy who got geothermal setup for his house. He installed it before his house was built. That helped in assembly costs.
I am a big fan of my 3 ton geothermal system. It really didn’t cost me that much more than installing a conventional system or an air source heat pump and the savings are significant.
When building a new house think of the 6 P's. To me it would make sense to install GHC under every house being constructed and drastically reduce the overall cost. Give people a more affordable option then after the fact.
A massive thank you from Germany. I love your videos !
This is considered one of the best methods to have a heating in one's home here in Finland. Only downside is higher cost at the beginning but in a long run it has stood the test of time.
Great video, thanks. I live in Europe (@52 deg N) and I have recently built a new house. Due to limitations on site size, I installed an air to water heat pump as the sole heat source. I am really pleased with the result. Complete house has underfloor heating. There is currently a serious drive here in Europe to get away completely from fossil fuels and reduce CO2 emissions. Perhaps this air to water system could be an option for people in the US also, particularly in Urban areas where availability of ground for Geothermal is severely limited.
In really cold places like the northern parts of Europe it may be cost efficient. In the Netherlands (where I’m from) with a relatively mild climate it’s just to expensive to install. An air/water heatpump works just as well here, one-third of the install costs, similar electrical costs.
yup. the kind of ground you have matters a lot too. Just the cost to dig can skyrocket with these systems.
Several remote offices had geothermal installed with vertical wells with the agency I worked. They were nothing but trouble. One was replaced with horizontal slinky system. It was the only system with which we had no problems. The others seemed plagued with issues.
Very informative. Thank you!
DUDE. I was literally just considering this as a replacement for my ailing A/C and dino-burner.
Excellent cursory overview. The system I acquired back in '95 utilized my existing well as a source and needed only a return well whose cost was significantly cheaper than a regular well since it merely received outflow. Any of the other type systems impress me as cost prohibitive and risky still. It also seems the land used the in ground structure would be sacrificed for any other use and there may be some environmental trade offs to be considered.
Awesome content, thank you so much!