Enjoyed that analysis. The Seekers were another great Australian folk pop band from the 60's. They had so many great hits including "A World Of Our Own", "Georgy Girl", "Morningtown Ride", "I'll Never Find Another You", "Someday, One Day" etc. They had such beautiful voices & harmonies. Sad that Judith Durham passed away last year. They don't make nostalgic music like this anymore. Reminds me of a simpler time.
Agreed. I love their music. Did you ever hear the song they wrote about Australia? It should be their national anthem: ruclips.net/video/ZOlPCmFG2pc/видео.html
They make you nostalgic music all the time (maybe not like The Seekers), it just won't be considered nostalgic for another 40 or 50 years. Although I saw a 23-year-old reminiscing about a song from when she was 16 that brought her back to her "youth".
Her slightly flat pitch suits the subject matter of the song - sad breakup. Thanks for analysing and explaining pitch. It helps us listen more carefully to other singers.
Also-your explanation is absolutely correct. In mid-1960s recording studios, they would commonly create a "scratch track" of one or more instruments, specifically for the vocalist to sing to. Then, the instruments would play the parts that were truly intended for the final version. Between that and the possibility of variations in the speed of tape machines, it was common for this to happen. This was explained very clearly when I visited the Stax recording studio in Memphis a few years ago. They demonstrated how those great early recordings were done, and emphasized that the technology just could not be perfectly accurate from a technical standpoint. And if you make it to the US sometime, I can highly recommend a trip to Stax studios and museum in Memphis. You'd love it!
Greatest female singer ever! No other can come close to Judith. Also one of the most beautiful, both physically and personally. A monumental loss to world, go listen to Judith singing her first love, Jazz (listen to her sing Sister Kate). On top of all that she was a superb pianist as well. Always will love Our Judith!
Spot on Fil about false advertising and that the people have a right to know what they are buying . Thanks to you Fil the audience has become more educated about this which will hold the producers feet to the fire more
Thumbs up Fil you are always informative never boring. Each member of the Seekers is talented in their own rights as a group they jelled perfectly vocally and musically. Athol Guy - double bass, backing vocals Keith Potger - lead guitar, banjo, backing and lead vocals Bruce Woodley - rhythm guitar, banjo, backing and lead vocals Judith Durham - lead and backing vocals, piano
I honestly can't hear it as "off." It sounds so good to me. And what a beautiful tremolo. I just love Judith's voice. Your explanation is so very astute - about the tape possible running ever-so-slightly slow and therefore being ever-so-slightly flat - and her keeping with it throughout! You are brilliant!! (but, I still can't hear it ☺)
Thank you, Fil!! You have a great ability of keeping your video messages very interesting! Your channel is the only one I listen to until the end. I love how upbeat and positive the explanations are. I also love that you say the nicest things about every artist you’ve analyzed. I want you to know how important that is. Your videos are detailed, and respectful. It defines who you are as a professional musician. You’re the best. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us! You Rock! 😊
I was lucky enough to see Judith in concert on her sixtieth birthday at the South Bank. She was brilliant and showed what a good pianist too as she studied piano to a high standard. I felt the love for her from everybody there.
hi fil i am using my brothers email. my name is charlena . i am from caldwell, idaho . you are doing a great job. what do you think of dusty sprinfield singing.
I’ve always admired Judith’s angelic voice. Thanks, Fil, for explaining why she was flat for a bit of that song - and for your stellar communications chops.
I keep thinking that I don't remember the Seekers, but then I see their songs and realize that I llistened to them a LOT. Good analysis. I saw another channel talking about singers singing flat, and she had made some comments, and she had to add salt and pepper since she ended up with so much egg on her face, I've watched one or two other analysis videos recently, and realize that I don't like most of them. Which is why I really was hesitant when I clicked on one of yours when you had 13K subs. But I liked what you said, I watched another, and another, and subbed, and now I still don't like most analysis videos, but I like Wings of Pegasus. Lots.
I always assumed that she was flat because of the lyrics she was singing...creating an atmosphere with her voice. Your analysis is a much more educated one. Thank you!
I can relate, it was our mum’s favourite in the ‘60’s & we all used to sit around watching the Seekers specials together or listening to their records ❤@@SLB4523
Absolutely BRILLIANT! As a recording singer in studio for many years, you have answered a big conundrum for me! Thrilled the pitch correction software is back! Bravo!!🎉
Wow, brilliant deductive analysis of Judith Durham on this song,Fil. The seekers were so unique. They were a huge hit whilst on tour in the UK. I’ll Never Find Another You was my absolute fav during this amazing time for the Seekers.
Thanks, great sleuthing! Agree, she heard something that was flat, and followed it. This happens often when someone has a great relative ear -- but not absolute.
Judith was the pop female voice of the 60s and Karen was the pop female voice of the 70s. Judith's voice was amazing. The backing track being off makes sense.
@ohger1 thats about the response i'd expect from someone that thinks karen is anything more than second rate. Weak voice, not much range, and really quite monotone.
Speaking of the Beatles during live performances, John, Paul, & George all said in interviews, that due to the screaming crowds the only way they knew where they were in the songs, was by feeling the beat of Ringo on the drums. The Beatles chief recording engineer was a genius on giving John the sounds of his voice he wanted in sections of the songs, by slowing down or speeding up the recorded tapes and splicing them together to where you didn't notice this in the finished recording.
@@aygul386 Actually in interviews John thought some of the songs Paul wrote & sang would've sounded better if he had san them. He would do it to give his songs a particular sound he felt worked better for the song.
I appreciate you calling out how difficult it can be for a singer in a live situation when they can't hear their own voice in the mix. I'm still healing some old trauma over that hahaha!
Your explanation of a slightly flat guide track makes sense. Thanks for showing this to us. Most people at that time were probably so busy listening to the beauty of her voice and to the lyrics, they didn't even notice the 17 cents. Everything else is labeled these days. Consumers should know the autotune truth about recordings and live performances.
Not being able to hear myself, or my guitar on stage was the most disorienting thing I ever experienced. After playing lead in a blues jam, a guy said he liked what I did, but the borrowed amp must be why I didn't really get into it. I told him I never heard a single note I played and he said always buy the sound man a drink, and smiled. You are a fountain of knowledge and experience Fil. Rock on.
This was a really interesting look at where a studio can make a slight mistake, in turn, slightly affecting a great singer’s performance. I love that you discovered how uniformly the pitch was off, and the probable reason. Like you said, with a great singer, and the fact that the majority of the song was on-pitch, it didn’t effect the popularity and success of that song. I’m going to go listen to the whole song.
I remember batteries being low on a cassette deck on a road trip for a student group and a John Denver song playing a little slow and off Key. My old reel to reel had a nob on it to make small adjustments to speed. It was something that I always had to check.
I don't know if it's related to the flatness but ever since I first heard that song as a kid I've really liked the intro - it sounds very warm and human
Hi Fil, A very packed full video today. I think you are right that she is singing from a taped track or accompaniment and that is what makes her vocal part seem off/flat. Because as you demonstrated on the pitch monitoring screen it was all consistently flat. She was singing to the music she was given. That being said, and either way, Judith has a lovely beautiful voice. And even the flatness works within the context of the song. And as you pointed out it is very important that as a singer, you are able to hear yourself. Thanks for doing this video and vocal analysis. And good points made on some things the music industry should think about. Lots to delve into with this one… great job summing this all up… Have a great night….Debbie☮️
Thank You. Judith Durham has always been one of my favorite vocalists. The '60s were a more simpler time, especially in folk. I like how you break it down and explain how auto tune works these days.
I always wondered why this song didn't work for me. I've been told I have perfect relative pitch, but not perfect absolute pitch.And I'm neither a musician or a singer, but a musician/producer friend heard me whistling and was impressed at ability to hit notes. So he tested me and that's what he ended up telling me. When she (tries to) hit that first G4 note, I've always known that was flat, to the point that I can actually feel it. Everything else she's done was so beautiful, I frequently hold her up as the epitome of a female pop/folk singer when I'm discussing how awful singers are on some of the "reality" TV shows. No acrobatics, no showing off, no riffing, ,just a clean, tasteful singer. Singing to a flat backing track was kind of my suspicion all along, but you have confirmed it for me. Bravo and rock on!
I grew up in the 60s listening to the Beach Boys, the Beatles & the Seekers, your analysis makes sense regarding her singing pitch. I maybe wrong but I think she started out as a jazz singer & didn't really want to do folk but that's how things go! Keep up the good work Phil I love your channel
I totally agree with charlesclay comment above. The slightly flat way the first part of the song was sung added to the emotional feel of the song, it’s a sad song and she’s heartbroken, her voice slightly flat makes that expression more believable/real. In the sixties there were exceptional singers who were on key performing live. They were great technicians in the sense of telling a story using their innate arsenal of vocal abilities. They knew that sometimes the song was emotively better when it wasn’t pitch perfect, ie just flat or sharp and sliding into or out of the notes. Whether these vocals were deliberate or accidentally flat, it added to the song. The proof is in the pudding, it was a huge success.
It may be flat,but she holds it very well. This group was one of the finest sounds of the 60's. At the time, I never knew they were from Australia. Whenever I hear them, it takes me right back to when I was 6 or 7 years old. This is not one of their better songs, but her voice is still a great memory.
Sorry to disagree, but "Carnival" IS actually one of their better songs. It was by far The Seekers biggest hit in the UK...the top selling single of 1965.
I'm not so sure Judith didn't know what she was singing. You'd think that when they heard the final release, the band would hear her vocal not being what they expected and rerecord that part, but they allowed it to go out like that. That tells me that was how they wanted it, and I agree with them. The flat intro gives the song a slightly depressed and sad mood. Perhaps that was her intent.
But did they have the technology back then to correct the error without re-recording the whole song again? It might have been record label's call that it was good enough and not worth the expense.
I’m an Aussie, and I used to listen to The Seekers when I was very young. This particular song always makes me feel like crying. I love The Seekers. Regret never seeing them live. And, I’d rather listen to a non-perfect human voice than I would a robot. Please nobody ‘correct’ it… The trouble with today’s world is that ‘everything is the same’ and computers rule our lives. ‘Art’ isn’t perfect… it’s not meant to be. One of my favourite artists, Bobby Darin, certainly didn’t have a perfect voice, and he always said so… but, wow could he deliver and entertain and make you feel that he was singing ‘directly to you’. I’m going to post this one too😉
Dude, You NEVER fail to surprise. You need an agent..It' so tough, because there are no more real radio stations per se'. But as you do incorporate so many visuals, some, just ONE of the viewers here, with any actual influence..Pls. find THIS TALENTED YOUNG MAN A SLOT ON A Television MUSIC PROGRAM.😊 The spectrum of music that you cover without any bias, is just astounding. Thank you!
I am really glad that Fil's video has introduced The Carnival is Over to perhaps hundreds of viewers who have never heard of this song. Unfortunately, the 3 remaining Seekers have stated that they will not be performing together as a group any more. I guess Judith Durham is irreplaceable.
I believe "Carnival" did enter the AC charts in the USA, but not the general Billboard Pop charts. So it must have gotten at least SOME airplay. But obviously not enough...a great song gone begging.
"Rockin' George Leah, lead singer from the horn band "Swallow" (two great albums, without a dud on either of them), and who opened for J. Geils regularly had his own scale and used it to great and profound affect. He is still beloved in New England for those of us who were around in the Seventies. He sang the blues wicked, sort of like a David Clayton Thomas monotone, but even more moving imho..
Thank you for another enlightening and enjoyable analysis video, Fil, and I suspect your reasoning is spot on. I could hear that Judith's vocals sounded flat, not pitchy, initially and once you started analyzing the notes my science mind immediately jumped to a playback/tape speed issue of some kind. For me, one of the pleasures of listening to older recordings is knowing they have all of the perfections and flaws of what were essentially "live" recordings in the studio.
I remember when The Carnival is Over first came out and thinking at the time that Judith deliberate sang the first few lines flat to add pathos. You can feel the sadness in her tone and it fades when the accompaniment joins in to cheer her up a bit. Perhaps it was accidental as you suggest but it helped make the song unique and great.
Agree totally that we, as "consumers" of music, should be informed if the singer's voice has been modified by technology. That goes double for anything recorded prior 1997 but now remastered & released. We deserve to hear real voices, real emotion, and if a recording been tampered with I want to know.
Even back then, very high quality tape recorders (such as the 12 channel Gould recorders on submarines) used one channel for a reference frequency generated from a crystal controlled circuit. Upon playback, the machine monitored the frequency on the reference channel and instantaneously adjusted the tape speed to correct errors.
Great analysis of a great singer Fil. Judith had such an amazing voice. Fil I have a request for you. Can you do an analysis of Ronnie Hammond of my favorite Southern Rock Band Atlanta Rhythm Section. They were such a talented group of Studio Musicians. Thank you
I've done live in-ear monitor mixing and it seems in-ear monitors are especially susceptible to the flat perception phenomenon you described. I think it's something about the airtight seal.
Slightly off course, but it's amazing how different chart success can be from country to country. This song didn't even make the top 100 in the U.S., yet was #1 in England and in other countries. Here in the states charts varied widely even from city to city back then. I imagine it's different these days, with radio stations being run very differently, and the internet playing a big role as well.
I love how you go back and forth in time. Can you make the top of the pitch monitoring view not get cut off? The note (A4 etc) gets cut off - it’s nice to be able to see the high/low notes since I don’t read music. Your channel is great👍🏻
I was around 8 years old when this song was released in 1963. You can hear her the flatness in isolation. The Seekers were a fantastic harmonising group, but I was too young to really form an opinion, but from what I've heard in Golden Oldies. I saw Barry White and to be honest he sang so low C3 - A4, it would have been hard to say whether he sang slightly flat or sharp, lol, but he was a great performer. Judith Durham left The Seekers in July 1968. Thanks Fil another great post 🤘
@@Oesterreicher94 Hi, tbh I had to look it up as that concert was many years ago and C3 - A4 is what they were quoting. My search criteria was " Barry White, vocal range ". I enjoyed the concert and he has the lowest bass voice I think I have ever heard.
@@thepagan5432 Thanks for explaining - yeah, they were definitely wrong about his range, then. C3 - C5 is regarded as the extended tenor range. Barry White was certainly not a tenor. He surely could hit most notes in the second octave. I guess he could have hit A4s, as well, with the proper technique - I am too badly informed about his voice to know.
@@Oesterreicher94 No problem at all. I think I know a thing, but often life knows better so I use the web to find the answer, but always use a few sites to reassure myself. Barry White was an awesome singer , but within 3 minutes of starting he would be drenched with perspiration.
It is well known that Judith was an absolute perfectionist, that there is a flat note in I'll Never Find Another You and she was terribly upset about it! RIP Judith.
For me, Judith's opening vocal. albeit a bit flat, captures perfectly the sense of sadness and melancholy within the song. The pitch-corrected version just sounds too bright and cheery for my taste.
Your remarks starting around 10:06 about singers singing live maybe sounding off-key reminds me of the Beatles' performances - Oh! there you are talking about it now!! Exactly what I was going to say - they couldn't hear a darn thing, but were always perfectly on key!!
I stopped the video @3:16 to say, It's the drummers fault. It's always the drummers fault, whether it is, or is not, as a frontman of old, I took an oath, (discussed & agreed to with my Bass player, of course), to do exactly this- Just so we start out on the proper footing here... ..
A very good explanation. I found many years ago, that in order to sing in key, I have to be able to hear my own voice. Nasal singers can hear their own voices naturally.
Tape speed is something Prince played with a lot…. He used it to record as his alter ego (female) name he used escapes me. He also used a lot of aliases. Lol
I love your rants, Fil, always on target! You made some excellent points here, one about the micromanaging that producers are doing with music these days. Would this song have been a bigger hit with pitch correction at the beginning? Very unlikely. So why bother? Another really good point for me, that I never thought about before, was how difficult it must have been for the Beatles to sing when they couldn't hear themselves through all the screaming! I think you are right that they don't get enough credit for that, because that's not something the average person would think of. Finally, I think at some point, with the rapid development of AI, the music industry is going to have to have some kind of regulation and transparency about how the music is produced, or lose all credibility completely. I still think, in the mean time, it would make sense for artists that don't use autotune or pitch correction to advertise that.
I can't recall having ever heard this song, but I do know Georgy Girl. For me, the original sounds right not just better than the pitch corrected version, but then I also don't think visually that the original was very far off the line. At this time, some musicians were experimenting with discordant sounds in songs like Good Vibrations or some post Yoko Beatles songs. In this case though, it seems she was just harmonizing with a slightly out of tune instrument. Agree about the label - if it is thought that language labels are needed, surely this type of label would be of value as well. Thanks!
I couldn’t tell and I think I like the sound of her voice on the first one better. Interesting about the proficiency of the Beatles being able to stay in tune amid all the screaming.
There was only one Judith Durham and her music with The Seekers is timeless and live forever in our hearts. R.I.P.
Enjoyed that analysis. The Seekers were another great Australian folk pop band from the 60's. They had so many great hits including "A World Of Our Own", "Georgy Girl", "Morningtown Ride", "I'll Never Find Another You", "Someday, One Day" etc. They had such beautiful voices & harmonies. Sad that Judith Durham passed away last year. They don't make nostalgic music like this anymore. Reminds me of a simpler time.
Aw, she did? I feel like every time I discover someone... I learn they have recently died. She had such a beautiful, expressive voice!
Agreed. I love their music. Did you ever hear the song they wrote about Australia? It should be their national anthem: ruclips.net/video/ZOlPCmFG2pc/видео.html
@@E3ECO
That’s such a beautiful song!
Judith sings like an angel!
Thank you for sharing that link!
They make you nostalgic music all the time (maybe not like The Seekers), it just won't be considered nostalgic for another 40 or 50 years. Although I saw a 23-year-old reminiscing about a song from when she was 16 that brought her back to her "youth".
Thanks, excellent informative explanation, I think Judith’s tone in the initial solo adds to the melancholic sentiment she is singing about.
After hearing the corrected version, I had the same thought. It sounded too vibrant and uplifting, compared to the original "flat" recording.
This is what I was thinking too. I got goosebumps from it. That’s my way of knowing something is right.
The corrected version sounded more common to me. I prefer the uncorrected one which sounded more unique.
Judith Durham corrects the pitch correction software.
Her slightly flat pitch suits the subject matter of the song - sad breakup. Thanks for analysing and explaining pitch. It helps us listen more carefully to other singers.
Absolutely spot on.
exactly. always thought it was an artistic choice
Also-your explanation is absolutely correct. In mid-1960s recording studios, they would commonly create a "scratch track" of one or more instruments, specifically for the vocalist to sing to. Then, the instruments would play the parts that were truly intended for the final version. Between that and the possibility of variations in the speed of tape machines, it was common for this to happen. This was explained very clearly when I visited the Stax recording studio in Memphis a few years ago. They demonstrated how those great early recordings were done, and emphasized that the technology just could not be perfectly accurate from a technical standpoint. And if you make it to the US sometime, I can highly recommend a trip to Stax studios and museum in Memphis. You'd love it!
One of our treasures here in Australia, she was a beauty both in and out 😍
What a singer. Miss her a lot. Thanks for this analysis.
Greatest female singer ever! No other can come close to Judith. Also one of the most beautiful, both physically and personally. A monumental loss to world, go listen to Judith singing her first love, Jazz (listen to her sing Sister Kate). On top of all that she was a superb pianist as well. Always will love Our Judith!
The feelings Judith's singing can raise are unique. The greatest of all times.
Spot on Fil about false advertising and that the people have a right to know what they are buying .
Thanks to you Fil the audience has become more educated about this which will hold the producers feet to the fire more
Thumbs up Fil you are always informative never boring.
Each member of the Seekers is talented in their own rights
as a group they jelled perfectly vocally and musically.
Athol Guy - double bass, backing vocals
Keith Potger - lead guitar, banjo, backing and lead vocals
Bruce Woodley - rhythm guitar, banjo, backing and lead vocals
Judith Durham - lead and backing vocals, piano
What an incredible singer she was , your video proves what a class act she was 👍RIP Judith
I honestly can't hear it as "off." It sounds so good to me. And what a beautiful tremolo. I just love Judith's voice. Your explanation is so very astute - about the tape possible running ever-so-slightly slow and therefore being ever-so-slightly flat - and her keeping with it throughout! You are brilliant!! (but, I still can't hear it ☺)
Almost as if the emotion of actual parting had “Got to her”.
Thank you, Fil!!
You have a great ability of keeping your video messages very interesting! Your channel is the only one I listen to until the end. I love how upbeat and positive the explanations are. I also love that you say the nicest things about every artist you’ve analyzed.
I want you to know how important that is. Your videos are detailed, and respectful.
It defines who you are as a professional musician.
You’re the best.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us!
You Rock! 😊
I was lucky enough to see Judith in concert on her sixtieth birthday at the South Bank. She was brilliant and showed what a good pianist too as she studied piano to a high standard. I felt the love for her from everybody there.
One of my Favorite bands of the 60's. The Harmonies are Divine. Judith will always be the Queen of Class and Soul.
Most definitely.
hi fil i am using my brothers email. my name is charlena . i am from caldwell, idaho . you are doing a great job. what do you think of dusty sprinfield singing.
Excellent analysis Fil. The Carnival is Over is one of my favourite songs. Loved the Seekers and Judith had one of the best voices. Many thanks
I’ve always admired Judith’s angelic voice. Thanks, Fil, for explaining why she was flat for a bit of that song - and for your stellar communications chops.
I keep thinking that I don't remember the Seekers, but then I see their songs and realize that I llistened to them a LOT. Good analysis. I saw another channel talking about singers singing flat, and she had made some comments, and she had to add salt and pepper since she ended up with so much egg on her face, I've watched one or two other analysis videos recently, and realize that I don't like most of them. Which is why I really was hesitant when I clicked on one of yours when you had 13K subs. But I liked what you said, I watched another, and another, and subbed, and now I still don't like most analysis videos, but I like Wings of Pegasus.
Lots.
I always assumed that she was flat because of the lyrics she was singing...creating an atmosphere with her voice. Your analysis is a much more educated one. Thank you!
Exactly. Singing flat in the opening adds a mournfulness to the vocal, which is appropriate for the song.
Is this why I can’t listen to this song without crying like a little girl?😊
I can relate, it was our mum’s favourite in the ‘60’s & we all used to sit around watching the Seekers specials together or listening to their records ❤@@SLB4523
Absolutely BRILLIANT! As a recording singer in studio for many years, you have answered a big conundrum for me! Thrilled the pitch correction software is back! Bravo!!🎉
Learning so much from your clear explanations and actual demonstrations. Thank you! You are appreciated!
Man 👍 what a great idea =AP - authentic pitch or NAT - not auto-tuned stickers, a great way to support the Real Thing !
Such a straightforward and intelligent argument for artistic integrity. Thank you.
Wow, brilliant deductive analysis of Judith Durham on this song,Fil. The seekers were so unique. They were a huge hit whilst on tour in the UK. I’ll Never Find Another You was my absolute fav during this amazing time for the Seekers.
Thanks, great sleuthing! Agree, she heard something that was flat, and followed it. This happens often when someone has a great relative ear -- but not absolute.
Beautiful person beautiful voice beautiful song RIP Judith good stuff Fil thanks 👍👍✌🤘
Judith was the pop female voice of the 60s and Karen was the pop female voice of the 70s. Judith's voice was amazing. The backing track being off makes sense.
Sorry sport, but the Female voice of the 70's was actually 2 ladies, Anni Frid and Agnetha, much better than Karen. But no one compares to Judith.
@@markhill9275 😂
@ohger1 thats about the response i'd expect from someone that thinks karen is anything more than second rate. Weak voice, not much range, and really quite monotone.
@@markhill9275 Hey Mark, stick an icepick in both your eardrums - you'll be amazed at how it improves your hearing!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@ohger1 ahhhh, more intelligent response, definitely got to be a leftie!
I loved this band, I remembered them form childhood💞
I love The Seekers
They were one of q kind and Judith's voice was so recognizable and wonderful 👏 💖
Thanks Phil for showing there genius
Speaking of the Beatles during live performances, John, Paul, & George all said in interviews, that due to the screaming crowds the only way they knew where they were in the songs, was by feeling the beat of Ringo on the drums. The Beatles chief recording engineer was a genius on giving John the sounds of his voice he wanted in sections of the songs, by slowing down or speeding up the recorded tapes and splicing them together to where you didn't notice this in the finished recording.
That's because John didn't like the sound of his voice, not because he couldn't sing. That's why his solo records vocals got really overproduced.
I always wondered how they could hear themselves sing and it didn't sound like one out of tune mess.
@@aygul386 Actually in interviews John thought some of the songs Paul wrote & sang would've sounded better if he had san them. He would do it to give his songs a particular sound he felt worked better for the song.
Phil Spector as a producer made him sound really good on the Imagine and rock n rool albums.
I appreciate you calling out how difficult it can be for a singer in a live situation when they can't hear their own voice in the mix. I'm still healing some old trauma over that hahaha!
Very technical, but very interesting to me. Fascinating to me. Thank you for the difficult work you put into these analyses. Keep it up.
Your explanation of a slightly flat guide track makes sense. Thanks for showing this to us. Most people at that time were probably so busy listening to the beauty of her voice and to the lyrics, they didn't even notice the 17 cents.
Everything else is labeled these days. Consumers should know the autotune truth about recordings and live performances.
I'm glad you pointed out that that whole first section was probably due to what she was singing along with being flat, cos she had amazing pitch.
Actually, Judith was famous for having that rare quality, perfect pitch. Go listen to her sing "Sister Kate", her first love was Jazz.
Not being able to hear myself, or my guitar on stage was the most disorienting thing I ever experienced. After playing lead in a blues jam, a guy said he liked what I did, but the borrowed amp must be why I didn't really get into it. I told him I never heard a single note I played and he said always buy the sound man a drink, and smiled. You are a fountain of knowledge and experience Fil. Rock on.
This was a really interesting look at where a studio can make a slight mistake, in turn, slightly affecting a great singer’s performance. I love that you discovered how uniformly the pitch was off, and the probable reason. Like you said, with a great singer, and the fact that the majority of the song was on-pitch, it didn’t effect the popularity and success of that song. I’m going to go listen to the whole song.
I remember batteries being low on a cassette deck on a road trip for a student group and a John Denver song playing a little slow and off Key. My old reel to reel had a nob on it to make small adjustments to speed. It was something that I always had to check.
I don't know if it's related to the flatness but ever since I first heard that song as a kid I've really liked the intro - it sounds very warm and human
An excellent analysis, Fil - THANK You!💕
It could have been deliberate. The slightly flat pitch gives this song a melancholy and relatable feeling.
Hi Fil,
A very packed full video today. I think you are right that she is singing from a taped track or accompaniment and that is what makes her vocal part seem off/flat. Because as you demonstrated on the pitch monitoring screen it was all consistently flat. She was singing to the music she was given. That being said, and either way, Judith has a lovely beautiful voice. And even the flatness works within the context of the song. And as you pointed out it is very important that as a singer, you are able to hear yourself. Thanks for doing this video and vocal analysis. And good points made on some things the music industry should think about. Lots to delve into with this one… great job summing this all up… Have a great night….Debbie☮️
The Seeker's "Waltzing Matilda", has always been my go to version.
Fun analysis, learned new things again. Thanks Fil😊🏜👍🎶🎙
Very good Fil! Enjoyed your deductive reasoning. Really kept my attention and that's why you are so relevant. Take care my friend...
Clever analysis. Pitch correction could be considered false advertising. Well done musical detective work!
Thank You. Judith Durham has always been one of my favorite vocalists. The '60s were a more simpler time, especially in folk. I like how you break it down and explain how auto tune works these days.
Great breakdown Fil. I have a suggestion for an analysis video, Bonnie Raitt singing Two Lives.
I always wondered why this song didn't work for me. I've been told I have perfect relative pitch, but not perfect absolute pitch.And I'm neither a musician or a singer, but a musician/producer friend heard me whistling and was impressed at ability to hit notes. So he tested me and that's what he ended up telling me. When she (tries to) hit that first G4 note, I've always known that was flat, to the point that I can actually feel it. Everything else she's done was so beautiful, I frequently hold her up as the epitome of a female pop/folk singer when I'm discussing how awful singers are on some of the "reality" TV shows. No acrobatics, no showing off, no riffing, ,just a clean, tasteful singer. Singing to a flat backing track was kind of my suspicion all along, but you have confirmed it for me. Bravo and rock on!
Their harmonies were great. Favorites were Georgie Girl and Never be Another You. As you said Fil, no pitch correction needed for Judith. RIP
Sorry, it’s Georgy not Georgie!
I love the Seekers. I made a pilgrimage to the concert hall while on work travel in Melbourne. The outside venue where they played to that huge crowd
I grew up in the 60s listening to the Beach Boys, the Beatles & the Seekers, your analysis makes sense regarding her singing pitch. I maybe wrong but I think she started out as a jazz singer & didn't really want to do folk but that's how things go! Keep up the good work Phil I love your channel
Not an opera singer, but I can "feel" in my head whether or not I'm singing in tune.
She has a beautiful voice!
I've noticed this problem on several songs from the 60s. Most notably Monday Monday by Mamas and Papas.
I totally agree with charlesclay comment above. The slightly flat way the first part of the song was sung added to the emotional feel of the song, it’s a sad song and she’s heartbroken, her voice slightly flat makes that expression more believable/real.
In the sixties there were exceptional singers who were on key performing live. They were great technicians in the sense of telling a story using their innate arsenal of vocal abilities. They knew that sometimes the song was emotively better when it wasn’t pitch perfect, ie just flat or sharp and sliding into or out of the notes. Whether these vocals were deliberate or accidentally flat, it added to the song. The proof is in the pudding, it was a huge success.
It might be really interesting to see a full spectrum analysis of the voices
It may be flat,but she holds it very well. This group was one of the finest sounds of the 60's.
At the time, I never knew they were from Australia. Whenever I hear them, it takes me right back to when I was 6 or 7 years old. This is not one of their better songs, but her voice is still a great memory.
Sorry to disagree, but "Carnival" IS actually one of their better songs. It was by far The Seekers biggest hit in the UK...the top selling single of 1965.
I'm not so sure Judith didn't know what she was singing. You'd think that when they heard the final release, the band would hear her vocal not being what they expected and rerecord that part, but they allowed it to go out like that. That tells me that was how they wanted it, and I agree with them. The flat intro gives the song a slightly depressed and sad mood. Perhaps that was her intent.
But did they have the technology back then to correct the error without re-recording the whole song again? It might have been record label's call that it was good enough and not worth the expense.
That’s what I think too, she did it on purpose. It also made the final verse sound so sweet & more wanting of the person.
Judith was a perfectionist and she wouldn't allow anything goes to the final records that she would not agree with .
I’m an Aussie, and I used to listen to The Seekers when I was very young. This particular song always makes me feel like crying.
I love The Seekers. Regret never seeing them live. And, I’d rather listen to a non-perfect human voice than I would a robot. Please nobody ‘correct’ it… The trouble with today’s world is that ‘everything is the same’ and computers rule our lives. ‘Art’ isn’t perfect… it’s not meant to be. One of my favourite artists, Bobby Darin, certainly didn’t have a perfect voice, and he always said so… but, wow could he deliver and entertain and make you feel that he was singing ‘directly to you’.
I’m going to post this one too😉
Dude, You NEVER fail to surprise. You need an agent..It' so tough, because there are no more real radio stations per se'. But as you do incorporate so many visuals, some, just ONE of the viewers here, with any actual influence..Pls.
find THIS TALENTED YOUNG MAN A SLOT ON A Television MUSIC PROGRAM.😊
The spectrum of music that you cover without any bias, is just astounding. Thank you!
Thanks for the kind words!
Plus he is damn cute
Great work, Fil.
A kid of the '60s in the USA but really don't recall this song. Georgy Girl, yes. Glad it was loved across the pond ;)
I am really glad that Fil's video has introduced The Carnival is Over to perhaps hundreds of viewers who have never heard of this song.
Unfortunately, the 3 remaining Seekers have stated that they will not be performing together as a group any more. I guess Judith Durham is irreplaceable.
I believe "Carnival" did enter the AC charts in the USA, but not the general Billboard Pop charts. So it must have gotten at least SOME airplay. But obviously not enough...a great song gone begging.
What a great analysis! So interesting. Thank you.
"Rockin' George Leah, lead singer from the horn band "Swallow" (two great albums, without a dud on either of them), and who opened for J. Geils regularly had his own scale and used it to great and profound affect.
He is still beloved in New England for those of us who were around in the Seventies.
He sang the blues wicked, sort of like a David Clayton Thomas monotone, but even more moving imho..
Aww! I did not know she died. 😭 Loved her!
Thank you for another enlightening and enjoyable analysis video, Fil, and I suspect your reasoning is spot on. I could hear that Judith's vocals sounded flat, not pitchy, initially and once you started analyzing the notes my science mind immediately jumped to a playback/tape speed issue of some kind. For me, one of the pleasures of listening to older recordings is knowing they have all of the perfections and flaws of what were essentially "live" recordings in the studio.
Surely one of the most beautiful pieces of music.
I remember when The Carnival is Over first came out and thinking at the time that Judith deliberate sang the first few lines flat to add pathos. You can feel the sadness in her tone and it fades when the accompaniment joins in to cheer her up a bit. Perhaps it was accidental as you suggest but it helped make the song unique and great.
As usual, a very informative analysis. Musical Education representatives would do well to include some of your presentations in their courses.
My ears! I couldn't hear it 😳 You've got a super ear. Thanks for this great explanation, Fil 🖤
Good old Judith, Such class! Good, even when she's not!
Agree totally that we, as "consumers" of music, should be informed if the singer's voice has been modified by technology. That goes double for anything recorded prior 1997 but now remastered & released. We deserve to hear real voices, real emotion, and if a recording been tampered with I want to know.
Even back then, very high quality tape recorders (such as the 12 channel Gould recorders on submarines) used one channel for a reference frequency generated from a crystal controlled circuit. Upon playback, the machine monitored the frequency on the reference channel and instantaneously adjusted the tape speed to correct errors.
That was an excellent explanation Fil.
Great analysis of a great singer Fil. Judith had such an amazing voice. Fil I have a request for you. Can you do an analysis of Ronnie Hammond of my favorite Southern Rock Band Atlanta Rhythm Section. They were such a talented group of Studio Musicians. Thank you
I've done live in-ear monitor mixing and it seems in-ear monitors are especially susceptible to the flat perception phenomenon you described. I think it's something about the airtight seal.
Slightly off course, but it's amazing how different chart success can be from country to country. This song didn't even make the top 100 in the U.S., yet was #1 in England and in other countries. Here in the states charts varied widely even from city to city back then. I imagine it's different these days, with radio stations being run very differently, and the internet playing a big role as well.
Wondering how it did in Russia, considering the melody is pretty much plagiarized of a Russian folk song Stjenka Razin.
This was very interesting and fascinating as well. Great analysis Fil and thanks for the explanation!
I love how you go back and forth in time. Can you make the top of the pitch monitoring view not get cut off? The note (A4 etc) gets cut off - it’s nice to be able to see the high/low notes since I don’t read music. Your channel is great👍🏻
Thanks!
I was around 8 years old when this song was released in 1963. You can hear her the flatness in isolation. The Seekers were a fantastic harmonising group, but I was too young to really form an opinion, but from what I've heard in Golden Oldies. I saw Barry White and to be honest he sang so low C3 - A4, it would have been hard to say whether he sang slightly flat or sharp, lol, but he was a great performer. Judith Durham left The Seekers in July 1968. Thanks Fil another great post 🤘
Hi! Do you want to say Barry White sang from C2 - A3 rather than an octave higher? C3 - A4 sits within the tenor range.
@@Oesterreicher94 Hi, tbh I had to look it up as that concert was many years ago and C3 - A4 is what they were quoting. My search criteria was " Barry White, vocal range ". I enjoyed the concert and he has the lowest bass voice I think I have ever heard.
@@thepagan5432 Thanks for explaining - yeah, they were definitely wrong about his range, then. C3 - C5 is regarded as the extended tenor range. Barry White was certainly not a tenor. He surely could hit most notes in the second octave. I guess he could have hit A4s, as well, with the proper technique - I am too badly informed about his voice to know.
@@Oesterreicher94 No problem at all. I think I know a thing, but often life knows better so I use the web to find the answer, but always use a few sites to reassure myself. Barry White was an awesome singer , but within 3 minutes of starting he would be drenched with perspiration.
Great conversation about conservation Fil. Recording studios were going four-track about that time , quite interesting. Thanks 🎵
Rock !
It is well known that Judith was an absolute perfectionist, that there is a flat note in I'll Never Find Another You and she was terribly upset about it! RIP Judith.
For me, Judith's opening vocal. albeit a bit flat, captures perfectly the sense of sadness and melancholy within the song. The pitch-corrected version just sounds too bright and cheery for my taste.
I wonder if the producer thought the same thing.
Oh! Lost my heart. And this is still fascinating. TY
Thanks, Fil. Shine on.
Your remarks starting around 10:06 about singers singing live maybe sounding off-key reminds me of the Beatles' performances - Oh! there you are talking about it now!! Exactly what I was going to say - they couldn't hear a darn thing, but were always perfectly on key!!
I stopped the video @3:16 to say, It's the drummers fault. It's always the drummers fault, whether it is, or is not, as a frontman of old, I took an oath, (discussed & agreed to with my Bass player, of course), to do exactly this- Just so we start out on the proper footing here... ..
😂😂😂
I love this stuff. She had a stunning voice and vocal ability. In a sense she was almost too good for her own good. :)
A very good explanation. I found many years ago, that in order to sing in key, I have to be able to hear my own voice. Nasal singers can hear their own voices naturally.
I like the effect of the flat vocal. It adds to the sadness of the song.
The Seekers were as good as the world has ever had.
Judith indeed was a legend Fil. The men were great too.
Always enjoy your analysis,, They had some great songs back then!
Tape speed is something Prince played with a lot…. He used it to record as his alter ego (female) name he used escapes me. He also used a lot of aliases. Lol
He was also known as “The Artist Formerly Known as Prince”! Can’t recall his female name.
I love your rants, Fil, always on target! You made some excellent points here, one about the micromanaging that producers are doing with music these days. Would this song have been a bigger hit with pitch correction at the beginning? Very unlikely. So why bother? Another really good point for me, that I never thought about before, was how difficult it must have been for the Beatles to sing when they couldn't hear themselves through all the screaming! I think you are right that they don't get enough credit for that, because that's not something the average person would think of. Finally, I think at some point, with the rapid development of AI, the music industry is going to have to have some kind of regulation and transparency about how the music is produced, or lose all credibility completely. I still think, in the mean time, it would make sense for artists that don't use autotune or pitch correction to advertise that.
Wow, extremely well thought through presentation.
Great, thank you! As you said, her voice was "perfectly" flat! The original sounds perfect, even if the technology begs to differ.
15:50 We were all thinking it before you said it. Great video as always!
I'm a huge Bob fan btw. His vocals are passionate and the tone of his voice makes me happy
I can't recall having ever heard this song, but I do know Georgy Girl. For me, the original sounds right not just better than the pitch corrected version, but then I also don't think visually that the original was very far off the line. At this time, some musicians were experimenting with discordant sounds in songs like Good Vibrations or some post Yoko Beatles songs. In this case though, it seems she was just harmonizing with a slightly out of tune instrument. Agree about the label - if it is thought that language labels are needed, surely this type of label would be of value as well. Thanks!
I couldn’t tell and I think I like the sound of her voice on the first one better. Interesting about the proficiency of the Beatles being able to stay in tune amid all the screaming.
Excellent detective work, Mr. Holmes!
Request: can you do an analysis of this song live and compare to the studio version, please?