Gyude Moore: “China in Africa: An African Perspective”
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- Опубликовано: 24 мар 2019
- Gyude Moore speaks about China’s expanding presence in Africa at the Paulson Institute's Contemporary China Speakers Series on March 5, 2019.
W. Gyude Moore is a visiting fellow at the Center for Global Development. He previously served as Liberia’s Minister of Public Works with oversight over the construction and maintenance of public infrastructure from December 2014 to January 2018. Prior to that role, Moore served as Deputy Chief of Staff to President Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf and Head of the President’s Delivery Unit (PDU). As Head of the PDU, his team monitored progress and drove delivery of the Public Sector Investment Program of Liberia-a program of over $1 billion in road, power, port infrastructure, and social programs in Liberia after the civil war. As one of the President’s trusted advisors, he also played a crucial role in supporting President Sirleaf as Liberia responded to the West Africa Ebola outbreak and shaped its post-Ebola outlook. His research tracks the channels of private sources of finance, the rise of China and its expanding role in Africa, and Africa’s response to these changes. He holds a BS in Political Science from Berea College and an MS in Foreign Service from Georgetown University.
#GyudeMoore #Africa #China
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"It seems U.S. response in Africa were not driven by Africans's needs but by the need to stop what China is doing in Africa" one of the most powerfulest quotes I've ever heard and very well articulated !
If the chinese werent ripping of Africans just as other nations have, maybe people would learn instead of having a problem with it. People are waiting to see the real motives of the notoriously sneaky people. Africa has the funding it needs to develop. It more so needs collective problem solving and corruption control than foreign "saviors". Maybe we are concerned because we have had experience trusting and getting burned.
When a kid touches a hot stove, they wont touch it again. When they see someone else approaching the stove, of course they will warn that person. But if that person insists, go ahead and get burned!
@@MsMetalmonkey23 sometimes we have to learn on our own. But I see your concern on the fact. It's not wrong.
@@MsMetalmonkey23 If the chinese werent ripping of Africans just as other nations have, maybe people would learn nothing instead of having just as other nations.
@@4thAct I wish I could post my entire report I did last week on it. The corruption is disgusting and they really are taking advantage. However with chinese investment and "charity" towards countries mineral rich or those with long standing political ties, the problem is silenced. If a country speaks out against the injustice, china demands silence or threatens to pull relations. Check Guinea and Iron ore. And check Australia and China's dealings with that.. put two and two together. Do the research. Its written all over the wall in red.
Best statement: China might win more, but at least Africa don’t lose.
errol kong what i mean is all the while when African do business with the west, they don’t win. It’s basically free labour
I wish i can roll a joint for you just because of this comment
exactly, the west basically enslaves Africa and stole resources from Africa leaving nothing but religions. while china is investing in a lot of sectors. if you are an investor, you know that you must guard your investment against losing it. that is why having china on your side is not bad at all. the western media propaganda is saying Africa is colonized by china and other things including asking its allies to attack china, forming 5 eyes alliance, etc, while the Chinese are busy working and dealing with things. you can see how the American economy and the British economy are sinking now, and their government does not care about their people, you can see it from how they handle covid, how many people get infected, and how many people die is not because of their gov cares or give a damn about their people.
Maybe
@@henderajoshua6745 yes its funny how the west feel like they can criticize chain for helping africa when just 100 years ago they abducted and enslaved entire tribes and forced them to work
For the first time, people in Africa saw their resources exchange made some difference in their life!!
My college friend from Ghana once said China is greatly improving the quality of life in his home country. Some of his family members decide to stay in Ghana for more economic opportunities due to the advancement in infrastructure.
Europeans and Americans don’t want that. They will cry and complain about you emigrating to their countries, abuse you while you are on their countries then Tell you to go back to Africa....but they don’t mean it.
They are HEAVILY invested in Africa remaining poor. It is tied to their self esteem and self image. If everyone (and especially blacks) are under their foot and need their Doctors Without Borders they feel like they are superior and helping the needy
When you are independent and your economy is growing you won’t “need” them.
Narcissistic personality disorder on a large scale.
That's wonderful and the most positive response I've heard so far.😊
Low quality comment.
Anecdotal
Plus also, this does not rule out a debt trap.
A lot of things can be good in the short term and bad in the long term.
@@gwhodid you even watch the video?
the part where he talked about how African delegations get respect from China no matter how small or weak they may be is just wow
And Nasty Pelosi wouldn't even want to speak to any African unless he or she is the head of state. That old witch who crowed : what a beautiful sight to behold when she saw how the rioters in Hong Kong waved her American flags and molotov cocktails and wrecked the city.
Okay, just now ! When? I meant when got respect from Western Imperialist?
just to show how shallow her facade is...the people around her all know she is a fake, but wouldnt talk about it in fear of losing their job.
it is, actually as a Chinese I feel it very much a burden for leaders in China to meet in person so many delegations from hundreds of countries, if it were me I wouldn't be able to handle it.
This is more respectful if you have watched how rude Blinken treated the Chinese ambassadors Yang Jiechi and Wang Yi in their meeting last week. The Chinese ambassadors had to eat instant noodles for lunch, because there was no proper meal prepared by the Americans.
Every time there's a discussion of Africa/China relations in the Q&A, you'll hear a Westerner ask about Chinese debt trap and Sri Lanka. You can see the guest speaker chuckle and point out that this question always comes up. I like his answer, first time I've heard this fact, China's restructured payments 87 times and only 1 time has there been a debt equity swap. During Covid19 China has provided debt relief to African countries.
and Trump calls African countries...shith@les.
@nebrew centric Giptian maybe your life is a shithole
this is exactly why america, and the ex-colonial countries, are demonizing china.
@Linda Key and you must not know when there's an african slap a chinese nurse, and there's where the hatred begin, oh but you only want to know from one side of the story, anyway the government forbid the racism and it all calm down
@Linda Key and not as bad as America xd?
Ethiopa used to have an American Dream and got US bags of rice. Now, they have a new dream, the China Dream, and they get factories and roads.
. . . and debt.
@@filter80808 Yes, debt but along with roads. With the West it was: debts along with wars, instability, assassination of heads of states, subjugation, racism, dependency, you name it. Definitely China is not a Saint but compared to the West, we Africans prefer China. Get over it.
@@mirabeau70 enjoy it until they treat you the way they treat ethnic minorities in their own country. Why are they so keen to use your land and resources but remain one of the most monoethnic nations in the world? They love cooperating with you so much but when it comes to their country it has to be entirely Zhuang Chinese.
@@Saul.Gone_ You still got it twisted. It's about business & partnership, not about love. They're not good, but compared to "you", we prefer them. You're EVIL.
And why are you so worried about us? Do you all of a sudden love us now after enslaving, invading, colonizing, dehumanizing us for over 700 years and still racially discriminating us etc?
We no longer want anything with you. Enough is enough!!
Get over it.
@@mirabeau70 that is such a simpleton take it’s almost impressive. Im just curious if anyone alive right now have done any of the things you’ve listed to the continent. I fail to see the point of “just now caring” if those are completely different people. Also it’s almost as though all countries did those things hundreds of years ago, you’re just mad at the ones that came out on top. There were and still are African tribes that hate each other over some arbitrary ethnic or religious belief. The same Africans who were catching and selling their countrymen to the slavers in the 17th century because they saw them as lesser too.
It’s amazing how upset you are at countries being racist years ago whilst accepting a country that carries out ethnic cleansings in this day and age.
And you seem to think that “the west” and every person in it since you view everyone there as a monolith like a simpleton, cares about “losing Africa” to China. You say get over it at the end of every comment as if it means anything.
Has China rolled out a social credit score in African countries already? Is that why you’re not allowed to criticise them? Lmao
Glad that this African speaker admits that the future development of Africa will have a lot of Chinese “food prints”. More importantly the African do NOT loss when Chinese try to develop a win-win relationship. Very truthful comment!
Another impressive point is that the speaker said the goods manufactured in China will only take one week to arrive in east Africa after the Silk Road and maritime initiative complete. What a bright future both for China and Africa 👍👍👍
Yep the one week delivery is very impressive. Go Africa.
Before China goes to Africa
The West: Just let the colonies to fight , donot bother us is fine.
After China goes to Africa
The West : Do not let them to bulid for you, They will take your lands and resources.
The Africa : Donot worry, It has been taken by you for a long long long time....................
@Hugo lol...really...urs is propaganda...old and like a broken record mostly not true.
@Hugo Stay mad.
@Hugo weird how the countries taking the loans aren't criticizing, just the beta males in the west.
@Hugo the Chinese certainly harvested your brain good!
@Hugo Too much hate will kill u.
Hong Kong is part of China.
MAGA..is not for u.
Madness Actually Got Acute.
All the name callings are a reflection
Of You....A true world civilization global
HATER..which this world no longer need.
The speaker here was very sincere.
what did they do with black africain men in china they said no black men in restaurant and hotel yes china loved Africa
@@pierrebeausoleil5885 bullshit. you are a hate spreader...do you how many africans are there in China?
YALL ARE BEING ROBBED THEY ARE SHAKING YOUR HAND WHILE PISSING ON YOUR FEET
@@huai-jinzhang6099 He is saying the truth you are not black and dont know what Africans experienced in China with your heavily censored propaganda government media.
@@blackmanuk2530 sure!
dont conclude based on nonsense! please Give all the details abt what you said.
"It is our African brothers who carried us into the UN."
-Mao Zedong (1971)
Never forget who stood with you in your darkest hour.
This honest man disappointed many audiences, in the room, and not in the room.
This guy speaks well on behalf of Africa. I agree with this 100% as an African
@botio botio Financial imperialism.
Thanks for providing this unique perspective.
For once , I have heard someone that has expressed more than a on the surface , tainted view of the power struggle in the developing world. Thank you.
Heard the similar view from Africans living in North Africa.
@@samuelboucher1454 hi, do you even understand what Financial Imperialism mean?
It's quite refreshing to hear an African minister discussing the African issue with reference to china as oppose to usually European or American perspective. I can certainly understand better why African choose to go with China atm.
@Yumi Aphrodite the minister has said there were many problems, the fact remains that African leaders are not left with many choices. Perhaps you bshould you listen to what he presented.
@Yumi Aphrodite So you are expecting China to do all this for free? Everything comes at a cost, of course these countries may refuse the hand, just gonna tell you: China might win more, but at least these African countries aren't losing. What did Africans earn from colonialism?
You can at least argue Chinese involvement in africa has been a net positive. Obviously you can never say that's the case for any western country ever....anywhere. lol
How are you able to see RUclips from China ?
@@georgeinjapan6583 If that's a serious question, you just get a VPN. Anyone can get access to google, youtube, etc. in China if they cared to. The people that do are the most patriotic people I know. They realize what Westerners really thinking about Chinese. That said, most people there don't give a damn about the banned websites, they're pro-white, pro-western platforms anyway that wouldn't ban anti-Chinese terrorist groups when asked to, therefore the ban.
Look at this speaker from Africa. He is confident, intelligent and proud of what he has accomplished for his nation.
He make us proud. Thank you my brother. We need a whole generation of brothers and sisters like you . And it is comming.
I think it is very telling that Mr. Moore's recites his experience about how certain African leaders are snubbed by US politicians (both Democrat and Republican), whereas they enjoy access to the highest echelons of the Chinese leadership. That sends a powerful message to African leaders.
Not only it sends a message, but it's also very telling, of what you can expect from the US goverment if your country has a problem. Any good and healthy relationship, be it interpersonal or international, needs to be built upon mutual respect.
China is a predator- without the birdseed ...
@@lcg3092 USUK warmongers and "mutual respect" don't hang well together. They believe in just taking what they want from poorer countries who are poor because they've employed them😮
@@MMariT Old habits die hard 😂
What China is doing in Africa is what China has gone through after the open and reform. The essences of China's fast development are:
1. Foreign investment
2. Transportation Infrastructure
3. Manufacturing
China is genuinely trying to help Africa to grow in a way that is proven effective in China.
The difference is they are not doing value added manufacturing in Africa; Pure colonial resource extraction.
@@jacobzindel987 have not you heard the speech, there are industrial parks invested by China in Ethiopia that do light manufecturing and ship to Djibouti port to export？
@@jacobzindel987 Ah yes here comes the Western guy who knows next to nothing about China and Africa and got his knowledge purely from the *non-bias* US news, speaking against what an actual African has to say. Projecting much?
I like how the US always think that others are doing or would do what they do rofl.
@@jacobzindel987 China has opened a paper-making shoe garment in Africa, in the construction of roads, bridges, terminals such as Africa, providing more products to local area, providing more employment to local, to create more taxes to enhance local Development level.However, the developed countries in Europe and the United States only know how to subvert the governments of their countries and cultivate their own puppet governments to serve themselves.As a result, African countries have not developed their own capacities at all，Then European and American countriessend a few cars of rice to hungry people to show that they protect human rights.
@@jacobzindel987 People from colonial nations should really shut up on this topic. You have no ground to speak
I cried when he described how the Chinese government treats their delegation upon business visits. How respectful the Chinese are. Who wouldn't fall for the gesture? As human that's what we value most ; honour.
@Hiroko Morioka haha,every single time us being commi is the reason,damn
@Hiroko Morioka poor western bot, so totally brainwashed to hate the word communism.
What is it called when Nancy Peloski wouldn't even talk with the Liberian visitors?
@Hiroko Morioka where were the Japanese when they are classified as one of the best in Asia? Ah.. busy making sour grapes.
@Hiroko Morioka Why is this propaganda? The founder of the institute is a Harvard graduate and is also American. W. Gyude Moore, was Liberia’s Minister of Public Works with oversight over the construction and maintenance of public infrastructure. Who the fuck are you again? If you are updated with history and the economy of the African continents you would know W Gyude Moore knows what he is talking about. Why is this part of the world in constant poverty when western companies are investing? And now they are having a bit of success due to the help of China, people like you tries to throw cold water on that. And it's not a bias talk, if you listened to the whole talk there are pros and cons.
Every time I go to Ghana, Ivory coast,Senegal new highways, bridges, malls, paved roads are being built.People are extremely encouraged and determined to start new businesses.despite all the problems, the continent is moving forward.
As a Chinese I want to see Africa flourish! It's a long and difficult journey, but we'll get there one day. You'll see.
The "we" part makes me fucking cringe. THEY will get there one day.
@Anthony Jay Free Africa!
I like your statement. I was skeptical at first about Chinese in Africa, but over time I’m becoming a believer. My only concern is what happened in South Africa will not repeat it self in generations to come. Fund all this projects and sign contracts with very GREEDY governments (contracts including awful stipulations) and have poor citizens suffer (just like slave trade era)
@@Exxperiment626 1. I know how it's like to be discriminated (based on race/ethnicity). I therefore have considered racism as something evil. Racists feel they are superior. That feeling comes from the idea that their country is far more developed than others ("richer"). So if we want to eliminate racism (fully or partly), we first need to make our own country more developed etc.
2. Poverty is horrible! And yes, we Chinese have experienced it too. Poverty means: no budget for anything. No good school, no clean water or good hygiene, continuously thinking how to survive day to day as there is no money for food/medicine etc. When there's poverty, there's also an increase of crime. All in all, poverty sucks. No one should live in poverty. To my opinion Africa doesn't deserve to be "poor" as the continent itself is super rich of natural resources. For centuries rich countries have discriminated and looked down on Africans. They're fine leaving Africa as dead. I'm so sick of it. The faster Africa prosper, the better! 👊🏿👊🏽👊
@@MsMetalmonkey23 the "we" factor with China surpasses the "my way" factor of the West... so get off your high horse and your blind arrogance...
Man, this guy is smart!
WHAT WERE YOU EXPECTING?......YOU SEEM SUPRISED THAT HE IS SMART.
@@glenoneill3950 I think the comment would be okay if him/herself is African...just to give the benefit of doubt.
@@fw1913 Many africans themselves seem surprised of his eloquence. Nothing wrong about any of the
response, it is just a personal observation on my part. If person A is assumed to be intelligent, any expression that demonstrates that fact is not often commented on. Person B is not generally assumed to be intelligent, any expression that surpasses that assumption is met with surprise and condescending platitudes......"wow you are so smart"......"he is well spoken".........hence my question of what was your expectation of the speaker.
@@glenoneill3950 politicians aren't always that smart, look at the stable genius for example. This speaker on the other hand, appear to be very articulate and great at what he does. Answered questions with facts, and when it is only his opinion (ie: he doesn't know all the facts), he specifically say that it is just his opinion and may not be correct.
what I liked he said is " at least africans no likely lose in this 'win-win' situation". As a Chinese, I must say that there is no absolute equity in africa-chinese collaboration, china indeed wins more in it. However, consider about the development levels and economic scales in africa, infrastructures are what african countries urgently need now. how can a toddler learn to run before he can walk ? Africa must have a base for economic growth, such as infrastructure , education and a stable social environment, before they have equal trades with businessmen, then they can seek for higher standard of trade, economic and financial development. Very good video and a smart man who knows this relationship well. I don’t mind people criticize on my country, but at least they need to base on facts. this man did it , so I respect him and accept his concerns about africa-china relations.
If the Chinese deals were debt traps and were bad for Africa, what does it tell you about the deals offered by the west, that were out bid by the Chinese deals. Think about that.
He is smearing China.
If the debt was so bad, they could choose not to take up China's offer. No one was forcing them. Take it or leave it.
the west has no interest in colonialism, They learnt the hard way, cuz it ended in world war 2.
Now China is trying. Have fun.
Why do you think no one flees to china?
we're not all crazy. CCP might have brainwashed its own people. Africans know the stories of the past. we'll see.
@@ravagekillz "the west has no interest in colonialism" LMFAO then tell me about Arab Spring, or every toppled democracy in SA, or the continued bombardments. Also, your history sucks, WW2 was featured by fascism not colonialism lmao, and the reduction in colonies wasn't because they lost interest, more like they bombed themselves too hard to maintain colonies a continent away.
@@ravagekillz LMAO "the west has no interest in colonialism" this is the funniest shit ever.
21:05 "For the average African citizens, for the first time in a long time, they could see the direct connection between resources leaving your country and some sort of benefits whether it is power, an airport or road available to you (because of China's infra projects)". Powerful statement
"Asia-Africa-Latin-America-Brotherhood", this term is emphasized a lot in Chinese media. Also, "it is the African brothers who lifted us to the UN", this is a famous line in Chinese history textbooks.
Chinese are very racist
@@andreac6024 Not in general actually and racist towards who exactly ? Racism has not been.a part of Chinese philosophy in its historical relationship with foreigners inluding Europe and Africa sp tell me where Chinese people learned to be racist ?
China is in Africa to offer helping hand for the development of Africa which was deny by the European power
@@andreac6024... Yes Andrea China is Racist. It is because She LOVES all races..
@@belloisah9825 it's like a bank giving loans to people with terrible credit, the cost is subtle but great for those that get the loan
Wonderful presentation. Of course US politicians do not like such presentation.
@Hugo I'm afraid your assessment is only pure propaganda. No value in it!!
@Hugo You don't have to give me anything. I have all I need.
Giving advice to brainwashed people (sorry) like you, is a waste of time.
@Hugo Easy!! Read balanced, non-propaganda info.
And please don't give your Lollies, I have my own.
@Hugo Watch your language, mate!!!
@Hugo insulting ppl instead of soft-talking them is quite the opposite way of propagandizing. You sound like a bot "HOW DO YOU KNOW, HOW DO YOU KNOW"~ CIA failed to train you obviously.
Brilliant presentation. You have increased my understanding of the Chinese/west controversy. Thank you
Another interesting talk on this topic by Deborah Brautigam. Dragon's Gift: ruclips.net/video/Cq6Ks3ROiCg/видео.html
I can feel how frustrated it is for those whom ask questions regarding ‘negative side’ of working with the Chinese..and everyone of it being shot down by this brilliant speaker. He is super smart.
They asked issues only first worlders care about but on the ground in developing countries in Africa and China alike, the main issues are infrastructure, education, food and adding value that can form strong economic foundations for the future. Which is why Moore said that while these are important issues, they are ultimately irrelevant in the face of what China offered, and what China have accomplished in Africa and it probably really grated on these privileged first worlders.
"What about racism? Chinese are terrible, aren't they? Are you regretting being treated like shit?"
"Yes, that is a bad problem, but we have schools, hospitals, roads and power stations now and people are actually going to have a future in Africa so we will address racism when it is actually relevant. Plus we were actually treated with respect by the Chinese government far more than western governments. Next question!"
Ohh that probably pissed them off so much.
Not exactly. The speaker is realistic and gives credit where it is due, and calls out problems where they exist.
The perspective given by an African is invaluable, more Chinese should see this.
正在看
Yes, I hope there becomes less racism in China
@@pixphi Yeah I mean most Chinese have never seen a single person of a different race. What comes from ignorance is fear and ridicule. I hope for the same thing as you do.
Yes....more of us should watch this video, it shows how intelligent african people are, they are not "dumb" as the west portrays them to be, they are just in a different stage of development, china at the end of qing dynasty was also in ruins but we turned it around in no time, I think africa should be able to do it too, given enough help.
1 fancy dress guy does not represent a whole continent loser
20:10 This part really touched me, like a rich and powerful person that genuinely treats his friends with love and respect, regardless of their wealth or status.
Very important difference in how the Chinese government sees its African partners to the West and while it was a little bit of the talk it spoke volumes.
Yes, what a difference when Drump call Africa shit holes countries.
As an Indian, I realise we have misunderstood China.
And the last month has shown the extent of our(Ind, Afr, China, ME) misjudgement of the West.
@@rohanchowdhary975 India never stopped trading from China. Too economically linked. The US threats to all four of us, Pak, India, China and Russia, we really need to unite instead of fight each other. We're already part of SCO. Time to utilise it.
@@rohanchowdhary975 India is lucky to have brilliant ministers like Jaishankar telling the west to shove it and looks after interests of Indians.
The Chinese have replaced the west in African because the Chinese have done a better job with providing favorable loans to Africa. A lot of these loans do not require collatoral like the West. These European countries are upset because China and Africa are both benefting from these loans.
That's true , China is the best but there's a catch... failing which means you must give up one of your resource , hub, site, or natural park etc unless you stipulate and get someone , who understand '''terms and conditions'' of that contracts / foreign investment and most important the period to service the debt.... Chinese are project orientated , better for Africa..
@@setumomahakoe7791 1000s of sussessful projects and there is only 1 example where country asked to take over resource - lol
Yes they replace the west with their nasty greedy self who take and don’t give back Slavery was their way but the Chinese also have an alternative motive
@@MissDallas262 yeah but they do give back. They build whatever the African nation concerned wants, be it railways, hospitals, power stations or whatever. China does well out of the deal, but Africa gets vital infrastructure it needs to be competitive.
Favorable loans? You must be sick really. That’s sad!
Shocked. As a Chinese, I have never been so interested in China-Africa relations. It is really a pity that I could not be there to listen his speech. The discussion of the positive and negative effects of China, including racism problems inside China, shows that he actually has real understanding of China , that’s so impressive
As an Indian, I realise we have misunderstood China.
And the last month has shown the extent of our(Ind, Afr, China, ME) misjudgement of the West.
@@rohanchowdhary975 Frankly, the Indian media dwarfs even the Western media in creating fake news about China.
@@rohanchowdhary975 as an indian, you must know white man success was build on stolen loot in the name of Jesus, said one hindu, anglo Saxon stole 45 trillions from India, Winston Churchill had the audacity said Indian are beastly people with beastly religion
@@rohanchowdhary975 exactly
In re: Racism in China vs. U.S. and Europe. Instances the speaker alluded to in China differ from what is occurring in the U.S. and Europe in that in the U.S. and much of Europe, the racism is manifested throughout the government and elected officials at the highest levels. Because the Chinese leadership are intelligent enough to recognize that blatant display and practice of racism by the govt. or individual citizens is counter productive to the overall Chinese development strategy, sincere effort to eradicate racism is underway. Due to the authoritarian legacy of China, racism won't ever become as pronounced or prevalent as it is in, let's say, MS, GA, TN or other states throughout the U.S. If the Chinese do not suçceed in vanquishing racism, altogether, and soon, you can bet that in due time, racism will become so negligible, it will not even be mentioned in the future, relative Africans. Whether it will be spoken of, relative to cowboy boots wearing yahoos from TX, I won't dare venture to speculate.
What an amazing man. A true loyal African who is a real credit to Liberia. Gyude for president.
More practical and grounded perspective in China foreign investment policy in developing nations like Africa compare to embarrasing ones given by US state sec, Pompeo, a war mongerer but zero planner in infrastructures.
Normally, I would second that emotion but I fear for the brother if he were to become president. He might wind up like Lumumba, Ghaddafi and so many others.
Yup, For President!
So China is doing what they do best, investing in a country and building infrastructure. People like to always look at it as taking over, if you look at how China was back then to now, you can clearly see that the investments they have made in its own country is paying dividends by the fact that the poor are getting out of poverty. Africa has been kept poor for too long and hopefully this will bring on a positive change.
They are cultivating future trading partners, which will be good for China and Africa, Are We Alone.
Chinese coming to Africa must RESPECT US IN OUR LAND by not mistreating their African staff and then take our raw material through bribery and corruption leaving the poor poorer.
@Alexander Nakamura The reality is that China is abusive of its citizens and needs money to keep up the expensive surveillance and suppression of their people. Once the Chinese CCP is invested in a country, they basically have them hostage. The country's growth becomes dependent on those state-owned companies staying in the country, so they will be forced to do whatever China says, which is set out by an authoritarian dictatorship who use massive propaganda campaigns. The west might not bail out Africa or even help them much aside from private business investment, but what if China changes in the future for the worse? There is absolutely nothing stopping them from turning bad, and they already have done that to the west, except by attracting investments and then requiring them to follow more and more of the government's arbitrary laws if they want to keep doing business there. In China they literally have / have had slave labor camps in their country for religious minorities within the past 5 years. You're just going to let them force their will on you? Keep your autonomy. Please.
@@jarigarber5513 ^
@Alexander Nakamura Everything that I wrote hinges on the past actions of the CURRENT CCP government. Sorry, but thinking all "western values" are anathema to all Chinese people is absolutely incorrect. Not all western people believe the same ideology, and neither do all Asians, so grouping people together and saying that "western values" or "Chinese values" are invalid to one another is incredibly ignorant. The CCP's internment and enslavement of ethnic minorities also has helped Chinese people a lot! Hasn't really helped the Uighurs though, for they live in fear every day along with anyone who proposes a change of government. My question to you is; do the ends justify the means? If you have to force Chinese people and foreigners through gross means to do things against their will, is that acceptable on a world stage? I'm not saying all Chinese support this. I'm saying the government forces its people to be ok with it.
Please, show me the source for your information about China alleviating poverty.
Assuming that African governments don't have the ability to negotiate a good deal with mega corporations is also a bit condescending to the African people, don't you think? It is wrong to think that the African leaders wouldn't be able make their own decisions. You can't say that the CCP doesn't do the very same if not worse things to the environment, and to the people which it previously colonized (the Uighurs) and are treating like crap.
No shit, I have my own perspective based on many different sources? Should I just get my information from a central authority that always claims to know best?
You call me a "western hypocrite" but fail to point out any hypocrisy. In the distant past, colonial countries really screwed with their colonies. All of them, because they could with their autocratically governed countries. In a capitalist system (with few state-run businesses) the regulation of the practices of those companies is done by the local government. This means that the governments in Africa could regulate them. However, if a state is investing in another state, the investor will have power over the investee. That is a clear conflict of interest, and could lead to corruption that could negatively affect the African people. The CCP is inherently corrupt because it has no rule of law. The great thing about rule of law is that the laws can be changed through activism if they are found to be unjust. Once the investment is made, it is owed unless the assets can be resold. Many of these projects will lose much of their value over years and the investees will be stuck with the CCP-run operation unless they want to foot the bill on the entire project. If the CCP were to fix its rights issues, start doing elections, and start collaborating with allies in a ways that are ACTUALLY mutually beneficial in the long term and respectful I would be satisfied. The CCP is inherently corrupt because there is no accountability for them. Seems like all of the CCP's dealing eventually will become one sided much like you claim America is. hmm.
I know a lot about the CCP's abusive regime and how they try to silence people, just like you are trying to do. In a fascist society where the citizens aren't ruling the country, the country can do whatever the hell it wants regardless of its people (usually appeases the rich). The CCP is disgusting and inhumane, always have been. Killed millions of their own people even. Let their own people starve. They also always try to fool their people into believing blatant lies. (See the Mao's mango cult and how they made people believe that mangoes stayed ripe forever by using a fake mango in a showcase lol, the people didn't actually believe that but the government forced it on them).
I am not telling you what your government is like, I am telling you my opinion on that government's actions. You can't tell me you know everything about your government, nor will I.
"Useless English teachers" An English teacher in a free society has the ability to explore truth and perspectives, and get a better understanding of the issue through free access to information and not be confined to lies that are perpetuated within an echo chamber called "the great firewall". I understand that many Chinese use a VPN, but it is illegal.
As a world, we should let Africans choose their own path forward. My "stupid country", which isn't even where you think it is, had many technology stolen by IP theft and has been affected by abuses of free-market capitalism on a national scale. It is sad to see the path that China plots forward, and I hope that you find the time to criticize what you see wrong in your government so that the net sum of human suffering can be lower. The corrupt economic policies of the CCP are ruining China, supporting authoritarians, and rotting China from the foundation, as well as the CCP is causing the US and other countries to fight against it because of its abuses.
I am doing my final project on China Africa relations and this has been so insightful. The speaker is speaking some truth!!
No, he is speaking 100% truth
Good job young man. Make sure you are not hobbled by the many naysayers that refuse to see anything good as positive.
One other thing he didn't mention: Africa went to China in the 60s/70s asking Mao for help building the railroad. (At the time, China was very poor)... Watch a video called, "When the West visits Africa, they talk about China), a short video, and see...
He sounds like a lackey.
Africa should never ever pay debt to Europe and USA!
I agree with this 100%, as a policymaker, China is doing great....Kenya has borrowed and done around 70% of what the loans were supposed to do....I hope in ten years these investments will be worth every penny. All I wish for Kenya to have this kind of a minister.
Here is a Simple answer how many infrastructures has China build vs other countries in Africa.
@Kalydosos as far as I know trade and resources.without infrastructures Africa can not develope with its potentials.people always live in their poverty or worse.
@Kalydosos without infrastructures other investors will not come to Africa.
@Kalydosos most countries more or less the same at those times about the human rights.you have to compare now vs the past.everthing have changed dramatically.
@@JIMMY-nz1ld If someone builds infrastructure for you, how are you going to maintain it? You don't know what to do.
@@jehbuhdieyaspringfield7290 when the Chinese companies build the infrastructures in Africa they also hire locals and give them training therefore they create jobs and gain skills.why are yous so objective against Africa want to get better?
The comment of this video is so interesting and ironic. While the speaker clearly pointed out how African countries are not being treated fairly by the EU or US, there are still people saying Chinese are racist. How pathetic this is.
@Doug Miles Of course, they can be citizens just as the amercian can become citizens of China.
@Doug Miles Of course Africans can becomes Chinese citizens. You just need to fulfill the requirement, which applies to people of ALL skin colors. It'd take a Korean the same amount of time to become Chinese citizen as an African. How is that racist?
Unlike in the US, it's been much easier for Europeans immigrants to settle than anybody else. The US is undoubtedly the king of racism in human history.
@Doug Miles I wouldn't want come to US because of the President is white supremacist.
You don’t need to reply to Doug once he pulls out the word “Communist” as if it still means anything after being abused by the Western media. Communist this communist that.
I probably rode my communist bicycle to school to meet my communist girlfriend today.
When someone is so trapped under ideologies, you can just tell. I bet he’s gonna say “thief of IP” and “uyghur slaughterer” next.
@Nana Adutwum People in the west have a jesus complex they think that black people owe them something and should be thankful. They think we dont know history.
A large part of the problem for African people is that we are fed so much western media it's become hard for us to see ourselves and our true place in the world, we have begun to see through the lens of someone else.
Sharing similar experiences with colonialism although maybe to a different degree, China understand Africa’s struggle from poverty to eventually achieve modernization and better living.
It’s like the kid in class who would often help those slightly left behind. Bravo China!
I replayed more than twice, he really frankly open minded presenter.
The key is that China has been building up infrastructure in Africa since the 1960s. As noted, the 1,100-mile long Tanzam Railway, built in the late '60s and early '70s, was the longest sub-Saharan railroad and the most expensive Chinese foreign aid project at the time, built for nearly $500 million (in that time's money). Perhaps the most amazing thing is that China was in the midst of the Cultural Revolution and was experiencing great economic and social upheaval.
Glad you mentioned this! My English teacher in high school was part of the Chinese team in Tanzania. Told us lots of stories in his class.
This was the single most enlightening talk I’ve seen about Sino-African relations. A symbiotic economic relationship with African nations is probably the most positive thing I’ve heard all year.
Just say chinese-african.
🙄
@@gwho *Chinese-African
China and the continent of Africa can greatly complement each other’s needs. The win-win situation that the speaker mentioned is not only the strategy of the Chinese government, it is the Confucian philosophy to treat others the way you want to be treated.
Nice to hear the truth from an educated African. Thank you.
If Africa has more people like him serving, Africa will be in very good hands.
Africa has a million of him, they are assassinated, killed or jailed by western proxies and insurgencies
@@user-sn2xt3rl9c, that is why they need China or Russia's protection.
Guys like him ended up like Lumumba.
How do you know that is not the case
They are usually assassinated by west (especially by France)
Wow, what an amazing talk! Gyude Moore described the China-Africa relationship as he sees it from an African perspective untainted by western biases. Sad to see the audience constantly fishing for negatives about China's activities in Africa instead of using this forum to learn how the U.S. can better engage with Africa. The audience's questions confirm Moore's comment that the real motivation behind America's concern with Africa only extends to figuring a way to control China's growing influence on the continent. America's African policy was starkly demonstrated when his delegation got snubbed by Pelosi. Actions speak louder than words.
Observing how Americans behave today allows me to see how Hitler was able to rise in Germany. Americans simply cannot escape their own bubble for long.
Yes this is very obvious to me too. And people still wonder why Africans do not buy the western constant demonization of the China Africa relationship. It's has an agenda behnd it.
Gyude Moore has substantial facts about Africa -China cooperation and unbiasely delivered it positively.
This guy is far more smarter than most of the western guys !!! Afriacn can have a great future with such brillant brain ! Bravo !!
I thought the same.There is no comparison between this fine gentleman and the hideous troglodytes like Pelosi, Blinkin, Biden and the rest of the monsterous US political class.
That’s true . It’s always about education education and education
@@tekniqal2639 Besides, Biden and Blinken are literal war criminals.
We were taught "african ppl are our brothers and sisters" since I was in junior school 20 years ago in a 3 tiers city in China. The books were written chinese and African brothers and sisters will help each other. So, what we have done in Africa was and will be originated from heart of every chinese normal ppl.
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@@prophetsjeremiah1063 shut up!
@Ninja X is this true? You guys really are taught that in schools? That’s incredible!!
@@legibby May God have mercy on you
@@legibby Indeed, taught in school. Also, this line can be found in news
In reality Chinese ted to be very racist towards people from Africa. But hey, guess that might be the way the Chinese treat ""family"
This gentleman speaks with 100% accuracy, I haven’t seen anyone who laid the facts bluntly like this! Good job brother! 🇪🇹
Our brother is ready we'll done integrity
Great discussion! I also wish he went into detail on how destructive IMF and world bank loans are, and require tons of conditions on African countries while China actually has no conditions and frequently cancels debt.
That's the problem!
Impressed with this guy. Wise, smart and spoke well.
That shouldn’t be a surprise!
Why is that so impressive ? You’re surprised because an African can speak clearly ? Lol.
@@TalentedTenth Spoke with substance and not talk for the sake of talking.
@@firstmisslady A lot of speakers beat about the bush.
@Davin S you think these speakers are really retarded? No, it’s just that they have political agendas they have to push
China knows that in order for them to get their money back with interest is that that countriy's economy grows and improves to a level to which they can pay their debt back
this is one of the factors. another factor is china is materializing US dollar.
I applaud that there's an overall net gain, but with that being said, the comment section being overwhelming positive is a a tell-tale sign that this is a propagandist piece. Speaking of the con's is as beneficial to the cause as discussing the pros, as romanticizing a complex issue into heroes and villains is a zero-sum game, and the freedom to criticize without persecution is a feedback mechanism of society worth utilizing for the evolution of mankind.
Or just force their way and take all the resources of the country without any care...
Please, stop this fake discourse, the CCP is despicable!
@@mbwahaha no it’s just not. Do u think this man is telling a lie?
@@PHOEBE_LOVELY Why would he be telling the truth?... i know what China does first hand, i dont need a sellout to say what it is and whats not.
Excellent description of African Chinese relation, mutual and respectful.
Neoliberals: Listen to black people
Black people: China is actually helping Africa grow
Neoliberals: No not like that
😂that was good
Centuries of Western colonialism and imperialism in Africa has yielded NO benefit to Africans. Only the colonialists have benefited. It happened to China and India too.
China was never colonized, why do you think they turned to communism? They were humiliated tho.
@@pocarisweet8336 Parts of China was colonised by foreign powers, though not whole countries like in Africa.
European powers divided up Shanghai, forced trades on China which lead 2 opium wars.
Japan conquered Mongolia.
Why China always talk about 100 years humiliation
@@pocarisweet8336 sure they were... Hong Kong by British ; Maucao by Portuguese ;Taiwan by Japanese; Beijing, Shanghai, Tianjin and many other big cities have all been occupied by the Europeans..
@@pocarisweet8336 hmmm the majority of northwestern China was colonised by the Japanese for decades; Qingdao was colonised by Germans...Roy has mentioned the rest pls take a look.
Eight Nation Alliance/ Five Eyes trying to balkanize China to this day, as it is a fundamental threat to Western(American) hegemony and white supremacy
Very impressed with speaker’s intelligence. From him, I can see Africa has bright future.
Yes, Africa needs people like him to become a force to reckon with.
This is interesting to watch as an African. I study economics and taken a course on the economics of developing countries. That changed my perspective on Africa and Chinese relations.
Every economy needs foreign direct investment. China provides FDI to allow the development of transportation such as roads, railways and airplanes that can facilitate intra trade between African countries.
Example, this year the African Continental Free Trade Agreement was established to create a large trading bloc between African countries. One of the flaws was that many parts of Africa lacked proper transportation for goods and services to move between countries. That’s where China comes in. China provides the investment to complete these projects.
Which in return allows African countries to facilitate trade and drive Economic growth.
This could be a win-win if African countries reach economic growth and China is paid back the loans with interest. African leaders need to leverage their debt so that the interest rate doesn’t lead to an accumulation of debt they cannot pay off. And making sure the ratio of GDP from domestic production exceeds foreign investment.
People perceive foreign investment as a form of colonization. When every country receives FDI especially from China.
The relationship between Africa and China has potential to benefit Africans more than America and Europe’s relationship of exploitation with Africa.
Those people don't understand that , without loans it will take Africa generations to develop. And don't even talk about catching up .
@@Ahoooooooo all the OIL AND GAS MONEY WASTED ON THE AFRICANS LEADERS.
Time will tell but China will eventually have a major geopolitical say in Africa.
Love from China! Wish African and Chinese can share Develop opportunities.
It is nice to hear the voice from an African point of view.
One of the finest presentations its been my privilege to hear!
Here is my explanation why China treats a small, low income and politically insignificant African country no different from a big and powerful western economy. This is a Chinese culture. Chinese for over 5,000 years have been taught by their ancestors the concept of common prosperity. Thus China see working in Africa is like sharing future together. That is why China always sees every country as a friend until being treated as a foe. This will always the stand of the Chinese government but individuals' behaviour may vary.
This is just the beginning. Africa is on fire. The spirit of Africa is growing in all sectors, inspiring for many countries in Asia. Thanks for Africa. We from Asia are also proud. Go Africa! Spread your wings towards a more prosperous and glorious future.
Capitalism ftw.
This guy is clearly very competent and smart. From him I can see a better future for Africa.
For the West: I give $10 aids, but in return I have to take $50 profits from you. . For them, there is no such thing as financial aids, but only a loan-shark. The same happened to East Timor.
Australia has given $17 million aids to ET since its independence from Indonesia in 1999, but in return has taken $70 million worth of oil.
@Huawei is a criminal organization. LOL ,half the oil belongs to Australia ? You have no shame making that claim?
@Huawei is a good organization, I don't know who is Huawei until Trump ban it's 5G recently, They build African's Telecom infrastructure, haha.. now more ppl use or know the name.. Huawei this Huawei that 😃😁😀
@Davin S unfortunately for western countries, countries in Asia, Africa, Middle East are simply tools and pawns that they toy with and gain benefit from. They have colonized these countries and they still thinks that those countries is their God given right and the natives are simply resources for them to use and exploit.
...and bugged the Parliament we built for them so we could screw ET on the oil negotiations. We squandered so much goodwill we'd accrued in the independence aftermath, all to enrich Woodside and the Liberal politicians connected to it.
a friend in need is a friend in deed. Wish Africa and china help each and grow together 🎉
Sadly the West history with Africa has been one of exploitation. China may not have the "one size fits all" module but at least, it has already given many African nations hopes. What Africa need is infrastructure. It is a very huge continent and Chinese are the specialists at that.
First Demoralise or Enslave, then introduce Religious ideals and morals, then call them lazy and clueless. Next save them from themselves by doing missionary work as Saviours and Masters, in Industry and Government. All part of 'Progress'!!! (?) Should we then say 'Thank you' to the Overlords?
I like this kind of full of number and fact check talk, brilliant,
His suggestion to fact check adds to his credibility, Sun Wilson.
Agreed!!
Truthful and brilliant? This video must be circulated around the world.
"China in Africa". It feels so bad that for a talk about Africa, so fee actually cared about Africa and only talk about how China is evil. Remember he mentioned John Bolton's Africa policy mostly just talk about China, he meant you, me, everyone here in the states, why we care so little about them and only picked the interests just because what the Chinese did?
This guy is so smart and data driven, so happy to see people like him can have an big influence on African lives
Respect from China! Thank you so much for your in-depth analysis and insights,Truth King！
I hate to listen to someone talking but this guy i can listen all day because he talking the true. God bless my africa brother
The China debt talk by the West more like sour grapes to me.
If somebody.offers you a ton of money with no strings are you gonna say no ? Lmao
@@musiclover5023 there must be a string some there right?
@@wei270 lol
africa will not have a conflict with china.
@@Hey.bekind777y Asia and Africa = long lost friends finding each other again.
Rise Africa rise so proud of this young articulate and smart young man. I hope pen day I get to visit Africa as someone with African roots but never had a chance. 🙏🏾
Wonderful speech from a wonderful African Minister ! I have recommended this video to many of my friends. I hope there will be more and more African poeple like Mr. Moore. Blessings to African continent !
Round of applause to the speaker Mr Moorse! His excellent knowledge and eloquence gave me lots of insight into China Africa relationship. This is a good an hour well spent. I hope Africa can find and thrive in their own ways by learning from other countries, under the leadership of people like this speaker. 40 years ago nobody saw the rise of China yet here we are, I'm waiting to see 40 years from now how Africa can blow our mind with development!
Progress, development, overpopulating, poverty and minority extreme wealth, pollution, decimation... The Western model, adopted recently by the Chinese, Bella!
It seems to me My African brother gave a honest report about the sino African relationship and also a honest report of the Euro African relationship. It open my eyes, to the truth. I see no reason for him to miss educate us about the reality on the Continent. He speak of the positive contribution the Chinese brothers and sisters made to our Continent and the negative problems he observed . He would make an excellent ambassador for the African Continent in my opinion because of his integrity. Well done my brother. U make us proud. We need a whole generation of brothers and sisters like u.
I get to listen to china's lackey...for an hour. Africa will do better without china and the other parasitic colonialist. I also look forward to Africa's rise. I think that can be done without china.
Excellent exposition by an African academic & politican who actually lived on the continent. His research & experience shine through. Well done!!
We are all humans, we need to be treated with respect and dignity. A century of humiliation has taught China the value of helping the smaller an the weaker. China remembers what it is like to be poor, feeble and starving. This is a country that understands oppression, poverty and the struggle for a decent living.
The first few statements in Sun Yat-sen's Will:
"For 40 years I have devoted myself to the cause of the national revolution, the objective of which is to achieve liberty and equality for China. The forty years' experience has convinced me that to realize such goal, we must awake our people, and unite with NATIONS OF THE WORLD WHICH ARE WILLING TO TREAT US AS EQUALS working together to carry out our common fight."
Very humble request, and 100 years later the Chinese leaders are still following it.
An good faith analysis and criticism of Chinese involvment in Africa... It's a breath of fresh air from the constant anti China propaganda we get all the time about Chinese involvment.
Thanks for the informative talk. Learnt a lot about Chinese-African relations. Didnt know that Nancy Pelosi could be so short-sighted.
Not short sighted, but undermining African.
Nancy Pelosi cannot see past her icecream fridge.
Well stated
Anti Chinese sentiment is THE only truly bipartisan issue in the US...
oh no, definitely not short-sighted, she is basically racist. She is one of the least sincere political figures in the US.
What an incredible, powerful speech! The future of Africa in the eyes of an African!
Just know that China has never colonize an African country. China has never taken Africans as slaves. China has never fought proxy war in Africa. So win win with China.
The west had Africa for decades... Nothing happened...
I wouldn't say nothing happened. As matter of fact alot had happened.
@@pocarisweet8336 what I meant was nothing positive happened
@@pocarisweet8336 you are right. Very bad things had happened.
@@pocarisweet8336 like slaves trade
For centuries. A lot happened.
We feel so hard or afraid to voice different opinions even though we know they are true and correct. Do we really live in a free world?
No, we really live on a slave planet.
Free speech is an illusion and make believe concept in the West. It only functions when the majority of the population are brainwashed with deep state narratives since birth & reinforcing those narratives through daily propaganda. You can clearly see there is no free speech, when one poses to reveal something against the deep state narratives and that such entity can reach & waken a large number of sheeple, Edward Snowden or even Assange and other whistleblowers are some of the good examples.
That's the life under political correctness in a nutshell.
No there's no speaking freely. Whenever an African leader spoke up, they were assassinated. Can you imagine speaking up for the improvements of your country and using your own mineral resources and bring murder because they wanted to have assess to them? There is no such thing as a free world.
Thanks for this cogent and illuminating lecture.
The speaker answered each question with real examples that clarified the facts and realities
and countered misconceptions concerning the
evolution of Chinese African relationships.
♦️♦️♦️
I was pleasantly surprised. The guy looked so young, but he has a lot of on the ground experience. Was insightful to hear his perspectives
Note: his Q&A discussion is way better than his initial talk
Africans can help the world understand china...
Need for more :
African voices: they speak perfect English
More forums conducted by Africans
@@sallyramage8439 uhhh there are tons of non africans that speak chinese lmao
Only a Chinese would say such a thing
Must Africans I paint a totally different picture.
Chinese always remember the African brothers supported them in difficult time when communist China formed in 1950, at time when western world was trying to destablise new China through Korean war headed by US.
North Korea, backed by Russia, invaded South Korea.
Ending in a truce.
@@billpetersen298 And China was also completely against that invasion in the beginning, China was only forced to join the war as the US army arrogantly ignored China's warning as not to push the war to her border, thinking "how dare you warning you US daddy?" Then we all know what happened later that the US got a big slap on the face by the "sick man of Asia".
@@kevinzhang4952 That McArthur is the real sick man
Brilliant and refreshingly/unusually balanced analysis of pros and cons of China's engagement. Appreciation also for his critical preface providing a historical reminder as to the nature of Africa's prior experience with development vis-a-vis the West.
Illuminating, thank you. We need this kind of presentation to balance out the wholesale negative news about China that have surfaced in the last 5 years. Mr. Moore's talk debunks most of the terms often labeled at Chinese presence in Africa: debt trap, neocolonialism, lack of opportunities for local workforce to partake in the project and development in Africa.
Stop watching CNN,BBC nd other western media .. Simple
As a Chinese I have to say. Yes we surely do everything for profit. Not only trading resource with infrastructure in short term, but also fundamentally we understand it will make our own life better if the rest of world is getting better. Our education and culture plant the notion of ‘community with shared future for mankind’ deep in our heart. The world technology is far beyond the stage when people need to fight for resources. Mankind could only become a higher level civilisation by working together.
As a Chinese I have to say: exactly. I think that the “unity” in Chinese values promotes mutual respect and teaches us how to work together.
Thank you very much.
This is enlightenment, let's kindly share the video to different social platforms ✊🏽🌍
Good China is not doing empty paper promises and doesn’t dictate us how we should live our lives. WIN WIN COPERATION
Thanks for this fantastic speech! Just got a full picture of China-Africa relationship and corporation.
Excellent presentation!, a modern and mostly objective exposition on the present and future of the African continent!, excellent National African minister with a very interesting view of the African continent. Thank you very much to Chicago for this wonderful presentation!
The world is a village, understanding, and respecting one and another certainly are the building blocks for a better humanity. 王道和霸道，这就是区别。
Get out of my homeland AFRICA
@@sofiaa885 😂
It's amazing speech. Any of the press or media in Korea never show the africa-china relationship on their own african perspective like this. It's so touching to me. I will see again and again this speech. Thank you, thank you so much. God bless africa. God, their own.
The Western hegemony is shrinking and a lot of Westerners are panicking.
They'll do whatever it takes to keep Africa poor. That's why they hate the African-Chinese trade deals.
I love this type of talk where arguments are based on facts, data. Instead of hearsay or one-off personal experience.