Can I fix microphonic Firefly pickups by taking the covers off?
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- Опубликовано: 16 дек 2021
- Pretty much all the affordable import humbucker guitars I've covered feature microphonic pickups, and each time commenters claim that removing the covers will fix the issue. "It's a simple fix" they say, "Just pop them off with a screwdriver". Are they correct? is it a simple fix? tune in to find out on this exciting episode of 'Watch Ryan Fumble With Tools And Break Stuff"
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Why did you even upload this? Thank you for wasting my time.
Why did you even post? Idiot.
This was very informative.
Why did you watch it if you felt that way?
@@DSilvergun because I expected better but keep getting let down from this channel. My bad.
@@bradleyclosson5042 Absolutely your bad. Get smarter maybe?
A hotdog eating contest at it's finest.
You are like the Mister Rogers of guitar... just a relaxing time with someone talking about their feelings while playing/working on guitar. Thanks!
Mr Rogers of guitar? No way. Why do people even say this? People say it about Ted Woodford all the time and it's just as ridiculous when they say it a out him as it is now.
He's Mr Hum. His own person. Not Mr Rogers of guitar. That's just dumb. He does NOTHING that would make me think "oh he's just like Mr Rogers, except with guitars!" 🙄
@@JC-11111 Good day JC. It was meant as a compliment. Just a nice gesture. You know, a nice change of pace compared to all the insults and hate we see on the internet. I'm sorry you saw this as an insult to Ryan. I feel we need more love and kindness in this world. That's all. I wish you well.
Can't be Mr. Rodgers. He didn't change his sneakers even one time. More like a deadpan Kaptain Kangaroo.
The Bob Ross of guitar youtubers. A LOT of happy little accidents. I enjoy then until I don't -- but I always appreciate his willingness to learn ON the camera instead of just being the wizened old "just do it this way"
I don't see the similarity whatsoever. Honestly this guy kinda freaks me out for some reason haha
Ryan, the fact you experiment, do cool and unusual mods, try affordable guitars and are honest about your capabilities in doing them i why i subscribed. Keep doing you!
Don't forget an Excellent Shoegazer too!🌝
I don't subscribe to many RUclipsrs, but I can't stop watching this. Thanks for giving me something to do for a half hour. Bravo!!
You don't really need to remove the wax. The microphone effect happens when there is a gap between the pickup and the metal cover. The wax helps but good pickups are also equipped with an added piece of foam or self adhesive tape that conect or fill on the gap that exists between the metal cover and the pickup. The microphonic effect is due to the small feedback k vibration because if the air gap. No gap, no vibrations, no microphonic effect. The effect is basically the same as how a microphone or speaker works.
Enjiy
Thanks for explaining
That's not quite right. Even pickups without covers will produce "micro-phonic feedback". The real issue is the coil wire vibrates producing sympathetic frequency modulation. Tightly wrapped wire reduces feedback, but wax or epoxy potting does far more. EMG makes the best high-gain humbucker design, by filling the entire plastic cover with epoxy resin and vacuuming out all of the air inside the coils.
It’s really easy to disconnect ANY of the wires/leads when moving that stuff around. Sounds good on the neck pickup
Awesomeness. Definitely can relate to trying fix something and then ending up with it not working.
I am that tech! I always use a scalpel or a Stanley knife to take the solder off. A hairdryer usually melts out the wax. Great video. Keep encouraging people to have a go.
Yes! this is the way.
Hey Ryan...i have to say that your enthusiasm is highly inspirational...i am in my room doing simular stuff, talking to myself...without someone watching...so, you do something right...sadly i watch all your videos....stay grounded man...sorry for my english...greetings from austria
Cool to hear someone else is a lefty and plays right handed guitar. I thought I was just a weirdo. I always felt bad for other lefties options are limited.
Hey, I'm part of that club too
I'm even more weirdo: a righty that feels more comfortable playing left handed.
Microphonic pickups are caused by the coils being able to vibrate. The wax is supposed to prevent the vibration, but during the manufacturing process, the coil has to be firmly wound, and potting is usually done in a vacuum chamber to get the air out. I THINK this was shown on a Seymour Duncan factory tour... and or a Gibson tour. The black paint is the conductive/shield type.
i learned after my first 2 FF's, to just do this right out of the gate with the others i've bought. it's crazy how it works! glad to see you did a vid on this.
lol i just got to the part where the bridge doesn't work. sorry that happened, but i have literally just popped them off with a flathead screwdriver and then scraped the wax off like you did with no issues. damn!
@@KevinMellon yeeeaaaa..... the "budget line" import stuff had that problem often. I would honestly just replace them with some inexpensive Dragonfire or GFS pickups, but that is mainly because I like zebras and have used both brands in several builds.
Is it really necessary to remove the wax around the pickups?
Next time, buy an Indio and you won't have to deal, with all of this crap. The one in my avatar was $219 and had none of the issues Ryan always has with cheap guitars. No microphonic pickups. No high frets. No badly cut nuts. Mine was so perfect, I've done nothing but play it and restring it in 13 months.
Indios are cheap too. They just don't have these issues that Firefly and the other places do. Mine was set up so well I didn't even want to change strings because I didn't want to mess up the setup somehow lol
@@JC-11111 Good to know all Indios are as perfect as yours!
Wax potting helps, of course, but post-production potting is both awkward and risky. What I like to do to pack the coil a little more snugly, so it doesn't wiggle in place, is use plumber's teflon tape. It has no adhesive, but grips nicely so you can put a few wraps around a coil and pull tightly to pack the windings of the coil closer together. The stuff is cheap, available everywhere, easy to work with, and has just the right width for the job. Because it has no adhesive, that means you can take it off whenever you want without any risk to damaging the coil. Obviously it is not as effective as having wax seep through the entire coil, but for 50 cents, whaddya want - perfection, or simply an audible improvement?
Really... I've done a mess and it's never been a problem.....don't let the wax get to hot. Less then 140 degrees F
Fender used to wrap the single coil Tele bridge pickup coil with string to control feedback. It worked fine until amps became more powerful in the 60s.
@@cugir321 Realistically, it's the outer 1/3 of the coil that risks being too loose in places. The innermost turns are generally nice and tight. So I don't pot fully. I lie the pickup on its side and use a heat gun to melt wax to drip down onto the coil. Then I use a lower heat setting to flow what has landed on the coil and have it seep in. It doesn't go ALL the way in, but as I say, it's really the outer 1/3 one is most concerned about. And after I've done the "superficial potting", *then* I use the teflon tape.
@@markhammer643 You could probably use a craft wax gun. It's similar to a glue gun and you buy it in craft stores.
On the LP style pickguards, I always thought a better way to mount it was to put the one screw in the top near the neck pickup, and have a piece of felt stuck on the underside of the pickguard to stand it off the face of the guitar. Of course, there's an unused hole in the pickguard but like you said, we're all so used to seeing it, we might not even think about it.
Enjoy listening to you, I am an old guitarist and I am still learning. Anything guitar has my eyes and ears.
You came up with a clever new way of getting that pickup kill switch effect without having to turn down a volume knob.
I’ve been watching every single video you post. I get almost nothing else done. No ragrets.
Ragrets?
Rugrats😊
@@ceebee491 Possibly!
@@DMSProduktions On the internet, you either say "no ragrets" or "no regerts", in honor of the various bad tattoo memes.
@@grayaj23 LOL! NO! I don't do 'memes'! Those are for 50 y/o basement dwelling virgin incels!
This is the most relaxing failure I've ever witnessed. Seriously, congratulations on that. I could never do it. There would have been much gnashing of teeth and rending of fur by the end of the video. You are the Zen.
Great fun. Spent this morning plugging my guitars in and shouting at them😁
Time well spent.... Unless the neighbours saw you and you're getting a "wellness call" from the cops 😂
I had a set of pickups from iron gear arrive, and sometime during shipping (UK to Australia) they were stored somewhere super hot because the wax had completely melted out of the pickups and into their cases. It reset and you couldn't get them out without breaking the case they come in.
Sent them an email, they had a new replacement set in the mail that day and also told what to do to make the melted wax set useable.
Great company, good pickups.
Thank you for saving me the time! Love the show, wit and sometimes humor. Try on high fret, recrown that one the amount you need to get rid of the buzz. Will work and save time!
“I’m hoping this will be easy”. The story of my life!
I'm amazed at how much better it looks without the covers. I would have never guess that.
Great setup and play with Ryan episode today 👍good video
Ryan, Very Cool Video, I Appreciate your Straight forward video on this fly guitar. Every guitar player needs to be aware of microphonic issues.
Rock on Bro.
Tell Editing Ryan this is a good video. I was entertained and informed. Mission accomplished.
I have one of these. For the price you can’t beat it. You have to really search for the finish mistakes. Mine also has a buzzing fret or two higher up the neck. I agree, they are certainly the best option for anyone that wants to practice their tech skills without putting an expensive guitar at risk. I’ll probably pick up a couple more and leave them in alternate tunings.
Awesome video as always keep up rock on
very entertaining and informative , had lot of fun watching your video...
AND IM VERY SURPRISED TAKING THE COVERS OFF ACTUALLY WORKED. YOU THOUGHT ME SOMETHING TODAY. AWESOME.
Maybe next video is installing cheap, cheap, really cheap pickups. Love the video. I think you should sample the microphonic “Stay Grounded” for the outtro of all your videos.
To Editing Ryan,
Yes this was a good and worthwhile video in my opinion. A little project that many prodded as easy diy can become a situation that you wish you would've just paid a "professional" to look at. I have a similar experience with building and modding effect pedals too. $20 worth of parts but I dont have a skills to solder them into the the close proximity without coloring outside of the lines!
ALL your videos are great!
Thank you Mister Rogers/Hendrix
That was fun, watching you do some work on the guitar, unpretentious and relaxed. Like :“let‘s see what happens“.
But had to look away as you worked on that pickup using the top of the guitar as a working bench… a very nice veneered, stained red, highly polished 200$ little bench🤪😅
Hey, I'm left handed and play righty too. It seems more natural to me to use my dominant hand for fretting. Maybe that's why my right hand technique is equivalent to beating the strings with a sock full of quarters. ;) When I pulled the covers off my FFLP I ended up with a black/white bridge pickup and a black/cream neck pickup. They still sounded dull and lifeless without the covers so I replaced them with a set of Epiphone ProBuckers.
A friend bought a Glarry Tele style guitar for me as a gift. The bridge pickup was so microphonic, every time I looked at it you could hear my eyes thru the amp.
I subscribe because you don't pretend to be a pro! I like the sometimes unprepared situations and love when you do refinishing and designs. Keep doing 'Ryan's and I will always subscribe!
Great video! I have a FF LP inbound, will check for microphonic pickups and I dig the look with the covers removed...I'll be careful with those leads! :)
Damn Ryan I knew the was a reason I liked you channel. Even when something doesn't work, we all still learn something. Didn't know the little tid-bit about you being ambidextrous. I too am the same way. Left hand dominant but play right, baseball right handed, right legged kicker, and right hand shooter as well. To answer, Yes! These video are great and important.
I did it to a 338 firefly. It also had wax potted pickups but not that much! A little wipe and they were clean. My technique was to wedge an exacto knife behind the solder, heat it up an slide the knife through. Worked great! Definitely improved the tone, and microphonic problem.
Thats a great tip!
But it did not solve the problem on the LP. It still squealed. I also have the 338. I will just have to replace the pickups I guess.
i have a "newer" 338 that actually sounds pretty nice, way way better than the FFLPS that was a few months older. I fixed the FFLPS with a JB SH-4 in the bridge.
Thank you for doing this in the name of science!
I watched this entire thing. It was a good video.
great time , had fun watching. Don't worry about the negative people. Life should be fun
Hello Ryan, I really appreciate this video. I took a weekend luthier course and learned a few things so that I could tinker with my guitars. You went deep on this one. Was the neck pick up completely dead? Did you replace that pick up with another pick up?
So.. Good job on what not to do Ryan. Also this should be a lesson on how fragile pickups actually are. Overall it would be the less expensive route to either buy GFS pickups or buy a used set of humbuckers that came off a higher priced guitar and put them in a cheap guitar.
I have made some pickups with Jason Lollar a few years back at Roberto Venn here in Phoenix, so you can take a semi pro's response here.
First if you like your pickups and want to keep them, my suggestion would either take it to a luthier to get it repotted or do it yourself if you have the setup (most will not). Honestly on a cheap pickup just replace them, you will be much happier.
If you do take a cover off you would want to do it in a similar fashion as Ryan did with the soldering iron but use a razor blade or a hobby knife to break the solder hold. What taking the pickup cover off is it changes the magnetic field a bit also it leaves the pickup a little more prone to outside noise vs having a metal cover on it. So it really does not help a microphonic pickup change to being nonmicrophonic. If you had the machine to wind pickups one could cut the windings away and redo the whole pickup but you would be better off just getting new parts and making your own.
Ryan, you should get GFS Surf 90 pickups to drop in the Firefly guitar. You should be MUCH happier with that. Also gut the pots on switch if you want a better sound.
great video boss
Great topic for a video Ryan. I like when you do this stuff. I’m too chicken to try this out by myself 😀. Now maybe I’ll try
I always felt most comfortable with my left hand on the guitar neck at a young age so playing right handed just seemed so natural to my lefty born self. Maybe a softer more plastic wax removing tool when your getting into those coils. The ol straightblade looked pretty abusive near that tiny wire and hilarious. 😆
I'd try turning it face down and using a hair dryer to run the wax into the covers a bit more. Are the covers magnetic?
Awesome video....thanks so much.
I'm like you trial an error is what do. LoL it is relaxing to see and hear some of the same issues I've been learning 👍👍
Really cool video. Just be you. Entertaining, educational and funny. I have a microphonic problem on my guitar too. Thanks for the tips.
Mighty fine lookin lp. Ive always loved red les pauls
Hey Ryan what's your opinion on harley benton explorers?. Just got one and it's awesome 👌👏😎
This was a pretty good video! Love these sort of "monkeying around" videos.
another banger from the king of "strange man in a garage" content ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
I was finding all of these Firefly guitar reviews a bit unbelievable.
How is all of this possible!?
So, on a whim I pushed the button on Guitar Garden.
I just got the newest offering of the FF338 in Chameleon Green. Absolutely wild color changes in the light from a beautiful green to blue to purple to an almost eggplant shade. Not just the top, but the back, sides, and neck. This looks like a very high end paint job. The body and "f" hole bindings are crisp and clean. It has locking tuners, a bone nut, stainless steel frets with hemispherical ends, alnico 5 pickup magnets, a small pin ABR style bridge, and full size pots. Right out of the box the set up was great (high E: 1/16", low E: 3/32". The neck had a smidge of relief and the intonation was spot on) - just tune and play.
I plugged it into my Bartel Roseland and was very impressed.
I don’t have to do anything to this guitar. Wow.
Well, I've seen it, so now I believe it.
But for $180, I don't know how it's all possible.
7:10 yeah it's most likely shielding paint. Easy way to test is to put a meter on it, set for continuity and test on two locations inside the pickup cavity. But it seems overkill since they're humbuckers.
21:00 I am also left handed and play right handed. I also shoot a gun right handed. I find that it was easier to conform to right handed people when it came to guitars and guns, than to spend the extra money and try to find a lefty guitar. Also, I felt I would stand out too much being a lefty
Til that guns come in right and left handed versions
@@AmperahGaming At a higher cost. Lefty specific things always cost more than the right handed counterparts.
It is polishing compound from the buffing process at the factory. It under truss rod cover and a few other nooks and crannies.
ok, time for some hugs, no need for all the harshness below lol. I watched this on my lunch break, because I too have a firefly, with squeelling pups, and my lutheir friend mentioned, hey, lets just wax them if that is all they need? I said, nope, here are my new SD SH2, SH4 JB, JAZZ new pickup set, gold plated to match the LP hardware, and we will have new pups :) So glad I made that decision lol! I was rooting for ya though, because we where still undecieded on what to do them after they are removed. now I know, just toss them in the trash, but I appreciate your vid, you are way more adventurous than most of us!
Wow... the FLAMED TRANSPARENT ORANGE really pops. ( the color ) 🤩🤩
I took the covers off on a -79 Gibson 345 once and it became a high gain guitar after that. Totally awesome.
Wouldn't do that today, but this was -81, so no vintage at the time and I was a jazz/rock wannabe.
Get some solder flux and brush a small bit on the braided solder remover and then lay the wet solder braid on the area where you want to remove the solder/heat the braid. It helps liquify the solder after its heated up. As well, I would use a proper length stand off (like a solid stack of washers) behind the pick guard. Never done it, but has to look better than the cheap Chinese metal L bracket.
Def a fun little video! Keep on keeping on. Fwiw I have a firefly that came with an open ground shield on a pot.
Hi- enjoy your vids very much
Here’s what I do to un-wax pickups:
Place pickup on a mound of paper towel
Using a hair dryer on high heat, heat up the pickup and watch the wax melt into the towel. Only remove enough wax so that the excess is gone. While still warm wipe the pickup off.
You can use a heat gun- but you have to be careful you don’t torch the pickup or hurt the guitar- if the pickup is still attached. Really the hairdryer is more than adequate
My road to right-handed guitars was just like everything else. I also write left-handed but here we are living on a right-handed planet. Pretty much the only lefty thing I do is write/draw, everything else was more or less "converted." I used to air guitar as a lefty in the before times but when I finally got a guitar I enlisted a much more experienced friend to assist in its purchase and he showed up with a righty and gave me a quick lesson. Unlike a determined Jimi, I did not just flip it over and re-work it, I instead, dutifully, went about re-wiring my brain like I had with scissors or a baseball glove and carried on. One wonders what could've been... different. What if... Spiderman had been given an adamantium skeleton? Anyway, a righty who plays lefty-- now that dude is truly an anomaly.
There’s nothing to expect to get from that pickup moving forward . I’d be excited
First off, I have a much smaller channel, but I am on par with your repair/upgrade skills. 😂😂😂 The best thing about cheap guitars today is, the quality has made leaps and bounds. You get a really decent that's not _too_ good. It's build quality is good enough, they typically use good wood, and look pretty cool. The fact they are +-$200 makes it worry-free upgrade territory. If I fudge it up, which is a 50/50 proposition, no sweat!, it was $200, keep trying til you get it good enough!
Great video. I feel better.
I'm a lefty playing righty guy as well. I learned as a kid, because my parents bought me a right handed acoustic and I didn't really think about it, I just played.
I enjoy you so much I feel you are a really cool guy thank you for the video and I did learn something I do like the firefly guitars 👍
Don't let the hateful commentors make you jaded, man! You have a nice little program here, and many enjoy watching.
My assumption is something creating a condenser microphone and really was surprised when it still was working afterwards.
Are strings vibrating through air-pressure?
NO one ever points out the stop tail placement, which is wrong on real Gibsons, too close to the bridge, but actually looks like better placement on the FF
Will it make the sound bighter instead of warmer and will the volume increase? I personally prefer brighter sound like in a Telecaster or legacy Gretsch. Let's see...
Like the look of multicoloured pickup and matching pick guard.
Of course I keep watching, it's December and I'm in Pennsylvania. I ain't going outside, it's cold.
I bought an '05 Epiphone Les Paul standard a couple months back and it sounded very muffled with the pickup covers on so I took them off. I also had to take the pickup ring off, it sucks. It sounds WAY better now. Also my covers had a lot more solder on them than that. I had to cut through the solder with the saw on my multi tool. And then work through it with a knife or a screwdriver. Can't remember which. It was a bit harder than what you went through haha. Also I was very careful in making sure I didn't catch that wire when scraping the wax off, I came close! It's really easy to do.
I don't consider you a strange man but the self-deprecating humor is funny
Sounds really good actually
I'm dying! This is the funniest video you've done, keep up the good work!
Flux helps heat and distrubute said heat both for soldering and desoldering purposes. I dig your style 🤘🏻
Do you have a cream & white pickup to replace it with?
I made my vacuum chamber from a super thick (5 mm) Anolon saucepan that I got for $5 at a thrift store because the teflon coating was toast. I laid wet or dry sandpaper on a flat granite tile and then wet sanded the top of the saucepan perfectly flat. I cut a gasket from silicone sheet and glued it to the cover made from a 1/2" thick piece of polycarbonate that I bought from a surplus store for about $5. I drilled out the rivets that held on the handle. I tapped one of the holes and screwed in a hose fitting with Loctite on the threads. I tapped the second rivet hole and screwed in a small valve (Also with Loctite) to use as a vacuum release. I bought a refrigeration style vacuum pump on Amazon for under $60. I use a mix of 80% paraffin canning wax and about 20% beeswax. The beeswax reduces the shrinkage while cooling. You need to get the paraffin wax fairly hot to get the beeswax to melt. But once it is mixed you can allow the wax to cool considerably before you do the potting.
Well I guess the best way to fix microphonic Pup,s is to buy new Pup,s but it was a learning experience and a good video!!🎸 Rock on Ryan
After seeing to the end, and seeing the bobbins, if you have a guitar like that. You really like the guitar and it's a keeper for you, go with some Dimarzio distortions, the double creams, cause that looks really good.
Even though these seemed to be wax potted, you should try putting then in hot wax first next time, before removing covers. That will reflow the the wax and help with the microphonics. Another trick I saw in a better quality pickup with a cover, when I removed the cover, was that they put masking tape over the slugs in the pickup.
Yeah, I think they're either not potting them long enough or the wax isn't hot enough to get between the windings.
@@mkgearhead5151 I got a single coil shaped humbucker from china. Sounds great but it is microphonic. I wax potted it again. (it was potted from factory). Still microphonic but a lot better. Got two different type single humbuckers from china.....they cost a little more. 12.00 ea. They were fine. Other one was about 7.00. It pays to pay a little more for the chinese stuff. (my good ones have a plastic cover...figure that) They sell the stuff with problems cheaper. Either way the guitar sounds great....with a line level they got punch. I get the LP type humbuckers for about 14.00 each on aliexpress or ebay (same pickups). They are usually very good and no microphonic noise when wax potted. The 13k ones.
That firefly really looks good
13:20 Yes. That's most likely exactly what is going on. Probably just enough space between the bobbin and the cover to vibrate. But is it just the neck pickup that's really microphonic?
both pickups were about the same amount of microphonic.
@@60CycleHumcast I made that comment and then you showed that they were still microphonic. Just really awful pickups, maybe. I found it funny that they didn't match when you took the covers off. Also, I'm stoked you replied to my comment! 😁
Weird my 338 FF doesnt have any issues with the pickups being microphonic. Ive had it plugged into my 4x12 cab thru a Marshall cranked before. Weird.
I have used a utility knife to cut the solder off the cover. I'm not a fan of the 'erector set' pick guard bracket either. BTW, my first time watching one of your videos. I'll be watching more. Also a lefty who plays right handed.
13:55 “It’s amazing how many people will watch a video of some strange man in a garage talking to himself.”
I’m a strange man in a kitchen watching a video of some strange man in a garage while I’m eating my breakfast.
When people start watching me, some strange man in the kitchen watching some strange man in a garage, then we will have achieved the peak irony!
Very Truman show-esq. The watchers are always watching!
Thanks, hey, I'm no expert either, took 4 tries to install a wiring harness into an old Japanese Aria Diamond 335, and finally got it after giving up a few times. Yep, its easy if you know how !
That cream and white is pretty interesting, I kind of like that
Este video es genial!!! 😂😂😂 Muchas gracias, me divertí mucho!
11:04 - when you pulled the wax corner flake off, also broke the solder joint?
The easy way to put a humbucker in the pickup ring is to use a crocodile clip to hold the spring out of the way
Man you were cracking me up. Nice , I cant believe all that wax. whew
This is a good video
I actually kinda like that two tone pickup look! Reminds me of the zebra humbuckers in my PRS Custom 22 and 24 :)
I find the Dragonfire pickups very inexpensive and sound really good. I've used them on several guitars
DO FIREFLY GUITARS HAVE DRAGON FIRE PICKUPS?
@@bdavis8489 I honestly do not know who manufacturers the pickups for Dragon fly guitars. But, by judging by the price of a dragonfly guitars I do not believe they would have Dragonfire pickups in then. As I said before Dragonfire pickups are great pickups for the price I have them in six of my guitars. And love them
@@edgaeta2001 At that price, they're probably mass produced no name generic pickups. And if so many are microphonic, the quality must be shit.
@franciscanlady6491 Do your research. Having purchased and installed a few sets, they are not microphonic. I have a Les Paul with a set of Seymour duncans. And 3 other les pauls with dragonfires in them. And they exhibit no less quality. By the way, I use Marshall heads on 4x12 cabs..
I love watching someone else have that "Dammit, this was supposed to be easy!" feeling. I felt so lonely until now.
I thought the wax was supposed to be applied before the wrapping over the wires, not after. I'm no tech either... it's funny how you made the neck pickup less microphonic (and the bridge pickup non-microphonic🤣)
I believe that to be the case. I've always wondered how these builders - who clearly know how to make guitars - don't know this.