Exactly and part of that is because not only are reviewers pressured to be lenient by publishers or they don't get review codes (I rarely get them), but also by fans of the games who don't want to be let down by a release and so are eager to have a reviewer be more lenient. As a reviewer you end up in this nasty pincer a lot of times.
Bought it. Played it. Enjoyed it. Not trying to make a career out of scoring on this or any stg. Just having fun. As always thanks for the in depth and thoughtful analysis Mark. Keep on keeping on!
My goal is to help inform the players on the performance and features of the ports they buy, so as long as you know what s going on with the port it s all good whatever the players do after that point :-)
At this point, I think we need a time travel technology, to fix Sega Saturn emulation input lag. There is so much good stuff that stucked on old consoles and arcades, it' ridiculous. Especially when you consider, that companies, who made original hardware, don't give a f**k.
Runs fine on my PC Saturn or Arcade versions. Test my Lag using Saturnas without run ahead and I get 4 frames between button press and reaction on screen with on a rare occasion only 3. Almost always 4. Seems fine to me.
Ha I wanted to include some kind of visual acting for the pizza story at the start, and then decided to use it here and there in the vid since I already had to script out a lot of it off cam
Always a fantastic, in-depth review! Also, fwiw G-Darius HD also has the "instant save state slots" feature. Its super useful. M2 to the rescue. Im gonna hold out until M2 ports this bad boy.... Lol
Well, as soon as I heard it was a City Connection port from Saturn I think I knew it was going to be laggy so I didn't purchase, thank you for your review and for confirming!
This is your funniest intro ! Bro your a really Funny dude and one of the best real Reviewers out there. I have purchased 20 games this month because of your Shmups alone in December .
Good video, though some things about it, they certainly went with the Saturn version because of two reasons 1) the Zebra engine which they have already invested a lot in it, 2) They don’t want only to port Batsugun but a Saturn game, that in my opinion, it’s something to be grateful that a company has decided to take the challenge of porting Saturn games to new platforms, something that I believe not many companies would be willing to do for a lot of reason, so I got my physical copy of Batsugun, because I hope they can keep releasing more Saturn games. Anyway, your technical review is spot on, it all makes sense, but I think when it comes to port of old Saturn games, we should consider other factors too. Thanks for the video!
Oh yeah the Saturn game port question is an interesting one because there are some Saturn games, like silvergun, which are essentially made for the system. However in the case of batsugun, it is a port of a port, a double decker. Because the Saturn version is just trying to copy the arcade version anyway. It s like trying to port the Saturn version of dodonpachi essentially. Why do that instead of going right to that source?
@@TheElectricUnderground Because they are specifically targeting Saturn games, technically for Batsugun might make little sense, but otherwise they couldn’t 1) Use Zebra and 2) label it like a “Saturn Tribute” game if they use the arcade game.
City Connection probably also doesn't have rights to the arcade version, because Bitwave will likely be doing that on PC, and M2 on console. The Saturn emulation route is *probably* the only avenue they had available to them. I've said before that I'm not that sensitive to input delay, but 6 frames is definitely in the margin where I would feel it. It's unfortunate that they haven't figured out how to make Saturn emulation snappier, but I guess that's where we're at. I'm still tempted to buy the JP physical release to get the CD soundtracks that have both the original and arrange, because I'm a nerd and love that stuff. I haven't decided yet, however. Maybe if I find a good deal on it, I can justify the cost XD
If you have a PS4/5 get it. It's great and very responsive. There's a lot of irrationality about City Connection's Saturn Tribute series, but Layer Section's demo was great and this is also.
I think you are right about this guru, but I feel like in that case they shouldn't have done the port at all. Because they are making a product that they know will be heavily compromised performance wise, and are going to take players money for it anyway. They should have said no let's work on a different port or gone in and done a true port rather than slapped together emulation. There are ways to do this port properly, so I m not one to say oh well close enough ha.
Given they released a new version of Batsugun in arcades via the Exa System, I wouldn’t expect a home port of the arcade originals AT ALL, not anytime in the next 5 years.
Hmmm I don't think the exa version will necessarily prevent more home ports, as it is an arcade release rather than a home port. Also shmups ports are overlapping a lot more, like right now we have two different PC ports of deathsmiles ha
@@TheElectricUnderground I believe they worked out some exclusivity in order to publish games in the platform, hence no Aka to Blue port yet. Though there has been some overlap with other titles so perhaps there’s hope.
The PS4 version is on its way to me. For $40 I took a shot that it’s decent. Can probably still beat it at 5 or 6 frames of lag. I already own the Saturn disc and I hear it’s being worked on for MiSTer, which is great news.
yeah the ps4 version is likely less laggy by a frame. That tends to be the general trend for sure. But it could also be 6 frames as well, who knows. Of course city connection would never send me any review codes to check without having to pay a pile of money to get all the different versions to look at.
@@reinhart.sieger it’s not a bad product. I’ve gotten almost the same score on this as I did on the Saturn version. I would love 1 or 2 less frames of lag, but it’s playable. An extra frame on the Switch as opposed to PS4 would really put it on the edge though.
City connection probanly did not made the arcade port probably because bitwave has the rights. Bitwave is the closest to m2 without the fancy stuff. Bitwave started bad, but now those ports of toaplan have been patched and when it comes to game essentials they are in the top of the game. Waiting for them to port batsugun
So I think there is some crazy bidding wars going on with these ports, because do bitwave have the console rights? They are PC only right? So we might see bitwave on steam and m2 on PS4 and switch ha
I wonder if a similar arrangement between M2 and Bitwave can be done for CAVE's IP. Maybe if Bitwave gets enough of a reputation from their Toaplan ports, they'll be able to do CAVE PC ports too!
Been playing it since release. Feels fine on PS5. Supposedly avg 4-5 (4.91) frames. My problem is with Trophies not dropping. I'm 2 off the Platinum and can't get the one for shooting the plane (I get the point bonus, but not the Trophy) and the one for scoring 1,000,000 from pigs.
I would bet 5 frames, 4 seems really unlikely. The question I really want to pose with this review though is that when m2 or bitwave release their ports, will this port be viable at all (I would say no)
@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah the avg is close to 5. Honestly, it feels great to me. If M2 get around to Batsugun in 2028, I'll get it and prob focus on the other game it's paired with. Until then I've got this. M2 take forever. The next Toaplan is July and DOJ is likely Oct/Nov with another Toaplan some time early 2024. The problem in all of this is Tatsujin the owners trying to max out every opportunity. Don't forget these things are on Evercade too.
For anyone having the same problems. Make sure your hitbox is set to default. You have to play 100% default for these particular Trophies. I just got the Platinum.
I bought it on Steam and Im enjoying it.The lag isnt amazing but i dont have the competence to use emulation and I also know that M2 will release their port sometime before Amageddon apparently. It's not the most responsive but then again neither am I !!In all seriousness it meets my average player needs i.e to be able to experience and enjoy Batsugun , especiaaly until M2s boutique edition arrives, but thats me and i totally see how it may be an issue for others, especially elite players.
The thing about input lag that I want to do a vid on is that it's not just a matter of it effecting high tier players (though it does) but it greatly impacts the feel of the game for all players. Like when you buy a taco from taco bell, and they put that cheap meat filler in. If you don't think about it then whatever right, but if you ve tasted pure beef, then you immediately notice the difference in taste
@The Electric Underground yeah input lag does affect all players to some degree.I noticed this when I started turning v-sync off on my PC.It was a revelation.But, at the same time I can live with some releases like this one as a casual experience, which enables non- tech savvy emulation peeps like myself to access games like Batsugun fairly cheaply. M2 is of course on another tier.I was playing Rayz today and it's just awesome, but I'm glad at the availability of the CC release on modern consoles and the lag can be worked around for casual play, which IMHO is whom this release is targeted at primarily.
@@then1533vsync is a perfect example! I, cant stand screen tearing so im always forcing vsync on pc (since decades, when it was way laggier than today). Id rather take some lag in most cases. So 4-6 frames aka around 100ms is fine with me on a casual level.. Can often times barely notice the difference to be honest (compared some ports to my mister on crt). Maybe im just too old though 😅 (40)
Haha it was so cheap on Play-Asia I almost had a brain fart and ordered it. Then by luck noticed somebody elsewhere pipe up about City Connection lag and general bad port weirdness. Knew I dodged a bullet. Which I couldn’t have done if I bought it (badum pshhhhh)
I love all of these port collections like Batsugun Tribute and Psikyo Shooting Library but yeah I understand there are certainly some problems. Great video.
If you are a fan of the game, don't be afraid to get this version, after all, after this new generation was launched especially by Microsoft, we haven't had many Shmup titles of this caliber available lately. City Connection may not be the best company for such a task, but its bravery in trying to bring the titles we love to the light of the new generation has created good results and it is in this vibe that we hope that other important titles like Dodonpachi also manage to come out of the cave and be bathed in the light of current consoles, just as they were brilliantly promoted by Rising Star, M2 and other companies in the field of emulation for last generation consoles.
I bought it and was pleasantly surprised. Love the boosted soundtrack and I don’t think the lag is that bad on the PS4. Nearly did a 1CC with my arcade RAP4 8 way stick. Yeah, I really like it.
At least there's still hope, for example cityconnection ported over the console version of Rayforce, but M2 did the arcade versions, so there is hope that the same will happen, or someone else at least.
I think the game plays great, all things considered. Great new soundtrack that absolutely rips and some nice setting features like the hit box one mentioned. Its a hat-on-a-hat but we all know why, and considering that i still think its neat we have a modern, accessible version of the saturn port of Batsugun. Lag be damned, i think the 5-6 frames is on par for what it is, a consumer level offering. I say this with respect and as a fan of the channel I just think CC deserve a little more credit on this one. If you are able to try the game for yourself please do so before writing it off completely. Steam has a generous return policy otherwise.
Maybe I dreamt it but I could’ve sworn I read M2 were doing a port of Batsugun (if that’s even possible with City Connection doing this port), or maybe I’m just getting some wires crossed as they’re doing a lot of Toaplan projects.
M2 will port the arcade version so expect 3-4 frames on that. This is 5-6 on PS4 and switch respectively as it’s a Saturn port and for my money, a great version. I’d recommend it 100%
@@arronetchells4363 I'm actually lucky enough to own the Saturn version but I'd really like this nice HD version, and for the nice new music. The lag is a bit concerning though. If an M2 port is definitely coming, I'll hold off and wait. If there is no M2 port in the pipeline I'll probably take the plunge and get this.
@@beingsupersonic7499 thanks for the reply buddy! If you own the Saturn version and an OSSC then stay as you are as you can upscale the Saturn port with the OSSC to a great near HD image. If not then this version is solid but if you are very sensitive to lag, wait for the M2 port which will come at some point, hopefully sooner rather than later 🙏
yep i think they are going to! I don't know that for sure, but I think it is highly likely that they are going to port over the arcade versions of games and will blow this port out of the sky. Then everyone who bought this version will have a $30-40 shelf filler
@@arronetchells4363 I was actually gonna treat myself to an OSSC Christmas just gone, but they were out of stock, and actually not getting a restock until Q3 OR Q4 of this year😭 so will most likely get one then🤟
My bet is that they only own the rights to these Saturn ports. Metal Black also received this S-Tribute, but surprise surprise the arcade version released simultaneously through the HAMSTER Archives collection... and cheaper! so they actually had to lower the initial price they were asking because it made no sense whatsoever. I think you're spot on with the fact that it will most likely be ported again by either M2 or Bitwave, in fact EXA is already releasing their own improved arcade version so...
Yeah I think this is absolutely the case. And so I wish that instead of City Connection just running the game through a laggy emulator, they did a more old school style of port where they moved the code over and everything. That way we wouldn't have that double decker lag sandwich.
6 frames is just too much for me to recommend, especially because just over the horizon it is very likely we will see another port based on the arcade version. So be prepared to buy the game again ha
I appreciate these reviews. My first question whenever I hear a new arcade game or shmup port announced for switch is, "what are the input lag numbers." Especially with these saturn ports, I always try to find that info and I usually can't. The info isn't out there. Maybe you feel like it's beating a dead horse to mention input lag again with regard to Shitty Connection, but I don't. The more available this information is, the more people will start to understand what input lag even is, why it matters for arcade games and why consumers should expect a certain standard of emulation in these commercial products we pay money for.
Yes the input lag is such an important metric because it is critical to how the game plays and is really baked into the ports typically. So it s one issue that is almost never patched as to do that would involve just redoing the whole port.
Interesting about the 3 built in frames of lag on Saturn. I noticed when working on Strikers for Saturn through an emulator that the final stage took me around 6 hours to beat. Tried the game on PS1 emulator and beat it within 30 minutes. I had to really memorize all my positions rather than react on the Saturn version. Waiting for the Mister FPGA to support Saturn properly before playing anymore shooters on Saturn emulation.
Yep PS1 emulation is miles ahead of Saturn emulation. The Saturn is just so weird and it is likely that the PS1 even has more responsive hardware than the Saturn. Would be interesting to check
@@TheElectricUnderground It was good to see confirmation on the laggy saturn emulation, as I could really feel it when I tried the game on PS1 emulator. Didnt know about base saturn being laggy to begin with, Im sure that doesnt help. If Mister FPGA ever properly supports saturn Ill let you know if I notice a difference. Waiting for full support.
I have a blast playing this on handheld mode, special ver + new ost, feels like a new game, didn't feel to me like a laggy game at least on portable mode and I have to say special ver is so much fun than pcb version, I think is great that they ported the saturn one, as always great vid
It is laggy I m afraid, my tests are just as fast as what you get in handheld mode. If you have mushi in the switch just fire it up and you will immediately feel the input lag difference
u are right mushi feels like wired to my head, so responsive but dont know maybe I'm use to play some laggy shit and im okay with 6 frames? cause batsu feels great I reach 8 loop on special ver on the first play, im using split pad pro dont know if it is a difference with the original joycons in terms of lag, un saludo amigo
Your opening monologue brought to mind when bill murray dropped his pizza at the beginning of Stripes. (No one will probably know what im talking about but just act like you do. I need me a win.) 😔
I am thrilled these ports are coming to the Switch and PS4. These games are inaccessible to most people and most don’t want to mess with emulation. Most people don’t care if it’s 4 or 6 frames of lag. Of course no lag would be better. I’m just happy these games are coming back. These games have a cult following, but they won’t sell well. Your asking a company to put in double the effort for no money. Your probably hoping these companies will do better jobs at porting, but I’m worried your complaining will cause them to stop porting great shmups from the past. Anyway, just my opinion.
And a great opinion it is. This is a great port and I’m sure the eventual port by M2 as part of the Toaplan Arcade Garage will be better but until then, the more people who have access to such a quality shmup the better.
What a perfect review. Great analogy. So funny and true. People shove badly emulated/ported retro games aside as: "not as fun as I remember". That annoys the F out of me, because I love retro games. But those poor souls do not realize why they are not enjoying them as much. I think all games should have an optional lag counter and also an optional framerate counter for all to see exactly how good or bad a game (port) is done. I literally have no questions. You addressed everything and more! Thanks for saving us the effort, money and suffering. I just of thought of you in that goofy heavy metal wig again and laughed I really enjoyed the Saturn port, great music and low difficulty on early levels. Those level up sound effects are insane! I consider Batsugun to be DonPachi Zero.
Yes critics need to stop treating ports and the source material as 1 to 1, especially in shmups. Because you can have a fantastic game and then have it ruined by the porting process
Do you use a CRT VGA for your measurements? I noticed a CRT VGA using Amazon power-free converters saves a frame vs the PS3DTV. Also isn't City Connection a game frim Jaleco? Is this developer related to Jaleco?
Yes I do! I use an old school VGA crt with a fast HDMI to VGA DAC. It s the fastest way to display a switch that I have found. The other way that s about as responsive though slightly laggier is handheld mode
The PS4 (and Pro) automatically record your PS4 playing for I think up to 90 minutes, and while it is 720p, it's only at 30fps and there's no setting to change it to 60fps. So any replay clip you save to your PS4 console and try to upload to Twitch or RUclips will be 720p but only at 30fps. I dunno if PS5 allows for better replay save clips though.
Yeah, and with RUclips's encoding and bitrate shenanigans, 720p looks AWFUL. Even 1080p looks really muddy nowadays, so the lower resolutions will be even worse off. And this is before factoring in danmaku or millions of star items that destroy the bitrate even more. I looked up the PS5's recording functionality out of curiosity before, and Sony upgraded it to 1080p60 and 4K60, so it should be pretty solid! But the PS5 is also super pricy. It might be better to get a capture card instead to record the PS4's display output directly.
@@lunaria_stg Glad to hear that the PS5 records properly, you're right about the PS4 (and PS4 Pro) being 720p but being an extremely compressed and blurry 720p. I usually just livestream anything I want to record off of my PS4 on youtube via my wifi, it's heavily compressed because of youtube sucking but it's 720p 60fps and good enough for what i'm wanting to do.
Yeah I know it's a bummer that the ps4 pro can't do 60fps. It's not ideal for sure, but it's still serviceable if you were merely trying to show your gameplay to your fellow players. As a video maker though, yeah still hugely lacking.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I was looking forward to this game and City Connection has let me down again. I was looking forward to the Cotton tribute games and they let me down then, and they are letting me down again now with Batsugun. I should look into finding out if the team at City Connection can be pallbearers at my funeral so after I die, they can let me down one last time.
yeah I think the city connection team can make some decent ports, if they have really really generous source material to copy off of (like the xbox 360 port of deathsmiles). But if they are tasked with a more ground up style port, that would be required for something like this, I would not pre order from them. Def wait and see because they seem to always go with the plug and play option for emulation and aren't too fussed with how much lag that may cause.
I think the use of the Saturn versions is really more about development costs, and having a fully-baked front end ready-to-go. If they did a new emulation they'd have to hire UI artists and FE Engineers to create all the menus, title screens, continue/game over flows required to create a console experience. With the Saturn versions, they get all that for free, quality be damned.
It’s because M2 will be porting the arcade version so CC had to do the Saturn version. Saying that, this is actually a great port and not as bad as he’s making out. I’d recommend checking it out for yourself 👍
That is absolutely true! But in my case I am one to say that if a port can't be done properly, especially with lag, then it should not be done at all, because now city connection is knowingly taking people s money for a flawed release that they can't hope to improve anytime soon
@@TheElectricUnderground It already has lag as it’s a Saturn port hence the ‘S Tribute’ label on the box. 2x16.67ms is all that differentiates it from that port which, in relative terms, isn’t a massive amount. It’s within enjoyable levels just not as elite as the 2-3 frames the PCB offers. Let’s not forget, this is a modern HD version which, on modern displays, will never be as accurate as the original played on a CRT. This is the next best thing until the M2 port arrives.
@@arronetchells4363 2 frames of lag is pretty hefty on top of the expected 3. And it seems closer to actually 3 frames extra lag. I think lag is on an exponential curve of significance and so 5-6 frames may as well be unplayable in the same sense rain boots are for jogging. But also this is made worse considering LCD’s add another 1-2 frames, and even the arcade stick might add another 1 frame. So we’re in, effectively, 8-9 frame lag territory which is actually insane.
I imagined my favorite pizza from my favorite pizza shop, but with this city connection version I feel like I just got Gino’s/Totino’s store bought pizza.
Hello, I’ve come from the future to tell you that Batsugun is being ported by Bitwave, how quality of the port is still being determined, but after the Bitwave’s other collections things might be looking up for Batsugun to receive its best home version.
Me as well ha. It s just a very bad idea at this stage because they are emulating the Saturn versions, and emulation of Saturn is laggy laggy laggy. It would be better if they ported it properly without emulation, but that would be a ton of work on their part (so of course they won't)
Jeez this is making me wanna play Batsugun on my Saturn. Gonna fire it up tomorrow. Save up and buy a Saturn if you can afford one, so many great games.
Question: Did they port this to the PC out of panic from losing relevance or something? As I said earlier, these legendary shmups came to the PC way too late programming-wise and market-wise. The former because they don't seem to have experience with PC hardware, the latter because I'm not sure it would attract new fans. Also, how much input lag did Touhou have with the keyboard?
I think the PC ports are a specialty of city connection unlike m2. But bitwave are now doing PC ports of toaplan too, so we could see competing PC ports like we have with deathsmiles ha. Also I haven't lag tested touhou but I understand with vsync patches it s very very responsive
@@bubbles934 This is my only problem with some Shmups at the moment, I mean if they don't do a physical I can understand due to them being a bit niche. But come on man, why should I have to get an import download 🤦it's way too much trouble to have to go to.
I think they will actually! I think they are going to do the port of the arcade version. Thing is because m2 are such quality releases, they take longer to come out, whereas city connection can just plug this into their laggy zebra engine and call it good.
I can’t figure out how to use the stage select without also getting revenge bullets. It’s like no matter what setting you adjust, it will always act like you’re on at least the 2nd loop
I don't think you can actually select the stage, only which loop and how powered up you want to be. It's confusing because it uses the word LEVEL, but that applies to shot power.
This would be a definite pass at $60 or $70. However, until I have a better port in hand -- I'm comfortable taking the risk on this port. It's going to be a niche release physically and I should be able to easily recoup $30 on a resale when/if we get a better version.
Hey as long as you know what your buying and the lag issues, after that point the choice is yours :-) I just wanted to warn players that it is likely a more responsive port could be released in the near future
I think a part of us all want to hope that city connection would continue to do these ports only if they figured out the input lag problems, but no they just press onward. I think part of it is sunken cost where they probably spent a bunch of dev time and money on this zebra engine, even though it sucks, so they feel the need to keep using it.
Ha yeah I really wish if they had to do the saturn version, that they did a more old school style of actually porting the code rather than just running it through a laggy emulator
The port is actually really good considering it’s a Saturn port. I’m wondering, if this review didn’t influence your decision, you would actually notice the small amount of input latency? I guess you’ll never know now 🤷🏻♂️
@Arron Etchells yah I've purchased a couple laggy shmups on switch in the past and it kind of feels like swimming thru honey when moving the ship around. Whereas some less laggy switch shmups such as mushihimesama or crimzon clover feels a lot smoother when controlling. At least that's my personal experience. I don't notice around 4 frames, but once it gets to like 5 plus is when it kind of feels like your ship is weighted
@@taishou94 Ah, that's more of a dilemma. The argument for pre-ordering a physical copy is stronger, but with the standards of game quality dropping nowadays, I think it would be more prudent to wait for reviews before buying. Especially with an inconsistent studio like City Connection behind the wheel.
Yeah I always keep a close eye on city connection ports. The only ports I would feel safe to preorder (at this point) are shot triggers, just because they haven't had a bad release performance and features wise
It's not so bad, at least you didn't sell your rare copy of Cotton 2 and preorder Cotton Saturn tribute ...Like I did ...For a port with 11 frames of lag
I think the packaging city connection does lures in a lot of people. It's like the inverse of bitwave ha. Bitwave are solid technical ports with ugly packaging, and city connection are sluggish poor performing ports with attractive packaging. M2 shottriggers is best of both :-)
Curious how much lag the PS4 version has, but if steam version is bad, pretty sure this one will be too. Anyway, I am waiting for the inevitable western physical release to buy a PS4 copy. Not worth importing.
It’s not that bad unless you are playing the PCB on a CRT which is still 2 frames of latency. This is a really good port considering it’s from the Saturn Version. Expect 5 frames on PS4 but to me, it feels damn good.
@@arronetchells4363 I am getting it anyway, I'm a casual shmup fan, not going for scores or anything, at maxim will go for Platinums. Just waiting for a western release. Almost all City games get releases in US/EU, unlike M2 games, sadly.
I really liked how you balanced the voice, camera, and gameplay footage and kept them swapping constantly. It really helps the momentum. Your production values are clearly getting better and I wanted you to know we noticed. Well done.
@@TheElectricUnderground This is where I prefer Boomer Shooters and modern shmups than retro games. 120+ fps is so much better than 60fps, for me returning to 60 is something I don't want to revisit too often.
Actually, I’m gonna give ya some advice, if your using any kind of wired controller setup, don’t, it artificially adds input lag vs using a wireless controller. And also best to use a bog standard wireless Pro Controller for input lag tests as well for Switch ports (as that way, that would eliminate any artificial input lag from wired setups)
I did a whole video about this, that extra frame of lag is unavoidable. If you use a wireless pad you cut out the dock lag, but then you have the lag of the switch screen (which is laggy). If you go the wired dock route onto a crt, then you have the additional dock lag, but remove the screen lag. So no matter how you slice it, it will come out to the same level of lag, which is an additional frame over ps4 typically.
@@TheElectricUnderground All it amounts to is take away the Paradox frame and you get the real numbers from the port itself (also Saturn has and always will be notoriously difficult to emulate whether you like it or not)
The input lag was so high that my lag life turned off and then back on before the game responded, which I have never seen happen before. I cannot believe they released the port with such high lag, I feel like that's some class action lawsuit type material (if anyone cared).
Oh jeez thanks for the heads up! I wonder if that's across the board an issue? I actually didn't look into the high scoreboards because to me without replays attached it feels kind of pointless. (another excellent thing that m2 does).
Stage saves, rewind on Shumps just ruin Shumps, even infinite continues. The reason is that most Shumps are short to very short games, so having all these options will make you complete the game in 15-20mins. The problem with many Shumps is that they are far too short. The first 3 stages are usually far too easy and the amount of fun wears off once you realise it's too easy even on the hardest level - which sadly many actually are. By the way this is now on XB and plays fine.
What Shmups are you playing that are only 15-20 minutes total? A lot of them go longer than that. Also there’s also the self imposed 1CC, where you can limit yourself to just 1 credit to clear the game or go back to start. As an extra aside, you can also just not use the features given to you and play pure vanilla as well
oh my... I will be harsh (sorry...) : why on earth do you want to play shmups on switch ? It's convenient ? Yeah, I got it ....but that's about it ! Let's burn the switch.. and I REALLY hope the switch 2 will be more powerful (1.5 X a normal nvidia shield ? I'm joking ...)... What' a disaster.... 😞
I review the switch versions because they are the most popular versions of these types of ports and they are the version most likely to have issues. So I am looking at the full scope of the port release. Because if you want to play batsugun properly it s almost certainly going to via the og console or emulation. So for stuff like this I am assessing how much damage is being done to the average consumer. And then usually the PS4 version is in the same ballpark as the switch, but a frame faster
Shmup fans care about input lag. I don't understand how people financing a professional team to port a 30 year old game to modern consoles allow 6+ frames of input lag. It's super weird to me.
I think what it is, is that they knew the port would be laggy to start with because they are emulating the Saturn. But city connection sort of just let it rock as they don't have much competition these days. Just look at the comments here, a lot of people will say oh well it s the only shop in town so we have to accept the lag. This attitude is across a lot of areas of gaming though, we are well trained ha
I totally agree with U, there is a big lag in this game which is a BIG TURN OFF! So its a waste of time & money! Don't buy this game. Same like Raiden Legacy, its a shame that they make these kind of games and then we have to pay for them 🤦♂
Yep it s going to continue happening with these Saturn ports, unless they have some amazing Saturn emulation breakthrough, which seems unlikely as even stuff like mednafen is still laggy
I really appreciate a critical review. Too many reviewers have become advertisers for publishers.
Exactly and part of that is because not only are reviewers pressured to be lenient by publishers or they don't get review codes (I rarely get them), but also by fans of the games who don't want to be let down by a release and so are eager to have a reviewer be more lenient. As a reviewer you end up in this nasty pincer a lot of times.
Bought it. Played it. Enjoyed it. Not trying to make a career out of scoring on this or any stg. Just having fun. As always thanks for the in depth and thoughtful analysis Mark. Keep on keeping on!
My goal is to help inform the players on the performance and features of the ports they buy, so as long as you know what s going on with the port it s all good whatever the players do after that point :-)
"Filth eater here. Bought it. Ate it. Enjoyed it. Not trying for 3 star cuisine, just looking for a good meal. Thanks for your review!"
At this point, I think we need a time travel technology, to fix Sega Saturn emulation input lag. There is so much good stuff that stucked on old consoles and arcades, it' ridiculous. Especially when you consider, that companies, who made original hardware, don't give a f**k.
Yep the hardware of the Saturn has really held back it s awesome library of games for a long time
Hopefully the Saturn fpga core for the MiSTer will turn out great eventually.
Runs fine on my PC Saturn or Arcade versions. Test my Lag using Saturnas without run ahead and I get 4 frames between button press and reaction on screen with on a rare occasion only 3. Almost always 4. Seems fine to me.
ShmupArch does have a lag decreasing feature called "runahead" which is kinda like time travel.
Really showing off your acting skills with this video, I dig it
Ha I wanted to include some kind of visual acting for the pizza story at the start, and then decided to use it here and there in the vid since I already had to script out a lot of it off cam
Always a fantastic, in-depth review!
Also, fwiw G-Darius HD also has the "instant save state slots" feature. Its super useful. M2 to the rescue.
Im gonna hold out until M2 ports this bad boy.... Lol
yes that is my approach as well! We need more than 1 save state slot, if any devs are listening ha.
So around 2029 then?
@@robertrada4783 what do they have left to port at this point? Truxton 1+2, Dogyuun, VV and Batsugun are it, no? So I'd say 2 years maybe 3.
Pizza sounds good tonight
Yeah it does ha! This vid brought to you by pappa toms lol
Sounds good every night 🍕
Well, as soon as I heard it was a City Connection port from Saturn I think I knew it was going to be laggy so I didn't purchase, thank you for your review and for confirming!
Just bought it on Switch and really have some fun. The new soundtrack is awesome. Great game :)
This is your funniest intro ! Bro your a really
Funny dude and one of the best real
Reviewers out there. I have purchased 20 games this month because of your Shmups alone in December .
You’re doing the lord work Mark!
I’m really glad that a RUclips channel like yours exists
He’s doing his own work for his own interests.
The port is good and not as bad as he’s making out.
Maybe check it yourself and make your own mind up ?
0_o
Thank you failure! Also bonus points for the ATP reference ha (or MK reference)
Good video, though some things about it, they certainly went with the Saturn version because of two reasons 1) the Zebra engine which they have already invested a lot in it, 2) They don’t want only to port Batsugun but a Saturn game, that in my opinion, it’s something to be grateful that a company has decided to take the challenge of porting Saturn games to new platforms, something that I believe not many companies would be willing to do for a lot of reason, so I got my physical copy of Batsugun, because I hope they can keep releasing more Saturn games. Anyway, your technical review is spot on, it all makes sense, but I think when it comes to port of old Saturn games, we should consider other factors too. Thanks for the video!
Oh yeah the Saturn game port question is an interesting one because there are some Saturn games, like silvergun, which are essentially made for the system. However in the case of batsugun, it is a port of a port, a double decker. Because the Saturn version is just trying to copy the arcade version anyway. It s like trying to port the Saturn version of dodonpachi essentially. Why do that instead of going right to that source?
@@TheElectricUnderground Because they are specifically targeting Saturn games, technically for Batsugun might make little sense, but otherwise they couldn’t 1) Use Zebra and 2) label it like a “Saturn Tribute” game if they use the arcade game.
City Connection probably also doesn't have rights to the arcade version, because Bitwave will likely be doing that on PC, and M2 on console. The Saturn emulation route is *probably* the only avenue they had available to them. I've said before that I'm not that sensitive to input delay, but 6 frames is definitely in the margin where I would feel it. It's unfortunate that they haven't figured out how to make Saturn emulation snappier, but I guess that's where we're at. I'm still tempted to buy the JP physical release to get the CD soundtracks that have both the original and arrange, because I'm a nerd and love that stuff. I haven't decided yet, however. Maybe if I find a good deal on it, I can justify the cost XD
If you have a PS4/5 get it. It's great and very responsive. There's a lot of irrationality about City Connection's Saturn Tribute series, but Layer Section's demo was great and this is also.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Bitwave confirmed Batsugun coming later (amonst others).
I think you are right about this guru, but I feel like in that case they shouldn't have done the port at all. Because they are making a product that they know will be heavily compromised performance wise, and are going to take players money for it anyway. They should have said no let's work on a different port or gone in and done a true port rather than slapped together emulation. There are ways to do this port properly, so I m not one to say oh well close enough ha.
You're probably right about the rights situation Guru. Rights are always peculiar and particular
Given they released a new version of Batsugun in arcades via the Exa System, I wouldn’t expect a home port of the arcade originals AT ALL, not anytime in the next 5 years.
Hmmm I don't think the exa version will necessarily prevent more home ports, as it is an arcade release rather than a home port. Also shmups ports are overlapping a lot more, like right now we have two different PC ports of deathsmiles ha
@@TheElectricUnderground I believe they worked out some exclusivity in order to publish games in the platform, hence no Aka to Blue port yet. Though there has been some overlap with other titles so perhaps there’s hope.
@@JBuenoMDthats my impression aswell. Sdoj 4 example got its ladt homeport before exa showed up.
And didnt they go ballistic vs mame in some way?
The PS4 version is on its way to me. For $40 I took a shot that it’s decent. Can probably still beat it at 5 or 6 frames of lag. I already own the Saturn disc and I hear it’s being worked on for MiSTer, which is great news.
It's 5 on PS4 and it's perfectly fine.
It’s a great port and the lag isn’t noticeable for me….and I’m a Toaplan nerd. Hope you enjoy it buddy 👍
yeah the ps4 version is likely less laggy by a frame. That tends to be the general trend for sure. But it could also be 6 frames as well, who knows. Of course city connection would never send me any review codes to check without having to pay a pile of money to get all the different versions to look at.
everybody who buys their shit is responsible for supporting a bad product and you just encourage them to go on like this.
@@reinhart.sieger it’s not a bad product. I’ve gotten almost the same score on this as I did on the Saturn version. I would love 1 or 2 less frames of lag, but it’s playable. An extra frame on the Switch as opposed to PS4 would really put it on the edge though.
On a side note, has anybody heard any news if M2's upcoming DoDoDonPachi DaiOuJou port is coming to the Switch? Their announcement only mentioned PS4.
I hoping it will be on switch, I think it might be, there is hope ha
City connection probanly did not made the arcade port probably because bitwave has the rights. Bitwave is the closest to m2 without the fancy stuff. Bitwave started bad, but now those ports of toaplan have been patched and when it comes to game essentials they are in the top of the game. Waiting for them to port batsugun
So I think there is some crazy bidding wars going on with these ports, because do bitwave have the console rights? They are PC only right? So we might see bitwave on steam and m2 on PS4 and switch ha
@@TheElectricUnderground yeap they can ONLY port to PC the arcade versions. For me they have a Better quality/price relation than m2
I wonder if a similar arrangement between M2 and Bitwave can be done for CAVE's IP. Maybe if Bitwave gets enough of a reputation from their Toaplan ports, they'll be able to do CAVE PC ports too!
Been playing it since release. Feels fine on PS5. Supposedly avg 4-5 (4.91) frames. My problem is with Trophies not dropping. I'm 2 off the Platinum and can't get the one for shooting the plane (I get the point bonus, but not the Trophy) and the one for scoring 1,000,000 from pigs.
I would bet 5 frames, 4 seems really unlikely. The question I really want to pose with this review though is that when m2 or bitwave release their ports, will this port be viable at all (I would say no)
@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah the avg is close to 5. Honestly, it feels great to me.
If M2 get around to Batsugun in 2028, I'll get it and prob focus on the other game it's paired with. Until then I've got this. M2 take forever. The next Toaplan is July and DOJ is likely Oct/Nov with another Toaplan some time early 2024. The problem in all of this is Tatsujin the owners trying to max out every opportunity. Don't forget these things are on Evercade too.
For anyone having the same problems. Make sure your hitbox is set to default. You have to play 100% default for these particular Trophies. I just got the Platinum.
One step forward, two frames back.
Lol!!!
I bought it on Steam and Im enjoying it.The lag isnt amazing but i dont have the competence to use emulation and I also know that M2 will release their port sometime before Amageddon apparently. It's not the most responsive but then again neither am I !!In all seriousness it meets my average player needs i.e to be able to experience and enjoy Batsugun , especiaaly until M2s boutique edition arrives, but thats me and i totally see how it may be an issue for others, especially elite players.
The thing about input lag that I want to do a vid on is that it's not just a matter of it effecting high tier players (though it does) but it greatly impacts the feel of the game for all players. Like when you buy a taco from taco bell, and they put that cheap meat filler in. If you don't think about it then whatever right, but if you ve tasted pure beef, then you immediately notice the difference in taste
@The Electric Underground yeah input lag does affect all players to some degree.I noticed this when I started turning v-sync off on my PC.It was a revelation.But, at the same time I can live with some releases like this one as a casual experience, which enables non- tech savvy emulation peeps like myself to access games like Batsugun fairly cheaply.
M2 is of course on another tier.I was playing Rayz today and it's just awesome, but I'm glad at the availability of the CC release on modern consoles and the lag can be worked around for casual play, which IMHO is whom this release is targeted at primarily.
@@then1533vsync is a perfect example! I, cant stand screen tearing so im always forcing vsync on pc (since decades, when it was way laggier than today).
Id rather take some lag in most cases.
So 4-6 frames aka around 100ms is fine with me on a casual level..
Can often times barely notice the difference to be honest (compared some ports to my mister on crt).
Maybe im just too old though 😅 (40)
Haha it was so cheap on Play-Asia I almost had a brain fart and ordered it. Then by luck noticed somebody elsewhere pipe up about City Connection lag and general bad port weirdness. Knew I dodged a bullet. Which I couldn’t have done if I bought it (badum pshhhhh)
Lol dodging bullets in game and irl :-D yes especially because I bet we will see another proper port of batsugun soon
I love all of these port collections like Batsugun Tribute and Psikyo Shooting Library but yeah I understand there are certainly some problems. Great video.
ayo but it was your month, Queen. why weren't you so happy and Proud? ya'll supposed to be exuding your joy during your month.
input lag just ruins all the fun
If you are a fan of the game, don't be afraid to get this version, after all, after this new generation was launched especially by Microsoft, we haven't had many Shmup titles of this caliber available lately. City Connection may not be the best company for such a task, but its bravery in trying to bring the titles we love to the light of the new generation has created good results and it is in this vibe that we hope that other important titles like Dodonpachi also manage to come out of the cave and be bathed in the light of current consoles, just as they were brilliantly promoted by Rising Star, M2 and other companies in the field of emulation for last generation consoles.
I bought it and was pleasantly surprised. Love the boosted soundtrack and I don’t think the lag is that bad on the PS4. Nearly did a 1CC with my arcade RAP4 8 way stick. Yeah, I really like it.
At least there's still hope, for example cityconnection ported over the console version of Rayforce, but M2 did the arcade versions, so there is hope that the same will happen, or someone else at least.
I think that is actually very likely so I'm optimistic we will get a solid batsugun port in the near future :-)
For a split second in the intro i thought you were talking about the saturn port and was like wtf i trusted you lol
I think the game plays great, all things considered. Great new soundtrack that absolutely rips and some nice setting features like the hit box one mentioned.
Its a hat-on-a-hat but we all know why, and considering that i still think its neat we have a modern, accessible version of the saturn port of Batsugun. Lag be damned, i think the 5-6 frames is on par for what it is, a consumer level offering. I say this with respect and as a fan of the channel I just think CC deserve a little more credit on this one. If you are able to try the game for yourself please do so before writing it off completely. Steam has a generous return policy otherwise.
Maybe I dreamt it but I could’ve sworn I read M2 were doing a port of Batsugun (if that’s even possible with City Connection doing this port), or maybe I’m just getting some wires crossed as they’re doing a lot of Toaplan projects.
M2 will port the arcade version so expect 3-4 frames on that. This is 5-6 on PS4 and switch respectively as it’s a Saturn port and for my money, a great version. I’d recommend it 100%
@@arronetchells4363 I'm actually lucky enough to own the Saturn version but I'd really like this nice HD version, and for the nice new music. The lag is a bit concerning though. If an M2 port is definitely coming, I'll hold off and wait. If there is no M2 port in the pipeline I'll probably take the plunge and get this.
@@beingsupersonic7499 thanks for the reply buddy!
If you own the Saturn version and an OSSC then stay as you are as you can upscale the Saturn port with the OSSC to a great near HD image.
If not then this version is solid but if you are very sensitive to lag, wait for the M2 port which will come at some point, hopefully sooner rather than later 🙏
yep i think they are going to! I don't know that for sure, but I think it is highly likely that they are going to port over the arcade versions of games and will blow this port out of the sky. Then everyone who bought this version will have a $30-40 shelf filler
@@arronetchells4363 I was actually gonna treat myself to an OSSC Christmas just gone, but they were out of stock, and actually not getting a restock until Q3 OR Q4 of this year😭 so will most likely get one then🤟
My bet is that they only own the rights to these Saturn ports. Metal Black also received this S-Tribute, but surprise surprise the arcade version released simultaneously through the HAMSTER Archives collection... and cheaper! so they actually had to lower the initial price they were asking because it made no sense whatsoever. I think you're spot on with the fact that it will most likely be ported again by either M2 or Bitwave, in fact EXA is already releasing their own improved arcade version so...
Yeah I think this is absolutely the case. And so I wish that instead of City Connection just running the game through a laggy emulator, they did a more old school style of port where they moved the code over and everything. That way we wouldn't have that double decker lag sandwich.
Fuck exa. If they ate involved in something, we wont see any version of it on console/pc in the near future.
Port plays perfectly fine on Switch/PS4. Been playing the whole week.
6 frames is just too much for me to recommend, especially because just over the horizon it is very likely we will see another port based on the arcade version. So be prepared to buy the game again ha
@@TheElectricUnderground hello , this arcade version will come on switch ?
You forgot the mister mark, the Saturn core is coming in hot. I think batsugun is already playable on the test core.
Ohh hell yes, I am so excited to try that out
I appreciate these reviews. My first question whenever I hear a new arcade game or shmup port announced for switch is, "what are the input lag numbers." Especially with these saturn ports, I always try to find that info and I usually can't. The info isn't out there. Maybe you feel like it's beating a dead horse to mention input lag again with regard to Shitty Connection, but I don't. The more available this information is, the more people will start to understand what input lag even is, why it matters for arcade games and why consumers should expect a certain standard of emulation in these commercial products we pay money for.
Yes the input lag is such an important metric because it is critical to how the game plays and is really baked into the ports typically. So it s one issue that is almost never patched as to do that would involve just redoing the whole port.
Interesting about the 3 built in frames of lag on Saturn. I noticed when working on Strikers for Saturn through an emulator that the final stage took me around 6 hours to beat. Tried the game on PS1 emulator and beat it within 30 minutes. I had to really memorize all my positions rather than react on the Saturn version. Waiting for the Mister FPGA to support Saturn properly before playing anymore shooters on Saturn emulation.
Yep PS1 emulation is miles ahead of Saturn emulation. The Saturn is just so weird and it is likely that the PS1 even has more responsive hardware than the Saturn. Would be interesting to check
@@TheElectricUnderground It was good to see confirmation on the laggy saturn emulation, as I could really feel it when I tried the game on PS1 emulator. Didnt know about base saturn being laggy to begin with, Im sure that doesnt help. If Mister FPGA ever properly supports saturn Ill let you know if I notice a difference. Waiting for full support.
I have a blast playing this on handheld mode, special ver + new ost, feels like a new game, didn't feel to me like a laggy game at least on portable mode and I have to say special ver is so much fun than pcb version, I think is great that they ported the saturn one, as always great vid
It is laggy I m afraid, my tests are just as fast as what you get in handheld mode. If you have mushi in the switch just fire it up and you will immediately feel the input lag difference
u are right mushi feels like wired to my head, so responsive but dont know maybe I'm use to play some laggy shit and im okay with 6 frames? cause batsu feels great I reach 8 loop on special ver on the first play, im using split pad pro dont know if it is a difference with the original joycons in terms of lag, un saludo amigo
@@TheElectricUndergroundSo both TV mode and handheld mode have the exact same amount of lag?
6 frames is still just 1/10th of a second. Most people dont even notice it..
Your opening monologue brought to mind when bill murray dropped his pizza at the beginning of Stripes. (No one will probably know what im talking about but just act like you do. I need me a win.) 😔
I am thrilled these ports are coming to the Switch and PS4. These games are inaccessible to most people and most don’t want to mess with emulation. Most people don’t care if it’s 4 or 6 frames of lag. Of course no lag would be better. I’m just happy these games are coming back. These games have a cult following, but they won’t sell well. Your asking a company to put in double the effort for no money. Your probably hoping these companies will do better jobs at porting, but I’m worried your complaining will cause them to stop porting great shmups from the past. Anyway, just my opinion.
And a great opinion it is. This is a great port and I’m sure the eventual port by M2 as part of the Toaplan Arcade Garage will be better but until then, the more people who have access to such a quality shmup the better.
What a perfect review. Great analogy. So funny and true. People shove badly emulated/ported retro games aside as: "not as fun as I remember". That annoys the F out of me, because I love retro games. But those poor souls do not realize why they are not enjoying them as much. I think all games should have an optional lag counter and also an optional framerate counter for all to see exactly how good or bad a game (port) is done.
I literally have no questions. You addressed everything and more! Thanks for saving us the effort, money and suffering.
I just of thought of you in that goofy heavy metal wig again and laughed
I really enjoyed the Saturn port, great music and low difficulty on early levels. Those level up sound effects are insane! I consider Batsugun to be DonPachi Zero.
Yes critics need to stop treating ports and the source material as 1 to 1, especially in shmups. Because you can have a fantastic game and then have it ruined by the porting process
I've learned my lesson dealing with input delay on fighting games, so I rather wait for the M2 version of this than waste my money.
Do you use a CRT VGA for your measurements?
I noticed a CRT VGA using Amazon power-free converters saves a frame vs the PS3DTV.
Also isn't City Connection a game frim Jaleco? Is this developer related to Jaleco?
Yes I do! I use an old school VGA crt with a fast HDMI to VGA DAC. It s the fastest way to display a switch that I have found. The other way that s about as responsive though slightly laggier is handheld mode
I was a tiny bit hopeful that they finally got their shit together, considering Elevator Action Returns S-Tribute turned out okay.
On the bright side, there's a rumor that a Batsugun core is being worked on for the Mister FPGA.
I feel bad for going there but... I just went there.
don't beat yourself up, Mister is the way, this isn't 'just get a raspberry pi'
Oh hell yes!! I m really excited to see toaplan on mister!
The PS4 (and Pro) automatically record your PS4 playing for I think up to 90 minutes, and while it is 720p, it's only at 30fps and there's no setting to change it to 60fps. So any replay clip you save to your PS4 console and try to upload to Twitch or RUclips will be 720p but only at 30fps. I dunno if PS5 allows for better replay save clips though.
Yeah, and with RUclips's encoding and bitrate shenanigans, 720p looks AWFUL. Even 1080p looks really muddy nowadays, so the lower resolutions will be even worse off. And this is before factoring in danmaku or millions of star items that destroy the bitrate even more.
I looked up the PS5's recording functionality out of curiosity before, and Sony upgraded it to 1080p60 and 4K60, so it should be pretty solid! But the PS5 is also super pricy. It might be better to get a capture card instead to record the PS4's display output directly.
@@lunaria_stg Glad to hear that the PS5 records properly, you're right about the PS4 (and PS4 Pro) being 720p but being an extremely compressed and blurry 720p. I usually just livestream anything I want to record off of my PS4 on youtube via my wifi, it's heavily compressed because of youtube sucking but it's 720p 60fps and good enough for what i'm wanting to do.
Yeah I know it's a bummer that the ps4 pro can't do 60fps. It's not ideal for sure, but it's still serviceable if you were merely trying to show your gameplay to your fellow players. As a video maker though, yeah still hugely lacking.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I was looking forward to this game and City Connection has let me down again. I was looking forward to the Cotton tribute games and they let me down then, and they are letting me down again now with Batsugun. I should look into finding out if the team at City Connection can be pallbearers at my funeral so after I die, they can let me down one last time.
yeah I think the city connection team can make some decent ports, if they have really really generous source material to copy off of (like the xbox 360 port of deathsmiles). But if they are tasked with a more ground up style port, that would be required for something like this, I would not pre order from them. Def wait and see because they seem to always go with the plug and play option for emulation and aren't too fussed with how much lag that may cause.
I think the use of the Saturn versions is really more about development costs, and having a fully-baked front end ready-to-go. If they did a new emulation they'd have to hire UI artists and FE Engineers to create all the menus, title screens, continue/game over flows required to create a console experience. With the Saturn versions, they get all that for free, quality be damned.
It’s because M2 will be porting the arcade version so CC had to do the Saturn version.
Saying that, this is actually a great port and not as bad as he’s making out.
I’d recommend checking it out for yourself 👍
That is absolutely true! But in my case I am one to say that if a port can't be done properly, especially with lag, then it should not be done at all, because now city connection is knowingly taking people s money for a flawed release that they can't hope to improve anytime soon
@@TheElectricUnderground It already has lag as it’s a Saturn port hence the ‘S Tribute’ label on the box.
2x16.67ms is all that differentiates it from that port which, in relative terms, isn’t a massive amount.
It’s within enjoyable levels just not as elite as the 2-3 frames the PCB offers.
Let’s not forget, this is a modern HD version which, on modern displays, will never be as accurate as the original played on a CRT.
This is the next best thing until the M2 port arrives.
@@arronetchells4363 2 frames of lag is pretty hefty on top of the expected 3. And it seems closer to actually 3 frames extra lag. I think lag is on an exponential curve of significance and so 5-6 frames may as well be unplayable in the same sense rain boots are for jogging. But also this is made worse considering LCD’s add another 1-2 frames, and even the arcade stick might add another 1 frame. So we’re in, effectively, 8-9 frame lag territory which is actually insane.
Love Batsugun, it's the first shmup I 1 CC'd. I think it's one of the best entrypoints to the genre.
That analogy is really scary, I just had pizza yesterday lol
I know right, it does make you wonder what could happen to your pizza during the delivery process... I don't do delivery anymore personally lol
Citi connection doing us dirty
Yep they have that zebra engine and by damn they will keep using it, ugh
I imagined my favorite pizza from my favorite pizza shop, but with this city connection version I feel like I just got Gino’s/Totino’s store bought pizza.
Hello, I’ve come from the future to tell you that Batsugun is being ported by Bitwave, how quality of the port is still being determined, but after the Bitwave’s other collections things might be looking up for Batsugun to receive its best home version.
They won't release on console tho
This is not the greatest game in the world. It is just a tribute.
Ooh the ‘Tenacity’ 🤣🤣
XD, that got me 😆
The famous Mister Inputlag in person ! 😂
As soon as I saw the words "Saturn Tribute" I instantly had Cotton ptsd lol
Noooo, it’s no where near that bad. Death smiles was a quality port and this is on that level. Solid and very very playable 👍
@@arronetchells4363 Thanks, that's a relief to hear!
Me as well ha. It s just a very bad idea at this stage because they are emulating the Saturn versions, and emulation of Saturn is laggy laggy laggy. It would be better if they ported it properly without emulation, but that would be a ton of work on their part (so of course they won't)
@@TheElectricUnderground If only we could just get M2 to do everything lol; I've never had any lag issues w/ Shot Triggers releases yet
I can watch this man review anything
AFAIK, City Connection owns the license to several Saturn ports, which is why they're rushing out these laggy Saturn ports.
I think things may have improved lag wise. It feels way better now
That analogy lmaooo
Also congrats on teaching your clone to physically narrate the whole video on your behalf
If this is the new style, just make sure you keep the voiceover. You never go full mime. (I think just regular on-camera talking is fine though).
Jeez this is making me wanna play Batsugun on my Saturn. Gonna fire it up tomorrow. Save up and buy a Saturn if you can afford one, so many great games.
Question: Did they port this to the PC out of panic from losing relevance or something?
As I said earlier, these legendary shmups came to the PC way too late programming-wise and market-wise. The former because they don't seem to have experience with PC hardware, the latter because I'm not sure it would attract new fans.
Also, how much input lag did Touhou have with the keyboard?
I think the PC ports are a specialty of city connection unlike m2. But bitwave are now doing PC ports of toaplan too, so we could see competing PC ports like we have with deathsmiles ha. Also I haven't lag tested touhou but I understand with vsync patches it s very very responsive
sucks because no one will port this for another 10 years for the next gen consoles. Im happy with my saturn version and the fbneo rom for save states
Yeah playing it on fba or mame is fantastic. But I think we could see another port of the arcade version soon.
I can't find this game on Switch or PS4, in their respective online stores at the moment? 🤔
Oh I think it might still be a japanese only release?
bruhhhhh nooooooooo 😢
@@bubbles934 This is my only problem with some Shmups at the moment, I mean if they don't do a physical I can understand due to them being a bit niche. But come on man, why should I have to get an import download 🤦it's way too much trouble to have to go to.
@@TheElectricUnderground Mark, love your video's they're very in depth and trustworthy 👍
Bro it's out now on the European e shop and PSN! 😃
why M2 does not do it instead of City Connection?
I think they will actually! I think they are going to do the port of the arcade version. Thing is because m2 are such quality releases, they take longer to come out, whereas city connection can just plug this into their laggy zebra engine and call it good.
@@TheElectricUnderground man I love Batsugun.but I have to pass this version
I can’t figure out how to use the stage select without also getting revenge bullets. It’s like no matter what setting you adjust, it will always act like you’re on at least the 2nd loop
Yeah the stage select is janky, I don't think it even does stage by stage
I don't think you can actually select the stage, only which loop and how powered up you want to be. It's confusing because it uses the word LEVEL, but that applies to shot power.
DUDE that thumbnail!
Boghog is a legend :-)
This would be a definite pass at $60 or $70. However, until I have a better port in hand -- I'm comfortable taking the risk on this port. It's going to be a niche release physically and I should be able to easily recoup $30 on a resale when/if we get a better version.
My thoughts exactly
This is a great version so don’t worry. Well worth the low asking price in my opinion 👍
Hey as long as you know what your buying and the lag issues, after that point the choice is yours :-) I just wanted to warn players that it is likely a more responsive port could be released in the near future
Fuck. I knew it. Why did I think it would be different with this port.
I think a part of us all want to hope that city connection would continue to do these ports only if they figured out the input lag problems, but no they just press onward. I think part of it is sunken cost where they probably spent a bunch of dev time and money on this zebra engine, even though it sucks, so they feel the need to keep using it.
If only City Connection would put as much effort into their ports as Mark puts into his reviews.
Ha yeah I really wish if they had to do the saturn version, that they did a more old school style of actually porting the code rather than just running it through a laggy emulator
Thanks for the review! I knew to wait this time 😅 not trying to get burnt on another laggy switch release
Yeah especially since it is incredibly likely we will see a proper port of the arcade version soon
The port is actually really good considering it’s a Saturn port.
I’m wondering, if this review didn’t influence your decision, you would actually notice the small amount of input latency?
I guess you’ll never know now 🤷🏻♂️
@Arron Etchells yah I've purchased a couple laggy shmups on switch in the past and it kind of feels like swimming thru honey when moving the ship around. Whereas some less laggy switch shmups such as mushihimesama or crimzon clover feels a lot smoother when controlling. At least that's my personal experience. I don't notice around 4 frames, but once it gets to like 5 plus is when it kind of feels like your ship is weighted
Or it could be that EXA Arcadia might have exclusive rights to the arcade version, which is why we got a saturn port instead
Batsugun deserved an M2 Shotriggers release but I guess we get this crap instead. Oh well.
I think we could get one though! Slowly but surely they are releasing a bunch of toaplan stuff
Im so pissed rn. I keep pre ordering these and keep ending up with duds. Ty for your reviews
If you're buying digital, never pre-order.
@@taishou94 Ah, that's more of a dilemma.
The argument for pre-ordering a physical copy is stronger, but with the standards of game quality dropping nowadays, I think it would be more prudent to wait for reviews before buying. Especially with an inconsistent studio like City Connection behind the wheel.
Don’t be pissed. It’s far better than he’s making out.
Yeah I always keep a close eye on city connection ports. The only ports I would feel safe to preorder (at this point) are shot triggers, just because they haven't had a bad release performance and features wise
It's not so bad, at least you didn't sell your rare copy of Cotton 2 and preorder Cotton Saturn tribute
...Like I did
...For a port with 11 frames of lag
Did anyone really think this was going to be any better than it turned out?
I think the packaging city connection does lures in a lot of people. It's like the inverse of bitwave ha. Bitwave are solid technical ports with ugly packaging, and city connection are sluggish poor performing ports with attractive packaging. M2 shottriggers is best of both :-)
Curious how much lag the PS4 version has, but if steam version is bad, pretty sure this one will be too.
Anyway, I am waiting for the inevitable western physical release to buy a PS4 copy. Not worth importing.
It’s not that bad unless you are playing the PCB on a CRT which is still 2 frames of latency. This is a really good port considering it’s from the Saturn Version. Expect 5 frames on PS4 but to me, it feels damn good.
Yes I m fairly confident the PS4 version will be 5 or 6 frames as well, just because the lag is baked really deep into the emulation
@@arronetchells4363 I am getting it anyway, I'm a casual shmup fan, not going for scores or anything, at maxim will go for Platinums.
Just waiting for a western release. Almost all City games get releases in US/EU, unlike M2 games, sadly.
That intro 😅
Glad you enjoyed ha! I wanted an analogy for the role of the port developer
@@TheElectricUnderground It's a really good analogy!
So with my setup, gaming monitor and Hori’s usb arcade stick, it’s probably another two frames.
It’s actually 4-6 on switch using a decent monitor so really good considering the Saturn version already had 3-5 frames. I’d recommend it👍
Yes very very likely, because I am running this through a crt and with a really responsive arcade stick
I make my own pizza for this exact reason
Hell yeah!!! Based because I take my pizza dead serious too
I really liked how you balanced the voice, camera, and gameplay footage and kept them swapping constantly. It really helps the momentum. Your production values are clearly getting better and I wanted you to know we noticed. Well done.
the disappointment on Mark's face on the cover.....
Ha I am trying to mimic the expression of Aragon from the LOTR DVD, and he has one of those stern expressions ha
Epic thumbnail!
i ll be ok with my saturn copy and the astro city mini v emulation, thanks xD
yeah if you have the saturn copy, def no need to spend the extra money for this port with all its lag issues.
I'm working at pizza hut while watching this!😂😂
That is awesome ha!! Love the pizza hut thin crust options by the way :-)
Will you buy the new ASIUS 540hz gaming monitor? It better have a TATE able stand.
So I just replaced my entire PC part by part ha, so based on it s performance I might get a new monitor too :-)
@@TheElectricUnderground This is where I prefer Boomer Shooters and modern shmups than retro games. 120+ fps is so much better than 60fps, for me returning to 60 is something I don't want to revisit too often.
One Question: Do you take the lag from the controller into account? Thank You.
Great. I kind of just want to stamp "return to sender" on my copy when it arrives. So sick of this sh!t.
Yeah it s a huge bummer, sadly I think it was a bad idea right at the start because of how baked in the Saturn emulation lag will be
Actually, I’m gonna give ya some advice, if your using any kind of wired controller setup, don’t, it artificially adds input lag vs using a wireless controller. And also best to use a bog standard wireless Pro Controller for input lag tests as well for Switch ports (as that way, that would eliminate any artificial input lag from wired setups)
I did a whole video about this, that extra frame of lag is unavoidable. If you use a wireless pad you cut out the dock lag, but then you have the lag of the switch screen (which is laggy). If you go the wired dock route onto a crt, then you have the additional dock lag, but remove the screen lag. So no matter how you slice it, it will come out to the same level of lag, which is an additional frame over ps4 typically.
@@TheElectricUnderground All it amounts to is take away the Paradox frame and you get the real numbers from the port itself (also Saturn has and always will be notoriously difficult to emulate whether you like it or not)
Yea, a good example of a laggy shmup game on the Saturn is BLAST WIND. It's just THIS CLOSE to being unplayable.
It’s unfortunate. I was gonna buy Cotton 2 but it was laggy. Does cotton 2 run with a lot of lag on retro arch ?
11f of lag in a SHMUP. Yikes.
The input lag was so high that my lag life turned off and then back on before the game responded, which I have never seen happen before. I cannot believe they released the port with such high lag, I feel like that's some class action lawsuit type material (if anyone cared).
i cant get the online rankings to show at all no matter how long i wait 😂
Oh jeez thanks for the heads up! I wonder if that's across the board an issue? I actually didn't look into the high scoreboards because to me without replays attached it feels kind of pointless. (another excellent thing that m2 does).
Stage saves, rewind on Shumps just ruin Shumps, even infinite continues. The reason is that most Shumps are short to very short games, so having all these options will make you complete the game in 15-20mins.
The problem with many Shumps is that they are far too short. The first 3 stages are usually far too easy and the amount of fun wears off once you realise it's too easy even on the hardest level - which sadly many actually are.
By the way this is now on XB and plays fine.
What Shmups are you playing that are only 15-20 minutes total? A lot of them go longer than that. Also there’s also the self imposed 1CC, where you can limit yourself to just 1 credit to clear the game or go back to start. As an extra aside, you can also just not use the features given to you and play pure vanilla as well
oh my... I will be harsh (sorry...) : why on earth do you want to play shmups on switch ?
It's convenient ? Yeah, I got it ....but that's about it !
Let's burn the switch.. and I REALLY hope the switch 2 will be more powerful (1.5 X a normal nvidia shield ? I'm joking ...)...
What' a disaster.... 😞
I review the switch versions because they are the most popular versions of these types of ports and they are the version most likely to have issues. So I am looking at the full scope of the port release. Because if you want to play batsugun properly it s almost certainly going to via the og console or emulation. So for stuff like this I am assessing how much damage is being done to the average consumer. And then usually the PS4 version is in the same ballpark as the switch, but a frame faster
this pizza has 7 frames of input lag!
Shmup fans care about input lag. I don't understand how people financing a professional team to port a 30 year old game to modern consoles allow 6+ frames of input lag. It's super weird to me.
I think what it is, is that they knew the port would be laggy to start with because they are emulating the Saturn. But city connection sort of just let it rock as they don't have much competition these days. Just look at the comments here, a lot of people will say oh well it s the only shop in town so we have to accept the lag. This attitude is across a lot of areas of gaming though, we are well trained ha
I totally agree with U, there is a big lag in this game which is a BIG TURN OFF! So its a waste of time & money! Don't buy this game. Same like Raiden Legacy, its a shame that they make these kind of games and then we have to pay for them 🤦♂
what do you think about their akai katana port?
Another one with input lag? Damn....looks like it's not worth it
Yep it s going to continue happening with these Saturn ports, unless they have some amazing Saturn emulation breakthrough, which seems unlikely as even stuff like mednafen is still laggy
the ps4 port is still 4.75 frame of lag. so sad
Yeah it s just going to be really hard to avoid due to how baked in lag is into Saturn emulation
Nothing like an Jamma PCB.
11:29 but inflation is down month over month y'all!
Thanks for the heads up, will pass
Yeah I would as well, if I didn't need to review it ha