A deeper analysis confirms this is a very strong starting board despite the tooltip error mentioned below: ruclips.net/video/tnMPu68cv3o/видео.html Hello everyone, thanks to some thorough testing by RocketCat, it appears that the multiplication of elemental damage rolls on gear shown at 1:25 may be a tooltip error. This means that +dmg rolls on gear for cold / lightning / fire may still just be additive like everything else in this damage category [Non-Physical Dmg + Cold Dmg], instead of multiplied and then added as the tooltip suggests [Non-Physical Dmg + (Cold Dmg * Non-Physical Dmg)]. More testing may need to be done to confirm this but RocketCat's experiment was very thorough and well documented, and for now I am convinced this is indeed a tooltip error and the bonus is additive like everything else, not multiplied then added. This means this start will not be quite as crazy powerful as I imagined, but could still be a very strong start for Sorcerer. My next video will compare this start (using this newfound information) to other meta paragon board priorities to understand how they stack up. I very much appreciate the feedback from everyone on these videos - together we will learn to build the most powerful sorcerers! Link to the experiment from RocketCat: docs.google.com/document/d/1raFSYYfMYZ-ULXFsbGg5HUfm-qOHrRIYnKNpdL8HTKc/edit?pli=1
You may still be onto something if you ignored Elemental Dmg and focused on raw Non-Phsyical DMG. The main multipliers are Vunrbilaity, Crit, and attack speed, so Exploit, Destruction & Tactician are mandatory Glyphs but still leave 2-3 more Glyphs and boards to experiment with.
I really enjoy your videos, especially for their game insight and the way you make the information easy to digest. Keep up the great videos and I hope your channel explodes!
Thanks so much for sharing - really clean and clear. As a noob, I had immediately gone for the ice board which you fit after the enchanter board with a very similar path to the one you are looking to do - you got my hype to respec the board and grind some levels to progress the board 🙌
I'm so glad I watched this. The whole time I thought that board was the non physical damage that I take was reduced. So as a sorcerer I went into the fire board since I'm using firebolt enchantment and ice shards enchantment. Wow what a difference the non physical dmg board has made. I was like there's no way sorcerer is this weak. I refunded about 50 points I had and got all the good stuff in the non physical board and I put in the enchanter glyph in the non physical dmg board and man I'm doing atleast 80% flat increased dmg. Man I had no idea this is what was holding my sorcerer back. It's also my first diablo game so there's still alot to learn with all the stats and paragon. I am level 75 with sorcerer. And I appreciate the video man.
Awesome to hear thanks for the feedback :D my next vid will take a deeper look at some of the meta recommended glyphs / boards and compare the math in the damage equation
I want to thank you again for this video. I've been watching different build videos and noticed a big difference in damage on skills. I took some numbers on ice shards and blizzard. My Damage with Cold is at 502.7%.
Blizzard. 1 point, mine 34,728 and theirs 11,379. (mine with 8 points 59,038) Ice shards. 9 points, mine 10,819 and theirs 3,545. They didn't take this paragon board so I'm guessing that this is the difference.
1 does it matter if The enchantment master board comes second or could it be in any order. 2 Is it possible that you can do an updated version now of this with all the new changes.
Hey there. Well spotted on the curious interaction between Non-Physical Damage and Cold Damage in the tooltips. Having grown to not trust tooltips, I launched an investigation as to whether Non-Physical Damage was indeed double-dipping, acting as both an additive bonus and as a multiplier on +Cold Damage%. I don't think I can post links in youtube comments, but the test was conducted thusly, and is available on request if you'd like to work together on this: - On my lvl 100 Sorc I reset my Paragon and made a paragon of Lvl15 Enchanter-boosted Non-Phys on Starter and Icefall. I removed my skillpoint in Avalanche as well. - I recorded my stats and calculated my expected Damage Per Hit for my current setup with and without the Enchanter Glyph, both in the case of Tooltips being Incorrect, and Tooltips being Correct. - I calculated the EXPECTED damage increase using the Damage Formula as we know it now, taking the tooltipped "Damage with Cold" in our additive bucket. Between Enchanter being there and it being not, we expected a 15% increase if tooltips are correct, or a 12% increase increase if Non-Phys and +Cold were in fact, two separate additives. - I removed the Enchanter Glyph and fought Spiritcaller at the end of Ediru, recording all the damage numbers vs him while he's burning, vulnerable, and close. - I repeated the test WITH Enchanter Glyph and recorded numbers again. - I observed a 28.5% average damage increase, about twice the hypothesized damage increase. Conclusion: Something very weird is going on with Non-Physical Damage that is a) not fully captured by Tooltips and b) not fully captured by our current Damage Formula (which places the tooltipped "Damage with Cold" in the additive bucket). Of course, more controlled tests are required in order to say anything conclusive about this.
A solid suggestion, I was looking at it there. I think for my final build I would put it in the Frigid Fate board because that one has just enough dex to activate the bonus, and the glyph doesn't need dex to scale only for the bonus to come online, and it would improve the vuln nodes a bit. Then the other boards with more dex available for scaling could be used for exploit / destruction / control or other dex scaling ones
Really helpful guide mate! Followed it myself. Any chance you could make a guide for Rogue? Playing a ranged rogue build but wanted to optimise my paragon board, thanks!
My dude bow rogue will be my 2nd class for sure lol, probably not until a bit later in season 1 tho as I am trying to master sorc first. If the paragon boards work similarly, try to see if there is one board with a physical dmg focus, one with a crit focus, and one with a vuln focus. Then try to include them around whatever your main build board is for your spec, kinda like shown for sorc at the end of this video.
I did the whole calculation using my real numbers... and I found only one mistake... the very first multiplier (skill damage)... ice shards does 35% of your weapon damage... so it's actually 35%, it's not 135% because it's not actually a bonus of 35% as everything else in the spreadsheet... when I changed the 135% to 35% in the spreadsheet... then the numbers where the same to the ones I was seeing in-game. Nevertheless, an amazing thing you've done, really helpful, I'm loving to mess around with this spreadsheet.
Thanks for the comment homie just wanted to give you a heads up - based on the findings in my latest video and an experiment done by a member of the community, it seems there is a tooltip error and these elemental stats may just be getting added like everything else instead of multiplied then added - I ran this analysis and found that this is still a very viable strategy except that you get bigger final numbers if you build crit chance, crit damage, and vulnerability damage into your gear with this paragon path because of the way the damage equation works: ruclips.net/video/tnMPu68cv3o/видео.html
I think my final setup as frost would end up looking something like this, with the middle board being the best board for whatever element your build is so Icefall as frost: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
What about for Lightning sorcerer. I've been following your board but now I'm at the 3rd board and was wondering about ceaseless conduit. Do you have an idea?
This is my best look so far with the middle board being replaced by whatever your main build board is (so mine is Icefall as frost). This gives 3 boards and glyphs that influence different parts of the damage equation getting multiplied by eachother (Enchanter / Enchanter for non-physical, Exploit / Frigid Fate for vuln, and Searing Heat / Destruction for crit), with your main build board in the middle benefiting from all these bonuses: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
Great information here, it sounds logical that scaling base damage before crit / vuln will eventually result in bigger numbers, I will put this to the test, even tough paragon respecing cost millions and 30 min of single respecing every single point
This is my best look so far with the middle board being replaced by whatever your main build board is (so mine is Icefall as frost). This gives 3 boards and glyphs that influence different parts of the damage equation getting multiplied by eachother (Enchanter / Enchanter for non-physical, Exploit / Frigid Fate for vuln, and Searing Heat / Destruction for crit), with your main build board in the middle benefiting from all these bonuses: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
Yes you are correct this does assume that the focus is 100% on damage - as frost I built to Icefall quickly in the 3rd board so I have barrier from killing frozen enemies, frost armor, barrier after deep freeze ult (which is also a great defensive for frost since it gives me a great immune reset to regen mana and 50% CDR reduction on ice armor and frost nova), and after I use a cooldown I get a barrier from the protection passive so with my build this is all the defensive I need and can build full damage. It will certainly depend on your build for if other defensives are worth prioritizing which I may look at in a later video. Ty for the thoughtful comment.
Wait. I'm still trying to figure out the 1st board. I'm at the top, and that's it. I don't have any options to start another board. It has to be user error, but...
I like where your heads at, sadly no I checked with my bro who plays barb and even more sadly this appears to be a tooltip error, where the elemental stats are just getting added vs multiplied then added like the tooltip suggestions, shown in this experiment by a very diligent member of the community: docs.google.com/document/d/1raFSYYfMYZ-ULXFsbGg5HUfm-qOHrRIYnKNpdL8HTKc/edit?pli=1 Fortunately my latest video shows that this still holds up as a very viable strategy with just the raw 240% non-physical damage especially before endgame - main lesson learned is that building crit and vuln dmg into gear will get multiplied by the non-physical on the board & glyph because of how the dmg equation works, so if there is a way to build physical into your glyph and board as barb this same concept should apply if you build crit and vuln into your gear with it
I'm interested to know if it makes more sense to do for example 1st added board be the non phys dmg, 2nd board vulnerable damage, 3rd board crit damage
Definitely could make sense depending on your build, I would say depending on how important the stuff your main element build board is like if you really need the legendary node, if it can wait then going vuln 3rd could be the play. This is likely what my final board would look like as frost sorcerer with Icefall being my main element board in the middle: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
Thank you for all the work you have done on these video's. Is it possible to get a picture showing the path you took and the glyphs you used on the Icefall board please.
You need to dip into other damage buckets as well to increase your damage even more. I would recommend testing out 2 different builds for the third board, one that focuses on the one you showed, and the other that focuses on vulnerable damage, and see which one does more damage.
Yes I was planning to hit vuln on my 4th board and maybe 5th for crit but this is probably a good call looking at the math. My next vid will compare a couple early paragon board starts and compare the math in the damage equation
This is so insanely well thought! I like this video and your other 2s about this topic so so so much! 200 IQ and a real Genius. This is the moment where math and logical thinking gets everybody exited! Thank you a lot, i am sure this kind of thinking is also viable for melee Classes etc. So well done mate! Just awesome!
Yes I will, check out the video I just posted that I've been working on it shows some other options with a good optimal setup at the end. Glad it's helping you blast more demons thanks for watching :D
This is what a solid final setup could look like, with the 3rd board in the middle being whatever the main elemental board for your build is (so Icefall for me as frost in this example), then building toward the vulnerability nodes on frigid fate 4th and then the searing heat board for crit after that d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
The final setup for the frost build I'm running right now would likely look something like this, with the 3rd board being the best board for whatever your main build element is or whatever legendary node you are after - mine is Icefall as frost: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/ Glad to hear it helped!!
i tried this and ended up doing about 50% less damage at lvl 79. with a lvl 100 this might be better because all the other damage nodes could be selected. while leveling, it's better to use control in first glyph, and after around 300 ele damage go into vulnerability nodes, then finish off the remaining paragons with the damage to chilled and more ele damage. or it's wasting points on stats with huge diminishing returns, and a massive time requirement for more points.
Would love to see some more info on this from you @assortedshorts , your build and if you were stacking any elemental gear when you tested this, also how you measured the 50% decrease, just from feel or you have a tool to measure?
Yes sorry! It will look something like this with your 3rd board being whatever the main element board for your build is with the legendary node you need, so Icefall for frost in this example: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
@@Zikorik Did you try out the maximum nm dungeon tier capability? I am very curious to include the enchanter board glyph into my blizzard build or any sorc build
Sorry for the slow response - it's not immediately obvious at first but you can rotate the boards to optimize their setup, so most of the boards shown here are rotated a few times to fit optimally
Sorry for the slow response homie, here is an optimized final setup for the chain shatter build I posted recently that utilizes all these concepts: d4builds.gg/builds/66249625-c549-4497-bb26-9eb3b840d6d5/
My most recent video is an analysis comparing the power of different starts to the board, with the conclusions pointing toward something close to this being a solid level 100 setup, with the 3rd board in the middle being whatever is the best elemental board for your build so as frost would be Icefall: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
Yes, at level 15 with the 70 int within range it will give about 70% increase to non-physical damage, at level 21 it will give about 21% more so 91% total. I like to level my Enchanter glyph to 15 so it gets its 2nd range and then prioritize other glyphs to max out to 21 first, mainly Destruction (which recently got buffed to affect all dmg not just core skills) and Exploit because they hit different parts of the damage equation
yep non-physical includes all elements, just go for your main shock/lightning board 3rd after this enchanter board. Consider trying to rush the vulnerability nodes on Frigid Fate board shortly after that if your build gives you any vulnerability because that is a big part of the damage equation
When you say "stacked underneath it," do you mean to say that the order of the paragon boards matters for how the stats interact with one another? I know it affects the stat reqs for bonuses on rares, but didn't know there was more to the order.
Your glyph needs to be at least level 15 to get it's 2nd range and you need to scoop all the int around this node (including the bonus on the two rare nodes, 70 total) to get the max value out of it. At max rank Elementalist gives a 75% increase to the nodes within range. There is a total of +35% non-physical damage on the nodes within range. 75% of 35% is 26.25%, so that would give you a total of 61.25% non-physical damage vs Enchanter glyph fully ranked which would give 6.5% non-physical per 5 int, so with 70 int in range, 6.5 x 14 = 91%, so you will get 30% more total non-physical running Enchanter. If you're running a build that can have a high uptime on the Elementalist bonus, then it might make sense to run it instead because that bonus is multiplied by the whole damage equation.
Dude I was so excited when I saw this video pop up. No lie, I actually Rick Flair'ed, WWWWOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Lol. Maxroll needs to hire you to help write their guidss. Thank you for this stellar video.
@@Zikorik What's crazy dude, is I don't see ANYONE else talking about this. Hopefully this doesn't get changed / nerfed because I will be doing this exact thing for Season 1, haha =)
@@bazenga82 I still think this will be strong but someone ran a pretty solid test on the elemental damage from gear that is multiplied and added on top shown at 1:25 - evidence suggests this may be a tooltip error, where the real damage equals Non-Physical + Cold Dmg, instead of Non-Physical + (Cold Dmg * Non-Physical), so my cold dmg in this example may be actually 230.2 + 39.1 = 269.3 instead of the 359.3 shown in my tooltip. I still think this is very strong and viable , just not as crazy as I imagined unfortunately. I will compare this with other paragon starts in my next video to show comparison. Here is the experiment by Rocketcarts: docs.google.com/document/d/1raFSYYfMYZ-ULXFsbGg5HUfm-qOHrRIYnKNpdL8HTKc/edit?pli=1
I’m a blizzard build, I assume is not worth getting the 20% increase in blizzard size glyph. Due to all the damage I’m getting instead? Awesome vid btw
Yes that could be solid for your 2nd glyph slot since it scales the dmg and the size, the glyph on the enchanter board has 65 int on it so it would still scale well - I'll touch on some other important glyphs in my next video for the other damage groups
Blizzard does terrible damage no matter how you slice it. To make it deal damage, use the ice spikes aspect with blizzard, and the increased ice spike radius. Keep blizzard at level one, and don't use the increased area so you keep ice spikes closer together. This does incredible damage. Make sure you fully upgrade your item with the blizzard ice spike aspect before extraction.
Ceaseless Conduit would be the best if you are focused on the crackling energy mechanic , static surge will be best if you are focused on melee stun / crit . My next video will touch on some other important boards that are worth considering for any build and show how they compare with the dmg equation
@@Zikorik i dont use the crackling so mutch i use these lightning spells, lightning spear, teleport, unstable currents, flame shield and spark and chain lightning
My dude, I appreciate the video, I’ll give you a like and a follow… but please turn the game volume down so we can hear you better. I’m rewinding multiple times to hear what you says because closed captions are dumb af some times.
final form would look something like this, with the 3rd board in the middle being whatever the best elemental board for your build is, so Icefall as frost: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
Can you comment on how much damage this adds to a build as compare to taking the fire-damage synergies? It seems really common that people just go firebolt enchant -> fire damage synergies instead.
I can't comment exactly on the damage comparison, but in general if you have a choice between +10% to non-physical and +10% to burning, non-physical will always be better because it is active all the time (instead of just vs burning targets) and it does the elemental gear multiplier mentioned here. If we compare Flamefeeder with Enchanter for the first glyph slot at lvl 15, Enchanter will give you 70% non-phys because there is +70 int available around it so it will be 5 x 14 , whereas the Flamefeeder glyph only gives you +53.2% to burning because it gives 7.6% per 5 dex but there is only 39 dex so 7.6 x 7 = 53.2 Do keep in mind these modifiers exist within the same damage bucket which I will touch on in my next vid
nah they are pretty similar tho, that was with Avalanche key passive and frozen orb, this one is Shatter key passive with ice shards, most the other stuff is the same. Gonna start working on the build guide for chain shatter this week
once you get exploit and some of the other multiplicative boards I would be curious to see your damage lol gonna be nutty. It might be better to steal a little from your first board so you can get farther right now and then later put those points back
Tru I could probably squeeze some points out here and there good call. My next vid is gonna take a look at the damage equation and compare some of the multiplicative boards but I think ur right, gonna try to go Frigid Fate to the vuln nodes and slot exploit asap
basically I'm trying to reach the most important nodes as efficiently as possible while grabbing as much int as I can along the way. The reason I am focusing on Dex around the enchanter socket is because I'm running a glyph there that scales off dex
In general stat prio for sorcerer right now should be int > crit > will > str , so as I move across the paragon board I try to take the path that gives me the stats in this priority as I move to the higher value magic and rare node clusters
Yes in retrospect I will likely prio Exploit in my 2nd glyph slot and move down to Frigid Fate to pick up the vuln nodes - my next video will compare these ideas for early paragon board starts and try to combine them for the best endgame board setup
Honestly the patch didn't change much for this homie, main thing would be that Destruction Glyph is a bit higher prio now because it affects all crit damage instead of just core skills. I still go Enchanter glyph first, Exploit 2nd, Destruction 3rd with a lot of success. I made a video covering everything the patch changed for us if you want more details: ruclips.net/video/y7HSvEn68yQ/видео.html
i had almost 0 idea how the paragon board worked at level 65, this helped put it far greater perspective for me and my sorc is way more powerfull now!!! thanks
So for most gear slots where you'd be able to get elemental % damage, you'd be chosing it over one of the following: crit chance, crit damage, vuln, mana regen, resource cost reduction, attack speed, life. Outside of Frostburn on a Frost build (which might be less good than +4 to Ice Shard as well as an extra legendary aspect) seems incorrect. You also need to run Raiment to have a way to proc stun as Aspect of Control is so insanely good. I think I and others would appreciate a full build guide, or a guide of what your gear/paragon etc is expected to look like at 100. Then we can do a fair comparison. I think you're on to something here that isn't present in any of the cookie cutter guides (maxroll) but the question is whether or not it's better.
Covered a lot of this in the video I've been working on, I'll be working on a full build guide next for this chain shatter build, thanks again for the feedback ruclips.net/video/tnMPu68cv3o/видео.html
Crit matters for sure, that's why the final conclusion is basically to use each board and glyph together than affect different parts of the dmg equation. The idea here is that building a damage floor first to multiply your crit against will deliver better results along the leveling path. Keep in mind the tooltip error I mention at the beginning - your cold is actually lower than the 464% it's showing, check out the study in the pinned comment
You're 100% right. I just like to test gear. I reached torment just using the gear I upgraded from veteran. I feel people should know that it's OK if you're not overpowered.
Versus mobs this is really really good but versus bosses... a lil struggle Came back to say it is a very very good build, just the boss is a lil hard but in the rest easy peasy. Chill build, no struggle, didn't try a bigger nightmare dungeon but at least 60 you can do it no problem.
interesting... but lvl times on 100... and then try yourself times at a t65+ ... btw. look at the dmg at lilith... i play sourcerer myself... and blizzard needs to completely rework the character... we are good at the beginning ... but out the end, we are the worst, sry man ;)
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A deeper analysis confirms this is a very strong starting board despite the tooltip error mentioned below: ruclips.net/video/tnMPu68cv3o/видео.html
Hello everyone, thanks to some thorough testing by RocketCat, it appears that the multiplication of elemental damage rolls on gear shown at 1:25 may be a tooltip error. This means that +dmg rolls on gear for cold / lightning / fire may still just be additive like everything else in this damage category [Non-Physical Dmg + Cold Dmg], instead of multiplied and then added as the tooltip suggests [Non-Physical Dmg + (Cold Dmg * Non-Physical Dmg)]. More testing may need to be done to confirm this but RocketCat's experiment was very thorough and well documented, and for now I am convinced this is indeed a tooltip error and the bonus is additive like everything else, not multiplied then added. This means this start will not be quite as crazy powerful as I imagined, but could still be a very strong start for Sorcerer. My next video will compare this start (using this newfound information) to other meta paragon board priorities to understand how they stack up. I very much appreciate the feedback from everyone on these videos - together we will learn to build the most powerful sorcerers!
Link to the experiment from RocketCat: docs.google.com/document/d/1raFSYYfMYZ-ULXFsbGg5HUfm-qOHrRIYnKNpdL8HTKc/edit?pli=1
You may still be onto something if you ignored Elemental Dmg and focused on raw Non-Phsyical DMG. The main multipliers are Vunrbilaity, Crit, and attack speed, so Exploit, Destruction & Tactician are mandatory Glyphs but still leave 2-3 more Glyphs and boards to experiment with.
@@Josparda pretty much the exact conclusion I just came to in the video I've been workin on, very big brain of you lol respect
Looking at it your playing with 5 glyphs only?
I really enjoy your videos, especially for their game insight and the way you make the information easy to digest. Keep up the great videos and I hope your channel explodes!
Ayy thanks homie :D much appreciated, glad they are helpful
Thanks so much for sharing - really clean and clear. As a noob, I had immediately gone for the ice board which you fit after the enchanter board with a very similar path to the one you are looking to do - you got my hype to respec the board and grind some levels to progress the board 🙌
Would love to hear how it's feeling after the changes
This helped my build so much! Thank you! Great way of explaining everything. Keep it up sir.
Awesome to hear, keep blastin
Best sorcerer paragon boards guide on YT !! Ty mate! Greetings from Croatia.
Ayy thanks friend! Glad it helped :D
Thank you for this video - After changing my paragon I saw an instant change on my damage output with my build
I'm so glad I watched this. The whole time I thought that board was the non physical damage that I take was reduced. So as a sorcerer I went into the fire board since I'm using firebolt enchantment and ice shards enchantment. Wow what a difference the non physical dmg board has made. I was like there's no way sorcerer is this weak. I refunded about 50 points I had and got all the good stuff in the non physical board and I put in the enchanter glyph in the non physical dmg board and man I'm doing atleast 80% flat increased dmg. Man I had no idea this is what was holding my sorcerer back. It's also my first diablo game so there's still alot to learn with all the stats and paragon. I am level 75 with sorcerer. And I appreciate the video man.
Awesome to hear thanks for the feedback :D my next vid will take a deeper look at some of the meta recommended glyphs / boards and compare the math in the damage equation
I want to thank you again for this video. I've been watching different build videos and noticed a big difference in damage on skills. I took some numbers on ice shards and blizzard. My Damage with Cold is at 502.7%.
Blizzard. 1 point, mine 34,728 and theirs 11,379. (mine with 8 points 59,038)
Ice shards. 9 points, mine 10,819 and theirs 3,545.
They didn't take this paragon board so I'm guessing that this is the difference.
Awesome mate glad to hear it is working
1 does it matter if The enchantment master board comes second or could it be in any order. 2 Is it possible that you can do an updated version now of this with all the new changes.
Hey there. Well spotted on the curious interaction between Non-Physical Damage and Cold Damage in the tooltips. Having grown to not trust tooltips, I launched an investigation as to whether Non-Physical Damage was indeed double-dipping, acting as both an additive bonus and as a multiplier on +Cold Damage%. I don't think I can post links in youtube comments, but the test was conducted thusly, and is available on request if you'd like to work together on this:
- On my lvl 100 Sorc I reset my Paragon and made a paragon of Lvl15 Enchanter-boosted Non-Phys on Starter and Icefall. I removed my skillpoint in Avalanche as well.
- I recorded my stats and calculated my expected Damage Per Hit for my current setup with and without the Enchanter Glyph, both in the case of Tooltips being Incorrect, and Tooltips being Correct.
- I calculated the EXPECTED damage increase using the Damage Formula as we know it now, taking the tooltipped "Damage with Cold" in our additive bucket. Between Enchanter being there and it being not, we expected a 15% increase if tooltips are correct, or a 12% increase increase if Non-Phys and +Cold were in fact, two separate additives.
- I removed the Enchanter Glyph and fought Spiritcaller at the end of Ediru, recording all the damage numbers vs him while he's burning, vulnerable, and close.
- I repeated the test WITH Enchanter Glyph and recorded numbers again.
- I observed a 28.5% average damage increase, about twice the hypothesized damage increase.
Conclusion: Something very weird is going on with Non-Physical Damage that is a) not fully captured by Tooltips and b) not fully captured by our current Damage Formula (which places the tooltipped "Damage with Cold" in the additive bucket).
Of course, more controlled tests are required in order to say anything conclusive about this.
So non-physic is just additive with cold dmg right ?
it's because you get the buff into chill and frozen, since they are two separate states. Why chill damage with fire has more state multipliers.
very interesting thanks for the comment, would love to see this link
@@Zikorik Here we go! docs.google.com/document/d/1raFSYYfMYZ-ULXFsbGg5HUfm-qOHrRIYnKNpdL8HTKc/edit?usp=sharing
I am convinced, very thorough and documented test well done. Can I link this experiment to a pinned comment on these 2 vids?
why do my boards look different even when i rotate.
Awesome video! Will you post this build anywhere?
I would like to suggest the Tactician Glyph for the 2nd board
A solid suggestion, I was looking at it there. I think for my final build I would put it in the Frigid Fate board because that one has just enough dex to activate the bonus, and the glyph doesn't need dex to scale only for the bonus to come online, and it would improve the vuln nodes a bit. Then the other boards with more dex available for scaling could be used for exploit / destruction / control or other dex scaling ones
Man…..you helped me add over 100% damage with this vid. Thank you 🙏
Really helpful guide mate! Followed it myself. Any chance you could make a guide for Rogue? Playing a ranged rogue build but wanted to optimise my paragon board, thanks!
My dude bow rogue will be my 2nd class for sure lol, probably not until a bit later in season 1 tho as I am trying to master sorc first. If the paragon boards work similarly, try to see if there is one board with a physical dmg focus, one with a crit focus, and one with a vuln focus. Then try to include them around whatever your main build board is for your spec, kinda like shown for sorc at the end of this video.
genius. pure genius. subbed , liked. ty for this vid and the one after. SUCH GOOD INFO
ty ty friend we figuring it out, more to come!
I did the whole calculation using my real numbers... and I found only one mistake... the very first multiplier (skill damage)... ice shards does 35% of your weapon damage... so it's actually 35%, it's not 135% because it's not actually a bonus of 35% as everything else in the spreadsheet... when I changed the 135% to 35% in the spreadsheet... then the numbers where the same to the ones I was seeing in-game. Nevertheless, an amazing thing you've done, really helpful, I'm loving to mess around with this spreadsheet.
This is correct ty for the catch, I added a note to the pinned comment on that video ty, glad the spreadsheet is getting more use :D
Spot on. This gave me 308% cold dmg increase. Nice work bro!
Thanks for the comment homie just wanted to give you a heads up - based on the findings in my latest video and an experiment done by a member of the community, it seems there is a tooltip error and these elemental stats may just be getting added like everything else instead of multiplied then added - I ran this analysis and found that this is still a very viable strategy except that you get bigger final numbers if you build crit chance, crit damage, and vulnerability damage into your gear with this paragon path because of the way the damage equation works: ruclips.net/video/tnMPu68cv3o/видео.html
Exciting! Just started a conjure build and close to unlocking the paragon board. This gives me a great idea and direction to head for.
Hi.i was wondering how that conjuring build went about?
I'm just wondering what you think the next boards should be, do you have a full PB layout? ... Cheers brother.
I think my final setup as frost would end up looking something like this, with the middle board being the best board for whatever element your build is so Icefall as frost: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
What about for Lightning sorcerer. I've been following your board but now I'm at the 3rd board and was wondering about ceaseless conduit. Do you have an idea?
nice so far , what about a version in paragon planner ? i wanna test it , something visual to the end would be helpful
This is my best look so far with the middle board being replaced by whatever your main build board is (so mine is Icefall as frost). This gives 3 boards and glyphs that influence different parts of the damage equation getting multiplied by eachother (Enchanter / Enchanter for non-physical, Exploit / Frigid Fate for vuln, and Searing Heat / Destruction for crit), with your main build board in the middle benefiting from all these bonuses: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
Great information here, it sounds logical that scaling base damage before crit / vuln will eventually result in bigger numbers, I will put this to the test, even tough paragon respecing cost millions and 30 min of single respecing every single point
lmao feel that hopefully they make respeccing the full board a little more reasonable. Really appreciate your comments and feedback on all the vids!
i putted my points like you did but where shall i put the rest then?
Been waiting on this since I watched your first vid earlier 👍 thank you
Are u going to make a full paragon board build or an updated version of this ?
This is my best look so far with the middle board being replaced by whatever your main build board is (so mine is Icefall as frost). This gives 3 boards and glyphs that influence different parts of the damage equation getting multiplied by eachother (Enchanter / Enchanter for non-physical, Exploit / Frigid Fate for vuln, and Searing Heat / Destruction for crit), with your main build board in the middle benefiting from all these bonuses: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
Very nice analysis. This assumes you want to completely focus on damage, what about efficiency for both dealing damage and damage reduction?
Yes you are correct this does assume that the focus is 100% on damage - as frost I built to Icefall quickly in the 3rd board so I have barrier from killing frozen enemies, frost armor, barrier after deep freeze ult (which is also a great defensive for frost since it gives me a great immune reset to regen mana and 50% CDR reduction on ice armor and frost nova), and after I use a cooldown I get a barrier from the protection passive so with my build this is all the defensive I need and can build full damage. It will certainly depend on your build for if other defensives are worth prioritizing which I may look at in a later video. Ty for the thoughtful comment.
Wait. I'm still trying to figure out the 1st board. I'm at the top, and that's it. I don't have any options to start another board. It has to be user error, but...
Do you think the same concept with damage with physical to barbs can be applied?
I like where your heads at, sadly no I checked with my bro who plays barb and even more sadly this appears to be a tooltip error, where the elemental stats are just getting added vs multiplied then added like the tooltip suggestions, shown in this experiment by a very diligent member of the community: docs.google.com/document/d/1raFSYYfMYZ-ULXFsbGg5HUfm-qOHrRIYnKNpdL8HTKc/edit?pli=1
Fortunately my latest video shows that this still holds up as a very viable strategy with just the raw 240% non-physical damage especially before endgame - main lesson learned is that building crit and vuln dmg into gear will get multiplied by the non-physical on the board & glyph because of how the dmg equation works, so if there is a way to build physical into your glyph and board as barb this same concept should apply if you build crit and vuln into your gear with it
Has this been changed? My Enchantment board looks completely different
I'm interested to know if it makes more sense to do for example 1st added board be the non phys dmg, 2nd board vulnerable damage, 3rd board crit damage
Definitely could make sense depending on your build, I would say depending on how important the stuff your main element build board is like if you really need the legendary node, if it can wait then going vuln 3rd could be the play. This is likely what my final board would look like as frost sorcerer with Icefall being my main element board in the middle: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
are you able to input the whole paragon board build? Would love to enjoy the benefits end game ? Thanks in advance!
Totally changed my gameplay and performance with my 92 Sorceress. Damage is way higher now and more constant.
so awesome to hear ty for sharing
Thank you for all the work you have done on these video's. Is it possible to get a picture showing the path you took and the glyphs you used on the Icefall board please.
You need to dip into other damage buckets as well to increase your damage even more. I would recommend testing out 2 different builds for the third board, one that focuses on the one you showed, and the other that focuses on vulnerable damage, and see which one does more damage.
Yes I was planning to hit vuln on my 4th board and maybe 5th for crit but this is probably a good call looking at the math. My next vid will compare a couple early paragon board starts and compare the math in the damage equation
@@Zikorik Please make a full level 100 board! Currently level 83 and want to be as efficient as possible.
This is so insanely well thought! I like this video and your other 2s about this topic so so so much! 200 IQ and a real Genius. This is the moment where math and logical thinking gets everybody exited! Thank you a lot, i am sure this kind of thinking is also viable for melee Classes etc. So well done mate! Just awesome!
Really appreciate the kind words and feedback, glad you found it useful! :D anytime we can get excited about math it's a win lol
Hello, do you plan update with next pages ? Great job, I'm following your suggestions and it works as hell, anyway I don't have perfect gear yet.
Yes I will, check out the video I just posted that I've been working on it shows some other options with a good optimal setup at the end. Glad it's helping you blast more demons thanks for watching :D
Wow! Where can i find a lvl 100 paragon board please?
This is what a solid final setup could look like, with the 3rd board in the middle being whatever the main elemental board for your build is (so Icefall for me as frost in this example), then building toward the vulnerability nodes on frigid fate 4th and then the searing heat board for crit after that
d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
Ohhh man! Thank you so much! Can't wait to test it out!
I'm still new to the paragon board and just trying to follow along. What's the name of that second board you attached? Not rotated?
i.e. the first board you attached after the starter
I'm confused why doesn't my second board look like yours??
I appreciate the research undertaken here. I'm concerned that the Vulnerable board is not being spoken about enough here however.
Facts
Check out my next vid I cover this in detail, you are correct tho: ruclips.net/video/tnMPu68cv3o/видео.html
Really enjoyed your video, very informative. Have you made a video on the Build you are using. I would like to check that out. Thanks,
Just finished the video I've been working on but I will be doing a build guide on this chain shatter build next!
Subbed a few days ago after your first video
Can you make a video for lvl 100 paragon?? Your first video helped me increase a ton of damage.
The final setup for the frost build I'm running right now would likely look something like this, with the 3rd board being the best board for whatever your main build element is or whatever legendary node you are after - mine is Icefall as frost: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
Glad to hear it helped!!
Thanks for the video. Can you please do a paragon board for max lvl 100 on d4builds. Would very much appreciate it.
Yes I will I am working on my next video to post today but I will do it later tonight and link
@@Zikorikcan i get a link pls,live your vids.
Me to! Would love to get a lvl 100 paragon board please! 😮
really good, precise, no b.s. breakdown. well earned sub from me 💪
Seems legit everybody is diff. You got a full board lineup?
this indirectly helped me squeeze out a lot more damage. thanks for the video!
i tried this and ended up doing about 50% less damage at lvl 79. with a lvl 100 this might be better because all the other damage nodes could be selected. while leveling, it's better to use control in first glyph, and after around 300 ele damage go into vulnerability nodes, then finish off the remaining paragons with the damage to chilled and more ele damage. or it's wasting points on stats with huge diminishing returns, and a massive time requirement for more points.
Correct me if I'm wrong, so what you're saying is go first for the nodes/glyphs that are known to be multiplicative, correct?
Would love to see some more info on this from you @assortedshorts , your build and if you were stacking any elemental gear when you tested this, also how you measured the 50% decrease, just from feel or you have a tool to measure?
My next video will compare this with the multiplicative runes in the first slot @nubbmann637
Friend, can we see your final board?
Yes sorry! It will look something like this with your 3rd board being whatever the main element board for your build is with the legendary node you need, so Icefall for frost in this example: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
For some reason my board doesn’t look like that one…
Did they modify it on Battlenet?
Oh! I didn’t realize you can rotate the board 😂. Thanks for these videos! They’re really helping me out !
That is very interesting! Thank you a lot!
Can you make a sorc build video (e.g. ice shards build)
Yes I will make one on this chain shatter build soon!
@@Zikorik Did you try out the maximum nm dungeon tier capability? I am very curious to include the enchanter board glyph into my blizzard build or any sorc build
Sorry new to this, how come my enchanter board is different than yours. (The lay out). It doesn't look the same even before I put in the glyphs
rotate it ?
Sorry for the slow response - it's not immediately obvious at first but you can rotate the boards to optimize their setup, so most of the boards shown here are rotated a few times to fit optimally
My guy can we have a link to your build plz you explanation is great buy moving to fast I loke to read
Sorry for the slow response homie, here is an optimized final setup for the chain shatter build I posted recently that utilizes all these concepts: d4builds.gg/builds/66249625-c549-4497-bb26-9eb3b840d6d5/
Have you done a full level 100 paragon board analysis for highest dmg output?
My most recent video is an analysis comparing the power of different starts to the board, with the conclusions pointing toward something close to this being a solid level 100 setup, with the 3rd board in the middle being whatever is the best elemental board for your build so as frost would be Icefall: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
As i can see your enchanter glypt is level 15. So what happens if you max it up to 21 ? Will your character get stronger or stays the same ?
Yes, at level 15 with the 70 int within range it will give about 70% increase to non-physical damage, at level 21 it will give about 21% more so 91% total. I like to level my Enchanter glyph to 15 so it gets its 2nd range and then prioritize other glyphs to max out to 21 first, mainly Destruction (which recently got buffed to affect all dmg not just core skills) and Exploit because they hit different parts of the damage equation
what if i do only shock/lightning damage will this build increase that damage to🤔🤔🤔🙂?
yep non-physical includes all elements, just go for your main shock/lightning board 3rd after this enchanter board. Consider trying to rush the vulnerability nodes on Frigid Fate board shortly after that if your build gives you any vulnerability because that is a big part of the damage equation
@@Zikorik hi whats the name on the shock/lightning board that i will use as my third board🤔🤔🤔🙂?
When you say "stacked underneath it," do you mean to say that the order of the paragon boards matters for how the stats interact with one another? I know it affects the stat reqs for bonuses on rares, but didn't know there was more to the order.
no the order does not matter, that was just a manner of speech
how come elementalist on first socket gives me more non physical damage than the enchanter? am i missing something here?
Your glyph needs to be at least level 15 to get it's 2nd range and you need to scoop all the int around this node (including the bonus on the two rare nodes, 70 total) to get the max value out of it. At max rank Elementalist gives a 75% increase to the nodes within range. There is a total of +35% non-physical damage on the nodes within range. 75% of 35% is 26.25%, so that would give you a total of 61.25% non-physical damage vs Enchanter glyph fully ranked which would give 6.5% non-physical per 5 int, so with 70 int in range, 6.5 x 14 = 91%, so you will get 30% more total non-physical running Enchanter. If you're running a build that can have a high uptime on the Elementalist bonus, then it might make sense to run it instead because that bonus is multiplied by the whole damage equation.
This was such a great video.
Dude I was so excited when I saw this video pop up. No lie, I actually Rick Flair'ed, WWWWOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Lol. Maxroll needs to hire you to help write their guidss. Thank you for this stellar video.
lmao hype, thanks homie much love
@@Zikorik What's crazy dude, is I don't see ANYONE else talking about this. Hopefully this doesn't get changed / nerfed because I will be doing this exact thing for Season 1, haha =)
@@bazenga82 I still think this will be strong but someone ran a pretty solid test on the elemental damage from gear that is multiplied and added on top shown at 1:25 - evidence suggests this may be a tooltip error, where the real damage equals Non-Physical + Cold Dmg, instead of Non-Physical + (Cold Dmg * Non-Physical), so my cold dmg in this example may be actually 230.2 + 39.1 = 269.3 instead of the 359.3 shown in my tooltip. I still think this is very strong and viable , just not as crazy as I imagined unfortunately. I will compare this with other paragon starts in my next video to show comparison.
Here is the experiment by Rocketcarts: docs.google.com/document/d/1raFSYYfMYZ-ULXFsbGg5HUfm-qOHrRIYnKNpdL8HTKc/edit?pli=1
What's your first glyph?
yoo sry for the slow response, here is the full setup shown at the end: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
@@Zikorik No problem. Thanks, man. :)
I’m a blizzard build, I assume is not worth getting the 20% increase in blizzard size glyph. Due to all the damage I’m getting instead? Awesome vid btw
Yes that could be solid for your 2nd glyph slot since it scales the dmg and the size, the glyph on the enchanter board has 65 int on it so it would still scale well - I'll touch on some other important glyphs in my next video for the other damage groups
Blizzard does terrible damage no matter how you slice it. To make it deal damage, use the ice spikes aspect with blizzard, and the increased ice spike radius. Keep blizzard at level one, and don't use the increased area so you keep ice spikes closer together. This does incredible damage. Make sure you fully upgrade your item with the blizzard ice spike aspect before extraction.
Subbing to you, my dude. So much good info. Thank you!
so wich board should i take as second then for my lightning shock sorc🤔🤔🤔🙂?
Ceaseless Conduit would be the best if you are focused on the crackling energy mechanic , static surge will be best if you are focused on melee stun / crit . My next video will touch on some other important boards that are worth considering for any build and show how they compare with the dmg equation
@@Zikorik i dont use the crackling so mutch i use these lightning spells, lightning spear, teleport, unstable currents, flame shield and spark and chain lightning
My dude, I appreciate the video, I’ll give you a like and a follow… but please turn the game volume down so we can hear you better. I’m rewinding multiple times to hear what you says because closed captions are dumb af some times.
sorry homie, noted
Just follow the icyveins iceshards build if your going iceshards. Multiplicative is almost always better than additive and he nails that
Need a link to this paragon board please
final form would look something like this, with the 3rd board in the middle being whatever the best elemental board for your build is, so Icefall as frost: d4builds.gg/builds/35dcd314-acb6-42ca-a6ad-24667721ba50/
Can you comment on how much damage this adds to a build as compare to taking the fire-damage synergies? It seems really common that people just go firebolt enchant -> fire damage synergies instead.
do both
I can't comment exactly on the damage comparison, but in general if you have a choice between +10% to non-physical and +10% to burning, non-physical will always be better because it is active all the time (instead of just vs burning targets) and it does the elemental gear multiplier mentioned here. If we compare Flamefeeder with Enchanter for the first glyph slot at lvl 15, Enchanter will give you 70% non-phys because there is +70 int available around it so it will be 5 x 14 , whereas the Flamefeeder glyph only gives you +53.2% to burning because it gives 7.6% per 5 dex but there is only 39 dex so 7.6 x 7 = 53.2
Do keep in mind these modifiers exist within the same damage bucket which I will touch on in my next vid
Is this the same sorc build from your earlier video?
nah they are pretty similar tho, that was with Avalanche key passive and frozen orb, this one is Shatter key passive with ice shards, most the other stuff is the same. Gonna start working on the build guide for chain shatter this week
@@Zikorik awesome! I’ll keep an eye out for it
once you get exploit and some of the other multiplicative boards I would be curious to see your damage lol gonna be nutty. It might be better to steal a little from your first board so you can get farther right now and then later put those points back
Tru I could probably squeeze some points out here and there good call. My next vid is gonna take a look at the damage equation and compare some of the multiplicative boards but I think ur right, gonna try to go Frigid Fate to the vuln nodes and slot exploit asap
is it good for a lightning shock sorc🤔🤔🤔🙂?
Yes but you want to try to find as high a roll to + Lightning Damage as you can on both your rings and your chest
I hope you will finish the Boards with All points
i'm a fan bro, i changed everything i had the same gear as you too im lvl 72 but i die really fast.
why did you skip so many +5 intelligence node in enchanters board🤔🤔🤔🙂?
basically I'm trying to reach the most important nodes as efficiently as possible while grabbing as much int as I can along the way. The reason I am focusing on Dex around the enchanter socket is because I'm running a glyph there that scales off dex
@@Zikorik ah ok i understand 🙂👍
why dident you choose any with willpower🤔🤔🤔🙂?
In general stat prio for sorcerer right now should be int > crit > will > str , so as I move across the paragon board I try to take the path that gives me the stats in this priority as I move to the higher value magic and rare node clusters
Dude this is sick 👌
Isnt cold dmg additive? Missing vuln ans crit dmg its - two multiplicative
Yes, which is why this video doesn’t align with any other opinion on this topic. This is not good advice.
you get the two for chill and frozen, both separate game states.
Yes in retrospect I will likely prio Exploit in my 2nd glyph slot and move down to Frigid Fate to pick up the vuln nodes - my next video will compare these ideas for early paragon board starts and try to combine them for the best endgame board setup
Amazing content
Thanks for the Video
I hope this gets updated after the patch…😢
Honestly the patch didn't change much for this homie, main thing would be that Destruction Glyph is a bit higher prio now because it affects all crit damage instead of just core skills. I still go Enchanter glyph first, Exploit 2nd, Destruction 3rd with a lot of success. I made a video covering everything the patch changed for us if you want more details: ruclips.net/video/y7HSvEn68yQ/видео.html
i had almost 0 idea how the paragon board worked at level 65, this helped put it far greater perspective for me and my sorc is way more powerfull now!!! thanks
:D
Great vid! Great series! Will you do other classes in Diablo 4?
yes but starting with just sorc to really figure it out and master it
@@Zikorik makes perfect sense! The content is fantastic! Keep it up!
@@Matthewcmiel ty ty :D
So for most gear slots where you'd be able to get elemental % damage, you'd be chosing it over one of the following: crit chance, crit damage, vuln, mana regen, resource cost reduction, attack speed, life. Outside of Frostburn on a Frost build (which might be less good than +4 to Ice Shard as well as an extra legendary aspect) seems incorrect. You also need to run Raiment to have a way to proc stun as Aspect of Control is so insanely good. I think I and others would appreciate a full build guide, or a guide of what your gear/paragon etc is expected to look like at 100. Then we can do a fair comparison. I think you're on to something here that isn't present in any of the cookie cutter guides (maxroll) but the question is whether or not it's better.
great comment, more testing inc
Covered a lot of this in the video I've been working on, I'll be working on a full build guide next for this chain shatter build, thanks again for the feedback
ruclips.net/video/tnMPu68cv3o/видео.html
This doesn't do much for damage. Just saying. I got my cold damage 464% and it doesn't really do much. Crit matters
Crit matters for sure, that's why the final conclusion is basically to use each board and glyph together than affect different parts of the dmg equation. The idea here is that building a damage floor first to multiply your crit against will deliver better results along the leveling path. Keep in mind the tooltip error I mention at the beginning - your cold is actually lower than the 464% it's showing, check out the study in the pinned comment
If I don't need the power, then this isn't optimal
This is true - this is optimized for max power
You're 100% right. I just like to test gear. I reached torment just using the gear I upgraded from veteran. I feel people should know that it's OK if you're not overpowered.
Versus mobs this is really really good but versus bosses... a lil struggle
Came back to say it is a very very good build, just the boss is a lil hard but in the rest easy peasy.
Chill build, no struggle, didn't try a bigger nightmare dungeon but at least 60 you can do it no problem.
my next vid will take a look at the damage equation and why this might be the case, ty for the feedback
he doesnt even say what the board is that he is using.
just look ? its the enchanter board rotated. The one with all of the non-physical damage nodes on it.
I think I say it a couple mins in when I introduce the board but probably should mention it sooner ya ty for feedback
my head hurts. thank you though.
Damn thanks
Man, you need to put an image or something in the description to better follow.
You're going 100 mph and it's almost impossible to actually follow.
THIS DUDE DOES WAY TO MUCH TALKING INSTEAD OF SHOWING
interesting... but lvl times on 100... and then try yourself times at a t65+ ... btw. look at the dmg at lilith... i play sourcerer myself... and blizzard needs to completely rework the character... we are good at the beginning ... but out the end, we are the worst, sry man ;)
my enchanter board does not look like this
you can rotate it
Could they have made the game any more complicated? Back to D2R. Paragon board is ridiculous.
I'll figure it out :D D2R still a solid choice tho
May as well be speaking Chinese. None of the Paragon shit makes any sense. Lol