When a movie feels like it hates its own source material, you know you’re in for a dreadful experience… When a movie feels like it hates the PRIOR entry… that’s just next level lmao. It’s like the Star Wars sequel effect.
There once was a man named Fleck, Whose life was a bit of a wreck, He danced in the rain, While losing his brain, Now Gotham just says, "What the heck?" 😜🎭
According to Deadline at least $50m of the reported $190m production budget went to the Phillips, Phoenix & Gaga trio! Phillips was also given Final Cut on the movie cos of the roughly $2.5bn the first movie & the Hangover movies grossed worldwide plus they did ZERO audience testing of the movie! That budget on a relatively grounded comic-book movie with substantially less VFX shots & locations than a standard blockbuster makes no sense at all as a reasonable increase from the first movie's $55-70m budget to $80-100m MAX would've made more sense.
I love the analogy: this film is like getting suckered into a 2 hour and 15 minute long timeshare sales pitch. and why would anyone abandon Arthur Fleck simply because he did not have a split personality disorder? if anything, their support for him should be even stronger knowing that he had the will inside him to do what he did.
That's the problem. By the end of joker 2019 arthur was badass he had nothing to lose and he was THE joker. Then he completely regressed by the 2nd movie. Just bad.
@@JohnDoe-vt8vp This movies point was to slap the fans of the character The Joker in the face, and that's why people hate it. Give the people what they want, an actual Joker movie not this half baked, take everything out of the Joker that made him the Joker and make him a pathetic sad guy (which has no comic basis). The first one ended with him becoming The Joker and the second intentionally went and made him just a man.
I've seen so many people defending the movie. Pretty much saying the plebs just wasn't understand it, it's not meant to be a comic book movie.. The characters based on a comic book character, it's supposed to be a comic book character movie. If you didn't want to it to be a comic book, character movie then make an original character in original movie. Oh, oh wait, they kind of did... Babe took an original character and superimposed a personality that did not belong to him onto him... Which would have been fine if they just stuck with the first movie, cuz then you can say well. Maybe he's just imitating the joker because he just crazy, but this movie implies he came before the joker. That he was an inspiration for the joker.
It’s a masterpiece! & I don’t think people are deep enough to truly appreciate it. Arthur fleck is Batman’s half brother & Batman’s dad ironically created the inevitable real joker( the man who kills Arthur fleck). Arthur never experienced love , not from his mom or anyone, that sadness that loneliness and utter despair is the entire point. Arthur is a good person a victim , someone we all had empathy for in part 1 and throughout. He bottled up his emotions and trauma tried to laugh it off as his mom would try and have him do calling “happy” , but those emotions never went away , it could go to suicide or outward aggression and in part 1 he chose outward aggression. Something he is eventually remorseful for in part 2 . The Folie a deux is French for two crazy people delusional together . He’s delusional believing harley truly loves him for who he is as Arthur Fleck, and she’s delusional for loving the joker side of him even tho that’s not really him because he’s a good guy deep down inside because his true self is not the “joker “ psychopath , and not even the real joker after all. The midget even said you were always good to me. It was Arthur’s redemption, to be honest and true self, but when he went searching for Harley the tragedy is she doesn’t love who he really is and Arthur ends up dying alone never experiencing love. Just when you feel good for him that he finally is being loved. Arthur doesn’t make the direct connection that maybe he could get fake love if he continues the fake self joker persona and is never presented that opportunity, maybe he would have kept being the joker just to please her if it meant he could be fake loved by Harley, maybe that would have caused him the anger he needed to turn into the real joker, we will never know. At the end of it that’s all Arthur ever wanted , love. When he sees Harley his make up is faded away as Arthur fleck this weak man who came out at closing statement emerges as his true vulnerable unattractive true self to Harley, that’s why she left him alone in the courtroom as she herself realizes in the end that it was all a fantasy & he isn’t the joker, she studied to be a psychiatrist and realizes what he really is and leaves him & turns him in to the cops. Arthur betrayed and symbolically shot by Harley in the stomach comes to fruition. In the end he is the origin story & inspiration of the real joker , the guy who kills him in the end and cuts smile on his face in the background, which is the perhaps the Keith ledger Joker character who battles Batman not Arthur fleck. We all are him angry at the film angry at Arthur not giving him love and stabbing him to death. Even some happy he dies for being this weak man nobody loves. The musical aspect of the film is fitting since no singing occurs until he falls in fake love with lady Gaga, he never sings in his delusions prior to this, and he even sings in his real life in fitting and funny moments to his cell inmates. Singing is his delusional state feeling the perceived notion of love that he truly never receives and I don’t mind the music since he’s crazy singing to himself most of the time. We are the audience that hates him for not being funny , the point of this film is not to like him for being weak and vulnerable, that’s why you don’t like it, Arthur fleck still not being loved. The film is deeper then we think and horrible if you come in to it with pre conceived notions of what you thought it should be. In due time I hope people appreciate the beauty of the film and don’t look at it through a superficial lens.
First time I've ever seen one of your videos. I am impressed by the well-rounded discussion. There's generally not this level of substance on most channels. I have subscribed.
I havent seen the movie. I have seen 2 interesting reviews of the film, in which the people actually liked. I havent seen this film, so I can't confirm if this is a cohesive takeaway. Lee and "new" Joker aren't real. They represent aspects of Arthurs psyche and how he reconciles his trauma, and the idolatry of his celebrity status. He desires understanding and intimacy. He tried to get it from Thomas (wealthy and power), Lee is a representative of his fan base that also comes from wealth like Thomas, she's a concurrent supplement between the attention he has and the attention he wants. The end Joker isnt a seperate person, and Arthur doesn't die. It represents Arthur fully giving over to the Joker despite him not wanting to. That was the 1st reviewer. The second reviewer mentioned that he's different because he's on his medicine, when he tells Lee he's stopped taking it, he's lying. When he's being the Joker in the courtroom, he's acting, because that real Joker happens when he's not on medicine. I havent heard anybody talk about the possibility of Lee and End Joker being fake other than 1 guy. I havent heard anybody talk about the medicine except another seperate guy. When he's graped he gives up the joker persona, because he's still on meds. He was only acting like the Joker. When he goes thru trauma while on meds he just takes it (like when the kids steal his sign). He doesn't react to trauma in Joker fashion to things until he's off of his meds. So, when the grape happens, it's this American history x turning point that makes him change. After his Fandom Abandons him (represented by Lee) it breaks his heart. He truly stops taking his medicine at that point. And that leads us to the end, where he gives himself over to Joker. "Idol" Joker is Arthur trying to capitalize on his manifested Joker persona to fulfill the needs of Arthur thru narcissistic supply. Arthur medicated regrets his decisions as Joker and realize he rode the way to fulfill intimacy needs. When he realizes that NOBODY Cares for Arthur...He BECOMES FULL Joker. A version of Joker equivalent to Heaths fully actualized Joker who is Loyal to no one at all. The 1st movie was meta. The end about people deciding what's funny and not, is Todd shitting on the media because they critically rejected War Dogs and said it was inappropriate. When Arthur shoots Deniro, Deniro represents the media. This film is like a Stanley Kubrick film that uses Jungian psychology to have a superficial film and an entire secondary subliminal "shadow" film. Hints the beginning animated sequence. The 1st layer is the ultimate FU to the media and everybody who hijacked the film for their purpose. Just like the fans hijacked the Joker for their purpose in the film. The shadow film is how these dynamics push Arthur into full Joker. Meta speaking, Joker represents the director. The director goes full Joker when he made this film. Because it's completely selfish. Not for the gratification of others at all with no form of people pleasing. Art, for the directors therapy.
With Podcasters there's always that Danger/ When reviewing a sequel that's stranger/ So pardonnez- moi/ This pods a folie a trois/ A hollow reverb echo chamber.
Predictable reaction that's similar to many others. There's much more to the film than y'all make it out to be. I love the first one and like this one. I don't think Todd Phillips hates me. Ridiculous. He's made a challenging film that in fairness probably should have been marketed differently. Maybe it should've been called Arthur Fleck - Me and My Shadow. That would've prepared people more for what they were getting into. It reminded me of some hard-hitting downer films from the 70s.
You will be able to see a WB animated film in theaters again when the looney tunes movie The Day the Earth Blew Up with Daffy Duck and Porky Pig comes out.
From my standpoint the cinematography explains so much more. For example, you mentioned the songs not following the musicals structure. Each song is giving the viewer an understanding of their obsessions with each other. The songs and visuals or shots of their faces and lighting to convey his decent into insanity where he embodies joker. He can sing. We know gaga can sing. I love how stylistically the movie managed to not break the integrity of the dark realistic character imaginings by two characters who don’t sing. It was so important to me to hear their voices crack and slowly, their voices are backed by orchestra’s and a proper musical number demonstrating again, their insanity and Arthur’s loss of control over his own body. There are so many other things that highlight the cult classic status it will become. Pretty sure it’s a musical that’s not actually a musical. Meta af
I didn’t know the first joker became a symbol for incel communities which sucks because I see a well done sequel. There’s mention on no proper care for mental health, something that’s a growing problem now. It’s the mainline and only way to really see the film. It’s through the lens of a man who had an abusive mother who triggered his DID or multiple personality disorder. DID isn’t studied enough and the commentary on men’s mental health should be talked about too.
Haha hardcore feminist strikes again for wanting the female character “to do more” and this week it’s Catherine Keener. It came near the end but I always knew his complaint was inevitable 😆 🙄
You guys literally live in a country where some worship Trump and you have a hard time beleiving that some parts of society would totally take the wrong message from the actions of Arthur and run with it? ok. I agree with Dave in that the aftermath of the first being a media and social circus is 100% accurate. Difference is deep down Arthur isn't an evil person. I loved both the first and 2nd film, this will be the next Fight Club and apprciated in 5-10 years.
Well, that's an opinion. I do think that's what Todd Phillips had in mind.😂 Unfortunately, not everyone who enjoyed the first Joker or liked the character's portrayal from the first movie was an incel. This constant fear that the joker films would be some sort of national anthem for social rejects is soo overated.🙄 People bought tickets to watch the rise of the Joker not some pathetic dude be miserable for 2+ hours.🤦🏿♂️
You're making a lot of assumptions, aren't you? Always smart to assume a fanbase is a monolith of freaks just because you don't agree with them. To be clear, I thought the first one was okay, wouldn't call myself a fan though
From my standpoint the cinematography explains so much more. For example, you mentioned the songs not following the musicals structure. Each song is giving the viewer an understanding of their obsessions with each other. The songs and visuals or shots of their faces and lighting to convey his decent into insanity where he embodies joker. He can sing. We know gaga can sing. I love how stylistically the movie managed to not break the integrity of the dark realistic character imaginings by two characters who don’t sing. It was so important to me to hear their voices crack and slowly, their voices are backed by orchestra’s and a proper musical number demonstrating again, their insanity and Arthur’s loss of control over his own body. There are so many other things that highlight the cult classic status it will become. Pretty sure it’s a musical that’s not actually a musical. Meta af
When a movie feels like it hates its own source material, you know you’re in for a dreadful experience…
When a movie feels like it hates the PRIOR entry… that’s just next level lmao. It’s like the Star Wars sequel effect.
Ruin Johnston subverted my expectations.
There once was a man named Fleck,
Whose life was a bit of a wreck,
He danced in the rain,
While losing his brain,
Now Gotham just says, "What the heck?" 😜🎭
Ffff😊😊f😊
Joker will forever be a stand alone movie, it never had a sequel, this was a parody side project.
According to Deadline at least $50m of the reported $190m production budget went to the Phillips, Phoenix & Gaga trio! Phillips was also given Final Cut on the movie cos of the roughly $2.5bn the first movie & the Hangover movies grossed worldwide plus they did ZERO audience testing of the movie! That budget on a relatively grounded comic-book movie with substantially less VFX shots & locations than a standard blockbuster makes no sense at all as a reasonable increase from the first movie's $55-70m budget to $80-100m MAX would've made more sense.
I love the analogy: this film is like getting suckered into a 2 hour and 15 minute long timeshare sales pitch.
and why would anyone abandon Arthur Fleck simply because he did not have a split personality disorder? if anything, their support for him should be even stronger knowing that he had the will inside him to do what he did.
the limerick this week hit
The Joker is not supposed to be a weak character he is supposed to be utterly insane and an awesome villain.
Todd Phillips hates comics lol he just slapped familiar names on things to make mental case movies
That's the problem. By the end of joker 2019 arthur was badass he had nothing to lose and he was THE joker. Then he completely regressed by the 2nd movie. Just bad.
@@GabaGhoul10 that's your opinion and you're in the minority on that one in regards to the first movie
I see you missed the point of the movie lol
@@JohnDoe-vt8vp This movies point was to slap the fans of the character The Joker in the face, and that's why people hate it. Give the people what they want, an actual Joker movie not this half baked, take everything out of the Joker that made him the Joker and make him a pathetic sad guy (which has no comic basis). The first one ended with him becoming The Joker and the second intentionally went and made him just a man.
Legendary limerick.
I've seen so many people defending the movie. Pretty much saying the plebs just wasn't understand it, it's not meant to be a comic book movie.. The characters based on a comic book character, it's supposed to be a comic book character movie. If you didn't want to it to be a comic book, character movie then make an original character in original movie. Oh, oh wait, they kind of did... Babe took an original character and superimposed a personality that did not belong to him onto him... Which would have been fine if they just stuck with the first movie, cuz then you can say well. Maybe he's just imitating the joker because he just crazy, but this movie implies he came before the joker. That he was an inspiration for the joker.
The Filmcast deserves better comments. Love the show!
Can we start calling this movie Quin/cel?
And the oscar goes to: Todd Phillips for his Joker acting performance to ruin comics forever.
It’s a masterpiece! & I don’t think people are deep enough to truly appreciate it. Arthur fleck is Batman’s half brother & Batman’s dad ironically created the inevitable real joker( the man who kills Arthur fleck). Arthur never experienced love , not from his mom or anyone, that sadness that loneliness and utter despair is the entire point. Arthur is a good person a victim , someone we all had empathy for in part 1 and throughout. He bottled up his emotions and trauma tried to laugh it off as his mom would try and have him do calling “happy” , but those emotions never went away , it could go to suicide or outward aggression and in part 1 he chose outward aggression. Something he is eventually remorseful for in part 2 . The Folie a deux is French for two crazy people delusional together . He’s delusional believing harley truly loves him for who he is as Arthur Fleck, and she’s delusional for loving the joker side of him even tho that’s not really him because he’s a good guy deep down inside because his true self is not the “joker “ psychopath , and not even the real joker after all. The midget even said you were always good to me. It was Arthur’s redemption, to be honest and true self, but when he went searching for Harley the tragedy is she doesn’t love who he really is and Arthur ends up dying alone never experiencing love. Just when you feel good for him that he finally is being loved. Arthur doesn’t make the direct connection that maybe he could get fake love if he continues the fake self joker persona and is never presented that opportunity, maybe he would have kept being the joker just to please her if it meant he could be fake loved by Harley, maybe that would have caused him the anger he needed to turn into the real joker, we will never know. At the end of it that’s all Arthur ever wanted , love. When he sees Harley his make up is faded away as Arthur fleck this weak man who came out at closing statement emerges as his true vulnerable unattractive true self to Harley, that’s why she left him alone in the courtroom as she herself realizes in the end that it was all a fantasy & he isn’t the joker, she studied to be a psychiatrist and realizes what he really is and leaves him & turns him in to the cops. Arthur betrayed and symbolically shot by Harley in the stomach comes to fruition. In the end he is the origin story & inspiration of the real joker , the guy who kills him in the end and cuts smile on his face in the background, which is the perhaps the Keith ledger Joker character who battles Batman not Arthur fleck. We all are him angry at the film angry at Arthur not giving him love and stabbing him to death. Even some happy he dies for being this weak man nobody loves. The musical aspect of the film is fitting since no singing occurs until he falls in fake love with lady Gaga, he never sings in his delusions prior to this, and he even sings in his real life in fitting and funny moments to his cell inmates. Singing is his delusional state feeling the perceived notion of love that he truly never receives and I don’t mind the music since he’s crazy singing to himself most of the time. We are the audience that hates him for not being funny , the point of this film is not to like him for being weak and vulnerable, that’s why you don’t like it, Arthur fleck still not being loved. The film is deeper then we think and horrible if you come in to it with pre conceived notions of what you thought it should be. In due time I hope people appreciate the beauty of the film and don’t look at it through a superficial lens.
First time I've ever seen one of your videos. I am impressed by the well-rounded discussion. There's generally not this level of substance on most channels. I have subscribed.
I havent seen the movie. I have seen 2 interesting reviews of the film, in which the people actually liked. I havent seen this film, so I can't confirm if this is a cohesive takeaway.
Lee and "new" Joker aren't real.
They represent aspects of Arthurs psyche and how he reconciles his trauma, and the idolatry of his celebrity status. He desires understanding and intimacy. He tried to get it from Thomas (wealthy and power), Lee is a representative of his fan base that also comes from wealth like Thomas, she's a concurrent supplement between the attention he has and the attention he wants.
The end Joker isnt a seperate person, and Arthur doesn't die. It represents Arthur fully giving over to the Joker despite him not wanting to.
That was the 1st reviewer.
The second reviewer mentioned that he's different because he's on his medicine, when he tells Lee he's stopped taking it, he's lying. When he's being the Joker in the courtroom, he's acting, because that real Joker happens when he's not on medicine.
I havent heard anybody talk about the possibility of Lee and End Joker being fake other than 1 guy. I havent heard anybody talk about the medicine except another seperate guy.
When he's graped he gives up the joker persona, because he's still on meds. He was only acting like the Joker. When he goes thru trauma while on meds he just takes it (like when the kids steal his sign). He doesn't react to trauma in Joker fashion to things until he's off of his meds.
So, when the grape happens, it's this American history x turning point that makes him change.
After his Fandom Abandons him (represented by Lee) it breaks his heart. He truly stops taking his medicine at that point. And that leads us to the end, where he gives himself over to Joker.
"Idol" Joker is Arthur trying to capitalize on his manifested Joker persona to fulfill the needs of Arthur thru narcissistic supply. Arthur medicated regrets his decisions as Joker and realize he rode the way to fulfill intimacy needs.
When he realizes that NOBODY Cares for Arthur...He BECOMES FULL Joker. A version of Joker equivalent to Heaths fully actualized Joker who is Loyal to no one at all.
The 1st movie was meta.
The end about people deciding what's funny and not, is Todd shitting on the media because they critically rejected War Dogs and said it was inappropriate.
When Arthur shoots Deniro, Deniro represents the media.
This film is like a Stanley Kubrick film that uses Jungian psychology to have a superficial film and an entire secondary subliminal "shadow" film. Hints the beginning animated sequence. The 1st layer is the ultimate FU to the media and everybody who hijacked the film for their purpose. Just like the fans hijacked the Joker for their purpose in the film. The shadow film is how these dynamics push Arthur into full Joker. Meta speaking, Joker represents the director. The director goes full Joker when he made this film. Because it's completely selfish. Not for the gratification of others at all with no form of people pleasing. Art, for the directors therapy.
Laughed out loud at Jeff's limerick, well done. Didn't like the first one, skipping this, but boy am I fascinated at the wreckage.
With Podcasters there's always that Danger/
When reviewing a sequel that's stranger/
So pardonnez- moi/
This pods a folie a trois/
A hollow reverb echo chamber.
i listened for what the fans were saying when he regained his hearing after the explosion and they were bragging about doing the bomb
I’ve been listening too you guys for years. I have to get into the habit of watching you more. Keep up the amazing work!!
.
.
.
.
I expected the sex scene to become something similar to the MacGruber cemetery scene and I just started cackling by myself.
Predictable reaction that's similar to many others. There's much more to the film than y'all make it out to be. I love the first one and like this one. I don't think Todd Phillips hates me. Ridiculous. He's made a challenging film that in fairness probably should have been marketed differently. Maybe it should've been called Arthur Fleck - Me and My Shadow. That would've prepared people more for what they were getting into. It reminded me of some hard-hitting downer films from the 70s.
35:24 Have fun in November when he wins
I didn’t know you guys where on RUclips 😱😱 used to listen to you guys oh I don’t know 2015
Great review and a limerick for the ages! 👏
I honestly could’ve written a better sequel. Absolutely.
You will be able to see a WB animated film in theaters again when the looney tunes movie The Day the Earth Blew Up with Daffy Duck and Porky Pig comes out.
That limerick was a banger!
What a Limerick!
Nicely done Jeff 😂
Enjoy hearing your discussions as always! Cheers guys.
I liked it more than the first, but storytelling sucks......
I love the video
The movie is a VIBE
From my standpoint the cinematography explains so much more. For example, you mentioned the songs not following the musicals structure. Each song is giving the viewer an understanding of their obsessions with each other. The songs and visuals or shots of their faces and lighting to convey his decent into insanity where he embodies joker.
He can sing. We know gaga can sing. I love how stylistically the movie managed to not break the integrity of the dark realistic character imaginings by two characters who don’t sing. It was so important to me to hear their voices crack and slowly, their voices are backed by orchestra’s and a proper musical number demonstrating again, their insanity and Arthur’s loss of control over his own body.
There are so many other things that highlight the cult classic status it will become.
Pretty sure it’s a musical that’s not actually a musical. Meta af
I didn’t know the first joker became a symbol for incel communities which sucks because I see a well done sequel. There’s mention on no proper care for mental health, something that’s a growing problem now. It’s the mainline and only way to really see the film. It’s through the lens of a man who had an abusive mother who triggered his DID or multiple personality disorder. DID isn’t studied enough and the commentary on men’s mental health should be talked about too.
I really liked it so... but yeah. But I walked in expecting a musical. My friend didnt and he did not enjoy it
I liked every moment of this movie.
You a're both clueless.
I loved it. Then again, I don't give a shit about adolescent oriented comic book movies.
Depressing crumb.
Haha hardcore feminist strikes again for wanting the female character “to do more” and this week it’s Catherine Keener. It came near the end but I always knew his complaint was inevitable 😆 🙄
You guys literally live in a country where some worship Trump and you have a hard time beleiving that some parts of society would totally take the wrong message from the actions of Arthur and run with it? ok.
I agree with Dave in that the aftermath of the first being a media and social circus is 100% accurate.
Difference is deep down Arthur isn't an evil person.
I loved both the first and 2nd film, this will be the next Fight Club and apprciated in 5-10 years.
If by "you", you mean loser fanboys of the Joker, then absolutely. Fortunately, I'm not in that demographic and actually appreciate this film.
Well, that's an opinion. I do think that's what Todd Phillips had in mind.😂
Unfortunately, not everyone who enjoyed the first Joker or liked the character's portrayal from the first movie was an incel. This constant fear that the joker films would be some sort of national anthem for social rejects is soo overated.🙄
People bought tickets to watch the rise of the Joker not some pathetic dude be miserable for 2+ hours.🤦🏿♂️
Agree 100 percent. It's Arthur's story,clear and simple. From the beginning to the end. Phillips stated that 5 years ago.
We found the biden supporter
@jonnyshanon2103 Well then it should have been called Arthur.
You're making a lot of assumptions, aren't you? Always smart to assume a fanbase is a monolith of freaks just because you don't agree with them. To be clear, I thought the first one was okay, wouldn't call myself a fan though
Your headline is unoriginal. I assume your take is, too.
I expected a film review, but unfortunately received leftwing sociopathy.
From my standpoint the cinematography explains so much more. For example, you mentioned the songs not following the musicals structure. Each song is giving the viewer an understanding of their obsessions with each other. The songs and visuals or shots of their faces and lighting to convey his decent into insanity where he embodies joker.
He can sing. We know gaga can sing. I love how stylistically the movie managed to not break the integrity of the dark realistic character imaginings by two characters who don’t sing. It was so important to me to hear their voices crack and slowly, their voices are backed by orchestra’s and a proper musical number demonstrating again, their insanity and Arthur’s loss of control over his own body.
There are so many other things that highlight the cult classic status it will become.
Pretty sure it’s a musical that’s not actually a musical. Meta af