Early 78rpm Stereo with Stokowski & Elgar - Barry Fox explains
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- Back in the mid-1980s, two Californian record collectors (Brad Kay and Steven Lasker) discovered that certain 78rpm pressings of the same recording didn't sound absolutely identical. It seemed that in some cases, recording engineers played safe by having two turntables running in the studio, each with its own microphone, one being a back-up to the other. After much experimenting, it was discovered that by synchronising one disc with the other, a form of "binaural" sound was produced. All this was explained by audio journalist Barry Fox in the Radio 3 "CD Review" programme heard here in which "binaural" examples were conducted by Stokowski and Elgar. Nothing ever came of these experiments commercially, though the "Elgar in Stereo" example was eventually issued on a Naxos CD. Also uploaded here are some other 78rpm "binaural" examples, including Koussevitzky and the Boston SO in part of Tchaikovsky's "Pathetique" Symphony and Goossens and the Cincinnati Orchestra in Massenet's "Le Cid."
Brad Kay here. Steven Lasker and I discovered "Accidental Stereo" with Duke Ellington on April Fools' Day, 1984. I did most of the original work on these "Accidental Stereo" recordings in '84 and '85. I think I explained everything pretty well back then, on this program, in 1985. But to recap:
This all was way before computers and wav files. All I had then were the original 78s, a pitch-adjustable turntable, a reel-to-reel tape recorder, a high-quality cassette machine, and my two ears. The records were synchronized by playing one channel on the tape machine, the "anchor"; and while listening through headphones, matching it with the other channel on the turntable, the "adjustable." All recorded to a master cassette.
I would do as many passes as necessary to get a whole side down in perfect synch, then edit it together. Yes, it was tricky to do, but not as difficult as you might think. There was a distinctly audible "window" in which the two separate sides would fall into synch, with no apparent phasing problem and considerable leeway for error. As long as I could "see" the stereo picture in my mind, I knew it would be okay.
Today, with software like "Audacity," and other digital help, this process is a damned snap! No need to re-invent the wheel!
I'm still grateful to Barry Fox for this BBC expose! Hope you're doing well, Barry!
BTW, Crazy about the visuals, of Elgar, Stokowski, Toscanini and all, especially of Venice, whenever I'm on! Although the Venice Canal district so lovingly presented is NOT where I live!
Hi Brad ... I see I uploaded this 3 years ago and as to the visuals I'd probably do them differently today! ...See if you can find another "accidental stereo" upload here, of the "Ride of the Valkyries" with the All-American Youth Orchestra under Stokowski from 1941. The now-defunct Stokowski Society wanted to licence some of those 1940s Columbia recordings for CD release and when the Sony engineer searched the archive, he found that all the Columbia recordings of the time had been done on 33.1/3rd lacquers and in pairs. Columbia dubbed them onto 78s for commercial release but the pairs of lacquers were marked "A" and "B" respectively.
The Sony engineer had a feeling that there were two turntables in the control room, one a safety back-up to the other, with two microphones side-by-side in the studio. He experimented by synchronizing the "A" lacquer with the "B" one of the Wagner piece and you can hear the results here. See if you think it is "accidental stereo" too. Nothing more came of it however, as it took ages to synchronize just 4 minutes, so the studio costs would have been prohibitive. It seems that all the Columbias were recorded this way in the 1940s, notably all the Stravinsky / New York Philharmonic 78s. Now there's food for thought!
I've listened both to the "Ride" and the "Scherzo from Midsummer Nights' Dream," and am about ninety per cent sure they are NOT "Accidental Stereo."
Several times in "R of the V" I can hear tell-tale phase shifting, which always reveals identical discs. So, in this case, the stereo effect is the result of shifting synchronization, and NOT genuine left and right channels.
There ARE moments when the stereo seems real, but they are fleeting. I cannot say honestly, "This oboe is placed HERE; the strings are over THERE, the percussion is consistently on the right." The instruments don't stay put.
I devised a fool-proof "Acid Test" to determine whether a given set of discs is a stereo pair or not. First, do all your listening with HEADPHONES. Second, you have to make sure the two discs sound as EXACTLY ALIKE - as similar to each other - as possible. Match them precisely for gain and equalization. Then they can easily be checked for stereo.
If they are the same recording, there will be pronounced phase shifting as they go in and out of synch. But if the two discs are really different channels, there will be NO phase shifting, and instead, a stereo image will pop up. This effect is STARTLING! You can't miss it! Distinct audio landmarks will emerge, that stay fixed in the overall image when the synch is true, then start to "red shift" when the synch falls out.
All I had to work with in the '80s was my two ears and magnetic tape. It all should be much easier with today's gear. It's still best to listen with headphones, whatever your synching method is. They will reveal the truth quickly enough!
Thanks for taking the time to listen. There was indeed a difference of opinion in Sony when these "A" and "B" lacquers were discovered, with some being convinced they were quasi-binaural and others being equally convinced they were not. Exactly the same thing happened with your own discoveries, as you'll doubtless remember, and as can be heard in an upload here entitled "ARSC stereo controversy." It was at this symposium that Keith Hardwicke of EMI stated quite emphatically that "there is no truth whatever in this Californian idea that 1 and 1A were made from different microphones," citing an engineer at the time when 78s were being made who told him as much. Barry Fox mentioned this in his radio broadcast but even so, the 'Columbia' Wagner and Mendelssohn AAYO items sound far better, and much cleaner, from 33.1/3rd lacquers than they ever did from the old dubbed 78s, even without being 'accidental stereo'!
AGAIN, it should be a snap to tell if the two discs are stereo or not. Do as I outlined above, and you will get a positive answer, yes or no. This actually is the easy part with Accidental Stereo, when you have the original discs. It WASN’T so easy, judging by the finished product, but I certainly could hear the phase shifting, and that’s a dead giveaway.
The only other possibility is if Columbia used THREE mikes, with one feeding both lathes, plus an independent mike on each - Left: A+C; Right: B+C. Then you would get true stereo AND phase shifting. But that is a slim chance. I have actually seen a pair of “A” and “B” lacquers made by Columbia in the ‘40s, and those WERE identical. If only I could get my hands on the originals I could tell you in an instant.
I should have checked the Cala sleeve-note to their CD (CACD0549) that includes the All-American Youth Orchestra "Ride of the Valkyries". It says that the pairs of lacquers were labelled "Left" and "Right", not "A" and "B" as I'd mis-remembered! ... It was this labelling that caused the Sony engineer to experiment in synchronizing the lacquer pairs simultaneously. Although it was generally accepted that there were two turntables running at the same time, "Left" and "Right" respectively, each producing its own lacquer, there was no unanimous agreement as to whether each had its own microphone feed as well. Some in Sony felt sure that was the case, and thought they heard a degree of separation, but others felt it was just one mike feeding both turntables. It's all academic now anyway, as I believe the transferring equipment was dismantled soon afterwards and the lacquers were sent off to some distant storage depot. Even so, whatever the actual circumstances, "The Ride" still sounds pretty good for its age!
I think this is the coolest thing I've ever seen! The thing that I find really interesting is even though the high frequency response is not great, with the stereo recordings, it's not nearly as noticeable. I think these sound great. They were genius and didn't realize it. Thank you for sharing this! Fantastic.
Having listened through headphones, I can firmly say there is real separation here. So what are we waiting for? Let's get these released!
Totally ingenious discovery. With modern digital technology, sync is no problem, and can be found even visually!
Without a doubt this discovery is LEGIT.
why wouldn't someone do this experiment now with digital sync? we could solve this issue definitively and know for sure if it's just 2 mono recordings slightly off sync.
It might be possible to get a stereo recording from the early cylinder era when each cylinder had to be recorded from its own acoustic horn - before they figured out how to duplicate them. Of course you would have to find two from the same session and correct for the speed of the machines. The imaging would be strange to be sure since the recording horns were in a cluster with the instruments and performers likewise arranged.
I was thinking the same thing!
@@luvmyrecords I have three different 33-1/3 rpm transcriptions of Artur Nikisch's 1913 recording of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. These were made by different LP companies using different masters recorded from different positions in the venue. There would be problems synchronizing speeds (each is at a slightly different pitch) and fixing flutter problems, not to mention filtering out surface noise, that could be fixed digitally. An interesting project for the future . . .
The earliest broadcasts of music were in stereo-- the Paris Opera had phone lines set up to go to nearby apartments, where people listened to left and right channels on separate phones.
This is the coolest thing ever. I can imagine a lot of work goes into syncing the audio together since no two 78rpm recorders around this time period would run at the exact same speed.
I would love to hear Paul Whiteman's 1932 recording of Ferde Grofe's 'Grand Canyon Suite' in stereo! It's the best recording of the work (IMHO) because the solo instruments (i.e., the violin and woodblocks in 'On the Trail') have more immediate presence. It would also be great if Whiteman's 1928 recording of Gershwin's 'Concerto in F' were in stereo!
I got goosebumps. Thank you so much.
Incredible Aquarium (S.Saens) - Very rare performance ! +++++
I put the headphones on for this! "Accidental stereo?" Great!
I am convinced. I would certainly be in the market for remastered early stereo recordings.
+Wilson Laidlaw - ME TOO! :)
I wrote to Walfredo Toscanini sometime in the early '90s about this very thing when I learned of the Red and Blue networks NBC broadcast s. Of coursse, I never received a response then but the technology has advanced to the point that RCA could reissue many, if not most, of the 1930s and 1940s recordings in stereo. A guy can dream....
I remember hearing about this 30 years ago, but today's technology would make it easy to get far better results. Instead of his primitive trial and error method with reel to reels and cassettes, you could transfer both discs into a DAW and synchronize them far more accurately.
Actually, Alan D. Blumlein, while working for EMI in the late 1930s(just after EMI was formed by merging Columbia Graphophone Ltd. with The Gramophone Co. Ltd.[owner of the HMV trademark]) was experimenting with the modern 45/45 stereo cutting head design but the technology was too far ahead of its time and the results were poor due to the nature of available material(shellac discs). It was Blumlein's idea which would be adopted as the standard method for cutting stereo phonograph recordings when vinyl became available for the purpose of pressing records.
He was actually working on stereo back in 1931. His patent application for it was accepted in 1933 (pn:394,325). But, yes, the 45-45 cutting thing was his too.
Thankyou so much for such an informative video. I am currently researching your findings as a great many of the original recordings were transcribed onto vinyl!!!!
Walt Disney’s Fantasia of 1940 was recorded in stereo.
ALSO 1941'S "ORCHESTRA WIVES" AND 1942'S "SUN VALLEY SERANADE",,,GREAT GLEN MILLER MUSIC IN BOTH...THERE IS A CONDENSATION OF THIS MUSIC ON YOU TUBE....
@@jimrick6632 * "Serenade" and "Glenn"
While not originally recorded in stereo, today it is possible to upmix many early mono recordings to stereo. Check out this example of a 1891 Edison cylinder recording upmixed to stereo: ruclips.net/video/OJYK5ZI0XiM/видео.html, and this 1904 mono recording upmixed to stereo: ruclips.net/video/kVN_hS9PEU8/видео.html.
Great reporting. I have thought about this possibility for years, but with the older wax cylinders which in the early days of recordings, duplication was achieved by placing multiple cutting machines around the musicians and starting them at the same time. There are photographs online depicting this practice. I thought, if you could find recordings from the same run through, that were on machines placed far enough apart, there would be a possible stereo match. This practice, ended early on, but it widens the net of possible historic stereo possibilities.
And as a professional classical musician, I for one would love to hear these recordings, in stereo or mono.
At beginning of cylinder commercal recordings every cylinder was an original from one or another phonograph in studio. The 1950s book THE FABULOUS PHONOGRSPH describes in detail.
Interesting 🤔. So why did they stop 🛑 ???
I know that BMG did release the two Ellington medleys on CD a few years after the rediscovery so they must have believed in that much. As for the rest-crickets. I have the two Bell Labs Stokowski LPs and the Kay/Lasker Ellington LP and they both sound astounding.
All I can say is WOW!
This is what you call accidental stereo.Two disc were made at the same orchestra .One was a back up,but, both were recorded at the same time.It isn't like early stereo film ,back in 53 ,after Cinerama ,in which the tracks were remix for stereo affect,in which the movie was recorded in mono.That was pseudo stereo affects.This is accidental stereo.
If the early Toscanini/NBC broadcasts and recordings could be processed in this binaural way, what a treasure that would be! Those performances are so musically superb but acoustically dismal, save a few, probably by accident. Spoken by a Toscanini fan.
I second that if two cylinders from a multiple recording machine session could be located, we could have stereo as early as 1890! I actually still make cylinder records, (and the wax formula, and cast the masters.) and onetime recorded a concert with two cylinder phonographs, to not have a gap, and tried to overlap 15 seconds on each one, alas I never got to even listen to the cylinders from these concerts, they are lost somewhere. What I wanted to do, is of course edit the cylinders together, on tape and the intro and outro of each cylinder would be true stereo, one part on left and the other on the right. I will try it again, I hope to find some musicians willing to try these experiments, of recording on two cylinder phonographs. I own an original acoustical studio recorder, they are very rare, and most of them have to be restored to working condition. Columbia Graphophone Company about 1904 had a machine that could record 3 tracks on a 14" long 5" diameter cylinder. Only a few cylinders exist for this Multiplex Grand, and the one transcribed, unfortunately was mono, however they must have done some test recordings at Columbia in 3d stereo, with left, middle and right channels, as they advertised the machine to be capable to do so. Only 2 machines were ever sold, as they were $1000.00. I know how the record collectors are stodgy and do not welcome new information regarding the early recording industry. What I hear from your video is true stereo, certainly.
I am so totally willing to help you with audio projects like this! I am a sound engineer and designer that owns a small record label, CBTTF Records. I have always been fascinated by the cylinder recordings, and even bought a few win the intention making my own playback device someday. We should talk.
A good description of this Columbia machine is in book "FROM TINFOIL TO STEREO" (circa 1960). Apart from this a terrorism machines was marketed. It uses 2 spirals played by 2 toneharms from start go end. (like novelty records where a differnt tune might be heardvat each playing.
In USA there were called "mystery tune records" In UK called "puzzlebplatters". The latesT Colonel demonstrates on here onnUtube.
I taped a lot of concerts from a soundboard with music on left, vocal on right. I copied the tape and played both back at the same time but reversed the outputs so music and vocal played on both sides and get nice mono. But soon as you slow down one player, by a hair, the stereo effect is real effective. If you get it just right it sounds perfect stereo and not simulation.
Apart from recordings at a Paris fair in 1888 there was a demonstration of telephone transmission of music by telephone where left & right heard served by separate microphones. The equipment was preserved & later a Paris music hall e offered A stereo telephone service for subscribers. NOTE that in Europe there were many dedicsted services starting from 1899 like thevBudapest. Telephone Hetmando that for most par were operated like radio stations tho London J Paris each had one where U could call an operator who could connect listener to different theaters or concert halls or church services on request.
Note also
in late 1920s there were stereo radio broadcasts where left J right were broadcast on different AM stations but sincevsuch cost sponsors double. Air time not common.
In late 1950s when stereo records were starting there were some network TV radio demos where one channel telecast and other channel on radio. K I recall episode of Ed Sullivan where done. Also WQCR had a few programs where on channel on FM & other AM. Real stereo FM ended these after 1962. KThese were novelties and poor as FM / AM fidelity differences created weird effects though some stations reduced FM range to AM standards to compensate..
Most impressive not only with the stereo effect but with the wide frequency response on the opening Stokowski tracks.Does anyone nknow how this was acheived and equipment used?
Brian Gallagher it had to be done using condenser microphones as the ribbon type was not yet in use.
Agree with Barry re the first stereo recording at Bell and these 'accidental' stereo recordings quite a bit earlier. Blumlein's work in 1933 was the first stereo recording on a playable disc - records as we know it. Plus his complete theories for stereo from mic to record to playback that we use today. See more at:
ruclips.net/video/KD3HBbtN9ak/видео.html
This!!!
I have experimented with synchronizing Edison Diamond Disc Records with their Edison Blue Amberol Cylinder Records counterparts it is very hard to do but once it's done you get a very nice reverb effect if they are from the same take.
I WANT THESE RECORDINGS!!!! Really.
I thought that the Bell Labs recordings were the earliest, too. I can hear the Carnival of Animals in stereo, and this is from 1929? Hoo boy.
1931-32 rather than 1929, despite what the narrator says. The later dates are confirmed by the Philadelphia Orchestra's website.
Well people rage about how the two channels can't be in sync, but isn't there some kind of program that can synchronize them based on sounds shared between the channels?
Sure. loading into a Digital Audio Workstation would allow the use of an auto synching plugin rather than the cumbersome analog kludge described here.
Of COURSE there is. Once the guy started talking about recording onto reel to reel, copying that to a lowly cassette, and then transferring said cassette to another reel only to splice it for godsakes (lol), I figured that must be from the 80s or so. By the 90s, major studios had the ability to do all this digitally. By the mid-90s, the average Joe Consumer had the same ability to do it at home on the computer. Fascinating stuff, but the decades old technology being used in this video is cringe to watch as manipulating music in this regard has become far easier and more exact using digital technology.
There is somewhere on RUclips a short recording in stereo from 1903. Very lo-fi, of course.
In a sense, there are tons of stereo records from the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th. For years, the way to make many cylinders of recorded music to sell was as follows:
1. Put many phonographs before the performers, all recording the same performance. Say you used ten phonographs and these produced records 1-10.
2. Play each of those records a limited number of times into duplicating phonographs, making second-generation records. Say you did this ten times with each original, to keep from wearing it out any further. Say record 1 was used to make copies 11-20, record 2 was used to make copies 21-30, and so on, with record 10 the source of copies 101-110.
3. Have the performers perform all over again, repeating the process.
4. Sell all those originals and copies of the various performances.
5. Another way to do step 2 is to play one record from step 1 while several duplicating phonographs (not just one) record the output.
As you can see, step 1 involves capturing the sound through 10 horns, each in a different place from all the others. The result is more than stereo. If we could find all ten and synchronize them, we'd have a ten-channel record of a performance from, say, 1890.
A long time ago, a recording engineer that I knew, told me about this, he had discovered this by accident, just like these guys did...
i collect early audio going back as far as wax cylinders of the 1890s
these early cylinders couln't be reproduced so a piece had to be played over and over to get the biggest amount of records they would use multiple phonographs sometimes up to 30 in one session a wall of phonograps
it occured to me that here was a possability of a stereo recording
if you are lucky enough to find two cylinders from the same take than synchronising them could produce true stereo
there are hoever drawbacks to this if the two cyl are from two phonographs next to eachother than the effect will not be there however if the two cylinders are from oposite sides of the wall of phonographs than the potencial is definitly there
its sadly very hard to find out if cylinders are from the same take another thing is that different machines might had run at different speeds
the best way to find out is to go to cylinders of companies that made many recordings like f.i. the pathe company or the columbia phonograph also i will have to look for less populair pieces the chance of many takes goes down in those
using a second machine was pretty common from 1902 onwards(records could be reproduced by then) the wax system was expensive so having a backup was paramount its now beeing said that some of the edison cylinder recordings listed as different takes might acctualy be 2 recordings of the same take the same goes for early acoustic victor recordings as well as numerous recordings of other companies
so stereo might go back to the dawn of the recording industry
I would like to know how the two separate recordings are synchronized exactly - and I mean just that. If you take a frequency of, say, 1000c.p.s. that would need an incredible accuracy. The point is, though, that if that was not attained - you would get phase shift and therefore cancellation effects etc, etc as we know, and that would spread to lower frequencies if there was any further delay or advance. So, just how does one get this incredible accuracy? I`m sure it is possible. I`m all for it. I believe live concerts were telephoned from concert halls in the nineteenth century with the two carbon microphones feeding separately the left and right ear pieces in the houses. As the former were on each side of the stage, presumably this was stereo done intentionally!!
Bev, you ask penetrating and worthy questions. I've heard of those 19th century "stereo" concerts, which must have been fascinating to the listeners. It actually would have sounded pretty good, with a receiver at each ear.
As to the synchronizations, see my notes exchanged with Adam28xx at the top of the page. When the two discs are approaching synch, a "window" forms, in which there is a discernible stereo image. This window is very flexible and tenacious, and it will hold even if your speed goes slightly off.
It's not, in other words, an absolute, requiring pin-point accuracy, that will disappear when it goes a fraction out of synch. It's strange, but true! Phase shifting and cancellation occur when you are synching two IDENTICAL discs. But not stereo channels.
I don't understand why they don't just record it onto a .WAV file of a computer, and then slide the Left and Right channels until they match up reasonably well.
Because I first did these synchronizations in 1985, when computers, .WAV files and very likely YOU were hardly a gleam in your daddy's eye!
This was done in 1984, before anyone knew what a DAW was.
Personally, even if it's not totally perfect stereo, it is a way to reinforce perforrmances that might be discounted becuase they are "only" monoaural.
What the heck? Time is wasting. Some idiot is about to throw away another LEFT or RIGHT channel and losing a gem forever.
I've never been a great fan of Elgar. Stereo or not I like this Elgar, much richer and boyant. Perhaps sync by ear gave vital extra space in these seeeming stereo.
Did you notice that the "stereo" recordings sounded much better? The human brain is very good at rejecting noise both visually and aurally . I have macular edema and what I see out of each eye individually is much worse than what I see out of both eyes together. Next time you are in a crowd plug one ear and try to make out an individual conversation it works much better using two ears .
Is there any progress on this item?
There has been no recent progress, as far as I know, but four years ago Pristine Audio released a CD entitled "Accidental Stereo" featuring some of the recordings heard in this radio programme. You'll find it on the Pristine Classical website (PASC 422) but for some inexplicable reason, Brad Kay's pioneering efforts are not acknowledged, with other collectors being listed as supplying the source material.
It is unfortunate that there is no development here, it seems to me that this is historically extremely interesting!
But stereo has nothing to do with music. Mono in good balance is the perfect replay system.
The perfect replay system for...? certainly not in today's sophisticated audio expectations. And the mere fact that the 'backup' imitates a form of binaural recording makes the availability of these recordings even more amazing. Bah humbug.
Mono is perfect for a solo voice or a solo SMALL instrument. Even a piano sounds unrealistic in mono, unless you have a speaker as big as a piano. Yes, stereo with speakers is a "trick" - but a very good one.
Stereo is to mono like color is to black and white.