Hi David, I have just received my new Gen 4 35L. I ordered a HED plate and a jacket with it. I am in Aus and my unit is 10 amp 220-240 volt domestic plug. I filled it with 20 litres of water and played firstly with the raw temp controller and the element power and pump valve opening to see how close I could get to a satisfactory mash….At best it was a close average but for those who may choose this method I found dropping the element power right down to around 20% help to stabilise temps. I then turned the pid on and set the standard settings. I operated the unit beginning at 40 degrees and using increments of 10 degrees until I reached mash out of 77. My final settings were Pump 100% Heat 100% P value 0.424 I value 0.0024 D value 0.000 This was with jacket installed along with the Heat Exchanger Dish and with 20 litres of water. At these settings I was getting and overshoot on the high side of 0.1 of a degree and nothing under the set temp at all. If this is how it will function with grain during a mash I will be very happy. At the end of the adjustments I turned to PID off and set the temp to 102 for the boil. I measured an average temp rise rate of 1 degree every 50 seconds. Needless to say I am very happy with the results and I thank you for the informative video. I can’t wait now to use it in anger with 5 kg of grain.🍻🍺😃👍
Hi David. I am a control systems engineer by profession and I would like to clarify some minor things you said. First of the I gain, or the integral gain, does not add speed to the system. In fact it does the opposite, it will add a phase delay and is a cause (if not well tuned) for overshoot. One uses the integral gain in order to eliminate steady state deviations (read deviations for when you are close to the desired setpoint/temperature). Tuning the integral effect too large would lead to overshoot and oscillatory response (which is why it is nice to keep the gain small). Also if you are interested in a more convenient algorithm for tuning a PID controller I would recommend Ziegler-Nichols method. It is not a tough read and quite intuitive even for the average Joe. I'm sure you could find some article or information about the method online. Anyway thank you for a nice video and happy brewing. PS: the difference in grid voltage and frequency does not affect how the system behaves and should be tuned.
Many thanks for your thoughts. This is for sure not my area, so I went by information supplied by Kegland. As I understood it though, these areas can differ within such systems. I found conflicting information at first online, so then went to Kegland for assistance for this video.
@DavidHeathHomebrew How you tube the PID differs from systems. And what assumptions are done when modelling the system (most assume linear systems as PID can guarantee exponential stability for such systems). Most systems are not linear and therefore the tuning is not optimal for all systems, and one has to choose between trade offs (aggressive-, robust-, under damped-, over damped control and etc) in the controller. There are vast amounts of algorithms or methods in how to tune the linear PID, and the most important part at the end of the day is to get a response you are happy with. Also the only thing one actually would change is the transient (how the controller responds when the input reference signal/temperature is changed until it settles at a set value) response of the controller (unless you go too aggressive and make the system response unstable), as the steady state response will be the same for all systems. And the PID will help you choose how fast or slow you want the transient response to be, how much oscillations there will be, and how much of an overshoot there will be (depends mostly on the integral gain). And this is flavour settings depending on the brewer and how one would want the system to behave. If I could have changed one thing with the system it would be to add integral gain anti-wind up. This would prevent the integral gain to accumulate up too much error and reduce the overshoot amount by a lot. It would also not be difficult to implement for Kegland.
David, thank you for your very informative video. I knew nothing about how PID worked until I watched it. I have had a couple of test runs on my new 65 Lt BrewZilla GEN 4. I live in Brisbane Australia. I used the following settings. Power voltage 230-240 Volts out of a 15 Amp socket. Neoprene jacket on the BZ. Lid on Power 100% (3,500 watts) until strike temp (70C) reached and stabilised. Pump always running at 100%. Test Water Volume was for a 2-keg batch, based on a Brewfather recipe. 33.7 Lt mash volume of water tested (sparge excluded). 70 C was the Target strike temp set for mash in. P: 0.460 I: 0.0018 D: 0.0 Allowed Sensor Temp Diff. set on BZ at 1 C I used the new RAPT Bluetooth Thermometer bonded to the BZ and selected it as the sensor controlling the PID. The probe was in the centre of the mash vessel and the tip -placed about 6 cm below the water surface. The starting water temp was 25.1 C. Ambient air temp was 25.0 C. The test started and the temp increased at a good rate to 65 C after 30 minutes. This was when the PID settings started to take effect. The RAPT probe was at 65 C but the BZ built-in sensor near the elements has reached 71.1 C. The set 1 C Sensor Temp Diff was cycling off the power for short periods until the BZ sensor dropped below 71 C. The RAPT sensor temp continued to steadily increase. It took another 27 minutes for the RAPT probe to register 70.0 C. Most of this time was used in raising the temp from 69.2 C to 70.0 C when the PID control was most active. There was no temp overshoot. The maximum temp registered on the RAPT probe was 70.1 C and stabilised between 69.9 and 70.0 C. I then reduced the power setting to 40% (1,400 watts) with the pump running at 100% for the next 40 minutes. Both temp probes remained very stable. The RAPT probe remained steady between 69.9 and 69.8 C. The in-built BZ probe stayed between 70.5 and 70.1 C. There was very little power cycling at this power setting. I will set up a simple 2 step profile in RAPT to activate these settings the night before so I can delay the heating start to achieve strike temp early morning on brew day.
I did the test with 20L of water P: 0.425 I: 0.0023 Allowed sensor diff: 8 C I created a 2 step mash test profile 50C > 65C > 77C Ramp up times 20C to 50C: 18min 50C to 65C: 11min 65C to 77C: 11min 77C to Boil: ~20min 35L Gen4 Voltage: 240V I didn't have any temperature overshoot. I guess I could increase the sensor diff to 10C without problems. For boiling, I turned off the PID. About 2-3C to reach target temperature is when you see slow increases in temperature. Need to be patient here and let the controller do its thing 😅. Overall, my test was successful. Now, I have to compare with a real brew. 🤞 Thanks for the video. It's been a great starting point to fine tune the BZ PID. Cheers
Wort boiling temps: 213.8-214.1 5 gallons PID P: 0.680 PID I: 0.0019 PID D: 0.0000 ^^ will comment on this when I calculate the mash temp. It’s such a screwy process, but thank you for posting your video!!
Thanks David your videos gives me hope that I can eventually get good beer out of homebrewing. just bought the brewzilla gen4 and did my first batch yesterday and noticed that the step mash was over shooting by a few degrees. I eventually managed to control this after noticing that you could adjust the heater power manually. The PID is a very interesting concept and I thought the idea of sharing a spread sheet with different settings for the 35l and 65 is a great idea. Has anyone started? it would be great for a beginner like me!! thanks
I had interesting results when I was trying to play around with the PID settings on my 35L Gen 4. Setup: Equipment: Brewzilla Gen 4 Malt pipe: Inserted Jacket: Yes Lid: Yes Pump: 100% Heating: 2400W (100%) Water: 10L Observations: As the target temp went up, I needed to change the PID settings. Ambient was around 29c. -> To go to 40, I put it at (0.28,0.0020) and it overshot by 0.5 degree before coming back to 40. -> To go to 50, I changed this to (0.18, 0.0020) and it struggled to reach 50, always hovering around 49.7. -> Changed target temp to 60 and setting to (0.26, 0.0020) and again, same thing. Hovered around 59.6. -> Changed the target temp to 65 and setting to (0.40, 0.0020) and this now overshot by 0.5c -> Changed the target temp to 70 and setting to (0.36, 0.0020) and now, again, it struggled to reach 70, hovering around 69.7c. -> Turned off PID and changed target temp to 74.5. Overshot by 1.5c. In all, I am not really sure what to make of this. I want to try profiles but am not worried about target temp never being reached and hence the step not starting / stopping. Will probably try a few more times and see what happens. Cheers!
Like Ian Probert, I'm in SEQ Australia, and like Ian I got a similar result. power voltage 230-240 Volts out of a 15 Amp socket. No jacket on the BZ. Lid on Power 100% (3,500 watts) until strike temp (71C) reached and stabilised. Pump always running at 100%. Test Water Volume was for a 2-keg batch. 30 Lt mash volume of water tested (sparge excluded). 71 C was the Target strike temp set for mash in. P: 0.460 I: 0.0010 D: 0.0 I used a DMM with temp probe. The probe was in the centre of the mash vessel and the tip -placed about 4cm below the water surface. The starting water temp was 24 C. on the probe and 19C. on the BZ Ambient air temp was 19C. The following are reading on both the probe and BZ at the times stated: 10 min. Probe 38-BZ38.5 15 min. Probe 47-BZ 47 20min. Probe 55- BZ 55.1 25 min. Probe 64- BZ 63.5 30 min. Probe72- BZ 70.3 then after a few more min to settle the Probe rose to 74 and the BZ hung around at 70.9 Given that my results were so similar to Ian's, I stopped there.
Hi David and thanks for all your educational videos. I'm into my fourth brewday (Sweden) soon with BZ 30l Gen4.1, full recipe 220V I intend to use my Rapt thermometer in conjunction with the bottom probe as you've shown. Q: Is it possible to run both PI(D) and the probe/rapt at the same time or does one ovverride the other? Best Regards Martin Hiller
Fantastic primer on this. Thank you for this. As for your idea on sharing settings, perhaps we should have a shared google sheet or some such that will make it more structured input so that we can even have rollups etc that might be possible later? Could perhaps facilitate this both there and through the facebook group as well.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew With the Rapt Temp controller my temperature and cooling always overshoots with 2.5 Degrees Celsius. A Brewtools 500W heating element in a F40 with a glycol cooling system is what I'm using. Kegland does not have any documentation about PID.
I started by just using your final numbers but kept overshooting temp up to 2-4 degrees; had to watch this multiple times and still couldn't quite follow. Finally, I sat down and took notes to calibrate next time. Hopefully the next brew will be more stable.
@@theGrindcrusher I haven't tried it again yet but these are the notes I wrote down after careful listening: 20L Start P @ .480; start I @ .0020 40L Start P @ .680; start I @ .0010 P is core power control, go up for more I is extra power for speed, go down for more Try to dail-in P first and then I for fine tuning.
Do you think using the new-ish Heat Exchanger Dish changes these settings at all, and what power level you use when mashing with PID enabled (and these settings)? Been using a 65L Gen4 for a year and still struggling with acceptably stable mash temp stability and trying to find the magic combination for my 240V power. Thank you for making this video!!
Hi David, I have just bought the Rapt Temp controller aiming to use it for fermentation with my F40 conical and the BT 500w element. I am finding the element too strong for an F40 so I am hoping for the PID to reduce the power of the element to about 100W. my typical fermentation batch size is about 30L in a winter ambient temperature of about 4-8C. I will probably need to have a separate profile for the summer months when I expect about 20-28C (Amsterdam). do you have a recommendation as a starting point for the PID setting? and is the number representing the P translating into a power percentage of the total power of the heating source? thank you
Hi David, Many thanks for a great video. Just one thing, when i was testing mine, i noticed the power was always at 100% (P=0.58, I=0.0015, 20L water on 35L edition), even when just maintaining temp. It seems to switch on and off every few seconds. Am i doing something wrong?
Thanks for the great job you do! Just received my Brewzilla 65, and I am ready to start testing this. But i have a question. When you are saying "mashing volume", I assume that you count grains too? Like if I have a recipe that Brewfather tells to have 15L mash water 4.5 kg of grain and then 13L of sparge water for total of 21L batch, that would mean that I want to test a 20-22 L of "mashing volume" ?
Hello David. Great and usefull as allways. I have a doubt though. If i'm just brewing not destilling the "D" part of PID has to be set at 0.000? Mine is 0,750 by default. Does it affect my brewing? Thank you very much.
Thanks for the video David. Quick question (and apologies if I missed this in the video) - do you disable PID heating after sparging and bringing the wort up to a boil?
@@DavidHeathHomebrew Wow this is fairly important isn't it? I had to set my boil @ 103c with PID on to reach the boil, this explains it. PS I will post my observations below for all to see.
Thanks for the video, David. I'm still not clear. Is "P" the same as the manual percentage power level setting? If PID is turned on at the start of the heating process, does that mean that the water will take much longer to heat up? If so, then would you only enable PID once you are close to the target temperature? Also, once you enable the PID setting, does that ignore the manual heating percentage setting, or does the manual setting affect the PID setting? Thanks.
Hi John, PID when set well will allow for fast heating but you could enable it when you are within a short distance of temperature. Personally I switch it on for ramp up to mash temps and its fast. The P setting in PID is unique and it relates to the power allocated to the elements. I hope this helps 🍻🍻😎
Man, you just demistified PID tuning for me, very much appreciated! I've just finished my first two batches with the Gen4 35 liter, I'm very happy with the purchase. I have two questions: 1. If I use the PID function, do I still need to turn down the power to ~ 30% during the mash? 2. is there a delayed start function like in the older models? If yes, how do I access it's Prost and keep the videos coming;)
Great to hear 🍻🍻 1, No the PID will take over 2, Yes but you need to create in within a profile. Start with the delay you need, then the first mash step heating. I would say allow 30 mins for the heating, so your delay will be 30 mins short. I hope this helps, cheers 🍻🍻🍻
Hi David, thanks one again for educational video. I want to know what is your PID settings on 65L Brewzilla for one keg batch and for two keg batch because this is what I will be brewing.Thanks in advance.
Hi, right now I have only got as far as the one keg batch, my settings for that are in this video. You may need to tweak further though. I suggest doing the test and seeing.
Good to know, I struggled keeping a consistent boil when it was at the default 3.5 hysteresis. If set to 0 I assume the heating element is constantly switching on and off in order to maintain the same temp. Hope that doesn’t burn out the heating element. It would be helpful to see a video of all the menu settings as the BrewZilla documentation doesn’t cover any of the settings.
This can be made with a profile in RAPT. The first step will need to be for 0C for the amount of time you want it to be before the Brewzilla starts preheating to the next temperature. A simple 2 step profile will work nicely.
How do you setup a delayed start? I don't see that as a step option in the RAPT portal. Can you only do that on the control panel? RAPT interface seems like it has a long way to go relative to setup, available profiles, sharing profiles, etc. It's the one thing that i'm most concerned about as I consider buying the Brewzilla GEN 4 instead of the Grainfather G30.
Hi, Its all there on the Rapt portal. Make a one step Brewzilla temp profile for your desired mash temp with a start time with the delay you want. Easy stuff 🍻
That’s what I thought and tried to do but I don’t see anywhere to enter a start time for the step that isn’t contingent on the previous step, an assigned duration or reaching a temperature. I see all the options under temp automation, etc. but nothing to select a time for it to start heating or for it to reach strike temp by a certain time. Maybe I’m missing something. FYI, by the way, all your videos are fantastic and I appreciate your quick response to questions.
thank you David, that helped a lot, do you have any advice on where I can look for the D-Derivative information or settings for the use of distillation? I can't seem to find much out there at all and there certainly isn't an easy explanation video like this one is for the proportional and integral settings
Hi Marko, I think Kegland might be able to tell you that but personally I do not know. You will need to dial it in anyway but maybe they can estimate it.
Hi David, Stuck between the choice of Grainfather G30 or Brewziller 35l Gen4, which would you personally recommend? Many thanks for you thoughts and great videos!
I would suggest the GEN 4 Brewzilla personally. The G30 is quite some years old now and is rather low tech compared. The GEN 4 Brewzillas are ahead in a number of key areas. This is probably the best comparison video series to watch:- ruclips.net/p/RDCMUCb3HYxTpCaVDeulH1mZGW1Q&playnext=1
@@DavidHeathHomebrew One more question, now you convinced me of the BZ Gen4, I am stuck deciding between the 35l or 65l… Planing batches between 20l and 25l, so in theory the 35l should suffice, but the 65l also allows for batches of this size. Any benefits going for the 65l even if I do not intend brewing more than 25l batches? Thanks again!
Hi, the 65L has more power, if you have the fuse for it. Having said this you can use boil extenders to increase the volume of both systems. ruclips.net/video/cT1jMkifqK8/видео.html
I would be interested to know what the error would be if you just had KP = 0.2 and ki/kd off. I'm guessing it would be about 80%. KP is used to improve transient response time and reduce the error, however using Kp alone can never eliminate the error. This is where ki is used. A small amount of integral gain is used to drive the plant the desired setpoint. Your ki gain is actually very large since it is inversely proportional to the integral time constant, ki = 1/Ti and I'm guessing you are changing Ti. The derivative term contributes damping to the system but is often neglected as it is sensitive to noise. It would be interesting to record the response and plug the data into MATLAB to do some auto tuning, if I had a gen4 BZ.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew the variations aren’t really that much of issue compared to the length of time cooling the water would be. It could be that both are deal breakers, but even regular auto-tuning can be for a wide variety of similar conditions.
Hey David, i just received my Gen4 65L Brewzilla, can you help me out on 2 points ? first of all... what "sounds" does your brewzilla make ? mine is silent allthough i set the sound to on... secondly according to Kegland homepage there should be a possability to add hop timers and receive notifications on mobile... but i can not find the options in rapt ... can you give ma hint? thanks a lot!
@@DavidHeathHomebrew thanks for your answers, hope at least hop timers will be implemented in near future, don't get me wrong, i can also set them in brewfather, but i find it kind of disappointing to have so much hardware potential and not using it. All the best.. i subscribe ;)
@@DavidHeathHomebrew I think Brewfather only communicates for fermenting at this stage. I managed to use the "Hook" to add brewfather to my BZ4, but I don't think it does anything (Yet). I used the GRAINFATHER app to keep up with reminders, (Wasn't aware of brewfather on my first brew) Maybe
Through I'd add my ten pence worth on PID. Tested with 16l which is roughly what I mash at and settled on the following. P 0.417 I 0.0022 Up the 50 to 75 degree range gave an over shoot of .1 degree. Will be interesting to see how that works out with malts in too. I should also say this was with jacket on uk 230v g4 35 pump 100 percent valve fully open 100 percent power. I used the BT thermometer and calibrated the internal temp sensor the same as the BT one, double checked with an inkbird thermometer at 30 degrees and all three read the same.
Those shown in the video at the end. Use them as a starting point if you like. You will probably need to tweak further though for your environment to see the best result.
I am utterly baffled by the number of people that seem to have had an easy time with setting their PID and getting consistent temperatures. I've had nothing but an absolute nightmare on every brew I've done. I played around with the PID and ended up setting numbers way lower than I've noticed anybody else use, and I still kept overshooting my temperature by at least 0.5C on water only. And that doesn't matter because as soon as I start brewing with it, it just get insanely out of whack temperatures. A 66C brew is allowed to plummet to 61C on the BT thermo, but be 70C+ on the BZ internal thermo. This obviously then means that the whole thing ends up massively overly compensating and overshooting past my target temperature. What the fuck am I supposed to do? How are so many people able to achieve consistent temperatures? My PID is: P: 0.355, I: 0.0020, D: 0. I try and avoid using 100% heater. It still find it impossible to just achieve a consistent mash temperature.
Hmm that is odd. I suggest that you reach out to Kegland by email, they can be very helpful with such things. Perhaps something is wrong with the setup.
I set P=.68 and I=.0010 following Kee of Kegland's video. On my last brew the heating stalled at 92°c for 15 mins despite a set temperature of 101°c. It only heated to boiling once I disabled PID. Anyone have any idea what might be wrong? 240v mains, 35L Gen 4. Batch was 28L pre-boil volume with insulated jacket on the Brewzilla
If you want to boil then just set the temperature as high as it'll go, you'll then never get to the point the PID starts to kick in to avoid overshoot. This avoids the need to turn in on and off for the mash/boil.
Hi David, I have just received my new Gen 4 35L. I ordered a HED plate and a jacket with it.
I am in Aus and my unit is 10 amp 220-240 volt domestic plug.
I filled it with 20 litres of water and played firstly with the raw temp controller and the element power and pump valve opening to see how close I could get to a satisfactory mash….At best it was a close average but for those who may choose this method I found dropping the element power right down to around 20% help to stabilise temps.
I then turned the pid on and set the standard settings.
I operated the unit beginning at 40 degrees and using increments of 10 degrees until I reached mash out of 77.
My final settings were
Pump 100%
Heat 100%
P value 0.424
I value 0.0024
D value 0.000
This was with jacket installed along with the Heat Exchanger Dish and with 20 litres of water.
At these settings I was getting and overshoot on the high side of 0.1 of a degree and nothing under the set temp at all. If this is how it will function with grain during a mash I will be very happy.
At the end of the adjustments I turned to PID off and set the temp to 102 for the boil.
I measured an average temp rise rate of 1 degree every 50 seconds.
Needless to say I am very happy with the results and I thank you for the informative video.
I can’t wait now to use it in anger with 5 kg of grain.🍻🍺😃👍
Awesome, many thanks for sharing your findings and settings, much appreciated 🍻🍻🍻
I am so glad that you did this. Clear and concise and easy. Much appreciated.
Cheers Alan :) 🍻😎
Hi David.
I am a control systems engineer by profession and I would like to clarify some minor things you said.
First of the I gain, or the integral gain, does not add speed to the system. In fact it does the opposite, it will add a phase delay and is a cause (if not well tuned) for overshoot. One uses the integral gain in order to eliminate steady state deviations (read deviations for when you are close to the desired setpoint/temperature). Tuning the integral effect too large would lead to overshoot and oscillatory response (which is why it is nice to keep the gain small).
Also if you are interested in a more convenient algorithm for tuning a PID controller I would recommend Ziegler-Nichols method. It is not a tough read and quite intuitive even for the average Joe. I'm sure you could find some article or information about the method online.
Anyway thank you for a nice video and happy brewing.
PS: the difference in grid voltage and frequency does not affect how the system behaves and should be tuned.
Many thanks for your thoughts. This is for sure not my area, so I went by information supplied by Kegland. As I understood it though, these areas can differ within such systems. I found conflicting information at first online, so then went to Kegland for assistance for this video.
@DavidHeathHomebrew How you tube the PID differs from systems. And what assumptions are done when modelling the system (most assume linear systems as PID can guarantee exponential stability for such systems). Most systems are not linear and therefore the tuning is not optimal for all systems, and one has to choose between trade offs (aggressive-, robust-, under damped-, over damped control and etc) in the controller. There are vast amounts of algorithms or methods in how to tune the linear PID, and the most important part at the end of the day is to get a response you are happy with.
Also the only thing one actually would change is the transient (how the controller responds when the input reference signal/temperature is changed until it settles at a set value) response of the controller (unless you go too aggressive and make the system response unstable), as the steady state response will be the same for all systems. And the PID will help you choose how fast or slow you want the transient response to be, how much oscillations there will be, and how much of an overshoot there will be (depends mostly on the integral gain). And this is flavour settings depending on the brewer and how one would want the system to behave.
If I could have changed one thing with the system it would be to add integral gain anti-wind up. This would prevent the integral gain to accumulate up too much error and reduce the overshoot amount by a lot. It would also not be difficult to implement for Kegland.
Great, many thanks for the information, much appreciated 🍻🍻🍻
David, thank you for your very informative video. I knew nothing about how PID worked until I watched it.
I have had a couple of test runs on my new 65 Lt BrewZilla GEN 4.
I live in Brisbane Australia. I used the following settings.
Power voltage 230-240 Volts out of a 15 Amp socket.
Neoprene jacket on the BZ.
Lid on
Power 100% (3,500 watts) until strike temp (70C) reached and stabilised.
Pump always running at 100%.
Test Water Volume was for a 2-keg batch, based on a Brewfather recipe.
33.7 Lt mash volume of water tested (sparge excluded).
70 C was the Target strike temp set for mash in.
P: 0.460
I: 0.0018
D: 0.0
Allowed Sensor Temp Diff. set on BZ at 1 C
I used the new RAPT Bluetooth Thermometer bonded to the BZ and selected it as the sensor controlling the PID. The probe was in the centre of the mash vessel and the tip -placed about 6 cm below the water surface.
The starting water temp was 25.1 C. Ambient air temp was 25.0 C.
The test started and the temp increased at a good rate to 65 C after 30 minutes. This was when the PID settings started to take effect. The RAPT probe was at 65 C but the BZ built-in sensor near the elements has reached 71.1 C. The set 1 C Sensor Temp Diff was cycling off the power for short periods until the BZ sensor dropped below 71 C. The RAPT sensor temp continued to steadily increase.
It took another 27 minutes for the RAPT probe to register 70.0 C. Most of this time was used in raising the temp from 69.2 C to 70.0 C when the PID control was most active.
There was no temp overshoot. The maximum temp registered on the RAPT probe was 70.1 C and stabilised between 69.9 and 70.0 C.
I then reduced the power setting to 40% (1,400 watts) with the pump running at 100% for the next 40 minutes. Both temp probes remained very stable. The RAPT probe remained steady between 69.9 and 69.8 C. The in-built BZ probe stayed between 70.5 and 70.1 C. There was very little power cycling at this power setting.
I will set up a simple 2 step profile in RAPT to activate these settings the night before so I can delay the heating start to achieve strike temp early morning on brew day.
Awesome, great infornation, thank you 🍻🍻
I did the test with 20L of water
P: 0.425
I: 0.0023
Allowed sensor diff: 8 C
I created a 2 step mash test profile
50C > 65C > 77C
Ramp up times
20C to 50C: 18min
50C to 65C: 11min
65C to 77C: 11min
77C to Boil: ~20min
35L Gen4
Voltage: 240V
I didn't have any temperature overshoot.
I guess I could increase the sensor diff to 10C without problems.
For boiling, I turned off the PID.
About 2-3C to reach target temperature is when you see slow increases in temperature. Need to be patient here and let the controller do its thing 😅.
Overall, my test was successful. Now, I have to compare with a real brew. 🤞
Thanks for the video. It's been a great starting point to fine tune the BZ PID.
Cheers
I forgot to mention that I had other two temp probes and all of them matching the RAPT temp sensor 🎉
Great, many thanks for sharing 🍻🍻🍻
Wort boiling temps: 213.8-214.1
5 gallons
PID P: 0.680
PID I: 0.0019
PID D: 0.0000
^^ will comment on this when I calculate the mash temp. It’s such a screwy process, but thank you for posting your video!!
Cheers 🍻🍻
Thanks David your videos gives me hope that I can eventually get good beer out of homebrewing. just bought the brewzilla gen4 and did my first batch yesterday and noticed that the step mash was over shooting by a few degrees. I eventually managed to control this after noticing that you could adjust the heater power manually. The PID is a very interesting concept and I thought the idea of sharing a spread sheet with different settings for the 35l and 65 is a great idea. Has anyone started? it would be great for a beginner like me!! thanks
Great to hear. If you follow my guide then set up should not take long. It is important to tweak it to suit your environment.
I had interesting results when I was trying to play around with the PID settings on my 35L Gen 4.
Setup:
Equipment: Brewzilla Gen 4
Malt pipe: Inserted
Jacket: Yes
Lid: Yes
Pump: 100%
Heating: 2400W (100%)
Water: 10L
Observations: As the target temp went up, I needed to change the PID settings. Ambient was around 29c.
-> To go to 40, I put it at (0.28,0.0020) and it overshot by 0.5 degree before coming back to 40.
-> To go to 50, I changed this to (0.18, 0.0020) and it struggled to reach 50, always hovering around 49.7.
-> Changed target temp to 60 and setting to (0.26, 0.0020) and again, same thing. Hovered around 59.6.
-> Changed the target temp to 65 and setting to (0.40, 0.0020) and this now overshot by 0.5c
-> Changed the target temp to 70 and setting to (0.36, 0.0020) and now, again, it struggled to reach 70, hovering around 69.7c.
-> Turned off PID and changed target temp to 74.5. Overshot by 1.5c.
In all, I am not really sure what to make of this. I want to try profiles but am not worried about target temp never being reached and hence the step not starting / stopping. Will probably try a few more times and see what happens.
Cheers!
Great, many thanks for sharing 🍻🍻
If you are not reaching target temperature, your I setting is to low.
🍻🍻🍻
Tanks David ! I must try this and comeback back to you
Cheers, enjoy 🍻🍻🍻
Like Ian Probert, I'm in SEQ Australia, and like Ian I got a similar result.
power voltage 230-240 Volts out of a 15 Amp socket.
No jacket on the BZ.
Lid on
Power 100% (3,500 watts) until strike temp (71C) reached and stabilised.
Pump always running at 100%.
Test Water Volume was for a 2-keg batch.
30 Lt mash volume of water tested (sparge excluded).
71 C was the Target strike temp set for mash in.
P: 0.460
I: 0.0010
D: 0.0
I used a DMM with temp probe. The probe was in the centre of the mash vessel and the tip -placed about 4cm below the water surface.
The starting water temp was 24 C. on the probe and 19C. on the BZ Ambient air temp was 19C.
The following are reading on both the probe and BZ at the times stated:
10 min. Probe 38-BZ38.5
15 min. Probe 47-BZ 47
20min. Probe 55- BZ 55.1
25 min. Probe 64- BZ 63.5
30 min. Probe72- BZ 70.3
then after a few more min to settle the Probe rose to 74 and the BZ hung around at 70.9
Given that my results were so similar to Ian's, I stopped there.
Great, thanks for sharing Bruce, much appreciated 🍻🍻
Hi David and thanks for all your educational videos. I'm into my fourth brewday (Sweden) soon with BZ 30l Gen4.1, full recipe 220V
I intend to use my Rapt thermometer in conjunction with the bottom probe as you've shown.
Q: Is it possible to run both PI(D) and the probe/rapt at the same time or does one ovverride the other?
Best Regards
Martin Hiller
Hi Martin, great to hear 🍻🍻🍻
Yes, PID is advised and works well. Just for mashing though. Turn PID off for the boil 🍻🍻
Fantastic primer on this. Thank you for this.
As for your idea on sharing settings, perhaps we should have a shared google sheet or some such that will make it more structured input so that we can even have rollups etc that might be possible later? Could perhaps facilitate this both there and through the facebook group as well.
Thank you.
Yes, I was thinking that would be useful once results come in too 🍻🍻🍻
thank you David super explained. I'm going to set it up and fine tune from there.
Thanks Robin, easy when you know how 🍻🍻🍻
@@DavidHeathHomebrew so true.
🍻🍻🍻
We need a vid on the RAPT temp controller PID configuration. Cooling and Heating.
Its the same in principle. You would only use PID if used with a brewing system for mashing. Other than that PID is not of great use.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew With the Rapt Temp controller my temperature and cooling always overshoots with 2.5 Degrees Celsius. A Brewtools 500W heating element in a F40 with a glycol cooling system is what I'm using. Kegland does not have any documentation about PID.
I started by just using your final numbers but kept overshooting temp up to 2-4 degrees; had to watch this multiple times and still couldn't quite follow. Finally, I sat down and took notes to calibrate next time. Hopefully the next brew will be more stable.
Great. Like I said in the video, this is more showing how to calibrate rather that the same numbers working for all.
Curious to what your final numbers ended up being? I'm having the same experience...
@@theGrindcrusher I haven't tried it again yet but these are the notes I wrote down after careful listening:
20L Start P @ .480; start I @ .0020
40L Start P @ .680; start I @ .0010
P is core power control, go up for more
I is extra power for speed, go down for more
Try to dail-in P first and then I for fine tuning.
🍻🍻
If my numbers work for you then great but its more likely that you will need to fine tune for your environment.
Thanks for the video, it really helped!
Do you recommend using the neopren isolation jacket and the heatexchanger dish for even better temp control?
Great to hear. Yes, both will certainly help 🍻🍻🍻
Do you think using the new-ish Heat Exchanger Dish changes these settings at all, and what power level you use when mashing with PID enabled (and these settings)? Been using a 65L Gen4 for a year and still struggling with acceptably stable mash temp stability and trying to find the magic combination for my 240V power. Thank you for making this video!!
Hi Mark, I am using the HED with these settings but what is best will vary on environment and brew volume. You will need to tweak 🍻🍻🍻
Hi David, I have just bought the Rapt Temp controller aiming to use it for fermentation with my F40 conical and the BT 500w element. I am finding the element too strong for an F40 so I am hoping for the PID to reduce the power of the element to about 100W. my typical fermentation batch size is about 30L in a winter ambient temperature of about 4-8C. I will probably need to have a separate profile for the summer months when I expect about 20-28C (Amsterdam). do you have a recommendation as a starting point for the PID setting? and is the number representing the P translating into a power percentage of the total power of the heating source? thank you
Hi, sounds like a good plan. I am unsure of a good starting point though. You will need to dial this one in for sure.
superb again David, thanks
Many thanks Davie 🍻🍻🍻
Hi David,
Many thanks for a great video. Just one thing, when i was testing mine, i noticed the power was always at 100% (P=0.58, I=0.0015, 20L water on 35L edition), even when just maintaining temp. It seems to switch on and off every few seconds. Am i doing something wrong?
Hi Rory, yes that is correct while mashing. Just switch PID off when doing the boil 🍻🍻
Thanks for this David, really useful
Great to hear 🍻🍻🍻
Thanks for the great job you do!
Just received my Brewzilla 65, and I am ready to start testing this. But i have a question.
When you are saying "mashing volume", I assume that you count grains too?
Like if I have a recipe that Brewfather tells to have 15L mash water 4.5 kg of grain and then 13L of sparge water for total of 21L batch, that would mean that I want to test a 20-22 L of "mashing volume" ?
Cheers. Mash volume is pure water, the grains are adding after 🍻🍻
Hello David. Great and usefull as allways. I have a doubt though. If i'm just brewing not destilling the "D" part of PID has to be set at 0.000? Mine is 0,750 by default. Does it affect my brewing? Thank you very much.
You can leave it like that or try zero. See if you notice a difference.
Thanks for the video David. Quick question (and apologies if I missed this in the video) - do you disable PID heating after sparging and bringing the wort up to a boil?
Hey Hugo, yes. You do not want PID for the boil 🍻🍻
@@DavidHeathHomebrew Wow this is fairly important isn't it? I had to set my boil @ 103c with PID on to reach the boil, this explains it. PS I will post my observations below for all to see.
Yes. You do not need or want PID for the boil phase.
Has there been any reports from people with the 100L BZ?
I dont have one but I hear good feedback.
Settings for 5.25 gal mash water
Brewzilla Gen 4 120v 30L
P: 0.666
I: 0.0011
D: 0.0000
Great, many thanks for sharing 🍻🍻🍻
Thanks for the video, David. I'm still not clear. Is "P" the same as the manual percentage power level setting? If PID is turned on at the start of the heating process, does that mean that the water will take much longer to heat up? If so, then would you only enable PID once you are close to the target temperature?
Also, once you enable the PID setting, does that ignore the manual heating percentage setting, or does the manual setting affect the PID setting?
Thanks.
Hi John, PID when set well will allow for fast heating but you could enable it when you are within a short distance of temperature. Personally I switch it on for ramp up to mash temps and its fast. The P setting in PID is unique and it relates to the power allocated to the elements. I hope this helps 🍻🍻😎
@@DavidHeathHomebrew Thanks, David - that was helpful.
@johnkoopmans8278 Great to hear 🍻🍻
Man, you just demistified PID tuning for me, very much appreciated!
I've just finished my first two batches with the Gen4 35 liter, I'm very happy with the purchase. I have two questions:
1. If I use the PID function, do I still need to turn down the power to ~ 30% during the mash?
2. is there a delayed start function like in the older models? If yes, how do I access it's
Prost and keep the videos coming;)
Great to hear 🍻🍻
1, No the PID will take over
2, Yes but you need to create in within a profile. Start with the delay you need, then the first mash step heating. I would say allow 30 mins for the heating, so your delay will be 30 mins short.
I hope this helps, cheers 🍻🍻🍻
@@DavidHeathHomebrew Great, thanks a lot!
🍻🍻🍻
Hi David, thanks one again for educational video. I want to know what is your PID settings on 65L Brewzilla for one keg batch and for two keg batch because this is what I will be brewing.Thanks in advance.
Hi, right now I have only got as far as the one keg batch, my settings for that are in this video. You may need to tweak further though. I suggest doing the test and seeing.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew Thanks for your answer and effort.
Cheers 🍻🍻🍻
Thank you
🍻🍻🍻
Thanks for the great info Dave. When you're done with the testing and brewing as normal do you keep the hysteresis setting at 0?
Cheers. Yes, keep it at 0.
Good to know, I struggled keeping a consistent boil when it was at the default 3.5 hysteresis. If set to 0 I assume the heating element is constantly switching on and off in order to maintain the same temp. Hope that doesn’t burn out the heating element. It would be helpful to see a video of all the menu settings as the BrewZilla documentation doesn’t cover any of the settings.
No issues or worries around the element.
How did those settings fare when actually brewing? Did you have to tweak anymore?
For me they worked out very well. I suggest you do some tests of your own though as explained in the video.
David is there a delay start? Useful if you want your mash water heated up in the morning. I cannot seem to find the process to do this anywhere
You can simply make a RAPT profile for the temp you want with a suitable delay.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew thanks for the reply.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew is there a video with an in depth overview of creating mash profiles, adding steps, in the RAPT portal?
I have been planning such a video but there are some changes planned so I have held back.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew oh ok makes sense. As always I'll be looking out for your latest videos. Thanks!
Hi David, have you managed to set up a delayed start on the Gen 4?
This can be made with a profile in RAPT. The first step will need to be for 0C for the amount of time you want it to be before the Brewzilla starts preheating to the next temperature. A simple 2 step profile will work nicely.
That is exactly what I worked out in the end, certainly not as easy as the general I moved from in that regard.
Generation not General, autocorrect 🙄
Yes, perhaps this will be upgraded in the future.
How do you setup a delayed start? I don't see that as a step option in the RAPT portal. Can you only do that on the control panel? RAPT interface seems like it has a long way to go relative to setup, available profiles, sharing profiles, etc. It's the one thing that i'm most concerned about as I consider buying the Brewzilla GEN 4 instead of the Grainfather G30.
Hi,
Its all there on the Rapt portal.
Make a one step Brewzilla temp profile for your desired mash temp with a start time with the delay you want. Easy stuff 🍻
That’s what I thought and tried to do but I don’t see anywhere to enter a start time for the step that isn’t contingent on the previous step, an assigned duration or reaching a temperature. I see all the options under temp automation, etc. but nothing to select a time for it to start heating or for it to reach strike temp by a certain time. Maybe I’m missing something. FYI, by the way, all your videos are fantastic and I appreciate your quick response to questions.
Are you a member of my FB group? Its easier to show you the profile this way.
I just joined and membership is pending.
Ok great, you should find a post where is mentioned. If not please make on and I will share an image to help you.
great information -thank u
Cheers Tim 🍻🍻🍻
thank you David, that helped a lot, do you have any advice on where I can look for the D-Derivative information or settings for the use of distillation? I can't seem to find much out there at all and there certainly isn't an easy explanation video like this one is for the proportional and integral settings
Great to hear. Kegland should be able to help you with that 🍻🍻
Hi David, if I brew with one or two exstensions maybe 80 or 90 litars what parametars P and I will be than? Thank You
Hi Marko, I think Kegland might be able to tell you that but personally I do not know. You will need to dial it in anyway but maybe they can estimate it.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew thank You I ask them and they told me that if I am not familiar with PID tuning that I do not using it.
Hi David,
Stuck between the choice of Grainfather G30 or Brewziller 35l Gen4, which would you personally recommend? Many thanks for you thoughts and great videos!
I would suggest the GEN 4 Brewzilla personally. The G30 is quite some years old now and is rather low tech compared. The GEN 4 Brewzillas are ahead in a number of key areas. This is probably the best comparison video series to watch:- ruclips.net/p/RDCMUCb3HYxTpCaVDeulH1mZGW1Q&playnext=1
@@DavidHeathHomebrew
Thanks, appreciate the feedback!
🍻🍻🍻
@@DavidHeathHomebrew
One more question, now you convinced me of the BZ Gen4, I am stuck deciding between the 35l or 65l… Planing batches between 20l and 25l, so in theory the 35l should suffice, but the 65l also allows for batches of this size. Any benefits going for the 65l even if I do not intend brewing more than 25l batches?
Thanks again!
Hi, the 65L has more power, if you have the fuse for it. Having said this you can use boil extenders to increase the volume of both systems. ruclips.net/video/cT1jMkifqK8/видео.html
I would be interested to know what the error would be if you just had KP = 0.2 and ki/kd off. I'm guessing it would be about 80%. KP is used to improve transient response time and reduce the error, however using Kp alone can never eliminate the error. This is where ki is used. A small amount of integral gain is used to drive the plant the desired setpoint. Your ki gain is actually very large since it is inversely proportional to the integral time constant, ki = 1/Ti and I'm guessing you are changing Ti. The derivative term contributes damping to the system but is often neglected as it is sensitive to noise. It would be interesting to record the response and plug the data into MATLAB to do some auto tuning, if I had a gen4 BZ.
That would be something KL would be able to advise you on fully, if needed.
I am disappointed to not see autotuning. It’s been over 15 years since I tuned a PID system.
I am not sure how possible that would be considering all the variations.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew the variations aren’t really that much of issue compared to the length of time cooling the water would be.
It could be that both are deal breakers, but even regular auto-tuning can be for a wide variety of similar conditions.
I am sure KL went fully into it for the best end result.
Hey David, i just received my Gen4 65L Brewzilla, can you help me out on 2 points ? first of all... what "sounds" does your brewzilla make ? mine is silent allthough i set the sound to on... secondly according to Kegland homepage there should be a possability to add hop timers and receive notifications on mobile... but i can not find the options in rapt ... can you give ma hint? thanks a lot!
Hi Thomas, sure, here are my answers:-
1) Silent so far
2) I believe this is part of Brewfather integration.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew thanks for your answers, hope at least hop timers will be implemented in near future, don't get me wrong, i can also set them in brewfather, but i find it kind of disappointing to have so much hardware potential and not using it. All the best.. i subscribe ;)
Thank you. Yes, loads of potential yet for sure. Much more being added but you can link Brewfather now but its still in beta.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew I think Brewfather only communicates for fermenting at this stage. I managed to use the "Hook" to add brewfather to my BZ4, but I don't think it does anything (Yet). I used the GRAINFATHER app to keep up with reminders, (Wasn't aware of brewfather on my first brew) Maybe
There is a test build program that users can ask to join
Through I'd add my ten pence worth on PID.
Tested with 16l which is roughly what I mash at and settled on the following.
P 0.417 I 0.0022
Up the 50 to 75 degree range gave an over shoot of .1 degree. Will be interesting to see how that works out with malts in too.
I should also say this was with jacket on uk 230v g4 35 pump 100 percent valve fully open 100 percent power.
I used the BT thermometer and calibrated the internal temp sensor the same as the BT one, double checked with an inkbird thermometer at 30 degrees and all three read the same.
Great, many thanks for your thoughts 🍻🍻🍻
What would the PID settings be for the Brewzilla gen 4...?
This video covers this topic 🍻🍻
I have gen 4 35L 110v. What everyone using for PID setting?
It will vary some Travis but yeah it saves time to have a starting point :)
@@DavidHeathHomebrew can you adjust PID while it’s over shooting
Sure but its best to do your testing and setting ahead.
What did you eventually set you PID numbers at?
Those shown in the video at the end. Use them as a starting point if you like. You will probably need to tweak further though for your environment to see the best result.
Where can i find data on how to set it for distillation?
I think KL directly could help there 🍻🍻🍻
I am utterly baffled by the number of people that seem to have had an easy time with setting their PID and getting consistent temperatures. I've had nothing but an absolute nightmare on every brew I've done. I played around with the PID and ended up setting numbers way lower than I've noticed anybody else use, and I still kept overshooting my temperature by at least 0.5C on water only. And that doesn't matter because as soon as I start brewing with it, it just get insanely out of whack temperatures. A 66C brew is allowed to plummet to 61C on the BT thermo, but be 70C+ on the BZ internal thermo. This obviously then means that the whole thing ends up massively overly compensating and overshooting past my target temperature.
What the fuck am I supposed to do? How are so many people able to achieve consistent temperatures?
My PID is: P: 0.355, I: 0.0020, D: 0. I try and avoid using 100% heater. It still find it impossible to just achieve a consistent mash temperature.
Hmm that is odd. I suggest that you reach out to Kegland by email, they can be very helpful with such things. Perhaps something is wrong with the setup.
How did you solve this problem? I have the same problem.
I set P=.68 and I=.0010 following Kee of Kegland's video. On my last brew the heating stalled at 92°c for 15 mins despite a set temperature of 101°c. It only heated to boiling once I disabled PID. Anyone have any idea what might be wrong? 240v mains, 35L Gen 4. Batch was 28L pre-boil volume with insulated jacket on the Brewzilla
Hi Geoff, there is no point in using PID past mashing temps. Turn it after after your mash.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew Thanks David, that makes sense, maybe in the future I'll be able to control PID from my RAPT profile.
Yes, it is something I would like too :)
If you want to boil then just set the temperature as high as it'll go, you'll then never get to the point the PID starts to kick in to avoid overshoot. This avoids the need to turn in on and off for the mash/boil.
If you did that for medium and small batches then your boil off would increase, especially with the 65L.