You don't like Wheel Pommels or Viking Sword Hilts? Git Gud
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- Опубликовано: 7 май 2021
- You don't like the feeling of wheel pommels or Viking era hilts? Suck it up... If you want to understand how historical swords were used, then you need to use them.
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Развлечения
"Am I out of touch? No, it's 700 years of martial history that are wrong."
Your comment made me laugh.
Keep pommel attached? Do not, throw!
The Sarissa is a bad weapon design, even if Alexander reached India with it. Still a clumsy pike.
@@wendel5868
Captain Context's holy intervention is required here.
I feel stupid for not having expected to see this in the comments. Thank you!
"If you don't like wheel pommels... Well , get over it."
Based.
And pommel pilled.
Everyone who says they don't like wheel pommels... he just ended them rightly.
*biased
BASED ON WHAT
Hey I like all pummels as long as we're able to unscrew the pummel and throw it!
I interpret the "scent stopper" pommel's name as being a hint at its true purpose: you remove it and throw it at you're opponent's nose. That way, they stop being able to smell scents.
No you have it all wrong. The scent stopper is made of stainless steel and you use it to remove the smell of onions from your hands after making lunch. Sometimes thrown at bloodhounds in a pinch😉
Scent him rightly.
I've been hit in the nose by one on a sword before. Given the blood that came out, I could not smell anything for a little while.
@@hieug.rection1920 that’s exactly what Ben Dover said 🤣
Give this man his doctorate! Lol
I love wheel pommels, but I do prefer fishtail ones to be honest.
Same. The fighting style that people practice these days are almost all late-15th century two-handed styles (because the earlier one-handed styles don't have much anything in the way of surviving primary sources!), and it should be no surprise that if people practice 15th-century two-handed sword fighting systems with a heavy emphasis on thrusting, that they aren't big fans of pommel designs that were engineered for use with a 11th-century one-handed sword and round-shield fighting system with an almost exclusive emphasis on draw cuts.
Matt did a really, REALLY poor job of clarifying what the actual topic of this video was. Because it SHOULD have been "you should use weapons and equipment that is historically correct for the historical period of the fighting style you are practicing, and learn to use the equipment as it existed", but instead the topic came off as "I don't care what fighting system you are using, you should love wheel pommels or you're a scrub".
Yeah, ok, except that scent-stopper and fish-tail pommels absolutely ARE correct for 15th century German-speaking lands. Which just so happens to be exactly where the fighting treatises most modern practitioners use came from in the first place. So, the scent-stopper and fish-tail pommels ARE historically correct.
Matt really missed the "context" boat on this one.
I love how they look but I've only held two examples and it dug into my hand a lil, mostly when cutting but with a glove they're fine. however I'm curious do you find them comfortable bare handed? I'm wondering if I'm holding them funny or something else.
Fishtails are pretty.
@@brockchopper2430 I find them to be way more comfortable, I have far more purchase with my other hand (if I'm using two hands) on the pommel with the flared end of the fishtail than with the wheel, to avoid it digging I place the heel of the palm along the edge of the pommel, and the flared end sits just on the end of the side of the palm, preventing my had from slipping. The trick is holding it with fewer fingers, and that loosely until you strike, as you would, for example, a katana. Plus I love how they look.
I don't know if I'm making sense here. Sorry but English isn't my first language.
@@undead9999 that makes perfect sense. It felt like that's what my hand wanted to do, but maybe the casting on the ones I held were not great. Either way thank you for the great response.
Why were wheel pommels so prevalent throughout the middle ages?
Because they're freaking awesome and feel awesome in the hand!
I genuinely did not know that so many people don't like them.
Because they are easy to make
@@tedarcher9120 Not necessarily. The hollow ones will need go be fire welded (UK term, the US term would be 'forgewelded') onto one another, which may be a mildly tricky thing to align properly in the few seconds you have to weld them in. Though naturally if one has either specialised tools or plenty of experience that will get easier.
@@tedarcher9120 the opening section of my comment was a rhetorical question,
I was simply stating that wheel pommels can actually add a lot to the feel of a sword in terms of " snappiness " imo.
@@Matt_PunchEnthusiast_Morris they also would be easier to personalize (with engravings or gems or even paint) to thereby make the sword their own.
I think there's a bit of a mis-perception here; the people who don't like wheel pommels (at least in my experience) don't dislike wheel pommels in general, they dislike them on LONGSWORDS. On arming swords and other one-handed swords, I haven't heard anyone complain about them. In the context of cut-centric single-handed swords, the wheel and norse/ anglo-saxon pommel design work fine, because they don't dig in as long as you are executing proper cuts (with the sword more or less perpendicular to your forearm).
But in the context of late medieval/ early renaissance longsword fighting styles, the wheel pommel isn't really as nice to use as the fish-tail and scent-stopper pommel designs, which just seem (as Matt acknowledges in this video) more ergonomic- PARTICULARLY for motions with the wrists extended; for example, to make a thrust. Considering that the late 14th and 15th century swords are designed for thrusting, and considering that the fighting styles modern enthusiast study are almost ENTIRELY from the 15th century manuscripts, in a fighting system that makes heavy use of double-handed grips, crossed wrists, and extended wrists... it shouldn't be surprising that the people who are practicing those arts like a pommel design that works well with that, rather than viking-style hilt designs that were NEVER DESIGNED to be used with the fighting system they are practicing.
As far as historicity, the fish-tail and scent-stopper pommels were quite popular in German-speaking lands compared to wheel pommels, particularly in the late 15th-16th century.
To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of wheel pommels (on two-handed swords) either; I like the German fish-tail or scent-stoppers; I simply find them more aesthetically pleasing, and I find they perform better as you can slide your weak-hand grip up or down the grip for a wider grip (better leverage) or narrower grip (so the pommel protrudes for striking or hooking motions).
Matt's point about modern taste in our insistence on perfect symmetry and perfectly uniform, smooth surfaces are spot on, though. Modern people just seem to like things that look machine-precise.
...Just waiting on the sycophants to come make mocking comments and totally miss the point, now.
I sort of figured wheel pommel were very prevalent because they got a good compromise of simple to fabricate, comfortable enough, able to be easily adjusted to different sized swords, and still can look pretty fresh.
"Some actually get fatter towards the peen." Context!
"His sword had an egg shaped peen."
Wheel pommels go with everything. How could you not like them?
I want to see a katana with a wheel pommel. A really oversized wheel pommel.
@@bryce4228 Preferably a spoked wheel pommel.
@@Zraknul now we're talking
Try the low profile magnesium alloy pommel with spinner! Or is that a bit much?
@@andrewnawarycz3026 spinners need chrome. Maybe if Cadillac made swords.
I have two longswords, one has a wheel pommel, the other has a pear shaped one, I love them both.
never held a sword in my life, but I find that kind of subject fascinating
Well... get over it anyway!
Another consideration for re-enactment is many groups require padded safety gauntlets so the grips have to be longer.
I just kept thinking "that is all well and good but I am physically larger than 99% of the people who lived at that time. So adding a little length on the grip is just sizing it to me"
Unless there were a lot of 1.9-2 meter tall guys running around back then.
Can you do a video comparing the advantages and disadvantages between asymmetrical and symmetrical sabre hilts?
It seems like he’s covered this a lot although maybe not in a video dedicated to the topic. As I recall, my short summary would be: Asymmetric are more comfortable to wear without giving up much protection since our hands are asymmetric. But they can make it slightly harder to keep the edge aligned and are a little less protective.
Wheel pommels are probably my favorite..They help me generate powerful, quick snap cuts, and you can extend your reach and still have something to lock into. Great vid
would indeed say that it has superior grip or rather better prevention against slipping out your hand. I would say that could be very important during fights/battles. certainly the moment your hands get wet.
@@Dylanm0909 and keep edge alignment especially on contact . Swords will tend to wrench on impact. In modern hema I notice edge alignment is not seen as critical as I think it would be in actual combat. The more perpendicular the cut the more effective. Ive spend a lot of time doing brush clearing using a bush knife and alignment is very important or the wrenching that happens can put a huge load on the wrist and elbow.
Perhaps because it is easier to put symbols, heraldry, runes and writings on the flat surface of round pommel. It is important for certain people such as Knights of certain Orders, noble house and such things.
This video would've benefited from a brief recap about how to properly hold these swords using these pommels and the rationale behind the grips. Either that, or links to your previous videos explaining this.
ruclips.net/video/BxqLgRXuNlU/видео.html
"Get over it."
I beg your pardon, but that's a dealbraker. I can tolerate almost anything, including bollock dagger and spadroon, but wheel pommels - that's where i draw the line. I guess no more medieval stuff for me.
i disagree with one point:
many times, reenactment swords handles are also longer, because of using unhistorical gloves for different types of combat or combat like activities
Agreed. One thing that is missed here is the mention of the Henry the 8th sword having a longer handle. Earlier swords were used without gauntlets while the later swords would have been used with a fully armored hand.
We do not actually do that much any longer. It is us that follow Roland most closely; after all, reenactment was where he started and I got to know him back in 1995.
Another thought I had: how did hand size change over the centuries? If the vikings who originally used those swords had (on average) smaller hands than people today, it'd make sense to increase the grip length to match "modern" hands.
@@rolfs2165 Scandanavians at the time were not significantly different in size from today. It's also worth bearing in mind that even in situations where poor nutrition leads to people not growing as large as they 'could be', the size of hands and feet tends to be unaffected.
I thought the reason why modern viking swords have longer grips was so that you could wear hand protection with them? At least ones designed for hema and reenactment.
I could understand it for HEMA, but not for reenactment where if you can't exercise control and restraint they shouldn't be doing it in the first place. With some of the examples I've seen, they might as well be reenacting Lord of the Rings for all the historical accuracy of their weapons.
That is true, but it's also true that people who did cutting practice and reenactors found that the pommels dug into their hands (in one of his videos, Roland Warzecha talked about how he'd have to patch his gloves where the pommel dug in during his early reenacting days) and had longer grips made in some cases.
I don't mind wheel pommel, though I prefer scent stoppers.
However I will point out, just because wheels were the most popular, doesn't mean they are they ONLY style that existed during that time period.
I feel as though perhaps your being far too aggressive and antagonistic towards anyone who dislikes or otherwise prefers other style of pommel.
That being said, love the channel and I can broadly agree with the overall message. Just saying if scent stopper (etc) styles did exist and were or could be bought at the time, saying someone is wrong for not using a wheel pommel seems a bit harsh.
It's always been my opinion that the wheel pommel was there, in part, to assist the Knight/man at arms to quickly draw the weapon and find the edge alignment while wearing heavy gloves/mail mittens/gauntlets without having to look, that way they could keep their eyes on their opponent.
LOL, just commented something very similar, wondered how far down I'd have to scroll to find this.
Most sword grips should be oval-shaped, so you should be able to find the edge just by holding the grip. Plus wheels aren't better at aligning the edge than fishtails or Viking-era pommels would be. I think there's got to be something more going on, though it may just be fashion, or the fact that it's easier to wear a sword that doesn't have pointy bits on the end.
@@daaaah_whoosh I was thinking of the way a rondel dagger hilt is shaped so as to make it easy to find and draw while wearing protective hand gear. Try drawing a sword with your eyes closed while wearing welding gloves; without large tactile clues it's difficult to get it aligned properly, even if the hilt is oval in cross section (tried it before and sent the water bottle flying).
"Don't like wheel or lobed pommels?
You're doing it wrong." 😂🤣😂
Not if what you're "doing" is 15th century longsword fencing like 90+% of all modern HEMA practitioners.
Scent stoppers and fishtail pommels are historically wrong for 9th-11th century north European fighting styles.
Know what else is wrong about modern practice of 9th-11th century north European fighting styles? Everything. Because we have exactly zero surviving manuals that describe how the fighting style was actually done. So everything BUT the artifacts must be near-complete speculation.
But the 15th century Germanic longsword styles, for which we DO have decent documentation, were historically performed in a historical context in which the scent-stopper and fish-tail pommel absolutely were present. There is nothing "unhistorical" about performing 15th century longsword practice with a sword with a scent-stopper pommel.
...Which I know damn well Matt understands, because he himself has stated that the Albion Ringeck (which he has featured in many shows) is a sword he particularly likes.
He fully understands the difference between having a preference between different styles that were historically present, versus using an ahistoric design to practice a historic martial art that it was never used with. He just did a really shite job of explaining the difference in this video.
If we follow his reasoning in this video to it's logical extreme, then anyone who practices 15th century armored combat in a perfect replica of a historical German Gothic harness is "wrong", because Italian export armor was more common. And anyone who likes to practice longsword is "wrong", because polearms were the more prevalent weapon on the battlefield.
That is ridiculous. Is your equipment correct for the period and region of the martial art you're practicing? Yes? Great. Doesn't matter if you prefer a wheel or scent-stopper pommel, if both are historically correct for the art you're practicing.
Related to this,it would be nice a video about the different types of pommels and the advantages and disadvantages they give.
Matt heard people whining about pommels so he's *breaking them on the wheel.*
When first starting HEMA two and a half years ago, I tried a variety of pommel types, and found that - as you said - wheel pommels were biting into the heel of the palm of my hand to the point where it became really uncomfortable. As a former sport sabre fencer, I had latent tendencies to bend my wrist in ways that exacerbated this issue. Like many, I chose a scent-stopper pommel on my first Regenyei arming sword (plus, I liked the versatility in using the sword with differing grips). When using my sword with light gloves or bare-handed, this works just fine. However, I found that with heavy mitten gloves, such as Sparring Gloves, the symmetrical scent-stopper pommel does nothing to stop the sword from spinning in my grip when sparring or encountering significant blade contact with opponents. Often during spars, I need to step back and adjust my grip just to keep edge alignment, which doesn't seem to be as much of a problem with wheel pommels. I suspect that the transition of the sword from armoured battlefield weapon to unarmoured civilian weapon had a lot to do with the proliferation of different pommel types from the later 15th century onward.
My next arming sword will have a wheel pommel, for sure.
Very good observation
I got myself a wheel pommel longsword, and, despite having to get used to it, I found lots of advantages to edge alignment in cuts, and forcing you to get your hands a little closer, you avoid a lot of 'push-pull' mechanics and getting more solid cuts.
Lots of people tell me exact the same things you said: "I don't like wheel pommels!" And I'm like: well, you are not supposed to grip the whole pommel! Just grab the handle and a little of the pommel and you are golden. I believe some of the hatred to the wheel pommels (at least in HEMA) is the obsession with gripping the pommel all of the time, when we have, not only the images on the manuscripts, but writing advice (at least in german sources) telling us NOT TO GRIP THE POMMEL. And yet I've encountered people telling me that those images or those writings must be wrong, because they are the ones doing it right.
Obviously I don't pretend that I'm the one carrying the truth here, but if you see illustrations and texts in the treatises that you supposedly are studying, telling you not to grip the pommel, perhaps you should give it a fucking try, instead of believenig that you know more than the original author, don't you think?
The thing about symmetry is an interesting thought; I wonder if the abundance of perfectly machines parts in the modern age affects our view of things made in the past. We expect everything to be perfect every time, but hand crafted things are all different.
Wheel pommels are my favorite ones generally speaking
I would love to see a video on why the wheel pommels were so popular.
I smell a counter video from Shad on how you can make an ahistorical wheel pommel that's more comfortable and doesn't require you to adjust the way you hold and use the sword. It's going to be called the Shommel.
No doubt. Shad is a stupid tool
The answer regarding Wiking aged pommels is easy and has two parts:
1: Don't use modern measurement. The hand must fit.
2: The pommel helps, not to be disarmed, if your grip is to strong. If you have experienced this once, you should know, what I mean.
I disagree with this.
I own all sorts of swords.
A norman sword with short handle, a whole load of longswords with various pommel types (pear, cone, and faceted pommels as well as scent stopper and wheel pommels), several onehanded swords and a schlachtschwert.
I really don't care about pommel shapes when handling a sword. (While I have preferences concerning their look ofc.)
But swords are customizable. They are and they always have been. If you don't like a particular pommel shape you don't have to deal with it - you can concider a pommel shape uncomfortable while still using it the proper way. People are different and that is ok. I think most people who dislike disc pommels in the HEMA sphere are absolutely capable to use a sword with a disc pommel. But they probably won't buy a sword with one. And why should they if it's uncomfortable for them and they have the choice?
In reenactment things are a bit more complicated since you try to recreate a certain fashion from a certain period and thus you are restricted to stuff from thst period.
If you want a longsword from somewhere between 1100 and 1300 for instance, you will probably end up with a disk pommel, sure.
But fencing is not reenactment. Applying liechtenauers techniques correctly won't require you to use a disc pommel and you're probably not even wrong if you use a 15/16th century longsword. We find elements from Liechtenauer in Joachim Meyers' fencing manuals which indicates that Liechtenauers' system was used for quite a while and people probably applied it to swords of their period instead of using old ones from his period.
And Fiore simply lived in the 15th century whith it's variety of pommel shapes. Why should a Fiore fencer deal with disc pommels if he dislikes it?
I really see no reason why you should force yourself to use a pommel you don't like in HEMA...
I agree with your disagreement, though Matt did qualify it by saying historical reenactment. It depends on your goal. Roland argues that unless you're sparring with sharps and without protective gear you aren't really practicing historical martial arts, which I doubt Matt agrees with either so, it's all relative in my opinion.
It's interesting that you mention the pommels being slightly angled wrt the blade. I have a pair of Ethiopian swords that very clearly have grips that are at an angle to the blade. The pommel end of the grip flares to a wide flat shape on these. When I got the first one I thought it was just built with a slight defect, but with the second one I realized it was almost certainly intentional and is probably telling me something about the way these were held.
I'm a fan of scent-stopper pommels, or swords with complex hilts that don't have a typical pommel, and I did not need to be called out like this.
Yes, you did...
@@_XR40_ *rocks back and forth in the corner cradling a Narsil replica*
Yeah, Matt REALLY did a bad job of actually explaining the point of the video. He waffles back and forth between a reasonable "if you're going to practice a historical martial art, you need to do so with the historically correct equipment for that particular time and region" and an absolutely asinine "if you don't prefer this one historical style of pommel over all of the OTHER historical style of pommels that were ALSO used in that time and region with that martial art you're practicing, you're a LOSER!!!1one!!!"
There's nothing wrong with preferring scent-stopper or fish-tail pommels on your 15th century longsword. Those absolutely existed, and were plenty popular. There IS something wrong with insisting on putting a scent-stopper pommel on a sword you're planning to use to practice 11th century norse single-hand sword fighting, because it is not a representative of the weapons used in that period, in that region.
But that isn't what people are going to take away from this.
Instead, now we'll have to deal with legions of smug self-important gits crowing about how they're "better" because they prefer wheel pommels, and their preferred expert validated their opinion.
Douche move, Matt. Pretty sure that wasn't the point you ACTUALLY meant to present. And if it was, it's a cheap grasp at video viewer count based on controversy.
@@spamhonx56 How did you know? And what's a Narsil?
@@_XR40_ I was joking that that's what i was doing- and narsil's a very pretty longsword from lord of the rings, in the peter jackson films it has a pommel design i really like.
6:08 WHY?! I wanted to know why! Hope you make a follow up video!
Same lol
Imo it has to do with shields. Doesn't sound like a coincidence other pommel designs rise in popularity just as shields go down.
@@louisvictor3473 I think that's a fals correlation.
Wheel pommels are great on one handed swords that happen to be used with shields.
@@nicopetri3533Ignoring that phrasing can easily be read as basically the same, I will need a bit more than "nah, just coincidence I think, ignore the evidence" to ignore the evidence.
@@louisvictor3473 but only because shield decline in popularity and other pommel types rise, doesn't mean the decline of the shields has anything to do with it.
Shields were used with one handed swords where wheel pommels were the norm.
And the rise of other types of pommels is on two handed swords primarily, because wheel pommels were still very much the norm on the one handed swords of the time just like Matt said.
So if anything then the rise if two handed swords meant a decline in wheel pommels, because one handed swords with shield weren't used as much anymore.
To say it is because shields declined is a false assumption.
Your videos are an amazing escape from sometime troubling times! An escape to amazing history and artifacts! Love the videos!
It's like the anti-piracy commercial: "you wouldn't handshake grip a claymore"
I do viking reenactment, and at least partially, the long hilt problem comes down to the protective gloves being too large to fit in a period-correct grip. Once you get proper gloves, you can use 10cm grips
Same thing with shield hand holds and bosses, modern requirements sneak into the kit and then get presented as period accurate. No problem with making things work honestly but you need to know so you can be correct if presenting as true to the time and orignials
Perfect, great video Matt.
Are wheel pommels simply easier to manufacture?
As someone who forges: no, Not really, maybe faster and easier if you take the plain ones.
It seems like most "straight things" were forged, and most "round things" were cast, in which case, yes.
To me the type of glove you are wearing makes a huge difference on how the pommel works out
( without going into any technical details as to why you are correct in your assertions ) ... Spot on Matt ... Totally spot on !
I've done Hema for over 10 years. The wheel is my favorite by a HUGE margin for hand and a half swords. It acts like a swivel in your off hand and gives tactile edge alignment.
Thank you so much for the great information.
Thank you for this channel and my kudos to you on how you treat the topic, including the theories put forth that you may or may not agree with. While I'm more on the camp of Roland on the pommel twist thing, I think you are doing a great service to the community in bringing up the other viewpoint and pointing out that these are theories - not facts - and dependent on interpretations. I especially like the way how you bring up the bigger picture, the context of use and the practical implications and reasons stemming from that, as it helps to understand why, not just what. Salute !
"Get over it."
You ended them rightly, without even throwing your pommels! Legend!
came here looking for this reference
Also wheel pommels are the best because of their superior aerodynamics when being used to end someone rightly.
Sorry not Sorry :)
You had me in the first half
@@GuitarsRockForever Some are peened, some are threaded
Haha. Fart aero..ss
Well Bhoyle !))
Interesting. You're suggesting they should be thrown as a frisbee, rather than how a person would throw a rock? I need to practise this.
Aesthetically I just prefer the fishtail style. Something about the big mass of a wheel pommel at the bottom is just not visually appealing. Especially that big fat one!
And unrelated to this video. You talked about the 'Norman' Kite shield and how you thought it was designed for cavalry usage with the way it was strapped and held and how much of the body it covered etc. But did you ever talk about how it was used on foot and why it was so popular with, for example, the massed Anglo Saxon infantry?
Great content!
A lot of hilt designs incorporate a very strong gripping point for the little finger, I think today people just aren't aware of how important the little finger is in securing a grip on things
Very interesting, Matt: thanks.
☝️😎
I find wheel pommels on longswords more useful than most other shapes. They make edge alignment much easier and feel more secure to grip.
I am glad you’ve addressed this issue as I have noticed it as well.
I much prefer wheel pommels in one handed swords as they were much more popular. I find them more ergonomic and at the beginning helpful to keep the sword aligned.
For long swords there weren’t many very good such pommels 4-5 years ago but now they are much more available. And my favourite sharp longsword is the Albion Munich
Meanwhile, I absolutely love cat-ear/cat-head pommels (commonly found around Northern Italy in the late 16th and into the 17th century). Though, Matt- in the 'Black and White house' museum in Hereford, there's an English basked hilted sword, that my hands (which of you measure them around the knucles from pinky to index finger measure about 12cm) simply will not fit into, no matter how I would grip it. Thee grip is simply too small (within the basket itself there's about 9,5cm from the 'crossguard' to the pommel, so about 10,5 cm overall that you hand has to fit into.)
(The making of this sword dates somewhere between 1620-1640)
Probably had more to worry about in the middle ages than precise aesthetics of design.
Very interesting video never really thought about these things before. Also i do like the "to long grip" that i have on my viking area sword, simply because it allows me to wear a good amount of handprotection when using it.
I find the comment about our fascination of symmetry really interesting and important.
Many old antique pieces show that absolute symmetry was not the case. Handicraft plays a part for sure. I would dare to say that most likely symmetry was something that was admired but not looked after. After all, swords and other pointy sharp objects were above everything else tools made for a purpose and to a much lesser extent for show. Same can be seen in pre-industrial age firearms. The important moving parts and the barrel itself are made with exquisite care but the weapon as a whole might lack absolute finish. Which makes sense as it ultimately still is a pipe to release a lead ball propelled by blackpowder explosion meant to kill stuff before it kills you.
As always, absolute top notch stuff Matt! :)
As far as the wheel pommel vs the scent stopper pommel, I like the scent stopper pommel on a longsword because it looks better to me. A wheel pommel on an arming sword or a falchion looks good to me, but in cool factor a scent stopper on a longsword, or even a greatsword just looks better to me. Always has. Thanks for the video.
Keep it up Matt. I like the new chromakey and grats on 300k!
I'm a pommel-fondler in longsword.
I like to think of it as a ball and socket joint with the bottom hand. I find wheel pommels are comfortable to palm and give a good feeling for edge alignment.
I had a hand made wheel pommel sword based on a standard(ish) Norman style sword made for me. I had the grip made a little larger than my hand. I find that in some combat situations it is a very useful grip for my second hand. Love your vids. I am an amateur that is always happy to live and learn. Thanks Matt
Speaking as someone who made wooden swords for most of my life and am just getting into grinding real knives and daggers. I think a disc is really easy to make, you star with a square and just pound down the corners, or remove in the material from the corners. round, or knobbed, or mushroom shaped are harder to get the lines to match up shaping it freehand (Yes I can make a jig to do the same thing every time) domes are also fairly difficult to make even. An octagonal that tapers up and ends in a dome is a little easier than the others, but the circle is still easier. I have zero experience handling real swords, but I do have experience in making comfortable hilts and understand that wood is easier than metal to shape.
Great video.
The symmetry fixation can be as simple as modern swords are luxury objects and (most) modern sword wielders are hobbyist, while they were more just weapons before, and the extra time for the sword smith to make a perfectly symmetric sword would cost more than it was worth.
I was not sure that I wanted to watch this episode.... I was very glad I did. I learned some obscure stuff about swords.. how cool is that?
I've never had that problem with wheel pommels. I own several and love them.
the wheel aesthetic looks good too, because the circle contrasts hard against the lines and angles of the cross-guard + blade. (imo)
I like the work Roland Warzecha has done on this subject. Also you hit on the point that people modify things to work for them given the environment they are working in. An example is Kendo where rules and equipment alters the details of the technique to give the practitioner an edge so to speak. I've been looking at Pommel designs and grips for Tuareg swords as the Tuareg culture is rare in having a continuous history of sword usage from the middle ages so i feel there is a lot to learn there.
Just venturing a speculation:
It may be that earlier Viking/Frankish grips were shorter, and later grips were longer is that later medieval swordsmen were more likely to use their sword with gauntlets that made their hands wider than a bare hand would be, particularly armored gauntlets would be bulkier than a bare hand or a simple glove.
Another point is that wearing a gauntlet would reduce, or prevent, soreness caused by rubbing against or impacting the pommel.
I haven't been able to actually practice HEMA. My point of view has been: it's a counter weight, there are many shapes that are ergonomic, choose whichever one you think looks best. Fishtail pommels are my favorite in that context. I guess that with that perspective, wheel pommels were very generic and perhaps therefore boring. You know way more about this than I do, so I'll trust you that they're important for learning proper technique and it's not mainly about looks. I'd like to know why wheel pommels were so popular and what place other pommels have in this world/what contexts a different pommel is okay.
I've always liked wheel pommels personally. More so on arming swords but only if they are done well.
Very well put! Personally I love wheel pommels aswel as lobed pommel! The swords of the 8th to 13th century with their shorter grips and pommels are by far my favorites when it comes to medieval swords.
The only reason I ever use a viking-style with a longer handle is because my hand with the protective glove literally doesn't fit on the handle.
And yes, I know they didn't use gauntlets or anything like that, but I don't want to get my fingers broken, so I wear protective gloves. Yes, I'm sacrificing historical accuracy, but it's in the name of safety, not comfort.
I think because it allows for more counterweight adjustment, the wheel pommel being hollow. Weight can be adjusted interior, not blemishing exterior finish.
For me it's simply about aesthetics, I'm just not that big a fan of wheel pommels, but I don't find them harder to use in any way
Oh those delicate Longswording flowers... Lol.
Reeeeeeee
@@hieug.rection1920 I'm in the Longsword camp too but I enjoy ribbing folks if they're acting poncy.
In light of this:
"Luv me wheels."
"Luv me fish tails."
"Ate perfume plugs."
"Simple as."
@Rag The delicate longswording flowers of battle! 😆
@@indy2867 Fiore dei Libereeeeeeeeeeee!
This is brilliant. The best thing you’ve done since crystal maze.
I had check what "crystal maze" is and result made me laugh, good one.
what about gloves/gauntlets? would these swords have been used with them, and how would that affect how the pommel interacts with the hand?
I have wheel pommels on both my arming sword and my sidesword. I personally love them.
Love the wheel pommel remaining as the hilts and guards begin to become complex in the early modern era.
I will say when I was pening my arming sword the pommel ended up getting a cant to to the side where the tang bent slightly.
No interest in *owning* swords or other medieval weapons, but I've always had a real interest in the weapons themselves. I was the kid who would sneak off and find the historical weapons reference books in the library, back before RUclips existed. The content on this platform is just amazing, I'm so happy to keep learning about these things here.
Perhaps the pommels twisted the other way were for left-handed swordsmen, at least some of the time. There has to be quite a few ones where it was accidental and maybe they all were.
This occurred to me as well. I think it's even possible that particular gauntlets may have presented a fold or the like even for right handed wielders who liked the pommel to face into the palm. I know from golf, that many professional players have ribs under the grips to help with alignment, and those can be oriented to correspond to specific fingers, or a place on the palm side, etc. It's all about the feel the individual user wants.
Forge one with a fist and middle finger extended, for bonus points make the middle finger the handle of a small knife.
I prefer a pommel in the shape of a snarling wolf, whether it be Longclaw or a witcher's blade. :) For practice, I've got a nylon longsword from Purpleheart Armoury with the extended pommel.
"Change yourself." Brilliant, that.
Dude, the longer grip of viking era sword is mainly because back then, they most propably didnt use protective gloves. Those idk 9 cm grips or whatever are fine bare handed, but you cant grip it properly with gloves. Historical reeanactment or nor, you dont want to get your fingers broken. (And i dont mean just those hulk-like leather gloves)
I prefer those types of grips because it's another edge alignment hint. Even for longsword I want some flat edges on the pommel so that my trailing hand can use pressure rather than a turning motion to switch between front and back edge cuts.
Yup, the "handshake" grip is the way to go on Viking swords :)
Nice to know that when my Kingston Arms Crecy sword came with a misaligned pommel it was actually deliberate.
lol, I come to the absolute opposite conclusion:
A short grip with a viking or wheel pommel begs to be hammer-fisted. When the pommel and the guard encompass your hand correctly, you gain an insane amount of control. The sword basically always stays 90° to your arm and you can use your entire lower arm to control it.
From my experience anyways.
I want to see someone make a sword with a pommel that looks like those glass door knobs you find on old house for the 70's.
I'm not a sword guy, I'm a gun guy. But I do enjoy the fact that everyone in the weapons world gets into arguments over fairly insignificant technical differences.
I'm a huge fan of wheel pommels. They look great and feel very effective.
Hey I like all pummels as long as we're able to unscrew the pummel and throw it!
I like the wheel pommel Arming Swords. They just look nice.
Than you. You have inspired thoughts of ergonomics.
Wheel pommels are super cool.
. . . I had a dream about an egg shaped one the other day though.
Medieval man had slightly different body shapes than today. First, most people were probably thinner, most people worked harder, most people had more limitations on their diet (less vitamin C), and more arthritis. Second, I understand that it was common to grip with a finger over the quillion, eventually leading to the Pas d'âne or finger ring.
The twisting of the pommel might have been a matter of personal preferences.
Some people may have asked their armorers to modify their swords while others did not bother.
I do wonder if maybe a wheel pomel is just ever so slightly more secure than a scent stopper pomel. Or maybe that was just the aesthetic and fashion of the time
You say I have to use certain things? Get over it.