3 for 5……getting caught up! Thank you for this topic. I just had this conversation with my CFI! I was taught:below 1000 AGL, pitch best glide and land within 30 degrees of current heading. Above 1000 AGL, pitch for best glide and return to field. I saw a video of someone trying to prove they could make it back on field at 400 feet…….looked a bit scary!
Fantastic reminder. I always brief passengers that we are going to go 30 degrees left or right, or straight - whatever the best option is - if the engine fails on takeoff climb. Love these daily shorts!!! 2 for 2!
2/2 - When I transitioned to the cirrus I learned to brief engine failure on takeoff before every takeoff and it’s very beneficial in making quick decisions especially with altitudes at non sea level airports. I always convert to MSL. Another great video that I believe will save lives!
Jason also another thing I've heard in order to lessen the amount of altitude lost by not needing the nose held as high for airspeed in the steep turn is to add 10 degrees of flaps which makes that stall speed better allowing you to turn around more efficiently as you go back towards the runway. As well as that 10 degrees of flaps doesn't typically add a ton of drag to airplane but can help with the production of lift.
It also depends on how the engine fails. An engine at idle is creating a tiny bit of thrust and basically no drag. If your engine fails because of fuel starvation (too many laps in the pattern), you're going to be windmilling which will add enough drag that any idea you have about having "practiced" the impossible turn is laughable. There is no way to simluate that much drag without actually turning off the engine. If the engine seizes, that's a whole different ball of wax because you have a dead stick right in front of you creating a bit of drag but no thrust at all--again, a much worse condition that your "practice" with the engine at idle. Basically the only way your "practice" impossible turn would count for anything is if you get a power reduction by something like losing a single cylinder. There was a video on Baron Pilot's channel recently where Kim and her instructor lost a cylinder and they made the impossible turn--with partial power. I love Jason's approach here that there are just too many variables and the reality is that you just can't simulate the worst case of a completely dead (seized or windmilling) engine because the difference between those and an idling engine under those circumstances is pretty significant. This is a time critical emergency where every second you spend trying to make the impossible turn work reduces the time you have to make a relatively straight ahead off-field landing work. For me, if I have 1,000 or more AGL, I'll go back. Less, I'm straight ahead. Oh yeah, 2 for 2. =)
2 for 2. Thanks M0A! I have practiced that in MSFS 2020 using C172 w/full fuel and have made it from as low as 500' (barely, with stall horn blaring on/off!) I've done several engine out on crosswind at mid field during my current PPL training. Great way to learn the gliding characteristics of the C172. I came up short the first try.... I extended downwind normally - oops! Glad the engine was still running!
A pilot at my home feild lost power on departure at about 500 feet and attemped to turn back, he was in a homebuilt version of an Extra 300 which has a worse glide ratio than a rock, he made it to the road that paralels the runway and hit at such steep angle the plane became a fireball on the road. It was sad day at wasilla airport. Hes doin aerobatics with the angels now, rest in peace.
It's a shame that we need to keep beating this into people. Standard takeoff briefing: Any issues during the roll, power to idle, stop straight ahead. Engine failure on climb out less than 1000 agl, pitch for glide, land straight ahead. Engine failure at 1000 agl and above, pitch for glide, attempt to make the runway, but have a backup in case it's not possible. No steep turns, flaps only when the landing area is made if time/workload permits. Fly the plane all the way to the ground.
This would be in an ideal situation. The airport environment has to be taken into consideration heavily. Straight ahead under 1000ft will not work all the time so that’s why it is important to know what altitude you feel comfortable with turning back while factoring in external conditions such as DA. Should never approach every takeoff thinking it will just be “standard”
@@jakeoesterreich8037 straight ahead under 1000ft will prevent you from doing something stupid and stall spinning to your death. The plane belongs to the insurance company, all you need to do is fly it to the crash site. FYI, straight ahead can be slight left to right deviations to avoid obstacles. Look at GA fatalities and tell me the percentage of people that stall spin….
As a glider pilot, I can’t imagine to always have the fear of not being able to turn back when you are below 1000ft (or in some cases even higher). In a glider, 200ft is enough to successfully turn back and land on the runway you just took off from. Having just one engine and a glide ratio below 1 to 20 seems very limiting with your options in case the engine fails
I’m 2 for 2. Thanks for the video. I would’ve appreciated a side by side graphic or gps track to show where you were in relation to the “runway” and “ground” during the turn.
@@coachraythepilot5759 Time to use tools like #CloudAhoy Debrief. Very rich source of DATA. Olympians improve their performance with digital tools now, and so should all pilots bc the cost of failure is too high.
Two for two. My rule of thumb is 900' AGL, based on tests out at the practice area. Since my home airport is at 1100' ASL, 900' AGL is when the altimeter points straight up...
Of course if you flying a piper cub or an aeronica champ starting at almost sea level with cool weather may be able to make it. If in a cherokee 235 or mooney probably not. The best bet is to plan an almost straight ahead survivable landing spot. Not much time to guess at that point. I experienced a partial failure not able to really climb out but able to maintain about 800 ft at 80 mph was able to make very shallow turns and get back to land on the runway.
So true. The results are going to be different say, going back up for a night landing after a day of flying, but plenty of fuel for a couple touch and go's right? Or was it first flight of the morning, at max takeoff? At 500' AGL, yeah if at max...looking straight ahead keeping bank to a minimum because I can't afford to lose what little vertical component of lift, I have left.
I’m more like 2 on 2 than 2 for 2, but all caught up now; thanks for this. Btw, my CFI (and/or EPs for loss of power on takeoff) calls for a runway turn back IF we can see the runway off our wing (i.e., on crosswind). For my home airport, that’s anywhere from 700-900’ AGL depending on when the engine quits. Given all the various factors you mentioned, let alone time of year, I’m genuinely dubious of a successful turn back.
The math/physics is different if you are already crosswind and 700-900' AGL - so 90 degrees less turn on the turn back MAY account for the 300-100 less altitude. Nothing beats pre-planning your response ahead of time! I brief engine out on take-off every time.
Isn’t the gravest danger in attempting the impossible turn the lethal stall spin that results from trying to overbank or stretch the glide when you’re running out of altitude?
Here’s a question: We’re always taught that we should take off and climb in line with the runway. What if our climb out was slightly angled to the right? This way if you have an engine failure and have to do a power off 180, there is less of a turn back to align yourself with the runway.
I believe you, it is impossible. At my current 2000' home field many have landed in an orchard on the dep. end of 27. I think they all survived, but the planes, no so much. The reason they lived - I believe - is because they landed under control, not trying the impossible [hairpin] turn. That said, a close friend of mine completed the impossible dead engine turn, but this was in an RV-8 that had much better performance than most GA planes. So, it is best to have a plan about when you will try it in what airplane and at what field and altitude.
When I did my fixed wing transition my instructor showed me the "impossible turn" was possible starting at 800' AGL. That was HIM flying, not me. I couldn't have done it and still wouldn't try it years later. It was a very aggressive nose down attitude to maintain airspeed, and a lot of bank angle. Obviously I knew he was going to pull it off or he never would have put us in the situation, but he was also a probably 20,000 hour CFII. I think his request to do it freaked out the tower controller more than it did me.
Nice video, I think you're right - it depends. Your airspeed was about 95mph by the end of your turn to north which makes me think a bit more airspeed could have been traded for altitude (in a perfect world with no risk of turning yourself into spaghetti). A lot of slip in such a steep turn. Although you wouldn't make your double turn for line up, you'd certainly clear the fence and possibly have medical services, other pilots and airport services when you did touch down. Landing in a field in Aus you'd be doing it in sand, sea or rough AF fields, a 1 ft deep hole in the field would cause all kinds of mess.
2 for 2 - If turning back, you need to know all the factors in the PAVE checklist, have practiced it in different conditions, and have briefed it shortly before takeoff. You need to lower the nose a lot (could be close to 30 degrees) and I like a 60 degree bank. If you're not used to maneuvering this way don't try it.
@@gringoloco8576 Yep, at a 60 degree bank stall speed increases by over 40 percent! (Load factor is doubled and stall speed increases in proportion to the square root of the load factor.)
I understand the explanation of the video about the impossible turn. I just have a question about the scenario. Question: On the failed engine takeoff... would it be better to take a 45 degree right first to get off center runway, then the 180 left turn to get back on center runway for emergency landing?
I would guess you have a simulator available to try various profiles. I wonder what an immediate pitch down and simultaneously roll into a 75* bank while maintaining a safe airspeed (basically a diving turn) would do to keep you closer to the centerline. Once rolling out that inertia from the excess airspeed could be returned to best glide speed and not require so many turning adjustments back to the runway.
Your stall speed goes up SIGNIFICANTLY the more you bank.. You need to go practice at altitude to see what stall speed a 75 deg bank gives you. It will prob be around 100 knots+ stall in a small plane like a Cessna. I use about 50/60 bank max and I know my stall speeds at that bank angle and various flap settings by memory. Very dangerous to do at low altitude, know your plane. -CFI
I did it with my C-172 with the head wind and I must tell you it is impossible when you have two persons on board with full fuel. I barely approached to the runway aligned let alone I have to avoid ground obstructions around it.
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Taking density altitude and wind direction and strength into account are great tips and reminders. Thanks, Jason!
3 for 5……getting caught up!
Thank you for this topic. I just had this conversation with my CFI! I was taught:below 1000 AGL, pitch best glide and land within 30 degrees of current heading. Above 1000 AGL, pitch for best glide and return to field.
I saw a video of someone trying to prove they could make it back on field at 400 feet…….looked a bit scary!
This is Troy Johnson. Thank you for these videos and yes I am two for two. You are awesome man.
Nicely done! I especially like the way you brought Turns Around a Point and S-Turns into the explanation (yet another reason to practice them).
Two for two. The headwind into a tailwind conversion is rarely discussed. Thanks for this.
Fantastic reminder. I always brief passengers that we are going to go 30 degrees left or right, or straight - whatever the best option is - if the engine fails on takeoff climb.
Love these daily shorts!!!
2 for 2!
2 for 2 and caught up now. I appreciate your video as a reminder that an engine can fail below 1000' and to be thinking about it before each flight.
2/2 - When I transitioned to the cirrus I learned to brief engine failure on takeoff before every takeoff and it’s very beneficial in making quick decisions especially with altitudes at non sea level airports. I always convert to MSL. Another great video that I believe will save lives!
Jason also another thing I've heard in order to lessen the amount of altitude lost by not needing the nose held as high for airspeed in the steep turn is to add 10 degrees of flaps which makes that stall speed better allowing you to turn around more efficiently as you go back towards the runway. As well as that 10 degrees of flaps doesn't typically add a ton of drag to airplane but can help with the production of lift.
That is called, LIFT FLAPS. I used to do them when cropdusting.
Thanks for all the info and support!!!
2/2 …and this has become an annual tradition. Thank you MzeroA-Team!
2 for 2. Engine quit always freaks me out. But this lesson gives me a confidence. Thank you MZEROA ❤
It also depends on how the engine fails. An engine at idle is creating a tiny bit of thrust and basically no drag. If your engine fails because of fuel starvation (too many laps in the pattern), you're going to be windmilling which will add enough drag that any idea you have about having "practiced" the impossible turn is laughable. There is no way to simluate that much drag without actually turning off the engine. If the engine seizes, that's a whole different ball of wax because you have a dead stick right in front of you creating a bit of drag but no thrust at all--again, a much worse condition that your "practice" with the engine at idle.
Basically the only way your "practice" impossible turn would count for anything is if you get a power reduction by something like losing a single cylinder. There was a video on Baron Pilot's channel recently where Kim and her instructor lost a cylinder and they made the impossible turn--with partial power.
I love Jason's approach here that there are just too many variables and the reality is that you just can't simulate the worst case of a completely dead (seized or windmilling) engine because the difference between those and an idling engine under those circumstances is pretty significant. This is a time critical emergency where every second you spend trying to make the impossible turn work reduces the time you have to make a relatively straight ahead off-field landing work.
For me, if I have 1,000 or more AGL, I'll go back. Less, I'm straight ahead.
Oh yeah, 2 for 2. =)
2 for 2. Thanks M0A! I have practiced that in MSFS 2020 using C172 w/full fuel and have made it from as low as 500' (barely, with stall horn blaring on/off!) I've done several engine out on crosswind at mid field during my current PPL training. Great way to learn the gliding characteristics of the C172. I came up short the first try.... I extended downwind normally - oops! Glad the engine was still running!
That is called, LIFT FLAPS. I used to do them when cropdusting...
2/2. I performed a teardrop after takeoff in a PA-28 160 🎉early in my training but not since. Thanks!
Might consider doing it again. Update your personal minimums for the maneuver
Coach Ray is killin' it with the graphics!
2 for 2. Thank you so much! Your explanation of how impossible the turn is was perfect.
2 - 4- 2. Great points for pre-takeoff regarding weight, weather, wind etc.
A pilot at my home feild lost power on departure at about 500 feet and attemped to turn back, he was in a homebuilt version of an Extra 300 which has a worse glide ratio than a rock, he made it to the road that paralels the runway and hit at such steep angle the plane became a fireball on the road. It was sad day at wasilla airport. Hes doin aerobatics with the angels now, rest in peace.
Two of two - as always, great information and reminders! I brief engine out response before each take-off.
It's a shame that we need to keep beating this into people. Standard takeoff briefing: Any issues during the roll, power to idle, stop straight ahead. Engine failure on climb out less than 1000 agl, pitch for glide, land straight ahead. Engine failure at 1000 agl and above, pitch for glide, attempt to make the runway, but have a backup in case it's not possible. No steep turns, flaps only when the landing area is made if time/workload permits. Fly the plane all the way to the ground.
This would be in an ideal situation. The airport environment has to be taken into consideration heavily. Straight ahead under 1000ft will not work all the time so that’s why it is important to know what altitude you feel comfortable with turning back while factoring in external conditions such as DA. Should never approach every takeoff thinking it will just be “standard”
@@jakeoesterreich8037 straight ahead under 1000ft will prevent you from doing something stupid and stall spinning to your death. The plane belongs to the insurance company, all you need to do is fly it to the crash site. FYI, straight ahead can be slight left to right deviations to avoid obstacles. Look at GA fatalities and tell me the percentage of people that stall spin….
Great job. I too liked the attention to the cross wind and downwind effects on the turn. Not something most will think of in the moment of crises.
L agree with you on this Jason. Plane do not flight well in hot weather great Jason mate thank you
2/2....Thanks for today's video. Makes sense...better safe than sorry. thank you Jason
As a glider pilot, I can’t imagine to always have the fear of not being able to turn back when you are below 1000ft (or in some cases even higher). In a glider, 200ft is enough to successfully turn back and land on the runway you just took off from. Having just one engine and a glide ratio below 1 to 20 seems very limiting with your options in case the engine fails
Two for Two Jason! Thank you Brother!
Two for two. Great demonstration. Thank you, Jason.
G,day Jason from Sydney Australia.
Depending on what the plane's altimeter wants to indicate: and its accuracy.
"I'm too for two" !!!
🦉🍯
2 for 2. I'm curious about the bank angle vs. loss of altitude. At what point do the two overlap?
45 degree bank.
I’m 2 for 2. Thanks for the video. I would’ve appreciated a side by side graphic or gps track to show where you were in relation to the “runway” and “ground” during the turn.
I thought this exact same thing after watching. I’ll make a note for next year!
@@coachraythepilot5759 Time to use tools like #CloudAhoy Debrief. Very rich source of DATA. Olympians improve their performance with digital tools now, and so should all pilots bc the cost of failure is too high.
Here we go! I missed day 1 but will go back and watch.
Your videos are GREAT!!! Has made me a better pilot exponentially
2 for 2...totally agree Jason!
2 for 2 Thank you Jason! The ground school is awesome!
2/2. In Canada I fly Ultralights, LSA or Experimental in the USA. 500’ is the minimum for the one plane i fly depending on obstacles.
2/2 thanks Jason and crew!!!!!
Two for two.
My rule of thumb is 900' AGL, based on tests out at the practice area. Since my home airport is at 1100' ASL, 900' AGL is when the altimeter points straight up...
2 for 2 here. Great videos and look forward to more..
2 for 2! Great explanations and reminders of all the variables that come into play.
Of course if you flying a piper cub or an aeronica champ starting at almost sea level with cool weather may be able to make it. If in a cherokee 235 or mooney probably not. The best bet is to plan an almost straight ahead survivable landing spot. Not much time to guess at that point. I experienced a partial failure not able to really climb out but able to maintain about 800 ft at 80 mph was able to make very shallow turns and get back to land on the runway.
2/2 - Thank you as always!! Great videos and explanations
2/2 thankyou!! Love the “Blessed”
So true. The results are going to be different say, going back up for a night landing after a day of flying, but plenty of fuel for a couple touch and go's right? Or was it first flight of the morning, at max takeoff? At 500' AGL, yeah if at max...looking straight ahead keeping bank to a minimum because I can't afford to lose what little vertical component of lift, I have left.
Two for two. Love your videos and how easy it is to pickup the information.
I’m more like 2 on 2 than 2 for 2, but all caught up now; thanks for this. Btw, my CFI (and/or EPs for loss of power on takeoff) calls for a runway turn back IF we can see the runway off our wing (i.e., on crosswind). For my home airport, that’s anywhere from 700-900’ AGL depending on when the engine quits. Given all the various factors you mentioned, let alone time of year, I’m genuinely dubious of a successful turn back.
The math/physics is different if you are already crosswind and 700-900' AGL - so 90 degrees less turn on the turn back MAY account for the 300-100 less altitude. Nothing beats pre-planning your response ahead of time! I brief engine out on take-off every time.
DA and winds make a big difference.
Isn’t the gravest danger in attempting the impossible turn the lethal stall spin that results from trying to overbank or stretch the glide when you’re running out of altitude?
Yes. You're almost certain to die stalling the airplane, but your survival odds are pretty good if you make an off-field landing under control.
2/2 practised this with my CFI years ago. There's a good reason why it's called the impossible turn.... 😁
2 for 2 - 1000' AGL is my number as well, even though I'm basically at sea level. The fewer the variables to think about, the better.
2 for 2 Many thanks to you and staff for the awesome production.
2-2Jason, great to see this course again, Always great Refresher.
Thank you sir
Well done. Lots to consider.
2 for 2- Great material and helpful tips
Here’s a question:
We’re always taught that we should take off and climb in line with the runway. What if our climb out was slightly angled to the right? This way if you have an engine failure and have to do a power off 180, there is less of a turn back to align yourself with the runway.
Jason. Please cover some training details regarding carb ice. Recognition, solution procedures, and what to expect while it's clearing.
2 for 2
Thank you, great topic!
I believe you, it is impossible. At my current 2000' home field many have landed in an orchard on the dep. end of 27. I think they all survived, but the planes, no so much. The reason they lived - I believe - is because they landed under control, not trying the impossible [hairpin] turn.
That said, a close friend of mine completed the impossible dead engine turn, but this was in an RV-8 that had much better performance than most GA planes. So, it is best to have a plan about when you will try it in what airplane and at what field and altitude.
2/2, playing catch up…and the answer is “it depends” 😊
2 for 2! Another great video - thank you!
2 for 2. Thanks Jason. Great insight!
2 for 2. Thank you for these!!
2 for 2. Love your videos!
2 for 2, Thank you Jason!
When I did my fixed wing transition my instructor showed me the "impossible turn" was possible starting at 800' AGL. That was HIM flying, not me. I couldn't have done it and still wouldn't try it years later. It was a very aggressive nose down attitude to maintain airspeed, and a lot of bank angle. Obviously I knew he was going to pull it off or he never would have put us in the situation, but he was also a probably 20,000 hour CFII.
I think his request to do it freaked out the tower controller more than it did me.
Great reality check!
Nice video, I think you're right - it depends.
Your airspeed was about 95mph by the end of your turn to north which makes me think a bit more airspeed could have been traded for altitude (in a perfect world with no risk of turning yourself into spaghetti). A lot of slip in such a steep turn.
Although you wouldn't make your double turn for line up, you'd certainly clear the fence and possibly have medical services, other pilots and airport services when you did touch down. Landing in a field in Aus you'd be doing it in sand, sea or rough AF fields, a 1 ft deep hole in the field would cause all kinds of mess.
2 for 2 - can’t wait to see the next
Excellent info !!!
2 for 2. Thank you Jason.
2 for 2, another great video MzeroA!
2 for 2 Great job! Thanks!
I’m 2/2!!! Great class happy new year
2 for 2, plan to be 31 for 31 ;). Thanks Jason!
Really good information
2 for 2 - If turning back, you need to know all the factors in the PAVE checklist, have practiced it in different conditions, and have briefed it shortly before takeoff. You need to lower the nose a lot (could be close to 30 degrees) and I like a 60 degree bank. If you're not used to maneuvering this way don't try it.
Also know your stall speeds at various bank angles with and without flaps. They go up a lot w bank.
@@gringoloco8576 Yep, at a 60 degree bank stall speed increases by over 40 percent! (Load factor is doubled and stall speed increases in proportion to the square root of the load factor.)
Jasón, excellent videos (2 out of 2) and will be 31 out of 31 by end of month
Thank you for your awesome videos!
Checking in
Weather, Weight, Altitude, Aircraft and Skill…. So land ahead!!
2 for 2, great video as usual, thank you!
2 for 2...Thanks Jason!
Two for two thank you 🙏🏻
2 for 2... Never thought about the 45 degree turn back to the runway, and then another one to line up. I wonder if 1000 feet is even enough?
I understand the explanation of the video about the impossible turn. I just have a question about the scenario.
Question: On the failed engine takeoff... would it be better to take a 45 degree right first to get off center runway, then the 180 left turn to get back on center runway for emergency landing?
Solid content as always!👍
Great info as always
2 for 2! Nice explanation.
2 for 2! Thanks Jason
2-2 maybe good landing spot is say 70° to one side, can identify that before take off, to be ready
2/2 keep it coming. Are we due for an updated audio version of “pass your ifr cheride” on audible?
I would guess you have a simulator available to try various profiles. I wonder what an immediate pitch down and simultaneously roll into a 75* bank while maintaining a safe airspeed (basically a diving turn) would do to keep you closer to the centerline. Once rolling out that inertia from the excess airspeed could be returned to best glide speed and not require so many turning adjustments back to the runway.
Your stall speed goes up SIGNIFICANTLY the more you bank.. You need to go practice at altitude to see what stall speed a 75 deg bank gives you. It will prob be around 100 knots+ stall in a small plane like a Cessna. I use about 50/60 bank max and I know my stall speeds at that bank angle and various flap settings by memory. Very dangerous to do at low altitude, know your plane.
-CFI
Two 4 two. Jason, you do a great job btw
2 for 2. Great one.
At our local
Airport taking off on 21 we could come back and land on 33 if engine failure above 750 ft. Above airdrome height
2 for 2, because a safe pilot is always YouTubing
Good morning Jason ✈️👍day 2 and 2 /4/2 🤓
Two for two. Thanks so much
I did it with my C-172 with the head wind and I must tell you it is impossible when you have two persons on board with full fuel. I barely approached to the runway aligned let alone I have to avoid ground obstructions around it.
2/2. Thank you.
2 for 2 thanks for this great content
2for2 what is the best bank angle and coordination combo to minimize the loss of altitude, in, lets say medium weight and calm wind?