Ya i don't know why people say they want to put a comparison up on two different engine and one is 50 more CC's then the other. Then they want to say this engine beat this engine. I know he didn't do that here, but so many times I have seen where they say we are gonna see which is better a 351 Cleveland or a 351 Clevor. The they leave the Cleveland completely stock while throwing a ton of after market parts at the Clevor. For once I would like to see both the Cleveland and the Clevor get the same amount of attention. Same Cams Duration, same heads and Valve sizes, same style intakes same attention to the oiling systems, same Carbs and most of all Same Cubic inches or as close as they can be and same compression. I want to see a good and fair comparison between the two Engines. I know you can't build a Clevor with factory parts because of the heads but lets make it Fair as it can be. Then lets see what HP and Torque these engines make and who makes more.
When I was at SAMTECH in Houston. We built 2 clevor engines. We placed 2nd and 4th in the Engine Masters challenge in 2007 and 8. We also built a 400" sbc and placed 3rd with it. Some fun stuff. I have all the engine build sheets and worked on those chi heads alot. Miss it 4 real.
I'll see what I can dig up. We also built a 433 lsx that made 1030hp NA @9700 while I was there. There are some videos out there of it in action. Thanks
I remember the SAM Mustang with the 400ci, big bore, relatively small stroke motor with Edelbrock Victor Heads. It was pretty impressive, running 8's naturally aspirated
Factory 4V Cleveland heads prepped right make an insane amount of power on a stroker. I built a 434 iron 4V Cleveland with some bowl work and cleaned up runners for a friend using after market Arrow block , street roller cam 260/266 on 110 LC , 665 lift.. 11.1 CR, TFC intake manifold 1000 cfm 4150 pro system carb . Running pump fuel it produced 672 HP with 582 Ft/lbs., beautiful street manners and gobs of torque throughout the rpm range Down the track we’ll replace camshaft with a 272 at .050 , raise comp by half a point and port the intake. It’ll make 715-720+. CHI are great heads but if you have iron 4V’s and building a stroker they will work very well indeed.
great work Richard love your video's I watch them all and I love how you love Clevelands ! I am running 410ci with stock 4V closed chambers and solid flat tappet 244/252 in my 72 Gran Torino here in Australia and it pulls to the moon!!!
Lifter bore bushings fix the cleveland oil system once and for all. It also has smaller mains which are less friction and capable of higher rpms. Or you just go buy a new T Meyer Cleveland block and you are done.
@@kblackav8or ???? Are you arguing the 351/400C has better aftermarket support than the 351W? Cleveland fan boy alert. 100,000's more 351W's were made from 1969 to 1996 than Cleveland family.. Early 80's Ford Trucks still had a 351M .. but just a couple of years. Certainly no Cleveland between 1987 and 1996. Certainly no Clevelands in the #1 selling pickup in the USA for that time period. The aftermarket is driven by what will sell ... It's not a robot with a Head/Piston equation. No Cheap Roller Cams.. either.. for the Cleveland.. you'll need all aftermarket to get it. There are 351W's in my local Pick A Part.. today.. no question. Cleveland?? Only if some ancient iron came in. 1985 was 35 years ago.. How many 35 yr old cars hitting the scrap yards today?
@@granbordeaux6955 NO not saying that. I will say this, it is the more race oriented engine. In fact all the SVO blocks Ford was racing in the 80's and 90's were a hybrid. Cleveland dimensions with a improved oiling system and a W front timing cover. I know, I run one. The cleveland head design is superior to anything wheezer and you cannot argue otherwise. Canted valves win. You can't spin your W block as hard as you can a C block. Those huge mains slow you down. Had they kept the smaller 302 mains yes but they didn't. The 351W was with exception to 3 years of production a non performance engine. 69/70 4v 351W and the 94 or 95 Cobra Mustang that had it. That's it. Of course there are more parts but keep your wheezer heads and your wet manifold. I am not after a pickup engine. My SVO G351 block will outperform your factory W block or a factory C block. Leave them both 351, you build with inline valve W parts and I will build with canted valve C parts. I win every time. That Roush guy and that Glidden guy beat a lot of Mopars and Chevies and neither ever ran a wheezer.
@@gergatron7000 Most...but not All. There's an increasingly woken generation of hard core USA and Canucks that do know. Like the first 57 cc closed chamber 9.206 inch deck US built 302 Cleveland Engine with its 3 inch crank for the 1971 230 and 240 hp 2bbl V8s, the first building of these Hemi 6 engines was also the USA. These days, the All Par website shows the A series bore spacings and D series Dodge truck origins and the Highland Park principal engineering that shows that it was not a solely Mike Stacey development in South Australia. It's a US engine made on Small Block A and LA 4.46 bore spacings, with non cross flow Polyspheric heads and once the design concept and tooling were made by Halenback and his team, the whole shooting match was then transferred to Tonsley Park, Chrysler Australia Prty Ltd. The US guys saw through the misinformation that it was a 4.38 bore spacing 232/258/4.0 AMC or Jeep six with a poly head. Nothing is shared in design or engineering or tooling. The Slant six, it's more a heavy rework of the old 25 inch long flat head Dodge 228/250.6/ 265 truck in line six. The Hemi 6, it was very much a Polyspheric A with no cross flow.
@@deanstevenson6527 yes I have read that it was an abandoned US truck design, understandably built on V8 architecture (318 pistons I believe), makes plenty of sense and I don't know why other manufacturers didn't employ a more modular design like this throughout their engine ranges. I understand that they were abandoned in the US because fuel economy wasn't an issue at the time and the performance goals were easily met with the 318 and 360. What the Aussies in the "Hemi" 6 development can take credit for is just the sheer performance squeezed from it that could put many V8s to shame, and the ingenuity of the people involved to be able to achieve this on a tiny fraction of the budget it would have taken to develop it to this extent in the US is what is so impressive.
This 385 Cleveland seems like there’s a lot of power left somewhere. If you compare the specs to a 6.2, the rec port heads don’t flow quite as much and a 469 cam is 9 or 10° shorter, but it makes much more hp and torque. So, flat tappet lobe vs roller, valve springs, and the LS3 intake vs a single plane... I guess numbers don’t lie, and everything counts when you look at the final results! Very interesting data, Richard. Thanks!
I love these comparison tests. I watch them multiple times. The Cleveland is an interesting engine, I’ve never owned one but I love them on principle- big head flow= big power! I would like to see some big block mopar stuff, 5.2/5.9 magnum would be interesting as well.
@@mchristrokay but those are not big blocks and there's two series of Mopar big blocks the B engines and the RB engines both of which are no longer manufactured except for aftermarket blocks
3 months ago I bought the 408 clevor setup that took me for my first mid 6 second 1/8 pass in a fox coupe when I was 11 in 2000 or 2001. I bought it to freshen up and stick a s488 that I already have in my Fairmont wagon I turbo ls swapped and went 5.90s before the third 5.3 scattered and focused on the race car. But what started out as a freshen up turned into basically only the old speedmaster heads&intake and crank are the only original parts from the OG build it's got really good machine work some eagle rods d.s.s pistons, I had the heads completely rebuilt and ports touched up 11 to 1 comp ratio the plan was to do a blow thru setup on e85 and just have a another stupid fast street car l love my race car but 850-900hp street cars are amazing. Anyway the damn build about broke me the motor and power glide with a jw bell are already in the car but I'm about to swap a pretty rowdy nitrous friendly cam and throw a nice plate on it and call it done until I want more or my wallet recuperates
@@I_like_turtles_67 when I had my shop going in the 80's I told my customers to deep six their 360/390's for a cleveland 2 barrel in their trucks. All were happy about my recommendation. Yikes ! I junked 100 or more FE's. Now I feel guilty.
Windsor Block/Clevor for me- Roller Cam Block... Better support. Unless a neighbor got tired of his Pantera motor and dropped it off in my driveway. Then I'd be stylin my Pantera Valve covers.
My 1973 LTD came with a 400M. Not wanting to be left behind, I got a pair of 1970 4V head set, made my own spacer plates, and had the block bored, balanced and sleeved to 4.03 bore and a 4.00 stroke. With TRW forged flat top heads, and 63 cc heads, I believe it came to a 11.00 CR. I put in a CC 290 High lift short duration cam, and a 750 Holley on a Dominator intake. With 4:11 9 inch rear, my 73 LTD could easily run low 13'ies! Today, the car is gone, but the engine and C6 remain. I am looking for another frame to put it in. The only thing I am wrestling with is, DO I go with new aluminum heads, rollers, HEI, etc....., or do I just keep it "Old School" along with my Mallory Dual point? What says the Class?
THANKS RICHARD VERY HELPFULL WAS THINKING OF BUYING A 427 SHORT BLOCK FROM STV THIS GIVES ME A GOOD IDEA AND H P TARGET RANGES WITH HEADS AND CAMS GOOD VIDEO MORE WINDSOR CLEVELAND STUFF
ABSOLUTELY everything about that combo is likeable. I had a 351c 4v in my 1970 Mustang Mach 1. The problem was the oiling system. In 1974 no one had yet made a High Volume oil pumps. I had 2 of them come apart because of that. The motor I built for my son's in the 19 Starsky and Hutch clone we did use a high volume oil pump and never could destroy that motor. MY Plans will probably use the 3.6 Blue Thunder cylinder heads on a World Products Man O War block to build a 427 Clevor. Hopefully it'll make about 750 streetable Horsepower.
@@richardholdener1727 I ran a set of out of the box 218 on 410 inch They checked in at 221 cc and a calculated cross section of 2.66 They flowed 331 at .7 and went backwards Ran 9.54 at 139 and change on alcohol fuel 3050 lbs with driver Cam was similar to your except .775-.757 lift 108 sep 104/112 we ran it 108/108
They don't flow that well- American 2V heads.. about the Level of a Chevy Double Hump.. 200cfm. You could get 200cfm out of a ported set of junkyard Explorer/GT40 heads with alot less headache. 2V Cleveland heads are also Open Chamber .. read Big Chamber Volume = Low Compression. So Piston replacement to get decent compression is a possibility w 2v Cleveland heads. 1.84 valve 351W factory heads flow about 185cfm.. If your goal was 1hp per cube on a 351w.. You'd only need a cam swap as the factory 351w heads would support it. The only place a 2V Cleveland head combo would make sense would be on a 351C if your goal was 1ph per Cube-ish. In that case you could simply do Cam/Piston and perhaps a head shave and put out a 350hp-395hp motor.
@@richardholdener1727 I had DOOE back in the day. Misread info off Stan Weiss then.. mentioned C90E.. then just said 351W.. Since it didn't specify C9OE or DOOE - I assumed late model 351W.
@@richardholdener1727 No 1hp /per cubic inch with a 1996 roller cam 351W w stock heads? .. I bet it would get there. Cam, Head Shave 10:1 , Carb n Manifold .. Dirt Track or XFI'ish spec cam. Mid 500's lift and 225@ .50 dur minimum. 108 - 110 LSA. Only need 175cfm/flow .. perhaps less with enough draw/demand/signal.
I would like to see the Dyno results of the 383 Cleveland with the stock 4v head. a 400m with high compression 484 comp cam and 4v head would be awesome to. thanks
a clevor with 13:1 domes, a big solid roller, destroked to 339, with a sheet metal intake and dual dominators on M1 methanol, lets try that one, should be a nice little 10,000 rpm screamer.
Actually it did receive a ton of development, but just not in street cars. The NASCAR C3 and D3 engines were the ultimate form of the Cleveland. But i agree, it's a crime that Ford Racing only sells Windsor crate engines.
First off thank you for the awesome videos. You have answered alot of questions about real hp numbers I always wanted to know. To be hounest your doing what I always wanted to to as a kid growing up. Still is a dream to play in dyno room with a bunch of classics. But if you can you should Test the factory stroker. Witch is the 400. In stock 2v form then with 4v open chamber heads, 4v close chamber, then go all out with the 3v heads. Then if you can get ahold of a set of Aussie closed chamber 2v 302c heads. If there not ported test them on a 306 w or a 347w. If there ported test them on a stock 351C then the 383c. I had a chance to get a set of the 302c closed chamber 2v heads in 2018. at the time I couldnt afford the $300. They were complete just needed rockers. They had been oiled and wrapped sitting on a shelf since the mid 80s.
Love a Cleveland any day of the week, but the tough look of a Clevor engine is something else again. Ford should have produced a 351 Boss with the Windsor block, would have saved them the tooling to produce a new block, just cast the heads.
I would think if the only difference was Windsor or Cleveland block there might be a small difference in intake runner length between deck heights 9.2C 9.5W, from there it would come down to parasitic loss of the rotating assembly. With smaller crank journals I would think the Cleveland block would have a advantage.
They both have issues. Cleveland has cylinder wall stability and Windsor has main web weakness. Smaller mains on the Cleveland is definitely better. but the extra weight of the "cast in" timing cover area is not. Windsor is stroker friendly. I could go on. Pick your poison.
I'm curious why some people build a "Clevor" (Cleveland 4V heads on a Windsor block) instead of just using a 351C engine. What are the advantages of going the "Clevor" route and how much cost does it add in modifications and special components (intake) to make it work?
The 351M and 400 are the natural bases for almost factory 434 strokers. 40 thou over and a steel Moldex crank, 752 hp at 7500 rpm with 4V heads and dual Quads. There is a large weight penalty for a 10.3 inch deck engine over the 9.21 deck Cleveland 351 and 9.5 inch deck Windsor, but even with its tiny 4 inch bores, it's lighter and almost as good as the Dart 4.125 race block. And factory from a junked 70-82 Full-size Ford or 1978-1982 F truck or Bronco.
Richard can you do a Valve Spring comparison it seems we run out of spring pressure alot , I like to see just a stiffer spring comparison on the same engine. Arent you curious what a simple spring change is worth
IMO, unless you are building an all out race engine a good after market Windsor based head is more than adequate. The additional cost of a Cleveland just isn’t justifiable.
My father and i built a 4v Cleveland while his in law built a Windsor with a.m. aluminum heads. The build costs were within a few hundred bucks and my dads Cleveland was every bit as responsive/streetable(both in f series pick ups) AND smoked Jims from digs/rolls/everywhere else. That's facts.
Richard Holdener That CHI head flow is fine but you can't use off the shelf "chevy grind" cams for a Cleveland. They require completely different valve events and lobe sep. I know the 383 was done a while ago so we cant change that but that 383 should have destroyed my 359C with the extra cubes. My 359C has a Bullet solid flat cam 239/243@.050 .611/.605 lift but on a 107 lobe. Now my Trick Flow 225cc heads do flow. The flow card TEA sent me they flow .500 lift Intake 333cfm Exhaust 241cfm and at .600 lift flow 355cfm Exhaust 259.6cfm. Mine dynoed 520p@6300 453tq@5600 . Mine with 383 kit would easily be close to or at 600hp but with my cam not your Comp Cam Happy you showed some more Cleveland stuff though
@@richardholdener1727 I would not call it a wrong cam because they do open and close the valves but off the shelf cams for a Cleveland are basically copies of common cam grinds. Clevelands require different cam timing and lobe sep than generic shelf cams. Just so you know, I'm not undermining you at all, you are awesome but it is what it is. Give Brent Lykins a call when you have some time - if you ever have time with all your cool stuff you do. Brent has recently started his own RUclips channel under his name. He basically only builds FE's and Clevelands. He spec'd my cam and so many others. Right now he is putting together a 464 Cleveland with those CHI 3v heads ;)
I would like to have seen you test a dual plane intake , as you've proven (shown) that the dual plane makes more power at lower levels of rpm , even with a Cleveland . Just to see the difference . 🤔
Windsor for economic reason and factory roller lifters. Also can find parts easier. If I am not mistaken, you got a 1000 hp out of one with a stock bottom end.
I willing to bet, you build the 351 Cleveland and the 351 Windsor equally bored and equally stroke that 351 Cleveland would make a ass out of that 351 Windsor far as I'm concerned that 351 Cleveland is the baddest small block and I'm a Mopar man my uncle in the Carolinas made a believer out of me.
While the cleveland short block is a stout block design, the windsor short block isnt a slouch either. The windsor design weighs 150lbs less and is only 75lbs more than the "ls1". Windsors are more common and easier to source parts for. Im a big clevor design enthusiast, especially since mustangandfords . c o m squeezed 1159hp from a 200k hydraulic junkyard roller 93 year 351w/5.8l with cxracing turbochargers and some speed density tuning.
Kinda tuff to compare with different displacements. Cleveland motors have oiling issues that are correctable and a Windsor has a larger crank journal size which has a wee bit more parasitic loss from friction. I’m a Cleveland fan and run one but there is so much more aftermarket support for Windsor blocks. Conclusion: go clevor
@Cam montreuil engines Considering it would allow you to utilize a factory hydraulic roller cam set up I think that would answer your question. Better yet, build a 347 and tell everyone it’s a 289.
@Cam montreuil engines You schooled me there. I was not aware of the difference in cylinder bore length between a 289 and 302 block. I’ve never compared them and have never built a 289. I have built mild 302s with gt40 and gt40p heads. Cheap power.
The Windsor 427 had to carry many more rpm (7100 verses 6000) to make 112 hp extra. The Cleveland 385 cube made 1.27 lb-ft per cube. The junkyard block verses a 125 thou siamesed bore race block. You have diminishing returns right there. Race blocks aren't stamped for engine number and have there own problems registration time in some states. I'd take the thinwall 335, or find an old 351M or 400 block...and iron 4V heads with proper pocket blending and epoxies in Glidden aluminum exhaust plates make a 750 hp steel cranked 434 stoker and pocket the change over the CHI 3Vs and Dart SHO Windsor 427. Great comparisons Richard H!
I was looking at peak torque numbers to get a feeling of the efficiency of the parts combo. The 383 should have been over 550 ft lb and the 427 over 600 ft lb, if the cam, compression, exhaust, intake and heads where sized correctly. They were both missing about 50 ft lb or more so something was not right.
@@dennisrobinson8008 Richard,I think, nailed it...383C 3V deserved a roller cam. In my opinion, a dedicated one, with a more suitable intake. The 427W 3V, it was roller cam, but there was a stability problem up high, with an expected peak HP of 694, but it only gave 636 HP. Each could have made better low end torque, if the extra test time could be made finding a suitable cam grind for each. ( not a critique to Richards efforts, I'm really careful to say) The traditional index figures for torque on a healthy LS are similar to what the two engines gave, 1.27 and 1.30 lb-ft per cube, peak power , again, each engine is a little bit lower than the best carb LS's for HP per liter, especially the 427W 3V. When you change deck height 300 thou and have a corresponding runner length change, you most likely have to find cam profiles and carb spacer and intake configurations that bench mark with the best Chevy LS ones. Unlike Chevy stuff, Ford changes deck heights, main bearing sizes, rod lengths, even on the CHI, you got over sized the valves, and headflow goes nuts on intakes, and frequently, we have to grope around on the dyno to find cams which suit the changes. Chevy Small blocks are all similar, and a lot of companies spend time finding what works. Ford is often its own worst enemy because of the dual purpose nature of everything. 8.2, 9.2, 9.5 deck engines are three distinct families, needing distinct solutions.
@@deanstevenson6527 Here goes a CHI 3V headed combo 629 ft-lb on 12:1 and 788HP at "only" 7200 RPM 400ci. It's 101 octane race gas. I look at the torque numbers to see if the combination is setup correctly. 400 CI should certainly crack 600 ft-lb. ruclips.net/video/E-f4oqwhMSE/видео.html.
@@deanstevenson6527 I will admit, that i never respected the cleveland for what it was until recently. I grew up a windsor guy. But i see whenever the cleveland head architecture is brought to the table it's when the big power is coming out.
I'd love to see a max stroke 400M/4V factory head build, more stability in the bigger factory block as opposed to stretching the limits on the factory 351 block.
They really should have picked something other than 2V and 4V for names because everyone wants to say valve instead of venturi which is what the V stands for on these heads.
Richard you should go take a set of 2v heads have them shaved 10,000 put a boss cam in the block put an 850 Holly on a single plane manifold you'll be surprised the new King has arrived.. and everyone insults those heads they just wanted more cam
I'm pulling my tired 2v aussie head motor to build what should i do stroke it or ? It has a mild cam ,750 ultra dp, ed performer intake and shorty headers. 389 gear tremec 5sp
Richard, why is it that your Clevor motor has no water outlets and your Cleveland motor pic has clevor and Cleveland water outlets? Hopefully the clevor pic is just a mock up or it's going to overheat.
Cleveland will always rev higher than a Windsor due to main bearing size. Any Cleveland will rev past 7000 rpm. No Windsor can spin as fast and escape failure.
I recall Kaase made 650 bhp with a 400ci and 240* cam. He warmed the heads over a lot...2.22" valves and 400cfm. 348cfm will support well over 700 bhp. imo the cam you selected had too much duration. even the LS7 will make 600+ bhp with stock heads and a 23X cam.
I am still waiting for a solid roller test with factory L5P duramax lifters in a Factory gen3/4 lifter tray. The thing that might stop all your fun is that they only have 0.400 tappet lift from the factory. Edit... Three down votes? These people aren't haters, if someone goes to your videos just to flick that button that makes them your biggest fans.
I would just want to see the difference between the stock Cleveland v4 heads and the aftermarket performance Windsor heads on a big inch application...... like..... how good actually are the factory cleveland heads and are they worth your time when you build your own stroker? if they do make more peak power than wedge heads, how much are you sacrificing in the bottom end to make those gains up top?
@@cammontreuil7509 I meant factory Cleveland heads.... all types v4 etc.... vs the best aftermarket Windsor heads available. On a big inch motor we would see the difference where a smaller engine isn't going to be pushing the cfm limit of the ports
@@DavieJones_Lockr traditionally, wedge heads have always made more low end torque. Example, as in coming out of a corner at short tracks. Something that really can't be measured on a dyno. But we can get a baseline idea. If I'm building a race car. Short track. Wedge heads. Long poly heads.
Has anyone ever built a 427 based on the 9.2 deck Cleveland. All the 427's I have seen are based on the 9.5 deck Windsor. Is 383 the largest size possible based on the 9.2 deck Cleveland?
I would rather have the 351w. I used to like the Cleveland, but the shorter deck height, the thinner cylinder walls and unavailability made me switch to the Windsor
There are so many more intakes available for the 9.5 deck height. There is a bunch of 9.2 intakes for Yates style heads but not too many guys can make use of them on the street and they aren't meant to fit under any production hood. If you have a couple extra dollars available a 393 kit is really cheap for the Windsor. That blocks are available with factory hydraulic roller and aftermarket heads are getting poured in China daily makes it a really cheap build. Your odds of finding a serviceable 351C block in a Junkyard is pretty small.
@@timothybayliss6680 I did a 3.75 4.060 Dart block Windsor. AFR 185 heads flow better than any Cleveland head I know and retain a lot of velocity. CHI heads are badass but who can build a huge displacement monster with a 9.2” inch deck heigh economically? The smaller mains are about the only benefit I can see, but even that is irrelevant because Dart uses the C mains. Would have been cool to see what Ford would have done with the C if it had become popular. Can you imagine the monster strokers you could do with a 400m deck height and the big 4v heads? That engine would have been a legend.
Do you have any thoughts on the Auusie 2V heads? Smaller ports and quench chamber. I have a set and want to put them on a 408C stroker short block. Might it be worth it?.. Thanks
Richard! Please do a video on dyno runs/sweeps from idle to 3500!!!! Or idle to whatever, then do a pull from 4000 to the moon. Most people daily their rides right?
That’s not really how a dyno works. You would be measuring WOT starting at idle, which you don’t do on the street. You don’t leave the light at pedal to the metal and then once you hit 3500 let off, you throttle in and then part throttle to whatever rpm and shift. Dyno doesn’t really do part throttle.
I really don't think so... Pavtek, who know their stuff, can get around 520 hp by CNC porting a set of iron 2Vs and you'd consider that pretty much the limit. The smallest-port CHIs out of the box, without any work at all, are already up around 550.
@@gergatron7000Some of the racing teams are make over 600+ hp with the Aussie 2v clevo heads add 4v valves and some bowl work and to the closed camberand theyare hard to beat, yeah today tech may be alot better but wont be that much ahead
Just rewatched this vid and you never once mention the comp ratios, guess I’ll have to go search the other videos! However do appreciate getting the octane number.
What do you think about the Kasse P38 heads? They have a modified valve angle that moves the valve away from the cylinder wall as it opens. This unshrouds the valve allowing for better flow. Anyway, could they be even better than these 3v heads from Australia? Kasse made an unbelievable 749 horsepower with them on a 427 windsor with a hydraulic roller cam. I read about em in muscle mustangs and fast fords magazine a few years ago.
Clevor engine is best... Less weight, the Windsor engine oils from bottom to top! Cleveland engine oils from top to bottom. You want the oil from main bearing to the top end the Cleveland engine does not. That is why NASCAR don't use Cleveland engine's!!!
Good afternoon Richard, Ive been watching your videos and am currently putting together a stock block 347 together with afr 185 heads and comp xe274hr cam. Will i be fine for piston to valve clearance?
@@richardholdener1727 hey man I luv ur Chanel But the question is will u do a Comparison of the Chevy 8.1 motor VS the dodge 8.1 motor nd then ad boost to them to see witch one makes more
Clevor for me. I've fallen victim to a stock Cleveland's poor oiling design. Finding your big end smooshed into what looks like a single half isn't good. In saying that I'm thinking of a money no object build using an aluminium block with a 2.75 main size.
@@richardholdener1727 bummer .. I'd love to know what one does under boost and take some guess work out of it. Still though thanks for all the testing you do and all the content you post . We all really appreciate you !
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I click like for Clevelands
Yes! to more Cleveland builds. Thanks Richard.
Ya i don't know why people say they want to put a comparison up on two different engine and one is 50 more CC's then the other. Then they want to say this engine beat this engine. I know he didn't do that here, but so many times I have seen where they say we are gonna see which is better a 351 Cleveland or a 351 Clevor. The they leave the Cleveland completely stock while throwing a ton of after market parts at the Clevor. For once I would like to see both the Cleveland and the Clevor get the same amount of attention. Same Cams Duration, same heads and Valve sizes, same style intakes same attention to the oiling systems, same Carbs and most of all Same Cubic inches or as close as they can be and same compression. I want to see a good and fair comparison between the two Engines. I know you can't build a Clevor with factory parts because of the heads but lets make it Fair as it can be. Then lets see what HP and Torque these engines make and who makes more.
When I was at SAMTECH in Houston. We built 2 clevor engines. We placed 2nd and 4th in the Engine Masters challenge in 2007 and 8. We also built a 400" sbc and placed 3rd with it. Some fun stuff. I have all the engine build sheets and worked on those chi heads alot. Miss it 4 real.
I'd like the info you you would be willing to share it. I'm currently building a open chamber 4v clevland for a 59 f100.
Well done!
I'll see what I can dig up. We also built a 433 lsx that made 1030hp NA @9700 while I was there. There are some videos out there of it in action. Thanks
Alor of us would love ti see links on this build.
I remember the SAM Mustang with the 400ci, big bore, relatively small stroke motor with Edelbrock Victor Heads. It was pretty impressive, running 8's naturally aspirated
Factory 4V Cleveland heads prepped right make an insane amount of power on a stroker. I built a 434 iron 4V Cleveland with some bowl work and cleaned up runners for a friend using after market Arrow block , street roller cam 260/266 on 110 LC , 665 lift.. 11.1 CR, TFC intake manifold 1000 cfm 4150 pro system carb . Running pump fuel it produced 672 HP with 582 Ft/lbs., beautiful street manners and gobs of torque throughout the rpm range
Down the track we’ll replace camshaft with a 272 at .050 , raise comp by half a point and port the intake. It’ll make 715-720+.
CHI are great heads but if you have iron 4V’s and building a stroker they will work very well indeed.
What crank rod and piston made a 434 ?
@@cammontreuil7509 Arrow Blocks have 4.155 bore and use a Scat 4" stroke crank..This guy is for real, and the HP numbers stack up..no B/S..
I see why 4v dominated at its time.
I want to join the Cleveland club
great work Richard love your video's I watch them all and I love how you love Clevelands ! I am running 410ci with stock 4V closed chambers and solid flat tappet 244/252 in my 72 Gran Torino here in Australia and it pulls to the moon!!!
Certainly over 500hp
The Windsor block has priority main oiling, and usually thicker cylinder walls. Both make it a better foundation!
Lifter bore bushings fix the cleveland oil system once and for all. It also has smaller mains which are less friction and capable of higher rpms. Or you just go buy a new T Meyer Cleveland block and you are done.
Better aftermarket support than the Cleveland as well .. cranks, pistons, etc.
@@granbordeaux6955 Pistons are driven by heads and cranks are not hard to do.
@@kblackav8or ???? Are you arguing the 351/400C has better aftermarket support than the 351W? Cleveland fan boy alert. 100,000's more 351W's were made from 1969 to 1996 than Cleveland family.. Early 80's Ford Trucks still had a 351M .. but just a couple of years. Certainly no Cleveland between 1987 and 1996. Certainly no Clevelands in the #1 selling pickup in the USA for that time period. The aftermarket is driven by what will sell ... It's not a robot with a Head/Piston equation. No Cheap Roller Cams.. either.. for the Cleveland.. you'll need all aftermarket to get it. There are 351W's in my local Pick A Part.. today.. no question. Cleveland?? Only if some ancient iron came in. 1985 was 35 years ago.. How many 35 yr old cars hitting the scrap yards today?
@@granbordeaux6955 NO not saying that. I will say this, it is the more race oriented engine. In fact all the SVO blocks Ford was racing in the 80's and 90's were a hybrid. Cleveland dimensions with a improved oiling system and a W front timing cover. I know, I run one. The cleveland head design is superior to anything wheezer and you cannot argue otherwise. Canted valves win. You can't spin your W block as hard as you can a C block. Those huge mains slow you down. Had they kept the smaller 302 mains yes but they didn't. The 351W was with exception to 3 years of production a non performance engine. 69/70 4v 351W and the 94 or 95 Cobra Mustang that had it. That's it. Of course there are more parts but keep your wheezer heads and your wet manifold. I am not after a pickup engine. My SVO G351 block will outperform your factory W block or a factory C block. Leave them both 351, you build with inline valve W parts and I will build with canted valve C parts. I win every time. That Roush guy and that Glidden guy beat a lot of Mopars and Chevies and neither ever ran a wheezer.
CHI also makes a 265 Aussie Chrysler 6cyl semi Hemi head.
Unfortunately most yanks don't know what we're on about 🙄
@@gergatron7000 Most...but not All. There's an increasingly woken generation of hard core USA and Canucks that do know. Like the first 57 cc closed chamber 9.206 inch deck US built 302 Cleveland Engine with its 3 inch crank for the 1971 230 and 240 hp 2bbl V8s, the first building of these Hemi 6 engines was also the USA. These days, the All Par website shows the A series bore spacings and D series Dodge truck origins and the Highland Park principal engineering that shows that it was not a solely Mike Stacey development in South Australia. It's a US engine made on Small Block A and LA 4.46 bore spacings, with non cross flow Polyspheric heads and once the design concept and tooling were made by Halenback and his team, the whole shooting match was then transferred to Tonsley Park, Chrysler Australia Prty Ltd. The US guys saw through the misinformation that it was a 4.38 bore spacing 232/258/4.0 AMC or Jeep six with a poly head. Nothing is shared in design or engineering or tooling. The Slant six, it's more a heavy rework of the old 25 inch long flat head Dodge 228/250.6/ 265 truck in line six. The Hemi 6, it was very much a Polyspheric A with no cross flow.
@@deanstevenson6527 yes I have read that it was an abandoned US truck design, understandably built on V8 architecture (318 pistons I believe), makes plenty of sense and I don't know why other manufacturers didn't employ a more modular design like this throughout their engine ranges.
I understand that they were abandoned in the US because fuel economy wasn't an issue at the time and the performance goals were easily met with the 318 and 360.
What the Aussies in the "Hemi" 6 development can take credit for is just the sheer performance squeezed from it that could put many V8s to shame, and the ingenuity of the people involved to be able to achieve this on a tiny fraction of the budget it would have taken to develop it to this extent in the US is what is so impressive.
This 385 Cleveland seems like there’s a lot of power left somewhere. If you compare the specs to a 6.2, the rec port heads don’t flow quite as much and a 469 cam is 9 or 10° shorter, but it makes much more hp and torque. So, flat tappet lobe vs roller, valve springs, and the LS3 intake vs a single plane... I guess numbers don’t lie, and everything counts when you look at the final results! Very interesting data, Richard. Thanks!
I love these comparison tests. I watch them multiple times. The Cleveland is an interesting engine, I’ve never owned one but I love them on principle- big head flow= big power! I would like to see some big block mopar stuff, 5.2/5.9 magnum would be interesting as well.
5.9 Dodge Magnum--or 408 stroker--with fuel injection. There are millions of these engines running around.
@@mchristrokay but those are not big blocks and there's two series of Mopar big blocks the B engines and the RB engines both of which are no longer manufactured except for aftermarket blocks
That Clevor 427 is what I'd like to build for my 1964 Fairlane since 427 FE's are a rare and expensive find.
That torque line for the 351ci would make a great little motor for 2400lb saloon track warrior
3 months ago I bought the 408 clevor setup that took me for my first mid 6 second 1/8 pass in a fox coupe when I was 11 in 2000 or 2001. I bought it to freshen up and stick a s488 that I already have in my Fairmont wagon I turbo ls swapped and went 5.90s before the third 5.3 scattered and focused on the race car. But what started out as a freshen up turned into basically only the old speedmaster heads&intake and crank are the only original parts from the OG build it's got really good machine work some eagle rods d.s.s pistons, I had the heads completely rebuilt and ports touched up 11 to 1 comp ratio the plan was to do a blow thru setup on e85 and just have a another stupid fast street car l love my race car but 850-900hp street cars are amazing. Anyway the damn build about broke me the motor and power glide with a jw bell are already in the car but I'm about to swap a pretty rowdy nitrous friendly cam and throw a nice plate on it and call it done until I want more or my wallet recuperates
Do a 2v Cleveland build, stock heads with mild clean up, cam, pistons, intake and some headers for the budget street guys. Thanks in advance.
Yes please! 👍🏼
Good idea. Put to rest that 2 v open chamber heads are junk. Cause they aren't.
@@cammontreuil7509 2v would be a great option for a street motor. Especially in a truck motor build.
@@I_like_turtles_67 when I had my shop going in the 80's I told my customers to deep six their 360/390's for a cleveland 2 barrel in their trucks. All were happy about my recommendation.
Yikes ! I junked 100 or more FE's. Now I feel guilty.
I think he's already done a 400 basically how your talking.
Windsor Block/Clevor for me- Roller Cam Block... Better support. Unless a neighbor got tired of his Pantera motor and dropped it off in my driveway. Then I'd be stylin my Pantera Valve covers.
My 1973 LTD came with a 400M. Not wanting to be left behind, I got a pair of 1970 4V head set, made my own spacer plates, and had the block bored, balanced and sleeved to 4.03 bore and a 4.00 stroke. With TRW forged flat top heads, and 63 cc heads, I believe it came to a 11.00 CR. I put in a CC 290 High lift short duration cam, and a 750 Holley on a Dominator intake. With 4:11 9 inch rear, my 73 LTD could easily run low 13'ies! Today, the car is gone, but the engine and C6 remain. I am looking for another frame to put it in. The only thing I am wrestling with is, DO I go with new aluminum heads, rollers, HEI, etc....., or do I just keep it "Old School" along with my Mallory Dual point? What says the Class?
THANKS RICHARD VERY HELPFULL WAS THINKING OF BUYING A 427 SHORT BLOCK FROM STV THIS GIVES ME A GOOD IDEA AND H P TARGET RANGES WITH HEADS AND CAMS GOOD VIDEO MORE WINDSOR CLEVELAND STUFF
My Grandpa has a Cleavor put together for his 75 Mustang 2 with ported 4v heads that could swallow a bird.
Whats a Cleavor engine?
Cleveland and Windsor combined
@@richardholdener1727 Thanks Richard, had me stumped.lol
@@anthonysantiago1999 - Windsor block with a Cleveland head.
Clevor is the way to go. Lots of deck height, good oiling system, Windsor front drive: What's not to like?
ABSOLUTELY everything about that combo is likeable. I had a 351c 4v in my 1970 Mustang Mach 1. The problem was the oiling system. In 1974 no one had yet made a High Volume oil pumps. I had 2 of them come apart because of that. The motor I built for my son's in the 19 Starsky and Hutch clone we did use a high volume oil pump and never could destroy that motor. MY Plans will probably use the 3.6 Blue Thunder cylinder heads on a World Products Man O War block to build a 427 Clevor. Hopefully it'll make about 750 streetable Horsepower.
Cleveland's and techno I effing love it
I'll take the Cleveland for $500 Alex!
The head used was a ported 218 3v ? Did you check calculated cross section on the heads ?
Finished port volume ?
the dyno told us whether the head worked or not
@@richardholdener1727
I ran a set of out of the box 218 on 410 inch
They checked in at 221 cc and a calculated cross section of 2.66
They flowed 331 at .7 and went backwards
Ran 9.54 at 139 and change on alcohol fuel 3050 lbs with driver
Cam was similar to your except .775-.757 lift 108 sep
104/112 we ran it 108/108
More Cleveland builds please. Have you tried coming up with a good street combination with the 2V heads?
They don't flow that well- American 2V heads.. about the Level of a Chevy Double Hump.. 200cfm. You could get 200cfm out of a ported set of junkyard Explorer/GT40 heads with alot less headache. 2V Cleveland heads are also Open Chamber .. read Big Chamber Volume = Low Compression. So Piston replacement to get decent compression is a possibility w 2v Cleveland heads. 1.84 valve 351W factory heads flow about 185cfm.. If your goal was 1hp per cube on a 351w.. You'd only need a cam swap as the factory 351w heads would support it. The only place a 2V Cleveland head combo would make sense would be on a 351C if your goal was 1ph per Cube-ish. In that case you could simply do Cam/Piston and perhaps a head shave and put out a 350hp-395hp motor.
a late model 351W head sure doesn't flow 185
@@richardholdener1727 I had DOOE back in the day. Misread info off Stan Weiss then.. mentioned C90E.. then just said 351W.. Since it didn't specify C9OE or DOOE - I assumed late model 351W.
@@richardholdener1727 No 1hp /per cubic inch with a 1996 roller cam 351W w stock heads? .. I bet it would get there. Cam, Head Shave 10:1 , Carb n Manifold .. Dirt Track or XFI'ish spec cam. Mid 500's lift and 225@ .50 dur minimum. 108 - 110 LSA. Only need 175cfm/flow .. perhaps less with enough draw/demand/signal.
@@granbordeaux6955 A friend of mine has a pair of 2V heads laying around from a 400 engine. Would they fit on my 5.0L H.O.?
I would love to see a test with the 351c edelbrock performer rpm intake,heads, & cam
I'd like to see these heads on the Ford 400 the tall deck cleavland. Can't find much stuff on them.
Have you posted videos on just oiling upgrades and results? I've always found that interesting. Especially with the windsor or 385 series.
I would like to see the Dyno results of the 383 Cleveland with the stock 4v head. a 400m with high compression 484 comp cam and 4v head would be awesome to. thanks
Clevor FTW ain’t even got to watch the vid. I’m no Ford fan but I will say the boss 351 was imo the baddest factory small block in stock form.
Thanks Richard love all this testing you do
a clevor with 13:1 domes, a big solid roller, destroked to 339, with a sheet metal intake and dual dominators on M1 methanol, lets try that one, should be a nice little 10,000 rpm screamer.
Can we get a test on regular 2V heads? They're still pretty potent.
Thanks for helping to keep the 351 C relevant. I loved my Clevelands. Sucks that R&D for this motor is long gone in this country
The new Godzilla has similar features as the cleveland heads
Actually it did receive a ton of development, but just not in street cars. The NASCAR C3 and D3 engines were the ultimate form of the Cleveland. But i agree, it's a crime that Ford Racing only sells Windsor crate engines.
First off thank you for the awesome videos. You have answered alot of questions about real hp numbers I always wanted to know. To be hounest your doing what I always wanted to to as a kid growing up. Still is a dream to play in dyno room with a bunch of classics.
But if you can you should Test the factory stroker. Witch is the 400. In stock 2v form then with
4v open chamber heads, 4v close chamber, then go all out with the 3v heads. Then if you can get ahold of a set of Aussie closed chamber 2v 302c heads. If there not ported test them on a 306 w or a 347w. If there ported test them on a stock 351C then the 383c.
I had a chance to get a set of the 302c closed chamber 2v heads in 2018. at the time I couldnt afford the $300. They were complete just needed rockers. They had been oiled and wrapped sitting on a shelf since the mid 80s.
Love a Cleveland any day of the week, but the tough look of a Clevor engine is something else again. Ford should have produced a 351 Boss with the Windsor block, would have saved them the tooling to produce a new block, just cast the heads.
I would think if the only difference was Windsor or Cleveland block there might be a small difference in intake runner length between deck heights 9.2C 9.5W, from there it would come down to parasitic loss of the rotating assembly. With smaller crank journals I would think the Cleveland block would have a advantage.
Only will know if both use the same bore and stroke.
They both have issues. Cleveland has cylinder wall stability and Windsor has main web weakness. Smaller mains on the Cleveland is definitely better. but the extra weight of the "cast in" timing cover area is not. Windsor is stroker friendly. I could go on. Pick your poison.
Great video Richard. I would love to learn about the Milodon oil pan mods! Thank you!!
It worked long ago but it still works today. 😎
I'm curious why some people build a "Clevor" (Cleveland 4V heads on a Windsor block) instead of just using a 351C engine. What are the advantages of going the "Clevor" route and how much cost does it add in modifications and special components (intake) to make it work?
more availability of the Windsor block
How about a 400" Stroker Cleveland? :)
It's almost as if Ford should have made one from the factory.... Oh wait
The 351M and 400 are the natural bases for almost factory 434 strokers. 40 thou over and a steel Moldex crank, 752 hp at 7500 rpm with 4V heads and dual Quads. There is a large weight penalty for a 10.3 inch deck engine over the 9.21 deck Cleveland 351 and 9.5 inch deck Windsor, but even with its tiny 4 inch bores, it's lighter and almost as good as the Dart 4.125 race block. And factory from a junked 70-82 Full-size Ford or 1978-1982 F truck or Bronco.
Awesome work Richard thanks
love the 351w and Cleveland I have a 398w
Richard can you do a Valve Spring comparison it seems we run out of spring pressure alot , I like to see just a stiffer spring comparison on the same engine. Arent you curious what a simple spring change is worth
THAT VIDEO IS ALREADY UP-COMPARED IT MANY TIMES
@@richardholdener1727 Thank you I will find it ,missed that one .Your work is a real eye opener for me
Love the Cleveland head tests! Wonder how the Cleveland stuff compares to a similar sized Windsor-style head?
No comparison. The Cleveland head is superior in flow/power production
IMO, unless you are building an all out race engine a good after market Windsor based head is more than adequate. The additional cost of a Cleveland just isn’t justifiable.
My father and i built a 4v Cleveland while his in law built a Windsor with a.m. aluminum heads. The build costs were within a few hundred bucks and my dads Cleveland was every bit as responsive/streetable(both in f series pick ups) AND smoked Jims from digs/rolls/everywhere else. That's facts.
To get to ported Cleveland level you have to go all the way to ported TFS R heads. They dominate similar size inline valve heads.
Richard could you please do some Ford FE engines 352-428.
Love the Cleveland!
427 with Mahle 1MM !MM 2 MM oil ring piston Stiffer valve train and step header with merge collector. 👍
Great Video. Will work this Combo on a Ford 400 M?
Richard Holdener
That CHI head flow is fine but you can't use off the shelf "chevy grind" cams for a Cleveland. They require completely different valve events and lobe sep. I know the 383 was done a while ago so we cant change that but that 383 should have destroyed my 359C with the extra cubes. My 359C has a Bullet solid flat cam 239/243@.050 .611/.605 lift but on a 107 lobe. Now my Trick Flow 225cc heads do flow. The flow card TEA sent me they flow
.500 lift Intake 333cfm Exhaust 241cfm and at .600 lift flow 355cfm Exhaust 259.6cfm. Mine dynoed 520p@6300 453tq@5600 . Mine with 383 kit would easily be close to or at 600hp but with my cam not your Comp Cam Happy you showed some more Cleveland stuff though
so WRONG CAM?
@@richardholdener1727 I would not call it a wrong cam because they do open and close the valves but off the shelf cams for a Cleveland are basically copies of common cam grinds. Clevelands require different cam timing and lobe sep than generic shelf cams. Just so you know, I'm not undermining you at all, you are awesome but it is what it is.
Give Brent Lykins a call when you have some time - if you ever have time with all your cool stuff you do. Brent has recently started his own RUclips channel under his name. He basically only builds FE's and Clevelands. He spec'd my cam and so many others. Right now he is putting together a 464 Cleveland with those CHI 3v heads ;)
Engine dyno or dynojet?
Love to see that 427 with some boost...
I would like to have seen you test a dual plane intake , as you've proven (shown) that the dual plane makes more power at lower levels of rpm , even with a Cleveland . Just to see the difference . 🤔
Windsor for economic reason and factory roller lifters. Also can find parts easier. If I am not mistaken, you got a 1000 hp out of one with a stock bottom end.
Block will split for sure
I willing to bet, you build the 351 Cleveland and the 351 Windsor equally bored and equally stroke that 351 Cleveland would make a ass out of that 351 Windsor far as I'm concerned that 351 Cleveland is the baddest small block and I'm a Mopar man my uncle in the Carolinas made a believer out of me.
While the cleveland short block is a stout block design, the windsor short block isnt a slouch either. The windsor design weighs 150lbs less and is only 75lbs more than the "ls1". Windsors are more common and easier to source parts for. Im a big clevor design enthusiast, especially since mustangandfords . c o m squeezed 1159hp from a 200k hydraulic junkyard roller 93 year 351w/5.8l with cxracing turbochargers and some speed density tuning.
I'm familiar with that-take a look at the Big bang 351W video that is up
Kinda tuff to compare with different displacements. Cleveland motors have oiling issues that are correctable and a Windsor has a larger crank journal size which has a wee bit more parasitic loss from friction. I’m a Cleveland fan and run one but there is so much more aftermarket support for Windsor blocks. Conclusion: go clevor
@Cam montreuil engines You probably can't read
@Cam montreuil engines Having a Masters degree in engineering affords me the ability to use words with more than 3 letters unlike yourself.
@Cam montreuil engines Considering it would allow you to utilize a factory hydraulic roller cam set up I think that would answer your question. Better yet, build a 347 and tell everyone it’s a 289.
@Cam montreuil engines You schooled me there. I was not aware of the difference in cylinder bore length between a 289 and 302 block. I’ve never compared them and have never built a 289. I have built mild 302s with gt40 and gt40p heads. Cheap power.
Start using wider lobe separation to make peak hp higher in rpm range.
You really had my hopes up richard. I thought it was gonna be a 351 windsor vs 351 clevor1😞
The Windsor 427 had to carry many more rpm (7100 verses 6000) to make 112 hp extra. The Cleveland 385 cube made 1.27 lb-ft per cube. The junkyard block verses a 125 thou siamesed bore race block. You have diminishing returns right there. Race blocks aren't stamped for engine number and have there own problems registration time in some states. I'd take the thinwall 335, or find an old 351M or 400 block...and iron 4V heads with proper pocket blending and epoxies in Glidden aluminum exhaust plates make a 750 hp steel cranked 434 stoker and pocket the change over the CHI 3Vs and Dart SHO Windsor 427. Great comparisons Richard H!
I was looking at peak torque numbers to get a feeling of the efficiency of the parts combo. The 383 should have been over 550 ft lb and the 427 over 600 ft lb, if the cam, compression, exhaust, intake and heads where sized correctly. They were both missing about 50 ft lb or more so something was not right.
@@dennisrobinson8008 Richard,I think, nailed it...383C 3V deserved a roller cam. In my opinion, a dedicated one, with a more suitable intake. The 427W 3V, it was roller cam, but there was a stability problem up high, with an expected peak HP of 694, but it only gave 636 HP. Each could have made better low end torque, if the extra test time could be made finding a suitable cam grind for each. ( not a critique to Richards efforts, I'm really careful to say) The traditional index figures for torque on a healthy LS are similar to what the two engines gave, 1.27 and 1.30 lb-ft per cube, peak power , again, each engine is a little bit lower than the best carb LS's for HP per liter, especially the 427W 3V. When you change deck height 300 thou and have a corresponding runner length change, you most likely have to find cam profiles and carb spacer and intake configurations that bench mark with the best Chevy LS ones. Unlike Chevy stuff, Ford changes deck heights, main bearing sizes, rod lengths, even on the CHI, you got over sized the valves, and headflow goes nuts on intakes, and frequently, we have to grope around on the dyno to find cams which suit the changes. Chevy Small blocks are all similar, and a lot of companies spend time finding what works. Ford is often its own worst enemy because of the dual purpose nature of everything. 8.2, 9.2, 9.5 deck engines are three distinct families, needing distinct solutions.
@@deanstevenson6527 Here goes a CHI 3V headed combo 629 ft-lb on 12:1 and 788HP at "only" 7200 RPM 400ci. It's 101 octane race gas. I look at the torque numbers to see if the combination is setup correctly. 400 CI should certainly crack 600 ft-lb. ruclips.net/video/E-f4oqwhMSE/видео.html.
@@deanstevenson6527 I will admit, that i never respected the cleveland for what it was until recently. I grew up a windsor guy. But i see whenever the cleveland head architecture is brought to the table it's when the big power is coming out.
I'd love to see a max stroke 400M/4V factory head build, more stability in the bigger factory block as opposed to stretching the limits on the factory 351 block.
thanks man, i picked up a set of 2v CHI head for cheap. You said the 3v were much better. I'll let you know.
2V CHI are excellent on a healthy street engine
The 2V has similar performance but can be used with stock 2V port location. 3Vs need the special 3V intake with the relocated ports
So what do you think the problem is with the 427 windsor?
Chevrolet small block with 9 degree heads. Lol.. too expensive to do a test but they work real good if your budget allows
They really should have picked something other than 2V and 4V for names because everyone wants to say valve instead of venturi which is what the V stands for on these heads.
To be fair i dont think ford anticipated using more than 2 valves per cylinder back when the Cleveland was designed 😂.
If you stroke A460 do you have to put a bigger oil pan
Richard you should go take a set of 2v heads have them shaved 10,000 put a boss cam in the block put an 850 Holly on a single plane manifold you'll be surprised the new King has arrived.. and everyone insults those heads they just wanted more cam
2v heads don't flow very well
I'm pulling my tired 2v aussie head motor to build what should i do stroke it or ? It has a mild cam ,750 ultra dp, ed performer intake and shorty headers. 389 gear tremec 5sp
Richard, why is it that your Clevor motor has no water outlets and your Cleveland motor pic has clevor and Cleveland water outlets? Hopefully the clevor pic is just a mock up or it's going to overheat.
1 WAS A MOCK UP (BECAUSE IT LOOKED PRETTY)
What was the compression on them?
Cleveland will always rev higher than a Windsor due to main bearing size. Any Cleveland will rev past 7000 rpm. No Windsor can spin as fast and escape failure.
My cleveland with comp cam and comp springs/locks/retainers runs to 8k no problem could probably do more
Richard, any speculation of power numbers using a factory 351C - M code 4V head on that 427 Windsor Block ? ( Cam and piston as chosen here)
they only flow 275 cfm, so not as much potential
@@richardholdener1727 I would think so as well - but decent power production as a low buck alternative. 530 ish vs 600 ish?
I recall Kaase made 650 bhp with a 400ci and 240* cam. He warmed the heads over a lot...2.22" valves and 400cfm. 348cfm will support well over 700 bhp. imo the cam you selected had too much duration. even the LS7 will make 600+ bhp with stock heads and a 23X cam.
Good catch on LS7
Do you know what Kaase did with the 400cfm heads? Or where they the CHI Kaase 400cfm heads?
Clevors have canted valve heads correct?
yes-they have Cleveland heads
I am still waiting for a solid roller test with factory L5P duramax lifters in a Factory gen3/4 lifter tray. The thing that might stop all your fun is that they only have 0.400 tappet lift from the factory.
Edit... Three down votes? These people aren't haters, if someone goes to your videos just to flick that button that makes them your biggest fans.
I would just want to see the difference between the stock Cleveland v4 heads and the aftermarket performance Windsor heads on a big inch application...... like..... how good actually are the factory cleveland heads and are they worth your time when you build your own stroker? if they do make more peak power than wedge heads, how much are you sacrificing in the bottom end to make those gains up top?
We're talking wedge against a poly, right ?
@@cammontreuil7509 I meant factory Cleveland heads.... all types v4 etc.... vs the best aftermarket Windsor heads available. On a big inch motor we would see the difference where a smaller engine isn't going to be pushing the cfm limit of the ports
@@DavieJones_Lockr traditionally, wedge heads have always made more low end torque.
Example, as in coming out of a corner at short tracks.
Something that really can't be measured on a dyno.
But we can get a baseline idea.
If I'm building a race car. Short track. Wedge heads. Long poly heads.
@@cammontreuil7509 now tell me something I don't know...... with a dyno sheet
@@DavieJones_Lockr how a car pulls out of a corner on a race track. That's what you don't know. But I do.
Has anyone ever built a 427 based on the 9.2 deck Cleveland. All the 427's I have seen are based on the 9.5 deck Windsor. Is 383 the largest size possible based on the 9.2 deck Cleveland?
I would rather have the 351w. I used to like the Cleveland, but the shorter deck height, the thinner cylinder walls and unavailability made me switch to the Windsor
There are so many more intakes available for the 9.5 deck height. There is a bunch of 9.2 intakes for Yates style heads but not too many guys can make use of them on the street and they aren't meant to fit under any production hood. If you have a couple extra dollars available a 393 kit is really cheap for the Windsor. That blocks are available with factory hydraulic roller and aftermarket heads are getting poured in China daily makes it a really cheap build. Your odds of finding a serviceable 351C block in a Junkyard is pretty small.
@@timothybayliss6680 I did a 3.75 4.060 Dart block Windsor. AFR 185 heads flow better than any Cleveland head I know and retain a lot of velocity. CHI heads are badass but who can build a huge displacement monster with a 9.2” inch deck heigh economically? The smaller mains are about the only benefit I can see, but even that is irrelevant because Dart uses the C mains. Would have been cool to see what Ford would have done with the C if it had become popular. Can you imagine the monster strokers you could do with a 400m deck height and the big 4v heads? That engine would have been a legend.
Gives me ideas for a Cleveland build for a maverick
So Kaase must have been the only one to run the CHI head in the Engine Masters I guess????
Do you have any thoughts on the Auusie 2V heads? Smaller ports and quench chamber. I have a set and want to put them on a 408C stroker short block. Might it be worth it?.. Thanks
they have higher compression-but don't flow like a 4V
@@richardholdener1727 So that would be.. not worth it? In your opinion? Thank you Sir.
I’d rather have to much head and add cubic inches but that’s just me
Definetly the fix for big flo heads
Richard! Please do a video on dyno runs/sweeps from idle to 3500!!!! Or idle to whatever, then do a pull from 4000 to the moon. Most people daily their rides right?
That’s not really how a dyno works. You would be measuring WOT starting at idle, which you don’t do on the street. You don’t leave the light at pedal to the metal and then once you hit 3500 let off, you throttle in and then part throttle to whatever rpm and shift. Dyno doesn’t really do part throttle.
WOT at idle?
@@richardholdener1727 wot from idle*?
Richard you should try the Aussie 302 2V head with some port work will out do the 3V heads and intakes are easy to get
I really don't think so... Pavtek, who know their stuff, can get around 520 hp by CNC porting a set of iron 2Vs and you'd consider that pretty much the limit. The smallest-port CHIs out of the box, without any work at all, are already up around 550.
@@gergatron7000Some of the racing teams are make over 600+ hp with the Aussie 2v clevo heads add 4v valves and some bowl work and to the closed camberand theyare hard to beat, yeah today tech may be alot better but wont be that much ahead
Hey Richard, what compression ratios did these motors have and what fuel did you use?
all were run on 91 and the compression was given for each in the videos
Just rewatched this vid and you never once mention the comp ratios, guess I’ll have to go search the other videos!
However do appreciate getting the octane number.
Hey Richard. Do you and the Roadkill jobs share engines to work on?
I got a few left overs from DF a while back
Richard you said you did a cam test in the Cleveland? I'd love to see that I'm building one now and have yet to pick my cam!
take a look at the 351 C videos I have up-its all there
What do you think about the Kasse P38 heads? They have a modified valve angle that moves the valve away from the cylinder wall as it opens. This unshrouds the valve allowing for better flow. Anyway, could they be even better than these 3v heads from Australia?
Kasse made an unbelievable 749 horsepower with them on a 427 windsor with a hydraulic roller cam. I read about em in muscle mustangs and fast fords magazine a few years ago.
they work well-he knows how to build power
Clevor engine is best... Less weight, the Windsor engine oils from bottom to top! Cleveland engine oils from top to bottom. You want the oil from main bearing to the top end the Cleveland engine does not. That is why NASCAR don't use Cleveland engine's!!!
Enough vacuum for power brakes?
That 383 would of made better hp and torque with the roller cam as well
I was expecting at least 550 ft lb of peak torque.
Ok, I give.. Whats a Clevor engine?
CLEVland heads with WindSOR short block
I prefer larger displacement
Clevors make huge power.
Do you plan to do any 3rd gen hemi builds love to see some 5.7 or 6.4 build up or even a big 426/440 stroker
I have Hemi vids up
Good afternoon Richard, Ive been watching your videos and am currently putting together a stock block 347 together with afr 185 heads and comp xe274hr cam. Will i be fine for piston to valve clearance?
the 347 piston will likely have valve reliefs
@@richardholdener1727 hey man I luv ur Chanel But the question is will u do a Comparison of the Chevy 8.1 motor VS the dodge 8.1 motor nd then ad boost to them to see witch one makes more
Clevor for me. I've fallen victim to a stock Cleveland's poor oiling design. Finding your big end smooshed into what looks like a single half isn't good. In saying that I'm thinking of a money no object build using an aluminium block with a 2.75 main size.
Hi Richard if the Windsor block is 4.125 bore doesn't that bring it up to a 434?
4.125 x 4.0 = 427
@@richardholdener1727 I should have known better than to question you on this. You are indeed correct.
Is that camshaft a custom or off the shelf I don't see one that matches those specs
it was custom
@@richardholdener1727 thank you
Personally I blame squirrels
We got a 417 clevor
Awesome!
Richard , is there a possibility that you could put some boost to the clevor?
I don't have it any more
@@richardholdener1727 bummer .. I'd love to know what one does under boost and take some guess work out of it. Still though thanks for all the testing you do and all the content you post . We all really appreciate you !
🔔👍
Have you ever done an MSD 6AL comparison test?
I thinking of MSD for my mild 90 HO.
Thanks.👍👍
Sure won't hurt. Check Dist for runout from wear
Mathematics 😊😅