Bob Glidden had a 32-0 season with his 78 Fairmont with the Cleve. Never lost a single round and i believe is the only undefeated record for a season in NHRA.
Glidden's Pro Stock win record was only surpassed by big corp. interests, while Glidden developed his own race engines, making him the Gate Keeper of big Ford power. His BBF Thunderbird and 1985 Pro Stock Championship solidified Glidden's spot in the NHRA Hall of Fame.
@@BobbyOfEarth ☑️ Yeah, and I think Bob Glidden used Boss 429 engines in his 1980's big block Pro Stock T-bird for at least 1 or more seasons. That just adds a whole other level of coolness to his racing history!
I had a old school engine builder tell me the best thing about a Cleveland 4V is the Port is so big that they could fill the floor of the intake port with epoxy and then work on the Port roof ending up with a funnel shape intake port with a almost straight shot at the valve. That engine builder was Carl Holbrook.
Kevin, the biggest problem with the factory iron 4-V heads is the exhaust ports. To fit between the narrow confines between Mustang and Cougar shock towers, the exhaust ports were designed with a restrictive ridge on the floor and a sharp downward turn at the exit. The Pro Stock builders fixed it by removing a large section of the exhaust port and installing an aluminum exhaust port plate. The exhaust flow has a straight shot out instead of being slowed down by the sharp downward turn. They also did as you suggested by filling the intake port floors with epoxy or an aluminum insert and raising the port roof. I have a set of them. They are called high port iron Cleveland heads. You can google it or check out DragBoss Garage on RUclips.
My dad brought home a 1971 Boss Mustang on a hot summer's' evening when my 6 siblings and friends next door were playing football on the front lawn. We heard it ripping up the road and blasting past like a bullet. It was dusk so the running lights were on and it looked like a damn spaceship! It went out of sight over the next hill and as we all just stood there talking amongst ourselves as to what that was, we heard tires screaming and an engine roaring 1st, 2nd, 3rd CRAP! then up over the hill blistering towards us. Then the gearing down it went sideways into our side yard and stopped on the driveway. As the dust was clearing my dad steps out, I swear he looked like a NASA astronaut at that moment stepping out of that black beauty! OMG!! I was in love with that machine instantly! That car was crazy fast and that motor took some massive punishment from my dads lead foot. it was Truly a MUSTANG Stallion! I washed and waxed it every weekend. My dad gave it to me when I got my 1st job at Red & White Grocery Store when I was in the 10th grade. I was a car junky from then on and have had some nice rides since that day in my life. Unfortunately some (EVIL) dude, lol.. Came to our house and offered my dad some serious cash and my black beauty streaked away into my memories. I still have a lot of feelings about those days and that car, I wish I had her today... When I turned 18 I left Georgia for the San Fernando Valley, wow what an amazing time to be young and a car guy. I saw a 1969 Mach 1 at a street race that had been on the cover of Hot Rod magazine. It was Red, Lowered, big fat tires awesomely trimmed out interior that looked like a cockpit of a fighter jet packing a 351 C with a (PAXTON SUPERCHARGER)!!! 1st time I ever heard that beautiful sound! He raced a 1970 chevelle that had a 454 with a blower sticking out of the hood. The mustang blew out of the hole like a rocket and the chevelle front end went in the air... Mustang GONE!!! Great days!
Yeah. He talked about how he installed a new cam, and he showed a picture of that cam install at 6:10. But imagine how much more power it would make if he actually pushed the cam in more, and installed it all the way into the engine! 😁
no such thing as a small block or big block ford. Those are terms chevy used. FE Series. 385 Series. 335 series. The 351c is a Ford 335 series engine. It feels icky using chevy terms on a great Ford engine.
@@todsimpkins8908 … You’re absolutely correct about the small and big block terminology but this far along in the game there’s really no point in trying to change things. The general public can more easily relate to the engines using the GM nomenclature. Now if they would just stop referring to INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES, (ICE), as MOTORS, it would send a massive wave of understanding across the planet with WORLD PEACE ☮️ left in its wake. Well … maybe not that dramatic 😳but one is electric powered and the other uses gasoline for fuel and nothing in common. It just sounds odd when a professional, educated builder calls an ICE….MOTOR 🤷♂️
@@danielwilson6665when you’re talking about a particular engine yes use the correct terminology because that’s the name of the engine we’re talking about not going to call it what it’s not
I do, I've own a couple of them myself and I also have built a few for friends and or customers over the years. The 351C is my favorite small block Ford v8.
@@jesco6830 Stick with 2v heads for street/daily driver use, use clevite inserts for mains and rods, MSD for ignition, I like Badger or Mahle pistons, and you need to use a good high volumn oil pump, Chrome moly rings, brass head gaskets if you can get them. Felpro for all gaskets and seals. Find a good reputable machine shop to do your block and head work. You can't go wrong with a Cleveland !!!
My 79 F150 has a mildly built 9:1 351C-2V. Edelbrock Intake, Barry Grant Carb, Crane Cam, Headman Headers, 2 1/2 duals with X pipe and 40 series Flowmasters. The X-Pipe really mellows the 40 series Flowmasters. C-4 upgraded internals and shift kit, 3:55 gears with 30 inch rubber. 15 mpg around town, 18 mpg on highway running steady 70 mph. Smokes the tires when wanted and stone dead reliable. Estimated 325hp/380 torque Net readings with Water pump, power steering and Alternator according to my dyno software on my PC. Love my Cleveland.
I've been dieing to see this. I picked up a 351c with 4v heads and a c4 trans from a 71 stang. For $250cad. The old man was 92 years old and still building cars. I was impressed 👌
The 351C-4v was far and away the best small block offered during the muscle car era. I really loved this engine and had one in a 1967 notchback Mustang.
not all cleveland fans are in OZ,welcome from the UK,have a 351 4V in a 66 fairlane,boss pistons,unknown comp cam,edelbrock inlet and 850 double pumper and headers,this is food for thought.
I can't imagine many brits having clevelands besides enthusiasts, clevelands were just an engine back in Australia and your mom would have one in her falcon since fuel was cheap back in the day in aus
When was a teenager in 80s in Australia 351 where insane the smoked all other v8.been in heaps 351 got plenty memories they snap head back real quick.my mate had one in a xd station wagon it was insane to say they least.had to turn it off in drive thru in KFC just to order man that thing went.peace
The Cleveland is a very under appreciated engine love to see this test with a whipple twin screw and intercooler the hp potential on a stockish Cleveland is ridiculous… thx for work Richard best pure engine/horse power channel on youtube! Keep up the great work!
I have this in my 72 Mustang convertible - an M code and even found a D1ZX aluminum intake. Got the motor out of a wrecked Cougar Eliminator several decades ago. Love this motor. I beat my friends 396 SS Chevelle, which made me pretty happy. I've since added a toploader and a 9" rear ... such a fun drive. Thanks for spotlighting this...made me smile.
No matter what u do with these engines they make good power, thats what they were designed for, its so nice to see gus like you showing some of what these great engines really are capable of, thank for these awesome videos👍👍👍
Dano, big power is exactly what the design engineers had in mind. Unfortunately a combination of OPEC countries creating a false oil shortage to jack up gasoline prices, government regulations for reduced emissions, insurance companies penalizing high output vehicles and more all hit about the same time the Cleveland was released. It was a huge shit storm that put an end to all muscle car production by 1973. According to the few documents I could find, Ford had big plans for the Cleveland as the FE series was being phased out and they also knew that NASCAR Would soon be requiring mid-sized engines for competition. The Cleveland was going to be the engine of choice for virtually all forms of Motorsport competition. What factory engineer in his right mind would design an engine with such massive ports and valves if serious competition wasn’t on the agenda ? Although it was an available option for the family truckster grocery getter station wagon for a minute, that certainly wasn’t what the long term goal was.
I owned a 71 Boss 351 Mustang for many years, Torker intake, Holley carb, Crane F246 cam, and headers...was a beast. The 2.78 first gear in the Toploader with the 3.91 rear was perfect. Currently have a ‘62 Chevy II with a clone of a 71 LT-1 (flat top pistons), Muncie M-20 (2.54 first gear) and 3.73 rear, it is light and quick but there will ALWAYS be a place in my heart and garage for the 351C!!! The only boosted car in the garage is my son’s Civic hatch with a turbo B20 (total blast to drive!) but Richard, your videos REALLY have me thinking 🤔!!!!!
MW…The ‘71 Boss 351 was actually a beast in factory stock trim. I read all of the magazine test articles back then and it was one of the quickest quarter mile performers of all the Mustangs. In showroom stock trim it put the Boss 429 to shame with mid 13 second performance. With the upgrades you listed, it would be a TERROR ! I regret not buying one but I was into my ‘69 Mach 1, 428 CJ with ram air during that time.
My dad brought home a 1971 Boss Mustang on a hot summer's' evening when my 6 siblings and friends next door were playing football on the front lawn. We heard it ripping up the road and blasting past like a bullet. It was dusk so the running lights were on and it looked like a damn spaceship! It went out of sight over the next hill and as we all just stood there talking amongst ourselves as to what that was, we heard tires screaming and an engine roaring 1st, 2nd, 3rd CRAP! then up over the hill blistering towards us. Then the gearing down it went sideways into our side yard and stopped on the driveway. As the dust was clearing my dad steps out, I swear he looked like a NASA astronaut at that moment stepping out of that black beauty! OMG!! I was in love with that machine instantly! That car was crazy fast and that motor took some massive punishment from my dads lead foot. it was Truly a MUSTANG Stallion! I washed and waxed it every weekend. My dad gave it to me when I got my 1st job at Red & White Grocery Store when I was in the 10th grade. I was a car junky from then on and have had some nice rides since that day in my life. Unfortunately some (EVIL) dude, lol.. Came to our house and offered my dad some serious cash and my black beauty streaked away into my memories. I still have a lot of feelings about those days and that car, I wish I had her today... When I turned 18 I left Georgia for the San Fernando Valley, wow what an amazing time to be young and a car guy. I saw a 1969 Mach 1 at a street race that had been on the cover of Hot Rod magazine. It was Red, Lowered, big fat tires awesomely trimmed out interior that looked like a cockpit of a fighter jet packing a 351 C with a (PAXTON SUPERCHARGER)!!! 1st time I ever heard that beautiful sound! He raced a 1970 chevelle that had a 454 with a blower sticking out of the hood. The mustang blew out of the hole like a rocket and the chevelle front end went in the air... Mustang GONE!!! Great days!
Hi, Rich..... Thanks. God LOVES a Cleveland.... I am sure your fannage love the idea of a blown ( BOOM! ) 4 JUGGER.. And yes, M owners EVERYWHERE are clamoring for the BIG M with the blower... Is it possible, turbo wise, to put the ultime in free horse, to duplicate the cad-zilla syndrome on the BIG M? Also, 'round here, fresh air will soon be restricted... In tribute to fresh air everywhere ( unlike Sir HOLDENER, we live in a dead Sea zone...And not in the cali-4 knee hills, there's no rarefied air up there.... Yes, the loco politico's heads tend to be in disfunctional mode due to low oxygen about... You lucky dog... In altitude.there is absence. NO STEVE ABOUT..! GOD BLESS.
The problem with these engines beyond the bottom ends weren't very good is that they're the size and weight of a bbc while not having as good performance. Hell some bbc might be lighter with the factory aluminum heads and intake.
My brother N law had a 70 Torino GT with a 351 Cleveland 4 speed that ran the quarter mile in the low 13s and I still have a 71 Ranchero with a 351 Cleveland
I had a Q-code 73 351 Mach 1 Mustang in the late 70's . I wish a lot of things , but I really would wish that I had known about blow through boost back then , since that year the Q-code only had 7.9 comp ratio (I think) , and would have been a good candidate . It would rev pretty freely and it had 4-bolt mains straight across the crank . I know , because I put a hole in the oil pan (going too fast on a hilly road) , and had to remove it 😑 . I sure miss those days ! Love your channel !!
Thank you, Richard! I’m a 351 Cleveland fanatic, so loved this. How about trying a low-budget, junkyard, salvageable Turbo on the Boss 351? Btw, I’ve got a 4v, 351CLEVELAND, w ‘70 quench heads, ‘71 4bolt , .030 bored block that I’ll eventually put in my ‘64 Mercury Cyclone...one of these days.😃
Always been a Chevy guy, but have a lot respect for the Cleveland. The 2v head with an aftermarket 4v intake to match the heads made an amazing combo..
Do you remember the other one ? I think it was called "It's About Space or Time and Space . I watched "Lost" too . "I'm too young to die" , that guy was pretty queen , even for those days! 🪐
I had a mild 2v cleavland back in the early 90's in my LTD. What a great engine! So watching this brought back some very fond memories.👍 I took out the FMX 3speed and put in a FIOD trans with a 4pinion and 4:11 gears - it did a flat 13.0 down the quarter with some problems holdingnit back.
I have a built cleveland I'm about to put some boost to. About 7-8 lbs, what ever waste gate pressure is. I have a different build but the HP is about the same. This gives me a good idea of what to expect. My 600 hp goal looks easy.Still be a good daily and also a sleeper.
I knew they were good but I didn't expect the heads to be that good! Cam change monster! I get it now The Old pro stock guys like Bob Glidden did amazing things back in the day!
Cleveland country thankyou Richard, hahha. The 351c realy gave use the taste and feel of pinned to the seat. 10 hail marrys to ford. Thanks for anather awsome test Richard. Mad Mick .
🚫🤔 Hmmm....... After watching ^this video, you wanted to see a Charger!? This is strange.... Normally, when people start seeing Ford history and performance related stuff, they lose interest in ALL other car brands. That's the normal, healthy response. It's very concerning that after watching a Ford engine video, you STILL had a desire to see a Mopar product! Granted, it would be even more "troubling", if you'd expressed a desire to see Chevy stuff! I'm just going to recommend that you look at more Ford/Mercury related stuff. That should permanently wipe out any of these "errant desires" to see Mopar products! Watch some videos on 1964 and 1965 A/FX & B/FX Mercury Comets, some historical, mid 60s Ford GT40 LeMans videos, some Cobra stuff, and maybe some 1964 Thunderbolt Fairlane videos. That should cure you! 😁👍
@@HighlanderNorth1 I'm pretty sure he meant that he would like to see his 400 Ford build with the addition of the "super"charger he used on the 351C. Being that both engines are in the 335 series it should bolt right up. I would honestly like to see that too, even though I'm more partial to a turbocharger.
I am from the US and I love cleveland engines. I have a 2v from a 74 Fairlane I believe according to the code on it and I'm gonna do a sequential turbo setup and stuff it in my 2000 sonoma 🤪. Oh I'm planning on a modern fuel injection system as well with a racing setup dual fuel rails one set of smaller injectors for street and a bigger set for strip just cause I think it'd be cool.
Richard love all your videos and due diligence. I got one of these Cleveland's. Maybe thinking about give me a little extra help. Anyways brother keep up the great work love your shows always watch them always share them amen
Awesome. Would love to see you revisit this one.... especially correcting for the issues that you had with it.. Would love to hear this thing sing on the dyno... video maybe? 😁 just sayin..
Now I know you're a good guy, You loved Lost in space as much as I did and still do !!! Got all of em on DVD DANGER WILL ROBINSON alien approaching. All the best Sir.
Perfect for any Fox body! A lot less weight than a 460, although a 460 can be bored and stroked all the way to 557cid. But it's a lot heavier. That gives me an idea though: build another 557 and boost that! Roots, centrifugal, and turbo! Should be an 1100hp monster!
Thanks Richard I'm from Tamworth Aust and I have been really enjoying your work with the cleveland 351. Awesome engine. Really would love to see a comparison 4v vs 2v Aussi heads to dispell the myth that 4v is no good for street. Also with this engine with single plane. I have 4v single plane 750dp that pulls solid from 2k and is an animal from 3.5k to 6.5k . I think having the right combo is more important with 4v over 2v. Don't dispell a single plane on one of these for street use either. I have tried 3 different carb combinations, 750vs = Ok. 650dp = better. 750dp = best. And to my surprise the 750dp gave best low end in comparison to older Holley 4150 carb. To add this is with a single pattern high lift flat tappet hydraulic cam. An old crane 280h energiser 228 @ .50 . I think where I am going is that some things that may be intuitive may not necessarily be correct with the clevo 4v when comparing with other engines.
Blood Moon, your comments about how critical having the right combination for the 4-V heads setup for street use are right on the money. The single plane intake,750 DP along with a carefully selected cam is a monster on the street with the correct supporting parts. The correct differential gear ratio is equally important too. 👍
Usin History. Clevelands carried more lbs per cube than any other eng. in ProStock thru '70s. NHRA Wrld Chmpships Glidden 3* Nicholson 1* Gapp/Roush 1* U carried 300lbs more w/351C unless u ran the big cars & got a wt# break that still put U 150lbs over SBC's. Hence 4 door Mavericks & Fairmonts to battle the wt# penalty of a Cleveland. No Windsor head ever won a Championship using production heads. Gliddens '79 championship was the 340" Arrow when Mopar gave him a 1 mil.$$ contract for 3 yrs but went bankrupt after 1st yr.
I think the 426 Hemis were about the only thing were about as penalized as the Clevelands. Then they blew the dust off of the 385 series Boss 429, and it came in for cleanup duty after the Clevelands dominated the SB Pro Stock formula. Can't say the Windsor comment is all that relevant though; the Cleveland existed so that the Windsor could be a more street oriented engine(the Boss 302 was the first Clevor after all, it's not like Ford didn't know how to make power, even with the Windsor architecture), not to mention all the success the Windsor found in motorsports outside of professional level drag racing(numerous road racing championships throughout the world, a LOT of success in off-road racing, just to name a few). Both Clevelands and Windsors have their place.
@@RyTrapp0 426 hemi's are a disaster naturally aspirated. The straight cross flow design w/massively deep Combustion chambers are archaic by any head designs today. Im well versed in the Boss 429 history of NHRA Pro Stock. In IHRA W/unlimited cubic inches the .990" deep chambers were tolerable with Rickies 707"'s & later bigger engines. Only Glidden had any real success in NHRA 500" stuff. Yes. Frank Iaconio did win 1 race w/Boss 429 under the Kenny Bernstein Budwieser 'Super teams' program which got cancelled when Van Cleeve ran into the bk of Lori Johns while she was still on the track when they sent tge next pair down. Resulting in muti million dollar lawsuit & Kenny pulled all Bud money except his own in NHRA. If you want to know how and why Bob Glidden was successful w/the Boss 429. Look no further than 2 articles in Hot Rod magazine. July 1985. & follow up in Feb. '86. Having been apart of a Boss 429 ProStk program, which there were less than a handful, cuz the amt of wrk it took us to stand up the valves & tske the Combustion chambers from .990" deep to .665" deep, along with Widmers Swirl pad design he sold Bob Glidden in the winter of 1984 is why the Glidden boss 429 program was successful from 85-89. I also was 1 of 3 guys who built the Ford Probe Mad Dog won his last ever world championship. That car won its 1st 7 of the 1st 11 events that season. I could cover this era for days cuz I lived in it. Only guys like Roy Hill, Larry Huff, & a few others in early/mid '70s even tried w/the mopar stuff. It was horribly non competitive. They even got fantastic long wheelbase wt# breaks using Dusters w/108" whl base. U got wt# breaks for big cars & engines that didnt run. SBC's & BBCs got excellent wt# breaks, especially in the 108" whlbase- 2nd gen Camaro's. If we could have raced at equal wt# the Cleveland crowd would hav dominated nearly every yr. Our point to the Windsor is that its production head is junk. As so many guys today try to tout how great the Windsor stuff is. Just a slightly different valve angle SBC head design is all it is. Yes tge aftermarketheads are vastly improved. But only Dick Maskins had a custom head for Pro Stk. Well. Besides Bill Jenkins who had the 292 angle plug head nearly a yr before any other chevy racer had access. Wasnt until Bills car was stolen in East St.Louis and they took the engine/tranny from his car. I knew the guy who paid to hav it stolen. When he tk the heads to the best sbc porter in St. Charles.. Winterhoffs answer to these never before seen head castings is WTF are these? GM felt forced to release the proprietary head casting within 6 months. The guy who had the stolen Bill Jenkins eng blew it up, coming out of the waterbox at Gainsville the following Spring. The real irony was that Bills eng was nothing fancy. TRW pistons w/teflon buttons on skirts to take up wear/piston slap. The real secret was Bills Lenco in his car was good for a solid 1/10 of a second over a typical Leonard Abbott unit. Bill was very frugal and soent more time finding pwr in areas that were easy. Like reciprocating mass. We know this cause the guy who stole the eng shared what he had learned w/all the local racers to help quiet down the FBIs investigation. Bill convinced him he believed it was an interstate theft ring which is 1 criteria to get the black suits to chase down an eng thief. If U plan to school us on Pro stk racing or 351C & Boss 429 history U may wanna hav ur ducks in a row. We lived it. Didnt just read about it. Well versed in the Nick Arias Alan Roote saga of how tge Holman & Moody tooling went from there big auction to Ventura California where they made new versions of tooling as the original Boss 9 stuff was wore the phuck out when Alan bought it w/his dads money. Then Nick got tired of Alans ways & cut ties. So the "AR heads" that stood for 'Arias Roote' then became the 'AR heads' & blocks & magnesium intake manifolds of Alan Roote. All designed by Tom Roberts who wrked fir Nick till he hung out his own shingle. A Very convenient logo repurposing for Alan. Tom went on to do the patterns for the Line Of Site Gen 2 Boss 9 that dominated IHRA for yrs. Then they asked Kaase to share the technology with Sonny Leonard so the GM guys could actually compete. Nobody wanted to see only Fords win IHRA mountain motor racing. So Jon cooperated for the sake of the sport not dying. 1st race of the Sonny head.. IHRA tech bounced Sonnys head. Said look. U gotta at least make something look different than the Ford head Roberts designed. So they put that wavy edge on the exhaust side of the heads valve cover rail between the long exh rocker gear. Again. Days. Weeks of the facts of this era. Lost to all those who didnt actually live it. Nicholson gone. BG is gone. Frankie is still around. He remembers. Widmer who designed the heads both Bill Elliot became Million Dollars Bill with & the heads Mad Dog used the relocation of valve geometry to make the Boss 9 competitive. If U ran a stk Boss head. U couldnt crack 1000hp w/500" mtr.
I have a modified 351c 4v version With edlebrock torker intake single plane, 1.6 roller rockers forgot cam an piston brand but pistons are .010 over dome top, hooker long tube headers, holley 750 dp all mechanical. Makes more hp than the factory 390 my car came with and I couldn't be happier
Would love to see some tests of a 302 Cleveland build. And no, they are nothing like a Boss 302. Small port, 2V heads closed chamber and 9.2:1 compression. I don't think anyone has ever done a 302 Cleveland engine dyno video and modify the 302 to see where it could go.
i have had quite a few Clevelands as well as quite a few chevy combos and the Cleveland would run off from any of the others even my LS in my truck will not keep up with my Cleveland
I watched the original Lost in Space when it aired on regular network TV waaaaay back in the day. I think we learned Richard is a bad ass that just makes shit happen.
Really enjoyed this video despite not being a Ford fan (Holden / Chev fan through and through) but it was nice to see some dyno figures to go along with the engines we built decades ago. It confirmed what I long knew, that you need a healthy cam to get the most out of 4V heads. It was also very interesting to see how much of a dog the factory cast iron intake was. Was a heavy lump of poo.
I am pure Ford guy and I love all Ford Hi Perfomance engines, but the design of the Cleveland was mad buy a guy that came from GM to Ford back in the day that’s why the flow so good with the big GM style canted valve heads!
He's mentioned a few times that he has a buddy with a stock 429 that he'll loan for some testing, so we should see it sooner or later. I REALLY want to see a big bang 460 of course, but I'll take any BBF tech I can get! Ideally, it'd be awesome to see him work with someone like Paul Kane(High Flow Dynamics), who could probably help get Rich some GOOD factory heads to test like Cobra Jets & Police Interceptors or at least some worked Doves, really show off what a stock casting BBF is capable of(balls to the wall ported CJs can support ~800HP, pretty wicked for some worked 1970s production castings).
@@JoeyGarcia There are 2 versions of Aussie 2v heads (& 4v) Either open (mid 70's - early '80s low comp) or closed ( early '70s high comp) chambers. The 4v port was too big for street duties and needed big rpm, everyone went for closed chamber 2v down here. Now modern alu heads are the go to, no one uses old iron heads except resto guys.
@@philliplawford830 IMHO the 4Vs being "too big" for street use is myth. The stock B351 Richard tested didn't lack significantly in usable torque down at realistic RPMs. As shown by tests Richard and others have done, a narrow lobe separation (like some of Scott Main/CamResearch's grinds) can help canted valve Fords give away nothing, high or low. My B302 and 351C 4Vs have plenty of usable grunt for not just track or strip, but also for the street. Naturally, I don't use the same sort of cam grind as I do in my 2v engine, since they have limitations on usable valve lift, compared to 4V and 3V heads.. I generally do gear differently with the Boss or a 4V, not because of any serious lack of lower rpm grunt, but because where the 2V is nosing over on power, the Boss and 4Vs/3Vs are still pulling like runaway freight trains. And I still use the old iron heads I have, because they are usable. Two of my current engines use the aftermarket 3V style heads, and they have some advantages, like lighter weight, slightly more efficient combustion chamber and about the same flow utilizing less port volume=higher velocity in the ports. My iron B302 heads and the alloy 3V heads flow very nearly the same amount of air, with the amount of clean-up porting done to them. Two of my current builds use the old iron heads (1 is B302 & 1 is 302 Clevor 2V), and neither they or any of my vehicles have anything to do with resto. I have nothing to do with resto, either. When I get the 308 cube Clevor with AFD heads tested, I expect it will have similar max power numbers to the original iron-headed 311 cube Boss. The intakes are quite different, so I don't know how much, if any, better numbers the 3V version will show below 5600 or so rpm. I suspect it will be significantly "better" numbers down lower, but the old school iron Boss is not anything to sneeze at or take lightly, at any rpm above idle, in my opinion.
my dad had two of those in some 1970's mercury cougars, I remember when i was 11 or so... him saying something about it out pulling trucks even tho the curb weights were the same, low oil pressure in the rear end... poorly planned out oil passages... just looked that up, i have to say the oil pressure passages on the 2 valve OHC 281ci are much better. tho i now have to look back at that 4.6 V8.
Great video. I would love to see it with the inner cooler, bigger cam, ported cast iron heads, proper belt, aftermarket intake. Just wondering what the numbers would be.
Much better Richard. If you have to get a set of custom pulleys to go wider don't mess around and go 10 rib or better. Knowing how you modify parts maybe a roots rib belt system can be adapted?
Needs a cog drive sir I believe that is what you mean cog drive and oeat Jackson gear drive and on of them older style vortec super chargers that are all whiny and whistley
351 Cleveland is my favorite engine of all time!! From racing in Nascar to Ford Powered Street cars, Cleveland’s ROCK!!!
Yep. Right there!
Bob Glidden had a 32-0 season with his 78 Fairmont with the Cleve. Never lost a single round and i believe is the only undefeated record for a season in NHRA.
Glidden's Pro Stock win record was only surpassed by big corp. interests, while Glidden developed his own race engines, making him the Gate Keeper of big Ford power. His BBF Thunderbird and 1985 Pro Stock Championship solidified Glidden's spot in the NHRA Hall of Fame.
@@BobbyOfEarth
☑️ Yeah, and I think Bob Glidden used Boss 429 engines in his 1980's big block Pro Stock T-bird for at least 1 or more seasons. That just adds a whole other level of coolness to his racing history!
@@chadkent1241 Bullshit.
I had a old school engine builder tell me the best thing about a Cleveland 4V is the Port is so big that they could fill the floor of the intake port with epoxy and then work on the Port roof ending up with a funnel shape intake port with a almost straight shot at the valve. That engine builder was Carl Holbrook.
Kevin, the biggest problem with the factory iron 4-V heads is the exhaust ports. To fit between the narrow confines between Mustang and Cougar shock towers, the exhaust ports were designed with a restrictive ridge on the floor and a sharp downward turn at the exit. The Pro Stock builders fixed it by removing a large section of the exhaust port and installing an aluminum exhaust port plate. The exhaust flow has a straight shot out instead of being slowed down by the sharp downward turn. They also did as you suggested by filling the intake port floors with epoxy or an aluminum insert and raising the port roof. I have a set of them. They are called high port iron Cleveland heads. You can google it or check out DragBoss Garage on RUclips.
My dad brought home a 1971 Boss Mustang on a hot summer's' evening when my 6 siblings and friends next door were playing football on the front lawn. We heard it ripping up the road and blasting past like a bullet. It was dusk so the running lights were on and it looked like a damn spaceship! It went out of sight over the next hill and as we all just stood there talking amongst ourselves as to what that was, we heard tires screaming and an engine roaring 1st, 2nd, 3rd CRAP! then up over the hill blistering towards us. Then the gearing down it went sideways into our side yard and stopped on the driveway. As the dust was clearing my dad steps out, I swear he looked like a NASA astronaut at that moment stepping out of that black beauty! OMG!! I was in love with that machine instantly! That car was crazy fast and that motor took some massive punishment from my dads lead foot. it was Truly a MUSTANG Stallion! I washed and waxed it every weekend. My dad gave it to me when I got my 1st job at Red & White Grocery Store when I was in the 10th grade. I was a car junky from then on and have had some nice rides since that day in my life. Unfortunately some (EVIL) dude, lol.. Came to our house and offered my dad some serious cash and my black beauty streaked away into my memories. I still have a lot of feelings about those days and that car, I wish I had her today... When I turned 18 I left Georgia for the San Fernando Valley, wow what an amazing time to be young and a car guy. I saw a 1969 Mach 1 at a street race that had been on the cover of Hot Rod magazine. It was Red, Lowered, big fat tires awesomely trimmed out interior that looked like a cockpit of a fighter jet packing a 351 C with a (PAXTON SUPERCHARGER)!!! 1st time I ever heard that beautiful sound! He raced a 1970 chevelle that had a 454 with a blower sticking out of the hood. The mustang blew out of the hole like a rocket and the chevelle front end went in the air... Mustang GONE!!! Great days!
351 Cleveland, Giant slayer.
Yes we are us Aussies love the clevo😍
Mild boost, belt slipping. Still flirts with 700 hp. Gotta luv a Cleveland 👍
With factory heads and block! Ford built that engine to run!
Wow! Now that's a huge! I like that torque curve. Look how flat it is on the top end. That would make a super duper fun motor.
Yeah. He talked about how he installed a new cam, and he showed a picture of that cam install at 6:10. But imagine how much more power it would make if he actually pushed the cam in more, and installed it all the way into the engine! 😁
Man I'm so pleased you still make videos on these old SBF's, so many people still have em!
no such thing as a small block or big block ford. Those are terms chevy used.
FE Series. 385 Series. 335 series. The 351c is a Ford 335 series engine. It feels icky using chevy terms on a great Ford engine.
@@todsimpkins8908 … You’re absolutely correct about the small and big block terminology but this far along in the game there’s really no point in trying to change things. The general public can more easily relate to the engines using the GM nomenclature. Now if they would just stop referring to INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES, (ICE), as MOTORS, it would send a massive wave of understanding across the planet with WORLD PEACE ☮️ left in its wake.
Well … maybe not that dramatic 😳but one is electric powered and the other uses gasoline for fuel and nothing in common. It just sounds odd when a professional, educated builder calls an ICE….MOTOR 🤷♂️
@@danielwilson6665when you’re talking about a particular engine yes use the correct terminology because that’s the name of the engine we’re talking about not going to call it what it’s not
@@CoyoteFTW … 100% Agree. Just trying to get it right 🏁.
Always like to see the Cleveland stuff! I just had another 2V one given to me last week.
Jealous!
Yes! Cleveland are awesome! Needs a tunnel ram!
The 351 Cleveland. America's best kept secret. No one knows anything about it except the Australians....
I do, I've own a couple of them myself and I also have built a few for friends and or customers over the years. The 351C is my favorite small block Ford v8.
Haha so true.
@@lawnmowermanlawnmowerman9930 can you give me some advice for building a 351 Cleveland?
@@jesco6830 Stick with 2v heads for street/daily driver use, use clevite inserts for mains and rods, MSD for ignition, I like Badger or Mahle pistons, and you need to use a good high volumn oil pump, Chrome moly rings, brass head gaskets if you can get them. Felpro for all gaskets and seals. Find a good reputable machine shop to do your block and head work. You can't go wrong with a Cleveland !!!
@@lawnmowermanlawnmowerman9930 I plan on stroking it to a 393 or 408 and using 195 or 225 trickflow heads.
My 79 F150 has a mildly built 9:1 351C-2V. Edelbrock Intake, Barry Grant Carb, Crane Cam, Headman Headers, 2 1/2 duals with X pipe and 40 series Flowmasters. The X-Pipe really mellows the 40 series Flowmasters. C-4 upgraded internals and shift kit, 3:55 gears with 30 inch rubber. 15 mpg around town, 18 mpg on highway running steady 70 mph. Smokes the tires when wanted and stone dead reliable. Estimated 325hp/380 torque Net readings with Water pump, power steering and Alternator according to my dyno software on my PC. Love my Cleveland.
I've been dieing to see this. I picked up a 351c with 4v heads and a c4 trans from a 71 stang. For $250cad. The old man was 92 years old and still building cars. I was impressed 👌
Troy, even if those heads are the less desirable 4V open chamber design, you got an excellent deal for sure 👍
The 351C-4v was far and away the best small block offered during the muscle car era. I really loved this engine and had one in a 1967 notchback Mustang.
not all cleveland fans are in OZ,welcome from the UK,have a 351 4V in a 66 fairlane,boss pistons,unknown comp cam,edelbrock inlet and 850 double pumper and headers,this is food for thought.
I can't imagine many brits having clevelands besides enthusiasts, clevelands were just an engine back in Australia and your mom would have one in her falcon since fuel was cheap back in the day in aus
I love Clevelands. Thanks for the content.
Thank You Richard. Love to see Cleveland builds.
When was a teenager in 80s in Australia 351 where insane the smoked all other v8.been in heaps 351 got plenty memories they snap head back real quick.my mate had one in a xd station wagon it was insane to say they least.had to turn it off in drive thru in KFC just to order man that thing went.peace
The Cleveland is a very under appreciated engine love to see this test with a whipple twin screw and intercooler the hp potential on a stockish Cleveland is ridiculous… thx for work Richard best pure engine/horse power channel on youtube! Keep up the great work!
I have this in my 72 Mustang convertible - an M code and even found a D1ZX aluminum intake. Got the motor out of a wrecked Cougar Eliminator several decades ago. Love this motor. I beat my friends 396 SS Chevelle, which made me pretty happy. I've since added a toploader and a 9" rear ... such a fun drive. Thanks for spotlighting this...made me smile.
No matter what u do with these engines they make good power, thats what they were designed for, its so nice to see gus like you showing some of what these great engines really are capable of, thank for these awesome videos👍👍👍
Dano, big power is exactly what the design engineers had in mind. Unfortunately a combination of OPEC countries creating a false oil shortage to jack up gasoline prices, government regulations for reduced emissions, insurance companies penalizing high output vehicles and more all hit about the same time the Cleveland was released. It was a huge shit storm that put an end to all muscle car production by 1973. According to the few documents I could find, Ford had big plans for the Cleveland as the FE series was being phased out and they also knew that NASCAR Would soon be requiring mid-sized engines for competition. The Cleveland was going to be the engine of choice for virtually all forms of Motorsport competition.
What factory engineer in his right mind would design an engine with such massive ports and valves if serious competition wasn’t on the agenda ? Although it was an available option for the family truckster grocery getter station wagon for a minute, that certainly wasn’t what the long term goal was.
I owned a 71 Boss 351 Mustang for many years, Torker intake, Holley carb, Crane F246 cam, and headers...was a beast. The 2.78 first gear in the Toploader with the 3.91 rear was perfect. Currently have a ‘62 Chevy II with a clone of a 71 LT-1 (flat top pistons), Muncie M-20 (2.54 first gear) and 3.73 rear, it is light and quick but there will ALWAYS be a place in my heart and garage for the 351C!!! The only boosted car in the garage is my son’s Civic hatch with a turbo B20 (total blast to drive!) but Richard, your videos REALLY have me thinking 🤔!!!!!
MW…The ‘71 Boss 351 was actually a beast in factory stock trim. I read all of the magazine test articles back then and it was one of the quickest quarter mile performers of all the Mustangs. In showroom stock trim it put the Boss 429 to shame with mid 13 second performance. With the upgrades you listed, it would be a TERROR ! I regret not buying one but I was into my ‘69 Mach 1, 428 CJ with ram air during that time.
My dad brought home a 1971 Boss Mustang on a hot summer's' evening when my 6 siblings and friends next door were playing football on the front lawn. We heard it ripping up the road and blasting past like a bullet. It was dusk so the running lights were on and it looked like a damn spaceship! It went out of sight over the next hill and as we all just stood there talking amongst ourselves as to what that was, we heard tires screaming and an engine roaring 1st, 2nd, 3rd CRAP! then up over the hill blistering towards us. Then the gearing down it went sideways into our side yard and stopped on the driveway. As the dust was clearing my dad steps out, I swear he looked like a NASA astronaut at that moment stepping out of that black beauty! OMG!! I was in love with that machine instantly! That car was crazy fast and that motor took some massive punishment from my dads lead foot. it was Truly a MUSTANG Stallion! I washed and waxed it every weekend. My dad gave it to me when I got my 1st job at Red & White Grocery Store when I was in the 10th grade. I was a car junky from then on and have had some nice rides since that day in my life. Unfortunately some (EVIL) dude, lol.. Came to our house and offered my dad some serious cash and my black beauty streaked away into my memories. I still have a lot of feelings about those days and that car, I wish I had her today... When I turned 18 I left Georgia for the San Fernando Valley, wow what an amazing time to be young and a car guy. I saw a 1969 Mach 1 at a street race that had been on the cover of Hot Rod magazine. It was Red, Lowered, big fat tires awesomely trimmed out interior that looked like a cockpit of a fighter jet packing a 351 C with a (PAXTON SUPERCHARGER)!!! 1st time I ever heard that beautiful sound! He raced a 1970 chevelle that had a 454 with a blower sticking out of the hood. The mustang blew out of the hole like a rocket and the chevelle front end went in the air... Mustang GONE!!! Great days!
"Danger Rich Holdener - DANGER!" (arms flailing & lights a flashin)
yes
Hi, Rich.....
Thanks.
God LOVES a Cleveland....
I am sure your fannage love the idea of a blown ( BOOM! ) 4 JUGGER..
And yes, M owners EVERYWHERE are clamoring for the BIG M with the blower...
Is it possible, turbo wise, to put the ultime in free horse, to duplicate the cad-zilla syndrome on the BIG M?
Also, 'round here, fresh air will soon be restricted...
In tribute to fresh air everywhere ( unlike Sir HOLDENER, we live in a dead Sea zone...And not in the cali-4 knee hills, there's no rarefied air up there....
Yes, the loco politico's heads tend to be in disfunctional mode due to low oxygen about...
You lucky dog...
In altitude.there is absence.
NO STEVE ABOUT..!
GOD BLESS.
My first car was a '71 Mach 1 with a 351C-4V. That motor came alive with a hot cam, headers and an 850 Holley carb, even with the original intake.
1980,s ,Clevelands. Top loader. Nine inch.
Goodbye bf goodrich radial TA!
Your the best, much love for all you do for us! And a big thank you Richard!
I’m a Chevy fan but this motor impressed me.
@Brock Main3 I totally agree. It’s nice to see a variety and the innovations of each manufacturer.
The problem with these engines beyond the bottom ends weren't very good is that they're the size and weight of a bbc while not having as good performance. Hell some bbc might be lighter with the factory aluminum heads and intake.
@@HioSSilver1999 no they are a small block you're confusing it with a 351M
@@vernonknight9455 no...I'm looking at the size, weight and deck height. With that i come to the conclusion it's big block size.
@@HioSSilver1999 9.2 deck height 351W 9.5 BBC 9.8ish 351M 400 10.3
Clevo!! Yes!!!! Hi from Tamworth Australia :D
do you have King Browns in your area?
Also from Tamworth Aust. Yes they are all over most of Aust but not a problem for most people.
That’s an impressive toque curve!
My brother N law had a 70 Torino GT with a 351 Cleveland 4 speed that ran the quarter mile in the low 13s and I still have a 71 Ranchero with a 351 Cleveland
👍 Good build.
Present, Sir! I'm a Cleveland guy. Because boost makes everything better.
Clevelands Rock, not just the power but the sound they make around 5500 rpms. Wish we could hear that Paxton!
I had a Q-code 73 351 Mach 1 Mustang in the late 70's . I wish a lot of things , but I really would wish that I had known about blow through boost back then , since that year the Q-code only had 7.9 comp ratio (I think) , and would have been a good candidate . It would rev pretty freely and it had 4-bolt mains straight across the crank . I know , because I put a hole in the oil pan (going too fast on a hilly road) , and had to remove it 😑 . I sure miss those days ! Love your channel !!
Thank you, Richard! I’m a 351 Cleveland fanatic, so loved this.
How about trying a low-budget, junkyard, salvageable Turbo on the Boss 351?
Btw, I’ve got a 4v, 351CLEVELAND, w ‘70 quench heads, ‘71 4bolt , .030 bored block that I’ll eventually put in my ‘64 Mercury Cyclone...one of these days.😃
VERY HARD TO FIND ANY MORE
Mine was in a 71 Pantera...it was fun
My dream car.
My neighbor had a yellow 74. They had to redo the heads on it and ran it with open headers for a test. Pure music👍
It's my turn today...I love this one.
We want to see More of this.🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗
Always been a Chevy guy, but have a lot respect for the Cleveland. The 2v head with an aftermarket 4v intake to match the heads made an amazing combo..
Defiantly had some great low end torque and was still very potent on the top...
I used to watch Lost in Space series every Sunday morning before church!
Do you remember the other one ? I think it was called "It's About Space or Time and Space . I watched "Lost" too . "I'm too young to die" , that guy was pretty queen , even for those days! 🪐
I had a mild 2v cleavland back in the early 90's in my LTD. What a great engine!
So watching this brought back some very fond memories.👍
I took out the FMX 3speed and put in a FIOD trans with a 4pinion and 4:11 gears - it did a flat 13.0 down the quarter with some problems holdingnit back.
Probably was a 351m. Most people don't know the difference.
I have a built cleveland I'm about to put some boost to. About 7-8 lbs, what ever waste gate pressure is. I have a different build but the HP is about the same. This gives me a good idea of what to expect. My 600 hp goal looks easy.Still be a good daily and also a sleeper.
I knew they were good but I didn't expect the heads to be that good! Cam change monster! I get it now The Old pro stock guys like Bob Glidden did amazing things back in the day!
Ok, Lost In Space? Richard, you are, yet again, my hero.
351C fan since 1980 here in Michigan.
There’s a good reason we’re clevo fans, great engines!! Check out TM Meyer, they’re making their own Cleveland bock
I had a 72 mach1 with 2V Cleveland and later had a 70 mach1 with 4V Cleveland .Loved the Cleveland motor.
The 351 Cleveland was the most powerful small block.
Cleveland country thankyou Richard, hahha. The 351c realy gave use the taste and feel of pinned to the seat. 10 hail marrys to ford. Thanks for anather awsome test Richard. Mad Mick .
Awesome!! Would love to have lend you my rare 4V Bud Moore “NASCAR” intake for a N/A test with some big rpm’s 💪🏼🏁
69JANKS… With a suitable long block with components worthy of that Bud Moore intake, that would be totally badass 🏁.
@@danielwilson6665 👍🏼🏁
My favorite v8!! Tough as a Bullitt
They are an awesome engine problem is hard to find parts for them 😊
Would love to see the charger on the the 400 you built.
🚫🤔 Hmmm....... After watching ^this video, you wanted to see a Charger!? This is strange.... Normally, when people start seeing Ford history and performance related stuff, they lose interest in ALL other car brands. That's the normal, healthy response. It's very concerning that after watching a Ford engine video, you STILL had a desire to see a Mopar product! Granted, it would be even more "troubling", if you'd expressed a desire to see Chevy stuff!
I'm just going to recommend that you look at more Ford/Mercury related stuff. That should permanently wipe out any of these "errant desires" to see Mopar products! Watch some videos on 1964 and 1965 A/FX & B/FX Mercury Comets, some historical, mid 60s Ford GT40 LeMans videos, some Cobra stuff, and maybe some 1964 Thunderbolt Fairlane videos. That should cure you! 😁👍
@Hunter Limbach
It was! Although I'm mainly a Ford guy, I'm driving my Dodge Ram pickup right now! 😁
That 400 build was bad! One of my favorite he has done
@@HighlanderNorth1 I'm pretty sure he meant that he would like to see his 400 Ford build with the addition of the "super"charger he used on the 351C. Being that both engines are in the 335 series it should bolt right up. I would honestly like to see that too, even though I'm more partial to a turbocharger.
@@g44sarge
Is the 400M block strong from the standpoint of a performance build?
Hell Yeah!!! 351C all day !!!! Not modern not big hp but I love it! From Aus.
When there's a will there's a way. Cool to see.
I am from the US and I love cleveland engines. I have a 2v from a 74 Fairlane I believe according to the code on it and I'm gonna do a sequential turbo setup and stuff it in my 2000 sonoma 🤪. Oh I'm planning on a modern fuel injection system as well with a racing setup dual fuel rails one set of smaller injectors for street and a bigger set for strip just cause I think it'd be cool.
Richard you are the best engine guy and I love my 351c/408c stroker love you here in Oz
Very good Richard. Thank you for this.🎉😊
Now you gotta boost a clevor. And then Cleveland with boss heads
Richard love all your videos and due diligence. I got one of these Cleveland's. Maybe thinking about give me a little extra help. Anyways brother keep up the great work love your shows always watch them always share them amen
Shout out to you brother,i ❤ my Cleveland s please keep testing them on tube, cheers from down under👌😆👍
Awesome. Would love to see you revisit this one.... especially correcting for the issues that you had with it.. Would love to hear this thing sing on the dyno... video maybe? 😁 just sayin..
My '70 Mach 1 was damn fast with the 351C4V - I never lost a race against a 350 Camaro.
I had a Boss351c, great motor. Sounds great wound out.
Great to see the Clevo getting some love. We love them in Fords down here in Oz
XB turbo 351 m.ruclips.net/video/117dHt1a74k/видео.html
Now I know you're a good guy, You loved Lost in space as much as I did and still do !!! Got all of em on DVD
DANGER WILL ROBINSON alien approaching.
All the best Sir.
I'm still a big fan-even watched the Netflicks version-loved that they used the original Robot voice
Perfect for any Fox body! A lot less weight than a 460, although a 460 can be bored and stroked all the way to 557cid. But it's a lot heavier. That gives me an idea though: build another 557 and boost that! Roots, centrifugal, and turbo! Should be an 1100hp monster!
Richard great work we really enjoyed this
Danger Will Robinson!
It seems John Kaase agrees with your finding on the strongest family. I know he used it to make his Engine Masters winners.
Love my 1970 ranchero 351 cleve o 4v. With the correct parts a 7500 screamer
I had a 351 Cleveland in a 67 mustang. Definitely a tire Roaster. ❤️❤️❤️🏁🏁🏁
Thanks Richard I'm from Tamworth Aust and I have been really enjoying your work with the cleveland 351.
Awesome engine. Really would love to see a comparison 4v vs 2v Aussi heads to dispell the myth that 4v is no good for street. Also with this engine with single plane. I have 4v single plane 750dp that pulls solid from 2k and is an animal from 3.5k to 6.5k . I think having the right combo is more important with 4v over 2v. Don't dispell a single plane on one of these for street use either.
I have tried 3 different carb combinations, 750vs = Ok. 650dp = better. 750dp = best. And to my surprise the 750dp gave best low end in comparison to older Holley 4150 carb. To add this is with a single pattern high lift flat tappet hydraulic cam. An old crane 280h energiser 228 @ .50 .
I think where I am going is that some things that may be intuitive may not necessarily be correct with the clevo 4v when comparing with other engines.
Blood Moon, your comments about how critical having the right combination for the 4-V heads setup for street use are right on the money. The single plane intake,750 DP along with a carefully selected cam is a monster on the street with the correct supporting parts. The correct differential gear ratio is equally important too. 👍
This engine would be a total blast in my 64 comet cyclone!
The Netflix remake is a lot better than I thought it would be.
A Scott Cook dual plane looks factory stock, but flows somewhat better. Might have been interesting.
Usin History. Clevelands carried more lbs per cube than any other eng. in ProStock thru '70s. NHRA
Wrld Chmpships Glidden 3* Nicholson 1* Gapp/Roush 1*
U carried 300lbs more w/351C unless u ran the big cars & got a wt# break that still put U 150lbs over SBC's. Hence 4 door Mavericks & Fairmonts to battle the wt# penalty of a Cleveland.
No Windsor head ever won a Championship using production heads. Gliddens '79 championship was the 340" Arrow when Mopar gave him a 1 mil.$$ contract for 3 yrs but went bankrupt after 1st yr.
I think the 426 Hemis were about the only thing were about as penalized as the Clevelands. Then they blew the dust off of the 385 series Boss 429, and it came in for cleanup duty after the Clevelands dominated the SB Pro Stock formula.
Can't say the Windsor comment is all that relevant though; the Cleveland existed so that the Windsor could be a more street oriented engine(the Boss 302 was the first Clevor after all, it's not like Ford didn't know how to make power, even with the Windsor architecture), not to mention all the success the Windsor found in motorsports outside of professional level drag racing(numerous road racing championships throughout the world, a LOT of success in off-road racing, just to name a few). Both Clevelands and Windsors have their place.
@@RyTrapp0 426 hemi's are a disaster naturally aspirated. The straight cross flow design w/massively deep Combustion chambers are archaic by any head designs today. Im well versed in the Boss 429 history of NHRA Pro Stock. In IHRA W/unlimited cubic inches the .990" deep chambers were tolerable with Rickies 707"'s & later bigger engines. Only Glidden had any real success in NHRA 500" stuff. Yes. Frank Iaconio did win 1 race w/Boss 429 under the Kenny Bernstein Budwieser 'Super teams' program which got cancelled when Van Cleeve ran into the bk of Lori Johns while she was still on the track when they sent tge next pair down. Resulting in muti million dollar lawsuit & Kenny pulled all Bud money except his own in NHRA.
If you want to know how and why Bob Glidden was successful w/the Boss 429. Look no further than 2 articles in Hot Rod magazine. July 1985. & follow up in Feb. '86. Having been apart of a Boss 429 ProStk program, which there were less than a handful, cuz the amt of wrk it took us to stand up the valves & tske the Combustion chambers from .990" deep to .665" deep, along with Widmers Swirl pad design he sold Bob Glidden in the winter of 1984 is why the Glidden boss 429 program was successful from 85-89.
I also was 1 of 3 guys who built the Ford Probe Mad Dog won his last ever world championship. That car won its 1st 7 of the 1st 11 events that season. I could cover this era for days cuz I lived in it.
Only guys like Roy Hill, Larry Huff, & a few others in early/mid '70s even tried w/the mopar stuff. It was horribly non competitive. They even got fantastic long wheelbase wt# breaks using Dusters w/108" whl base. U got wt# breaks for big cars & engines that didnt run. SBC's & BBCs got excellent wt# breaks, especially in the 108" whlbase- 2nd gen Camaro's.
If we could have raced at equal wt# the Cleveland crowd would hav dominated nearly every yr. Our point to the Windsor is that its production head is junk. As so many guys today try to tout how great the Windsor stuff is. Just a slightly different valve angle SBC head design is all it is. Yes tge aftermarketheads are vastly improved. But only Dick Maskins had a custom head for Pro Stk. Well. Besides Bill Jenkins who had the 292 angle plug head nearly a yr before any other chevy racer had access. Wasnt until Bills car was stolen in East St.Louis and they took the engine/tranny from his car. I knew the guy who paid to hav it stolen. When he tk the heads to the best sbc porter in St. Charles.. Winterhoffs answer to these never before seen head castings is WTF are these? GM felt forced to release the proprietary head casting within 6 months.
The guy who had the stolen Bill Jenkins eng blew it up, coming out of the waterbox at Gainsville the following Spring. The real irony was that Bills eng was nothing fancy. TRW pistons w/teflon buttons on skirts to take up wear/piston slap. The real secret was Bills Lenco in his car was good for a solid 1/10 of a second over a typical Leonard Abbott unit. Bill was very frugal and soent more time finding pwr in areas that were easy. Like reciprocating mass. We know this cause the guy who stole the eng shared what he had learned w/all the local racers to help quiet down the FBIs investigation. Bill convinced him he believed it was an interstate theft ring which is 1 criteria to get the black suits to chase down an eng thief. If U plan to school us on Pro stk racing or 351C & Boss 429 history U may wanna hav ur ducks in a row. We lived it. Didnt just read about it. Well versed in the Nick Arias Alan Roote saga of how tge Holman & Moody tooling went from there big auction to Ventura California where they made new versions of tooling as the original Boss 9 stuff was wore the phuck out when Alan bought it w/his dads money. Then Nick got tired of Alans ways & cut ties. So the "AR heads" that stood for 'Arias Roote' then became the 'AR heads' & blocks & magnesium intake manifolds of Alan Roote. All designed by Tom Roberts who wrked fir Nick till he hung out his own shingle. A Very convenient logo repurposing for Alan.
Tom went on to do the patterns for the Line Of Site Gen 2 Boss 9 that dominated IHRA for yrs. Then they asked Kaase to share the technology with Sonny Leonard so the GM guys could actually compete. Nobody wanted to see only Fords win IHRA mountain motor racing. So Jon cooperated for the sake of the sport not dying.
1st race of the Sonny head.. IHRA tech bounced Sonnys head. Said look. U gotta at least make something look different than the Ford head Roberts designed. So they put that wavy edge on the exhaust side of the heads valve cover rail between the long exh rocker gear.
Again. Days. Weeks of the facts of this era. Lost to all those who didnt actually live it. Nicholson gone. BG is gone. Frankie is still around. He remembers.
Widmer who designed the heads both Bill Elliot became Million Dollars Bill with & the heads Mad Dog used the relocation of valve geometry to make the Boss 9 competitive. If U ran a stk Boss head. U couldnt crack 1000hp w/500" mtr.
I have a modified 351c 4v version With edlebrock torker intake single plane, 1.6 roller rockers forgot cam an piston brand but pistons are .010 over dome top, hooker long tube headers, holley 750 dp all mechanical. Makes more hp than the factory 390 my car came with and I couldn't be happier
Would love to see some tests of a 302 Cleveland build.
And no, they are nothing like a Boss 302. Small port, 2V heads closed chamber and 9.2:1 compression.
I don't think anyone has ever done a 302 Cleveland engine dyno video and modify the 302 to see where it could go.
i have had quite a few Clevelands as well as quite a few chevy combos and the Cleveland would run off from any of the others even my LS in my truck will not keep up with my Cleveland
I watched the original Lost in Space when it aired on regular network TV waaaaay back in the day.
I think we learned Richard is a bad ass that just makes shit happen.
The Cleveland is one of my favorite motors
Would love to see a turboed Boss 300 with the Cleveland head
351 Cleveland is the most interesting engine i really wanna to build one has to settle for a 289 mild build Cleveland is the one you want.
Really enjoyed this video despite not being a Ford fan (Holden / Chev fan through and through) but it was nice to see some dyno figures to go along with the engines we built decades ago. It confirmed what I long knew, that you need a healthy cam to get the most out of 4V heads. It was also very interesting to see how much of a dog the factory cast iron intake was. Was a heavy lump of poo.
Sounds like you're describing the garbage you run, "fee fiftty fourbarrel, whiffa four speed, is a junkyard of poo!!!
I am pure Ford guy and I love all Ford Hi Perfomance engines, but the design of the Cleveland was mad buy a guy that came from GM to Ford back in the day that’s why the flow so good with the big GM style canted valve heads!
That’s awesome. You should turbo a 460!!!
agreed
Hopefully with a borrowed set of P51 heads! 😁
He's mentioned a few times that he has a buddy with a stock 429 that he'll loan for some testing, so we should see it sooner or later. I REALLY want to see a big bang 460 of course, but I'll take any BBF tech I can get! Ideally, it'd be awesome to see him work with someone like Paul Kane(High Flow Dynamics), who could probably help get Rich some GOOD factory heads to test like Cobra Jets & Police Interceptors or at least some worked Doves, really show off what a stock casting BBF is capable of(balls to the wall ported CJs can support ~800HP, pretty wicked for some worked 1970s production castings).
Cleveland’s are great, have a CHI headed 393, 608@6950
I love this clip and have got some of theme heads!
Thank You Richard. I want to do an Aussie 2V Iron Head build to see how well that can do.
That would be cool. I have read that the Australian 2V is like the best of both worlds between a typical 2V and 4V
@@JoeyGarcia I have most all the main parts just not the bucks for the Machine Shop...Shall see what the future holds.
@@JoeyGarcia There are 2 versions of Aussie 2v heads (& 4v)
Either open (mid 70's - early '80s low comp) or closed ( early '70s high comp) chambers.
The 4v port was too big for street duties and needed big rpm, everyone went for closed chamber 2v down here. Now modern alu heads are the go to, no one uses old iron heads except resto guys.
@@philliplawford830 Thanks for the info! That's good to know. I do agree that Aluminum heads would be better.
@@philliplawford830 IMHO the 4Vs being "too big" for street use is myth. The stock B351 Richard tested didn't lack significantly in usable torque down at realistic RPMs. As shown by tests Richard and others have done, a narrow lobe separation (like some of Scott Main/CamResearch's grinds) can help canted valve Fords give away nothing, high or low. My B302 and 351C 4Vs have plenty of usable grunt for not just track or strip, but also for the street. Naturally, I don't use the same sort of cam grind as I do in my 2v engine, since they have limitations on usable valve lift, compared to 4V and 3V heads.. I generally do gear differently with the Boss or a 4V, not because of any serious lack of lower rpm grunt, but because where the 2V is nosing over on power, the Boss and 4Vs/3Vs are still pulling like runaway freight trains.
And I still use the old iron heads I have, because they are usable. Two of my current engines use the aftermarket 3V style heads, and they have some advantages, like lighter weight, slightly more efficient combustion chamber and about the same flow utilizing less port volume=higher velocity in the ports. My iron B302 heads and the alloy 3V heads flow very nearly the same amount of air, with the amount of clean-up porting done to them. Two of my current builds use the old iron heads (1 is B302 & 1 is 302 Clevor 2V), and neither they or any of my vehicles have anything to do with resto. I have nothing to do with resto, either. When I get the 308 cube Clevor with AFD heads tested, I expect it will have similar max power numbers to the original iron-headed 311 cube Boss. The intakes are quite different, so I don't know how much, if any, better numbers the 3V version will show below 5600 or so rpm. I suspect it will be significantly "better" numbers down lower, but the old school iron Boss is not anything to sneeze at or take lightly, at any rpm above idle, in my opinion.
Yeah absolutely love my stroker clevland plenty of power and reliable aswell
122k awesome seeing this channel grow
my dad had two of those in some 1970's mercury cougars, I remember when i was 11 or so... him saying something about it out pulling trucks even tho the curb weights were the same, low oil pressure in the rear end... poorly planned out oil passages... just looked that up, i have to say the oil pressure passages on the 2 valve OHC 281ci are much better. tho i now have to look back at that 4.6 V8.
Richard I recently ordered a Torqstorm Supercharger for my 351C. I will be documenting the install and results through RUclips videos.
THOSE ARE GOOD 700-750 HP BLOWERS
That was great! I have a 351 C in my 67 Mustang much better then the old 289! I would love to see you do more with the 351 C:)
Thank you richard
Great video. I would love to see it with the inner cooler, bigger cam, ported cast iron heads, proper belt, aftermarket intake. Just wondering what the numbers would be.
750+ at least… wrap a Pantera around it 😂😂😂🤙🏻🇺🇸
Danger, Will Robinson!
Cleveland fan here
Much better Richard. If you have to get a set of custom pulleys to go wider don't mess around and go 10 rib or better. Knowing how you modify parts maybe a roots rib belt system can be adapted?
Needs a cog drive sir I believe that is what you mean cog drive and oeat Jackson gear drive and on of them older style vortec super chargers that are all whiny and whistley