Rolling and parrying ultimately serve the same purpose and that’s to help the player avoid taking damage. I like rolling because it’s not only about the I-frames, it’s also a tool for repositioning. I would like to see parries being used more as the main way to avoid damage, but I don’t think dodging has to die at all.
Conversely, in some games one may be able to use repositioning moves and tools for evasion. Soulstice for example has as one of the seven total weapons a pair of punch daggers, called the Merciful Blades. One of the moves is an uppercut that launches the player characters into the sky, and holding the attack button has her performing RAPID punches that heavily slow down her descent. Another weapon by name of the Fiery Zealots, a pair of cannon tonfas, leans into the repositioning even more. Whenever the Fiery Zealots blast, they push back the player character due to recoil, especially so with the three-hit-combo in the sky. Just three blasts that push her away farther from the opponent. There's also two kinds of far-reaching attacks for her with the Fiery Zealots. One of them is a double blast behind her that sends her into a direction, with the tonfas spinning for rapid double hits from the recoil, but has a kinda long recovery time. The other one is a leap that ends with her slamming down the tonfas into the ground, which i believe may double as a launcher, and has a much faster recovery time.
@@nsk1911 sekiro has the opposite issue where dodging is almost worthless(unless you use feather tool). this is why bloodborne to this day still plays the best out of all of them: because the quickstep is a useful evasion tool, AND shooting to parry is not only far more functional than dark souls parrying, but is an engaging way to avoid damage. the best souls game that's yet to be made is the one that has a good dodge, a good block, AND a good parry, since those three tools do different things.
With evasion in games, it's basically always this: Unless you want to fully commit to hard footsies, you're going to want some quick movement, and it's always going to look like some flavor of quick movement in direction. There's definitely ways to change it up more, especially the invincibility can be questioned if it truly fits the combat style. That said, the resolution at which you want to call certain dodge tech different or the same is very arbitrary, and it certainly shouldn't be said that the dodge roll needs to die. It seems to me rather the opposite "the dodge has a lot of design space to explore and we should go into it" That means EXPANDING on the dodge roll rather than killing it.
@@EsWhySeePe That's a fair point. I guess I just find it hard to distinguish whether the criticism is levied at the dodge roll as an animation choice or as a gameplay mechanic with invincibility and everything, as these points are conflated in the video sometimes, so I wanted to defend dodges mechanically. But yeah, there's a lot of things animation can do to make a games dodge mechanic feel visually distinct. Slides, dashes, flip jumps, you name it. I do think the classic roll animation does have some properties that make me get why they are inherently gravitated towards in some use cases. I can make a list if you want.
Why does a game need a dodge button at all? You should watch an experienced player play an NES game like Castlevania or a SNES game like Actraiser 2. If any of you that grew up on modern games played them you would think the characters are too slow and need a dodge roll. They don't, and the games are better for it.
@@davidaitken8503 As I said, it's fully possible to commit to footsies, and there's a lot of complexity to be found in there as well. That said, those Nes games also used to have a jump most of the time as a limited vertical escape option, so it's not like every NES game was pure spacing hell. It is very notable that jumps in 3D games aren't worth crap, so an alternative is very much needed to preserve the "spirit" of some of the jumps functionality. I'd argue that a good dash in 3d games might be closer to the classic experience of a NES game with a good jump than a 3D game with a good jump is.
@@davidaitken8503What a surprise-completely different games, from different eras, built with different tools, and possessing different design philosophies, also happen to have different mechanics. What a world.
I think the big issue for me is that so often your dodge roll or evasive maneuver is just straight up a better option then your block or parry. For example, in Breath of the Wild, even if you don't get the flurry rush with your backflip, you might still avoid the attack and manage to get some damage in before the enemy rears up another attack. But if you miss-time your parry, which seems much harder to time for me, you'll either lose shield durability or take full damage. And you don't even get a special attack for parrying like yo do with flurry rush. So dodging becomes a low risk, high reward maneuver, while parrying is the opposite. I've been playing Lies of P recently and that game does a great job of balancing out its dodge and guard/parry. While your dodge roll is the typical Fromsoft fare, with the I-frames and whatnot, it still encourages you to learn to parry. For starters, enemies and bosses can sometimes perform 'fury attacks', which are attacks that can not be i-framed through or simply blocked. You either have to get right out of the way of them, which isn't always possible, or go for the parry. On top of that, guarding regular attacks not only significantly reduces damage received, but also turns a large portion of the damage you do receive into 'guard regain', which is HP you can get back by attacking the enemy. And of course a well timed parry will negate damage entirely. Better yet, parries deal both 'stagger damage' and 'destruction damage' to the enemy. Stagger damage, as the name implies, is something that will case the enemy to stagger once you've dealt enough of it. You can then knock them down with a strong attack, allowing for an opportunity to safely perform massive damage. While Destruction damage is damage dealt to an enemies weapon and can basically only be dealt by parrying. After you've dealt enough destruction, the enemies weapon will straight up just break clean in two, reducing both the range and damage dealt by most of their attacks. This goes for bosses as well. So with Lies of P, guarding and parrying come with risks, but also greater rewards. Whereas dodging might be easier in some cases, but also doesn't reward you nearly as much. Basically, the game balances it's defensive options really well. I started having a much easier time with the game when I stopped playing it like an average souls game and started making use of the parry more.
That's...That's actually genius. Parrying and Guarding have always had the problem of "why should I NOT try to attack instead?" Well, just make the guarding and parrying eventually perma-debuff enemy attacks! Also I'm surprised they had the guts to let you perma-debuff bosses at all. Sure, you play fair and parry to debuff their weapon like that, but CLEARLY every game's best option should be the boring glass cannon! Avoiding one/two-shot deaths with higher power is DEFINITELY more skillful than parrying and being REWARDED for it, right guys?...You can tell I dislike certain skill-based indie games.
On the shield topic in Dark Souls, I see your point but it was surely possible to play with a shield in DS1, much less in DS2 and DS3. Not suprised to see MGR in there, you forgot to mention, however, that the "dodge" in MGR also double as an attack and your combo doesn't reset if you use it meaning it can become another way to integrate evasion into your offense. You should try to play God Hand for the PS2. In it, you evade with the right stick. Push it back for a backflip, sideways for a sidestep and up for a quick duck. In that game, different attacks require you to use the correct dodge manouver (like an overhead blow cannot be ducked, but needs to be sidestepped).
Yeah I didn't personally like the MGR dodge but I know other players are effective with it. I've heard a lot about God Hand and I really dig Shinji Mikami's stuff. It's definitely on my list for the future
It is absolutely possible to play with a shield in DS2 as well, in fact it might even be better than DS1. DS3 tried to do everything it can to punish shield users, but shields once again became more viable in Elden Ring, especially with the new guard counter mechanic.
"different attacks requires you to use the correct dodge manouver" That's an indicator that developers kinda lazy to design the bosses. So dodge roll that can avoid any attacks is a tool for developers to simplify their work on designing the bosses.
@@-Shibbi I dislike that a dodge roll can counter *everything* while a block can only counter *some* things. But at least blocking is low-risk for the cases where it does work. Now if you want to talk about how parries counter even *fewer* attacks, and you can't even know which attack they counter without checking a wiki, not THAT is piss poor design.
The only game allowed to keep dodge rolling imo is Monster Hunter because it doesn't even work the same way, and it's been around longer than Souls. Also, every Armored Core from 4 onwards has something like a dodge roll called a quick boost, which thrusts you in a given direction quickly, but it has no I-frames, so it's not used to phase through attacks but rather to reposition yourself or simply to move faster and close in on enemies. It can be used as a dodge, but only to avoid touching an attack, because if an attack touches you during it, you still get hit. In a way it feels like a jump but in directions other than up, or like an air dash in a fighting game.
Love how the MH dodge role is so versatile. It’s meant to be a combination of evading and repositioning to punish monsters, but you can also use for other things. God I love MH.
MH is actually nuanced with its evasion systems. You hardly get any s, you’re expected to be repositioning constantly. Whereas souls you can roll spam and play hyper aggressive with its mediocre combat system, MH you’re far more weighty. You need to plan out and position yourself for attack accordingly.
And Devil May Cry, it also has different dodging mechanics such as Trickster with Dante, Vergil with its Dark Slayer style that allows him to dash very quickly and teleport instantly, and then Nero with table hooper.
I believe Dragons Dogma is a good example on what a 'dodge' maneuver should be. In this game, different classes can avoid or mitigate damage in a variety of ways. Sure, you can roll, but only if you are using daggers (aka one of the rogue vocations). This forces a different approach for the other playstyles, with the mage being capable of hovering above the battlefield; the warrior hyper-armoring and facetanking through everything like the powerhouse he is; or the Mystic Knight countering stuff at the right moment to automatically cast a revenge spell. This way, each vocation feels completely unique, and you don't end up using the ''desperate roll'' as a crutch.
such pain in the ass mechanics to tie dodge roll to particular class/weapon. It's like I have to use sidestep AoW in elden ring to dodge instead it being readily available. It's like ds2 all over again in some sense where you need to level up adp to get better dodge i-frame. BS mechanics
@@moonrabbit2334if you play Dragon’s Dogma, you’d see the dodge roll isn’t that massive to the combat, hell most attacks can be ran away or jumped from.
The big advantage is I-frame dodges is that you can stay within combat range. After doing all the Souls games I finally picked up Ocarina of Time recently and honestly it feels so awkward to dance right on the edge of the enemies' range, especially cause my sword usually is smaller.
That's a good point. The dodge roll is there as one of the ways to mitigate the high amount of damage received when it, but also there to keep you in the flow close to the enemy all the while.
I think Monster Hunter has a great implementation of Dodge Roll, your default Dodge Rolls in MH don't have a lot of i-frames and a good portion of monsters's attacks have too big of an active hitbox that makes it harder to dodge through attacks so you end up relying more on positioning to avoid attacks and using dodges to outspace these attacks, you can i-frame some attacks and roars with precision but you have means to help you dodge, first when you have your weapons unsheathed you can only use regular rolls/hops but if you sheath your weapons and make your character face the opposite direction from the monsters and then run and try to roll you will activate what we call the superman dive, its a maneuver that grants tons of i-frames but you have to preemptively do all previous mentioned steps to make use of it so you can't pull this out of your ass to dodge from the extra dangerous attacks, second you can improve your regular dodge through 2 armor skills, evade window which increases your roll's i-frames or evade distance which increases the distance of your roll, so you can choose to improve how well you dodge through attacks or double down and focus on improving your outspacing. Monster Hunter really nails on how to make a dodge that doesn't make attacks trivial but also gives you options to compensate its shortcomings.
glad to see another hunter in a "dodge roll" video lol btw souls fans aren't a fan of the idea "adding extra stats for better rolling/s (like evasion deco in MH), see what happened to dark souls 2 (even though it's not really the case) 😂
I think the dodge roll was popularized in Dark Souls (and Demon Souls) simply put because Miyazaki/FromSoftware is incompetent in certain aspects. People will chalk it off as “git gud” but truth is, defenses are kinda broken (in the non-overpowered sense) yet the developers still insist on “wasting” resources to them, at some point in New Game Pluses it doesn’t matter how much defenses you got, you shouldn’t get hit, and sure, this could be ignored if, say, souls games are action games like DMC and Ninja Gaiden, but they are RPGs, with shields, armor and the like you can even upgrade, but what does that entail exactly? In DS1, even with giant set at +5, you still take loads of damage by mobs at ng+5, in DS2, you have a stat, vitality, you can use in order to equip stronger armor (which you can upgrade further by using titanites), but the reality is that the way physical defense and stamina regeneration are calculated, it means you are actually penalised by using armors, they do not protect you at all, and just slow down your stamina, ds3, cherry on top, decided to bug out spears and thrusting sword’s main function, now you cannot even shield poke with them! You’re better off with a heavy weapon and perseverance BY FAR, And Bloodborne has a troll shield, hell, I’ve seen lots of people do the cloud save trick to get the platinum, because they are scared at the prospect of doing ng+ there. These are all attempts at making defensive gameplay, that turned out catastrophic, so what can someone do, other than just using rolls and abuse the high amount of i-frames rolling has for “defense”? It’s completely out of character for a knight with a big weapon to roll like a rogue, but those are the limitations the games have. Elden Ring is kinda better, you got stuff like black flame protection, golden vow easily obtainable, compared to the ds3 counterpart, the dragoncrest greatshield actually does something (at least pve), and introduced the guard counter mechanic, so that shields aren’t useless like they were in ds3 with enemies basically having infinite stamina, adding also great spears and hts is another welcoming addition, now you can realistically roleplay as a sturdy knight, or even out of shape wizard who cannot roll and beat the bosses easily, sometimes it’s even encouraged, as some bosses like Malenia give naked people with colossal hammers a hard time (when in DS2 there was literally no reason not to be that). Parry is another kind of beast, because most bosses cannot be parried, and the infamous ones that can, like Gwyn, we know it wasn’t even intentional, as Miyazaki wanted him to be the last hard struggle, yet found out how parry trivialised him in an interview.
I played all of Elden Ring using a heavy shield + Guard Counter build (which is a new mechanic introduced in ER), only bosses I had issues with were obviously Malenia (becuse her stupid healing works by just hitting you even if you take no damage from her attacks) and the final boss (Radagon + Elden Beast combo), besides those three I defeated every boss in the game without dodging at all.
I'll be honest Greatshield(haaligtree knight one) and straight swords build using guard counter, two square off moves made me completely invincible. Unless I am flanked, I never died in the playthrough atleast not to any boss. Also you can use multiple AoW. It's super effective, too effective tbh, people just don't know how to make a build and just use a plain claymore and complain game's too hard and not doing enough damage
Cant say I share your sentiment on the topic, I feel that if you have a tool at your disposal that helps at solving a problem one way and youre confortable with that tool, then by all means use that tool, but dont condemn something just cause youre getting tired of it.
fair enough, and I have no problem with the tool itself! I'm just tired of seeing the exact same tool everywhere lol, at least in places where I feel like it could have been changed a little to spice things up more
@@lorenzotalkdark souls and from soft products should keep the dodge roll as that's an essential part of their gameplay. It's like asking to remove the jump from mario.
I like dodge systems more than parrying because it places more focus on mobility and positioning. Sekiro is great, but often while playing I feel like I barely need to touch the thumbsticks at all, I just stand there, stationary, and alternate between L1 and R1 until whatever is in front of me dies.
that mf Rittzler must be friends with the Polygon journo that said "Devil _May Cry and God of War are so out of fashion, games should follow more the movement of good games like Dark Souls_ lul" . Everytime a worm-brain says Devil May Cry has "fallen out of fashion" i lose braincells
I disagree with this. It doesn't need to and won't die. It'll simply evolve. We've already seen this with Sekiro and Elden Ring. Sekiro went too far and basically made the dodge only useful for a few highly specific moves (like the final slash in Owl's combo or to avoid the firecracker hit) meaning you'd have to know the boss inside out before it's useful. Elden Ring balanced it out. It gave you Ashes of War like Raptor of the Mists, gave us better ways to parry that make it easier without outright pulling a Bloodborne/Sekiro and making it OP, gave us guard counters that made blocking a tool for offense again, and most importantly: Gave us an additional rolling button. The jump. And unlike Sekiro, it isn't only useful as a counter to one specific type of move. You can beat any of these games without getting hit without rolling. It's been done. So the rolling isn't necessary. It is complimentary. That is an important distinction. The problem lies in how useful of a function it is while being the sole function at that level of usefulness. And again, we're already seeing this being balanced out with Elden Ring. Casual players felt too used to their O button to properly use it, but once you've learned how insanely vast the amount of attacks you can brutally counter with the jump are, you'll feel like a God in that game. The shit you can pull against Morgott, Margit, Malenia, Maliketh and Godfrey and many more using the jump is nuts. Pretty much every upper body horizontal attack can be jumped over and punished, creating a whole new dynamic that makes Soulsborne play not as an almost turn based game of dodging until the enemy is done to land an attack of your own, but one in which you and the boss/enemy are both attacking at the same time, with you nullifying their attempts to land your own. It baffles me every time I see people complaining about how long enemy combos are in Elden Ring because it means they cannot counter. They missed the point. Those combos are so long to incentivize you to use the OTHER ways of countering them so that you do not need to wait. The dodge roll isn't flawed anymore. The playerbase is because they refuse to move away from it. You could fairly argue that the game should bottleneck players away from it by nerfing it, but Sekiro did just that in brutal fashion and many people still refused to do it. It isn't a gaming problem. It's a mass mindset problem. I think people simply need time to adapt to the new systems being introduced. They need to stop being afraid to try new things. I will always think of this system at its core as the apex of 3rd person combat. Not just for Soulsbornes either. Darksiders 2 has peak gaming combat and functions similarly, just on a higher level of pacing and with many different abilities. There's other underrated games like Lord of The Rings War In The North that had similar defense systems to Dark Souls, just with longer time between rolls but also longer s which created a different dynamic. It's simply a good system especially for longtime martial artists like myself because it's rooted in the core of combat: Movement is the most versatile tool you have. In grappling, in striking, in fencing, even in airsoft or paintball or live firefights. In everything. Because rapid movement especially in ways that cover multiple feet of distance within an instant simply makes you extremely hard to track and hit while opening up entirely new angles to mount your own offense. It's a system that hits close to home.
That is the dumbest analogy I seen. And I been doing Martial arts for more than 30 years. Rolling shouldnt be overdone because its not really emersive to dodge roll 90 percent of the time.
dodge rolling is not rooted in combat lolol there's a reason none of your enemies use it in these games. it's stupid, looks stupid, and would easily punished by someone who's not slow as shit.
It's strange to criticise dodge rolls for being oversaturated and then praise Arkham Asylum's combat, which was copied by pretty much every action game in the early 2010's. Batman, AC from 2 to Unity, Shadow of Mordor, Ryse, Sleeping Dogs and recently Spider-Man have all used the reactionary counter-attack system and while some of them added their own spin and depth to it, it still got old very fast and often boiled combat down to waiting for a button prompt with no regard for positioning or aggressive playstyle.
It'd be cool if the dodge roll can be used in a game so that it lets you get to hidden areas behind some short holes in the wall, so you roll through that hole and get to that secret area.
And that's why I love Dragon's Dogma. It has shields with perfect block and parry for the Fighter, Assassin, and Mystic Knight vocations (classes). It gives the dodge roll for dagger vocations like Strider, Ranger, Assassin, and Magick Archer. Meanwhile, Mages and Sorcerers get the levitate option to avoid attacks (the least useful of all in the game, but seems to be reworked in the sequel). Warriors are tank vocations but still have a skill that can work as a dodge. Not to mention that most classes have skills that give some hyper-armor or I-frames and can be effectively used as substitute of a dodge. It's much better than simply add a dodge button to everyone.
6:25 dude, you must play Sekiro. Fromsoftware already solved your concern there. Dodge roll is no a thing in Sekiro and you must deflect attack, do mikiri counters and so on, also new Jedi series do pretty good job in this field. I was really disappointed when I saw that you can't do any deflects in Elden Ring because it felt like this system should be there at least in some simplified manner as an option opposed to dodge role. I tried some mode that add this deflect mechanics in Elden Ring and oh boy it feels so good.
Vanilla KH2 not having the dodge roll is such a blessing. Sure FM has many bosses where it come in handy but blocking / reflega usage is so fluent you dont need it.
The fact that vanilla KH2's dodge move (Quick Step) is something you need to go out of your way to unlock, and is totally missable makes it feel like don't really need it and ands it's more of a neat trick than a core part of your tool kit.
In Elden Ring you can more safely parry by cueing a block on top of your parry so if you miss the window you still save yourself. Hold left trigger during the telegraph, then press left bumper during the parry window. Use a shield with a 100% defense rating so you don't take damage from blocks. Against magic users you can try a Mirror Shield + Carian Retaliation combo, but if you miss you'll get bleed through damage. Golden Parry is an upgrade for physical defenses that has longer range and deals higher stagger damage In Spider-Man you can do an improvised counter takedown by perfect dodging under or over an enemy, kicking them away, and webbing them up while they're on the ground. You can also interrupt certain melee attacks by punching them or popping a suit power before they can land the hit. Ground Pounds and Jump Offs are also compatible perfect dodge moves if you do them during the window, but jump offs in the first game are a little laggy, so they're more consistent for defense in Spider-Man: Miles Morales. Some suit powers leave you vulnerable to ranged attacks at the end of their animation, though. The Web Shot Counter skill allows you to instantly take down ranged enemies after a perfect dodge. The Threat Sensors suit mod rewards good timing with multiple seconds of *extremely* powerful slow motion. Dodging in this game does *not* give you i-frames and you *can* dodge into an attack. If you spam it to try and reposition safely you will be punished for having bad timing. It's not like Dark Souls because dodging outside the window carries a high degree of risk for minimal reward. The Quick Recovery skill allows you to get a big jump out of a dodge by pressing cross afterwards, which can be used to reposition while still leaving yourself reactible, but I'd still caution against using the initial dodge during any time that *isn't* within the perfect dodge window because you can get still get hit that way even if you just do it once Check out Execution Producer's videos on Assassin's Creed 2. With perfect parries, four different kinds of counters depending on which weapon you have equipped (or no weapon), two different kinds of dodges that can be used to set up different combos, *and* two different kinds of interrupts, it's the closest I've seen to a game that has every kind of defense all accessible at the same time. You can even perfect parry faster with the Hidden Gun! The amount of creativity on offer here might be perfect for you. The only problem is that enemies don't have access to even half this moveset, so bosses usually become tanky slogs instead of strategic games of trying to slip past each other's defenses
Monster hunter has a dodge roll (which can sometimes turn into a dodge step after some attacks) with very few i-frames. You can increase the i-frames or distance of the roll using skills, but that will likely come at the cost of damage skills
It's kind of wild to see MH get absolutely zero mention when MH's dodge roll has a decent likelihood of being the very thing that inspired the DS dodge-roll. Especially cuz despite being insanely similar to the DS roll it's generally used very differently
The main issue is that the basic dodge you get in Monster Hunter is built around the games generally having much more precise and well telegraphed hitboxes. Even in dark souls, the average attack is MUCH more sloppy, so a limited roll would just be useless. Very limited dodge I frames and distance demands a level of precision to hitboxes and animations that not even Dark Souls achieves well enough to pull off, let alone other, less well made games.
I agree that the dodge roll being the default isn’t great for combat. But I would like to point out the Nioh series and it’s evasion system for people that haven’t played the best souls like ever made. Nioh’s default evasion is a step dodge and it is extremely quick. It doesn’t have a ton of i-frames, but it also has very little recovery, allowing you to stay in the action and continue playing aggressively. If you feel that certain attacks are harder to time with a step dodge, you can double tap the evasion button and enter a dodge roll that provides more i-frames but a longer recovery. Nioh is a game about playing aggressively and constantly dealing damage to enemies and bosses, so the vast majority of the time I just use the step dodge so that I can stay in the bosses face and combo them up. Nioh also let’s you block with no cost to your health, it just takes a large chunk of your stamina which is the most important resource you manage. There’s also a wide variety of parries you can equip in your skill slots but the majority are only useful against human enemies. To sum it up, the combat mechanics and enemy/boss design of Nioh 2 has perfected the souls like genre and that game should be the blueprint from which new soulslikes are built from.
Completely agree. The only problem I have with Nioh 2 is how instantaneously the player dies from one small mistake. I love the challenge, these games should be challenging, but seriously, a basic ass skeleton spearman can oneshot you in .3 seconds if you make one slight misplay.
@@Jack_______oh It is for sure frustrating when you are learning the game’s systems but I also think it forces players to attempt to master these mechanics. You don’t have any room for error which forces you to “git gud” to progress, where lots of souls likes can let you progress through and area or a boss fight even if you never learned how to properly handle them.
I'm not opposed to having a dodge roll to get out of large aoe attacks, but I don't like it if its the default way of avoiding damage. A side step does the same thing and looks way slicker, especially if your wearing full plate armour... I always through dodging in armour looked a bit silly.
Dodge rolling in full plate armor does look silly, but a side-step isn't really feasible with some of the enemies you fight in these games. Like good luck side-stepping Radahn or Astel in Elden Ring. A game would have to be built from the ground up and be basically centered around side steps, which isn't a recipe for a very popular game.
same here, i liked the dodge roll in dark souls1, cuz it really wasnt just glorified i-frame buttons since bosses and tough enemies had lingering hitbox, so yeah it felt really nice to get out of the way instead of ds3 and ER's LITERALLY DODGE ROLLING INTO ENEMIES FKIN BLADE which is basically meta in ds3 and what not. so yeah i always tried to get outta the way in ds3 bosses instinctively but it felt weird and waaay less effective than doing a rolly polly forward and if anything it made ds3 combat worse for me, it never felt organic to to dodge roll into attacks and dodge in ds3 kinda feels out of place and doesnt feel well paced for the ds3 combat personally at all then i realized ds3 is basically reskin of bloodborne in dark spul reskin, so they removed the sick af sidestep/dash of BB but kept the same combat and gave us a dodge roll that feels outta place. i dont mind fast paced combat or dodges at all , l ove sekiro bloodborne and any other fast paced melee and hacknslash, example i absolutely love tge dodge/sidesteps in Sekiro, it looks sick af and i can do it consistently all the time and it is really stylish to dodge sideways at the last moment then counter it with a twirling heavy thrust/shuriken slash step/whirlwind slash or anything really instead of just standing their and boringly parry it. yeah the dodge works perfectly even with my average skill it is just that soulsVeTeRaN are too used to rolling forward with heaven which punishes seriously in sekiro i really want to play a combat that is designed around dodge roll that dont have i-frames or just have sekiro sidestep/dash (not witcher3 that felt weird) maybe it is about time i start playing MonsterHunter tbh also, shields were really good in ds1 and i am guessing DeS as well.
On the topic of parrying in Elden Ring, WHY did they make it so awful??? Most bosses don't even get parried when you parry them, you have to get three successful parries to break their stance. That is insane when it's so much easier and safer to land charged heavies or arts, which are far more effective at breaking stances. Elden Ring's parry window is also tiny, unintuitive, and the risk reward ratio is heavily unfavourable for the player. If you whiff a parry, not only do you take damage, you also get your stamina bar drained by a huge amount. That just means you're unlikely to be able to dodge away to heal. Why would they even include Parrying when they make it unrewarding, unintuitive, and unrewarding vs just pressing a button and effortlessly dodging 99% of attacks in the game????
I feel Lies of P and Sekiro do a decent interpretation of what you'd like. Lies of P Sure, there's a roll if you dodge without lock-on or Link Dodge (hehe, Link rolls when he dodges), but it's a close enough difference with the Sidestep you take. However, Fable Arts have most of the options you mentioned. - (Base Ability) Guard -> Attack = HP Regain - (Base Ability) Perfect Guard = Enemy Weapon weakens/Breaks and takes Stagger Damage Fable Arts --v - Perfect Guard + Payback Swing = Enemy Stagger/Weapon/HP damages - Guard Parry = Handle Fable Art right before receiving attack to return the attack - Killer Attack = Attack WHILE the enemy attacks for massive HP/Stagger damages - Retreating Stab = Stab with the weapon to inmediately dash backwards - Endure = Take reduced damage for a time and gain Hyper Armor - Absolute Defense = Become completely invulnerable (excluding Status Effects) for 1-2 seconds. Even another dodge exists, where you can max out Falcon Eyes to dodge far backwards while shooting an explosive at the enemy and optionally shoot a second bullet. It's great. In addition, upgrading Aegis gives you a gool ol' Shield to use while attacking, but EXPLODES when used, pushing you far back and hurting the enemy and their weapon, which can then transition into a high HP/Stagger damage with a forward dash blast. It's amazing. Sekiro - Dodge = Simple I-Frame Sidestep - Mikiri Counter = Dodge TOWARDS an enemy to step on their weapon during a Thrust Attack for massive Posture damage - Block = Blocks every normal attack, taking chip damage - Deflect = The exact same as a Perfect Guard, but Wolf moves his blade in the attack's direction and looks sick as f*ck. - Jump = Avoids Sweep Attacks, allowing you to jump on an enemy's head to deal Posture Damage and can slash to deal HP/Posture damages as well, or jump away from the enemy. - Running = Evades all attacks, mainly used for Grapple Attacks. You can't do sh*t here, but retaliate while the enemy returns to neutral. Shinobi Prosthetics - Aged Raven Feather = Tank the attack at the right time (Grapples excluded) to fall on an enemy with a heavy plunge attack for HP/Posture. - Fan Umbrella = Shield, but cool. Can redirect attacks when blocking with it for good damage, giving Elden Ring the idea for Guard Counters. I'm probably missing one or two...
Heads up regarding Sekiro mechanics, you do NOT have to dodge towards an enemy to Mikiri Counter them; it can be performed from neutral position (don't try to go sideways though as that will def fuck it up, lol).
Its so weird to hear you almost entirely omit Platinum Games from this argument up until Revengance, the ONE Platinum Games title that favored parries. The exact mechanic you described in FF16 was popularized in Bayonetta, so much so that its earned the term "Platinum Dodge" and "Witch Time" in some circles. They use it in damn near every game they touch, including Transformers Devastation and to a lesser extent Nier Automata. (Warning-I'm about to get nerdy about Kingdom Hearts) Also... Dodge Roll in KH2?.. Well for one, base (2005 release) KH2 didn't have the same dodge that KH1 had. It instead had Quick Run. Its an ability initially unique to a limited use form called Wisdom form, that focuses on quick movements and long range magic spam. In KH2 you unlock certain mobility moves for Sora's base ability set like double jump, Quick Run, and Glide by leveling up the respective forms that feature them. Quick Run most notably is more of a dash that gets longer and the ability to turn as it levels up... and it doesn't really have (useful) I frames like the Souls Roll does. The Dodge Roll you see now was added to the Final Mix (like a directors cut) version, which wasn't released internationally up until the Remasters on PS3. Its also tied to Limit Form, a new addition that makes Sora's clothes and moveset similar to the first game... and this form isn't even unlocked until a little more than halfway through the game. I'm mostly bringing this up because, as a person who's played most of the series at the higher levels, KH and KH2 especially is more of a block centric game. You get block the earliest, and it has a mechanic where if you correctly press block the first time Sora will continue to hold that block without player input for a short time and catch any other attack or projectile that comes immediately after the last attack, and will repeat until there's a break in the combo. Even in the first game which does have a "Dodge Roll", it is not very safe, and the game really hedges on the tech system where by if your attack clashes with another enemies light attack you can counter, (or in the case of heavier attack you both stagger with no damage). The Dodge Roll also doesn't strafe like it does in souls games, because Sora doesn't really strafe either, if you hold left or right you don't perfectly circle the targeted enemy. Dodging largely gets replaced with Glide once its unlocked, because the specific circumstances in which blocking isn't optimal is when you legitimately need distance during extended AOEs, Rush Downs, or VERY protracted combos. But Block also gets replaced with better blocks like Reflect, which counters all incoming damage during an incredibly short but spammable bubble (at the cost of MP) or in some games barrier and round block that blocks from all directions. Most evasive maneuvers in most KH games aren't about timing specific attacks in a single enemy's combo (the dance as people call it) and actually have a lot of lag before you can attack again, whereas most blocks have a immediate opportunity to counter attack or resume your combo. With a focus on Crowds, Aerial Combat, and stun lock loops, KH has a LOT more in common with DMC and other flashy action games. The Dark Souls comparison really starts and ends at "An action RPG where despite having robust RPG mechanics can be played well enough to avoid all damage" which is why BOTH have prolific histories of level one and challenge runs. In the case of KH2 specifically, a gigantic skill ceiling that most people won't engage with between the difficulty options, largely optional super bosses, and said robust RPG system as a safety net.
Have you played Lies of P? It's not perfect but it wears its souls-like inspirations on its sleeve HEAVILY, and does a pretty good and satisfying job, and kind of does its own thing with it! I did not expect it to be one of the hardest souls-like out there, but once it clicked it felt really good to play and kept me wanting to be better at the game's mechanic, and felt excited to try out other weapons/builds for next playthroughs/NG++. I highly recommend playing this game, especially if you want a challenge, and are willing to die a lot to learn the attack patterns(if you are a Fromsoft fan, I'm sure you do). Just don't go in thinking you're going to play a Dark Souls game(combat wise/mechanically) because its beauty is when you accept/learn how the game wants you to play it. With that, great video! Very interesting topic to be considered for future games!
To explain Rittz' comment a little more, KH2's original release didn't have the dodge roll that was in KH2 and the ability to dodge in general wasn't something you got in your regular kit even in the Final Mix release as you had to level up one of two of Sora's drive forms to get one and only one was the traditional dodge that you had in KH1 only now it can be leveled up for added i-frames. The game actually works pretty fine without it too as everything had to be designed without it in mind anyway and I think you'd probably like the other dodge the game gives you more since it's more for creating space. The Offensive Defensive in MGR is actually really good too since while it won't replace parries for you, it is very good for getting out of the way of grabs when you don't have the room navigate around them and it keeps pressure on the enemies as well since the dodge itself is an attack.
@@tenesenkayou can only get dodge roll from upgrading the limit form which isn't in the original game so you can only get quick run which is only for repositioning you get this from wisdom form
Fromsoftware themselves are pushing for the new wave: counters and posture. If you see how dodges work for Sekiro and AC6, then you see Nioh, Lies of P, Lords of the Fallen, Wo Long... Dodges become a complimentary tool, and is more demanding of you, instead of bein a free ticket out of damage. I favor this approach over dodge roll, dependent ones, because you are forced to take the enemy head on, instead of dodging in once and avoiding the entire combo.
Monster Hunter inspired Souls games fighting mechanics a lot the game released in 2004, it's really important to dodge as well as repositioning as a big player of both series, many combat mechanics in Souls games like the positionning, dodge rolling, gathering / buying consumables to use in combat come from Monster Hunter and I don't want to see dodge rolling disappear at all in Monster Hunter, Capcom has been adding some parrying / counter mechanics in the latest games, and it's far from being appreciated by all, as it's doesn't require players to reposition, being aware of the enemy's movement, you just wait for an attack, use your parry, and that's it, spam it until the enemy dies I tried GOW, and my god I HATED the fighting system in this game
is it a "dodge roll" though? I mean yes technically, but it functions so differently from what modern dodge rolls are like - I think I've played through OoT at least 5 times and I've never used the roll as an actual evasive move in combat - I always just sidestep or do the backflip. But hey, maybe I've just been playing the game wrong this whole time, wouldn't be the first occasion lol
I dont know, parries that are just "wait for startup frame of enemy and then press the "i win button"" have always felt like the combat got old real fast. Like in the old assassins creed games, I literally almost fell asleep in some fights and still absolutely dominated.
For sure, the balancing with parries and counters is important to get right. I think AC has always struggled with combat, either too easy or enemies that are too spongey
I think the differences with the example of arkham games, is that: 1. Parry is not the "i win button", just negates damage (it mostly finishes the enemy if it;s the last one standing) 2. The game introduces different enemies with different kind of parrys
@@naokaderapider4210 agreed but, as a fan of AC odyssey specifically, you gotta buy good weapons, use special arrows, and combo that with your abilities, specially when it's small guys backing a big guy, kick the small one off a cliff
This was a good video, with a bad argument, and I agree. I love a good dodge roll, but it's ridiculous to see it in games it has no business being. I think the dodge roll is a timeless mechanic, it's just some games include it as a token mechanic. It's not the first mechanic to be cursed by capitalist developers and it most definitely won't be the last. But arbitrarily adding a dodge roll to a game means nothing. Dark Souls became popular because it recognized a demand and then delivered a product that fulfilled that demand. Not because of the dodge roll. I'm sure somebody already said this, but dodge roll in Kingdom Hearts was more a thing in the first game. Kingdom Hearts 2 is the game that sort of phased out the dodge roll. You CAN unlock it, but probably late game unless you're specifically playing to get it, and the game is balanced around the new block mechanic. Most first time players would never even know it's still there unless someone told them. You're more likely to start using the Reflect spell than find the dodge roll, and tell me that's not a unique way of evading attacks. Ocarina of Time has a dodge roll, you just don't use it when engaging with an enemy, you use it to evade enemies as you run past them and smash into pottery... which is very Souls-y. In essence, Souls games are just the Zelda game that everyone wanted after that one super dark fantasy looking GameCube Zelda tech demo. After Windwaker, Twilight Princess, and then the Wii incident, FromSoft just decided to do it themselves. That's why Elden Ring was an open world game. They were capitalizing on the people looking at Breath of the Wild and thinking, man I wish that game played more like Dark Souls. If game developers wanna ape that Dark Souls success, look at all the popular game franchises that are being run into the ground these days. I'm sure if someone who's upset about how lackluster those once-great franchises are doing decided to make the game they wanted to play from those franchises that they'd have their very own brand new mega franchise hit on their hands. Don't look at what's popular now, look at what people are asking for and not getting any.
parries to me have always felt stronger than dodging so i spent the time learning windows, even in fighting games i drift towards fighters with counters, it would be great to see more proper use of that mechanic/ [
@@lorenzotalk absolutely one thing ive always wanted to see utilized is the grappling manuvers that are very common in fighters. the idea of grabbing an enemy to throw them around or grasping onto the giant boss to strime them shadow of colossus style is something i wish there was more of.
So you're basically opposed to the animation of dodge rolling, not the mechanic. You started talking about how dodge roll gives you i-frames and allows you to phase through anything, and I thought you'll make a point about using spacing... But no. Many examples of "other mechanics" you gave are virtually the same as the dodge roll. Metroid, Returnal, Furi are "dodge roll" games, just without the rolling animation.
you make a good point! It'd be great if there were even more diversity but as I mention with the dodging in FF16 - it functions basically identically to a traditional dodge roll, but the minor differences in behavior and animation make it "feel" new and I'd just like to see more variety. And I would say that Metroid's quick 3-point dash is definitely more interesting than it might look at first, compared to Furi and Returnal (in my opinion)
This is a recurring rant topic of mine as well. I am so sick of the lazy hyper-aggressive boss design every action game needs to have now because you have i-frames. The solution is to keep rolling in these games but limit how they function. Did you know that when you jump in Elden Ring it disables the bottom of your hitbox to let you jump over low attacks? Well simply do exactly the same thing - rolls should disable the top of your hitbox, NOT full invulnerability. No more roly-poly to ignore a fucking nuke from orbit... but still useful for positioning and still can evade many attacks. That one change would make other things like blocking and parrying relevant. No one tool to ignore literally everything.
This video is painfully ignorant of the actual history of rolling in videogames. OOT had a roll with s, serving as the first of its kind. Banjo-Kazooie had an attacking roll using an input closely resembling the modern dodge roll, featuring a burst of momentum useful for changing mobility quickly. The term "Dodge Roll" itself was codified by Kingdom Hearts, released in 2002 as an ability name (far before Demon Souls in 2009). The Souls games' rolls actively subverted expectations of what a roll should be at the time, opting for something slower and clunkier rather than a quick burst option to make it less satisfying and reduce the likelihood of players spamming the s.
For the combat of Batman Arkham Asylum, it's basically the same principle as the combat of the early Assassin's Creed games shown well in 2 and Brotherhood for example. I do miss that combat style in games a lot. But I don't see how it is relevant to the discussion at hand. Because it didn't require dodge rolls? There was still a lot of mobility in different ways, but the core of the difference is that if combat is centered around countering attacks, then dodges are also a matter of timing and pressing buttons like for counters. Mechanically, it is the same as dodge rolling and parrying, just in a different combat system. So obviously a souls-like dodge roll wouldn't be necessary in a counter-centric combat style of gameplay. The two combat styles cannot be simply combined just like that. The entire reason for the souls dodge rolls is that it is a way to be able to balance the high damage that even common attacks do on you. Of course, it has to be balanced, and not all games who put in these rolls do that well. And of course a lot of games don't need these rolls yet still add them in. But that is not the fault of the dodge rolls mechanic. It is the fault of bad choices when determining what to add for what types of games and the fault of bad balancing of it. Saying that dodge rolls themselves are the problem is completely missing the point of the issue. Mechanically speaking, a dodge roll is just the same as a well times dodge in batman, assassin's creed, zelda, etc. The entire point is the timing, not the look of it. Edit: I hadn't finished the video. I now see that your point is less removal of dodge rolls, but more so making them more unique by actually integrating them into a game according to the combat style of said game instead of just added the dodge roll as is just because. I still think that you could've presented your view more clearly earlier on, as to be honest it at points felt like you were only having a bias against the new convention and only liked the way it was done in older games. And also that you didn't differentiate well enough between how different more modern games apply the dodge rolls, arbitrarily saying that some were more like old dodges and not souls dodge rolls even though there wasn't any such concrete difference outside of bias and how useful the dodge rolls were. For example, saying that the dodge rolls of Horizon and Hogwarts Legacy were more like uncharted and were thus not as bad was weird. If anything, them being in the games felt more like they were added in just because of trend and that would instead make them worse rather than better. There isn't any problem in having dodge rolls in games that actually incorporate them well into the gameplay. It's more of a problem when it is there without being well incorporated and/or just to be there. Edit-2: About what you said for the combat and parry system of metal gear rising, you seem to miss one important aspect. That is a mixture of beat-'em-all style with counter style of combat. It is a nice way of doing things, but it wouldn't flow as well in all styles of combat gameplay. The core of the issue is still where to apply things and how to apply them. The dodge roll has its place in a slower style of combat. Technically speaking, both versions of parrying are just about pressing 1 button at the right timing and right position. The difference is that for souls combat you have to move into the right position at the right timing and press the button at the right timing as well, while for Metal Gear Rising, based on what you said, you simply keep pressing a button to be parrying mode and then you press the attack button to parry(counter like in batman and assassin's creed) the incoming attack. On one side you have a slow and methodical approach of combat gameplay, where you are encouraged to be more assertive in your choices rather than just reactive. On the other side you have are basically just pressing QTE, blocking or countering incoming attacks without consideration of your surroundings and positioning, and you flow in attacks. This one is all about the spectacle and enjoying taking part in it. In short, both approaches have their own merits, and whichever you prefer is simply depending on bias and on what you want out of a game. Neither is worse than the other. And it is NOT a good example to criticize dodge rolls since both styles have completely different philosophies. Also, by the way, one of the main reasons why the gameplay of fast paced actions games can be like this is because of how damage to the player is handled. Edit-3: also, saying that the dodges in Metal Gear Rising are worthless isn't a good thing. It's just another example of it being there for nothing. It almost sounds like you want the mechanic to be worthless. It honestly feels more like you just want one type of game to be more common, but instead of making a video about that you decided to make a scapegoat out of dodgerolls and say that it is emblematic of bad combat. Elden Ring and souls games shouldn't have moments like at 8:58 for that would run counter to the entire philosophy of the game's combat. Edit-4: I agree that dashes in those games are well done. But why do you view them differently when mechanically they function the same as dodge rolls safe for the appearance of rolling on the ground? Mechanically, dashing through an attack is the same as rolling through it.
I’d like to take it one step further and say the Soulslike genre as a whole needs to take a step back. It feels like every freaking game realized the formula was fun and decided to copy it…for the last ten years. Even Star Wars is doing it. And look…I think the Soulsborne games are some of the greatest games ever made, and I still boot up Bloodborne to this day….but I’m tired of every game having corpse running, limited healing items that only recharge at checkpoints, resting at checkpoints respawning enemies, and slow paced patience battles where single mistakes can end the fight. Not every game needs to do that because every game that does that is Dark Souls but worse. In fact…Dark Souls is Dark Souls but worse. It was revolutionary back in 2010, but since then, they’ve done it so much better so many times between Bloodborne, Dark Souls 3, Sekiro, and Elden Ring. Even Demon’s Souls, which kicked off the genre, doesn’t stack up. And as From Software keeps one-upping themselves, it just makes the copy cats look worse. It’s time to find a new genre to beat into the ground.
The game that inspired almost all of fromsoft's combat mechanics including their version of the dodge roll was definitely the Monster Hunter series and I will die on this hill. First MH game released 2004, Demon's Souls released 2009. It just wasn't as popular in the US until Monster Hunter World just a few years ago. Probably because it really took off in Japan on PSP and is especially fun in 4 player co-op, and no one here cared about any of that since everyone was just playing CoD at the time. In MH there are currently fourteen different weapons types. While you can mostly always roll, many of them have very different defensive options and rolling isn't quite as broken as it is in modern soulslikes. Shielded weapons and tank builds are viable. I don't think I'll ever get tired of MH combat, but I'm very tired of the way everyone just copy-pastes dark souls dodge roll into everything. That said MH is totally focused on combat and boss fights while soulslikes are much more about exploration so I can't fault anyone for not going as hard with the combat as MH does. I'm making a game, it does have a dodge roll. My solution to the problem of it being broken and making combat boring is that it's a fast evasive option with a cooldown, but there are no s so you can't use it as a get out of jail free card to escape every single attack. It's a positioning tool to make footsies more interesting. Don't know if it'll be fun or not lol but I'm trying.
As a person who played games for a long time, dmc series, gow original, Bayonetta, ninja gaiden, even super Mario 64 all had dodge rolls. This entire complaint is a stupid one. Dsouls didn't popularize it, it just make it a core gameplay aspect.
dynamic combat is a good thing, not a bad thing. the reason dodge rolls exist is because they feel good to pull off and they are something that someone can learn how to do. The parry existing alongside that has always been a high risk high reward mechanic. The existence of a dodge roll doesn't take anything away. Why advocate to see it gone? Also, in this video you used a couple examples of games that are incredibly different from souls games. Arpg's and rougelikes often have dashes because the combat is fast and twitchty. Also you failed to mention sekiro's strict non use of dodge rolls and bloodbornes dash.
The problem is likely that the dodge roll in games is THE best method for the evading damage. I think ninja Gaiden might’ve done it the best. In that game, blocking is just as effective as dodging. In Souls likes, blocking is rarely as useful as rolling since, like it was said in the video, dodge rolling is the superior form of damage evasion.
As someone who doesn't go anywhere without a shield in Souls games: hard disagree. The majority of regular enemies and even some bosses will bounce off your shield when blocked, leaving them open for easy counter attacks. And it's way easier to hold block than time a dodge. The only time I ever even use dodges is either A) the enemy hits exceptionally hard/fast and eats my stamina, or B) they have high elemental damage that pierces my shield anyway. And in Elden Ring specifically with Gaurd Countering blocking is absolutely busted.
You don't need a dodge button in every game. Castlevania, Actraiser 2, Zelda 2, etc. all had great combat without dodge buttons. Watch an expert player play any of those games.
So you want Dodge Rolls to be removed and replaced with... dodge rolls but with different animations? personally I get that the roll animation is overused but it is the most realistic way to dodge. The Dodge Dash often has zero build up, you press the button and your character suddenly has the leg strength to fling themselves 10 meters to the side and to break perfectly without losing balance. The mistake many games which copy the dodge roll from Dark Souls make is that they forget to copy the whole roll mechanics. In Dark Souls your roll changes depending on your equipment. It can be fast and far if you use light equipment or it can be slow and clunky if you wear heavy equipment. And even you arguement that the roll shouldnt be able to make you escape certain attacks is weird if you praise the dodge dash which does the same, which you even show at 10:15, where the character dashes into a fireball and is completely fine.
to answer your first question - yes (more or less)! I don't entirely mind the mechanics of a dodge roll, just the overuse of it and the similar rolling animation in other games. A little variety goes a long way for me. I do like the equipment changing the dodge roll in Dark Souls but I wish it was implemented slightly differently, but that's a different topic for a different day. Anyways on your last point this is very much subjective but in Furi's case where you pointed out, I just personally don't mind a sci-fi light speed dash going through attacks nearly as much as a slower, realistic roll. In Furi and Metroid it feels more like a "blink" than an actual movement dash but hey, that's just personal preference, and starts diving more into "immersion vs. fun". These aren't "better" than dodge rolls, I just like more variety
I love the dodge roll, when it fits the game and is done well. In fromsofts games it usually is, but in games outside of it I didn't see a lot of good results. I actually prefer it from combo based games, dodge and placement feels more interesting than learning and repeating series of buttons. But it requires more sense of details to be interesting. I just think it makes the combat feel more intense when you have not only to have the reflex to avoid but also the split second decision of where you go, are you going left or right because you know where the next attack will be ? Are you getting closer to the ennemy because you believe you can punish them before the next attack ? or away because you know a combo is coming ? When done right it's simply the most enjoyable way to handle combat for me. The reason why Sekiro is my least liked fromsoft game is mostly because I think the parry system fails to make the game as interesting, because between that and the removal of customization it felt like I was more learning the one correct way to fight than creating my style by making decisions.
I recommend you check out Clash: Artifacts of Chaos. All different styles/stances only consist of one singular attack string, but there's a few other moves (Jump, Charge and Run) as well as three different directions to dodge in (forward, backwards and sideways) that can all become an attack. And the game encourages attack canceling too. The *moment* your previous attack hits an enemy, your animation gets canceled and you can perform the next move immediately, provided it's not part of the normal attack string. All stances have unique animations too, and you can have two equipped to swap between at any time. So for example you can mix one stance that has some further-reaching dodges with longer recovery times with one that stays closer to the enemy and has a quicker animation. Very much recommend to check it out and spread the word about it.
I feel the opposite way about Sekiro. The game was about teaching you to fight like Sekiro, not about molding him into whatever monstrosity you thought he should be. I understand the frustration but that's what I loved about the game. And honestly, if you think that Sekiro lacked decision making then I'm sorry to say that you just weren't very good at Sekiro.
@@Seoul_Soldier I know I'm in the minority about Sekiro, but I tried many times to let it change my mind and it didn't. It's definitely the game I don't like that I played the most. And yes except a few consummable and a few cheese using limited prosthetic items (that you frustratingly stop trying the boss to slowly farm them if you wish to use them) there's only one or two objectively better way to fight each boss, I don't call that decision making. Most of the special moves just don't work against most bosses so i'd hardly call that making a choice too. There's not much difference between "teaching" You to fight like sekiro and forcing you to fight like sekiro. I prefer action RPGs over rhythm games. Learning the correct serie of pressing parry and which attack you have to dodge is not really decision making, it's like learning a music sheet, you have no option, the best course of action has already been picked you just have to learn it.
@@naproupi I think you’re right that it’s a lot more restrictive than souls games, but I think you are missing how much freedom there is with the prosthetic tools and combat arts. Each has a very specific use that flows pretty well with the other tools and basic combat. It takes a lot of practice actually using the different combat arts to figure out what they’re good for but I’ve found it really rewarding once you do. Like I know a lot of people don’t like praying strikes but I’ve found it useful as a combo extender because it can stagger enemies out of their counter and they can only counter the third hit if you are using the exorcism version. I’ve found that it helps get in a little extra posture damage for the final push to the posture break. But a lot of people okay differently and prefer ichimonji for the high posture damage and restoring one’s own posture. Even with the basic sword combat there are two ways of playing the game; like a souls game where you only focus on the health bar and only attack when there in a large enough opening so that you can slowly whittle them down, or you can be more aggressive and never let their posture meter go down so that you get the instakill even without dealing that much damage. In general the game rewards the latter playstyle more, but there always has to be some emphasis on the health bar between posture recovers slower as health gets lower. So at least in my experience it’s not strictly one playstyle or the other, I end up doing something in the middle. I can kind of understand the thing about the spirit emblems, but it’s relatively easy to stock up on them between bosses. Treat your money how you treat souls, spend often so you don’t have a massive stack on you when you go to fight a boss. It also helps that you can buy them every time you go to a sculptor idol to rest, so if you don’t keep draining your money by dying to a boss repeatedly without once buying spirit emblems, you shouldn’t run out even if you are using them all every attempt. Also, treat your items and spirit emblems like it’s a souls game, don’t waste them the first boss attempt, give yourself a few attempts to learn boss moves. I get that you’ve tried to enjoy it, I just feel like it’s a really fun game if you understand and work with the mechanics. I won’t deny that it’s more limited than something like dark souls, you can’t customize your character nearly as much, but it’s not that much more limited. I can’t come up with a good example at the moment, but it’s not like a game where you must play the game exactly as intended, with certain mechanics being necessary to defeat certain enemies. Yes, you have to block and dodge is less universally useful, but in dark souls you have to dodge and blocking/parrying is less universally useful. The combat arts don’t provide a massive benefit but they are completely free to use and there’s not even a stamina cost or anything, just good timing so you don’t get hit in recovery frames. Some of the early combat arts have chip damage, nightjar slash reversal has an option for closing in with a combo opener and for retreating with a combo finisher, ichimonji has good posture damage and restores your own which gives you more leeway when blocking attacks, shadowrush closes in and deals damage through block while also setting you up for using a prosthetic tool like the firecrackers or the axe or even just regular attacks. I can’t stress enough how useful I’ve found combat arts, and I think they are probably the main place where you find freedom. I thought praying strikes are really cool, and even though other options might be overall better (I’ve heard a lot of people swear by shadowrush or ichimonji), I really like playing with praying strikes. I start off by trying to deal health damage and inflict poison if the enemy is vulnerable to it, then I try to be aggressive with sword combos followed by praying strikes. I use the charge attack to push an enemy away to get some distance especially when there are multiple enemies. It might just not be the type of game you like because it is more restrictive than dark souls, but I’d just like to recommend trying to find the freedom that does exist and see if you enjoy it
That's contradictive. When I read your first three paragraphs, I thought Sekiro will be your favorite FromSoftware game, because those reasons are exactly the reasons I like Sekiro more than other FromSoftware games. And actually Sekiro does involve some strategies and creativities too, if you also incorporate the prosthetic arms and combat arts into your combat. Also, Sekiro fight feels more cinematic because it is not the common "hit and run, slowly deplete boss HP until it's dead" combat in most video games including other FromSoftware games.
"if every games had invincibility frames, dodge rolls, and lacked different means of evasion and defense and counters and dashes, we wouldn't have moments like these anymore" and then process to show fast paced spectacle focused action gameplay sequences. Dude, I'm sorry, I do get what you mean, but you are biased and are missing the point. Dashes and dodge rolls are functionally the exact same. Just that one is faster than the other. souls style gameplay also has a lot of other means of evasion too. For example, some attacks can be countered by just attack at the right timing to interrupt while dealing more damage due to it being a counter blow. Parrying is a thing. It is actually easier than you might think. It's just that you need to put the time to practice it at first and have the patience for it. And once you get the hang of the timing in general, it becomes good for almost any enemy. The learning curve for parrying starts steep, and then becomes a relaxed slope that is almost an horizontal line. Blocking can often blocking 100% of the incoming damage. Guard Counters are also VERY good. Back stepping and dashing can be also be good. Just figuring out the range of attacks and their patterns can go a very long way to not get hit too much. The different though is that pacing yourself and having good positioning and timing are key. And this is very different from fast paced combat of the games that you clearly prefer and have a bias for. It feels more like you have a problem with certain game flows and pacing, but that you tunnel visions on something that you are tired of seeing pointlessly in many games (dodge rolls). If you had focused your arguments on why it shouldn't be added in any game just because and that when it is added it should be incorporated smartly either as dashes, flips, or with other special things that are in line with the philosophy of the game it is added in, and that it needs to be balanced, then I would've agreed with you. But instead you went on rants and confounded issues, showed you bias, showed that you just want a different game style, etc.
For Batman: Arkham Asylum, it's simple why not many have done that: it require work. Lot of works. You need to make fluid animations so that your character can react to enemies 360° around you; you need to have different animation depending on which attacks, from which angle and which enemies launch them; ... It has the difficulty of a QTE (nice visually) with the freedom of free roaming combat.
Yeah The batman games do a pretty good job of illustrating how taxing producing a combat system that actually works at fighting groups of enemies, that so many games struggle at. The solution is there, it just takes a ton of resources to implement, in a game that has basically one moveset for the character to use.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 Looks good, but gameplay... Zero though, zero skill required. It's like a mobile auto-combat thing. I like soulslike and fighting games because they require understand the enemies and put actual thought on the mechanics and your actions. Arkham combat style is far from being the solution, in fact it is the an example of why I dislike most AAA games: good graphics, fancy animations but no challenge.
@@SoulGuitarMetal Yeah, I generally agree. It gets an aspect of combat right that most other games struggle immensely with, but, the way it does it comes with tons of tradeoffs and game design around it.
I'm a souls fan, but I was pretty disappointed when Elden Ring released and it was just slightly better Dark Souls 3 combat. Especially since the previous game Fromsoft made was Sekiro, which had fantastic and varied combat. Hopefully Fromsoft's next souls game will have much improved combat that can (at least) rival Sekiro's.
I'm fine with dodging in the right games, but overall, I think Dark Souls has unintentionally harmed the industry for the last decade. So many devs chasing mechanics from Souls without thinking about the nuances. This isn't really Fromsoft's fault, the blame is squarely on the hack frauds making games now a days. It's gotten to the point where I'm trying out poorly reviewed games that came out pre-2012 and actually enjoying them compared to new stuff since they have their own unique takes on gameplay mechanics.
funnily enough i think that kingdom hearts has the right idea for dodge rolls. dodge rolls are purely defensive while blocking lets you use powerful counters, but there are some unblockable attacks and the punishment for mistiming a block is greater than the punishment for mistiming a dodge. alternatively you can take the pso2ngs approach and just make the dodge act like a parry, sometimes in addition to an actual parry.
I think theres significant more depth to a dodge mechanic than a parry. A parry only tests your timing while a dodge forces you to think about your positioning. Theres a lot more potencial for strategic play than with a parry. For example if a knight is swinging his sword coming from your left, its better to dodge to the left, that being the direction the attack came from, so that you stay the least amount of time inside his hitboxes. Bosses can also be made with this in mind, forcing you to dodge a certain direction or employing diferent moves depending on positioning. As an example, a lot of bosses in er will actively punish you and employ harder moves to dodge if you play defensibly and try to dodge away from the boss instead of towards. Rolling just guves so much more potencial to your evasion options that i dont see a reason to get rid of it.
KH 1, KH 2 final mix+, Devil May cry, Ninja gaiden...All of then had Dodge roll before. KH 2 without dodge roll was painful wouldn't have worked with all the bosses added on Final Mix+ Nioh 1 and 2 don't use Dodge roll, more like Dodge step or just Dash at full speed around. Sekiro Doesn't have a dodge roll per say. Wake up roll when you get slammed.
Finally someone with a brain. Shields in souls games shut down a lot of enemies, parrying is meant to be a high risk high reward option not a different flavor of dodging, you can also strafe and space every attack. You can beat all these games without dodging and in a cool way if you really wanted to. People that complain about "not enough options" are usually the ones with the most vanilla play style that go out of their way to not try anything.
If you want a game that captures this sentiment you are describing perfectly, while still having the souls-style dodge, you want to look to Nioh. In those games, you have so many defensive options, it's incredible. You have a quickstep, a full on dodge roll, as well as three stances which can vary the timings of these dodges. You have multiple kinds of parries, you have both blocking and perfect blocking, which offer subtly different advantages. And in Nioh 2 you get a burst counter, which is a special kind of move that helps with unique red attacks, but also has added utility as a move to reposition, or an emergency block if you run out of Ki (stamina). I think outside of Sekiro, Nioh has the best action combat of ANY game, hands down. It has the crunchiness of souls, but also the style and variety of something like DMC. Hands down one of my favorite combat systems ever, and something you should look into if you want to see defensive mechanics at their finest.
Dodge rolls are a two fold action It's a period of invincibility and a reposition. A similar, swifter action would be a dash. The only game that comes to my mind it is a mod for doom called demonsteele. Your example (returnal) is similar. I don't like parrying at all, hell i absolutely hate the arkham style of combat. But i like shield/stamina management. It's like a trifecta of damage mitigation. Evasion - asassin/rouge style Shielding - tanking style Parrying - offense style
the difference is that in kh2 and 3 rolling is not a good option (atleast in critical and in the super bosses). You can't spam it or you'll die, that's the difference between kh and souls.
100% agree on this. Not every game needs a Dark Souls roll, but as time goes on, I see nothing but it in action/adventure games. Another great example of a dodge without I-frames, is the one in Castlevania: Symphony of the night and Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night. It's a very simple back-dash/back-step that thrusts the player backwards 3-4 feet while retaining the direction they were looking, thus giving you an opportunity to counterattack. Unlike the Dark Souls roll we always see now, it manages to add to the combat, without -becoming- the combat.
Those are side scrollers. They are by default better because it's not 3d. 3d is better with dodge rolls just how 2d platformers are better than 3d because of not slowing the pace because of repositioning.
I don't really get why you feel like the backflip in Zelda is fine and the dodge roll isn't. It's basically just a dodge roll in the air. A combination of the back step (also in souls games to dodge) with the dodge roll. I sense a bias there, that might not actually be about which you think is better. edit: what? How is the dodge in Horizon not literally a dodge roll? Because there are other options? (no idea, I haven't played it, but from the videos I've seen I don't see much of a difference, and I don't know what the options are) Just because there are other options doesn't mean it's not the same dodge roll principle. Sekiro has a dodge roll, but it is not the best option by far. Dark Souls 1 also could easily be done without much dodge rolling (blocking was very good in it). Parrying is also a much better option in souls games, just that it has a bigger learning curve. But even for dodge rolling, you still need to learn the enemies' patterns. Otherwise, you will still take damage. There are games that just copy the dodge roll and make it give way too much invulnerability, but souls games usually have a good balance for it and it's not actually always the best options and not everything is easily dodged with a dodge roll.
I think you're addressing a symptom of a larger issue. It's not that any given dodge mechanic is problematic, it's the existence of i-frames at all that's the problem. If the attack hits you on screen while you're dodging, you should take damage, no exceptions. Would teach players to use other tactics in their arsenal to deal with oncoming attacks.
No, it shouldn't Stop imposing your own personal feelings on the ENTIRE gaming industry jfc Why is everyone so fucking self important nowadays demanding that games should bend to their view
While I do love dodge rolls and don't agree with his view, he's just stating his personal opinion bro. He ain't forcing anyone to change or insulting anyone.
Bro took 12 minutes to say absolutely nothing. The usefulness of dodge rolls peaked in 2016 in Dark Souls 3, and Fromsofware immediately strayed from that idea in their games since then. Sekiro literally kills you for pressing circle and saying that parrying and other defensive mechanics in something like Elden Ring aren't as effective is just a straight up skill issue, which I hate saying. The person that can consistently parry in Elden Ring, or any other souls like games for that matter, will clear an area or boss way faster than the person who chooses to dodge everything. Also this video spends it's entire duration with zero Monster Hunter footage at any time, because the existence of Monster Hunter's dodge roll completely overturns the entire argument. Monster Hunter has a "dodge roll," deliberate and committal combat animations, and a strong focus on complex and challenging boss fights, but is in no way a "souls like" because the dodging mechanic serves an entirely different purpose. Evasion in that game has little to do with invulnerability and everything to do with positioning, which is the dodge rolls primary function. Aside from being a staple in the genre that it helped define, the dodge roll is far from infectious in the industry, even among action adventure RPGs. A game including a dodge roll doesn't automatically make the game or the mechanic homogeneous to any other game that includes it just because of said mechanic. In order think so you have to blatantly ignore every other defense mechanic found in any given game
I don't agree with every point you made, but I would like to see more games with a system like Godhand or Sifu. That rewards you for timed dodging instead of just mashing i-frames. The problem is those games aren't as accessible. If Godhand was released today it would not sell well. When a game has a specific design conceit in mind (think Sekiro) people interpret that as limiting their options when the game is just trying to teach you how to properly play it. The only solution I can see is to make blocking (in souls games at least) as useful as dodging if you spec for it. What's the point to blocking an attack just to take stamina drain, get your health chipped away, *and* possible suffer status effect buildup when for a bit more stamina you can reposition entirely and avoid any damage? These games got hard option select'd and everything is trending toward dodging. Bloodborne, Godhand, and Sifu are the only games I've played (and actually enjoyed) where dodging is skill-based and not a get out of jail free card. And no game does deflects/parries like Sekiro.
That's what makes Dark Souls such a wonderful game. Dodging isn't inherently the easier/better option in any given situation. Dark Souls is a chaotically designed game, and that's what helps give it so much charm. Some bosses are much easier if you use a great shield and just block everything. Lord Gywn is way harder to fight with dodge only because he's so aggressive vs just parrying him. Shields and blocking are often seen as a safer option as well, without needing to time anything, going into a fight you don't know is way easier with a shield up as you block to learn the attacks. And Elden Ring did go that route. Build your spec for Greatshields and you can just hold block for most the of bosses in the game. Melania complicates things a bit, but that fight is trash as is. Even the dodge rollers need to just sit outside of her range and bait her A.I. into performing her easy attacks. I much prefer dodging in Souls games anyway. They ask the player to be more active and engaged with the fight. Didn't play Bloodborne, Godhand, or Sifu (never even heard of the latter two). But Sekiro was just a simon says rythem game, was really boring.
When you dodge roll in real life you aren't given invinciblity frames. I think the scurrying dodge in Tomb Raider (2013) is perfect for evasion. A second button then follows up with a roll.
I know this might be some hot takes, but dark souls isn't truly "roll based". The only one where I think rolling is needed is dark souls 3, and elden ring/bloodborne also maybe requires them, but I haven't played them. In dark souls 1 and 2 it is entirely possible and sometimes easier to just block or tank through attacks with poise. The 4 kings from DS1 come to mind, but it's still possible on the "fast" bosses like artorias from the dlc. It's probably possible to do this in ER/ds3, it's just harder. Even in my ds3 soul level 1 run, blocking had it's uses against multiple enemies or un-reactable boss attacks. (oceiros, mainly) Also to add on for kingdom hearts being the basis/originator for this roll epidemic, it's weird cause it has had a weird history with the mechanic. In kh1, it's possible to clash, basically your swing hits the enemy swing and depending on your weapon you would recover from the stagger faster, and if you had the riposte move equipped (I believe it was called counter slash) you could follow up with that move. This same hidden value also determined how good guarding was, so ultimately dodge rolls were generally more valuable cause the better weapons typically have weaker "guard" stats. Also in the level one run you have to dodge, as you unlock guarding by level up, so the dodge was definitely the more intended defensive move with the clash/guard being more niche and difficult to pull off but more rewarding under right conditions. In the original kh2, the dodge roll ability doesn't exist, however a dash that moved really far but had few s also existed. They made the guard much better, and also added a spell that was basically a super guard that auto countered for you. They added the more traditional dodge roll into the "final mix" version which was JP exclusive until the ps3 releases on ward, and you can have the dash and the dodge roll at the same time, and they're on the same button. If you held it you got the dash, and if you tapped you got the roll, it was honestly really cool and intuitive. From then on they more so stuck with the kh1 approach, with guarding being niche but helpful against certain moves, and the dodge being the more general use defense move, and a few twists for guarding every now and then. Kh3 then went back to 50/50 split, but with the dlc guarding was generally better cause if timed right would apply an insane multiplier to your riposte damage. Anyway, a game that I think did dodging in a cool way is dead cells. It's a sorta vanilla roll, but because of how the bosses/enemies movesets work, dodging is kind of a dedicated anti projectile measure. Parrying is really helpful for bosses, and against general mobs you should be killing them pretty fast to the point of them usually not getting to do much, with the roll being a dedicated Iframe repositioning option in those scenarios. Basically you're only rolling if you fucked up or you're fighting a boss with no shield. Usually jumping is far better to actually dodge general enemy moves, as most of them are relatively land locked. also also, another cool game when it comes to dodging kinda is lies of P. It's a very fromsoft-y game, mostly taking cues mechanically from sekiro with a hint of bloodborne.(allegedly, idk haven't played) But in LoP, you have a very sekiro-esque parry that will add stun/stance damage to every enemy. Dodging also is an option, but as it gains you no momentum against bosses, and is less stamina efficient, it's typically not your main option with bosses. It has some relative distance on it though, and some Iframes, making it nice for jumping back and healing against enemies. Also it lets some of the slower weapons get an extra opening, giving it some pretty niche value in bosses sometimes. edit: Lies of P also has an hp regain system with guarding. If you guard, you take reduced damage, but you can earn it back if you attack quick enough, and later on parrying will also regain this "rally" hp. This gives you a relatively huge window for error with parries, while if you solely dodge and mess up you take the raw, unmodified damage and have to heal it back.
For reference, ER weakened rolling by reducing the distance you roll, making it easier to still get hit by an attack if you are careless about the direction you rolled in. Jumping is also super useful as an alternative for AoE and sweeping attacks, but again heavily direction-dependent, and simple running gets you around faster than rolling repeatedly if you need to reposition quickly to avoid an AoE attack you can't jump over. Rolling can still solve all your problems if you time and position it perfectly, but it's far safer to use the other options, and you get to counter-attack a lot more quickly to boot.
Something I feel you missed in the video was witch time from Bayonetta. Bullet time appeared in games well before Bayo 1, but that game is definitely the most influential when it comes to BT attached to dodges. GoW and BotW definitely take inspiration from this, and you can find a handful of other games that reward near misses with opportunities to attack. Discussions concerning dodging feel incomplete without mentioning Bayonetta.
What you should really be griping about is enemies that can’t hurt each other, and can even phase through each other. Ruining positioning and favoring numbers. There’s also hitbox stupidity that everyone does. Most game have an all or nothing system. Like if a sword hits you even well past the apex of swing, full damage. Or worse yet, the handle of a weapon. Like and axe or spear, it’s dumb. We got bigger issues.
I think regardless of the specific defensive mechanic a game relies on, it can get stale when it's implemented poorly. Souls games have always had very forgiving i-frame mechanics with their rolls while also doubling as a quick reposition that could counteract the relatively slow movement. However, as the games progressed they started relying on execution of more frequent rolls because people skilled at the game realized how safe they actually were. Eventually this led to rolls being so frequent without any other similar risk to reward defensive options available to use. Leading to the middle of the road risk/Reward gameplay loop of Avoid damage > counterattack being very roll centric. Having something like a Deflect that's situationally more or less safe than a roll, but has the same overall Risk/Reward ratio would help alleviate this. While something like parrying and blocking can also help it's important to note that these have different levels of Risk/reward. Meaning they won't be used in the same situations or as frequently due to being too risky or not optimal reward wise. In the case of blocking it's more so a low risk resource exchange limited by your stamina more than rolling is. Meant to make learning patterns less trial and error or to avoid taking risks in situations where the player isn't completely confident in going for something like a parry or roll. Parrying is usually on the opposite side of the spectrum meaning it won't be used as often in any game with enemies that actually have meaningful variation in their attack patterns. Deflection (usually triggered during a short window in a game's block mechanic) is in a similar middle ground to rolling. It tends to cost about the same resource as rolling would on average (Usually varying based on the attack), and some games will add some kind of weaker counter option or damage inflicted on Deflection success. Making it give a similar level of reward to a Roll. Some games will have moves that can't be blocked or deal a substantial about of stamina/health damage when blocked (Even if most weaker attacks basically do nothing when deflected). Leading to it being situationally more or less efficient than Rolling would be due to having a similar timing window and resource cost. The main difference being the options the player has afterwards and which attacks are more optimal to use Deflection or Rolling against. If implemented properly Rolling can be really good, but if it's the only middle of the road Risk/Reward defensive option, the game its in will become centered around it. Leading to it becoming overdone and stale. Like it has in many Souls-likes and the more recent souls games where you need to avoid 2 to 5 times before attacking a couple of times over and over. Dark souls 3 was especially bad due to the low cost of rolls and amount of enemy combos. Elden Ring is worse in that regard, but their implementation of guard counters, jumping, and consumables mitigated it to be about the same overall. Even if they missed the mark on making those other defensive options equally as versatile as rolling. There are other ways to add more middle of the road risk/reward defensive options like rooted 50/50 Avoids, hyper armor, and repositioning tools. However, something like deflection would probably be the easiest to implement because the overall cost/risk/reward ratio can be the same without much effort. There's a game called Sifu that combined the idea of rooted 50/50 Avoids with slightly tighter to time deflection mechanics to make the defensive gameplay more engaging. Some attacks can be punished better by avoiding and others by deflecting. So the defensive gameplay isn't overly reliant on just one of them. It's not implemented the best it could be, but it's significantly better than just having only one of them. Add a low risk but high resource drain option like blocking and a high risk/reward option like parrying to this system and it'd be hard to get bored of. So long as the enemies aren't too predictable or too unpredictable.
WIth this mechanic, I'm honestly a bit lost on what I would want out of it myself (removal, evolution, or adaption) I only played Dark Souls myself for all of 2 - 3 hours and dismissed the game as I was just not really enjoying it (trust me, just call it a skill issue) The dodge roll was one of the main reasons I didn't enjoy it because of how it looked primarily -- only made the game look and feel slow and clunky. Most recent game I've played with a dodge roll mechanic -- Super Smash Bros. Ultimate -- lmao. For a fighting/party game, it's pretty harsh with it. Dodging while moving have less i-frames and more cooldown than dodging in place. Repeated dodges are performed slower and slower so lesser i-frames and more cooldown to a point where it becomes completely useless. However, it is a game meant for going up against people competitively so they had to force other options. Of course, it doesn't permanently continue nerfing the dodge roll -- so long as you wait an ample time to "recharge" (without a visible timer) it back to normal. So more likely you are spending time using your other movement options to 'get the fuck out the way" or opting for shielding/parrying/tanking attacks. -- Terms of thoughts throughout this video: I never played Kingdom Hearts (or rather 1 - 2 hours of KH1, had lost my PS4 somewhere along the way so go me), but don't know how Kingdom Hearts 2 "does it right" either. I've only seen speedruns and a decent amount of let's plays but I guess in the varied options is my best guess. You have more defensive options available to you then just to roll which are blocking, parrying, and countering -- along with a bunch of other moves that provide you with i-frames in the midst of the attack to utilize those as well. I want to presume that being the reason but idk. Ocarina of Time, I just like its mention -- as it wasn't a matter of abusing i-frames -- just "get the fuck out the way of the attack".. or shielding if possible. Uncharted 2 (and 3 just to say because I played that one more), it was mostly good for dodging bullets if anything. It's an absolute pain in multiplayer fire fights after all. It gave no i-frames, but it did feel like it dropped the accuracy of NPC shots by just enough so that you can retreat to the next cover. Newbies probably had trouble aiming at you when first starting the multiplayer. idk how I exactly feel about the point with God of War at 4:55. Mainly because I don't know how other difficulties aside from hard tackled it but it was no catch-all for me with dodge rolling; In fact, I outright got punished hard despite evading an attack. That one, much like me summising KH2, I did like GoW4 because there was the quick strafe (which also had its own attack chain depending on direction), the dodge roll, or like mentioned -- the shield counter. Though you could also just, "fuck out the way" since some attacks weren't just door-to-door hitboxes one after the other. I do get that it is very spammable in controlled situations (controlled as in not dealing with multiple enemies or bosses with attacks/mechanics designed specifically to counter dodge rolls, like Valkyries), however. I actually DID go on autopilot for Batman: Arkham Asylum -- and I do the same for Spider-Man. I can't say I enjoy the combat for the mechanics but more so enjoy it for its spectacle. To me they both do fundamentally the same thing but as you best put it, really makes you "feel like you're Batman/Spider-Man" with how it looks. Then again, I didn't play on Hard Mode where you DIDN'T have a button prompt in your face of PRESS (Y)/(TRIANGLE) to not die while you're mashing square, so that possibly made all the difference in feeling. With 5:58, I think the problem with parries for me.. not only were it strict, not only did it require a shield -- but some attacks just outright COULDN'T be parried anyways. It's really unfortunate when it exists but it's a self-imposed challenge to NOT have it. 6:21 -- Dark Souls didn't appeal to me but Sekiro definitely did. Dodging wasn't too strong tho blocking/parrying was taking center stage more; Though you were still forced to dodge some attacks as they were unblockable... or was it that the timing was tighter for some moves? Unfortunately I don't remember. As for your Different Approaches, I got one: I played mostly Monster Hunter Rise. The game's dodge roll seems pretty played straight until the amount of i-frames is practically LAUGHABLE compared to Souls games. It's more like your previous examples where the rolls are more like repositioning yourself so that the next attack doesn't smack you hard rather than a get out of jail card. However... I am a casual bitch in this game and it has skills -- Evade Extender and Evade Window which can effectively make the game more.. Soulslike with its dodges to put it. Though, the game -- depending on the weapon -- has different approaches to how much you use it. Some have you shielding, parrying, countering, tanking, or just "fuck it" and escape. Technically some weapons you rarely use it at all because it is more of a distance based weapon as opposed to up close and personal. Metal Gear Rising is up there with Batman: Arkham and Spider-Man. The block/parry system was just SO busted that it really did just make you busted. Option Select'd (when one action in-game covers multiple scenarios) by just constantly flicking the control stick while I attacked in some cases so either I slashed the shit out of them or I blocked their faster attack. Hindsight, maybe not the best of mechanics to me BUT... the spectacle of the games much like the other two pretty much invalidated me really thinking about all that dumb shit and going annihilation mode just like my Dynasty Warriors games. Rest of the vid onward I got nothing extra to say but I will add that I 1000% agree with "why do they end up LOOKING the same?" Reminds me of different issue with how most triple-A games have been doing the "our pause/status screen went for a Controller is Mouse interface" and everything looking DAMN near the same. Oh but the mouse is SLOW as shit so what should be imo, 1 minute of navigation maybe less can turn into 3 - 4 minutes as the "mouse" as to needlessly drag its ass from point A to point B over and over. Which I get the reason behind it as another thing standardized in the industry but holyyyyy shit man, that topic I bet has warranted videos somewhere if I bothered to look. --
Hey thanks for checking the video out! As a lifelong Smash fan that’s probably been my first exposure to it, but I think its use there actually dates back to earlier 2D Kirby games, which makes sense given Smash’s director created Kirby. I really like its usage in Smash! Useful for evading attacks but like you said, it can’t be relied on entirely. It’s treated as a tool and not as a crutch, ESPECIALLY in competitive play. I’ve played MH Rise, that would have been great to mention too! The mobility of the wirebug is so addicting for 3D combat, I hope they keep it for future entries in the series. And yeah I do like some spectacle in 3D action games but mainly I just like variety. Also on your last point I couldn’t agree more and I know exactly what you’re talking about. In fact, I might just make that as a video in the near future. I think I remember seeing that “slow cursor” style movement first in Destiny (at least among mainstream current releases) and it’s in everything now. God of War, Free to Play battle royales, Gotham Knights - I’m definitely gonna make a video in the future examining it and the use of it in recent games (and mainly WHY I think it’s becoming more popular now, although honestly I couldn’t really say for sure, I’ll mainly just be speculating and spitballing)
In defense for God of War the dodge roll is 2 things, a sidestep that doesn’t take too long to recover from your animation but i-frames aren’t long either and the range of your dodge is a lot small, and the Roll by tapping dodge twice makes you dodge roll which takes a lot to recover from but with long travel and i-frames.
I think dodge rolls and defensive mechanics are really more than dodge rolls (you have ninja gaiden and dmc which are more focused on positioning ) and there are many other old action games that mix dodging and parrying and positioning , however however I think people have been mislead to think that dodge rolls are the most important thing souls combat even in elden ring , actually there is a stronger thing than it : tracking manipulation and positioning , the tracking in these games is very clean even with bosses that are crazy in their combos , you can strafe and do directional rolls where you can just skip most of the attacks without spam rolling this vid is a great example of the potential and how dodge rolls are really misleading in their use in the community , you could skip until tip 4 . ruclips.net/video/fo4dXJmd1cQ/видео.html
One of the issues with blocking in soulsborne games is that aside from some footsoldiers, enemies in the game have monstrous strength- If you block normally, you get half your health taken away, or staggered if your not wearing armor with high poise. Whenever I see high level runs of the game, people just get rid of their armor cause it doesn't mean anything. You either go full Havel "the rock" johnson and tank everything with a great weapon, or wear nothing and dodge roll/parry everything. there's no in between.
I see those other things as kind of like other versions of the dodge roll. I do think the evolution in action games will be to have other types of mobility options in addition to rolling. In ways I like Ocarina of Time's mobility options even more than Dark Souls, since you had the side step, back flip, and the roll (even though it didn't give invuln frames, it still had some utility like rolling underneath Ganon to reach his weakpoint). Sekiro puts more emphasis on parrying, which helps it stand out. Elden Ring also lets you jump with the press of a button. So simple yet was very handy for combat as well as traversing the environment, the thing the souls games always needed and kinda makes it the best by default due to that alone IMO.
Just going to leave this one here and move on. Dodge rolling has existed in games long before the likes of demon souls, or even kingdom hearts. While i can't say exactly where the Invincibility frames dodging first appeared, I know it was at-least 1998. As it was in the PS1 game Tenchu Stealth Assassin (a game i just recently replayed). If we're excluding i frames, then we can include things like Zelda OOT (also released 1998) Or even Super Mario 64 released in 96. While this is not the end all be all time line of when it first showed up, i can at-least confirm it's existed for far longer, and the souls games really wasn't what popularized it. While I can appreciate your side not liking a system that is honestly over used much like bullet time slow down when the matrix movies were getting traction. You can still choose to not used the systems you don't like. Sure some games make it more difficult than others to avoid using something like dodge rolling, but you all importantly can still choose to not dodge roll. Heck best example are games like dark souls with the equip loads basically making dodge rolling for I frames completely useless. Thank you for coming to my Nerd Talk, and have a fantastic day. Edit: Ender
Rolling and parrying ultimately serve the same purpose and that’s to help the player avoid taking damage. I like rolling because it’s not only about the I-frames, it’s also a tool for repositioning. I would like to see parries being used more as the main way to avoid damage, but I don’t think dodging has to die at all.
Conversely, in some games one may be able to use repositioning moves and tools for evasion.
Soulstice for example has as one of the seven total weapons a pair of punch daggers, called the Merciful Blades. One of the moves is an uppercut that launches the player characters into the sky, and holding the attack button has her performing RAPID punches that heavily slow down her descent.
Another weapon by name of the Fiery Zealots, a pair of cannon tonfas, leans into the repositioning even more. Whenever the Fiery Zealots blast, they push back the player character due to recoil, especially so with the three-hit-combo in the sky. Just three blasts that push her away farther from the opponent.
There's also two kinds of far-reaching attacks for her with the Fiery Zealots. One of them is a double blast behind her that sends her into a direction, with the tonfas spinning for rapid double hits from the recoil, but has a kinda long recovery time.
The other one is a leap that ends with her slamming down the tonfas into the ground, which i believe may double as a launcher, and has a much faster recovery time.
Just play Sekiro, it’s that easy.
Parrying can lead to a riposte so it doesn't serve the same purpose exactly as as dodging.
@@nsk1911 sekiro has the opposite issue where dodging is almost worthless(unless you use feather tool). this is why bloodborne to this day still plays the best out of all of them: because the quickstep is a useful evasion tool, AND shooting to parry is not only far more functional than dark souls parrying, but is an engaging way to avoid damage.
the best souls game that's yet to be made is the one that has a good dodge, a good block, AND a good parry, since those three tools do different things.
he said rolling needs to go, NOT DODGING. Look at Devil May Cry , the way to dodge in that game is beautiful
With evasion in games, it's basically always this: Unless you want to fully commit to hard footsies, you're going to want some quick movement, and it's always going to look like some flavor of quick movement in direction. There's definitely ways to change it up more, especially the invincibility can be questioned if it truly fits the combat style.
That said, the resolution at which you want to call certain dodge tech different or the same is very arbitrary, and it certainly shouldn't be said that the dodge roll needs to die. It seems to me rather the opposite "the dodge has a lot of design space to explore and we should go into it"
That means EXPANDING on the dodge roll rather than killing it.
its not the "dodge roll" needs to die, its that the dodge "roll" needs to die.
@@EsWhySeePe That's a fair point. I guess I just find it hard to distinguish whether the criticism is levied at the dodge roll as an animation choice or as a gameplay mechanic with invincibility and everything, as these points are conflated in the video sometimes, so I wanted to defend dodges mechanically.
But yeah, there's a lot of things animation can do to make a games dodge mechanic feel visually distinct. Slides, dashes, flip jumps, you name it.
I do think the classic roll animation does have some properties that make me get why they are inherently gravitated towards in some use cases. I can make a list if you want.
Why does a game need a dodge button at all? You should watch an experienced player play an NES game like Castlevania or a SNES game like Actraiser 2. If any of you that grew up on modern games played them you would think the characters are too slow and need a dodge roll. They don't, and the games are better for it.
@@davidaitken8503 As I said, it's fully possible to commit to footsies, and there's a lot of complexity to be found in there as well. That said, those Nes games also used to have a jump most of the time as a limited vertical escape option, so it's not like every NES game was pure spacing hell. It is very notable that jumps in 3D games aren't worth crap, so an alternative is very much needed to preserve the "spirit" of some of the jumps functionality. I'd argue that a good dash in 3d games might be closer to the classic experience of a NES game with a good jump than a 3D game with a good jump is.
@@davidaitken8503What a surprise-completely different games, from different eras, built with different tools, and possessing different design philosophies, also happen to have different mechanics. What a world.
I think the big issue for me is that so often your dodge roll or evasive maneuver is just straight up a better option then your block or parry. For example, in Breath of the Wild, even if you don't get the flurry rush with your backflip, you might still avoid the attack and manage to get some damage in before the enemy rears up another attack.
But if you miss-time your parry, which seems much harder to time for me, you'll either lose shield durability or take full damage. And you don't even get a special attack for parrying like yo do with flurry rush. So dodging becomes a low risk, high reward maneuver, while parrying is the opposite.
I've been playing Lies of P recently and that game does a great job of balancing out its dodge and guard/parry. While your dodge roll is the typical Fromsoft fare, with the I-frames and whatnot, it still encourages you to learn to parry.
For starters, enemies and bosses can sometimes perform 'fury attacks', which are attacks that can not be i-framed through or simply blocked. You either have to get right out of the way of them, which isn't always possible, or go for the parry.
On top of that, guarding regular attacks not only significantly reduces damage received, but also turns a large portion of the damage you do receive into 'guard regain', which is HP you can get back by attacking the enemy. And of course a well timed parry will negate damage entirely.
Better yet, parries deal both 'stagger damage' and 'destruction damage' to the enemy.
Stagger damage, as the name implies, is something that will case the enemy to stagger once you've dealt enough of it. You can then knock them down with a strong attack, allowing for an opportunity to safely perform massive damage. While Destruction damage is damage dealt to an enemies weapon and can basically only be dealt by parrying. After you've dealt enough destruction, the enemies weapon will straight up just break clean in two, reducing both the range and damage dealt by most of their attacks. This goes for bosses as well.
So with Lies of P, guarding and parrying come with risks, but also greater rewards. Whereas dodging might be easier in some cases, but also doesn't reward you nearly as much. Basically, the game balances it's defensive options really well. I started having a much easier time with the game when I stopped playing it like an average souls game and started making use of the parry more.
The parry in BOTW is awful, harder to execute and more risky than dodging and way worse reward. It's only good for lasers.
Its pretty good and easy when you learn thr enemies attack pattern
nigga the parry in botw is fine you just suck
That's...That's actually genius. Parrying and Guarding have always had the problem of "why should I NOT try to attack instead?" Well, just make the guarding and parrying eventually perma-debuff enemy attacks!
Also I'm surprised they had the guts to let you perma-debuff bosses at all. Sure, you play fair and parry to debuff their weapon like that, but CLEARLY every game's best option should be the boring glass cannon! Avoiding one/two-shot deaths with higher power is DEFINITELY more skillful than parrying and being REWARDED for it, right guys?...You can tell I dislike certain skill-based indie games.
Tbh, parrying attacks in BOTW feels sublime, especially ranged ones; even if it's not always optimal
On the shield topic in Dark Souls, I see your point but it was surely possible to play with a shield in DS1, much less in DS2 and DS3.
Not suprised to see MGR in there, you forgot to mention, however, that the "dodge" in MGR also double as an attack and your combo doesn't reset if you use it meaning it can become another way to integrate evasion into your offense.
You should try to play God Hand for the PS2. In it, you evade with the right stick. Push it back for a backflip, sideways for a sidestep and up for a quick duck. In that game, different attacks require you to use the correct dodge manouver (like an overhead blow cannot be ducked, but needs to be sidestepped).
Yeah I didn't personally like the MGR dodge but I know other players are effective with it. I've heard a lot about God Hand and I really dig Shinji Mikami's stuff. It's definitely on my list for the future
god hand ran so god of 4 could crawl
It is absolutely possible to play with a shield in DS2 as well, in fact it might even be better than DS1.
DS3 tried to do everything it can to punish shield users, but shields once again became more viable in Elden Ring, especially with the new guard counter mechanic.
"different attacks requires you to use the correct dodge manouver"
That's an indicator that developers kinda lazy to design the bosses. So dodge roll that can avoid any attacks is a tool for developers to simplify their work on designing the bosses.
@@-Shibbi I dislike that a dodge roll can counter *everything* while a block can only counter *some* things. But at least blocking is low-risk for the cases where it does work.
Now if you want to talk about how parries counter even *fewer* attacks, and you can't even know which attack they counter without checking a wiki, not THAT is piss poor design.
The only game allowed to keep dodge rolling imo is Monster Hunter because it doesn't even work the same way, and it's been around longer than Souls.
Also, every Armored Core from 4 onwards has something like a dodge roll called a quick boost, which thrusts you in a given direction quickly, but it has no I-frames, so it's not used to phase through attacks but rather to reposition yourself or simply to move faster and close in on enemies. It can be used as a dodge, but only to avoid touching an attack, because if an attack touches you during it, you still get hit. In a way it feels like a jump but in directions other than up, or like an air dash in a fighting game.
Love how the MH dodge role is so versatile. It’s meant to be a combination of evading and repositioning to punish monsters, but you can also use for other things. God I love MH.
MH is actually nuanced with its evasion systems. You hardly get any s, you’re expected to be repositioning constantly. Whereas souls you can roll spam and play hyper aggressive with its mediocre combat system, MH you’re far more weighty. You need to plan out and position yourself for attack accordingly.
And that's why Monster Hunter is harder than any souls game xD
And Devil May Cry, it also has different dodging mechanics such as Trickster with Dante, Vergil with its Dark Slayer style that allows him to dash very quickly and teleport instantly, and then Nero with table hooper.
Kingdom Hearts had dodge roll since KH1 too. No i-frame BS either. They get to keep it.
I believe Dragons Dogma is a good example on what a 'dodge' maneuver should be. In this game, different classes can avoid or mitigate damage in a variety of ways. Sure, you can roll, but only if you are using daggers (aka one of the rogue vocations). This forces a different approach for the other playstyles, with the mage being capable of hovering above the battlefield; the warrior hyper-armoring and facetanking through everything like the powerhouse he is; or the Mystic Knight countering stuff at the right moment to automatically cast a revenge spell. This way, each vocation feels completely unique, and you don't end up using the ''desperate roll'' as a crutch.
such pain in the ass mechanics to tie dodge roll to particular class/weapon. It's like I have to use sidestep AoW in elden ring to dodge instead it being readily available. It's like ds2 all over again in some sense where you need to level up adp to get better dodge i-frame. BS mechanics
@@moonrabbit2334 the idea is that all options are perfectly viable, so you wouldn’t feel the need to get the dodge roll all the time.
@@moonrabbit2334if you play Dragon’s Dogma, you’d see the dodge roll isn’t that massive to the combat, hell most attacks can be ran away or jumped from.
"Known for its tough-as-nails bosses"
Shows pinwheel
The big advantage is I-frame dodges is that you can stay within combat range. After doing all the Souls games I finally picked up Ocarina of Time recently and honestly it feels so awkward to dance right on the edge of the enemies' range, especially cause my sword usually is smaller.
That's a good point. The dodge roll is there as one of the ways to mitigate the high amount of damage received when it, but also there to keep you in the flow close to the enemy all the while.
I think Monster Hunter has a great implementation of Dodge Roll, your default Dodge Rolls in MH don't have a lot of i-frames and a good portion of monsters's attacks have too big of an active hitbox that makes it harder to dodge through attacks so you end up relying more on positioning to avoid attacks and using dodges to outspace these attacks, you can i-frame some attacks and roars with precision but you have means to help you dodge, first when you have your weapons unsheathed you can only use regular rolls/hops but if you sheath your weapons and make your character face the opposite direction from the monsters and then run and try to roll you will activate what we call the superman dive, its a maneuver that grants tons of i-frames but you have to preemptively do all previous mentioned steps to make use of it so you can't pull this out of your ass to dodge from the extra dangerous attacks, second you can improve your regular dodge through 2 armor skills, evade window which increases your roll's i-frames or evade distance which increases the distance of your roll, so you can choose to improve how well you dodge through attacks or double down and focus on improving your outspacing. Monster Hunter really nails on how to make a dodge that doesn't make attacks trivial but also gives you options to compensate its shortcomings.
glad to see another hunter in a "dodge roll" video lol
btw
souls fans aren't a fan of the idea "adding extra stats for better rolling/s (like evasion deco in MH), see what happened to dark souls 2 (even though it's not really the case) 😂
I think the dodge roll was popularized in Dark Souls (and Demon Souls) simply put because Miyazaki/FromSoftware is incompetent in certain aspects.
People will chalk it off as “git gud” but truth is, defenses are kinda broken (in the non-overpowered sense) yet the developers still insist on “wasting” resources to them, at some point in New Game Pluses it doesn’t matter how much defenses you got, you shouldn’t get hit, and sure, this could be ignored if, say, souls games are action games like DMC and Ninja Gaiden, but they are RPGs, with shields, armor and the like you can even upgrade, but what does that entail exactly?
In DS1, even with giant set at +5, you still take loads of damage by mobs at ng+5, in DS2, you have a stat, vitality, you can use in order to equip stronger armor (which you can upgrade further by using titanites), but the reality is that the way physical defense and stamina regeneration are calculated, it means you are actually penalised by using armors, they do not protect you at all, and just slow down your stamina, ds3, cherry on top, decided to bug out spears and thrusting sword’s main function, now you cannot even shield poke with them! You’re better off with a heavy weapon and perseverance BY FAR, And Bloodborne has a troll shield, hell, I’ve seen lots of people do the cloud save trick to get the platinum, because they are scared at the prospect of doing ng+ there.
These are all attempts at making defensive gameplay, that turned out catastrophic, so what can someone do, other than just using rolls and abuse the high amount of i-frames rolling has for “defense”? It’s completely out of character for a knight with a big weapon to roll like a rogue, but those are the limitations the games have.
Elden Ring is kinda better, you got stuff like black flame protection, golden vow easily obtainable, compared to the ds3 counterpart, the dragoncrest greatshield actually does something (at least pve), and introduced the guard counter mechanic, so that shields aren’t useless like they were in ds3 with enemies basically having infinite stamina, adding also great spears and hts is another welcoming addition, now you can realistically roleplay as a sturdy knight, or even out of shape wizard who cannot roll and beat the bosses easily, sometimes it’s even encouraged, as some bosses like Malenia give naked people with colossal hammers a hard time (when in DS2 there was literally no reason not to be that).
Parry is another kind of beast, because most bosses cannot be parried, and the infamous ones that can, like Gwyn, we know it wasn’t even intentional, as Miyazaki wanted him to be the last hard struggle, yet found out how parry trivialised him in an interview.
I played all of Elden Ring using a heavy shield + Guard Counter build (which is a new mechanic introduced in ER), only bosses I had issues with were obviously Malenia (becuse her stupid healing works by just hitting you even if you take no damage from her attacks) and the final boss (Radagon + Elden Beast combo), besides those three I defeated every boss in the game without dodging at all.
I'll be honest Greatshield(haaligtree knight one) and straight swords build using guard counter, two square off moves made me completely invincible. Unless I am flanked, I never died in the playthrough atleast not to any boss. Also you can use multiple AoW. It's super effective, too effective tbh, people just don't know how to make a build and just use a plain claymore and complain game's too hard and not doing enough damage
Actually, Monster Hunter did it first I believe.
Oversaturation is the word I think you're looking for.
Cant say I share your sentiment on the topic, I feel that if you have a tool at your disposal that helps at solving a problem one way and youre confortable with that tool, then by all means use that tool, but dont condemn something just cause youre getting tired of it.
fair enough, and I have no problem with the tool itself! I'm just tired of seeing the exact same tool everywhere lol, at least in places where I feel like it could have been changed a little to spice things up more
@@lorenzotalkdark souls and from soft products should keep the dodge roll as that's an essential part of their gameplay. It's like asking to remove the jump from mario.
@@epickilliancant compare a plattformer, where is an 100% needed tool, with an RPG that has more than 1 replacement or alternative
@@ZombieSlayerrrrr then why don't he just use the alternative
@@ZombieSlayerrrrrnah bro if you're genuinely advocating for the souls games to remove dodges or their i frames you're fighting a losing battle
I like dodge systems more than parrying because it places more focus on mobility and positioning. Sekiro is great, but often while playing I feel like I barely need to touch the thumbsticks at all, I just stand there, stationary, and alternate between L1 and R1 until whatever is in front of me dies.
that mf Rittzler must be friends with the Polygon journo that said "Devil _May Cry and God of War are so out of fashion, games should follow more the movement of good games like Dark Souls_ lul" . Everytime a worm-brain says Devil May Cry has "fallen out of fashion" i lose braincells
I disagree with this. It doesn't need to and won't die. It'll simply evolve. We've already seen this with Sekiro and Elden Ring. Sekiro went too far and basically made the dodge only useful for a few highly specific moves (like the final slash in Owl's combo or to avoid the firecracker hit) meaning you'd have to know the boss inside out before it's useful. Elden Ring balanced it out. It gave you Ashes of War like Raptor of the Mists, gave us better ways to parry that make it easier without outright pulling a Bloodborne/Sekiro and making it OP, gave us guard counters that made blocking a tool for offense again, and most importantly: Gave us an additional rolling button. The jump. And unlike Sekiro, it isn't only useful as a counter to one specific type of move.
You can beat any of these games without getting hit without rolling. It's been done. So the rolling isn't necessary. It is complimentary. That is an important distinction. The problem lies in how useful of a function it is while being the sole function at that level of usefulness. And again, we're already seeing this being balanced out with Elden Ring. Casual players felt too used to their O button to properly use it, but once you've learned how insanely vast the amount of attacks you can brutally counter with the jump are, you'll feel like a God in that game. The shit you can pull against Morgott, Margit, Malenia, Maliketh and Godfrey and many more using the jump is nuts. Pretty much every upper body horizontal attack can be jumped over and punished, creating a whole new dynamic that makes Soulsborne play not as an almost turn based game of dodging until the enemy is done to land an attack of your own, but one in which you and the boss/enemy are both attacking at the same time, with you nullifying their attempts to land your own. It baffles me every time I see people complaining about how long enemy combos are in Elden Ring because it means they cannot counter. They missed the point. Those combos are so long to incentivize you to use the OTHER ways of countering them so that you do not need to wait.
The dodge roll isn't flawed anymore. The playerbase is because they refuse to move away from it. You could fairly argue that the game should bottleneck players away from it by nerfing it, but Sekiro did just that in brutal fashion and many people still refused to do it. It isn't a gaming problem. It's a mass mindset problem.
I think people simply need time to adapt to the new systems being introduced. They need to stop being afraid to try new things. I will always think of this system at its core as the apex of 3rd person combat. Not just for Soulsbornes either. Darksiders 2 has peak gaming combat and functions similarly, just on a higher level of pacing and with many different abilities. There's other underrated games like Lord of The Rings War In The North that had similar defense systems to Dark Souls, just with longer time between rolls but also longer s which created a different dynamic.
It's simply a good system especially for longtime martial artists like myself because it's rooted in the core of combat: Movement is the most versatile tool you have. In grappling, in striking, in fencing, even in airsoft or paintball or live firefights. In everything. Because rapid movement especially in ways that cover multiple feet of distance within an instant simply makes you extremely hard to track and hit while opening up entirely new angles to mount your own offense. It's a system that hits close to home.
That is the dumbest analogy I seen. And I been doing Martial arts for more than 30 years. Rolling shouldnt be overdone because its not really emersive to dodge roll 90 percent of the time.
@@vagabond4576 You literally just disregarded 99% of my comment. I specifically said you DON'T need to dodge all the time.
dodge rolling is not rooted in combat lolol there's a reason none of your enemies use it in these games. it's stupid, looks stupid, and would easily punished by someone who's not slow as shit.
It's strange to criticise dodge rolls for being oversaturated and then praise Arkham Asylum's combat, which was copied by pretty much every action game in the early 2010's. Batman, AC from 2 to Unity, Shadow of Mordor, Ryse, Sleeping Dogs and recently Spider-Man have all used the reactionary counter-attack system and while some of them added their own spin and depth to it, it still got old very fast and often boiled combat down to waiting for a button prompt with no regard for positioning or aggressive playstyle.
It'd be cool if the dodge roll can be used in a game so that it lets you get to hidden areas behind some short holes in the wall, so you roll through that hole and get to that secret area.
And that's why I love Dragon's Dogma. It has shields with perfect block and parry for the Fighter, Assassin, and Mystic Knight vocations (classes). It gives the dodge roll for dagger vocations like Strider, Ranger, Assassin, and Magick Archer. Meanwhile, Mages and Sorcerers get the levitate option to avoid attacks (the least useful of all in the game, but seems to be reworked in the sequel). Warriors are tank vocations but still have a skill that can work as a dodge.
Not to mention that most classes have skills that give some hyper-armor or I-frames and can be effectively used as substitute of a dodge. It's much better than simply add a dodge button to everyone.
6:25 dude, you must play Sekiro. Fromsoftware already solved your concern there. Dodge roll is no a thing in Sekiro and you must deflect attack, do mikiri counters and so on, also new Jedi series do pretty good job in this field. I was really disappointed when I saw that you can't do any deflects in Elden Ring because it felt like this system should be there at least in some simplified manner as an option opposed to dodge role. I tried some mode that add this deflect mechanics in Elden Ring and oh boy it feels so good.
Vanilla KH2 not having the dodge roll is such a blessing. Sure FM has many bosses where it come in handy but blocking / reflega usage is so fluent you dont need it.
The fact that vanilla KH2's dodge move (Quick Step) is something you need to go out of your way to unlock, and is totally missable makes it feel like don't really need it and ands it's more of a neat trick than a core part of your tool kit.
Dark souls rol cannot die
You gotta hit it to do so and It keeps light-rolling away.
In Elden Ring you can more safely parry by cueing a block on top of your parry so if you miss the window you still save yourself. Hold left trigger during the telegraph, then press left bumper during the parry window. Use a shield with a 100% defense rating so you don't take damage from blocks. Against magic users you can try a Mirror Shield + Carian Retaliation combo, but if you miss you'll get bleed through damage. Golden Parry is an upgrade for physical defenses that has longer range and deals higher stagger damage
In Spider-Man you can do an improvised counter takedown by perfect dodging under or over an enemy, kicking them away, and webbing them up while they're on the ground. You can also interrupt certain melee attacks by punching them or popping a suit power before they can land the hit. Ground Pounds and Jump Offs are also compatible perfect dodge moves if you do them during the window, but jump offs in the first game are a little laggy, so they're more consistent for defense in Spider-Man: Miles Morales. Some suit powers leave you vulnerable to ranged attacks at the end of their animation, though. The Web Shot Counter skill allows you to instantly take down ranged enemies after a perfect dodge. The Threat Sensors suit mod rewards good timing with multiple seconds of *extremely* powerful slow motion. Dodging in this game does *not* give you i-frames and you *can* dodge into an attack. If you spam it to try and reposition safely you will be punished for having bad timing. It's not like Dark Souls because dodging outside the window carries a high degree of risk for minimal reward. The Quick Recovery skill allows you to get a big jump out of a dodge by pressing cross afterwards, which can be used to reposition while still leaving yourself reactible, but I'd still caution against using the initial dodge during any time that *isn't* within the perfect dodge window because you can get still get hit that way even if you just do it once
Check out Execution Producer's videos on Assassin's Creed 2. With perfect parries, four different kinds of counters depending on which weapon you have equipped (or no weapon), two different kinds of dodges that can be used to set up different combos, *and* two different kinds of interrupts, it's the closest I've seen to a game that has every kind of defense all accessible at the same time. You can even perfect parry faster with the Hidden Gun! The amount of creativity on offer here might be perfect for you. The only problem is that enemies don't have access to even half this moveset, so bosses usually become tanky slogs instead of strategic games of trying to slip past each other's defenses
Monster hunter has a dodge roll (which can sometimes turn into a dodge step after some attacks) with very few i-frames. You can increase the i-frames or distance of the roll using skills, but that will likely come at the cost of damage skills
It's kind of wild to see MH get absolutely zero mention when MH's dodge roll has a decent likelihood of being the very thing that inspired the DS dodge-roll. Especially cuz despite being insanely similar to the DS roll it's generally used very differently
The main issue is that the basic dodge you get in Monster Hunter is built around the games generally having much more precise and well telegraphed hitboxes.
Even in dark souls, the average attack is MUCH more sloppy, so a limited roll would just be useless.
Very limited dodge I frames and distance demands a level of precision to hitboxes and animations that not even Dark Souls achieves well enough to pull off, let alone other, less well made games.
I agree that the dodge roll being the default isn’t great for combat. But I would like to point out the Nioh series and it’s evasion system for people that haven’t played the best souls like ever made. Nioh’s default evasion is a step dodge and it is extremely quick. It doesn’t have a ton of i-frames, but it also has very little recovery, allowing you to stay in the action and continue playing aggressively. If you feel that certain attacks are harder to time with a step dodge, you can double tap the evasion button and enter a dodge roll that provides more i-frames but a longer recovery. Nioh is a game about playing aggressively and constantly dealing damage to enemies and bosses, so the vast majority of the time I just use the step dodge so that I can stay in the bosses face and combo them up. Nioh also let’s you block with no cost to your health, it just takes a large chunk of your stamina which is the most important resource you manage. There’s also a wide variety of parries you can equip in your skill slots but the majority are only useful against human enemies. To sum it up, the combat mechanics and enemy/boss design of Nioh 2 has perfected the souls like genre and that game should be the blueprint from which new soulslikes are built from.
Completely agree. The only problem I have with Nioh 2 is how instantaneously the player dies from one small mistake. I love the challenge, these games should be challenging, but seriously, a basic ass skeleton spearman can oneshot you in .3 seconds if you make one slight misplay.
@@Jack_______oh It is for sure frustrating when you are learning the game’s systems but I also think it forces players to attempt to master these mechanics. You don’t have any room for error which forces you to “git gud” to progress, where lots of souls likes can let you progress through and area or a boss fight even if you never learned how to properly handle them.
3:41 ...what? Literally the fastest form of transportation on foot with glitches is rolling bro
I'm not opposed to having a dodge roll to get out of large aoe attacks, but I don't like it if its the default way of avoiding damage. A side step does the same thing and looks way slicker, especially if your wearing full plate armour... I always through dodging in armour looked a bit silly.
That's because it is silly. If you did that in a real fight you'd just fucking die.
Dodge rolling in full plate armor does look silly, but a side-step isn't really feasible with some of the enemies you fight in these games. Like good luck side-stepping Radahn or Astel in Elden Ring. A game would have to be built from the ground up and be basically centered around side steps, which isn't a recipe for a very popular game.
also rolling in full-plate is entirely possible IRL - provided the armor is properly fitted and such @@Seoul_Soldier
same here,
i liked the dodge roll in dark souls1, cuz it really wasnt just glorified i-frame buttons since bosses and tough enemies had lingering hitbox, so yeah it felt really nice to get out of the way instead of ds3 and ER's LITERALLY DODGE ROLLING INTO ENEMIES FKIN BLADE which is basically meta in ds3 and what not.
so yeah i always tried to get outta the way in ds3 bosses instinctively but it felt weird and waaay less effective than doing a rolly polly forward and if anything it made ds3 combat worse for me, it never felt organic to to dodge roll into attacks and dodge in ds3 kinda feels out of place and doesnt feel well paced for the ds3 combat personally at all then i realized ds3 is basically reskin of bloodborne in dark spul reskin,
so they removed the sick af sidestep/dash of BB but kept the same combat and gave us a dodge roll that feels outta place.
i dont mind fast paced combat or dodges at all , l ove sekiro bloodborne and any other fast paced melee and hacknslash, example i absolutely love tge dodge/sidesteps in Sekiro, it looks sick af and i can do it consistently all the time and it is really stylish to dodge sideways at the last moment then counter it with a twirling heavy thrust/shuriken slash step/whirlwind slash or anything really instead of just standing their and boringly parry it. yeah the dodge works perfectly even with my average skill it is just that soulsVeTeRaN are too used to rolling forward with heaven which punishes seriously in sekiro
i really want to play a combat that is designed around dodge roll that dont have i-frames or just have sekiro sidestep/dash (not witcher3 that felt weird) maybe it is about time i start playing MonsterHunter tbh
also, shields were really good in ds1 and i am guessing DeS as well.
@@Seoul_Soldierwhat do you mean man, there are 2 side step skills in elden ring, it was so good fromsoft nerf one of the skill 😂
On the topic of parrying in Elden Ring, WHY did they make it so awful??? Most bosses don't even get parried when you parry them, you have to get three successful parries to break their stance. That is insane when it's so much easier and safer to land charged heavies or arts, which are far more effective at breaking stances.
Elden Ring's parry window is also tiny, unintuitive, and the risk reward ratio is heavily unfavourable for the player. If you whiff a parry, not only do you take damage, you also get your stamina bar drained by a huge amount. That just means you're unlikely to be able to dodge away to heal.
Why would they even include Parrying when they make it unrewarding, unintuitive, and unrewarding vs just pressing a button and effortlessly dodging 99% of attacks in the game????
I feel Lies of P and Sekiro do a decent interpretation of what you'd like.
Lies of P
Sure, there's a roll if you dodge without lock-on or Link Dodge (hehe, Link rolls when he dodges), but it's a close enough difference with the Sidestep you take.
However, Fable Arts have most of the options you mentioned.
- (Base Ability) Guard -> Attack = HP Regain
- (Base Ability) Perfect Guard = Enemy Weapon weakens/Breaks and takes Stagger Damage
Fable Arts --v
- Perfect Guard + Payback Swing = Enemy Stagger/Weapon/HP damages
- Guard Parry = Handle Fable Art right before receiving attack to return the attack
- Killer Attack = Attack WHILE the enemy attacks for massive HP/Stagger damages
- Retreating Stab = Stab with the weapon to inmediately dash backwards
- Endure = Take reduced damage for a time and gain Hyper Armor
- Absolute Defense = Become completely invulnerable (excluding Status Effects) for 1-2 seconds.
Even another dodge exists, where you can max out Falcon Eyes to dodge far backwards while shooting an explosive at the enemy and optionally shoot a second bullet. It's great. In addition, upgrading Aegis gives you a gool ol' Shield to use while attacking, but EXPLODES when used, pushing you far back and hurting the enemy and their weapon, which can then transition into a high HP/Stagger damage with a forward dash blast. It's amazing.
Sekiro
- Dodge = Simple I-Frame Sidestep
- Mikiri Counter = Dodge TOWARDS an enemy to step on their weapon during a Thrust Attack for massive Posture damage
- Block = Blocks every normal attack, taking chip damage
- Deflect = The exact same as a Perfect Guard, but Wolf moves his blade in the attack's direction and looks sick as f*ck.
- Jump = Avoids Sweep Attacks, allowing you to jump on an enemy's head to deal Posture Damage and can slash to deal HP/Posture damages as well, or jump away from the enemy.
- Running = Evades all attacks, mainly used for Grapple Attacks. You can't do sh*t here, but retaliate while the enemy returns to neutral.
Shinobi Prosthetics
- Aged Raven Feather = Tank the attack at the right time (Grapples excluded) to fall on an enemy with a heavy plunge attack for HP/Posture.
- Fan Umbrella = Shield, but cool. Can redirect attacks when blocking with it for good damage, giving Elden Ring the idea for Guard Counters.
I'm probably missing one or two...
Heads up regarding Sekiro mechanics, you do NOT have to dodge towards an enemy to Mikiri Counter them; it can be performed from neutral position (don't try to go sideways though as that will def fuck it up, lol).
Its so weird to hear you almost entirely omit Platinum Games from this argument up until Revengance, the ONE Platinum Games title that favored parries. The exact mechanic you described in FF16 was popularized in Bayonetta, so much so that its earned the term "Platinum Dodge" and "Witch Time" in some circles. They use it in damn near every game they touch, including Transformers Devastation and to a lesser extent Nier Automata.
(Warning-I'm about to get nerdy about Kingdom Hearts)
Also... Dodge Roll in KH2?.. Well for one, base (2005 release) KH2 didn't have the same dodge that KH1 had. It instead had Quick Run. Its an ability initially unique to a limited use form called Wisdom form, that focuses on quick movements and long range magic spam. In KH2 you unlock certain mobility moves for Sora's base ability set like double jump, Quick Run, and Glide by leveling up the respective forms that feature them. Quick Run most notably is more of a dash that gets longer and the ability to turn as it levels up... and it doesn't really have (useful) I frames like the Souls Roll does. The Dodge Roll you see now was added to the Final Mix (like a directors cut) version, which wasn't released internationally up until the Remasters on PS3. Its also tied to Limit Form, a new addition that makes Sora's clothes and moveset similar to the first game... and this form isn't even unlocked until a little more than halfway through the game.
I'm mostly bringing this up because, as a person who's played most of the series at the higher levels, KH and KH2 especially is more of a block centric game. You get block the earliest, and it has a mechanic where if you correctly press block the first time Sora will continue to hold that block without player input for a short time and catch any other attack or projectile that comes immediately after the last attack, and will repeat until there's a break in the combo. Even in the first game which does have a "Dodge Roll", it is not very safe, and the game really hedges on the tech system where by if your attack clashes with another enemies light attack you can counter, (or in the case of heavier attack you both stagger with no damage). The Dodge Roll also doesn't strafe like it does in souls games, because Sora doesn't really strafe either, if you hold left or right you don't perfectly circle the targeted enemy. Dodging largely gets replaced with Glide once its unlocked, because the specific circumstances in which blocking isn't optimal is when you legitimately need distance during extended AOEs, Rush Downs, or VERY protracted combos. But Block also gets replaced with better blocks like Reflect, which counters all incoming damage during an incredibly short but spammable bubble (at the cost of MP) or in some games barrier and round block that blocks from all directions. Most evasive maneuvers in most KH games aren't about timing specific attacks in a single enemy's combo (the dance as people call it) and actually have a lot of lag before you can attack again, whereas most blocks have a immediate opportunity to counter attack or resume your combo.
With a focus on Crowds, Aerial Combat, and stun lock loops, KH has a LOT more in common with DMC and other flashy action games. The Dark Souls comparison really starts and ends at "An action RPG where despite having robust RPG mechanics can be played well enough to avoid all damage" which is why BOTH have prolific histories of level one and challenge runs. In the case of KH2 specifically, a gigantic skill ceiling that most people won't engage with between the difficulty options, largely optional super bosses, and said robust RPG system as a safety net.
ooh... that ratio isn't too happy
Have you played Lies of P? It's not perfect but it wears its souls-like inspirations on its sleeve HEAVILY, and does a pretty good and satisfying job, and kind of does its own thing with it! I did not expect it to be one of the hardest souls-like out there, but once it clicked it felt really good to play and kept me wanting to be better at the game's mechanic, and felt excited to try out other weapons/builds for next playthroughs/NG++. I highly recommend playing this game, especially if you want a challenge, and are willing to die a lot to learn the attack patterns(if you are a Fromsoft fan, I'm sure you do). Just don't go in thinking you're going to play a Dark Souls game(combat wise/mechanically) because its beauty is when you accept/learn how the game wants you to play it.
With that, great video! Very interesting topic to be considered for future games!
To explain Rittz' comment a little more, KH2's original release didn't have the dodge roll that was in KH2 and the ability to dodge in general wasn't something you got in your regular kit even in the Final Mix release as you had to level up one of two of Sora's drive forms to get one and only one was the traditional dodge that you had in KH1 only now it can be leveled up for added i-frames. The game actually works pretty fine without it too as everything had to be designed without it in mind anyway and I think you'd probably like the other dodge the game gives you more since it's more for creating space.
The Offensive Defensive in MGR is actually really good too since while it won't replace parries for you, it is very good for getting out of the way of grabs when you don't have the room navigate around them and it keeps pressure on the enemies as well since the dodge itself is an attack.
What are you talking about? I have KH2, literal release day PS2 copy for NA, and it has dodge roll. Kh just doesn't have s.
@@tenesenka If your talking about Quick Run, that isn't the dodge i'm referring to.
@@tenesenkayou can only get dodge roll from upgrading the limit form which isn't in the original game so you can only get quick run which is only for repositioning you get this from wisdom form
Fromsoftware themselves are pushing for the new wave: counters and posture. If you see how dodges work for Sekiro and AC6, then you see Nioh, Lies of P, Lords of the Fallen, Wo Long... Dodges become a complimentary tool, and is more demanding of you, instead of bein a free ticket out of damage.
I favor this approach over dodge roll, dependent ones, because you are forced to take the enemy head on, instead of dodging in once and avoiding the entire combo.
I remember way back in 2004 with Ninja Gaiden for the OG Xbox. Does it count?
Monster Hunter inspired Souls games fighting mechanics a lot
the game released in 2004, it's really important to dodge as well as repositioning
as a big player of both series, many combat mechanics in Souls games like the positionning, dodge rolling, gathering / buying consumables to use in combat come from Monster Hunter
and I don't want to see dodge rolling disappear at all
in Monster Hunter, Capcom has been adding some parrying / counter mechanics in the latest games, and it's far from being appreciated by all, as it's doesn't require players to reposition, being aware of the enemy's movement, you just wait for an attack, use your parry, and that's it, spam it until the enemy dies
I tried GOW, and my god I HATED the fighting system in this game
It's funny that Monster Hunter has become progressively less soulsy as everything else has done the opposite
wait what? oot didnt have a dodge roll? Its the a button move he does when moving forward
is it a "dodge roll" though? I mean yes technically, but it functions so differently from what modern dodge rolls are like - I think I've played through OoT at least 5 times and I've never used the roll as an actual evasive move in combat - I always just sidestep or do the backflip. But hey, maybe I've just been playing the game wrong this whole time, wouldn't be the first occasion lol
@@lorenzotalk I def use it to dodge on occasion, its niche but its useful
@@lorenzotalkthe dodge roll in oot also has I-frames
I dont know, parries that are just "wait for startup frame of enemy and then press the "i win button"" have always felt like the combat got old real fast. Like in the old assassins creed games, I literally almost fell asleep in some fights and still absolutely dominated.
For sure, the balancing with parries and counters is important to get right. I think AC has always struggled with combat, either too easy or enemies that are too spongey
@@lorenzotalk true, old ac games were always just kind of "wait for the parry option" and the new ones are just fighting brickwalls with sticks
I think the differences with the example of arkham games, is that:
1. Parry is not the "i win button", just negates damage (it mostly finishes the enemy if it;s the last one standing)
2. The game introduces different enemies with different kind of parrys
@@naokaderapider4210 agreed but, as a fan of AC odyssey specifically, you gotta buy good weapons, use special arrows, and combo that with your abilities, specially when it's small guys backing a big guy, kick the small one off a cliff
This was a good video, with a bad argument, and I agree. I love a good dodge roll, but it's ridiculous to see it in games it has no business being. I think the dodge roll is a timeless mechanic, it's just some games include it as a token mechanic. It's not the first mechanic to be cursed by capitalist developers and it most definitely won't be the last. But arbitrarily adding a dodge roll to a game means nothing. Dark Souls became popular because it recognized a demand and then delivered a product that fulfilled that demand. Not because of the dodge roll.
I'm sure somebody already said this, but dodge roll in Kingdom Hearts was more a thing in the first game. Kingdom Hearts 2 is the game that sort of phased out the dodge roll. You CAN unlock it, but probably late game unless you're specifically playing to get it, and the game is balanced around the new block mechanic. Most first time players would never even know it's still there unless someone told them. You're more likely to start using the Reflect spell than find the dodge roll, and tell me that's not a unique way of evading attacks.
Ocarina of Time has a dodge roll, you just don't use it when engaging with an enemy, you use it to evade enemies as you run past them and smash into pottery... which is very Souls-y. In essence, Souls games are just the Zelda game that everyone wanted after that one super dark fantasy looking GameCube Zelda tech demo. After Windwaker, Twilight Princess, and then the Wii incident, FromSoft just decided to do it themselves. That's why Elden Ring was an open world game. They were capitalizing on the people looking at Breath of the Wild and thinking, man I wish that game played more like Dark Souls.
If game developers wanna ape that Dark Souls success, look at all the popular game franchises that are being run into the ground these days. I'm sure if someone who's upset about how lackluster those once-great franchises are doing decided to make the game they wanted to play from those franchises that they'd have their very own brand new mega franchise hit on their hands. Don't look at what's popular now, look at what people are asking for and not getting any.
parries to me have always felt stronger than dodging so i spent the time learning windows, even in fighting games i drift towards fighters with counters, it would be great to see more proper use of that mechanic/
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I’d love to see more influence from fighting game mechanics in other games
@@lorenzotalk absolutely one thing ive always wanted to see utilized is the grappling manuvers that are very common in fighters. the idea of grabbing an enemy to throw them around or grasping onto the giant boss to strime them shadow of colossus style is something i wish there was more of.
No. I love rolling. I want it back in Zelda
So you're basically opposed to the animation of dodge rolling, not the mechanic.
You started talking about how dodge roll gives you i-frames and allows you to phase through anything, and I thought you'll make a point about using spacing... But no. Many examples of "other mechanics" you gave are virtually the same as the dodge roll. Metroid, Returnal, Furi are "dodge roll" games, just without the rolling animation.
you make a good point! It'd be great if there were even more diversity but as I mention with the dodging in FF16 - it functions basically identically to a traditional dodge roll, but the minor differences in behavior and animation make it "feel" new and I'd just like to see more variety. And I would say that Metroid's quick 3-point dash is definitely more interesting than it might look at first, compared to Furi and Returnal (in my opinion)
This is a recurring rant topic of mine as well. I am so sick of the lazy hyper-aggressive boss design every action game needs to have now because you have i-frames.
The solution is to keep rolling in these games but limit how they function. Did you know that when you jump in Elden Ring it disables the bottom of your hitbox to let you jump over low attacks? Well simply do exactly the same thing - rolls should disable the top of your hitbox, NOT full invulnerability. No more roly-poly to ignore a fucking nuke from orbit... but still useful for positioning and still can evade many attacks. That one change would make other things like blocking and parrying relevant. No one tool to ignore literally everything.
The dodge roll is super annoying in Gears 5 mp. Looks so out of place to me to see these hulking figures doing that in the middle of a battlefield lol
This video is painfully ignorant of the actual history of rolling in videogames. OOT had a roll with s, serving as the first of its kind. Banjo-Kazooie had an attacking roll using an input closely resembling the modern dodge roll, featuring a burst of momentum useful for changing mobility quickly. The term "Dodge Roll" itself was codified by Kingdom Hearts, released in 2002 as an ability name (far before Demon Souls in 2009). The Souls games' rolls actively subverted expectations of what a roll should be at the time, opting for something slower and clunkier rather than a quick burst option to make it less satisfying and reduce the likelihood of players spamming the s.
For the combat of Batman Arkham Asylum, it's basically the same principle as the combat of the early Assassin's Creed games shown well in 2 and Brotherhood for example.
I do miss that combat style in games a lot.
But I don't see how it is relevant to the discussion at hand. Because it didn't require dodge rolls? There was still a lot of mobility in different ways, but the core of the difference is that if combat is centered around countering attacks, then dodges are also a matter of timing and pressing buttons like for counters. Mechanically, it is the same as dodge rolling and parrying, just in a different combat system.
So obviously a souls-like dodge roll wouldn't be necessary in a counter-centric combat style of gameplay.
The two combat styles cannot be simply combined just like that.
The entire reason for the souls dodge rolls is that it is a way to be able to balance the high damage that even common attacks do on you. Of course, it has to be balanced, and not all games who put in these rolls do that well. And of course a lot of games don't need these rolls yet still add them in.
But that is not the fault of the dodge rolls mechanic. It is the fault of bad choices when determining what to add for what types of games and the fault of bad balancing of it.
Saying that dodge rolls themselves are the problem is completely missing the point of the issue. Mechanically speaking, a dodge roll is just the same as a well times dodge in batman, assassin's creed, zelda, etc.
The entire point is the timing, not the look of it.
Edit: I hadn't finished the video. I now see that your point is less removal of dodge rolls, but more so making them more unique by actually integrating them into a game according to the combat style of said game instead of just added the dodge roll as is just because.
I still think that you could've presented your view more clearly earlier on, as to be honest it at points felt like you were only having a bias against the new convention and only liked the way it was done in older games.
And also that you didn't differentiate well enough between how different more modern games apply the dodge rolls, arbitrarily saying that some were more like old dodges and not souls dodge rolls even though there wasn't any such concrete difference outside of bias and how useful the dodge rolls were.
For example, saying that the dodge rolls of Horizon and Hogwarts Legacy were more like uncharted and were thus not as bad was weird. If anything, them being in the games felt more like they were added in just because of trend and that would instead make them worse rather than better. There isn't any problem in having dodge rolls in games that actually incorporate them well into the gameplay. It's more of a problem when it is there without being well incorporated and/or just to be there.
Edit-2: About what you said for the combat and parry system of metal gear rising, you seem to miss one important aspect. That is a mixture of beat-'em-all style with counter style of combat. It is a nice way of doing things, but it wouldn't flow as well in all styles of combat gameplay. The core of the issue is still where to apply things and how to apply them.
The dodge roll has its place in a slower style of combat.
Technically speaking, both versions of parrying are just about pressing 1 button at the right timing and right position.
The difference is that for souls combat you have to move into the right position at the right timing and press the button at the right timing as well, while for Metal Gear Rising, based on what you said, you simply keep pressing a button to be parrying mode and then you press the attack button to parry(counter like in batman and assassin's creed) the incoming attack.
On one side you have a slow and methodical approach of combat gameplay, where you are encouraged to be more assertive in your choices rather than just reactive.
On the other side you have are basically just pressing QTE, blocking or countering incoming attacks without consideration of your surroundings and positioning, and you flow in attacks. This one is all about the spectacle and enjoying taking part in it.
In short, both approaches have their own merits, and whichever you prefer is simply depending on bias and on what you want out of a game.
Neither is worse than the other. And it is NOT a good example to criticize dodge rolls since both styles have completely different philosophies.
Also, by the way, one of the main reasons why the gameplay of fast paced actions games can be like this is because of how damage to the player is handled.
Edit-3: also, saying that the dodges in Metal Gear Rising are worthless isn't a good thing. It's just another example of it being there for nothing. It almost sounds like you want the mechanic to be worthless. It honestly feels more like you just want one type of game to be more common, but instead of making a video about that you decided to make a scapegoat out of dodgerolls and say that it is emblematic of bad combat.
Elden Ring and souls games shouldn't have moments like at 8:58 for that would run counter to the entire philosophy of the game's combat.
Edit-4: I agree that dashes in those games are well done. But why do you view them differently when mechanically they function the same as dodge rolls safe for the appearance of rolling on the ground? Mechanically, dashing through an attack is the same as rolling through it.
I’d like to take it one step further and say the Soulslike genre as a whole needs to take a step back. It feels like every freaking game realized the formula was fun and decided to copy it…for the last ten years. Even Star Wars is doing it. And look…I think the Soulsborne games are some of the greatest games ever made, and I still boot up Bloodborne to this day….but I’m tired of every game having corpse running, limited healing items that only recharge at checkpoints, resting at checkpoints respawning enemies, and slow paced patience battles where single mistakes can end the fight. Not every game needs to do that because every game that does that is Dark Souls but worse. In fact…Dark Souls is Dark Souls but worse. It was revolutionary back in 2010, but since then, they’ve done it so much better so many times between Bloodborne, Dark Souls 3, Sekiro, and Elden Ring. Even Demon’s Souls, which kicked off the genre, doesn’t stack up. And as From Software keeps one-upping themselves, it just makes the copy cats look worse. It’s time to find a new genre to beat into the ground.
In Demons and Dark Souls 1 and somewhat dark souls 2 shields are much better than rolling
Because slow methodical combat is perfect for souls type game
The game that inspired almost all of fromsoft's combat mechanics including their version of the dodge roll was definitely the Monster Hunter series and I will die on this hill. First MH game released 2004, Demon's Souls released 2009. It just wasn't as popular in the US until Monster Hunter World just a few years ago. Probably because it really took off in Japan on PSP and is especially fun in 4 player co-op, and no one here cared about any of that since everyone was just playing CoD at the time.
In MH there are currently fourteen different weapons types. While you can mostly always roll, many of them have very different defensive options and rolling isn't quite as broken as it is in modern soulslikes. Shielded weapons and tank builds are viable. I don't think I'll ever get tired of MH combat, but I'm very tired of the way everyone just copy-pastes dark souls dodge roll into everything. That said MH is totally focused on combat and boss fights while soulslikes are much more about exploration so I can't fault anyone for not going as hard with the combat as MH does.
I'm making a game, it does have a dodge roll. My solution to the problem of it being broken and making combat boring is that it's a fast evasive option with a cooldown, but there are no s so you can't use it as a get out of jail free card to escape every single attack. It's a positioning tool to make footsies more interesting. Don't know if it'll be fun or not lol but I'm trying.
As a person who played games for a long time, dmc series, gow original, Bayonetta, ninja gaiden, even super Mario 64 all had dodge rolls. This entire complaint is a stupid one. Dsouls didn't popularize it, it just make it a core gameplay aspect.
dynamic combat is a good thing, not a bad thing. the reason dodge rolls exist is because they feel good to pull off and they are something that someone can learn how to do. The parry existing alongside that has always been a high risk high reward mechanic. The existence of a dodge roll doesn't take anything away. Why advocate to see it gone? Also, in this video you used a couple examples of games that are incredibly different from souls games. Arpg's and rougelikes often have dashes because the combat is fast and twitchty. Also you failed to mention sekiro's strict non use of dodge rolls and bloodbornes dash.
The problem is likely that the dodge roll in games is THE best method for the evading damage. I think ninja Gaiden might’ve done it the best. In that game, blocking is just as effective as dodging. In Souls likes, blocking is rarely as useful as rolling since, like it was said in the video, dodge rolling is the superior form of damage evasion.
As someone who doesn't go anywhere without a shield in Souls games: hard disagree.
The majority of regular enemies and even some bosses will bounce off your shield when blocked, leaving them open for easy counter attacks. And it's way easier to hold block than time a dodge.
The only time I ever even use dodges is either A) the enemy hits exceptionally hard/fast and eats my stamina, or B) they have high elemental damage that pierces my shield anyway.
And in Elden Ring specifically with Gaurd Countering blocking is absolutely busted.
You don't need a dodge button in every game. Castlevania, Actraiser 2, Zelda 2, etc. all had great combat without dodge buttons. Watch an expert player play any of those games.
@@tevenpowell8023 in almost every scenario though, the better option is to just...
walk out of the attack
@@prettyradhandle
If blocking disadvantageous the target, walking out of the attack is NOT a better option.
@@furyberserk you save stamina, you don't get hit, you reposition, you can possibly also score a counter attack
So you want Dodge Rolls to be removed and replaced with... dodge rolls but with different animations?
personally I get that the roll animation is overused but it is the most realistic way to dodge. The Dodge Dash often has zero build up, you press the button and your character suddenly has the leg strength to fling themselves 10 meters to the side and to break perfectly without losing balance.
The mistake many games which copy the dodge roll from Dark Souls make is that they forget to copy the whole roll mechanics. In Dark Souls your roll changes depending on your equipment. It can be fast and far if you use light equipment or it can be slow and clunky if you wear heavy equipment.
And even you arguement that the roll shouldnt be able to make you escape certain attacks is weird if you praise the dodge dash which does the same, which you even show at 10:15, where the character dashes into a fireball and is completely fine.
to answer your first question - yes (more or less)! I don't entirely mind the mechanics of a dodge roll, just the overuse of it and the similar rolling animation in other games. A little variety goes a long way for me.
I do like the equipment changing the dodge roll in Dark Souls but I wish it was implemented slightly differently, but that's a different topic for a different day.
Anyways on your last point this is very much subjective but in Furi's case where you pointed out, I just personally don't mind a sci-fi light speed dash going through attacks nearly as much as a slower, realistic roll. In Furi and Metroid it feels more like a "blink" than an actual movement dash but hey, that's just personal preference, and starts diving more into "immersion vs. fun". These aren't "better" than dodge rolls, I just like more variety
I love the dodge roll, when it fits the game and is done well.
In fromsofts games it usually is, but in games outside of it I didn't see a lot of good results.
I actually prefer it from combo based games, dodge and placement feels more interesting than learning and repeating series of buttons. But it requires more sense of details to be interesting.
I just think it makes the combat feel more intense when you have not only to have the reflex to avoid but also the split second decision of where you go, are you going left or right because you know where the next attack will be ? Are you getting closer to the ennemy because you believe you can punish them before the next attack ? or away because you know a combo is coming ?
When done right it's simply the most enjoyable way to handle combat for me. The reason why Sekiro is my least liked fromsoft game is mostly because I think the parry system fails to make the game as interesting, because between that and the removal of customization it felt like I was more learning the one correct way to fight than creating my style by making decisions.
I recommend you check out Clash: Artifacts of Chaos. All different styles/stances only consist of one singular attack string, but there's a few other moves (Jump, Charge and Run) as well as three different directions to dodge in (forward, backwards and sideways) that can all become an attack.
And the game encourages attack canceling too. The *moment* your previous attack hits an enemy, your animation gets canceled and you can perform the next move immediately, provided it's not part of the normal attack string.
All stances have unique animations too, and you can have two equipped to swap between at any time. So for example you can mix one stance that has some further-reaching dodges with longer recovery times with one that stays closer to the enemy and has a quicker animation.
Very much recommend to check it out and spread the word about it.
I feel the opposite way about Sekiro. The game was about teaching you to fight like Sekiro, not about molding him into whatever monstrosity you thought he should be. I understand the frustration but that's what I loved about the game. And honestly, if you think that Sekiro lacked decision making then I'm sorry to say that you just weren't very good at Sekiro.
@@Seoul_Soldier I know I'm in the minority about Sekiro, but I tried many times to let it change my mind and it didn't. It's definitely the game I don't like that I played the most.
And yes except a few consummable and a few cheese using limited prosthetic items (that you frustratingly stop trying the boss to slowly farm them if you wish to use them) there's only one or two objectively better way to fight each boss, I don't call that decision making. Most of the special moves just don't work against most bosses so i'd hardly call that making a choice too.
There's not much difference between "teaching" You to fight like sekiro and forcing you to fight like sekiro.
I prefer action RPGs over rhythm games.
Learning the correct serie of pressing parry and which attack you have to dodge is not really decision making, it's like learning a music sheet, you have no option, the best course of action has already been picked you just have to learn it.
@@naproupi I think you’re right that it’s a lot more restrictive than souls games, but I think you are missing how much freedom there is with the prosthetic tools and combat arts. Each has a very specific use that flows pretty well with the other tools and basic combat. It takes a lot of practice actually using the different combat arts to figure out what they’re good for but I’ve found it really rewarding once you do. Like I know a lot of people don’t like praying strikes but I’ve found it useful as a combo extender because it can stagger enemies out of their counter and they can only counter the third hit if you are using the exorcism version. I’ve found that it helps get in a little extra posture damage for the final push to the posture break. But a lot of people okay differently and prefer ichimonji for the high posture damage and restoring one’s own posture. Even with the basic sword combat there are two ways of playing the game; like a souls game where you only focus on the health bar and only attack when there in a large enough opening so that you can slowly whittle them down, or you can be more aggressive and never let their posture meter go down so that you get the instakill even without dealing that much damage. In general the game rewards the latter playstyle more, but there always has to be some emphasis on the health bar between posture recovers slower as health gets lower. So at least in my experience it’s not strictly one playstyle or the other, I end up doing something in the middle.
I can kind of understand the thing about the spirit emblems, but it’s relatively easy to stock up on them between bosses. Treat your money how you treat souls, spend often so you don’t have a massive stack on you when you go to fight a boss. It also helps that you can buy them every time you go to a sculptor idol to rest, so if you don’t keep draining your money by dying to a boss repeatedly without once buying spirit emblems, you shouldn’t run out even if you are using them all every attempt. Also, treat your items and spirit emblems like it’s a souls game, don’t waste them the first boss attempt, give yourself a few attempts to learn boss moves.
I get that you’ve tried to enjoy it, I just feel like it’s a really fun game if you understand and work with the mechanics. I won’t deny that it’s more limited than something like dark souls, you can’t customize your character nearly as much, but it’s not that much more limited. I can’t come up with a good example at the moment, but it’s not like a game where you must play the game exactly as intended, with certain mechanics being necessary to defeat certain enemies. Yes, you have to block and dodge is less universally useful, but in dark souls you have to dodge and blocking/parrying is less universally useful. The combat arts don’t provide a massive benefit but they are completely free to use and there’s not even a stamina cost or anything, just good timing so you don’t get hit in recovery frames. Some of the early combat arts have chip damage, nightjar slash reversal has an option for closing in with a combo opener and for retreating with a combo finisher, ichimonji has good posture damage and restores your own which gives you more leeway when blocking attacks, shadowrush closes in and deals damage through block while also setting you up for using a prosthetic tool like the firecrackers or the axe or even just regular attacks. I can’t stress enough how useful I’ve found combat arts, and I think they are probably the main place where you find freedom. I thought praying strikes are really cool, and even though other options might be overall better (I’ve heard a lot of people swear by shadowrush or ichimonji), I really like playing with praying strikes. I start off by trying to deal health damage and inflict poison if the enemy is vulnerable to it, then I try to be aggressive with sword combos followed by praying strikes. I use the charge attack to push an enemy away to get some distance especially when there are multiple enemies. It might just not be the type of game you like because it is more restrictive than dark souls, but I’d just like to recommend trying to find the freedom that does exist and see if you enjoy it
That's contradictive.
When I read your first three paragraphs, I thought Sekiro will be your favorite FromSoftware game, because those reasons are exactly the reasons I like Sekiro more than other FromSoftware games. And actually Sekiro does involve some strategies and creativities too, if you also incorporate the prosthetic arms and combat arts into your combat.
Also, Sekiro fight feels more cinematic because it is not the common "hit and run, slowly deplete boss HP until it's dead" combat in most video games including other FromSoftware games.
Evasive movement is cool, but it's so annoying how so many games fall back on just being invincible for a certain number of frames
"if every games had invincibility frames, dodge rolls, and lacked different means of evasion and defense and counters and dashes, we wouldn't have moments like these anymore" and then process to show fast paced spectacle focused action gameplay sequences.
Dude, I'm sorry, I do get what you mean, but you are biased and are missing the point.
Dashes and dodge rolls are functionally the exact same. Just that one is faster than the other.
souls style gameplay also has a lot of other means of evasion too.
For example, some attacks can be countered by just attack at the right timing to interrupt while dealing more damage due to it being a counter blow.
Parrying is a thing. It is actually easier than you might think. It's just that you need to put the time to practice it at first and have the patience for it. And once you get the hang of the timing in general, it becomes good for almost any enemy. The learning curve for parrying starts steep, and then becomes a relaxed slope that is almost an horizontal line.
Blocking can often blocking 100% of the incoming damage.
Guard Counters are also VERY good.
Back stepping and dashing can be also be good.
Just figuring out the range of attacks and their patterns can go a very long way to not get hit too much.
The different though is that pacing yourself and having good positioning and timing are key.
And this is very different from fast paced combat of the games that you clearly prefer and have a bias for.
It feels more like you have a problem with certain game flows and pacing, but that you tunnel visions on something that you are tired of seeing pointlessly in many games (dodge rolls).
If you had focused your arguments on why it shouldn't be added in any game just because and that when it is added it should be incorporated smartly either as dashes, flips, or with other special things that are in line with the philosophy of the game it is added in, and that it needs to be balanced, then I would've agreed with you.
But instead you went on rants and confounded issues, showed you bias, showed that you just want a different game style, etc.
I always felt the roll is anticlimactic as hell, it's good more games are implementing a "step-dodge" or similar
For Batman: Arkham Asylum, it's simple why not many have done that: it require work. Lot of works. You need to make fluid animations so that your character can react to enemies 360° around you; you need to have different animation depending on which attacks, from which angle and which enemies launch them; ... It has the difficulty of a QTE (nice visually) with the freedom of free roaming combat.
Yeah
The batman games do a pretty good job of illustrating how taxing producing a combat system that actually works at fighting groups of enemies, that so many games struggle at.
The solution is there, it just takes a ton of resources to implement, in a game that has basically one moveset for the character to use.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 Looks good, but gameplay... Zero though, zero skill required. It's like a mobile auto-combat thing. I like soulslike and fighting games because they require understand the enemies and put actual thought on the mechanics and your actions. Arkham combat style is far from being the solution, in fact it is the an example of why I dislike most AAA games: good graphics, fancy animations but no challenge.
@@SoulGuitarMetal
Yeah, I generally agree.
It gets an aspect of combat right that most other games struggle immensely with, but, the way it does it comes with tons of tradeoffs and game design around it.
I'm a souls fan, but I was pretty disappointed when Elden Ring released and it was just slightly better Dark Souls 3 combat. Especially since the previous game Fromsoft made was Sekiro, which had fantastic and varied combat. Hopefully Fromsoft's next souls game will have much improved combat that can (at least) rival Sekiro's.
OoT still has a Dodgeroll with I-frames
I'm fine with dodging in the right games, but overall, I think Dark Souls has unintentionally harmed the industry for the last decade. So many devs chasing mechanics from Souls without thinking about the nuances. This isn't really Fromsoft's fault, the blame is squarely on the hack frauds making games now a days. It's gotten to the point where I'm trying out poorly reviewed games that came out pre-2012 and actually enjoying them compared to new stuff since they have their own unique takes on gameplay mechanics.
funnily enough i think that kingdom hearts has the right idea for dodge rolls. dodge rolls are purely defensive while blocking lets you use powerful counters, but there are some unblockable attacks and the punishment for mistiming a block is greater than the punishment for mistiming a dodge. alternatively you can take the pso2ngs approach and just make the dodge act like a parry, sometimes in addition to an actual parry.
Kingdom hearts came out first and had a doge roll in the first one
devil may cry also did it before, only it was jumps + rolls with i frames
I think theres significant more depth to a dodge mechanic than a parry. A parry only tests your timing while a dodge forces you to think about your positioning. Theres a lot more potencial for strategic play than with a parry. For example if a knight is swinging his sword coming from your left, its better to dodge to the left, that being the direction the attack came from, so that you stay the least amount of time inside his hitboxes. Bosses can also be made with this in mind, forcing you to dodge a certain direction or employing diferent moves depending on positioning. As an example, a lot of bosses in er will actively punish you and employ harder moves to dodge if you play defensibly and try to dodge away from the boss instead of towards. Rolling just guves so much more potencial to your evasion options that i dont see a reason to get rid of it.
KH 1, KH 2 final mix+, Devil May cry, Ninja gaiden...All of then had Dodge roll before.
KH 2 without dodge roll was painful wouldn't have worked with all the bosses added on Final Mix+
Nioh 1 and 2 don't use Dodge roll, more like Dodge step or just Dash at full speed around.
Sekiro Doesn't have a dodge roll per say. Wake up roll when you get slammed.
I don't want at all to sound like an asshole but everyone complaining about it are the ones not trying anything else.
Finally someone with a brain.
Shields in souls games shut down a lot of enemies, parrying is meant to be a high risk high reward option not a different flavor of dodging, you can also strafe and space every attack. You can beat all these games without dodging and in a cool way if you really wanted to.
People that complain about "not enough options" are usually the ones with the most vanilla play style that go out of their way to not try anything.
ofc I'm just talking about souls but there's probably ppl like this for other games too
If you want a game that captures this sentiment you are describing perfectly, while still having the souls-style dodge, you want to look to Nioh. In those games, you have so many defensive options, it's incredible. You have a quickstep, a full on dodge roll, as well as three stances which can vary the timings of these dodges. You have multiple kinds of parries, you have both blocking and perfect blocking, which offer subtly different advantages. And in Nioh 2 you get a burst counter, which is a special kind of move that helps with unique red attacks, but also has added utility as a move to reposition, or an emergency block if you run out of Ki (stamina). I think outside of Sekiro, Nioh has the best action combat of ANY game, hands down. It has the crunchiness of souls, but also the style and variety of something like DMC. Hands down one of my favorite combat systems ever, and something you should look into if you want to see defensive mechanics at their finest.
Sorry dude, but you're just gonna have to ROLL with it.
Dodge rolls are a two fold action
It's a period of invincibility and a reposition.
A similar, swifter action would be a dash. The only game that comes to my mind it is a mod for doom called demonsteele. Your example (returnal) is similar.
I don't like parrying at all, hell i absolutely hate the arkham style of combat.
But i like shield/stamina management.
It's like a trifecta of damage mitigation.
Evasion - asassin/rouge style
Shielding - tanking style
Parrying - offense style
the difference is that in kh2 and 3 rolling is not a good option (atleast in critical and in the super bosses). You can't spam it or you'll die, that's the difference between kh and souls.
100% agree on this. Not every game needs a Dark Souls roll, but as time goes on, I see nothing but it in action/adventure games.
Another great example of a dodge without I-frames, is the one in Castlevania: Symphony of the night and Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night. It's a very simple back-dash/back-step that thrusts the player backwards 3-4 feet while retaining the direction they were looking, thus giving you an opportunity to counterattack. Unlike the Dark Souls roll we always see now, it manages to add to the combat, without -becoming- the combat.
Those are side scrollers. They are by default better because it's not 3d. 3d is better with dodge rolls just how 2d platformers are better than 3d because of not slowing the pace because of repositioning.
I don't really get why you feel like the backflip in Zelda is fine and the dodge roll isn't. It's basically just a dodge roll in the air. A combination of the back step (also in souls games to dodge) with the dodge roll.
I sense a bias there, that might not actually be about which you think is better.
edit: what? How is the dodge in Horizon not literally a dodge roll?
Because there are other options? (no idea, I haven't played it, but from the videos I've seen I don't see much of a difference, and I don't know what the options are)
Just because there are other options doesn't mean it's not the same dodge roll principle.
Sekiro has a dodge roll, but it is not the best option by far.
Dark Souls 1 also could easily be done without much dodge rolling (blocking was very good in it).
Parrying is also a much better option in souls games, just that it has a bigger learning curve.
But even for dodge rolling, you still need to learn the enemies' patterns. Otherwise, you will still take damage.
There are games that just copy the dodge roll and make it give way too much invulnerability, but souls games usually have a good balance for it and it's not actually always the best options and not everything is easily dodged with a dodge roll.
I think you're addressing a symptom of a larger issue. It's not that any given dodge mechanic is problematic, it's the existence of i-frames at all that's the problem. If the attack hits you on screen while you're dodging, you should take damage, no exceptions. Would teach players to use other tactics in their arsenal to deal with oncoming attacks.
Ever played Wizard of Legend?
Its funny because action games prior to souls game did this. Somehow the "hardest game ever" gave you the easier method out relative to its genre lol
No, it shouldn't
Stop imposing your own personal feelings on the ENTIRE gaming industry jfc
Why is everyone so fucking self important nowadays demanding that games should bend to their view
While I do love dodge rolls and don't agree with his view, he's just stating his personal opinion bro. He ain't forcing anyone to change or insulting anyone.
roll slop
This slow , clunky gameplay, where you are always locked in an animation needs to die too.
Responsiveness and a faster pace are the way to go
I miss the pre souls action game era of the 00s
Bro took 12 minutes to say absolutely nothing. The usefulness of dodge rolls peaked in 2016 in Dark Souls 3, and Fromsofware immediately strayed from that idea in their games since then. Sekiro literally kills you for pressing circle and saying that parrying and other defensive mechanics in something like Elden Ring aren't as effective is just a straight up skill issue, which I hate saying. The person that can consistently parry in Elden Ring, or any other souls like games for that matter, will clear an area or boss way faster than the person who chooses to dodge everything. Also this video spends it's entire duration with zero Monster Hunter footage at any time, because the existence of Monster Hunter's dodge roll completely overturns the entire argument. Monster Hunter has a "dodge roll," deliberate and committal combat animations, and a strong focus on complex and challenging boss fights, but is in no way a "souls like" because the dodging mechanic serves an entirely different purpose. Evasion in that game has little to do with invulnerability and everything to do with positioning, which is the dodge rolls primary function. Aside from being a staple in the genre that it helped define, the dodge roll is far from infectious in the industry, even among action adventure RPGs. A game including a dodge roll doesn't automatically make the game or the mechanic homogeneous to any other game that includes it just because of said mechanic. In order think so you have to blatantly ignore every other defense mechanic found in any given game
I don't agree with every point you made, but I would like to see more games with a system like Godhand or Sifu. That rewards you for timed dodging instead of just mashing i-frames. The problem is those games aren't as accessible. If Godhand was released today it would not sell well. When a game has a specific design conceit in mind (think Sekiro) people interpret that as limiting their options when the game is just trying to teach you how to properly play it.
The only solution I can see is to make blocking (in souls games at least) as useful as dodging if you spec for it. What's the point to blocking an attack just to take stamina drain, get your health chipped away, *and* possible suffer status effect buildup when for a bit more stamina you can reposition entirely and avoid any damage? These games got hard option select'd and everything is trending toward dodging. Bloodborne, Godhand, and Sifu are the only games I've played (and actually enjoyed) where dodging is skill-based and not a get out of jail free card. And no game does deflects/parries like Sekiro.
That's what makes Dark Souls such a wonderful game. Dodging isn't inherently the easier/better option in any given situation. Dark Souls is a chaotically designed game, and that's what helps give it so much charm. Some bosses are much easier if you use a great shield and just block everything. Lord Gywn is way harder to fight with dodge only because he's so aggressive vs just parrying him. Shields and blocking are often seen as a safer option as well, without needing to time anything, going into a fight you don't know is way easier with a shield up as you block to learn the attacks.
And Elden Ring did go that route. Build your spec for Greatshields and you can just hold block for most the of bosses in the game. Melania complicates things a bit, but that fight is trash as is. Even the dodge rollers need to just sit outside of her range and bait her A.I. into performing her easy attacks.
I much prefer dodging in Souls games anyway. They ask the player to be more active and engaged with the fight.
Didn't play Bloodborne, Godhand, or Sifu (never even heard of the latter two). But Sekiro was just a simon says rythem game, was really boring.
When you dodge roll in real life you aren't given invinciblity frames.
I think the scurrying dodge in Tomb Raider (2013) is perfect for evasion. A second button then follows up with a roll.
You realize these are video games right? Don't know what point you're trying to make saying that
As a souls vet i hate it
A sidestep makes so much more sense even for a guy in armor
2:27 music name?
Pretty ridiculous when you think about the Harry Potter kids rolling in the dirt to dodge attacks lol!
Dodge roll doesn't need to leave. You just need 4 other alternatives that are equally effective.
I know this might be some hot takes, but dark souls isn't truly "roll based". The only one where I think rolling is needed is dark souls 3, and elden ring/bloodborne also maybe requires them, but I haven't played them. In dark souls 1 and 2 it is entirely possible and sometimes easier to just block or tank through attacks with poise. The 4 kings from DS1 come to mind, but it's still possible on the "fast" bosses like artorias from the dlc. It's probably possible to do this in ER/ds3, it's just harder. Even in my ds3 soul level 1 run, blocking had it's uses against multiple enemies or un-reactable boss attacks. (oceiros, mainly)
Also to add on for kingdom hearts being the basis/originator for this roll epidemic, it's weird cause it has had a weird history with the mechanic. In kh1, it's possible to clash, basically your swing hits the enemy swing and depending on your weapon you would recover from the stagger faster, and if you had the riposte move equipped (I believe it was called counter slash) you could follow up with that move. This same hidden value also determined how good guarding was, so ultimately dodge rolls were generally more valuable cause the better weapons typically have weaker "guard" stats. Also in the level one run you have to dodge, as you unlock guarding by level up, so the dodge was definitely the more intended defensive move with the clash/guard being more niche and difficult to pull off but more rewarding under right conditions.
In the original kh2, the dodge roll ability doesn't exist, however a dash that moved really far but had few s also existed. They made the guard much better, and also added a spell that was basically a super guard that auto countered for you. They added the more traditional dodge roll into the "final mix" version which was JP exclusive until the ps3 releases on ward, and you can have the dash and the dodge roll at the same time, and they're on the same button. If you held it you got the dash, and if you tapped you got the roll, it was honestly really cool and intuitive.
From then on they more so stuck with the kh1 approach, with guarding being niche but helpful against certain moves, and the dodge being the more general use defense move, and a few twists for guarding every now and then. Kh3 then went back to 50/50 split, but with the dlc guarding was generally better cause if timed right would apply an insane multiplier to your riposte damage.
Anyway, a game that I think did dodging in a cool way is dead cells. It's a sorta vanilla roll, but because of how the bosses/enemies movesets work, dodging is kind of a dedicated anti projectile measure. Parrying is really helpful for bosses, and against general mobs you should be killing them pretty fast to the point of them usually not getting to do much, with the roll being a dedicated Iframe repositioning option in those scenarios. Basically you're only rolling if you fucked up or you're fighting a boss with no shield. Usually jumping is far better to actually dodge general enemy moves, as most of them are relatively land locked.
also also, another cool game when it comes to dodging kinda is lies of P. It's a very fromsoft-y game, mostly taking cues mechanically from sekiro with a hint of bloodborne.(allegedly, idk haven't played) But in LoP, you have a very sekiro-esque parry that will add stun/stance damage to every enemy. Dodging also is an option, but as it gains you no momentum against bosses, and is less stamina efficient, it's typically not your main option with bosses. It has some relative distance on it though, and some Iframes, making it nice for jumping back and healing against enemies. Also it lets some of the slower weapons get an extra opening, giving it some pretty niche value in bosses sometimes.
edit: Lies of P also has an hp regain system with guarding. If you guard, you take reduced damage, but you can earn it back if you attack quick enough, and later on parrying will also regain this "rally" hp. This gives you a relatively huge window for error with parries, while if you solely dodge and mess up you take the raw, unmodified damage and have to heal it back.
For reference, ER weakened rolling by reducing the distance you roll, making it easier to still get hit by an attack if you are careless about the direction you rolled in. Jumping is also super useful as an alternative for AoE and sweeping attacks, but again heavily direction-dependent, and simple running gets you around faster than rolling repeatedly if you need to reposition quickly to avoid an AoE attack you can't jump over. Rolling can still solve all your problems if you time and position it perfectly, but it's far safer to use the other options, and you get to counter-attack a lot more quickly to boot.
Something I feel you missed in the video was witch time from Bayonetta. Bullet time appeared in games well before Bayo 1, but that game is definitely the most influential when it comes to BT attached to dodges. GoW and BotW definitely take inspiration from this, and you can find a handful of other games that reward near misses with opportunities to attack. Discussions concerning dodging feel incomplete without mentioning Bayonetta.
What did gow take inspiration from? I heard there's a rune that does that, but that's hardly a good example personally.
well,you certainly have some points
NO
What you should really be griping about is enemies that can’t hurt each other, and can even phase through each other. Ruining positioning and favoring numbers.
There’s also hitbox stupidity that everyone does. Most game have an all or nothing system. Like if a sword hits you even well past the apex of swing, full damage. Or worse yet, the handle of a weapon. Like and axe or spear, it’s dumb. We got bigger issues.
The dodge roll sucks because it means the enemy animations can only ever be as fast as the average roll speed. It limits design.
Something you may want to check out: in Wo Long, parry and dodge are the same button. Perfect dodge is essentially a parry.
I think regardless of the specific defensive mechanic a game relies on, it can get stale when it's implemented poorly. Souls games have always had very forgiving i-frame mechanics with their rolls while also doubling as a quick reposition that could counteract the relatively slow movement. However, as the games progressed they started relying on execution of more frequent rolls because people skilled at the game realized how safe they actually were. Eventually this led to rolls being so frequent without any other similar risk to reward defensive options available to use. Leading to the middle of the road risk/Reward gameplay loop of Avoid damage > counterattack being very roll centric.
Having something like a Deflect that's situationally more or less safe than a roll, but has the same overall Risk/Reward ratio would help alleviate this. While something like parrying and blocking can also help it's important to note that these have different levels of Risk/reward. Meaning they won't be used in the same situations or as frequently due to being too risky or not optimal reward wise. In the case of blocking it's more so a low risk resource exchange limited by your stamina more than rolling is. Meant to make learning patterns less trial and error or to avoid taking risks in situations where the player isn't completely confident in going for something like a parry or roll. Parrying is usually on the opposite side of the spectrum meaning it won't be used as often in any game with enemies that actually have meaningful variation in their attack patterns.
Deflection (usually triggered during a short window in a game's block mechanic) is in a similar middle ground to rolling. It tends to cost about the same resource as rolling would on average (Usually varying based on the attack), and some games will add some kind of weaker counter option or damage inflicted on Deflection success. Making it give a similar level of reward to a Roll. Some games will have moves that can't be blocked or deal a substantial about of stamina/health damage when blocked (Even if most weaker attacks basically do nothing when deflected). Leading to it being situationally more or less efficient than Rolling would be due to having a similar timing window and resource cost. The main difference being the options the player has afterwards and which attacks are more optimal to use Deflection or Rolling against.
If implemented properly Rolling can be really good, but if it's the only middle of the road Risk/Reward defensive option, the game its in will become centered around it. Leading to it becoming overdone and stale. Like it has in many Souls-likes and the more recent souls games where you need to avoid 2 to 5 times before attacking a couple of times over and over. Dark souls 3 was especially bad due to the low cost of rolls and amount of enemy combos. Elden Ring is worse in that regard, but their implementation of guard counters, jumping, and consumables mitigated it to be about the same overall. Even if they missed the mark on making those other defensive options equally as versatile as rolling.
There are other ways to add more middle of the road risk/reward defensive options like rooted 50/50 Avoids, hyper armor, and repositioning tools. However, something like deflection would probably be the easiest to implement because the overall cost/risk/reward ratio can be the same without much effort. There's a game called Sifu that combined the idea of rooted 50/50 Avoids with slightly tighter to time deflection mechanics to make the defensive gameplay more engaging. Some attacks can be punished better by avoiding and others by deflecting. So the defensive gameplay isn't overly reliant on just one of them. It's not implemented the best it could be, but it's significantly better than just having only one of them. Add a low risk but high resource drain option like blocking and a high risk/reward option like parrying to this system and it'd be hard to get bored of. So long as the enemies aren't too predictable or too unpredictable.
No. I-frames are a core aspect of many advanced combat systems from Korean MMOs to Japanese Fighting Games.
WIth this mechanic, I'm honestly a bit lost on what I would want out of it myself (removal, evolution, or adaption)
I only played Dark Souls myself for all of 2 - 3 hours and dismissed the game as I was just not really enjoying it (trust me, just call it a skill issue)
The dodge roll was one of the main reasons I didn't enjoy it because of how it looked primarily -- only made the game look and feel slow and clunky.
Most recent game I've played with a dodge roll mechanic -- Super Smash Bros. Ultimate -- lmao.
For a fighting/party game, it's pretty harsh with it.
Dodging while moving have less i-frames and more cooldown than dodging in place.
Repeated dodges are performed slower and slower so lesser i-frames and more cooldown to a point where it becomes completely useless.
However, it is a game meant for going up against people competitively so they had to force other options.
Of course, it doesn't permanently continue nerfing the dodge roll -- so long as you wait an ample time to "recharge" (without a visible timer) it back to normal.
So more likely you are spending time using your other movement options to 'get the fuck out the way" or opting for shielding/parrying/tanking attacks.
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Terms of thoughts throughout this video:
I never played Kingdom Hearts (or rather 1 - 2 hours of KH1, had lost my PS4 somewhere along the way so go me), but don't know how Kingdom Hearts 2 "does it right" either.
I've only seen speedruns and a decent amount of let's plays but I guess in the varied options is my best guess.
You have more defensive options available to you then just to roll which are blocking, parrying, and countering -- along with a bunch of other moves that provide you with i-frames in the midst of the attack to utilize those as well. I want to presume that being the reason but idk.
Ocarina of Time, I just like its mention -- as it wasn't a matter of abusing i-frames -- just "get the fuck out the way of the attack".. or shielding if possible.
Uncharted 2 (and 3 just to say because I played that one more), it was mostly good for dodging bullets if anything. It's an absolute pain in multiplayer fire fights after all.
It gave no i-frames, but it did feel like it dropped the accuracy of NPC shots by just enough so that you can retreat to the next cover.
Newbies probably had trouble aiming at you when first starting the multiplayer.
idk how I exactly feel about the point with God of War at 4:55.
Mainly because I don't know how other difficulties aside from hard tackled it but it was no catch-all for me with dodge rolling; In fact, I outright got punished hard despite evading an attack.
That one, much like me summising KH2, I did like GoW4 because there was the quick strafe (which also had its own attack chain depending on direction), the dodge roll, or like mentioned -- the shield counter. Though you could also just, "fuck out the way" since some attacks weren't just door-to-door hitboxes one after the other.
I do get that it is very spammable in controlled situations (controlled as in not dealing with multiple enemies or bosses with attacks/mechanics designed specifically to counter dodge rolls, like Valkyries), however.
I actually DID go on autopilot for Batman: Arkham Asylum -- and I do the same for Spider-Man. I can't say I enjoy the combat for the mechanics but more so enjoy it for its spectacle. To me they both do fundamentally the same thing but as you best put it, really makes you "feel like you're Batman/Spider-Man" with how it looks. Then again, I didn't play on Hard Mode where you DIDN'T have a button prompt in your face of PRESS (Y)/(TRIANGLE) to not die while you're mashing square, so that possibly made all the difference in feeling.
With 5:58, I think the problem with parries for me.. not only were it strict, not only did it require a shield -- but some attacks just outright COULDN'T be parried anyways. It's really unfortunate when it exists but it's a self-imposed challenge to NOT have it.
6:21 -- Dark Souls didn't appeal to me but Sekiro definitely did. Dodging wasn't too strong tho blocking/parrying was taking center stage more; Though you were still forced to dodge some attacks as they were unblockable... or was it that the timing was tighter for some moves? Unfortunately I don't remember.
As for your Different Approaches, I got one: I played mostly Monster Hunter Rise.
The game's dodge roll seems pretty played straight until the amount of i-frames is practically LAUGHABLE compared to Souls games. It's more like your previous examples where the rolls are more like repositioning yourself so that the next attack doesn't smack you hard rather than a get out of jail card.
However... I am a casual bitch in this game and it has skills -- Evade Extender and Evade Window which can effectively make the game more.. Soulslike with its dodges to put it.
Though, the game -- depending on the weapon -- has different approaches to how much you use it.
Some have you shielding, parrying, countering, tanking, or just "fuck it" and escape. Technically some weapons you rarely use it at all because it is more of a distance based weapon as opposed to up close and personal.
Metal Gear Rising is up there with Batman: Arkham and Spider-Man. The block/parry system was just SO busted that it really did just make you busted. Option Select'd (when one action in-game covers multiple scenarios) by just constantly flicking the control stick while I attacked in some cases so either I slashed the shit out of them or I blocked their faster attack. Hindsight, maybe not the best of mechanics to me BUT... the spectacle of the games much like the other two pretty much invalidated me really thinking about all that dumb shit and going annihilation mode just like my Dynasty Warriors games.
Rest of the vid onward I got nothing extra to say but I will add that I 1000% agree with "why do they end up LOOKING the same?"
Reminds me of different issue with how most triple-A games have been doing the "our pause/status screen went for a Controller is Mouse interface" and everything looking DAMN near the same.
Oh but the mouse is SLOW as shit so what should be imo, 1 minute of navigation maybe less can turn into 3 - 4 minutes as the "mouse" as to needlessly drag its ass from point A to point B over and over.
Which I get the reason behind it as another thing standardized in the industry but holyyyyy shit man, that topic I bet has warranted videos somewhere if I bothered to look.
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Hey thanks for checking the video out! As a lifelong Smash fan that’s probably been my first exposure to it, but I think its use there actually dates back to earlier 2D Kirby games, which makes sense given Smash’s director created Kirby. I really like its usage in Smash! Useful for evading attacks but like you said, it can’t be relied on entirely. It’s treated as a tool and not as a crutch, ESPECIALLY in competitive play.
I’ve played MH Rise, that would have been great to mention too! The mobility of the wirebug is so addicting for 3D combat, I hope they keep it for future entries in the series.
And yeah I do like some spectacle in 3D action games but mainly I just like variety. Also on your last point I couldn’t agree more and I know exactly what you’re talking about. In fact, I might just make that as a video in the near future.
I think I remember seeing that “slow cursor” style movement first in Destiny (at least among mainstream current releases) and it’s in everything now. God of War, Free to Play battle royales, Gotham Knights - I’m definitely gonna make a video in the future examining it and the use of it in recent games (and mainly WHY I think it’s becoming more popular now, although honestly I couldn’t really say for sure, I’ll mainly just be speculating and spitballing)
Sounds like you'd like Lies of P
Godhand duck/weave and sidestep dodging was so good haven't seen other game with a similar system
In defense for God of War the dodge roll is 2 things, a sidestep that doesn’t take too long to recover from your animation but i-frames aren’t long either and the range of your dodge is a lot small, and the Roll by tapping dodge twice makes you dodge roll which takes a lot to recover from but with long travel and i-frames.
I think dodge rolls and defensive mechanics are really more than dodge rolls (you have ninja gaiden and dmc which are more focused on positioning ) and there are many other old action games that mix dodging and parrying and positioning , however however I think people have been mislead to think that dodge rolls are the most important thing souls combat
even in elden ring , actually there is a stronger thing than it : tracking manipulation and positioning , the tracking in these games is very clean even with bosses that are crazy in their combos , you can strafe and do directional rolls where you can just skip most of the attacks without spam rolling
this vid is a great example of the potential and how dodge rolls are really misleading in their use in the community , you could skip until tip 4 .
ruclips.net/video/fo4dXJmd1cQ/видео.html
yes, well said.
One of the issues with blocking in soulsborne games is that aside from some footsoldiers, enemies in the game have monstrous strength- If you block normally, you get half your health taken away, or staggered if your not wearing armor with high poise. Whenever I see high level runs of the game, people just get rid of their armor cause it doesn't mean anything. You either go full Havel "the rock" johnson and tank everything with a great weapon, or wear nothing and dodge roll/parry everything. there's no in between.
I see those other things as kind of like other versions of the dodge roll. I do think the evolution in action games will be to have other types of mobility options in addition to rolling. In ways I like Ocarina of Time's mobility options even more than Dark Souls, since you had the side step, back flip, and the roll (even though it didn't give invuln frames, it still had some utility like rolling underneath Ganon to reach his weakpoint). Sekiro puts more emphasis on parrying, which helps it stand out. Elden Ring also lets you jump with the press of a button. So simple yet was very handy for combat as well as traversing the environment, the thing the souls games always needed and kinda makes it the best by default due to that alone IMO.
Just going to leave this one here and move on. Dodge rolling has existed in games long before the likes of demon souls, or even kingdom hearts. While i can't say exactly where the Invincibility frames dodging first appeared, I know it was at-least 1998. As it was in the PS1 game Tenchu Stealth Assassin (a game i just recently replayed). If we're excluding i frames, then we can include things like Zelda OOT (also released 1998) Or even Super Mario 64 released in 96. While this is not the end all be all time line of when it first showed up, i can at-least confirm it's existed for far longer, and the souls games really wasn't what popularized it.
While I can appreciate your side not liking a system that is honestly over used much like bullet time slow down when the matrix movies were getting traction. You can still choose to not used the systems you don't like. Sure some games make it more difficult than others to avoid using something like dodge rolling, but you all importantly can still choose to not dodge roll. Heck best example are games like dark souls with the equip loads basically making dodge rolling for I frames completely useless.
Thank you for coming to my Nerd Talk, and have a fantastic day.
Edit: Ender
OOT had s; it's just that they're in the endlag, making it less viable in combat than other options