Dude I freaking cherish the work you are doing. I have this deep intellectual itch to better understand my favorite medium. And you are truly the only one on RUclips who is doing that for me. I think I love you dude. Please don't ever leave me.
Thanks for the kind words Jordan! Its awesome that there are people who share my passion for analyzing games, and I hope to continue making videos for the foreseeable future!
He's not the only one on youtube making videos that give a deeper understanding and analysis on games and game design. Errant Signal, Game Maker's Toolkit, Strat Edgy, to name just a few, all have videos that examine in depth various aspects of design through the lens of many different games. Even Noclip, which makes behind the scenes documentaries about different games and developers, includes a ton of information about the reasoning used and processes chosen for designing their games. I highly suggest you look into these other youtubers
A belief that a lot of people first getting into systemic game development tend to have is that to have systemic gameplay you just need to add a bunch of systems, and then emergent gameplay will... well... emerge. But there needs to be structure to how that emergence is handled, and push towards it. The BotW example you have in the video is a good one, mainly because I have actually heard some people getting into design talking about it like it just have systems where gameplay is created on its own which is like... not true :) Just because there's a lot of possible emergent gameplay through system interactions doesn't mean that areas, puzzles and whatnot didn't have a specific design - there was specific thought put into things, and the systems that are in place allow to widen the possibility space.
Great Points, and your comment got me thinking about another distinction worth making, that being the distinction between intentional and unintentional emergence. In Jesse schells, Ernest adams and Micheal sellers books, they talk about second order design, which is the deliberate manipulation of rules and mechanics at a lower level to alter the dynamics of play. Colloquially though, many people understand emergence as a random and haphazard process, a product of systems extending far beyond the reach of designer intentionality. Obviously no one can predict the emergence of any given system, that''s the nature of emergence, but it seems worth pointing out that the process is iterative, a process of refining and playtesting systems as they generate interesting outcomes. Maybe in the future we can examine this using examples from games and gdc talks. Thanks for the comment and feedback !
@@thegameoveranalyser4835 You know, Farlands point comes from a realistic point of view of being the actual Game Designer creating a game, you have to put thought into what would and could be possible from the emergent gameplay of your systems. The idea comes from the fact that whatever would be the derived product of something, it would not stray away from the "genetic structure" of that thing e.g 2 objects that do not include a flying property can never be put together in anyway that would make an emergent object from both fly; this relates to a type of Emergence which called Weak Emergence. In fact, this is it, this is the way Game Designers think when creating those systems. The "Novel" emergent gameplay you describe is actually a high level thing, because at its core, a Methodological Reductionist approach could describe the properties of that "Novel" Gameplay via the breakdown of its systemic constituents. All these just becomes fuzzy because of the list of the unknown numbers of player's permutable actions, and that's where the high level intentional or unintentional emergence design comes, but like I said, at its core, it is within the confines of the "genetic structure" of these systems and that is the thought put in by actual Game Designers when creating.
I picked emergence in games as a topic in an uni presentation and needed some material. I'm so glad this was the first thing I found, this is the best piece I've ever seen on the topic and the amounts of references you linked will be a massive help. Thank you!
reading rules of play and googled "emergent systems" to see if i could find some more definitions. then noticed i was already subscribed and remembered your old videos, good to see your still making videos
Currently working on my first systemic game and this video is a great resource for knowing how to approach it in the first place. I haven't heard of complexity theory or the MDA framework before. I'm excited to know I have so much to learn. Thanks for a great essay!
"In ways that very few can even conceptualize today." Challenge accepted! ~Signed, an over ambitious new game dev that's been wanting and studying on and off how to make games for thirty years.
Mercenaries was so immersive to me. AI fights on its own, victors in skirmishes are dynamic, attacks on bases play out differently based on tactics in approach, player choice changes faction dominance and where they populate the world.
What a thorough video! Really went through the topic. It was great to see mention videos, I'd previously seen, and then having you interweave them! Now I just need to work out how to actually implement some of the ideas in code...
Hey, i just wanted to give you some props for doing your research. I felt strangely nostalgic looking at this because it really sums up a lot of the game design conversations I have been in since I started working as a game design teacher at gotland university (currently uppsala university campus gotland) around 2004. You have made a very thorough introduction to this field that makes it available to your viewers in a very effective way. Thank you, I might refer my future students to this specific video for a coherent summary of the various perspectives that they need in order get the most out of our systems design courses.
Its funny you made this Ive been going in depth with research in emergent gameplay and following tutorials from board to bits to make a basic system, one of the big issues I’ve been having trouble understanding is how the emergence is actually programmed like legend of Zelda chemistry engine or far-cry and red dead 2 or more impressively dwarf fortress and the sim games
You bring up a valid point. This video and channel in general goes over design concepts and conceptual language and not the implementation of systems. Maybe in the future I'll try and incorporate programming insights into my videos if there is an audience for it. Thanks for the feedback.
The Game Overanalyser oh yeah i can understand that i don’t want to tell you or you tubers to teach these kind of things but it’d be cool if unity centered channels or something can teach how to actually implement these kinds of designs if that makes sense
This is a glimpse into very fundamental knowledge of game design.. It completely change my view or game design.. i thought it was pure artistic subjective creativity that depends only on the imagination and experience of the game designer.. it's not.
Amazing video. Something also dealing with emergence in games is how metagame develops in online games. Dota is my favorite example and the one that got me interested in complexity theory.
Sometimes youre frantically searching youtube for a specific video, that you haven't seen, don't know if it exists and you just vaguely know what its about. And sometimes, like this time, some absolute hero delivers exactly what you want.
In this video its -Emergence Phenomena where the whole has properties that the parts that comprise a system don''t have -strategic The depth afforded by the rules of a system -systemic How rules combine in a system -narrative The meaning generated by the rules of a system -System -a structure with interconnected parts -Complexity - The Number of rules and procedures a system has -Depth The density of the possibility space generated by rules. tic tac toe---chess---Go -Mechanics dynamics aesthetics A framework to broaden our understanding of the reasons we play -Vertical arrangement Will Wrights conception of layers in a system -Synergies When elements in a system work together -Feedback loops Positive or negative -Engines Being able to store or use a resource -Economies having a dynamic system where resources can be traded for one another _civilization -Ecologies Having a dynamic system that sustains itself though reinforcing loops Eve online -Sources -Mechanisms that generate resource -Sinks Mechanisms that depletes resource -Converters Mechanism that converts resources -Traders Mechanism that enable trade between resources -Intentionality Acting with foresight and deliberate strategy( non reactive) -affordances Structures in levels that communicate their purpose intrinsically -procedural rhetoric How rules and systems make arguments These terms are spread across books and talks, but the sources are in the description.
Here's an emergent story for you... Every time you cut to those guys playing Go, I felt like we were cutting BACK to them, still trying to figure out their next move. Come on! Make a move already!
20:26 Elden Ring fails at this so hard. Unlike in the previous FS games, it won't let you kill most NPCs, and when it does, it makes sure to give you all of their wares and drops and sometimes even an item that lets you continue their quest without them. Their lives mean nothing. Killing them means nothing. As you say, "Being able to interact with the world and change its course imbues the player with the sense that their actions mean something." That's why I feel nothing for ER's characters.
Great way to show emargence? Play Go with someone who is good. Ruless can be writen on one page. Yet this game is so complex NO COMPUTER MAY WIN IT. Aka we do not have a proof by doing it that this game is turing compleate. This game is too complex for computers to comprehend but the rules are simple. All 0 players game are more or less simple but have amazing emergent properties. Heck, one game really caught my attencion as it is more or less showing that player made proper martial art/skill trea in it that is emergent... and it keeps expanding. I am talking about Rumble btw.
![BAK Jay - Find Out (For Your Love) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/10FJO_XBCvY/mqdefault.jpg)
Dude I freaking cherish the work you are doing. I have this deep intellectual itch to better understand my favorite medium. And you are truly the only one on RUclips who is doing that for me. I think I love you dude. Please don't ever leave me.
Have you met "Errant Signal"?
Thanks for the kind words Jordan! Its awesome that there are people who share my passion for analyzing games, and I hope to continue making videos for the foreseeable future!
He's not the only one on youtube making videos that give a deeper understanding and analysis on games and game design.
Errant Signal, Game Maker's Toolkit, Strat Edgy, to name just a few, all have videos that examine in depth various aspects of design through the lens of many different games. Even Noclip, which makes behind the scenes documentaries about different games and developers, includes a ton of information about the reasoning used and processes chosen for designing their games. I highly suggest you look into these other youtubers
@@apictureoffunction indeed, but do they also put academic theories into their essays?
Anyway, thanks for the recommendations!
So far the best essay on the topic, that explores it not just from a game design perspective, but maths & academic theories as well
A belief that a lot of people first getting into systemic game development tend to have is that to have systemic gameplay you just need to add a bunch of systems, and then emergent gameplay will... well... emerge. But there needs to be structure to how that emergence is handled, and push towards it. The BotW example you have in the video is a good one, mainly because I have actually heard some people getting into design talking about it like it just have systems where gameplay is created on its own which is like... not true :) Just because there's a lot of possible emergent gameplay through system interactions doesn't mean that areas, puzzles and whatnot didn't have a specific design - there was specific thought put into things, and the systems that are in place allow to widen the possibility space.
Great Points, and your comment got me thinking about another distinction worth making, that being the distinction between intentional and unintentional emergence. In Jesse schells, Ernest adams and Micheal sellers books, they talk about second order design, which is the deliberate manipulation of rules and mechanics at a lower level to alter the dynamics of play. Colloquially though, many people understand emergence as a random and haphazard process, a product of systems extending far beyond the reach of designer intentionality. Obviously no one can predict the emergence of any given system, that''s the nature of emergence, but it seems worth pointing out that the process is iterative, a process of refining and playtesting systems as they generate interesting outcomes.
Maybe in the future we can examine this using examples from games and gdc talks. Thanks for the comment and feedback !
@@thegameoveranalyser4835 You know, Farlands point comes from a realistic point of view of being the actual Game Designer creating a game, you have to put thought into what would and could be possible from the emergent gameplay of your systems. The idea comes from the fact that whatever would be the derived product of something, it would not stray away from the "genetic structure" of that thing e.g 2 objects that do not include a flying property can never be put together in anyway that would make an emergent object from both fly; this relates to a type of Emergence which called Weak Emergence. In fact, this is it, this is the way Game Designers think when creating those systems. The "Novel" emergent gameplay you describe is actually a high level thing, because at its core, a Methodological Reductionist approach could describe the properties of that "Novel" Gameplay via the breakdown of its systemic constituents. All these just becomes fuzzy because of the list of the unknown numbers of player's permutable actions, and that's where the high level intentional or unintentional emergence design comes, but like I said, at its core, it is within the confines of the "genetic structure" of these systems and that is the thought put in by actual Game Designers when creating.
Yeh, but then games like goat simulator throw that on it's head.
I picked emergence in games as a topic in an uni presentation and needed some material. I'm so glad this was the first thing I found, this is the best piece I've ever seen on the topic and the amounts of references you linked will be a massive help. Thank you!
That was condensed with knowledge! Great job on connecting the various sources. I have learned so much. Thank you!
reading rules of play and googled "emergent systems" to see if i could find some more definitions. then noticed i was already subscribed and remembered your old videos, good to see your still making videos
This was well researched. you deserve more views and subscribers!
Thanks Kaizen!
Currently working on my first systemic game and this video is a great resource for knowing how to approach it in the first place. I haven't heard of complexity theory or the MDA framework before. I'm excited to know I have so much to learn. Thanks for a great essay!
nice, that was a lot packed into this video! I'll have to check out those books.
Profound video, I never considered System Thinking in games, thank you
You should consider writing a book on these topics at some point.
"In ways that very few can even conceptualize today."
Challenge accepted!
~Signed, an over ambitious new game dev that's been wanting and studying on and off how to make games for thirty years.
Really thank you! You're putting words on things I struggled to explain for weeks
Mercenaries was so immersive to me. AI fights on its own, victors in skirmishes are dynamic, attacks on bases play out differently based on tactics in approach, player choice changes faction dominance and where they populate the world.
What a thorough video! Really went through the topic. It was great to see mention videos, I'd previously seen, and then having you interweave them! Now I just need to work out how to actually implement some of the ideas in code...
wow... these videos are good, I'm getting flooded with concepts and ideas... I'm gonna have to keep coming back and rewatching these.
😌
I love how you give so much further reading for after I finish the vid.
This was an excellent video! Best of luck with your future endeavours!
Hey, i just wanted to give you some props for doing your research. I felt strangely nostalgic looking at this because it really sums up a lot of the game design conversations I have been in since I started working as a game design teacher at gotland university (currently uppsala university campus gotland) around 2004. You have made a very thorough introduction to this field that makes it available to your viewers in a very effective way. Thank you, I might refer my future students to this specific video for a coherent summary of the various perspectives that they need in order get the most out of our systems design courses.
Searched for "emergence game design" after reading Joris Dormans.
Thank you and have a good one.
Its funny you made this Ive been going in depth with research in emergent gameplay and following tutorials from board to bits to make a basic system, one of the big issues I’ve been having trouble understanding is how the emergence is actually programmed like legend of Zelda chemistry engine or far-cry and red dead 2 or more impressively dwarf fortress and the sim games
You bring up a valid point. This video and channel in general goes over design concepts and conceptual language and not the implementation of systems. Maybe in the future I'll try and incorporate programming insights into my videos if there is an audience for it. Thanks for the feedback.
The Game Overanalyser oh yeah i can understand that i don’t want to tell you or you tubers to teach these kind of things but it’d be cool if unity centered channels or something can teach how to actually implement these kinds of designs if that makes sense
@@youngknight5589 you can implement the Systems built by rules inside Godot or Unreal Engine 4.
@@magnuscritikaleak5045 oh ive been studying and using unity
Thanks for these videos. This specific topic is my focus for my current board game project. You're helping make it more clear.
This is a glimpse into very fundamental knowledge of game design.. It completely change my view or game design.. i thought it was pure artistic subjective creativity that depends only on the imagination and experience of the game designer.. it's not.
Very very interesting, thank you for this video !
A truly great video. Thank you, dear creator :)
Amazing video. Something also dealing with emergence in games is how metagame develops in online games. Dota is my favorite example and the one that got me interested in complexity theory.
This video was super great. Connecting many thoughts I've had for a while. Thank you.
Sometimes youre frantically searching youtube for a specific video, that you haven't seen, don't know if it exists and you just vaguely know what its about. And sometimes, like this time, some absolute hero delivers exactly what you want.
So is there a list of systemic design terminology?
In this video its
-Emergence Phenomena where the whole has properties that the parts that comprise a system don''t have
-strategic The depth afforded by the rules of a system
-systemic How rules combine in a system
-narrative The meaning generated by the rules of a system
-System -a structure with interconnected parts
-Complexity - The Number of rules and procedures a system has
-Depth The density of the possibility space generated by rules. tic tac toe---chess---Go
-Mechanics dynamics aesthetics A framework to broaden our understanding of the reasons we play
-Vertical arrangement Will Wrights conception of layers in a system
-Synergies When elements in a system work together
-Feedback loops Positive or negative
-Engines Being able to store or use a resource
-Economies having a dynamic system where resources can be traded for one another _civilization
-Ecologies Having a dynamic system that sustains itself though reinforcing loops Eve online
-Sources -Mechanisms that generate resource
-Sinks Mechanisms that depletes resource
-Converters Mechanism that converts resources
-Traders Mechanism that enable trade between resources
-Intentionality Acting with foresight and deliberate strategy( non reactive)
-affordances Structures in levels that communicate their purpose intrinsically
-procedural rhetoric How rules and systems make arguments
These terms are spread across books and talks, but the sources are in the description.
@@thegameoveranalyser4835 Excellent! Thank you.
Here's an emergent story for you... Every time you cut to those guys playing Go, I felt like we were cutting BACK to them, still trying to figure out their next move. Come on! Make a move already!
Peeps, please, I need to know what the game at 3:26 is called. I remember it from my childhood on Flash games and have been looking for it for ages!
I remembered image searching is a thing, it's called fl0w
Great video. Thank you.
You have no idea how much i learnt from that! How can I help you in return
If youre gonna be called overanalyzer ya gotta say how many combinations of go there are
whats the song at 8:00
20:26 Elden Ring fails at this so hard. Unlike in the previous FS games, it won't let you kill most NPCs, and when it does, it makes sure to give you all of their wares and drops and sometimes even an item that lets you continue their quest without them. Their lives mean nothing. Killing them means nothing. As you say, "Being able to interact with the world and change its course imbues the player with the sense that their actions mean something." That's why I feel nothing for ER's characters.
Great way to show emargence?
Play Go with someone who is good. Ruless can be writen on one page. Yet this game is so complex NO COMPUTER MAY WIN IT. Aka we do not have a proof by doing it that this game is turing compleate. This game is too complex for computers to comprehend but the rules are simple.
All 0 players game are more or less simple but have amazing emergent properties.
Heck, one game really caught my attencion as it is more or less showing that player made proper martial art/skill trea in it that is emergent... and it keeps expanding.
I am talking about Rumble btw.
? An ai beat a go champion in like 2016…
@@neetfreek9921 And it's since been found that the AI doesn't have that good an understanding, as some particularly bad moves can trip it up.
Chess bots tend to lose to amateur players cuz they CAN'T deal with emergent behaviors.