I know you and Bradley Hughes teach pretty much the same "4:30" path and general concepts. I notice he doesn't necessarily talk about a wider stance through the bag to accommodate what you call, keeping your club back and allowing your legs to start the swing. What are your thoughts on this? He does a lot of impact bag too.....do you agree with that?
The wider stances in the past were designed for more of a lateral move to initiate transition. The more recent trend has been narrower stances...both can work, but I prefer the old way because it helps delay acceleration of the club if you use the lateral move to delay torso opening or rotation which aid in holding shaft flex into the strike.
@@lagpressure That's what I have observed in your videos, and it makes sense! I would assume one could still do the impact bag and the drills, etc.? Bradley also seems to not be too concerned about the backswing, so to speak. You seem to emphasize the shoulder turn and the hands/backswing being not to around, so just curious.
I like the concept of flatter tends to have your misses straighter with more of a trajectory issue. Excellent concept. Great ball strikers, Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods, Fred Couples, Sam Snead, Johnny Miller. These guys had upright style swings. Although Tiger did rework his to be flatter after 2001 and then more upright again later on. All the long drive guys try to be upright and taller at the top of the backswing. They intentionally try to increase the distance between their hands and the ball and use their bodies to squat and explode back up through the ball using the ground. They are approaching 150+ mph clubhead speed.
I still like your other explanation where you argue that the face rotation on a flat angle has less effect on open/closed and more on loft angle. . . so misses go straighter. I keep wondering if that would hold true for putting as well?
@@lagpressure so that was the reason for the toe being raised so much. I always just thought it was some quirky thing he did probably learned as a kid.
@@tomnelson8515 He could have flattened out the putter to match, but makes no difference really because there is no loft on the club (putter) which would send the ball left with loft. I've done the same thing essentially with my putter, but I did flatten it out for visual reasons. My putter sits at about 56 degree lie angle.. flatter than any putter you will ever find. Really helps keep the ball online... so I can focus more on pace.
@@Jeffersonokay No, I bent it flat.. so it sits like my other clubs. It's now a golf club.. not a "putter"... I treat is as any other club..round grip and everything. Much better than making golf "two games"
Great stuff. General curiosity but doesn't Trevino's backswing fall more into a rerouting trype of swing where he does start a little upright? Wanted to hear your thoughts on this.
Start with flatter lie angles. Get the torso more erect to encourage a flatter torso and shoulder rotation. Backswing path doesn't matter much... watch the most recent video I posted to explain. I have videos all over the place showing the absolute advantage of flatter lie angles for accuracy.
Jack did flatten the shaft through transition. Fly the elbow out, then tuck it back in works. Gil Morgan did that.. Gay Brewer, Miller Barber, Julius Boros to some degree. Johnny Miller was upright and slotted it back in. Hogan was probably the better pure striker, and there is an argument that Hogan's record was as good or better. Only played the British Open once and didn't play the PGA Championship often because he didn't believe in match play. Also, there were other events that were considered majors in his era... World Championship of Golf at Tam O Shanter, and the North South was a major event. Hogan won a few of those.
@@lagpressure thank you for responding. I agree with all you said. I am no where near your level, yet as a teacher and 50 years of study, I had finally hit upon what you stated. I went with a very short backswing to hip level, and could sometimes feel the shaft flex. My distance was 80% but the hits were pure and right on target. The problem is that it take great timing and patience that is of a high athletic level. At 63 I can’t achieve it. I appreciate Malaska (I assume he played when you did) and Simon Edward’s instruction. Mike seems to put the club in front and Nicklaus did say he wanted to feel the club beating the buttons on his shirt (but feel and real are not the same). Edward’s seems to say the same as you about bringing the club under the plane and getting a draw. Your study and instruction is great for a player aspiring to be on tour. Thank you for your time and any response. I’ve hit a few shots that let me experience a pro level but my consistency is amateur. All the best
We teach the 4:30 line for both draws, fades and straight shots. Much better technique to make the adjustments post impact (intentions) We take the timing out of it by eliminating clubface roll through the strike. @@wayneriley7367
Long drive guys swing in the upright motion so why are they not taught but more ridicule in the golfing world? This myth of upright swing is bad has gotta stop because the best that ever played the game all have more of an upright swing than a flat swing so why are instructors teaching it even though the handicap hasn't really improved? l am glad to see instructors today who work with the regular golfers with what their ability and swing type that can match up with their skill/body type and so forth rather than the cookie cutter swing and swing theory that doesn't work for everyone but then yet majority of instructors teaches this day. Those who come up with anything different are ridiculed and you name it. My question is how can a storky/muscular/thick person swing the way you are teaching? That's a no can do! Therefore that person will more likely swing upright and l tell you it works. For years l tried the cookie cutter swing and it's not for me l found a video of an instructor that says upright is ok as long as you do these and WOW l rip the ball and compress it like l had never done before. Now the game is fun and this is after only hitting balls in two months time after leaving the game for 15 years. Sling it well guys and have fun. Thank you.
You'll never properly control the golf ball with an upright swing. Even Nicklaus had problems missing short irons long and left. Swinging flat works great for stocky golfers also. Peter Senior is a perfect example. It's not a cookie cutter method. Learn to do it correctly and your swing will be much more repeatable and you'll keep the ball out of the red zone (long/ left misses.)
I never understood why so many teaching pros and tour pros say Ben Hogan and Moe Norman were the benchmarks for good swings yet they continue to swing on an exaggerated, two-plane swing that is very upright. I get that everyone has their own body types and checkpoints in a swing, but you would at least expect more players to have flatter backswings. However, most have a very vertical plane.
Ben Hogan had a flat swing. He kept his trail elbow close to his body during the swing up until the release. His swing looks very awkward and unpowerful to me. Looks are so deceiving. Great video :)
Thank you! Flat just feels so connected and consistent whereas upright does not
I would agree!
Fantastic information, detailed and clear! Thanks!
Since I went back to flatter compact swing I no longer need extensive stretching, warm-up, and lucky timing. I get to first tee and smash it.
Yep, it really is an advantage when done correctly... but of course.. must be done "correctly"...
I agree... it's better for sure for almost everyone..
I know you and Bradley Hughes teach pretty much the same "4:30" path and general concepts. I notice he doesn't necessarily talk about a wider stance through the bag to accommodate what you call, keeping your club back and allowing your legs to start the swing. What are your thoughts on this? He does a lot of impact bag too.....do you agree with that?
The wider stances in the past were designed for more of a lateral move to initiate transition. The more recent trend has been narrower stances...both can work, but I prefer the old way because it helps delay acceleration of the club if you use the lateral move to delay torso opening or rotation which aid in holding shaft flex into the strike.
@@lagpressure That's what I have observed in your videos, and it makes sense! I would assume one could still do the impact bag and the drills, etc.? Bradley also seems to not be too concerned about the backswing, so to speak. You seem to emphasize the shoulder turn and the hands/backswing being not to around, so just curious.
I've been a re-router under the plane my entire golfing life. I think I lose a lot of swing speed by doing that. Great content John.
Depends upon how it's done... more great strikers did some kind of re routing.
I like the concept of flatter tends to have your misses straighter with more of a trajectory issue. Excellent concept. Great ball strikers, Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods, Fred Couples, Sam Snead, Johnny Miller. These guys had upright style swings. Although Tiger did rework his to be flatter after 2001 and then more upright again later on. All the long drive guys try to be upright and taller at the top of the backswing. They intentionally try to increase the distance between their hands and the ball and use their bodies to squat and explode back up through the ball using the ground. They are approaching 150+ mph clubhead speed.
I still like your other explanation where you argue that the face rotation on a flat angle has less effect on open/closed and more on loft angle. . . so misses go straighter. I keep wondering if that would hold true for putting as well?
Isao Aoki used this concept and was considered one of the great putters of all time. It works...
@@lagpressure so that was the reason for the toe being raised so much. I always just thought it was some quirky thing he did probably learned as a kid.
@@tomnelson8515 He could have flattened out the putter to match, but makes no difference really because there is no loft on the club (putter) which would send the ball left with loft. I've done the same thing essentially with my putter, but I did flatten it out for visual reasons. My putter sits at about 56 degree lie angle.. flatter than any putter you will ever find. Really helps keep the ball online... so I can focus more on pace.
@@lagpressure does your putter toe sit upright being a 56 degree lie angle?
@@Jeffersonokay No, I bent it flat.. so it sits like my other clubs. It's now a golf club.. not a "putter"... I treat is as any other club..round grip and everything. Much better than making golf "two games"
Great stuff. General curiosity but doesn't Trevino's backswing fall more into a rerouting trype of swing where he does start a little upright? Wanted to hear your thoughts on this.
correct... it's a great way to route the backswing...
BTW, 16 @ Cypress is probably the best hole in golf. Hope you birdied it.
Sounds good to me.
How can i connect with you for a lesson? I live relatively close by.
Much easier for me to make good contact with the flat swing I’ve tried more upright, but I keep going back flip
Great video
Flatter meaning more 1 plane type swing?
Start with flatter lie angles. Get the torso more erect to encourage a flatter torso and shoulder rotation. Backswing path doesn't matter much... watch the most recent video I posted to explain. I have videos all over the place showing the absolute advantage of flatter lie angles for accuracy.
Thanks John👍🏻
Whatever gets you into that bent up impact situation. Right arm still practically at 90, right wrist back.....otherwise im not sure it matters.
I tend to agree, but it begs one question; how do you explain jack nicklaus being the GOAT?
Jack did flatten the shaft through transition. Fly the elbow out, then tuck it back in works. Gil Morgan did that.. Gay Brewer, Miller Barber, Julius Boros to some degree. Johnny Miller was upright and slotted it back in.
Hogan was probably the better pure striker, and there is an argument that Hogan's record was as good or better. Only played the British Open once and didn't play the PGA Championship often because he didn't believe in match play. Also, there were other events that were considered majors in his era... World Championship of Golf at Tam O Shanter, and the North South was a major event. Hogan won a few of those.
@@lagpressure thank you for responding. I agree with all you said. I am no where near your level, yet as a teacher and 50 years of study, I had finally hit upon what you stated. I went with a very short backswing to hip level, and could sometimes feel the shaft flex. My distance was 80% but the hits were pure and right on target. The problem is that it take great timing and patience that is of a high athletic level. At 63 I can’t achieve it. I appreciate Malaska (I assume he played when you did) and Simon Edward’s instruction. Mike seems to put the club in front and Nicklaus did say he wanted to feel the club beating the buttons on his shirt (but feel and real are not the same). Edward’s seems to say the same as you about bringing the club under the plane and getting a draw. Your study and instruction is great for a player aspiring to be on tour. Thank you for your time and any response. I’ve hit a few shots that let me experience a pro level but my consistency is amateur. All the best
We teach the 4:30 line for both draws, fades and straight shots. Much better technique to make the adjustments post impact (intentions) We take the timing out of it by eliminating clubface roll through the strike.
@@wayneriley7367
Long drive guys swing in the upright motion so why are they not taught but more ridicule in the golfing world? This myth of upright swing is bad has gotta stop because the best that ever played the game all have more of an upright swing than a flat swing so why are instructors teaching it even though the handicap hasn't really improved? l am glad to see instructors today who work with the regular golfers with what their ability and swing type that can match up with their skill/body type and so forth rather than the cookie cutter swing and swing theory that doesn't work for everyone but then yet majority of instructors teaches this day. Those who come up with anything different are ridiculed and you name it. My question is how can a storky/muscular/thick person swing the way you are teaching? That's a no can do! Therefore that person will more likely swing upright and l tell you it works. For years l tried the cookie cutter swing and it's not for me l found a video of an instructor that says upright is ok as long as you do these and WOW l rip the ball and compress it like l had never done before. Now the game is fun and this is after only hitting balls in two months time after leaving the game for 15 years. Sling it well guys and have fun. Thank you.
You'll never properly control the golf ball with an upright swing. Even Nicklaus had problems missing short irons long and left. Swinging flat works great for stocky golfers also. Peter Senior is a perfect example. It's not a cookie cutter method. Learn to do it correctly and your swing will be much more repeatable and you'll keep the ball out of the red zone (long/ left misses.)
I never understood why so many teaching pros and tour pros say Ben Hogan and Moe Norman were the benchmarks for good swings yet they continue to swing on an exaggerated, two-plane swing that is very upright. I get that everyone has their own body types and checkpoints in a swing, but you would at least expect more players to have flatter backswings. However, most have a very vertical plane.
A main reason most struggle with consistency.... pros or amateurs.
Ben Hogan had a flat swing. He kept his trail elbow close to his body during the swing up until the release. His swing looks very awkward and unpowerful to me. Looks are so deceiving. Great video :)
Wait a minute! Did I just read the word “awkward” and Ben Hogan in the same sentence? The blasphemy! Prettiest and most electric swing ever.
I think in between is the way to go. Overly in one direction is bad as well
Depends...
All talk no action.