Review - The Temple of Elemental Evil
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- Muffin Reviews the various guises of the Temple of Elemental Evil, including the original T1-4 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 1st Edition module, the 3rd Edition Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, and Goodman Games Original Adventures Reincarnated, Volume 6.
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"Princes of the Apocalypse" seems to have gotten only a mediocre reception since its release, although I do like it. Your suggestion that it may now realize a fully new potential by combination with the TOEE is particularly exciting!
Page 246 of the Princes adventure touches on the original Temple. I think the two can co-habit, but the railroad needs taking out of Princes. Weaving elements from Princes into the T1-4 plot is, I feel, the way to go, rather than vice versa. It gives the Temple factions something to round them out and build them up.
It'd take some juggling. But at least 5E is the easiest "hub edition" to convert through to and from virtually any other D&D edition, so it's not too difficult. As I said in the video, now we've got a good conversion and expansion of T1-4 in 5E, using that as a basis to draw Princes elements (pun intended) in, or using the 5E1st Ed. comparison that OAR6 provides as a starting point to bring Princes into 1st or 2nd Ed. should be... well, not a breeze, but certainly doable!
When it comes to rebalancing in conversion in my opinion there are two kinds 1. is ensuring that it "fair fight" 2. is making sure the necessary adaptation takes place so original intended difficulty is kept. For instance throwing 8 lizardmen in 1e is a much easier fight then throwing 8 lizardfolk in 5e because of the powerlevel and how the action economy works. So you'd need to change things quite a bit to keep the original essence. Don't own the reimagineing so don't know which one they were suggesting.
A mixture of both, really. The conversion presents a straight - for the sake of argument and comparison - "8 lizardmen for 8 lizardfolk", but the balancing notes provide different encounter numbers/scale and rewards (5E's treasure economy is vastly different from 1st Ed., for example) in summary for encounters where this is required. So it could be "8 lizardmen for 5 lizardfolk", or it might be "8 lizardmen for 1 lizard king plus 3 lizardfolk". Whatever the designers felt best to retain the flavour of the encounter, but bringing it in to balance with the 5E framework. And no, I haven't done the maths to check whether 8:5 or 8:1LK and 3 work - I'm just using them for illustration.
Tharizdun shouldn’t have any existing worshippers. He’s been forgotten. The only chance for any new worshippers is the rediscovery of the forgotten temple and the dedication to freeing the Dark God. Tharizdun is not active since he has been imprisoned by the gods of light. There’s just no way for the Return to the ToEE can be true without ignoring Tharizdun’s nature.
I guess an assumption would have been that the Temple had been rediscovered by that point. Or, if trying to tie the Gord narrative in, Tharizdun is partially free by this point.
I don't know why I'm trying to justify an adventure I don't even like 🤣
Great video, Mr Willy! Good to see you back into the D&D video posting realm!! 👍 Your extensive connections and history in the hobby is significant to us. 👊
Thank you :)
Great video! I've been running ToEE since the 1e era, and I'm currently working on a FoundryVTT 5e conversion.
As to the Goodman Games books, I was honestly very disappointed with the product. The new interior art was awful. I know bad art tends to be nostalgic for some older players, but the old art honestly wasn't THAT bad. I also thought the conversion was very lazy. They didn't even convert the treasure, which they added a disclaimer about. They should have spent more time on the actual conversion and less time on adding all the useless fluff.
It's the layout of the series that bothers me - art isn't something I typically care much about outside of my Roger Dean et al portfolios.
On the treasure conversion - half agree, but the disclaimer is more than just that. It does suggest changes, so they did do the work, just not in directly altering the main body.
I love the PC game, planning to run the 1e module in 2e in the near future.
Essential mods and patches for the PC game are the Company of Eight mod and the Temple+ patch.
The CO8 patch is excellent. I think the GOG version comes with the official patch 2 applied (I have, for some reason, three of the original PC DVD releases - I can only remember buying one).
Temple+ adds some complexities that are fun, but not essential in my opinion. But hey - all of these parches are free, so you may as well nab 'em :)
Good luck to your players when they get to delve the Temple! May they be successful in their endeavours, and avoid an embarrassing giant frog TPK!
It's an amazing game. Almost perfect. I wish there were more and more and more adventures for it!
For Return... I wish WotC had simply published T2 based on EGG's notes instead of retconning a mess TSR had made (the mice play while the cat is away sort of situation)
I think that's what Mentzer did, by and large. Not sure, of course - not party to Gygax's original notes nor how much of T1-4 is Mentzer vs. how much is Gygax. Might make an interesting study.
Great video. I will use your video in my next purchase!
Thank-you!
I think Frank maybe didn't appear due to his "issues/errors in judgment statements/stances". I'm taking sides in no way either direction, and am only assuming, but it COULD be that.
I personally like his original T1-4, and I'll always run only that one with all my own additions/adjustments. 🙂
And, I totally agree with your opinions on "balance and videogames". I never do this! Thnx again, sir! 👊
It's possible, although I thought that particular s***storm had died. I've (briefly) chatted to Frank - mainly regarding the R-series of modules - and read a lot of his posts from various quarters. Most of the accusations thrown his way simply don't correlate. But - well, we live in that kind of environment these days.
I've run Return... once, and had fun with it - but the amount altered, discarded, bypassed, and otherwise manipulated to make it enjoyable, I'd probably have been better off writing a sequel myself. It's unlikely I'll return to Return to!
But the original is pretty sublime. That will definitely get picked up for the table another two or three times before I'm done with this world.
@@WillyMuffinUK Yep.... that's why, like I said, I'm just kinda assuming there. Yes, in today's world it's just a bit well off the rails in nearly every area in this regard, and honestly we're all kinda sick of the crap. Keep old school gaming only about old school gaming and leave all your mess out of it for goodness sake.
Like you, I'll keep going back to it, although heavily modified, but I'll not be running any other Temple modules/adventures/adjustments either until I'm done. Thnx again, Willy, and great gaming! 👍 If you recorded that Mentzer interview, that'd be amazing to watch/listen to. 🤔
The video game is great fun. Glad you included it in the review. As a side note, when playing Return to the TOEE, when we got to Nulb, I had my character announce to all that he had a bad feeling about the place and wanted nothing to do with it. I promptly set about lighting the abandoned settlement on fire, starting with the Inn. When the deed was done, the DM asked me if I had known that my players actions had permanently destroyed several incorporeal undead dwelling therein. I said no but perhaps the ghost of my 2 HP AD&D Elf Magic-user/Thief who had died there (in both the real world and game/edition pasts) in an unprovoked bar fight may have influenced my thinking. My original TOEE DM had always included several exceptional strength bar thugs in every inn, tavern, or watering hole we ever came across, mostly for his own amusement and true to form one such thug jumped us in Nulb so many years before.
Hah! Nice story :) Although... I am worried about your Elf MU/T dying in "the real world"!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I really enjoy these videos. Thank you for taking the time and effort to make them.
Thank-you :)
Thanks for the share!!
You're welcome!
Crazy idea: Warlock of Firetop Mountain as a prelude to the Temple of EE. Is that crazy? I think it could be done . . .
Anything can be done, where there's a will! Where would Zagor sit in the Temple's hierarchy?
@@WillyMuffinUK A good question. I think I might situate Zagor as a "plan B" replacement for Lareth, a backup sent by Zuggtmoy in the guise of an assistant, ready should Lareth be taken off the board. I might put Firetop somewhere on the northern hex line between Hommlet and the Kron Hills, reachable by traveling west from the Low Road. Zagor would have a cadre of lesser servants aligned with each of the elemental nodes (and actually put there to assist but also spy on him as he is doing with Lareth). I think there might be precedent for this in the "wheels within wheels" theme set forth on page 6 of the original module. Actually, page 6 is where I see all the most convenient entry points for connecting other individuals and settings ("Other Adventures"). But I don't know. This all feels a little half-baked and would need a lot more thought. The PCs might first explore Firetop and then encounter leads that would take them to Hommlet and into the ToEE adventure.
@@whangbar Half baked maybe, but could be baked into a lot of fun!
@@WillyMuffinUK < takes out mittens . . . preheats DM's Miraculous Ezy-Bake Oven of Convenient Justifications . . . >
@@whangbar 🤣
Another great video: I'm having a great time both reminiscing and learning as I work my way therough your videos. I subbed to your subscribestar in gratitude!
Thank-you! I'm glad you're finding them. useful, and thank-you a lot for the sub. Much appreciated 🙂
Thanks Willy, another Great Video, and food for thought for my current 2e campaign.
Thank-you, and you're welcome. All I will say with respect to using TOEE with 2nd is... bear in mind giants got a bit of a power hike between 1st and 2nd......
7:34 - the fact that there is an in-character written work from 997 CY about the “recent past”/“current” events of 569-576 CY is fascinating and implies a strongly-imagined/foreseen future-history a full 420+ years was at least somewhat on Gygax’s mind. I’m really curious how this at all interacted with his [spoilers below for Gygax’s Gord the Rogue novels]…
… effective destruction of the world (if it did so) in the Gord novels.
I sometimes wonder if that was planned, or if it was some form of petulance against TSR having IP on his own creation.
@@WillyMuffinUK Gygax was great, but well known as a grump - I've long been under the strong impression it was petulance. But Gygax is *also* known (to me, at least) as a bit of a stickler, so I can't help but feel he would feel compelled to reconcile these things.
... though he *also* has been known to brush off inconsistencies (I'm looking at you, Hommlet's [and Nulb's, and etc.'s placement]), sooooooo... make of that what you will, I guess! Hahah!
great video. perhaps a list/review on the best D&D novels? - if you have read any…
I have, and... Well, they're not exactly paragons of literature. I'd more prefer to review something like Appendix N :)
You forgot to cover the Temple of Elemental Evil BOARD GAME!!!!
I saved those for my 4th Edition video, and a later video dedicated to them. But also, the ToEE game is more connected to Princes of the Apocalypse than the original.
I didn't forget - it was a conscious omission 🙂
@@WillyMuffinUK You didn't mentioned Fantasy Grounds TOEE either. Although Goodman Games Temple is the best version the the game module around. It is interesting to note that many out of print or no longer supported D&D products (especially those produced under TSR) can be boght from Dungeons Masters Guilds. Temple of Elemental Eveil can be bought there as a print on demand product as well.
Good stuff Sir!
Thank-you :)
Traveller new era. yes please. YES PLEASE!
It's coming!
A very good and thorough overview. Thanks!
I'm glad you found it useful 🙂
I disliked the original ToEE as there was no way for PCs to intersect with the intrigue within the temple. All the elemental factions are just enemies and end up getting mown down. The "megadungeon" itself was also fairly monotonous - contrasting poorly with (say) Caverns of Thracia, which was alot more atmospheric, diverse and interesting
I wouldn't say that there's no way - depends on the nature of the players. I had one group who approached the place in a sneaker way, and ended up fomenting full-scale civil war between the factions through manipulation.
Certainly agree that Jaquays built better living dungeons than Gygax, though. Thracia and Dark Tower especially.
@@WillyMuffinUK fair call. It's funny how some other writers made inter-NPC intrigue so much easier for PCs to interact with than Gygax did.
@@casimirliber239 Probably play style. Of course, not 100% certain with this, but I think Gygax had more of a linear mindset when it came to design. Notes on Castle Greyhawk did reference multiple "ins", but published works very much have a more linear flow to them. Probably somewhat nature of the beast - a lot of those older adventures were written originally as tournaments, which (back then) needed some linearality to them.
Not sure if linearality is a word. If it's not, it should be.
@@WillyMuffinUK "linearness"? - mix up some latin and anglo-saxon ...?
@@casimirliber239 Why not! Shakespeare did that kind of thing all of the time!