I have a player in my Descent into Avernus game that’s playing an alchemist artificer. I allow them to make as many experimental elixirs equal to their proficiency bonus. They can also make actual potions by using spell slots. The rarity for potions by spell slots from 1st level spell slot equals a common rarity potion to 5th level spell slot equals a legendary potion.
As for the WotC design team, I have to imagine at least of few of them pay attention to third-party stuff. In the early days of Adventures in Middle-earth, I'd write something up, it'd come out, and then the next WotC release would have a similar idea (like losing your movement to gain Advantage on a Ranged Attack). Of course, we're all working with the same vase system, so who knows? Might just be convergent evolution.
Checking in again for your new video. It was paced perfectly, it didn't feel rushed at all and still felt very natural. Just those few moments of slightly pausing to let thoughts settle were perfect. The use of on screen text straight from the book and less image transitions also helped a ton. And finally, I agree with you 100% about how this class is a great example of how the playtesting should have been approaching redesigns. I absolutely love this Apothecary class as an alternative to the pact-bound warlock thematically, while still getting the mechanical playstyle that is unique to warlocks. Just this preview alone makes me want to pick up the Dungeon Dudes book. Thanks for the video!
I’m really glad! I had your comment in the back of my mind during the entire recording haha! And I also totally agree, this approach to playtesting would have been so exciting and really moved the needle so much more :)
One thing that I will say about One DnD: the Fighter changes are great. They really knocked Fighter outta the park in the recent playtest. There is more stuff they can do to make Weapon Masteries a little cooler and more desirable, but just adding stuff to boost ability checks when out of combat, adding ways to move in combat, more uses of abilities like Second Wind and different ways to use those abilities, and the Nerf to Action Surge was done really well: nerf it so you can’t cast two spells in a turn, but it still works the same for Martial classes. Fighter is a win, it’s just a shame that they couldn’t bring similar reasonable design changes to other classes.
The Mutagenist's Transmographying Elixer reads more as Mr. Hyde than Beast. But yeah, I'm a bit old. Good stuff! Totally making a Dr. Jekyll, now. Kudos guys, on adding some steamy-punky-horror to the show!
Yeah you're right it does read more that way :) great point! The Mutagenist and the Pathogenist are the two that really speak to me... if I get a chance to play I will likely be making one of those two. Glad you enjoyed the video!
I’ve played a good amount of the apothecary and I love it I played mutant subclass and have the time of my life being both a tank on 1 side and spell caster on the other. I’ve also played the exorcist and feel like a powerful Paladin. Definitely wanna play the chemist next and love the idea of throwing fire balls without worrying about my team mates in battle 😂
I already bought the pdf because I was looking at the Paladin Oath of Hexes for my character in our next campaign. I need to look at the Apothecary more closely after this. Keep on keepin' on, man!
This is nice to hear. Several people have said that I shouldn’t trust what the Dungeon Dudes say about the strength of things like subclasses and that they’re wrong a lot. But this should clearly show that they know what it means for a class to really be good. Strong, fun and flavorful.
Speaking as an optimizer, dungeon dudes dont always come to the same conclusions as the optimization community, but they are very internally consistent. Just keep in mind that thier analysis is for games that they like to play which may or may not be the same as others play.
The dudes are very up front that their opinions are just that - opinions. They are also very open to hearing other perspectives and have often enough changed their minds on things based on feedback.
"Choice is such a fundamental aspect of games like dnd. It's what makes each character feel unique and distinct from one another." And it's something dnd 5e has shied away from unfortunately, even going so far as to make feats an "optional" rule.
Depending on the spell list, that core chassis just looks like warlock but better in most ways. I dont think the warlock was *that* lacking to need two tools, an extra cantrip, more slots, more invocations and more mystic arcanas
I don't want to be that guy but, if you want class design to be Warlock progression with different flavor you can Play Pathfinder 2e because that's the class design there, subclass at lv1, every lv you have options, and if you go lv by lv they aren't an overwhelming amount of things to choose. 5e design have a point, to be simple and relatively mid power. I personally think that if you allow the Apothecary on your game you have to give the warlock the same slot progression to at least be fair
For clarity: the point isn't to design all classes using Warlock's progression system, that's not at all the point I was trying to make. It was more of a statement on my perspective of a well designed class being one that provides a reasonable amount of options to players without being overwhelming, exploring underutilized mechanics and delivering features that are more than just combat focused. Delivering on all of those are part of what I feel makes class design great and is something that we have missed in a lot of the One D&D playtests so far. The same thing can be done with Fighters or Monks. It was certainly not Warlock or even caster exclusive. This was just one example.
It's normal for different class have different spell progression. What is important is power of class (and it's subclasses) as whole. Just because Apothecary has more spellslots doesn't mean it's stronger. Doesn't mean it's not the case, but it require more playtesting figure whether it is too much, too little or perfectly ballanced.
@@TheTenzen12 it really isn't, at least in 5e you can only have full casting progresión, and be 1/2 or 1/3 of that same progression, being Warlock the exception. Even if the Apothecary kit is REALLY bad, justifying effectively double de spell slots of the Warlock, it will still feel bad as the Warlock player been the worst SR caster, more so this being a 3rd party class
@@alexllenas4607 being 1/2 or 1/3 literally means that they have different spell progression. Also calling warlock "worst spellcaster" is pretty bad take. First of all there is currently no class who can have 8-12 5th level spells per day. Not even wizard have that. Second Warlocks have Eldritch blast (just that alone make better spellcaster then apothecary). Third even without spells invocation and subclass features make warlock good already. And lastly WotC actually tried convert Warlock into standard caster and it was rejected so hard they completely scrapped that idea.
I love the capstone! Anatomical Precision I'm more iffy on. I dont see how you can be anatomically precise with a maul or a greataxe for example - this should only apply to certain weapons e.g. Finesse or piercing or something. Or at the very least have a restriction like Battlesmith or Bladepact
That's actually a great point that can help maybe temper some of the power of the theories. Perhaps some should be restricted from certain Occult Practices? Or while transformed in some way. I also love the capstone though!
Real life great axes are surprisingly small. Precision is useful for using any weapon, not just what part of the body you hit, but what angle you're hitting the body part.
I like Anatomical Precision; a little spaghetti armed book worm can use their knowledge (INT mod) to do damage with a great axe that they are physically unable to do with STR. They can barely swing the large weapon but swing it at the precise spot needed to maximize their effort.
@@PsyrenXYI know, I read your first comment. I was explaining why I would allow it in my game. For people on the fence about it to have a second opinion.
@@InsightCheck I'd love to see you cover Valda's Spire of secrets. I really think it's a 5e game changer. I was disappointed that the Dungeon Dudes haven't done this kind of thing themselves. They mentioned it as a possible alternative during the OGL debacle, instead of covering WotC materials.
Monk fighting style instead of extra damage on a crit you disable a limb or recover one KI if not possible. Limb determined by a D4 & if it's less than 1\4 of the creatures limbs Allied attacks do the same upon landing until that 1\4 is exceeded.
@InsightCheck A Sorcerer's metamagic options, a Warlock's Eldritch Invocations, an Artificer's Item Infusions, a Blood Hunter's Blood Curses, and an Apothecary's Esoteric Theories are all similar. They are generally what other games would call Class Feats, and not only they are thematically named for each class, but more importantly they offer choices to player to customize the class to their playstyle and offers diversity in the types of builds that can be made, and SHOULD be a mainstay for all 5e classes. It's unfornate that with One D&D, we won't be getting Barbarian traditions, Fightyer maneuvers, monk stances, etc.
3:10 With that spell progression, I'm wondering if it could fix the Warlocks spell hoarding issue if you give it to them while limiting the amount of Short Rests you can have. I already think think they should be 10 minutes but a limit of 2. This way Warlocks have more spell slots but not a theoretically infinite amount.
The PDF is out now, I did the kickstarter so I don't know how much it is but I paid $25 U.S I recommend it. Books are always better, but this is worth having I my opinion at least.
I have a player in my Descent into Avernus game that’s playing an alchemist artificer. I allow them to make as many experimental elixirs equal to their proficiency bonus. They can also make actual potions by using spell slots. The rarity for potions by spell slots from 1st level spell slot equals a common rarity potion to 5th level spell slot equals a legendary potion.
That's super cool, I love it!
As for the WotC design team, I have to imagine at least of few of them pay attention to third-party stuff. In the early days of Adventures in Middle-earth, I'd write something up, it'd come out, and then the next WotC release would have a similar idea (like losing your movement to gain Advantage on a Ranged Attack).
Of course, we're all working with the same vase system, so who knows? Might just be convergent evolution.
I would certainly imagine or at least hope they are paying attention to the 3rd party community. There is SO much creativity out there!
Checking in again for your new video.
It was paced perfectly, it didn't feel rushed at all and still felt very natural. Just those few moments of slightly pausing to let thoughts settle were perfect.
The use of on screen text straight from the book and less image transitions also helped a ton.
And finally, I agree with you 100% about how this class is a great example of how the playtesting should have been approaching redesigns. I absolutely love this Apothecary class as an alternative to the pact-bound warlock thematically, while still getting the mechanical playstyle that is unique to warlocks. Just this preview alone makes me want to pick up the Dungeon Dudes book.
Thanks for the video!
I’m really glad! I had your comment in the back of my mind during the entire recording haha!
And I also totally agree, this approach to playtesting would have been so exciting and really moved the needle so much more :)
One thing that I will say about One DnD: the Fighter changes are great. They really knocked Fighter outta the park in the recent playtest. There is more stuff they can do to make Weapon Masteries a little cooler and more desirable, but just adding stuff to boost ability checks when out of combat, adding ways to move in combat, more uses of abilities like Second Wind and different ways to use those abilities, and the Nerf to Action Surge was done really well: nerf it so you can’t cast two spells in a turn, but it still works the same for Martial classes. Fighter is a win, it’s just a shame that they couldn’t bring similar reasonable design changes to other classes.
Absolutely! The UA7 Fighter was really really great and was a great design win for the team!
I still hold out hope they add a proper psionist class someday, been dying for one
Saaaaaaame!
Seems unlikely but I'd absolutely love it
The Mutagenist's Transmographying Elixer reads more as Mr. Hyde than Beast. But yeah, I'm a bit old. Good stuff! Totally making a Dr. Jekyll, now. Kudos guys, on adding some steamy-punky-horror to the show!
Yeah you're right it does read more that way :) great point!
The Mutagenist and the Pathogenist are the two that really speak to me... if I get a chance to play I will likely be making one of those two.
Glad you enjoyed the video!
I’ve played a good amount of the apothecary and I love it I played mutant subclass and have the time of my life being both a tank on 1 side and spell caster on the other. I’ve also played the exorcist and feel like a powerful Paladin. Definitely wanna play the chemist next and love the idea of throwing fire balls without worrying about my team mates in battle 😂
That’s awesome! I really really want to try the Mutagenist!
I already bought the pdf because I was looking at the Paladin Oath of Hexes for my character in our next campaign. I need to look at the Apothecary more closely after this.
Keep on keepin' on, man!
Oath of Hexes is really cool!
And thank you :)
At first I thought we were getting 6e, but they really are making 5.1e (it's a good revision, I'm on board with, but just a revision)
Yeah I was basically on the same boat.
This is nice to hear. Several people have said that I shouldn’t trust what the Dungeon Dudes say about the strength of things like subclasses and that they’re wrong a lot. But this should clearly show that they know what it means for a class to really be good. Strong, fun and flavorful.
Very very much this. Strong, fun and flavourful I think are perfect ways to describe this class and most of the book really!
Speaking as an optimizer, dungeon dudes dont always come to the same conclusions as the optimization community, but they are very internally consistent. Just keep in mind that thier analysis is for games that they like to play which may or may not be the same as others play.
The dudes are very up front that their opinions are just that - opinions. They are also very open to hearing other perspectives and have often enough changed their minds on things based on feedback.
Just read the title alone and cannot agree more. This is the most exciting class and just dnd book as a whole that I have ever read
"Choice is such a fundamental aspect of games like dnd. It's what makes each character feel unique and distinct from one another." And it's something dnd 5e has shied away from unfortunately, even going so far as to make feats an "optional" rule.
Depending on the spell list, that core chassis just looks like warlock but better in most ways. I dont think the warlock was *that* lacking to need two tools, an extra cantrip, more slots, more invocations and more mystic arcanas
I don't want to be that guy but, if you want class design to be Warlock progression with different flavor you can Play Pathfinder 2e because that's the class design there, subclass at lv1, every lv you have options, and if you go lv by lv they aren't an overwhelming amount of things to choose.
5e design have a point, to be simple and relatively mid power. I personally think that if you allow the Apothecary on your game you have to give the warlock the same slot progression to at least be fair
For clarity: the point isn't to design all classes using Warlock's progression system, that's not at all the point I was trying to make. It was more of a statement on my perspective of a well designed class being one that provides a reasonable amount of options to players without being overwhelming, exploring underutilized mechanics and delivering features that are more than just combat focused. Delivering on all of those are part of what I feel makes class design great and is something that we have missed in a lot of the One D&D playtests so far.
The same thing can be done with Fighters or Monks. It was certainly not Warlock or even caster exclusive. This was just one example.
Warlocks are magical hoes
It's normal for different class have different spell progression. What is important is power of class (and it's subclasses) as whole. Just because Apothecary has more spellslots doesn't mean it's stronger. Doesn't mean it's not the case, but it require more playtesting figure whether it is too much, too little or perfectly ballanced.
@@TheTenzen12 it really isn't, at least in 5e you can only have full casting progresión, and be 1/2 or 1/3 of that same progression, being Warlock the exception. Even if the Apothecary kit is REALLY bad, justifying effectively double de spell slots of the Warlock, it will still feel bad as the Warlock player been the worst SR caster, more so this being a 3rd party class
@@alexllenas4607 being 1/2 or 1/3 literally means that they have different spell progression. Also calling warlock "worst spellcaster" is pretty bad take. First of all there is currently no class who can have 8-12 5th level spells per day. Not even wizard have that. Second Warlocks have Eldritch blast (just that alone make better spellcaster then apothecary). Third even without spells invocation and subclass features make warlock good already. And lastly WotC actually tried convert Warlock into standard caster and it was rejected so hard they completely scrapped that idea.
I love the capstone!
Anatomical Precision I'm more iffy on. I dont see how you can be anatomically precise with a maul or a greataxe for example - this should only apply to certain weapons e.g. Finesse or piercing or something. Or at the very least have a restriction like Battlesmith or Bladepact
That's actually a great point that can help maybe temper some of the power of the theories. Perhaps some should be restricted from certain Occult Practices? Or while transformed in some way.
I also love the capstone though!
Real life great axes are surprisingly small. Precision is useful for using any weapon, not just what part of the body you hit, but what angle you're hitting the body part.
I like Anatomical Precision; a little spaghetti armed book worm can use their knowledge (INT mod) to do damage with a great axe that they are physically unable to do with STR.
They can barely swing the large weapon but swing it at the precise spot needed to maximize their effort.
@@bluebird3281 I don't think it should work with Heavy weapons at all
@@PsyrenXYI know, I read your first comment. I was explaining why I would allow it in my game. For people on the fence about it to have a second opinion.
I'd love more of this, 3pp product reviews, especially classes.
That's awesome, I'm glad you enjoyed it! I've definitely been thinking about exploring this more!
Same.
This isnt something i see a lot of. Very nice.
@@InsightCheck I'd love to see you cover Valda's Spire of secrets. I really think it's a 5e game changer.
I was disappointed that the Dungeon Dudes haven't done this kind of thing themselves. They mentioned it as a possible alternative during the OGL debacle, instead of covering WotC materials.
I will definitely look into that! Thanks for the suggestion :)
A proper merchant class is way long overdue. There is mention of it in Blackmoore.
Absolutely, that could be a lot of fun. I can imagine a lot of different directions to take that!
Anesthesiology uses the Chains of Carceri format.
Interesting! Thanks for letting me know :)
Monk fighting style instead of extra damage on a crit you disable a limb or recover one KI if not possible. Limb determined by a D4 & if it's less than 1\4 of the creatures limbs Allied attacks do the same upon landing until that 1\4 is exceeded.
The Apothecary has become my fifth favorite D&D 5e class, and my second favorite unofficial class (first is the Blood Hunter.)
It’s hard not to love the Blood Hunter!
@InsightCheck A Sorcerer's metamagic options, a Warlock's Eldritch Invocations, an Artificer's Item Infusions, a Blood Hunter's Blood Curses, and an Apothecary's Esoteric Theories are all similar. They are generally what other games would call Class Feats, and not only they are thematically named for each class, but more importantly they offer choices to player to customize the class to their playstyle and offers diversity in the types of builds that can be made, and SHOULD be a mainstay for all 5e classes.
It's unfornate that with One D&D, we won't be getting Barbarian traditions, Fightyer maneuvers, monk stances, etc.
3:10 With that spell progression, I'm wondering if it could fix the Warlocks spell hoarding issue if you give it to them while limiting the amount of Short Rests you can have. I already think think they should be 10 minutes but a limit of 2. This way Warlocks have more spell slots but not a theoretically infinite amount.
02:24 *Reject reality, embrace tiny Canada!* 🤪
Was going to pre-order the book until I saw the price for shipping to Canada :( Would put the price over $100 CAD.
Yeah, it definitely is pretty steep. I picked up the digital version despite how much I wanted to get the physical.
The PDF is out now, I did the kickstarter so I don't know how much it is but I paid $25 U.S
I recommend it. Books are always better, but this is worth having I my opinion at least.
Ya I still like 3.5 because there is so many different ways to build a character
Honestly, sounds very overpowered...