PART 1: Enjoyed both presentation and group discussion. GREAT TOPIC Susan. Great comments Tommy, Johnathan, Dan,... I have dived into this one several times over the years in my previous fellowship groups. I do not claim to have it all worked out. It is a complicated topic connected to many other doctrines. Here is my current take on the doctrines of "sin nature" and "original sin". I DO NOT believe in the doctrine of ORIGINAL SIN that falsely teaches we are BORN with SIN and therefore must baptize babies in order to guarantee their salvation. The idea that humans are born already guilty of someone else’s sin is not only false doctrine, it also dishonors the God of the Bible. This would mean that we are held accountable and punished for a sin that we did not commit. This false doctrine originated with the early Church Fathers (especially Augustine) around the 4th century AD. Romans 5:12 says “death” was transmitted to all men, NOT “guilt”. All children are born and remain INNOCENT before God, until reaching an age of accountability and choosing wrong. This age is determined by God Himself for each person. While there are influences outside of human beings that compel them to sin, I also believe all humans are born disconnected from God and therefore struggling with a bent toward selfishness and sin (sometimes called a SIN NATURE). This not a personal sin debt we born with, but the consequences we generationally inherited through Adam & Eve and our ancestors. We are definitely not born guilty or needing to baptize babies at birth as some denominations wrongly teach. Scriptures refuting the false “doctrine of original sin” … Ezekiel 18:4, 19-20; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Psalm 139:13-14; Ecclesiastes 7:29. The “doctrine of original sin” sounds biblical but isn’t. It actually combines words and phrases from the Bible in ways that contradict the Bible. Check this excellent presentation from the World Video Bible School “Was I born a sinner?” ... ruclips.net/video/kNLHweK3Ix8/видео.html. Unfortunately, the false doctrines of “original sin” and also “sin nature” were then used as a basis for a group of other equally false mainly Calvinistic / Baptist man-made doctrines… #1. "Total Depravity" (that we are totally helpless to choose to obey God) #2. "Unconditional Election" (IF God elects you to be saved, you will be saved regardless of action), #3. "Limited Atonement" (the most terrible of all the doctrines of Calvinism, which proposes that Jesus only died for the elect, and all others were selected by God for hell), and #4. "Preservation of the Saints" …or… "Once Saved Always Saved" (that a true born-again Christian is ETERNALLY SECURE and can NEVER LOSE their salvation no matter what). Scripture is clear that genuine Christians can still choose to “shipwreck” their faith and lose their promise of salvation. See … Matthew 7:21-23; Luke 8:14; Philemon 1:24; 2 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 2 Peter 2:20-22; Hebrews 3:12-14, 6:4-6, 10:26-28; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 9:27, 15:1-2; Ephesians 4:30; Galatians 5:4; Revelation 3:5 Check out this table graphic on "Original Sin" VS "What the bible Says" ... escapetoreality.org/2022/08/03/original-sin-is-unbiblical/ An often-asked question about those who do choose to become born-again and receive the new nature or new heart is: “Why do born-again Christians continue to sin at times?” Exodus 34:7 says that God “[visits] the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.” I believe this is simply talking about bearing the "consequences" of other’s sins both biologically and non-biologically, but in no way talking about any "transmitted sins". We are all born with free will and varying susceptibilities to temptations that are spiritual, environmental and genetic. I agree ... We do inherit “something negative” from Adam and Eve’s fall. The bible clearly states we inherit death and condemnation (Romans 5:12,18) but speaks against any guilt or transmitted sin. Have we inherited a knowledge of good and evil on some spiritual and also biological level? I don’t like the unbiblical term “sinful nature” (found in the NIV only I think) as it has strong connections to the false “doctrine of original sin”. Both doctrines are “adding” and gnostic in origin from the time of Augustine and his departure from Manichaeism. Check out the “Sinful Nature is a heresy”... ruclips.net/video/MKcWPSm1Osc/видео.html for more on this area. Scripture teaches we are all born with the brokenness and consequences of other’s sin, which includes being alienated from God and dying at some point. A person is also not a sinner until they reach the age of accountability when they first realise, they have some sort of choice to make between a good or evil action, and choose evil in their temptation. No one is born as a sinner with sin debt or original sin. They are born with the consequences of other’s sin into a broken world with plenty of temptations. Epigenetics is a new explanatory science that I believe factors into biologically inherited enhanced susceptibilities to choose to sin. I now recognise these biological traits as part of generational curses (not sin) that we each inherit from our ancestors. If we have parents, grandparents, great-grandparents who had significant addiction problems, trauma histories, or other problems; they will epigenetically transmit to us enhanced susceptibilities to dysfunction in similar areas. This is new science that is still not well understood. Scripture’s “Renewing the mind” verses (Romans 12:2; Colossians 3:2; 2 Corinthians 10:5; Joshua 1:8; Psalm 1:1-2; Proverbs 3:4-5, 4:2; Philippians 4:8; Ephesians 4:22-24, 6:10-20) teach us how we break off both learned and also inherited biological dysfunction (curses), by biologically rewiring the brain and switching off inherited activated genes biassed toward unhealthy behaviours. I believe there is often also a spiritual dimension that should be engaged in through spiritual warfare to deal with bondages. Becoming born-again and receiving the new nature or heart is the best first step to engaging in spiritual warfare. Christians can engage in spiritual warfare for another person and provide them temporary relief. However, unless the rescued person themself becomes born-again and puts on the armour of God (verses above), they will remain much more susceptible to demonic influences and their own brokenness and selfishness, and more likely relapsing into sinful behaviours. This leads to another commonly asked question …
PART 2: ARE CHRISTIANS SINNERS, SAINTS, OR BOTH? Do Christians go from having “one nature” to having “dual natures”? ============================================= Christians in scripture are MOSTLY described as “saints”. Here is a very short video message “You are a Saint, not a Sinner!”... ruclips.net/video/JX1aMYFOb_E/видео.html that sums it up well. Church traditions often wrongly describe saints as dead heroes of the faith who have been nominated for “sainthood” and have their names engraved on buildings, churches, universities and/or that they were/are an extraordinarily good person. In the context of New Testament passages, saints are simply defined as those who belong to the body of Christ, saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). In other words, a “saint” is simply another word for a Christian, a true born-again forgiven believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. The presence of Christ is in their hearts (Ephesians 2:19; Revelation 3:20; Galatians 2:20; Philippians 4:7; 1 Peter 3:15; Acts 2:38; John 3:1-36). Throughout the Apostle Paul's epistles to various churches, he always addresses believers in Christ as saints (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Corinthians 1:1; Ephesians 1:1; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:2; 1 Timothy 5:10; Philemon 1:5). At the same time, no one is born a saint. I read the bible teaching we are corporately born without sin but alienated and cut-off from God, with varying degrees of brokenness and a propensity for sinning (some call this a “sin nature”). While born-again Christians or saints are no longer labelled sinners, this also does not mean they do not continue to sin at times (1 John 1:8-10). “Saints” could also be described as “forgiven sinners” who sometimes still sin. This shift is more profound than our behaviours and not focussed primarily on our actions, but on our identities (two different things). Christians remain righteous in God’s sight (identity) even when they commit sin (actions). This is not a contradiction. Rather, the two points complement one another. Jesus’ righteousness is imputed to all who continue to have faith in him (the saints), meaning that Jesus’ personal level of righteousness counts as if it were their own for those born-again in the Spirit. A Christian's legal or positional standing before God is that he/she is declared righteous. In this sense, Christians ARE saints. Those continuing in Christ can no more be condemned than Jesus can, even when they do slip and sin. The label “sinner” is flexible in scripture and used loosely to describe a person who does sinful actions. Christians (saints) living in deliberate sin are sometimes also addressed as “sinners” in scripture (James 4:8), and in danger of “shipwrecking their faith” if they do not choose to repent. The process of “progressive sanctification” and Christians still having to wrestle against sinful behaviour is taught all over the New Testament using language different to Augustine’s “sin nature” (1 Thessalonians 4:3; Hebrews 10:14, 12:14; 2 Corinthians 3:18, 7:1; Philippians 1:6; 3:12-13; Romans 7:1-25, 8:1-39, 12:2; Galatians 5:17; 2 Timothy 2:19-21). None of the early church or Pre-Nicene Fathers taught the complicated unbiblical “dual nature of man” emphasized by Augustine. Jesus, our role model, also did not have dual natures (that is a separate conversation). Scripture simply states that becoming born-again regenerates the heart of man (his single nature) by the Holy Spirit taking up residence in us. At the same time this never removes the person’s free-will and responsibility to choose between sin or doing right. I believe Romans 7 is Paul talking about his unregenerate state prior to his conversion, and his inability at that time to choose rightly. While in this earthly body, the Spirit of God dwelling in every born-again believer still has to contend with man’s free-will and ability to choose. Christians are commanded by the Spirit of God living in them and also scripture to engage in spiritual warfare and choose paths of righteousness. We must choose to discipline ourselves, deny ourselves, walk in the Spirit, be filled with the Spirit, and not grieve the Spirit (Galatians 5; Colossians 3; Ephesians 4). If we do so, we will grow in spiritual maturity and gain more and more conformity to Christ (2 Corinthians 3:17-18). In this sense, while Christians are "positionally" saints, they are also being called to "act" like saints. This does not mean Christians have a “dual nature”. They are called to pursue the positional holiness which Christ has obtained for them, in word and action. To accept the adding of “dual natures” doctrine is: >> Positionally pouring new wine into old wineskins >> Clinging to the old nature and bondages and leaving a door open for continuing sin >> Schizophrenic and denying ongoing regeneration - man has free will and at the same time no free will. Non-sense! Just like Jesus “dual natures” and “Trinity” doctrines are non-sense! >> Claiming no part in the “process of sanctification” as God supposedly does it all for us. The Old Testament prophets portrayed Almighty God as a husband, and His people a wayward wife (the whole book of Hosea is devoted to this). This is very similar to the Apostle Paul painting a picture of Christian marriage looking like the relationship between Christ and the church (Ephesians 5:25-27). Those Christians maintaining a wrong belief that they are still “sinners by nature” will struggle more than those who correctly see themselves as “saints and holy ones” who sometimes fall into sin. Those identifying still as sinners will struggle with feelings of low self-esteem, inadequacy, confusion, guilt, and shame that can be so strong that they even give up on trying to do anything for God. A huge key in being effective as a Christian is to realize that you can do wonderful things for God even while you are still broken and sin at times. The enemy wants us to be beaten down by our struggles and clinging to a false “sin nature” so that we will not do anything significant for the Kingdom of God, and also excuse ongoing sin. “Spirit & Truth”s message “Choose to Move Forward with God”... ruclips.net/video/k_vJmd4FlOE/видео.html excellently sums this up and is highly encouraging. Blessings ... Peter
PART 1:
Enjoyed both presentation and group discussion. GREAT TOPIC Susan. Great comments Tommy, Johnathan, Dan,... I have dived into this one several times over the years in my previous fellowship groups. I do not claim to have it all worked out. It is a complicated topic connected to many other doctrines. Here is my current take on the doctrines of "sin nature" and "original sin".
I DO NOT believe in the doctrine of ORIGINAL SIN that falsely teaches we are BORN with SIN and therefore must baptize babies in order to guarantee their salvation. The idea that humans are born already guilty of someone else’s sin is not only false doctrine, it also dishonors the God of the Bible. This would mean that we are held accountable and punished for a sin that we did not commit. This false doctrine originated with the early Church Fathers (especially Augustine) around the 4th century AD. Romans 5:12 says “death” was transmitted to all men, NOT “guilt”. All children are born and remain INNOCENT before God, until reaching an age of accountability and choosing wrong. This age is determined by God Himself for each person. While there are influences outside of human beings that compel them to sin, I also believe all humans are born disconnected from God and therefore struggling with a bent toward selfishness and sin (sometimes called a SIN NATURE). This not a personal sin debt we born with, but the consequences we generationally inherited through Adam & Eve and our ancestors. We are definitely not born guilty or needing to baptize babies at birth as some denominations wrongly teach. Scriptures refuting the false “doctrine of original sin” … Ezekiel 18:4, 19-20; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Psalm 139:13-14; Ecclesiastes 7:29. The “doctrine of original sin” sounds biblical but isn’t. It actually combines words and phrases from the Bible in ways that contradict the Bible. Check this excellent presentation from the World Video Bible School “Was I born a sinner?” ... ruclips.net/video/kNLHweK3Ix8/видео.html. Unfortunately, the false doctrines of “original sin” and also “sin nature” were then used as a basis for a group of other equally false mainly Calvinistic / Baptist man-made doctrines…
#1. "Total Depravity" (that we are totally helpless to choose to obey God)
#2. "Unconditional Election" (IF God elects you to be saved, you will be saved regardless of action),
#3. "Limited Atonement" (the most terrible of all the doctrines of Calvinism, which proposes that Jesus only died for the elect, and all others were selected by God for hell), and
#4. "Preservation of the Saints" …or… "Once Saved Always Saved" (that a true born-again Christian is ETERNALLY SECURE and can NEVER LOSE their salvation no matter what). Scripture is clear that genuine Christians can still choose to “shipwreck” their faith and lose their promise of salvation. See … Matthew 7:21-23; Luke 8:14; Philemon 1:24; 2 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 2 Peter 2:20-22; Hebrews 3:12-14, 6:4-6, 10:26-28; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 9:27, 15:1-2; Ephesians 4:30; Galatians 5:4; Revelation 3:5
Check out this table graphic on "Original Sin" VS "What the bible Says" ... escapetoreality.org/2022/08/03/original-sin-is-unbiblical/
An often-asked question about those who do choose to become born-again and receive the new nature or new heart is: “Why do born-again Christians continue to sin at times?” Exodus 34:7 says that God “[visits] the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.” I believe this is simply talking about bearing the "consequences" of other’s sins both biologically and non-biologically, but in no way talking about any "transmitted sins". We are all born with free will and varying susceptibilities to temptations that are spiritual, environmental and genetic. I agree ... We do inherit “something negative” from Adam and Eve’s fall. The bible clearly states we inherit death and condemnation (Romans 5:12,18) but speaks against any guilt or transmitted sin. Have we inherited a knowledge of good and evil on some spiritual and also biological level? I don’t like the unbiblical term “sinful nature” (found in the NIV only I think) as it has strong connections to the false “doctrine of original sin”. Both doctrines are “adding” and gnostic in origin from the time of Augustine and his departure from Manichaeism. Check out the “Sinful Nature is a heresy”... ruclips.net/video/MKcWPSm1Osc/видео.html for more on this area. Scripture teaches we are all born with the brokenness and consequences of other’s sin, which includes being alienated from God and dying at some point. A person is also not a sinner until they reach the age of accountability when they first realise, they have some sort of choice to make between a good or evil action, and choose evil in their temptation. No one is born as a sinner with sin debt or original sin. They are born with the consequences of other’s sin into a broken world with plenty of temptations. Epigenetics is a new explanatory science that I believe factors into biologically inherited enhanced susceptibilities to choose to sin. I now recognise these biological traits as part of generational curses (not sin) that we each inherit from our ancestors. If we have parents, grandparents, great-grandparents who had significant addiction problems, trauma histories, or other problems; they will epigenetically transmit to us enhanced susceptibilities to dysfunction in similar areas. This is new science that is still not well understood. Scripture’s “Renewing the mind” verses (Romans 12:2; Colossians 3:2; 2 Corinthians 10:5; Joshua 1:8; Psalm 1:1-2; Proverbs 3:4-5, 4:2; Philippians 4:8; Ephesians 4:22-24, 6:10-20) teach us how we break off both learned and also inherited biological dysfunction (curses), by biologically rewiring the brain and switching off inherited activated genes biassed toward unhealthy behaviours. I believe there is often also a spiritual dimension that should be engaged in through spiritual warfare to deal with bondages. Becoming born-again and receiving the new nature or heart is the best first step to engaging in spiritual warfare. Christians can engage in spiritual warfare for another person and provide them temporary relief. However, unless the rescued person themself becomes born-again and puts on the armour of God (verses above), they will remain much more susceptible to demonic influences and their own brokenness and selfishness, and more likely relapsing into sinful behaviours. This leads to another commonly asked question …
PART 2: ARE CHRISTIANS SINNERS, SAINTS, OR BOTH? Do Christians go from having “one nature” to having “dual natures”?
=============================================
Christians in scripture are MOSTLY described as “saints”. Here is a very short video message “You are a Saint, not a Sinner!”... ruclips.net/video/JX1aMYFOb_E/видео.html that sums it up well. Church traditions often wrongly describe saints as dead heroes of the faith who have been nominated for “sainthood” and have their names engraved on buildings, churches, universities and/or that they were/are an extraordinarily good person. In the context of New Testament passages, saints are simply defined as those who belong to the body of Christ, saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). In other words, a “saint” is simply another word for a Christian, a true born-again forgiven believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. The presence of Christ is in their hearts (Ephesians 2:19; Revelation 3:20; Galatians 2:20; Philippians 4:7; 1 Peter 3:15; Acts 2:38; John 3:1-36). Throughout the Apostle Paul's epistles to various churches, he always addresses believers in Christ as saints (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Corinthians 1:1; Ephesians 1:1; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:2; 1 Timothy 5:10; Philemon 1:5). At the same time, no one is born a saint. I read the bible teaching we are corporately born without sin but alienated and cut-off from God, with varying degrees of brokenness and a propensity for sinning (some call this a “sin nature”). While born-again Christians or saints are no longer labelled sinners, this also does not mean they do not continue to sin at times (1 John 1:8-10). “Saints” could also be described as “forgiven sinners” who sometimes still sin. This shift is more profound than our behaviours and not focussed primarily on our actions, but on our identities (two different things). Christians remain righteous in God’s sight (identity) even when they commit sin (actions). This is not a contradiction. Rather, the two points complement one another. Jesus’ righteousness is imputed to all who continue to have faith in him (the saints), meaning that Jesus’ personal level of righteousness counts as if it were their own for those born-again in the Spirit. A Christian's legal or positional standing before God is that he/she is declared righteous. In this sense, Christians ARE saints. Those continuing in Christ can no more be condemned than Jesus can, even when they do slip and sin. The label “sinner” is flexible in scripture and used loosely to describe a person who does sinful actions. Christians (saints) living in deliberate sin are sometimes also addressed as “sinners” in scripture (James 4:8), and in danger of “shipwrecking their faith” if they do not choose to repent. The process of “progressive sanctification” and Christians still having to wrestle against sinful behaviour is taught all over the New Testament using language different to Augustine’s “sin nature” (1 Thessalonians 4:3; Hebrews 10:14, 12:14; 2 Corinthians 3:18, 7:1; Philippians 1:6; 3:12-13; Romans 7:1-25, 8:1-39, 12:2; Galatians 5:17; 2 Timothy 2:19-21). None of the early church or Pre-Nicene Fathers taught the complicated unbiblical “dual nature of man” emphasized by Augustine. Jesus, our role model, also did not have dual natures (that is a separate conversation). Scripture simply states that becoming born-again regenerates the heart of man (his single nature) by the Holy Spirit taking up residence in us. At the same time this never removes the person’s free-will and responsibility to choose between sin or doing right. I believe Romans 7 is Paul talking about his unregenerate state prior to his conversion, and his inability at that time to choose rightly. While in this earthly body, the Spirit of God dwelling in every born-again believer still has to contend with man’s free-will and ability to choose. Christians are commanded by the Spirit of God living in them and also scripture to engage in spiritual warfare and choose paths of righteousness. We must choose to discipline ourselves, deny ourselves, walk in the Spirit, be filled with the Spirit, and not grieve the Spirit (Galatians 5; Colossians 3; Ephesians 4). If we do so, we will grow in spiritual maturity and gain more and more conformity to Christ (2 Corinthians 3:17-18). In this sense, while Christians are "positionally" saints, they are also being called to "act" like saints. This does not mean Christians have a “dual nature”. They are called to pursue the positional holiness which Christ has obtained for them, in word and action. To accept the adding of “dual natures” doctrine is:
>> Positionally pouring new wine into old wineskins
>> Clinging to the old nature and bondages and leaving a door open for continuing sin
>> Schizophrenic and denying ongoing regeneration - man has free will and at the same time no free will. Non-sense! Just like Jesus “dual natures” and “Trinity” doctrines are non-sense!
>> Claiming no part in the “process of sanctification” as God supposedly does it all for us.
The Old Testament prophets portrayed Almighty God as a husband, and His people a wayward wife (the whole book of Hosea is devoted to this). This is very similar to the Apostle Paul painting a picture of Christian marriage looking like the relationship between Christ and the church (Ephesians 5:25-27). Those Christians maintaining a wrong belief that they are still “sinners by nature” will struggle more than those who correctly see themselves as “saints and holy ones” who sometimes fall into sin. Those identifying still as sinners will struggle with feelings of low self-esteem, inadequacy, confusion, guilt, and shame that can be so strong that they even give up on trying to do anything for God. A huge key in being effective as a Christian is to realize that you can do wonderful things for God even while you are still broken and sin at times. The enemy wants us to be beaten down by our struggles and clinging to a false “sin nature” so that we will not do anything significant for the Kingdom of God, and also excuse ongoing sin. “Spirit & Truth”s message “Choose to Move Forward with God”... ruclips.net/video/k_vJmd4FlOE/видео.html excellently sums this up and is highly encouraging.
Blessings ... Peter