Trying to reduce jointer noise and vibrations
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 30 окт 2024
- Analyzing sources of noise and vibration on my homemade jointer. The shelix head made it much quieter, but without the cutter head dominating the noise, there are a lot of other noises to chase.
More about my homemade jointer:
woodgears.ca/jo...
Matthias, you amaze me. As a retired engineer who used to turn old machine tools into super precision tools, you have all the skills my friend. I enjoy watching you work.
I love it: All sorts of fixes to get the machine to run whisper quiet...run some wood through and it breaks your eardrums! I think you have reached the point of diminishing returns Matthias. Great video thumbs up.
don't mind the noise while using the machine, the goal is to make it so silent you can leave it on at all times!
@@sliceofbread2611 A planer that you can't tell whether or not is on sounds like a great safety feature ...
SKF invented the spherical bearing just because of this issue. In the olden days it often was the case that the mounting surfaces for the bearing blocks were not aligned/parallel/co-planar due to poor foundations.
My 1940's sander has those (replaced with new of same type) on the pivotting tracking roller. Those bearings are quite noisy with the freedom of movement they allow.
Svenska kullagerfabriken
Do you think a slightly flattened bearing, (oval, egg-shaped) would have the good features of both?
@@davekavanagh7599 a compromise is always going to be a compromise.
Earplugs. You're welcome. :)
This is one of my favorite of your video series, because there are so many spinny things in the world and I never thought about how you could balance them yourself with a simple tool. Balancing always seemed so magical to me but duh you can just use the process of elimination.
Life is all about balance 💚 and not your bank account balance 💚
I'll probably never actually need the wisdom you share in these videos Matthias but your problem solving skills and fluid intelligence is so incredibly inspiring.
Hello Mathias, I'll give you the mechanics' way of working: when you place your puller on the outside of the cage of a ball bearing to take it out, this bearing is considered broken because the effect of forcing it on the outside of the cage causes the bearings to shatter. It is with pleasure that I give you this trick.
I love the fact that you'll tackle ANY problem with science, you design tools job specific. Sir, you are a genius.
When you have two ball bearings mounted as you do, one needs to be fixed so the end doesn't float. Look at an electric motor. One end is held clamped and the other has a spring to take up any movement as it floats when things warm up.
That seems like an insightful comment to the uninformed me. I hope he responds to it.
I really love the precision of your work. Chasing perfection can be very time consuming and expensive.
Fascinating. I’ll never get over the duality of high precision measuring combined with good old fashion -HIT IT with a hammer!
Interesting! The bearings are, no doubt, a source of noise and, most likely, also vibration. The new bearings will highlight the other problems you have. I would suggest, if you have access to a lathe, check the Shelix bearing surfaces between centers - I have a feeling that they are not as square as they should.
I believe you saw what he uses for a lathe in this video: wooden, doesn't have a big engine lathe
He doesn't have a metal lathe.
He definitely had one, dont know if he sold it or still got it
@@awldune He doesn't need a metal lathe to check it for concetricity. A wooden late with 2 centers allows to mount it, and then he can easily check it with the dial indicator.
@@Scrial Yeah, that or bearing blocks like they use to balance cranks. And use your indicator
Matthias you are one of a kind....just because you can and want to doesn’t mean its going to!! I still admire ingenuity and passion!!
I absolutely love this practice of building your own machines to your own specific use. And seeing how when you need to get inside and adjust things how easily it can be taken apart and modulated.
Also the process of improving what you have in your shop is forever one of the most satisfying things to do, but wow you take it to a WHOLE new level that I look forward to trying myself.
Very entertaining and packed with nuggets of info. Love the content!
I love the series of you reviewing your equipment for improvements and noises trying to make everything better. Most of it over my head but it's great info.
Looks like the shaft where the bearings mount could be ever so slightly worn or not perfectly straight or round causing the vibrations side to side in the bearings… run the dial indicator around the shaft next time it’s apart! Great video!
I'd have to have some reference for it to spin on, which means, *with* the bearings on!
@@matthiaswandel stick it between centers in the lathe?
as a machinist, it seems to me like the shaft is bent, you can either put it between some centers like suggested above or set it on some v blocks, even wooden one will work then while its stationary let it spin and set the indicator on top that will basically tell you right away if its bent. Also when you have indicator on the block if you actually look at the pulley( the pulley are precision fit and should not be running out like that) and the shoulder of the cutter you can see the run out, the bearing noise and blocks moving are symptoms of bent shaft not the cause.
Fantastic the way you systematically identify the problems, attend to them and then evaluate the fix.
I love how you went from spanner to impact drill to remove the bearing, progress
"... as long as the wobble is within the slop...".
Like it. I will use that on my next engine rebuild...
Love the analysis Matthias. I do however think the bearings are shagged, as we say in the UK.
I'll bet you when he replaces those garbage bearings with SKF, the wobble will be worse than the slop, and he'll have to take another shot at it!
I might have to add some shim to the rear bearing mount to compensate for the wobble.
@@matthiaswandel look forward to seeing the results.
Keep up the good work... always enjoy all of your output. 👍🏽
@@matthiaswandel would it be worth it to have a machinist chuck it in a lathe and check to make sure the bearing seats are true to the shaft? That could be a reason you have wobble.
I hate when my wobble isn't in my slop.
Making a bearing holder out of a compressible material is a recipe for sympathetic vibration. Put a real metal bearing block instead of wood. Also add some metal inserts into the mounting surfaces to stabilize. Many things can be made out of wood as you have demonstrated. The mass/inertia of these parts and the rotational speeds mean you have some complex dynamic forces with considerable energy, gyroscope procession with significant force, etc.
But the video demonstrates that even with wooden bearing blocks, you can tweak the machine into the "good enough" territory.
Making metal bearing blocks to the exact tolerances is not an easy project. Ordering to have them made is not cheap.
@@antipode_ghost Exactly, not everyone has acces to lathes or milling machines. It may be that hardwood bearing blocks would help somewhat.
Can't you just use some pillow blocks, I bet you could find some that would fit.
no lol, if anything wood dampens the vibrations, the problem is the shaft is bent
I have a feeling that the belt tension under load is torquing the bearing blocks and causing the rear bearing to squeal. The front bearing acting as a fulcrum.
I really enjoy your content. It’s like visiting an old friend in his shop. 👍✌️
the wobble is within the slop. thank you for your wonderful technical analysis. i couldn't agree more!
The high axial vibration is an indicator of cocked bearings and/or misalignment. You did a nice job of reducing vibration given the machine is constructed of wood. If you set a stroboscope at the rotational speed of the cutting head you will be able to see how the bearing blocks are moving and/or if the cutting head is shuttling axially in the blocks. The line frequency vibration is referred to two time line frequency vibration or 2xLF . It’s typically very prominent on 2 pole motors operating at 60Hz (3600rpm) but can be seen in slower motors as well. Belt pass frequency is generally much lower than motor turning speed but can create problems with cutting if vibration at that frequency is severe. In addition to BPF(belt pass frequency), 1xRPM of the motor and 2xLF, the spindle rotational speed will also show up in the vibration spectra. Bearing fault frequencies are non synchronous to rotating speed. Simply calculate rotation speed of shaft by the defect fault frequency to determine if you have a defective bearing. For a 6203 bearing the outer race defect freq is 3.05xrpm. The inner race defect freq is 4.95xrpm, ball spin defect freq 1.99xrpm ( 2x ball spin can also show up) Cage defect freq 0.38xrpm . I can go on forever on this subject so I’m gonna stop now…
Are the factors calculated? From where did you get these numbers/formulas, I never saw something like this (I studied mechanical engineering). What do you work?
Don´t stop, please😀
This was excellent. The video, and the comments. Just the way it should be: useful, educational, informative, and thoughtful, respectable comments.
Say, that reminds me... I once was checking a truck engine for noises and was using a "listening stick"(?). A 1 1/4" wooden dowel about 24" long. Placed it on different components, alternator, etc... And the other end to my ear. I wasn't locating the phantom sound... My buddy pointed out a knot in the dowel that was loose enough to be able to be pushed back and forth a quarter inch. He said, "You have to turn it on!"
Now I have seen it all..a tool made out of wood removing steal bearings and it worked flawlessly!! Totally awesome!
I'm sure the bearings were paid for.
No wonder these type of machinery is so expensive, you have to consider all the different engineers involved as well as the research on the proper metals to use. Great video!
I'm from the same city as SKF, always loved bearings since I was a kid and we went there with school a couple of times. They have an awesome demo room with all kinds of bearings in sizes ranging from a few millimeters to ones you could stand inside of and run on. We where always gifted bearing keyrings, toys and stuff like that and I still have a few of them at home. Such good memories, it has definitely had an impact on my interests and nerdiness!
I have no other personal connection to them but always feel a little proud when they're mentioned by people I enjoy content from, heh.
Hope they solve or at lest help with your remaining noise problems!
You identified the resonant frequency of the belt and the motor noise. I bet you're getting some beating between those two sources as well since they're close to multiples of each other. You said something like 65hz and 120hz, so you might get especially strong periods of noise when the amplitudes build on each other. the first harmonic of 65hz is 130hz, so you would get a 10hz beat generated by that harmonic and the 120hz motor noise. Super cool series! I love how you've been making your own sensors lately.
You know your channel has had so many different kinds of videos lately and seemingly less woodworking videos. I started to joke and say you should rename your channel "The Machine Whisperer", but that distracts from the woodworking videos which is what initially drew me to your channel. Then I got to thinking and you really could rename it "The Problem Whisperer". LOL Your ability to debug and solve problems is just amazing. Great video. Keep up the good work.
wouldn't want to associate myself with mark spagnuolio in any way.
@@matthiaswandel why is that, i do not know the guy; Are you guys engaging in some kind of war or something?
Not sure if this helps, but I've noticed it's much quieter every time you turn it off.
Fascinating, all ready to use the speaker and scope method, and then immediately discover bigger issues. I imagine that's why there are curved surfaces in metal "pillow blocks" for bearings, to help cope with this kind of issue?
I really like to see your process for identifying the issue and finding a solution.
Thanks!
There are some very cool videos of people balancing DIY jet engines using the shaft rolling on pressure transducers - might be more effective and seems easier to use, although this did work.... Also, you probably need taper roller bearings as the normal ones are not designed for side loads. Greasing the bearing would probably help as they sound really dry....
What he has IS a pressure transducer. How do you think loudspeakers work?
The cylinder when rotating is actually a skipping rope. The bending moment in the center causes minor deflection, but at high speeds you end up with a huge amount of tension pulling on the bearing blocks.
Increasing the stiffness of the bearing block, adding thrust preload, and reducing effective span (by putting a contact bearing/bushing in the middle of the cylinder) can all reduce the effect.
"Shaft whip"
Agree with the solutions but in this application, how could we apply a bushing in the middle of the cylinder? How do you add thrust preload too?
@@davekavanagh7599 the shaft was likely manufactured by turning on a dead center with a lathe and a center point on one end. Use that drill hole to add a nail point that pushes on the shaft end with a simple lever and spring or rubber band. A more complex solution is to add a thrust bearing and block to the end of the shaft.
Very interesting! But i think you are chasing for metal machine-precision, with wood that is constantly warping and changing due to moisture in the air. New bearings will probably help though!
this.
no matter what type of bearing you use, be it from Turkey or Germany. if the foundation on which bearing is attached is unstable then it will wobble especially if you are using wooden foundation. use metal foundation and then precision machine it. otherwise even the new bearings will start to wobble after sometime
Besides of bearings with tighter tolerances, 2 thin pieces of rubber underneath the bearing blocks might make a considerable difference. Excellent video btw.
This may reflect as oscilation and cause cut marks.
The C3 on the bearings stands for more play than standard bearing. That's why you got so much slack.
Seems like another bearing on the long belt path would help stop the vibrations there. Maybe a tensioner pulley?
You’re just too cool man. Thanks for sharing.
matthias really working the YT algo. you should mention that you have a second channel describing the noise reduction on the blower
This world doesn't deserve Matthias' ingenuity.
Timken Bearings are about the only bearing I trust.. Have used them in automotive for many decades..
I've been a big fan for a long time now. I've always loved watching your creativity unfold in your videos as well as seeing your methods of solving common issues.
I'm curious about one thing, are you set on keeping wooden bearing housings? Why not use pillow block bearings? If there is not one available with the correct inside diameter for the shaft then I understand. Your engineering and building of this particular machine is my first memory of your channel. Wishing you and your family all the best in life.
nice example of how to troubleshoot an issue like this. sounds a lot better
I got a chance to visit SKF in Gothenburg once. It was fantastic. The displays they have, the small bearings they give as tchotchke if pretty awesome as well.
I love your videos and following your curiosity / annoyances, keep up the awesome work!
I just ordered some SKF bearings (these from Italy) for a window unit. They are beautifully quiet and seem well built.
Wooden brackets likely the source of everything, I mean everything has its tolerances based on the design and engineering but wood is notorious for not holding its tolerances, opinion though from someone who hasn't built one , obviously its amazing that you built this
That was quite the thorough investigation, and the combination of play in the bearings with crooked/non-parallel bearing seats leading to the wiggle as bad that it was actually visible by eye even without the "woodstick amplifyer" was what is a common problem with chinesium machinery. The 120 Hertz thingy was a little bit of a surprise though.
Thanks for sharing!
"The wobble is within the slop so I'll be okay."
I love this sentence.
Get a CM01B vibration sensor, it is meant for that application. I use them often for biomechanical measurements.
What do you need to use the sensor and log data like the frequencies and amplitudes?
@@Convolutedtubules a microcontroller with a decent ADC input and a PC. Or an oscilloscope with memory.
Even if you ordered sealed bearings, I suggest you carefully remove one of the seals and lubricate the bearings every once in a while. The seals will start to wear out after some time, causing some small particles and dust to start seeping into the bearing.
When i was younger, I used to ride a 50cc moped for 3 summers straight, first summer had to replace the rear wheel bearings twice (sealed). During the second year, I replaced the bearings again, and after a couple of weeks of riding, I removed one of the seals on both bearings and gave them a good clean and lubrication. Second clean and lubrication after about a 3 month period. And those bearings lasted the 2 summers I was still riding with it.
The wobble is in the slop.
Finer words have never been spoken.
Great series, looking forward to the new bearings update.
Pretty interesting indeed, Matthias! 😃
Perhaps a new pair of bearings could help... But it's weird for a new part come from factory like that as well...
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
4:10 Technical terms that sound dirty! LOL! Thanks for teaching me all the things that can go wrong here! Love this channel!
Hey Matthias you check the alignment from the two sections the bearing sit on? For me it looks like the ends of the cutter head are not straight.
The last thing I save money on are bearings. A high quality bearing cost only a little more the cheap ones... but the hold longer, less noise, less problems and less wear on other parts. But the video was entertaining as always :-)
Have you ever considered playing around with a VFD for your motor? I understand it's not necessarily needed, but for for fun and experimenting it could be fun.
No. Those things are expensive!
@@matthiaswandel You can get a 2.2Kw VFD for 100 CAD, free shipping, on Aliexpress. In case you didn't already know.
@@Mr_Wh1 I actually scored a 3hp Hitachi new with external control panel option for $80 a while back.
VFD would be cool, to set different speeds maybe or to find the least resonant frequency.
He would need to get a three phase motor. I mean, there are some VFDs that can run single phase permanent capacitor motors. But the selection is much less than what is available for three phase.
You know you are okay when your wobble is within your slob. Haha loved that phrase
Such science.... "As long as the wobble is within the slop". Love it
You 'are' The Wood Whisperer + Mr. Science all rolled up together. And like McDonald's, I'm loving it..
oh my boy @hambini is gonna love this
Bearings are one of those things that I never go generic on....always get a quality brand and save future headache.
Ball bearings should be pretensioned in axial direction to avoid rattle and prolong lifetime
Not radially? Unless it is a tapered bearing or thrust bearing. I am unsure.
@@Convolutedtubules the races of the bearing are cup shaped so pretensioning axially acts as a wedge and will remove any slip in the radial or axial directions.
@@F0XD1E exactly how you adjust the ball bearing on a traditional bicycle, either the fork bearings, or the crank bearings. You tighten them until they stop to wobble, then back off a few degrees. Same for old car wheel bearing. Timken tapered roller bearings were a game changer.
Hi Matthias, if the peaks on your graph were 120hz, then the null points where the curve crosses the X-axis should be double the number. Shouldn't they?
Peaks at 60hz, valleys at 60hz, null at 120hz. He was probably considering the valleys to also be peaks, based on the distance from zero.
5:39 suggestion, especially to younger viewers, teach yourself to probe potentially dangerous things with your non-dominant hand. It's way easier to heal a three-finger burn for six months if you don't also have to learn to write during that time.
Great way to get into more accidents also.
Well done. I enjoyed your analysis. Watch out for knockoff bearings also. I picked up some name brand bearings on a certain auction site that I am fairly certain are fakes. Now I either buy old stock from the auction site or use my local electric motor shop.
The carbides breaking plane of the anvil will make noise no matter what especially with standard clearance bearings(c3). Even a 3 ton mill sized chipping head makes a racket because of the air noise.
you could probably get a bit less noise by filling a syringe with grease and adding some to the bearing. maybe 5-10ml
The left side of the belt is oscillating more than the right side. Have you tried either an antivibrating belt or a spring loaded tensioning wheel on the left side of the belt to reduce/ change oscillation in the belt? It looks like someone is strumming the belt like a guitar.
You sir are a genuine genius!
Wouldn’t adding mass to the pulley turn it into a flywheel and balance out the 120Hz vibration?
For the modulated motor output you could try a flywheel to increase inertia, because the wooden pulley is really light, or - for extra smoothness - a dual mass flywheel.
I'd love to see a comparison before and after.
How about adding grease to the bearing shouldn’t that lower the friction noise the bearings are making but I heard that using grease instead of lubricant oil works better for noise..you should make a video about that to see if that helps out or not..I know I would like to know..
Matthias, where did you get the micro-V belt? I'm in the process of retrofitting my drill press with a treadmill motor, and I can't find a belt that long. Treadmill belts are only about 18". Thanks!
This cutter head seems pretty loud for a helical cutter. At trade school we had a grizzly planer with a helical cutter head, it was a low hum when it was on.
The noise in the jointer primarily comes from the air around the table lips, you don’t have that kind of crowding inside a planer
a speaker is not the ideal transducer to measure vibration, because it by design made to function in a frequency range. use a piezzo transduces, due to it solid state nature, it will negate any construction limitation of the speaker
Good idea using a piezo, but I think this setup is perfectly sufficient for what he's doing. Speakers are designed to function in the human hearing range of 20Hz-20kHz, I think that's more than enough when he's just ballparking the measurements anyways. If you're referring to the frequency response not being flat, I'd agree that's it's not, but again, it's close enough for this purpose.
Not sure if you saw the last video. He put a mass on the cone. So the speaker has been substantially modified. The idea is that the cone will basically not move because it has so much inertia. The speaker housing will move because he is pushing it against a rigid surface. So the voltage on the speaker output will be proportional to the movement. I don't see why this wouldn't work just fine. But maybe you know better.
@@mckenziekeith7434 oh yea i forgot
Cheaper bearings suck. The ones in the motor of my Indesit washing machine were screaming after only 18 months. My previous Bosch washing machine motor ran smoothly for 20 years.
You can reduce that torque "vibration" by adding mass to the motor shaft. e.g. a flywheel. On stepper motors, the improvement is nothing short of amazing, not sure how much of a difference it will make on a big AC motor like that, but it's probably worth trying, and it would be very interesting to see what difference it makes.
You can see the right side of the belt flapping in the breeze, like a pulled guitar string!
JFYI; from a millwright. You could've put the bearing in hot motor oil. Up to 250f and it would probably slide right on.
Steel expands roughly .001"/ 100 degrees F/inch of diameter.
fantastic analysis. Well done.
I am under the impression that holding on to this all wooden structure to mount a spinning shaft of death that also wiggles is rather unsafe and warrants beefing up the structure. (That's to put it politely) Sand bags in the base would also deaden the whole machine, you wouldfn't even need more than maybe 15 bucks of sand to see a difference.
Holy Jeebus, Matthias, I've seen you make a lot of things... this thing wants to eat your lunch!
I shoulda just left it alone. It was fine for ten years before I decided to improve it.
@@matthiaswandel I appreciate you though. I, 100%, would have gone down this same rabbit hole.
I don't know anything about this stuff but would conical bearings not perform better here? You would need to beef up the support structure, but it would be tight and square and would take a lot of force axially without vibrating.
Any updates with the new bearings?
i dont know what exact type of bearing you are using but very often it helps to preload the bearing. pushin the inner ring to one direktion and the outer ring of the bearing to the oposite direktion. this shurely will lead to a higher energy consumption but the bearings will no llonger have the ability to wobble in its tracks.
Self aligning spherical bearings, like used in desk fans and such like may be a solution, wash out the factory grease with brake cleaner and replace with a light lithium.
Remember to give them a tap with a hammer and a piece of wood near the ends of the rotor after install to settle them in and align them.
And regrease them every 10 hours of run time and they will last a very long time.
How do you get the seals off without destroying them?
@@Leadvest sharp pick.
@@Leadvest Pry them out gently with a seal pick or small flat screwdriver, and they will pop back in after.
Edit, Desk fans are usually oil lite bronze bushings, but are self aligning.
Why remove the factory fill grease? If the bearings are from a reputable manufacturer the grease inside will be of higher quality than the aftermarket one.
Is the main body of the cutter aluminum? I had just assumed it would be tool steel but I saw the balancing holes and it had the appearance of aluminum. The idea of a lighter weight metal for the spindle but then heavy carbide inserts, wouldn't this create something of a flywheel effect? Or is it forged aluminum? I guess I can't think of many other components that use a softer metal to hold the fasteners of the much faster and much heavier inserts? Aluminum threads seem to strip so easily is this not a legitimate concern?
Absolutely change those bearings
I’m curious if you’ll see any increase in RPMs after the new bearings are installed. I’m sure it would be subtle but curious to know
Mattias thank you for the video! I was eager to see the difference in power draw, will you include that in the next update?
SKF seem to be making their sealed bearings in Bulgaria, Romania and probably Turkey these days. Might want to look for NSK or NTN ones from Japan.
Any change in Current / power usage after re-alignment??
It sounds much better, and thanks for sharing such clever ways to measure harmonics and chase vibrations. I suspect new bearings will work great. After shaving down the bearing block mounting points, did you check to see that the cutter is still parallel/coplanar to the table? does that matter?
I wonder if a multi link belt would help a bit with the noise issue? It did with my old craftsman table saw!
We called that a swing press when I was a mechanic. 🤪
Did you drill holes into the cutter drum to balance it or was it like that from factory?
From the factory
I'm eager to see how the new bearings affect things.
Recording in stereo, with the other channel mounted to an photodetector (LED, resistive, etc) and marking the thing rotating would allow you to determine the phase of the vibration.