Where Did Epic Fantasy Go? with Johanna Reads
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 17 апр 2024
- Hey friends! Johanna and I will be delving into the topic of epic fantasy in today's market, the explosion of fantasy subgenres and the general reading trends. We'd love to have you in the chat to be part of the discussion!
CONNECT WITH JOHANNA:
/ @johanna_reads
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BECOME A PATRON!
/ toritalks2
BUY MY EPIC FANTASY BOOK "The Blood Stones":
www.amazon.com/dp/B0CLKZC3P9/
BUY MY DARK SUPERNATURAL FANTASY BOOK "PHASED":
www.amazon.com/dp/1937363031/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONNECT WITH ME
Goodreads: / 20841576.victoria_tecken
Instagram: / toritalks91
Twitter: / toritalks2
Website: toritecken.com/
Amazon Wishlist: www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls...
My PangoBooks: pangobooks.com/bookstore/tori... 
Развлечения
I would have imagined that the grimdark trend began and was thriving *before* Covid, and the experience of the pandemic for many readers is actually what caused a demand shift to other more comfortable and less confronting types of fantasy lit. That being said this discussion has been immensely interesting and worth the time. Thank you both.
Also there is a reason why superhero comics, and colorful fantastical comic books (and Fred Astaire type movies with rich settings and characters) were insanely popular in the Great Depression. It's a textbook case of miserable living conditions driving escapism in fiction and film. Something similar is probably happening now in fantasy. I mean "cozy fantasy" as a genre...I mean the name itself practically shouts its own justification lol
That’s a great point!
I blame the crazy profusion of sub genres on the internet. Before the web, it was nigh on impossible to find anyone else who was into your super specific weirdo interest. Now, if you’re into any obscure thing, there’s a subreddit for it. And because you CAN find any weird, specific thing immediately now, people expect every weird, specific thing to be available. And being able to potentially reach every single person in the whole world, because internet, means marketing into a weird, specific sub genre has a chance to actually reach the right audience.
Absolutely a big part of it, I totally agree.
This conversation really resonates with me because my wife and I have been going through the process of trying to traditionally publish our epic fantasy novel. We've been following query tracker closely and there is certainly lack of interest in the genre. It seems like all full requests are for romantasy, cozy fantasy, or YA fantasy. We've received feedback, and plenty of instant rejections, based solely on the word count, which is fairly standard for epic fantasy. I'm definitely seeing a bit of taste-shaping on the part of our fantasy gatekeepers and I suspect readers are going to have to start turning to indie publishing if they want new epic fantasy works, which is fine by me. Great chat. Thanks, and cheers!
Thanks so much for watching, and for sharing your experience. I definitely have heard similar frustrations from other authors, and I think oftentimes "word count" is just used as a cop-out, because as we SFF nerds know, fantasy books are usually quite a bit higher in word count generally than many other genres.
I wish you and your wife the absolute best with the publication of your novel, that's super exciting! And if you lean in to the indie sphere, I hope you find it welcoming and encouraging.
I'm in those trenches with you. I've been seeing the same issue on Query Tracker. Even agents who list they're open to epic fantasy aren't willing to receive a high word count, which, as you said, is fairly standard for the genre. As a reader, I expect epic fantasy books to be huge, and that's the type of story I want to tell. Best of luck to you and your wife with your querying!
the quality of reader has deteriorated a lot. and there's a lot of hacks out there writing the genres you mention. A sinking tide sinks all ships? Something like that. Stick to your muse and write with all your heart. That's about all we can do.
If I remember correctly Brandon Sanderson had an anecdote about when he was trying to get published the publisher told him "this type of fantasy is not popular, do you know Game of Thrones, yeah, write something like that and then come back" he said that he tried but it was not his style and I'm glad he stayed true to his strength. That is to say, sometimes publishers catch lightning in a bottle (Fourth Wing) and then we get an onslaught of the same books, and this is how they shape the taste of the public, this is why I'm turning more to indie authors, no word constraints and the author gets to tell the story THEY want to tell, not the publisher.
@@AbnerG787 yes to all of this!
A thought that someone raised while talking about this topic: Could it be that traditional publishing is burned on the long, big epic fantasy tomes and series because a few of the most popular and visible series don't seem to get finished. Will we ever get the next book in Song of Ice and Fire or in the Kingkiller chronicle? Would trad publishing still take this risk? Starting a big series that you are not sure will get finished.
I also notice from some readers that they only pick up series when they are finished to avoid starting a series that never gets finished. So would a publishers still want to dare to take the risk to start a new long series, while it might not get finished and a sizeable audience will only pick book 1 when the series is actually finished.
I definitely think this could factor in! It is harder to finish a larger series than a standalone, duology or trilogy, so I'm sure the publishers only want to take a chance for that on authors that they know are already selling.
i think the boom in subgenres can also be attributed to the role algorithms play in our lives nowadays. social media puts tags on things whether we like it or not.
Absolutely.
24:13 Brooks said it best in The Shawshank Redemption - "The world went and got itself in one big rush"
Fast forward to today and thats even more accurate than ever. The way we consume entertainment, the length of time it takes to make a payment, if it's not instant gratification people get impatient. Really sad, actually
A lot of truth in this, thank you for sharing and for watching. I agree that our culture doesn't do a very good job of slowing down and immersing in storytelling.
I think inherently epic fantasy needs to simmer with readers for the appreciation to grow. So many great books have stood the test of time and it comes down to the authors who want to write those stories having faith (such as Dr. Phillip Chase) and producing the story that pours out of them.
Truly grand stories have that in common, time is no factor. And it’s easy to look at the pitfalls of modern society (the age of instant gratification) and want stories to land on release like we see so many do. I think those incredible stories (such as red rising) benefit from timing, effort, and demand all matching up.
There are so many great stories out there and so even more so that don’t get told. And I hope as people are growing more appreciate of the analog way of things as time continues, that we humans really start producing more than we consume. Because everybody’s unique experiences have even more unique stories
Giving epic fantasy time to simmer is such a huge part of the genre, I totally agree. That's why so many fantasy series are as long as they are... the payoffs for spending that much time with the story and characters are huge.
There's a lot of "stars aligning" for industry success, for sure. Thank you so much for watching and for sharing your thoughts!
23:35 - yes those are the words i want and it is why I love Epic fantasy because the payoff is so good. I love it when all that set up and everything we invested in reading all those pages is PAID OFF!
Which is why Fool's Fate is my favourite book of all time. Why i physically jumped in the air and first pumped whilst reading Ruin and get such an adrenolin rush in reading all the Sanderlanches in Stormlight Archieve 💜📚
I'm really looking forward to getting to the rest of the series, Hobb is a brilliant writer. Payoffs are so satisfying when they're done well!
@@ToriTalks2 absolutely 💜📚
Part of the problem with fantasy is the labels and the breakdown into the endless sub-genres. When I was a kid, there was fantasy and there was science-fiction and the buyer read the back of the books to decide what to buy. Labels and the need to categorize books into sub-genres limits your readership and forces writers into boxes. Writers in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s wrote science-fiction and fantasy and there were no artificial labels hindering them.
IIRC what Janny Wurts described was basically what happens in her EMPIRE trilogy (cowritten with RE Feist) which is the only work of hers I’ve read
25:48 - 😂 can't stop commenting! Yes, so true. I had never thought about it before about this modern impatient binge watching flying through books.
I loved that Percy Jackson series was released one episode at a timd so we cluld relish the anticipation- was so gratifying to be screaming with my 9yr old "don't end there!" And have a week discussing how we think they'll do the next bit.
I know myself with TBR's i have had to tell my self to make no plans in May as I want to re-read Oathbringer (with my eyeballs) so i have tonot join in with buddy reads or get carried away by readathons etc.
We want to have read it all yesterday. There is alot on booktube now about trying to read less and take in what you are reading rather then seeing it as a tick list. So hopefully we are swinging back round to being patient and anticipating things. 💜📚
I totally agree, and I think that slower, more thoughtful approach to reading is beneficial in more ways than one!
2:54 - really interesting topic.
Epic Fantasy is my favourite too although i have not read as much. Mainly due to last year being a year of Hobb and I felt any other epic i read would be doing a diservice to it as Hobb has my heart. But now I am finished and ready to read more 💜📚
6:25 - oooh interesting as I was never sure if one was a sub genre of the other or what the distiction was or if people just used the terms interchangeably 💜📚
13:49 - hmmm i am now questioning my definitions of Epic.
I think for me the sense that this world has existed and has alot of lore and history and that the storyteller has lots of threads they are weaving and holding that all come together whilst having alot of themes we explore along the way.
Although Hobb focuses 3 of 5 series as first person Narrative within RotE Fitz's achievements is the song of minstrils and a legend in his time. The scope of storyweaving and the theme feels epic asit makes my brain go wow!!! How did all of this pull together so brilliantly.
For a more moderm Epic i feel Chorus of Dragons Fits the bill because of the layers of world building and history is so vast and immersive and again all plot threads weaving together - easily a tale of legends although again we focus on our cast of main chracters. 💜📚
Great discussion 😊 Not sure I can add much since I feel I haven’t read enough of epic fantasy - but I have loved the ones I did read. The micro /macro seems to fit.
I also don’t pay much attention to separating scifi and fantasy. To me, they are siblings, or rather kindred spirits - and I have all of mine together on my shelves 🤓
I totally agree, Vero! I think they’re just two sides of the same coin.
This was such a good discussion of epic fantasy! Sucks I missed it when it was live
I can't believe I missed the X-Men and Phased connection (were-wolverines)! Epic fantasy is such a subjective term, but you folks fleshed it out well. I was so tired of the tropes associated with "epic" stuff that I relegated them to mere historical notes in my own novel. The dragons are extinct, magic has become science, and ideology trumps heroism.
One of the awesome parts about being a writer… you can grab or leave whatever you want!
I hadn’t thought of the X-men connection either but it totally makes sense!
Nice conversation. Personally as genres go I don't pay much attention anymore. I would really wish we would transition from genres towards tags as that allows the beautiful mix and cross-overs that many contemporary works achieve. It also has the benefit that tags can be genres (epic, dark), Target audience (YA, adult), themes (war, politics, trauma), tropes (love triangle, etc) and even book characteristics like perspective or tense.
That would also be helpful! I think the subgenres are mostly for marketing, same as the tags would be, and it is super helpful finding a more specific target audience, but it can get really convoluted and overwhelming sometimes.
@@ToriTalks2 True. Usually commercial interests butcher good ideas into misguiding low quality customer experiences 😅
@@Wouter_K yeah it definitely can be misleading, especially in larger publishing.
Many booktube reviewers say Malice by John Gwynne had a pacing problem and rate it lower than the rest. In my opinion it was the best. I love those characters so much becuase i was given time with them. It is also the reaon i think John Gwynne's books since have not clicked for me. He listen to his readers when the complain about the frist book. Giving pace and the character work suffers for it. I will say though a slower pace needs to be done right In the Name of the Wind had some parts that felt like filler to ensure the author could meet his goal word count...
I loved the "sit with the characters" moments in FatF, and I think we overlook those moments in fantasy far too often.
excellent topic!!!!
Thank you!
Caught up on this 1 the next day. Great discussion.
Thanks for watching, John 💜
Genres are useful in some ways and unhelpful in others. It’s always useful to be able to categorize and describe, but it can often lead to limits and gatekeeping. Having said that, I do think there are some important distinctions between the science fiction and fantasy genres. Even though, I realize the line gets blurred when writers decide to use the tropes of one genre as the set dressing for a story that would usually be set in another genre.
I think two popular SF franchises (Star Trek and Star Wars) are great illustrations of what I see as the important differences, at least during the classic era, between a science fiction story and a fantasy story using SF as set dressing.
Star Wars is set in space with alien races and advanced technology. However, what it is about at its core is ancient knowledge, eternal truths, a fight between good and evil, trusting your feelings to know what is right and wrong, and gaining power through belief (in the force) and losing power with you experience doubt.
On the other hand, Star Trek stories involve an evolving sense of what is true, viewing right and wrong as judgments based on context, a sense that conflicts are often based on different interests rather than morality, a desire to resolve conflict through reason and debate, and a core belief that you win when you have the best answer.
Great points, and I like the explanation of it using Star Wars and Trek. That’s a great example. Thank you so much for watching.
Sorry I missed this chat, I was recording a discussion with Joe about his book Wistful Ascending.
It's funny you guys talked about this subject, because I recently talked about fantasy being in an identity crisis, meaning that we haven't seemed to move on from the Tolkien/Howard model of fantasy storytelling. It's even more frustrating when I see writers and readers of fantasy not even seeming to know or care about Tolkien and Howard's impact. They see people like Martin or Abercrombie and then copy them, without seeming to know or care who inspired them.
That's not to say we shouldn't be inspired by Tolkien or Howard, they are probably the biggest influences on modern fantasy as we know it. But we shouldn't limit ourselves to their model, as many fantasy authors have rather consciously or unconsciously. There's fantasy novels like American Gods, Perdido Street Station, and Black Leopard, Red Wolf that have shown what the fantasy genre is capable of. There's also dozens of mythologies and stories out there that could be retold in our era that we're missing out on.
One might say I'm holding on to the past too fervently, but I think it's important that authors and readers understand where the genre we love came from and how it's evolved over the years, so we can keep pushing the genre forward and take it into new directions so the next generation can enjoy them and be inspired to create their own works.
I don't want to go on too long, I already made a video on this topic.
That’s why it’s important not just to “study the masters” whom we might emulate, but to delve deeper into story structure.
Once you get into story structure and “Archetypical Life Arcs” you start realizing the scope and capability outside of a Maiden’s Arc or Hero’s Arc, and find the beauty in Queen, King, Crone, and Mage Arc that can provide massive amounts of layering on a fundamental level. And that’s not even before adding themes you wish to explore as an author.
I hope you and Joe had a good chat. Wistful Ascending is such a gem.
I agree with you that understanding and appreciating the broader scope of fantasy and where we’ve come from is a really important aspect of delving deeper into the genre. Not required for loving fantasy, but we can learn so much from knowing the history.
Hi 👋 great video 👍
Aw X-men First Class, what a wonderful film.
I’m a massive X-Men films fan 🥰 That moment between X and Magneto in First Class still gives me chills.
I just finished book six of the suneater series and I feel like this is the next sort of direction to take Epic Fantasy. I know it's not fantasy but it has so many blendings two genres that its close to it and is epic. I haven't even read all the novellas he's written set in the same universe. I know alot of Indie authors are also creating epic fantasy stories. I don't spend alot of time on social media so idk about the whole Tik tok book realm, but without that framing and traditional publishing kind of losing ground to indies, I think as fantasy fans we are living in a good time with so many options
I've heard so many good things about Sun Eater, and I think that you're on to something there for sure. Genre-blending is such an integral part of what makes fantasy so unique, and I love that it's being celebrated more now. I also agree that we're in a great time for indie and we've never had more options to fit our individual tastes.
This was a great talk
My favorite genre as well, but I would prefer more standalones. Where are writers who can craft a complete satisfying story in one take that covers the entire story arc?
"Epic" was in the title so I had to check it out. I listened to this while working. I would have loved to experience this live.
I've never defined what Epic fantasy is to me. I have only ever Identified it as a feeling while experiencing a story. If I had to categorize it, I would say it's when the world is defined in enough detail that it has it's own personality expressed through themes and ideology in relation to grander forces like cause and effect. Overarching questions with answers on a spectrum that swings as a pendulum so that it's truths are subjective to whoever reads it. It's a story that you can see the effects of the past in the world and project the future so that it feels like even if the protagonist died, the world and the story wouldn't
There is a lot more I feel it can be categorized by but that's what it is in a nutshell.
Great video.
Heck yeah! 🔥
It’s so hard to put it into words, isn’t it? I sat with it for a week trying to articulate exactly what my definition would be.
I think you put yours really well, that makes a lot of sense.
Whatever it means, I’m so glad we have it! 🥰
Ahh, I already made the same comment on two other youtubers' video on the same topic, but I've basically followed the trail to your video and I guess I'll copy-paste it here too as an offering to the algorithm.
The decline in popularity of epic fantasy has way more to do with the fact that most people would rather read 30-60 books of 200-400 pages each, written by different authors featuring different subgenres, styles, plotlines and characters, than read a decalogy of 1200-page books by the same author following the same characters and the same plot written in the same style. Also, I imagine bragging about reading 60 books a year, rather than 10 books, gets you more clout on social media. And even without the bragging factor, psychologically speaking, a person would probably feel like they've accomplished more having read a higher number of books, even if it's technically the same number of pages.
Finally, I don't think the paper-crisis and printing costs have fully resolved since the beginning of the pandemic. I imagine the trade wars with China will make that even worse, not better, as printing in China costs waaaaaaaay less for publishers all over the world. In other words, we're basically experiencing this century's version of the Great Depression and the rise of pulp fiction. And ebooks make publishers way less money than printed books, as authors get a larger share on ebook sales than on printed books for obvious reasons, so even though the existence of ebooks should theoretically nullify this, the publisher still has to consider the cost-effectiveness of what they can print. Betting their money on 20 authors of smaller standalone novels is way safer than 1 author of a chunky decalogy.
As for the difference between trad pub and indie pub, the explanation is quite simply investors. It isn't enough that an investor make back their return on money invested or even just make a profit, they have to make several times the return on the money, or else they'll invest in a whole 'nother industry with a higher profit return; sth sth late-stage capitalism sth sth. An indie author is in charge of their own creative direction and most of their costs are one-time upfront costs (outside of the percentage given to distributers with each sale), after this cost is met in sales, _any_ sale is pure profit irrespective of how many you have per year. A publishing house has to please their investors, and usually has to pay their employees by the hour irrespective of the number of sales made per year, and also has the author's and the distributers' share on top of that too, so they have to perpetually increase their profit just to be able to keep their employees and their investors from flocking away, nevermind filling the owner's own pocket.
Also also, according to S&P Global in an article titled "Private equity investments in publishing companies up in 2023", there were several crazy-numbered investment deals made in the publishing industry last year. This in theory sounds good, but in practice means a fire was basically lit under the a$$es of the publishing industry to return several times of that amount in profit or they'd go bankrupt. I think they're just minimizing as much risk and maximizing as much profit as they can. Maybe they'll drop the pressure once they make the returns, but are the number of readers going up by that much...?
Thanks for watching, and for sharing your thoughts!
I don't understand why Robert Jordan books get called a slog, but Robin Hobb books get call "great". I wish someone would give me another perspective. In relation to those two series.
I think that’s because Robert Jordan’s writing is way more repetitive and flat than Robin Hobb. But I enjoy both styles. I just think that with Robin Hobbs writing people are little bit more forgiving, because of her prose and how she establishes her characters.
It’s all in the perspective, and you’re right, sometimes one author is considered a certain style when another isn’t, and it doesn’t always make sense. Reading is such an individual experience. I would agree that Jordan and Hobb’s prose style is vastly different, but I haven’t read enough of Jordan to say more than that.
I understand that the style may be different. I trying to say that Robert Jordan in the Wheel of Time explores the "slice of life" the same as Robin Hobb does. When Robert Jordan does it it's a "slog" when Robin Hobb does the same thing it's Wonderful or brilliant. I'm trying to understand. I read Robert Jordan and loved it. I've only read one book by Robin Hobb and it didn't grab me the way Robert Jordan did. What am I missing? It's just me most likely. I just wanted to vent a little. I'm glad y'all heard me out. Thank you for listening.
@@richardadcock5450 I don’t think you’re alone at all! I have quite a few friends who are big WoT fans and would wholeheartedly agree with you. In the end, love what you love to read and heck with what anyone else says about it.
Red Rising is one of my favorite series of all time and people say it’s “just Hunger Games” all the time, which I totally disagree with. But everyone has different experiences.
@@ToriTalks2 Thank you so much.
Fantasy is still alive and well. It's a little Manga called One Piece and its is one of the most detailed and well thought out fantasy epics of our time.
One Piece definitely is bringing some epic to fantasy, I agree. But in terms of novels, the subgenres are very spread out, which is a great thing because it allows a ton of variety. But sometimes it feels that epic is getting lost in the crowd.
Im late so I may never get an answer, but what is this Donaldson essay that Johanna Reads kept referencing?
Not too late! Here’s the link:
www.stephenrdonaldson.com/EpicFantasy.pdf
I’ve always understood epic fantasy to mean the whole world or setting is at stake. Eg Harry Potter is epic fantasy. High fantasy defines the setting. Epic is an adjective like romantic
This is correct. High and Low Fantasy define a setting and Epic sets the scope. Harry Potter is Epic Low Fantasy, Stormlight is Epic High Fantasy.
I believe it was GRRM that said Sci-Fi, Fantasy and Horror live in the same house.
Absolutely 💯
I think epic are stories that take place on a world or universe scale.
I detest Star Wars being labeled Space Fantasy. Especially as it is usually used to dismiss it as not being real Science Fiction. The proper term for Star Wars is Space Opera. The Force is not magic. It is not what Merlin the Magician does. There is a difference between cosmic power and magic. There is a difference between psionic powers and magic. Magic and wizards are at best symbols in Star Wars just as the Death Star symbolizes both The Labrynth and a dragon to be slain. But in-universe the Force is either Cosmic Power or Psionics.
And when you take a more particular look there really isn't much Space Fantasy. The comic series Saga is actual Space Fantasy. The Novella The God Engines is too. For some reason people think that when you make a space movie and don;t follow the laws of physics it's "just a fantasy", using the term both loosely and literally to "win". Even Carl Sagan said of Star Wars "maybe they have an obligation to get it right." Well that's nonsense. We have these things called genres so writers can get things running about the galaxy if they see fit. That does not mean they are using "magic-tech."
Also by that logic any sf that has ftl is fantasy since it absolutly breaks the the laws of physics, people are very arbitary and inconsistant about how much you can bend reality for it to be considered "proper" scifi.
Can you have a Epic Fantasy one off?
That would be fun!
23:35 - yes those are the words i want and it is why I love Epic fantasy because the payoff is so good. I love it when all that set up and everything we invested in reading all those pages is PAID OFF!
Which is why Fool's Fate is my favourite book of all time. Why i physically jumped in the air and first pumped whilst reading Ruin and get such an adrenolin rush in reading all the Sanderlanches in Stormlight Archieve 💜📚
Epic fantasy payoffs are so good when they're done well. I cannot wait to get to the Tawny Man trilogy!